Not true.
Its as true as what Malcolm, Mitch and Bill said to me the other day. I'm only just repeating it.
Well not 10x the amount.. only 3x the amount as cable 1gbps vs fibre 1gbps costs tell us in the states
HFC is made from copper..
look at how many splits you need to cover a council area.
Its not cheap, but it would still be cheaper than any other alternative.
How the hell can you claim that when you have absolutely no idea how much it will cost to get the hardware made?
How the hell can you claim that when you have absolutely no idea how much it will cost to get the hardware made?
Cause maybe I do have an idea...
HFC is made from copper..
look at how many splits you need to cover a council area.
Pretty much a bandaid solution, really. Just patch it up and join all the copper.
I have some stuff to sell to the MTM, some string and copper cans. I'm sure its compatible and can be connected. We don't need to patent it either.
Cause maybe I do have an idea...
So what you are saying is the design has been finalised and tenders have been put out to manufacturers who have come back with quotes for a limited production run of a specialised piece of hardware?
Yet from that article we have
While NBN Co says it has proved the concept can work, it faces the problem of convincing its equipment suppliers to invest the effort into building kit for what would likely be a very limited run. Sounds very much like the equipment providers have done no such quote so any price estimate is very much a cloud cuckoo guess.
That sounds like a bargin.
I doubt it will even fetch this price. The buyers will do their due diligence and understand what they are buying.
Unlike Malcolm and team, they will buy the whole copper network unsighted and unseen.
don't we all slam don't we all
no matter which you flog the cat, the reality is you are still digging the trench out to install it whether you in fttn/hfc, fttn/vdsl, fttm/adsl, fttdp (mini fttn) or fttp/h..
no matter which dead horse you flog to install you are still digging out the earth to whatever they choose to install to make service compliant, because whatever they stuck in the earth within 5-10 years wouldn't be compliant for phone use let alone for internet use for the long term...
we really missed the make on a vdsl model on widespread deployment to deploy it today would be financial suicide.. where it is economically just to replace the whole network with foisand let consumer choose which hardware to deploy and adopt s-easian principle of deployment either router or media convertor to router..
Afraid I cant � NDA's
I ain't gonna believe it unless i see it mate, NDA or not.
That sounds like a bargin.
If your into wasting money on an obsolete network that goes nowhere sure it is :)
So that's yet another technology to support the MTM then?
Stunning.
I ain't gonna believe it unless i see it mate, NDA or not.
Scepticism is always a healthy trait to have.
Scepticism is always a healthy trait to have.
To be fair i know the importance of NDA, hell even game developers put testers under it for reasons. But i don't see a point in literally introducing more tech when our problems can be solved by tech already out right now, which is even scalable, except the government is too pig-headed to admit they are wrong and looking for all alternatives.
http://www.zdnet.com/articl
See graph at end. Not many places can get >50Mbps on FTTN...
I've attempted to put the data into some kind of sensible representation by interpolating the published range speeds across 100 users:
https://www.anony.ws/i/2016/08/31/graph-Copy.png
This is an approximation, as the raw figures aren't available, so take it with a grain of salt.
Downstream Mbps Upstream Mbps
81-100 32% 33-40 44%
61-80 24% 25-32 22%
41-60 22% 17-24 14%
21-40 18% 9-16 10%
0-20 4% 0-8 10%
or
Downstream Mbps Upstream Mbps
51-100 67% 21-40 73%
26-50 27% 6-20 23%
0-25 6% 0-5 4%
I've attempted to put the data into some kind of sensible representation
the thing that gets me is that on the figures in FTTN areas then about 6% cannot get the stated "minimum" design criteria
the grouping of bandwidth into 14 to 27 Mbps band seems to have been done to either hide the numbers who cannot achieve the stated speed or it is preparing us for a downgrade to 12 Mbps as the minimum
the totals for 51-100 also look high to me, even if the GPON and HFC numbers are included
the grouping of bandwidth into 14 to 27 Mbps band seems to have been done to either hide the numbers who cannot achieve the stated speed or it is preparing us for a downgrade to 12 Mbps as the minimum
They are layer 1 speeds and not layer 2 which is interesting enough, but consider that 100Mbps layer 1 doesn't even cover the wholesale 100/40 AVC tier as it is at layer 2.
They can afford to fully upgrade and modernise Telstra's HFC network though.....just in-time for a sell-off of assets.
With the restrictions Telstra has in its NBNCo agreements on who can own it, sell off to who?
By minimising/reducing the HFC footprint (Telstra and Optus), NBNCo can complete the HFC part of the MTM sooner.
Which will potentially enable NBNCo to sell off/divest itself of HFC Assets sooner and before the next Federal Election.
Maybe this is the prime motivation for reducing the HFC footprint in the Corporate plan last week?
CTTdp
http://www.netcommwireless.
So this takes a single HFC lead-in and splits it into four?
Will this result in diminished performance for those four dwellings?
Will this result in diminished performance for those four dwellings?
It does not create a bandwidth bottleneck.
It does not create a bandwidth bottleneck.
How does it do this though?
Running 4 connections on the 1 hfc connection will create contention � unless they are upping the contention ratios for mdu's?
Jobson Innovation Growth writes...
Running 4 connections on the 1 hfc connection will create contention � unless they are upping the contention ratios for mdu's?
The speed of 4 x VDSL2 is less than the speed of the HFC connection.
wait are you talking about fttn or skinny fibre here ?
I'm talking about the DFN � Distribution Fibre Network � the bit from the FDH/Node to the FAN/Aggregation Point.
nbn� are using a different/inferior/"cheaper" architecture for the DFN in FTTN areas than FTTP areas, even though both techs require a DFN of more or less the same capability (or at least they did prior to nbn�'s recent CTTP invention :-)).
Specifically, the FTTP FDHs are in most cases, fed by a ring of fibre with two paths back to the FAN. Should the DFN fail, service can be restored by manually re-patching the users to the alternate path to the FAN at the FDH. This allows relatively quick restoration of service, and the repair to be conducted at nbn�'s leisure. The downside of the redundant ring topology is Telstra's trunk conduits are almost always laid out in a non-redundant tree architecture, so completing the redundant link required new trenching.
The architectural differences are a trade off between reliability and serviceability � or revenue and operating cost vs initial capital cost. It actually has nothing to do with the access technologies. However nbn� has used the higher cost architecture for FTTP, and the elcheapo version for FTTN. But the architecture has nothing to do with
So please bare this in mind when we talk about the "savings" of skinny fibre. Some of it � probably most of it � is from incorporating cost cutting measures being implemented in the FTTN build into the FTTP build.
Jobson Innovation Growth writes...
How does it do this though?
Bond enough D3.1 channels, and you have more bandwidth available, than 4 x VDSL2 ports could consume.
The speed of 4 x VDSL2 is less than the speed of the HFC connection.
Revolutionary!
Jobson Innovation Growth writes...
Revolutionary!
Try not to get too carried away with this.
D3.1 is capable of gigabit speeds. You can have the 'uplink' in this cttdpu unit be capable of delivering 1gbit down, 400mbps up, give or take.
This is much much more than NBN are currently offering as a service over any of their existing CVC's. Its not like subscribers on this link will fare worse than their pure HFC or FTTN or FTTH counterparts � but if they want gigabit in 10-15 years time, then that would require a lead-in re-work.
Any other links?
Curious who the other players are.
Aethra � specialist in reverse powered 'micronodes', including claiming the first reverse powered G.Fast node.
ADTRAN � look up 508G G.fast DPU . Taht is their FTTdp model. They have single and dual models in development, including with HFC input.
Nokia and AL are also in this field.
Essentially these are reverse powered media bridges. They also need some form of standardised management to prevent the cost of administering the system from blowing out massivly. Perhaps this is where nbn are looking at their IP.
Foxtel execs must be pissed.
::Add Technicolor to the list also.
So this takes a single HFC lead-in and splits it into four?
Will this result in diminished performance for those four dwellings
So that's like ... having fttp and then running a cable from each of the 4 ports you get with fttp to 3 of your neighbours and saving one for you .??
and somehow fttp isn't better than this ?
Perhaps this is where nbn are looking at their IP.
If they are patent pending � surely the patent application would be public, no?
Anyone keen to try and search for it?
So this takes a single HFC lead-in and splits it into four?
Will this result in diminished performance for those four dwellings?
There is no requirement to split into 4. Most places have 2-4 lines per residential pit, so it could be as few as 1-2.
Of course once you add the cost of this device, the reverse powering, the R&D, training, maintainence and operational costs, FTTP is likely cheaper.
Remember this is being deployed by a man who cannot forsee the need for more than 12/1Mbps. MT.
If they are patent pending
Sounded like they hadn't finished writing up the patent yet, probably won't be online for a bit.
and was in the final stage of filing a patent for the technology.
Of course once you add the cost of this device
Probs around $2-4k price point
the reverse powering
If its implementing open-standards RPF, these units cost no more than $30. They can be integrated into a vdsl2 modem in the customer home also � so none-the-wiser.
the R&D,
Amortised in the cost of the unit
training
Plug in coax from plant to RF port. Plug in home-lines to twisted-pair lines. Plug in exchange-side, to exchange lines.
Place in pit.
Training job done, can be on a single piece of a4 paper.
maintainence and operational costs
I'd be supprised if this was even incremental over existing HFC solutions (cable modem in the home)
this is being deployed
Is it....?
Effectively, we have a taxpayer subsidised scheme to roll out brand new legacy POTS copper.
Yes I read the articles in the MSM that covered this exact issue. The absolute rage that it caused in the comments sections of the papers and the uproar in the Senate and the House of Reps when it was raised in Question Time! /s
This stupid "pay-off debt" mentality of Turnbull, Morrison and the rest of the LNP parrots is a real disease.
and much of it depends on the assertion that spending money on putting fibre to every building is spending money on US � THIS generation, that any fibre put put in over then next 10 or 15 years will be of no use to people 20 years from now ... and so they portray it as spending money and leaving a DEBT to the future generations rather than leaving them an extensive working and fully tested (by then) network ready to accept the latest modems that they can produce in the future.
Plug in coax from plant to RF port. Plug in home-lines to twisted-pair lines. Plug in exchange-side, to exchange lines.
Place in pit.
Training job done, can be on a single piece of a4 paper.
1. No exchange side lines. These are not used
2. Remember this is for where the HFC does not connect also, so there is HFC deployment/taps to add to that.
3. No plugs on the home lines. These would need to be cut/terminated per the device requirements, and the unit sealed.
4. Training for the project planners, training for installers, training for the support staff (fault diagnosis, wrong pair connected, common faults etc), training for the call centre sales and support staffboth at nbn and RSP.
I'd be supprised if this was even incremental over existing HFC solutions (cable modem in the home)
I would expect it to be at least slightly higher, as there are more parts to the solution.
Still has the disadvantages of HFC, with congestion on individual segments, higher opex than FTTP and is not a step forward towards FTTP, which even MT has acknowledged is the ultimate goal.
This may turn out to be more of a sideways step. Questionably lower cost than new HFC tails which should only be concidered an interum solution anyway.
It can certanily deliver a better result than pure FTTN though.
Not quite a bit like squeezing those last few bits of toothpaste from the tube, when what you really need is a new set of teeth.
... a lot of the public servants who wouldn't understand a full cost benefit analysis if it bit them on the posteria
So you're saying that public servants should be trained in this area of expertise?
I don't know about that. Karina, Turnbull, brown, and many others often mention wp fibre zealots.
I like the fact it rattles their cages.
It sure does matter, that's a huge chunk of lost revenue right there.
In this thread on coalition NBN/MTM policy, it's easy to spot trolls saying 'of course' ARPU from MTM will be 'about' the same as it would have been from NBN. This despite the fact that much of MTM will struggle to get above xDSL numbers, so clearly many users won't have access to the higher speed tiers. And no higher access tiers = no highest levels of revenue.
This will be completely obvious to most industry people, so much so that we might wonder just who are those trying to assert the opposite.
And when Labor was doing it, it was up to 25%, but with the "adults" in charge it's gone down and down and outside of Fibre, significantly down.
That's the 'adults' and their MSM buddies who lost no opportunity to retail untruths about a 'dire' NBN, which was going to destroy everybody's roses and cost 'thousands' to rewire every premises, etc, etc. Given that political farrago, it's hardly surprising that many people were scared off seeking early access.
So the lethal combination of a lying political campaign, and a political diktat to abort the whole of FTTP, has now resulted in fewer endusers taking up the higher tiers. Wow, what a surprise.
No, the NBN simply is not newsworthy. It's boring because (most) FTTP supporters bang on about power consumption of nodes and what resolution is best for Netflix. Totally irrelevant to most people paying off mortgages, planning for retirement or paying the rent.
Interesting theory, see what is on the main page of news.com.au:
Family with mysterious illness (five days and ongoing):
http://www.news.com
Amy Schumer nude on the Pirelli Calendar:
http://www.news.com
Airbnb host secretly films people having sex:
http://www.news.com.au/t
Secret World of overweight entrepeneurs (must be innovation):
http://www.news.
Creepy Clowns lure kids into the woods (US story, looks like the Joker of batman):
http://www.news.com.
Salim Mehajer announces he leaves Australia (temporarily unfortunately but still byeee):
http://www.news.com.a
Dr with a afterlife story (and a book to sell):
http://www.news.com.au
I can go on a bit with these kind of links which are all of the main page of news.com.au. Kingforce, can you explain to me how the above stories have more news value than NBN?
So, instead of focusing on the real possibility of taxpayer billions being thrown down the drain and the cost of living going up we all repeat the same tired FTTP vs FTTN debates.
And instead we are every day confronted with the same stories as above during the weekend and during the week it are at least four or five political correctness stories with no news value: how to raise your kids gender neutral, how to be not islamofobic (wonder if religious people approach above stories) etc etc.
Nothing about government policies. You know the policies Australians voted for at the last elections. How could that be NOT news worthy?
If Whirlpool is confused about the NBN, then there should be no expectation that the mainstream media or the rest of the public will take an interest.
The mainstream (old tree) media is only interested how they can maintain their readership while blogs (like Whirlpool) take their readership. The only thing they can do is produce such garbage as above, in the hope that a shocking or interest trigging headline pays by people clicking on it.
The mainstream media are at the end of the line. Made obsolete by true live reporting on social media and blogs. Dying a slow and well deserved death. Who puts the light out?
From memory, about 14% of NBN users are ordering 100 Mbps on fibre. Why is that?
Because they mostly only receive 6Mbps on peak hours because their providers perhaps don't monitor CVC's and consequently the bandwidth is oversold? Just a weird idea. Not? And the ACCC is fine with that? Another weird idea? Not?
FTTN however has only a little over 8% choosing a 100Mb connection (and that includes FTTB)
Why is that?
Is there some difference between the type of users that get FTTN vs FTTP that means FTTN users don't want to subscribe to a faster connection?
Or is it that FTTN connections can't deliver the services that people are willing to pay extra money for?
I am currently on a 25/5 Mbps FTTN connection.
I would willing pay for a 50/20 Mbps plan, if I could get about 90% of that in line sync
here is the maximum line rate my modems report on my line
Max Rate (Kbps) 13974 40687
remember that this is the line maximum as calculated by the modems, (both report about the same)
there is no way that I could sync at 40/13 Mbps because that number as max is without any noise component.
so there is no way I will be going 50/20, let alone paying for 100/40 when the tech cannot deliver the speeds that I would pay for.
And to add, for good measure, there are 26 more premises further away from the node, than me, that are on my copper line, some of them may even struggle to get 25/5
From memory, about 14% of NBN users are ordering 100 Mbps on fibre. Why is that?
Incompetence. Most business are quite good at selling consumers stuff they don't need (If that's how you want to view faster speeds) the fact that it has gone down since NBNco changed direction under the Liberal party's behest should tell us something and is concerning since they are supposedly more business savvy. Of course if they have a political agenda and/or have interests elsewhere I guess the interests of the taxpayer are of little concern to them. Exhibit A: On FTTH only 14% have 100mbit connections in 2016.
Current market demand for 100 Mbps fibre is not there for some reason.
The same reason, I just explained in my previous post. The short digest of it. NBN Co pretends to sell Internet access in their marketing while they do not have control over a key shared component in their network: the CVC. As a result the NBN network performs as fast or as slow as the RSPs want.
NBN Co is not able to do anything about that. The ACCC is not prepared to do something about it so we invest an immense amount of money in a network that performs to RSPs parameters and NOT to NBN Co's or our governments parameters. The whole Statement of Expectations is rubbish, the outcomes can only be achieved if the expectations are forced upon the RSPs. That is not going to happen. Ever.
The only way for NBN Co to be successful, and I stated this in a written letter to Mike Quigley when he was only appointed for a few days, is to create competition that is not dependent on the main carriers. Mike Quigley knew very well that the small and medium RSPs were the key to the success of NBN Co, hence the reason NBN Co advocated for a low amount of POIs. Sadly the main carriers had enough vested interest leverage over our independent **cough** regulator and we ended up with 121 POIs.
At that moment NBN Co's death sentence was signed. It created a dependency on the large carriers. It signed the death sentence for medium and large RSPs who did not have fibre assets (iiNet and the like). The ACCC had no other option than to allow major mergers, even if it did compromise consumer rights. If they would had refused it, it would have left millions of investors in such medium RSPs into trouble and the ACCC's failure would have been exposed immediately.
So didn't happen. Everything was allowed and the ACCC still gets in trouble now as the End Users get on a multi-billion network the same what they had before NBN Co was incorporated: a service which performs not even remotely to the maximum speed of the capabilities of the used technology. Karma is a bitch but in this instance well deserved.
At that moment NBN Co's death sentence was signed. It created a dependency on the large carriers. It signed the death sentence for medium and large RSPs who did not have fibre assets (iiNet and the like).
As usual, Frank, that's a very thoughtful, and accurate, post.
With all of the crass political background noise there has been about NBN/MTM, it can sometimes be quite difficult to see the wood for the trees, and you help everybody to keep feet firmly on the ground.
Sadly the main carriers had enough vested interest leverage over our independent **cough** regulator
How does one even lobby a Commision or influence one which takes no donations ?
Or was it political pressure forcing them to make changes.
It doesn't matter. It's still below NBN Co's expectations. Current market demand for 100 Mbps fibre is not there for some reason.
I am always amused by these type of comments. It's like saying, there is no consumer demand for a BMW car as most people are happy with their Toyota's (which drive just as well and a lot cheaper). However BMW are making money and I assume have very healthy profit margins. Why? The premium, prestige product effect. Now this can apply to broadband too. The difference between a 25/5 plan and a 100/40 plan is only $20/month more on top of a, say, $80/month plan (23% more for the premium product). However NBN do not sell a premium 100/40 product, you can't get it with consistently with FTTN and maybe not even HFC if there are too many users and also thanks to the CVC charges you end up with an unreliable 100/40.
This is NOT premium. Not for residential customers and certainly not for businesses that would rely on it.
Ironically if the MTM could deliver this reliably by doing away with FTTN (and maybe even HFC) and RSPs were upfront with their claimed speeds (workaround rather than blame the NBN CVC charges) , the few premium RSPs charging as much as $40/month more to go from 25/5 to 100/40 may be able to do quite nicely with only 15% of residential customers and be able to make even more money from business customers. And so would NBN Co. That is why you offer 100/40 speed tier, that is why you offer a 500/80 speed tier, because there are always a few people to pay $$$$ for it, and you can make a lot of money out of them (ask Foxtel, why are Platinum customers so precious to them?).
But now with more than 50% of premises on FTTN their goes half your potential client base.
How does one even lobby a Commision or influence one which takes no donations ?
Submissions which are used at every occasion. No need to pro actively lobby, one can be passive, you are asked to lobby by submission.
The process at work. This will be the winner:
http://www.computerwo
Take this statement:
"Because of the wide range of factors affecting broadband performance, including end user networking equipment, distance from the exchange, the location of content, and number of concurrent users on shared infrastructure, it is unrealistic for ISPs to accurately describe likely broadband performance on a customer-specific basis, thus making it impossible to make any precise claim about data transfer rates,� argues the CA/AMTA submission.
Why does the number of concurrent users on shared infrastructure, make it unrealistic for ISPs to accurately describe likely broadband performance on a customer-specific basis?
At any moment in time, every RSP has a clear view on the shared infrastructure. It knows its users, it knows the capacity of international and domestic transit, it knows the peering capacity, it knows the aggregation capacity and without any effort it knows when any of these resources are over utilised or are not performing as purchased. All those capacities are bought on a CIR/PIR basis. You are a network provider and at all times your core business is managing your network so your customers have the best experience.
Willingly and knowingly overselling bandwidth on this shared infrastructure to such a level that the RSP knows that the "up to speeds" can never be achieved not even remotely are likely not even mentioned in this submission. Haven't read the submission, can somebody check and tell me if I am right?
Submissions which are used at every occasion. No need to pro actively lobby, one can be passive, you are asked to lobby by submission.
Still bribery as far as i am concerned.
And i wonder how many submissions it takes to get the ear of the accc to make changes.
At that moment NBN Co's death sentence was signed
I agree completely,
'I fail to understand how the ACCC thought this was ny part of their nosiness anyway ? the nbn was supposed to be a monopoly
And i wonder how many submissions it takes to get the ear of the accc to make changes.
Depends who it is and what your interests are. If you are for example a core supplier to NBN Co, the ACCC is going on a tea party. The approach is similar if the core supplier violates Australian Consumer Law. Yes, I got the written evidence for that.
If you don't have the interests you got bad luck. You never hear anything of them. That is how they roll.
'I fail to understand how the ACCC thought this was ny part of their nosiness anyway ? the nbn was supposed to be a monopoly
I'd like to know where in their remit it it says "protect legacy business models* from technological change"!
*Fibre providers who built fibre networks to service ADSL!
With all of the crass political background noise there has been about NBN/MTM, it can sometimes be quite difficult to see the wood for the trees, and you help everybody to keep feet firmly on the ground.
I have the conclusive written evidence readily available. Already for well over a year that the practises as I described them actually occur. That evidence doesn't change, even if you are confronted with a dubious lawyer of a very large firm who lies to our company consistently while working at the same time, undisclosed and unknown to us, for a major carrier. Or if you are confronted with a ACCC who tries to save their soul by issuing another submission (into advertised speeds).
Not smart at all, for a lot of reasons and one of them is this one. It is not that this kind of behaviour is all new for me.
So what happens, after investing billions of dollars in what should have been a multi-service network, we are back at flipping discs like disc jockeys.
And the petrol and time to drive to the 'Video Store' to pick up the discs .... as well as the late fees when you forget to return them. Or "I'm sorry Sir that disc is out and is not due back until next Friday".
You mean the journos too
Yep those muppets too! [Edited in previous post]
It will most likely be before 2020 as that is when Japan is wanting to broadcast in 8K for the Olympics.
8K will take time. It's not the screens that are an issue, it's the hardware. Proper, affordable Video Cards for 4k are only just becoming available (980 Ti, 1000 series, Radeon 400 series).
That being said, I've been surprised by the uptake of 4K in the recent year, most new screens are 4K it seems, the new video card lines are also far better priced than expected. I've also been surprised about the uptake of 4K screens in laptops and other portable devices.
Try living in a house with 5 adults who all like to watch different things when they all get home from work. 25/5 is just not going to cut it. Once 4K becomes ubiquitous, 100/40 will no longer cut it.
I don't know if I should even bother with these conversations anymore because the hostility here toward people who are even neutral to tech used in NBN is somewhat pathological... BUT if you have five adults in a house I'm sure that they can scrape enough out of the household kitty for a 100/40? Seem fair, yeah?
We already have 4K phones, DSLRs, camcorders and YouTube videos.
And anyway, that is all beside the point. It's about the wasted opportunity, the tens of billions of dollars, the next 100 years, etc etc etc etc...
It was the perfect opportunity to get away from the unconscionable activities of Telstra, to take part in the digital economy, to reduce carbon emissions, to limit the brain-drain, to increase revenue across the board to provide for better services where they are needed most and not wasted on things which can be obviated by high-speed broadband, and etc etc... And the bastards blew it, so they could line their own pockets instead of build the nation's prosperity.
With apologies to all the real muppets out there. One of my favourite shows in the 70's and 80's. ...... What do you mean the muppets weren't real! Of course they were real!
Kermit: apology accepted. When I look at these fibre to the node cabinets, it's not easy to be green.
Epic battle over NBN press release between tailgaters, Keisler, Lynch and Colley Tailgator ?@Tailgator1
U T C, please point us to this press release that I re-wrote. (reluctantly edited from the more barbed response that I wrote that the WP mods disallowed)
People are willing to pay for it but they just cannot get it.
How do you reach that conclusion? Depends on the size of your wallet but aside from that I don't see anything stopping anyone buying all the access they want if they're happy to employ private fibre contractors and back haul suppliers.
100/40? Seem fair, yeah?
Someone pays for 100/40 tier on FTTN. Doesn't get anywhere near it due to distance from node, congestion etc.
Seem fair? Na.
Lights off .... Lights on ..... Lights off .... Lights on.
LAST DRINKS!
Epic battle over NBN press release between tailgaters, Keisler, Lynch and Colley Tailgator ?@Tailgator1
You also forgot this tweet from Geoff in your selective little timeline:
Depends on the size of your wallet but aside from that I don't see anything stopping anyone buying all the access they want if they're happy to employ private fibre contractors and back haul suppliers.
Are you for real?
Someone pays for 100/40 tier on FTTN. Doesn't get anywhere near it due to distance from node, congestion etc.
That's a different question altogether. And it's purely speculation. This takes in a lot of difficult questions that are completely neutral to last mile tech such as how much your ISP provisions in terms of CVC and so on.
I do agree with you if you're saying that this is a problem because you only have to guarantee an extra 1Mbps to qualify for the next speed tier (this is something that has to be looked at). But as far as distance from the node is concerned the universal distance sought is not much different to TLS's original plan of about 1.1km. Whether this actually results in fair speeds is still unknown.
Are you for real?
Yes. Totally for real. 100%. Corporations do it all the time. There's nothing stopping anyone doing the same at a private level.
There's nothing stopping anyone doing the same at a private level.
Remind me how much you personally paid for that high quality bitumen road from the motorway to your door. Or the water pipes. Or the sewerage. Or the Electrical lines.
I don't see how that is possible, higher tiers were paying more per month for exactly the same physical connection. The connection is the same, higher users just pay more per month for it, the only difference is a setting in the modem. And the RSP probably has to pay more CVC to service them.
He was just saying it wasn't in the model.
He was just saying it wasn't in the model.
He mightn't but Quigley did. Who led nbn during the design phase?? Who modelled the economics?
And it's purely speculation. This takes in a lot of difficult questions that are completely neutral to last mile tech
Balderdash. Primary inhibitor of access to high speed internet will be the last mile tech. No speculation required #nodelotto #OperationClusterflap
Remind me how much you personally paid for that high quality bitumen road from the motorway to your door. Or the water pipes. Or the sewerage. Or the Electrical lines.
Just grabbing my Rego cert.... $512 (road wasn't that high quality either I'm afraid)
Water not sure because I'm in an apartment block (same for sewage)
And electricity was in the vicinity of $350 last qtr.
But in the latter cases, at least, you're talking about infrastructure that is a bit less than elastic in terms of value delivered to the consumer. And the infrastructure can have a direct result in terms of the productive income and the entertainment value the consumer derives from it. This is where it gets tricky.
Without electricity at a residential level we have risks of health problems so we need to consider these providers natural monopolies; same for water obviously. I don't agree that the same the case can be made for broadband just yet.
In any case, with something like water there's no prevarication about the quality and flow of the water in most cases. That won't be the case with RSPs. Same analogy applies to energy suppliers.
So anyway, do you feel adequately reminded that BB is NOT the stuff that is life support?
Balderdash. Primary inhibitor of access to high speed internet will be the last mile tech. No speculation required #nodelotto #OperationClusterflap
*cough* CVC
Point is that the RSPs are the reason that there isn't a great take up of the higher tier plans, this is largely due to the inadequacies of the technology.
Just pick this one out, I think the rest of your story is at large what I hear and experience.
The RSPs are not the reason. The RSPs talking (potential) customers into lower speed plans is a result, not a cause. It is the result of the MTM-policy.
The Australian Consumer Law does not allow RSPs to make misleading and deceptive representations. As the Contractual Agreement is between the consumer and the RSP, the RSP is at risk selling something that can not even remotely perform. The RSPs are not going to take that legal risk because NBN Co likes to sprout that FTTN is the best thing on Earth in broadband performance. It is easy for NBN Co to state, they are not at risk, they are not in a consumer contract. Neither are the LNP politicians who sprout the same. Or our *cough* independent "i can copy a press release" journalists.
You get my point?
Those at risk are the RSPs. The RSPs are at risk of poor government policy. If one consumer takes tomorrow the decision to take a RSP to Court rather than the TIO, and his lawyer starts to argue on the Australian Consumer Law, hell brakes out. If then the wife of that lawyer likes a new mansion at a Sydney bay and the lawyer sees potential for a class action, the RSP has a massive problem.
The solution is simple, they "force" you on the lower speed. Less risk for them. But the real reason is NBN and the LNP government. If the last-mile is not fast enough, it is no use of even discussing bandwidth capacity on shared resources (CVC's, aggregation, peering and IP transit). A connection is just as fast as the slowest part of the connection.
Did they stop the roll-out because of that? No.
2013 � 5% 100mbps users
2014 � 10% 100mbps users
2015 � 15% 100mbps users
NBN
2013 � 25% 100mbps users
2014 � 20% 100mbps users
2015 � 18% 100mbps users
2016 � 14% 100mbps users
Well if you stand on your head it looks okay....
asked me if I wanted a cup of tea, he was half way out the door when his computer logged in and finished downloading the antivirus updates that had taken 5 to 10 minutes every day when he first logged into his computer, so much so that he always went to make tea when he logged in ;)
Buy and fit an SSD drive in his PC for his birthday. He'll never have time for a cup of tea ever again. ;)
And where are these people??? Not on here, telling us how good or bad it is.
1 suburb which connections only started a week ago, probably have no customers to even comment on it yet ;)
Well if you stand on your head it looks okay....
I think part of the problem here is that the fastest take up was amongst power users, now as more users are connected as their areas are disconnected the balance is changing.
I don't think so as it's not like the rollout is finished and everywhere is past 18 months forcing everyone on. � of people still don't have access to the NBN/MTM and a lot of the power users are in that � since the original FTTP deployment didn't target those users/areas.
And it was slowly increasing to that 25% mark in June 2013 during which we had the asbestos problem and then the LNP took over and all it's done since then is go down and down and if the current FTTN figures are any indication will go significantly down still.
Kingforce, Genetically Modified Zealot, NBN PR or Social Media Contractors, what does the below tell you about speed tiers and the NBN?
So he got in the Telstra business rep for the area
"So we will put you on the 25/5 plan"
I interjected, " No we really want to get the best possible connection and will work down from 100/40"
he replied "from my experience the absolute most you want to go for is 50/20 because we just cannot guarantee we can supply anywhere near 100/40"
So even with someone who knew the potential for not achieving the plan you asked for, and still wanted to try for a best case outcome and work down the plans from there. And they were far from keen.
so I don't find it surprising that a lot of people are on 25/5 and I also don't think it is a reflection of what people want or need from their connections.
the RSPs are the reason that there isn't a great take up of the higher tier plans, this is largely due to the inadequacies of the technology. CVC and the number of POIs are issues, but that's largely something that can be overcome with the flick of a switch.
I think part of the problem here is that the fastest take up was amongst power users, now as more users are connected as their areas are disconnected the balance is changing.
I personally do not see any reason why you wish to have 100Mbps on a FTTN service. You know performance will be an issue except in those circumstances that you can see the node from the window of your house. Indeed perhaps power users are prepared to pay the difference to get an extra 20Mbps on top of their 50Mbps. If the RSPs then start to discourage people in signing up for higher speeds, most non technical people will save their pennies.
I was myself was discouraged on two occasions by Telstra and Optus to not sign up for 50/20Mbps on Fixed-Wireless as I was told it could not be reached in speed. Fact was that I already knew through Skymesh that my speed was near maximum. Optus was a drama. Full stop. Speeds dropped like a brick late afternoon and evening. Internode same story. Telstra speeds are equal to Skymesh. Almost maximum speed.
That was the advantage of NBNv1, you knew where the problem was as consumer, it was always the RSP. I am still in that privileged position which I much appreciate. With NBNv2, you never know where or what the problem is. Perhaps that is the whole reason why we got the MTM-policy?
I don't think so as it's not like the rollout is finished and everywhere is past 18 months forcing everyone on. � of people still don't have access to the NBN/MTM
Unfortunately you are not quite correct. With the ever changing goal posts for the nbn, and the extreme use of politicispeak, I would not be surprised if they declare it as finished today.
The reason: Skymuster covers 100% of the continent, it is just a matter of time before they realise this and just say everyone can get nbn. After all isnt wireless the future?
I wont use sarcasm tags because I expect this to be the final end game for when the money runs out.
I knew that recent troll-talk of whirlpoolians not being able to persuade, even if their life depended on it, was a load of bull.
FRANKly, your words are oh so much more than persuasive. If only you weren't a bloke and married. Sigh.
The RSPs are not the reason. The RSPs talking (potential) customers into lower speed plans is a result, not a cause. It is the result of the MTM-policy.
the real reason is NBN and the LNP government. If the last-mile is not fast enough, it is no use of even discussing bandwidth capacity on shared resources (CVC's, aggregation, peering and IP transit). A connection is just as fast as the slowest part of the connection.
I wont use sarcasm tags because I expect this to be the final end game for when the money runs out.
but it costs them more to connect people to sat than to other services they claim.
It sure would take a total bullshit artist (not sure Mal is that good) to claim, and get away with it, that the nbn� is completed as the Sats cover all Austrlaia, but no, you cannot connect
I would not be surprised if they declare it as finished today.
They most definitely will try. However their declaration will be miles away from that what most people experience.
Skymuster covers 100% of the continent, it is just a matter of time before they realise this and just say everyone can get nbn.
Nice you grab Skymuster as example. Now already insufficient, as bigger volume allocations are expected by the consumers. How are we going to do that by 2020, shoot another few satellites up in space?
After all isnt wireless the future?
Nah, never.
I've been on the MTM for 5 months now 25/5 tier which yields 23.7 Mb/s @ 4.78 Mb/s speeds respectively for the majority of the day. Peak periods arrive with the usual consequences down to under 1 MB/s D.L.
Given the right stars align, the weather co-operates and I pay homage to the relevant deity my line is capable of 37 Mb/s.
My current usage would justify going on a 50/20 plan however I would be more than happy to pay for a 100/40 connection. Issue number one � virtually no R.S.P.s offer 50/20. Problem number 2 � Why would anyone in their right mind shell out for a 100/40 plan knowing those speeds are impossible to achieve?
Now Mr. Morrow, ask why top tier plans aren't popular with FTTN customers.
Skymuster covers 100% of the continent, it is just a matter of time before they realise this and just say everyone can get nbn. After all isnt wireless the future?
I expect this to be the final end game for when the money runs out.
I'll raise you on this prediction.
Why not NBN get Telstra, Optus and Vodafone to wholesale NBNCo some Mobile Broadband 4G/LTE.
Then NBNCo can wholesale it back to any RSP that wants it for fixed line NBN use only on some SIM card that only works on a specially designed modem that accepts only this NBN supplied (via your NBN RSP) Sim card.
Voila, another form of NBN Fixed Wireless via the Mobile broadband Networks that will enable NBNCo to say that the NBN is complete, sooner rather than later.
I think part of the problem here is that the fastest take up was amongst power users, now as more users are connected as their areas are disconnected the balance is changing.
complete conjecture, You might as well say
"I think part of the problem here is that the measuring equipment has only just been calibrated properly, 3 or 4 years ago it was so far out that it had minus figures showing up as 20%
its plain what the issue is, its been laid out time and time again.
sticking your fingers in your ears and going llalalalalalalala will not change the facts.
personally do not see any reason why you wish to have 100Mbps on a FTTN service
because a business wants the biggest upload and frankly if it got 40/40 for the price of 100/40 it would still be better than paying for 50/20 and getting 40/20
I personally do not see any reason why you wish to have 100Mbps on a FTTN service.
That was the advantage of NBNv1, you knew where the problem was as consumer, it was always the RSP. I am still in that privileged position which I much appreciate. With NBNv2, you never know where or what the problem is.
Having been mucked around with my ADSL connection on who as to blame (although I must say Internode at the time were really, really helpful) I saw this as a major selling point of NBN mark I. KISS, KISS, KISS.
Oh and few hugs for you guys as well.
Either NBNCo website is wrong or out of date, and there are valid and legal exceptions to the 18 months switch period, or the letter claimedly received by the poster's sister is going to get someone in big trouble.
Or perhaps Optus is wanting to fast track the payment from NBN Co and are withdrawing their retail product?
What would be interesting is knowing what would happened if an end user switch over to another RSP?
I think part of the problem here is that the fastest take up was amongst power users, now as more users are connected as their areas are disconnected the balance is changing.
iirc this is what Mike Quigley said back then. High speeds were taken up by early adopters but overall they were tracking towards the forecast.
I think the issue now is that we're no longer tracking toward the forecast. Take up of 25Mbps services is higher than forecast and take up of 12Mbps is lower. Take up of 50Mbps+ services is now well below forecast and getting worse.
As Frank says, a lot of this is likely down to RSPs not wanting to take the risk of selling speeds the MTM cannot deliver and suffering the inevitable customer blow back. I still think CVC management is also an issue but that's just my particular hobby horse :)
God damnit i want to punch Turnbull Morrow and Fifield all the more now. 2 days ago our net just when from stable to disconnecting more than 3 times a freaking day! Granted there are people with worse situations at this with low speeds than me but 8mbps is slow enough for a power user and know our connection has suddenly become unstable. Currently on the phone ringing Telstra now and i know the flapping responses im going to get.
1. Have you turned it off and on again?
2. Are all your phone ports disconnected?
3. I'm sorry i can't help you the only thing we can do is change some noise line profile bullshit so it lowers your speed but becomes stable.
God flapping help Australia with this bullshit.
*rant over*
Sigh i am just so god damn mad with this country. How are people so freaking stupid they only see the short sighted things? Granted it's good to take 1 step at atime with life and plans but not with a freaking big infrastructure change like this...
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
NBN Fraudband has to rate currently as one of the biggest mass cons in the world rankings of Cons
I can't think of anything bigger..
For the benefit of Nokia's European and US guests, Morrow explained the provenance of NBN and its shift in its strategy from Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) to the Multi-Technology Mix (MTM), following the change in Australia's government after the 2013 election. He then went on to explain the mix of technologies involved in the build and the expected role of each.
Don't think Nokia's guests would required an explanation as is suggested. Nokia happens to sell something that NBN Co likes to use to sprout that FTTN is the best broadband solution on Earth.
Not very balanced reporting there, the writer obfuscates deliberately these interests and not one time it is mention in the article that Nokia is the technology partner of NBN Co for XG-Fast. Dirty reporting, no other words for it. Gets worse though at the end.
Increasing availability of NBN services has exacerbated the issue. In most cases, current ADSL subscribers have signed on for a so-called "best effort" service meaning that they tolerate whatever broadband speed their ISP can provide.
Incorrect, they are not sold a "best effort" service, they are sold a service with a "up to speed". If this speed is not achievable not even remotely by overselling of bandwidth on a shared network component, the ISP is engaging in misleading and deceptive representations.
Under DSL technologies (including ADSL and FTTN), this practise is obfuscated by the copper in the last miles. On FTTP this is not the case.
The "Best effort" excuse is not some sort of exit clause in a Contract Agreement so that RSPs can willingly and knowingly oversell bandwidth on shared network components to violate the Australian Consumer Law on section 18 towards the consumer. You are not allowed to draft clauses into a Contract Agreement that allow breaches of Law.
Really got the impression that the journalist attempts to justify the speed issues on FTTN by importing the poor practises of ADSL. Not good.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
one of the biggest mass cons in the world rankings of Cons
My Con 'O' Meter is going off the charts alright, it's even putting NBN right at the top compared to the Gimmicks and cons that Comcast and Time Warner cable pull on people.
Edit
NBN Co likes to use to sprout that FTTN is the best broadband solution on Earth.
The only people falling for that sorry bit of an excuse are those who don't follow technology well and those who don't really follow NBN oh and we can't forget the people who always will go with the cheaper option compared to the perhaps expensive but more worth it option in the long run.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
NBN Co is taking �tortuous route� towards building its network with �band aid solutions� being applied via its multi-technology mix (MTM) approach, according to telecoms commentator Paul Budde.
Budde asked: �Why not do it right the first time with a proper FTTH network?�
�It looks as though we are doing it the long way round, going from DSL to FTTN then G.Fast, FTTdp followed by XG.Fast, and then most likely to FTTH,� he said.
Summing up, Budde said it would be �reasonable� for people to ask why the NBN rollout was carried out via this �tortuous route�.
All of which can still be done in a paper form. I have a paper Census form right here. It's not ideal but it doesn't equate to water, electricity and roads in a hierarchy of needs. And anyway none of those need a Gbps.
You need to go back to school, really as a tech journalist you have a hard time comprehending things. To get it straight, the internet is deemed globally as essential infrastructure for the 21st century.
Those things I have listed, Medicare, Centerlink, ATO request that people do things online now. One day I went into Medicare their system was down, I wanted to lodge a paper claim. They said no, wait for their shit system to come back up and lodge it over the internet.
I can tell you, the government offices will not cope if people went back to paper. They have downsized and moved everything to online systems. The censis is a joke, whether you used a paper system or not.
If your going to put it that infrastructure is not essential.
You might as well just say we need water, food and shelter. Everything else in modern day society is irrelevant to your primitive survival.
All of which can still be done in a paper form. I
Can be yes, but medicare and especially centrelink will simply ignore paperwork and sit you at one of their computer terminals.. They have severely slashed staffing at centrelink and want you to do almost everything online now.
They have severely slashed staffing at centrelink and want you to do almost everything online now.
Or spend 2-3 hours on hold, before the phone call mysteriously drops...
Or spend 2-3 hours on hold, before the phone call mysteriously drops...
When i had to update identity , income and assets for my Aged Pension recently, i took all 17 pages down to Centrelink Office and they told me to take it home and upload via their App or do it online..
i took all 17 pages down to Centrelink Office and they told me to take it home and upload via their App or do it online..
I know what you mean, Ive been updating peoples income streams lately with their OTAC code. Out of four clients the website has crashed three times on me, forcing a call to centrelink just to get a new code. Thankfully it generally only takes a few tries before you find a person who can help.
But we digress...
As a gesture of goodwill the government could take all the NBN costs onto the balance sheet and start taxing us to pay it back and then internet service costs could immediately fall, because CVC and AVC would only need to cover Opex, not Capex too.
Except taking a tax hit or paying an 'internet levy' isn't my idea of a gesture of goodwill.
Eamonn, even before, my goodwill proposals are taken into account, who do you think is going to take the tax hit and pay the internet levy's because the the MTM has blown out in costs by over $20B and is going to be worth >$20B less than what it cost when it comes to selling it or privatising it?
How and when do you think the LNP should and will account and pay for these looming losses?
Surely they've got little choice but to take these huge losses onto the Federal Government balance sheet and start taxing us more to pay them back?
Really got the impression that the journalist attempts to justify the speed issues on FTTN by importing the poor practises of ADSL. Not good.
I was more concerned with the statement by Morrow that:
"We're not going to tell the retailers how to do their jobs � that would be out of line for us � but we are going to start to put more information out there saying that people have a choice. You have a choice, if you live here in Australia, of speeds much higher than 25Mbps. So, you decide and we're going to give (consumers) some examples like 'well, if you're family is this size and you have this kind of consumption behaviour then you're probably going to want maybe a 25 or maybe a 50 or even a 100Mbps service'. So that awareness will start to happen," Morrow said.
It is well established if you read Whirlpool that in fact the NBN Co cannot provide an consumer acceptable high speed broadband using FTTN to all those that want it. It clearly shows that NBN Co cannot provide all consumers with the services that would allow even 50Mbps download. Accordingly one has to question the veracity and moral integrity of that claim.
The problems with speed claims is the subject of a Consultation by the ACCC (https://consultation.accc.go
... and is going to be worth >$20B less than what it cost when it comes to selling it or privatising it?
aiui they don't have to bring that onto the budget until it actually happens, ie. when they try to privatise the NBNCo. I think a bigger problem when it comes to privatisation will be finding someone who will buy it.
How and when do you think the LNP should and will account and pay for these looming losses?
As long as the NBNCo is forecast to deliver a return that is higher than the bond rate, the government will claim it is an investment. The problem will come when the MTM is complete and the reality of the low return kicks in or the bond rate rises. Whenever that happens, Turnbull will get the blame.
Turnbull will get the blame.
By then there will be a new labor government in power, and it will be all Labor's fault.
I think a bigger problem when it comes to privatisation will be finding someone who will buy it.
Nahhh Telstra will take it off the LNP's hands at a bargain price. It's better if the NBN is in private hands (according to the gospel of the LNP).
By then there will be a new labor government in power, and it will be all Labor's fault.
The Labor Party doesn't need to get back into power for it to be all Labor's fault. The LNP can stretch that argument on and on for ever.
All of which can still be done in a paper form. I have a paper Census form right here. It's not ideal but it doesn't equate to water, electricity and roads in a hierarchy of needs.
lol seriously, you are showing your true colours so clearly now, its clear that you think that you can somehow "win" the argument on semantics, that you are 'cleverly' scoring points. You probably even think you are being unbearably reasonable (you're not)
Can I just point out that the year is 2016 and you have the good fortune to live in a first world country that is relatively wealthy.
There is no concern about not having water or food or even shelter and electricity. Even in the worst environments the nation has endured and nature can throw at it (bushfires, cyclones, floods)
no one starved, no one died of thirst, sure people whinged that they didn't have enough electricity to charge their phones, but then again a lot of them went out and brought little generators, so even electricity was mobile and available.
We don't have those worries here, we have already been there and sorted that all out, those are a given.
Hell if we had stopped at water and food as the only essential things we needed you don't "need" electricity to survive eh ?
But we're not a third world country that doesn't have basic things like water supply, waste removal, for us to continue to improve the quality of life our essential infrastructure also includes roads, electricity, health, rail, communications.
Communications is essential for us to keep moving forward, or moving at all. how long would your livelihood survive going back to paper like you seem so keen on ? even a really good tech journo would have nothing to write about and nothing to do with the writing once it was written, no one to contact other that hopping on your horse to deliver it ?
a communications network has been used to teach kids in remote locations, to get help where it is required and to do commerce.
what the hell was the CSG for if communications are not essential infrastructure.
When third world countries start to get their act together, they begin installing things like water supply, waste disposal. only the rich people get it first, sometimes the poorer people are left a long long time getting water from a distant node .. err I mean well But that's ok right. they don't need anymore water than 2 buckets a day.
I looked up where the word idiot came from, it derives from the Greek ???????, idi?t?s meaning "person lacking professional skill" I think it applies here.
As long as the NBNCo is forecast to deliver a return that is higher than the bond rate, the government will claim it is an investment
seriously, who would buy bonds in nbn ?? we have seen what this governments promises are worth, which is actually more than these bonds would be worth but that's not saying much.
These bonds wont even return your outlay, its impossible that they ever could.
seriously, who would buy bonds in nbn ??
No one. The government is selling bonds to raise their equity stake. The bonds are Australian government bonds. We're in the deep brown smelly if people stop buying those.
Soon I will be able to tell my mates that thanks to the Coalition I can finally enjoy the EXACT SAME speeds I've had for the last 5 years, for the EXACT SAME price!
Quiet pointy head! [imitating the scene in Oliver Twist]..."You want MORE??????????????????????"
I hope we're not talking at cross purposes here.
You're changing the context of the discussion which was originally from yourself comparing NBN end user consumers to employ private fibre contractors and back haul suppliers. I personally see that as a common trend in this thread and can understand some of the frustration that is being shown, where facts and references and provided in the discussion but they are ignored and the discussion shifted elsewhere. Frank had some good feedback on this on page 42.
I think a bigger problem when it comes to privatisation will be finding someone who will buy it.
It's not normally the issue to find someone to buy it, more what someone will pay for it :)
All of which can still be done in a paper form. I have a paper Census form right here. It's not ideal but it doesn't equate to water, electricity and roads in a hierarchy of needs. And anyway none of those need a Gbps.
Oh yeah Einstein.
Tell all of the above to the law firm that has to get expert witness comments on photos to them by tomorrow.
Or the software developer who has to upload product.
Or the media person who's taken a stack of video footage.
I don't want to say it. But you are a Luddite.
p.s If you are going to read Maslow please understand it first.
No, a distribution point services 2-4 premises
One thing to be wary of with FTTdp ... When we talk about it here it is 2-4 premises from the pit/pole outside. When the NBNCo talks about FTTdp they might be talking about 48 premises at 100-200 metres. That's closer to being a mini-node imo. They really are a deceptive bunch.
pretty sure when the nbn first mentioned fttdp they described it as "pushing fibre closer to the premises the with the distribution point in the name referring to the individual junction box in the telecommunications pit in the street outside each property"
but whatever its not going to get rolled out anyway its just more smoke and mirrors to keep people distracted until they have rolled out fttn everywhere
Does NBN Co rollout map tell you whether you are getting FTTN ot FTTP? (This relates to something discussed above)
If not, how did you find out?
http://www.nbnco.com.au/lear
The table baked into the above page (not the downloadable 3 year plan linked from the same page)
has a column called anticipated technology, with either FTTP, FTTN (FTTN or FTTB), Fixed Wireless or HFC as the options. Things will get interesting when/if they split out FTTB from FTTN, and add in FttDp, HFCttVDSL, XGFast, GFast, 5GttVDSL, FibrettGnome & SpiderttN.
* The Three Year Construction Plan (the Plan) does not include premises that are already completed, in-build or covered by satellite, or new developments. nbn intends to update this information quarterly to include new areas and reflect ongoing variations arising from the planning process.
Good to see that NBNCo is still reporting that nbn intends to update this information quarterly
Not good to see that this info is still missing
1. Construction end dates (only has first site construction start dates)
2. First and last RFS dates.
3. Copper & HFC network switch off dates
The table baked into the above page (not the downloadable 3 year plan linked from the same page)
has a column called anticipated technology, with either FTTP, FTTN (FTTN or FTTB), Fixed Wireless or HFC as the options. Things will get interesting when/if they split out FTTB from FTTN, and add in FttDp, HFCttVDSL, XGFast, GFast, 5GttVDSL, FibrettGnome & SpiderttN.
again hoping that this is incorrect information on their page, as it says my area is expect to use fttn, finder also says this. but I have had an nbnco box and fibre pulled to it for 4 months now, I'm still not RFS for another month or two depending on which guesstimate you go by. When I call RSPs they also tell me I am going to be on FTTN.
So basically the answer is, that you cant find out anywhere what technology you are on but that its likely to be fttn
When the NBNCo talks about FTTdp they might be talking about 48 premises at 100-200 metres. That's closer to being a mini-node imo. They really are a deceptive bunch.
Up to 500m in low density depending on frontages and copper direction. More like what is referred to elsewhere as Fibre to the Street. They'll have a good spin on it though like you said.
Weasel words.
The table baked into the above page ...
Thanks. That says we're getting upgraded Optus HFC, which is a relief. I thought the problems they've had might have left us with FTTN.
I have had an nbnco box and fibre pulled to it for 4 months now, I'm still not RFS for another month or two depending on which guesstimate you go by. When I call RSPs they also tell me I am going to be on FTTN.
Unfortunately, it sounds like the partial FTTP construction has been abandoned.
Looking on the bright side, the cost of any Technology Choice change from FTTN to FTTP should be reduced and the time to build quicker because you already have a fibre lead in and FTTP "box" installed on the side of your premise. Just how back into the Network your FTTP lead in goes will likely influence how much they will quote you for any Technology change to FTTP.
Happy to consider chipping in some $ to assist fund any Technology Choice quote you request from NBNCo.
Many months later, they were re-added as "fixed line"
Or in some other cases, fixed wireless.
says we're getting upgraded Optus HFC, which is a relief. I thought the problems they've had might have left us with FTTN.
Not so fast.
Since the 3rd column of the http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn
Or it is only a 2 year construction plan, as there are no construction dates listed beyond H2 2018 (in 2 years time).
Can anyone be bothered to reconcile the table with the downloadable Sep 2015 plan linked on the same page
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
Good to see that NBNCo is still reporting that nbn intends to update this information quarterly
It falls in line with the long running NBNCo communications strategy, which is to suffocate discussion on the NBN and stick to the government narrative. One of the entire purpose of the AFP Raids was to do this and they achieved it.
Plans aren't updated, data isn't available about the network, FOI's are nearly always refused and then just watch the Senate. If our own elected members can't get answers, how can we the public. And then they'll spin it all away, very reminiscent of Telstra (and not surprising)
It's gone into the Marge Simpson strategy.
Listen to your mother, kids. Aim low. Aim so low mno one will even care if you succeed
And no one will, probably even if it utterly fails. Sad.
I knew that recent troll-talk of whirlpoolians not being able to persuade, even if their life depended on it, was a load of bull.
The goal is a return to a full fibre NBN. During the election, WP couldn't persuade the public to change direction. There's no point blaming the media for that.
That's what I was trying to say.
There's no point blaming the media for that.
Bullshit. We can most certainly blame the media for that. Nick Ross ring a bell to you Kingy or did we conveniently forget his name?
The goal is a return to a full fibre NBN.
So why support Turnbull and his MTM? It clearly isnt a return to it, stop lying to yourself.
It's gone into the Marge Simpson strategy.
Listen to your mother, kids. Aim low. Aim so low mno one will even care if you succeed
And no one will, probably even if it utterly fails. Sad.
The party to celebrate the milestone of the politically deemed completion of the NBN/MTM, will likely be about as much fun as the LNP's Federal Election HQ party on Election night 2016.
There's no point blaming the media for that.
Why not, how much media attention did the NBN get during the election? No matter how hard Labor tried, the media just weren't interested.
That's what I was trying to say.
The goal is a return to a full fibre NBN. During the election, WP couldn't persuade the public to change direction. There's no point blaming the media for that.
Thanks for elaborating and clarifying your comment.
There is an alternative, the ACCC could also issue direction to NBN Co that the CVC pricing is in fact the reason why users aren't getting what they pay for and force a lowering in costs.
The ACCC approved the SAU so I don't know how the regulator could force a lowering in costs.
Can anyone be bothered to reconcile the table with the downloadable Sep 2015 plan linked on the same page
I can confirm that that says HFC for this area (Frankston South) too. Also, Mr Mac found some info where the naming standard matched that of HFC areas. We're in 'build commenced'.
Not so fast.
I'm going to breathe a sigh of relief :)
So basically the answer is, that you cant find out anywhere what technology you are on but that its likely to be fttn
And it will not allow this scenario that they are promoting on their web site to be at all possible 8k tv but make out it is.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/blog
Outright fraudulent deceptive advertising to the max.
I don't know how the regulator could force a lowering in costs.
Careful using cost and price interchangeably. The of the CVC is the same for nbn no mater what they price it at.
It clearly isnt a return to it, stop lying to yourself.
I'm an NBN sceptic. I don't care about a return to full fibre. I only care about a return for the taxpayer and closing the digital divide.
The NBN is a open access wholesale, government monopoly that is supposed encourage competition. The news is that Morrow is urging end users to buy up higher speed tiers. That is just more proof that the NBN model was fundamentally flawed to begin with.
I only care about a return for the taxpayer and closing the digital divide.
Why the hell do you support Turnbull and the MTM so strongly then? Turnbull is taking us in the exact opposite direction of those two goals. Time to start asking some hard questions of both Turnbull and NBN Co Kingforce. There is so so much wrong with what is being forced upon us. Why are you unwilling to level any criticism at NBN Co and Turnbull when they are moving so far away from the aims you want achieved?
I only care about a return for the taxpayer and closing the digital divide.
Why the hell do you support Turnbull and the MTM so strongly then? Turnbull is taking us in the exact opposite direction of those two goals. Time to start asking some hard questions of both Turnbull and NBN Co Kingforce. There is so so much wrong with what is being forced upon us. Why are you unwilling to level any criticism at NBN Co and Turnbull when they are moving so far away from the aims you want achieved?
The NBN is a open access wholesale, government monopoly that is supposed encourage competition.
It would have under Labors model where the underlying infrastructure was all equal. We are a very long way from that now.
The news is that Morrow is urging end users to buy up higher speed tiers. Morrow shouldnt be talking to RSPs customers directly and trying to influence how they spend with a retailer. He is in serious breach and is once again speaking out of turn, just as he did at election time. I see you still have no problems with Morrow doing the wrong thing.
That is just more proof that the NBN model was fundamentally flawed to begin with. Yep. The MTM was always seriously flawed. Many of us here have been pointing that out since its inception. Isnt it a shame that those who have defended it and refused to ask the hard questions of Turnbull and co have let it slide and are pretending that they are concerned now. You should have been asking questions about the very clear flaws in the MTM long ago Kingforce. Way too late to pretend to be concerned now.
I only care about a return for the taxpayer and closing the digital divide.
But you are supporting the poor return and extending and increasing the digital divide with the MTM.
Its like ringing someone to bring a petrol tanker full of flammable liquid, instead of a fire fighting apparatus full of water and fire extinguishing chemicals to put out a fire.
How can anyone support something that is literally causing the opposite effect in terms of return for the tax payer and increasing the digital divide.
Poes law really.
If I ran a business like how the NBNco is currently runned now I wouldn't have a business left in 12 months.
I already said that I view a return to the taxpayer as the number one priority and then after that the end consumer.
How to we get that under Turnbulls model that you so steadfastly refuse to question? Your defence of Turnbull and his MTM is seriously misplaced when you state aims like the ones you have.
And my view is that should be a return to the nation.
Precisely. There are so many non-cash benefits to the NBN that only a government can count as part of a return on investment. Its a shame Turnbull is too ego driven and pig headed to change his flawed MTM.
The MTM will not only not sufficiently contribute to the 'taxpayers' it will hold back Australia's development and progress.
Nothing is more certain.
were setting up to skip FTTP and go straight from FTTMTM to ... whatever it is that they can get to travel faster than light
AJLT � Alan Jones Laser Technology will be the next step.
I only care about a return for the taxpayer and closing the digital divide.
In a globalised world with offshore outsourcing, to and from Australia, and remote global teamwork, there's a number of digital divides that need closing, not getting too far apart, or staying ahead of as a trading nation.
The ACCC looked at the revenue assumptions of NBN Co's business model up until 2040 and said they were plausible. That allowed NBN Co to set AVC and CVC prices at roughly the levels they are today. If the ACCC were to force a lowering of costs then that would mean the ACCC was wrong to approve the SAU in the first place.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong about that.
Your wrong as usual, it was based off the FTTP 93% model which allowed for network scalability and volume increases to buy more CVC. Under FTTN, good luck with that. Up to speeds ring a bell? we dont need more than 25mbits?
I only care about a return for the taxpayer
So those that do not pay "net" taxes, because they do not earn enough income through unfortunate circumstances, receiving Government family benefits, having carers responsibilities, born into poverty, retired, too young to work, or with ill health, can go and get stuffed when it comes to the NBN and broadband?
I've been getting into reading the history of what has happened over the last 10 years. Jesus it is depressing. What a total balls-up.
Thank you for getting educated on the topic. If the rest of Australia got educated, these clowns wouldn't be governing today bringing us the MTM of junk.
You should also read up about Telstra and how we got here, it extends back at least 20 years. Telstra is one of the reasons we have bugger all competition in the telco industry.
When I read this article:
http://www.news.com.
and this paragraph:
FORMER Dick Smith boss Nick Abboud spruiked an ill-fated expansion into whitegoods by claiming the retailer�s �connected� appliances would mean �you can lie in bed and boil the kettle�, according to one former board member.
love those directors who live in a fairy world while destroying the company from which they are director. How much does this apply to NBN Co?
�It was an issue of competence, not dishonesty or deceit,� he said.
It always is and it makes the crash even more spectacular.
Heard today that I am a difficult in regards to the discussion of willingly and knowingly overselling bandwidth on the NBN. Being difficult is translated by me to a compliment as it means that my arguments cannot be addressed and they rather attack the individual.
They didn't had the guts to tell me directly but lucky enough somebody forwarded it to me.
You are difficult as a consumer of services. Difficult. I love that characterization of a consumer. It showcases no respect for Australian Consumer Law, Contract Law and the consumer. It is a overpowering stigmatization of the consumer to hide suppliers inabilities to perform. Difficult is how one is perceived as consumer when valid questions and arguments are brought to the table.
You must be difficult if a supplier considers that you have an option to go somewhere else. Bill Morrow style, consumers have options. Sure mate, dream on in your little fairy world. Choice in our market was killed off with the POI-policy. Apparently it is not relevant if you don't want to go somewhere else and simply want to receive what has been represented to you.
Remember that word. Difficult is what you Australians are if you discuss or question the willingly and knowingly overselling of bandwidth on the NBN. You should pay and be quiet or otherwise bugger off. Stuff the Australian Consumer Law, Contract Law and your rights.
I think I am going to be considered extremely difficult for a very long time.
FORMER Dick Smith boss Nick Abboud ..... love those directors who live in a fairy world while destroying the company from which they are director. How much does this apply to NBN Co?
�It was an issue of competence, not dishonesty or deceit,� he said.
Funny as I was going to post something similar after reading that Dick Smith article today.
Even worse are the other directors who sit around and do pretty much bugger all that is effective to head it off or take drastic action whilst the destruction is happening before their eyes.
So the NBN site just isn't granular enough this far out.
Not now since the "turnaround" from Turnbull to provide a more "transparent" nbnTM.
People in my neck of the woods are being told by the nbnTM website that they should apply for SkyMuster when Fixed Wireless is coming! How many bites at the nbnTM cherry can we have Malcolm? One install? Two? An upgrade with extra fairy dust maybe?
that's just it, if you don't get a 4 data + 2 VoIP port ntd in your home with the ability to have 4 separate data services then you don't have nbn. You just have dsl
Heard today that I am a difficult in regards to the discussion of willingly and knowingly overselling bandwidth on the NBN.
I think I am going to be considered extremely difficult for a very long time.
Go Frank !!!
Not very balanced reporting there, the writer obfuscates deliberately these interests and not one time it is mention in the article that Nokia is the technology partner of NBN Co for XG-Fast. Dirty reporting, no other words for it. Gets worse though at the end.
"Steiger's comments coincided with NBN Co and Nokia's first ever announcement that they would trial next generation, XG.FAST copper broadband technology in Australian conditions"
Double post in error. Sorry.
Oh yeah Einstein.
Tell all of the above to the law firm that has to get expert witness comments on photos to them by tomorrow.
Or the software developer who has to upload product.
Or the media person who's taken a stack of video footage.
I don't want to say it. But you are a Luddite.
Okay, I will tell it to them.
Hey law firm, if you see a competitive advantage then pay for it yourself and don't expect the average taxpayer to risk their dollars for it.
(Oh and how did justice get served before the idea of broadband?)
Hey software developer, if you see competitive advantage in high-speed broadband pay for it yourself and don't expect the average taxpayer to risk their dollars for it.
Hey media person....etc etc etc
I really don't care how we get the speed up but do care about taxpayer return given the ways/methods have been sold to us ...and I appreciate the benefits of broadband but they were just bad examples to support an argument that the government "demands" we must have super-duper fast broadband to participate in society but deny it to us as a basic right. Pointing out how commercial operations can directly benefit while ignoring average individual consumer real needs to participate in the society at a basic level (and have for years before broadband) is not really supporting an argument for Gbps service. That may change for many reasons and arguing that you need to future proof for such a possibility, I accept. How one goes about it is up for debate (for this little black Luddite at least).
Yours Sincerely,
Einstein
funny, note the LOWEST speed tier
look at verizon, bell canada, NZ, Singapore � there are already large areas of the world where the minimum broadband speeds on offer are better than the best that will be on offer to most of Australia in 5 years time when the MTM/nbn is completed.
And here what do you say to someone with a very limited income
oh come on. Various people posting here are just saying that effective use of IT has reduced the cost to government of delivering services. This is a good thing, which we should encourage with sensible infrastructure decisions. It doesn't mean that people without access to broadband should/will be excluded, on the contrary it means that there is more money available to help them.
Step back for a moment. What is the core reason for NBN's inception? Different people have different ideas about what that is.
now they have different ideas, but there was a core reason for its inception.
and while you touched on it with several of your points the one that was the main reason was ubiquity. levelling the playing field and giving everyone the opportunity to ge t the same service for the same price no matter where they were ( within reason, those 7$ were not considered coist effective YET, but it was written into the first plan that they were not to be forgotten and they would be included with fttp as soon as was possible ( kind of like how quickly we are getting our gay plebiscite or 25/5, no date, just as soon as is reasonably possible)
so Kingy can have whatever ideas he wants it doesn't change the reason we have an nbn. the reason was labor, LNP called it a white elephant and a waste of money, so it only came about because of labor, and their core reason for its inception was ubiquity. Its why they serviced some of the worst effected ADSL users first, not because that was financially sensible, they wre doing everyone anyway why not service some of the people that had been forgotten, and figure out the best ways to do it on those guys before you plough into a city and start disrupting businesses.
True, but there was NBN
Which was a great idea.
but now we have MTM.
Which is a different animal and hopefully an extinct species sooner than later.
To some (like Kingforce) it is to provide a return on taxpayers money.
To many it is to provide ubiquitous high speed internet.
The fundamental fallacy of the Lib's policy is that these two goals are mutually exclusive, when the reverse is true. An all fibre NBN could achieve both these goals. MTM can achieve neither.
Which is a different animal and hopefully an extinct species sooner than later.
It is dead but just does not know it yet like a chook body when the head has been chopped off, still runs around before Crashing.
High speeds, reliable internet & a return both great, but it's also helping our economical growth right now, as Turnbull admits:
Speaking to reporters in Vientiane�s oldest temple, Wat Sisaket, Mr Turnbull also conceded that Australia�s ongoing economic growth was due in part to Government spending, saying the rollout of the NBN was an important infrastructure investment
Much more important, in my opinion, is reliability and ubiquity.
It is the ubiquity, which I agree was a major feature, that has been the major cause of opposition to the original FTTP to 93% concept.
It is not very hard to work out that the thought of the "unwashed masses" being able to access very high speed internet at relatively low cost sent the "born to rule" into fits of fear that they would lose their pre-eminence. This is evidenced by the main characters in the misleading propaganda war that was started against the FTTP roll out and the censorship of all those who supported it.
The MTM was a feeble attempt to emulate the original concept and was a predictable failure that is now being supported and misrepresented, in main, by those who for nefarious reasons opposed the original FTTP concept.
True, but there was NBN but now we have MTM.
Yep, and there goes the reliability that is needed to deliver a load of benefits. Nobody is bashing Turnbull over the head with this, though.
seems as though nbn� have now broken the fixed wireless system some extracts from SkyMesh sub section
There's no question, it's an nbn co Fixed Wireless problem. Our guess is they have oversubscribed the towers or your particular radio or the backhaul or all of those. It's not our CVC or backhaul as you can see from Furyan's speed tests. If he can get speeds like that on the same CSA that you're on, it can't be a SkyMesh issue.
I've hinted at this before, but it's worth saying again. The (up to) 50/20 Mbps Fixed Wireless Plans have broken Fixed Wireless. It's great in some areas and terrible in others. Customers on 50/20 Plans with ISPs such as Optus with 'unlimited' downloads have just killed some of the towers.
We're getting close to dumping (up to) 50/20 Mbps Plans in some areas and asking 25/5 Mbps customers to consider dropping to 12/1 Mbps to they at least get close to their peak speeds.
cheapa � only achievable by cutting corners, ie overselling tower access, reducing fixed line coverage footprint and thus moving more to towers
fasta � only in dreams
betta � a whitegoods retailer
You are quoting significantly more words than you have written.
Consider whether you need to quote at all
betta � a whitegoods retailer
Or a dairy products company
http://bettamilk.com.au/
:-P
Or a dairy products company
http://bettamilk.com.au/
Is there someone standing behind Nikki that we cant see? Her face is priceless.
True, but there was NBN but now we have MTM.
Indeed. The conflation of the two needs to stop. The business case under Labors NBN is very different to Turnbulls MTM. One had one, one hasn't for a start.
their core reason for its inception was ubiquity
The MTM has moved a long way from that! There is no ubiquity between FTTP,HFC and FTTN. Its now a lucky dip for those on HFC and FTTN.
Which is a different animal and hopefully an extinct species sooner than later.
It wont be going away anytime soon. We will be stuck with the mess the MTM has created for decades!
seems as though nbn� have now broken the fixed wireless system some extracts from SkyMesh sub section
Thats is appalling! RSPs having to recommend customers move off higher speed plans to counter NBN Co incompetence. This is stark in contrast to Morrows recent announcement that NBN Co is actively going to be in contact with end users to encourage them to move up. NBN Co are obviuosly desperate for this to happen and they badly need the revenue.
No doubt NBN co is blaming someone else for the tower problems.
Thats is appalling! RSPs having to recommend customers move off higher speed plans to counter NBN Co incompetence
its not just wireless I had Telstra business in offering business nbn and saying that we should only go for 25/5 as in their experience the absolute best outcome is getting close to 50/20
No Turnbull and Fifield?
Let's see what they have to say when the new corporate plan comes out and when they have to sort out funding for the NBNCo beyond this financial year.
It wont be going away anytime soon. We will be stuck with the mess the MTM has created for decades!
At least a generation! We won't see a return to a fibre based network until post 2050.
Wonder that the reaction from the audience will be?
Ah, Bill is on a well-known path of criticising others by being educational. Hope he is not that condescending what he normally is in the Senate hearings.
Don't think Morrow will be wanting to say too much about the above sentence in his speech today.
He will sell it that he did it for cost-economical reasons while not telling them that he actually put the signature under the purchase of Telstra and Optus HFC network.
And Israel, Singapore, the US, and a whole swag of other nations will say "Thank you Zwitowski, Morrow, Abbott, Turnbull, Telstra, and Murdoch".
They will say "sure" while they are building their FTTP network. This lot are overseas considered wasted time. That they like to hear the sound of their own voices, doesn't mean the rest of the world does.
It certainly is. It's much worse than you sometimes read in the papers (or on whirlpool or delimiter RIP)
Would love to see the audience and attending media reaction at this point of the speech.
The state of the NBN is similar and a direct reflection of the state of this government, lots of waffle, no substance, no result and not even remotely connected to reality.
Put Australian ahead of the world? More like at the (Dick)head end of the world.
"Look what those idiots down-under came up with. A reverse innovation agenda on brandband infrastructure. The first country in the world that moves from a fibre policy to a copper policy. Hahahaha, those dumbo's. We signed a free trade agreement with them. Those Ozzies can order on our web store and we can deliver it easy to them, while they have no means to compete with us in the global market. Ozzie Ozzie Ozzie, three cheers for Mr Internet."
�As a nation, we need to make it easier for entrepreneurs to get started, grab opportunities and build scale, locally and globally,�� Mr Morrow will say.
Innovation and entrepreneurship is driven by demand. Not policies.
�And the NBN has a vital role to play here.�
NBN does not drive demand, much the opposite, its restricts demand as it is based now on a supply driven policy, the MTM-policy. Our government and NBN Co decides what is good enough for us. This is not an environment where innovation and entrepreneurship is promoted.
While little Bill was sitting in the class room of grade 2, the teacher drew a cross on the blackboard and said to the class "This cross represents each and one of you". Then she drew a big circle around the cross and stated "This is the rest of the world and you all are the centre of the world".
The above is taught in schools around the world, including Australia. If you have any doubt why the world develops as it is, then the above is the source of the problem.
The right of individual identity which is now the latest PC trend is simply an extension of the above doctrine.
And little Bill?
He was asked to "repair" the biggest infrastructural failure in the world. As he is convinced that his job is now done, he is explaining to the rest of the world, while they are all looking at him, how great his achievements are.
Need a coffee...
Jesus. I feel bad for Morrow, essentially he was handed a loaded bowl with no flush button. But the spin.. My god "put us ahead of the world"....
Wow. Is all I can say to that.
Jesus. I feel bad for Morrow, essentially he was handed a loaded bowl with no flush button. But the spin.. My god "put us ahead of the world"....
Morrow does not care he is getting paid a lot of money for this lame duck.
If he had any convictions he would of not accepted the job or resign.
Why feel sorry for him.
Mr Morrow will also say Australia is on track to becoming the first continent to be fully wired up to broadband.
I heard him say this on AM this morning also. Looks like this is the latest weasel-phrase. Don't compare us to countries, compare us to complete continents.
He also said they were on track and on budget for completion in 2020. I thought the target was 2019.
Mr Morrow will also say Australia is on track to becoming the first continent to be fully wired up to broadband.
Satellite, Fixed Wireless and Mobile Broadband are going to be really peeved if he actually says that. Magiced away as though they do not exist as the only option, or only cost effective option, for millions of their customers.
"will put Australia �ahead of the world"
behind 59 other countries on internet speeds. *** can't compute ***
Mr Morrow will also say Australia is on track to becoming the first continent to be fully wired up to broadband.
About every non third world country is fully wired to the home. Yes of course, there always some difficult premises in each of those countries, but on the total number, they are very marginal. What a empty statement to sprout your achievements.
I thought the target was 2019.
NBN rollout on track, on budget says Bill Morrow
Actually it was 2016 but not longer after being elected on that mandate they announced a "slight" delay 2020 being the new date for completion.
The state of the NBN is similar and a direct reflection of the state of this government, lots of waffle, no substance, no result and not even remotely connected to reality.
Don't forget who voted this government in. Collectively we did.
http://www.ispreview.co.uk/i
Oh dear NBN / Turnbull won't be able to use UK as an example now.
Actually it was 2016 but not longer after being elected on that mandate they announced a "slight" delay 2020 being the new date for completion.
Next year it will be 2022 if the trend continues. There is a parallel between the year we living in and the year NBN will be finished. We never reach the moment of finishing.
But as I argued before, you cannot state that the NBN will be finished at such or such a time. Global developments and progress will dictate that we keep building continuously and what we SHOULD try to achieve as a nation is that the revenue of NBN Co pays for the continuous building.
The cards at the moment state a negative cashflow and consequently no money for upgrades in 2020. Severe problems with raising capital at the moment, so all these so called "achievements" are in fact only empty soap balloons ready to be popped.
Daddy can sell one of his investment properties to help fund a business grade fixed broadband installation and monthly service fees.
Not every student innovator has a rich businessman daddy with an investment property. Turnbull thought everyone has such types of daddys because he had long ago forgotten the difficulties of struggling people.
Did you see him hand out $5 note to a homeless bloke on a Melbourne street? He also had $10 and $20 notes in the same hand, but chose to hand out only $5 just to "feel good" or show the world that he has a big heart.
Daddy can sell one of his investment properties to help fund a business grade fixed broadband installation and monthly service fees.
AhhI see now. MTM is a housing affordability programme :-).
Actually it was 2016 but not longer after being elected on that mandate they announced a "slight" delay 2020 being the new date for completion.
I am pretty sure that date has also been changed in the most recent releases to "as soon as possible" kind of like his plebiscite on gay marriage.
Morrow is a tool and a puppet but you cant really blame him, well you kinda can, but none of this has been his decisions. This is Malcom Turnbulls policy.
Just go back over the order of events, there really is only a couple of key steps that show clearly where it was going wrong.
in the 2013 election Malcom Turbull went to the polls with
"faster, sooner and cheaper"
his plan was to use FTTN to achieve this .. ok we all agree with this so far right ?
what was his first action as the now minister for comms and tech ?
you remember ... it was the strategic review ( along with the halting of roll out etc ) the strategic review was there to do what ?
to see if FTTN would be delivered sooner for less money right ?
But he had already told us it would .. before he did the study .. that was his election promise right ??
So why did he do a review if he already knew it was going to be sooner cheaper why then do a review ?
surprise surprise the review said that yes he WAS right all along ... so again why the review for 2 years Malcom ? you told us you knew, then you won on that assumption .. then you spend millions and years proving to us you were right rather than just doing what you said you would ...
and now you have been proved very very wrong ... but you cant admit that, in the vein hope that you can sweep this under the carpet and retain another government next time ...
I think there is actually a case for criminal proceedings, imagine a class action with the entire HFC, FTTN footprint as recipients and the liberal party as the defendants.
the first continent
there always some difficult premises in each of those countries
Don't be suckered by the c-word. The statement is a bald-faced lie from many angles.
(a) We are using satellite to achieve our coverage anyway, so it's not wired.
(b) Have a look at the various breakdowns of what a "continent" is considered to be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent and you will see we've got a bit of work to bring internet to a lot of little islands that are classed as part of the "Australia" continent. The highest point on our Australia continent is Puncak Jaya in Papua. Bet you didn't know that! (I didn't, until I looked it up)
Don't be suckered by the c-word. The statement is a bald-faced lie from many angles.
Weasel words again.
If NBNCo had actually engaged with the market, enthusiasts, and been a hell of a lot more open and honest about things, then maybe they'd have less criticism (asides from the never say die)
if NBNCo had actually engaged with the market, enthusiasts, and been a hell of a lot more open and honest about things, then maybe they'd have less criticism
the way the nbn have been played its like a military hierarchy.
They were created by the government and report to the government. Government a said do things this way and they did, they talked up their successes and the technology and kept on doing what the government told them.
then the gove4renment changed and now the government say do it this way, and nbn say yes sir, and hop to it ..
I get the feeling this was always going to be Morrows get out of jail free card
"I was just following the policy set by the government"
if nbn had actually done cost benefit analysis it wouldn't be rolling out fttn it just wouldn't.
Don't be suckered by the c-word. The statement is a bald-faced lie from many angles.
Obviously as on whatever level you lift his statement (country, continent, province or city), this statement remains a lie. Personally, I do not consider the country/continent discussion so relevant, it is merely an indication of their grotesque thinking.
We are using satellite to achieve our coverage anyway, so it's not wired.
Indeed, many factual incorrect statements. And the question of competency should be raised, in all fairness, if such an individual should lead such a large infrastructural, if he keeps making such grotesque incorrect statements. It raises the question of capability, it raises the question of judgement, it raises the question of humility being a CEO of a GBE.
Now, I understand why this is happening (note I don't write approve). The NBN Co needs to be sold. Not sold as in changing ownership, but sold as in attracting investment. They think to achieve this through political tactics, which is obviously is not going to work. Investors are not idiots and are not going to invest on unrealistic views of a Board. In fact, each large investing company has people working for them which are highly specialised in an area, for example the Telecom Industry. The follow many global companies, like for example Chorus. They know what drives Telecom companies to success.
This kind of actions actually achieve the opposite as it shows a disconnected Board which doesn't understand global development and the demand they need to satisfy to generate sufficient revenue.
Bill doesn't get out much............
I submitted this to the Gawler NBN conversation but i also put it here to cover the broader issue. If there is fibre going right pass my door, and if the node is around 500m down the hill � how am I connected to the node � would part of it be fibre or would it be copper all the way. The fibre going pass my house was put there over a year ago. New fibre is being pulled along adjacent street.
With fibre so close why am I not offered FTTP.
"Heaps of activity on Redbanks Road today. spoke to a tech who verified that there fibre that goes right passed my house � done more than a year ago BUT I still will be connected to the node at the cnr of Paxton Street and Main North Road -500m + away depending on the route. Would it be copper connection all the way or fibre -it seems weird when there is fibre right in front of my front fence that it would not be used.
My ADSL is around 7/0.6 mbs. Once connections start in December I would need to get some good feedback from early adopters before making the move, 'cause despite my low speed it does have the benefit of consistency."
Pay attention Bill.
http://mybroadband.co.za/new
Vumatel and Telkom � who quickly adopted the same strategy, experienced greater investment interest following the surge in demand enabling an aggressive rollout strategy of FTTH.
Demand drives innovation and ***rofl*** investment interest. And may I state that demand drives a higher revenue? Yes, I may.
Bill, if you wonder where funding is going from investors. In aggressive FTTH rollout's by smart and agile companies.
And these basic principles you should be able to understand too.
Principle 1
Active premises mean profits which consists out of revenue � expenses.
Passed premises, not active means losses which consists out of expenses only (no revenue).
Principle 2
Higher speeds means higher uptake, higher revenue, higher profit margin, less not active premises and higher investment interest.
Lower speeds means lower uptake, less revenue, less profit margin on active services, less active premises and lower investment interest.
Principle 3
Slower access technology means lower outlay, a faster deployment, lower speeds, lower uptake and consequently a faster build-up of recurring expenses on premises that are not active while the active premises generate a lower profit.
Faster access technology means higher outlay, a slower deployment, faster speeds, higher uptake and consequently a larger amount of active premises from which the expenses are covered by revenue (and profit). while generating a higher profit.
That going faster on the rollout under cost-economical or cheaper reasons to justify the odd non economical political argument of a "investment ceiling" is not such a smart idea when you opt for slower access technologies. Effectively you consuming the capital faster as you ending up with more recurring expenses as the uptake is lower plus the profit per service is lower. That "investment ceiling" will go up, a lot, while there is no money to upgrade to faster speeds.
Sorry to say Bill, you painted yourself nicely into a corner if no extra capital is coming forward.
Lets quote a bit from the above article.
Often referred to as the �endgame technology�, fibre infrastructure offers a very attractive business model over the longer term.
The targets being set by the infrastructure providers are aggressive, and the more rapid deployment of the network and seemingly increased interest in funding will mean potentially reaching those goals with relative ease.
Bill doesn't get out much............
Watch out, you're being watched!
https://twitter.com/
:)
Let's see what they have to say when the new corporate plan comes out and when they have to sort out funding for the NBNCo beyond this financial year.
Why? Turnbull has been saying for years that the aim of his MTM is to rollout national broadband, faster, cheaper and at less risk to the taxpayer. He has said across all those years as well that his MTM would provide a return to the taxpayer.
If we are supposed to be hitting him over the head with things, why do we have to wait for him to say it again before we start?
Watch out, you're being watched!
I see she it is back dribbling garbage on twitter once again.
Maybe we should post some broadband speed comparisons between the two countries instead.
If we are supposed to be hitting him over the head with things, why do we have to wait for him to say it again before we start?
You are surely not suggesting we haven't been hitting him over the head for the last four years?
We have said over and over again that he is wasting money and that the government will be lucky to give the NBNCo away and only lose $29.5bn. A few of us have speculated that the government will either have to put in more money, either directly or indirectly, or wind up the NBNCo. Let's see which it is and then hit him over the head some more.
Bill doesn't get out much............
"We're quite confident of the numbers we've put together; I think it's important for everybody to realise we now have contracts in place to complete the entire build. This is the first time that we've had that, so we've removed much of the uncertainty," Morrow said.
He has been busy locking in contracts to ensure MTM can never be rolled back.
We all have to accept that there will never be a return to FTTH and nothing can be done about it with locking in of contracts for the entire build.
http://www.zdnet.com/article
Would it be copper connection all the way or fibre
They will cut the copper of from where the node is that feeds the service pillar.
You will then have a copper connection from your place to that pillar and back ro rhe node
Watch out, you're being watched!
https://twitter.com/
:)
FrankBuijk @FrankBuijk � 36s
@karinakeisler Size doesn't matter, understanding Telecom business principles does. whrl.pl/ReH5EM Say Hi to Bill from me. :) #NBN
In spite of the upgrade paths, and criticisms that only full fibre could provide high enough speeds in the future, nearly half of all NBN premises are still on 25/5Mbps.
This really irritates me.....
Lol at that tweet. You could zoom in for days and still not fill the area with connected available Reliable broadband.
NBN are rolling out HFC in suburbs like Ocean Reef and Woodvale which already have really fast speeds (100mb/sec) via Telstra HFC a well as having ADSL2 speeds pretty high due to their proximity to their Exchanges whilst ignoring suburbs that are classed poorly served and are supposed to be given prority in the Govt SOE.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/cont
When planning the rollout, nbn should prioritise locations that are poorly served, to the extent commercially and operationally feasible.
Prioritising does not equate to giving everything a high priority. It is a process of grouping/ranking of importance.
Priority categories can be grouped into High, Medium and Low priorities.
The SOE does not state that poorly served locations should get a high priority for being RFS.
Within the HFC footprint, you would have thought that the priority should be for those premise that can't get the HFC or those that don't have HFC lead ins or HFC running down their street. Or Optus HFC areas that are overloaded or in disrepair. But from the uncertainty of what is happening with the Optus HFC, and the announcement that it will cost too much to fill in the HFC network, it seems like those most underserved in the HFC Network are going to have to wait even longer to be more adequately served.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
He has been busy locking in contracts to ensure MTM can never be rolled back.
GMT says with glee!
We all have to accept that there will never be a return to FTTH and nothing can be done about it with locking in of contracts for the entire build.
GMT says with glee!
I've never understood your stunted attitude GMT. It is just so politically slanted. Don't you think that the good of the nation is more important? Rhetorical question by the way GMT. No response required from myopic individuals.
Watch out, you're being watched!
https://twitter.com/
The whole land size argument drives me nuts.
Watch out, you're being watched!
https://twitter.com/
Not this crap again. Seems the twits at MTMco and the ones who defend their garbage never stop and think about it logically.
NBN thought bubbles..
Compare Australia to the UK because its got nodes..
Can't compare Australia to Singapore because it has fibre..
Australia only x31.4 larger then the UK
'Stralia leading from behind
http://www.zdnet.com/
"The really critical thing is: We've been making so much momentum and we're well on track to actually be the first continent to have a fully connected universal access broadband that has 25Mbps or better, and in fact on the speed I think it's important we all realise that 40 percent of the nation when we're done will have access to 1Gbps," Morrow said in an interview with ABC radio on Friday morning.
They are already failing on this. We already have places in the FTTN footprint in our city that cannot get 25mbps. NBN Co blame everyone else for the problems.
"That's better than we think any other nation will be at the year 2020, and then we'll of course always be upgrading according to consumer demand, we will not leave people behind, our country will be in a leadership position, we're going to keep it that way."
What a crock! People are already being left behind. NBN Co have to be in front of consumer demand. If they wait until customers are pushing the envelope, its too late. They then need to find the resources, technology etc to upgrade them. They will no doubt have to hit the government up for many more billions, and as we have seen so many times before, the wheels turn slowly in government and the politicking that goes along with a project like this only makes it worse.
NBN last week outlined the upgrade paths for each network technology that could see most parts of the MTM attain gigabit speeds over the next five years.
Umm, what????? Five years???? Where are plans for that? Isnt it supposed to be consumer demand driven? Where is the money coming from? Why dont journalists ask these questions?? It really doesnt take much effort to understand even the most blatant problems with the MTM.
"It is about making sure we provide a minimum performance level today with an upgrade path. This is vitally important," Morrow said last week.
Fail! Minimum performance levels are not being met today! So frustrating that they keep getting away with this sort of lie and that people are letting them get away with it without question.
By removing the date requirement for the finish of the NBN from the revised SOE (Aug 2016), and replacing it with ASAP, the Federal Government appears to be indicating that it has serious doubts about when the NBN/MTM can be declared as finished, and that it is probably not possible for it to be finished within the previous 2020 target.
This removing of a solid required end and realistic date enables the Federal Government to try and get out of jail free if the NBN/MTM is not finished by 2020.
As soon as possible = it will be impossible to finish building it any time soon, so lets leave the end date as open to whenever it is finished.
NBN thought bubbles..
Compare Australia to the UK because its got nodes..
Can't compare Australia to Singapore because it has fibre..
Australia only x31.4 larger then the UK
Yep... We're (much) larger than Singapore as NBN likes to point out. Yet, with such large distances we still insist on using copper.....
p.s. Canada, USA, Russia say hi!
likely turn on Morrow first.
I don't think he cares considering his past.
Pocketing $3m for being a yes man, pretty nice indeed.
Morrow is comparing us to Middle Earth Internet.
Fibre to the Hobbit (FttH).
Gotta have that FTTC(ave).
In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbit. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort.
Of course Morrow is happy, his contract is up next year. Ziggy's is up at beginning of next month, I'll assume he'll get reappointed
Ziggy's is up at beginning of next month, I'll assume he'll get reappointed
For breaching the caretaker conventions for old pal Mal, for sure and throw in a nice little bonus too.
Definitely not the 59 that are better than us.
Here's one of them...
FOCUS ON OPPORTUNITIES, NOT COST: NBN BOSS
He he.
I won't link the article because thebull.com.au has some security holes in it my server doesn't like.
NBN Co boss Bill Morrow is urging Australians to forget the $49 billion price tag on the national broadband network and focus on the many opportunities it offers.
Yet cuts users off HFC to FTTN.
Yet tells us that cost is everything and the whole reason we're headed down MTM.
"The NBN is unique globally
Finally Bill said something right. Yes the only place on Earth that purchases its old assets back and then dumps billions of dollars into them.
I would not be the least bit surprised if the next major update of Pokemon Go App includes a creature called Edon
Large, green and covered in grafiti
Can be found near to real life FTTN Nodes
Requires a special ball to catch it. A Turnball.
Evolves from only 2 candies from another late entry into the Pokemon clan. A creature called Moclam. Making the Edon extremely prolific, and renowned as a bit of a pest.
Unsurprisingly, it currently does not evolve into any other Pokemon.
Although Niantic are still trying to find a way to see if it can be set up to evolve into an Erbif, or possibly an Euqitna for more realism in the game.
Edon's 3 standard gym fighting moves of the copper whip, electric shock, and the data pulse, are not very effective against any other Pokemon
The Edon is of little value for anything other than levelling up, or the pleasure of throwing Turnballs at.
In spite of the upgrade paths, and criticisms that only full fibre could provide high enough speeds in the future, nearly half of all NBN premises are still on 25/5Mbps.
This really irritates me....
me also I cannot get any higher than 25/5, sure I might be able to sync mid 30/15 but be paying for 50/20 or 100/40
dear Bill, please come and show me what upgrade path there is for me to achieve 50/20 on my FTTN connection, let alone 100/40
currently the maximum line rate according to both my modems (different brands and firmware) is
Max Rate (Kbps) 12839 41216
remember the max line rate is "calculated" with NO NOISE on the line
Wonder how much Bill would scream if his nice expensive bottle of red was only half full but he had to pay full price
Finally Bill said something right. Yes the only place on Earth that purchases its old assets liabilities back and then dumps billions of dollars into them.
I corrected the statement for you. Only in Australia is this a world first.
I don't know how Bill can make a statement that 40% of Australian's will be able to get gigabit speeds.
AFAIK, only 10% of homes in Australia got FTTP (if that).
Again Bill is telling porkies. The whole thing is a big joke. I think the amount of hate the FTTN network is generating will continue. There is only so much they can spin until people experience how horrible this technology is. Keep up the story LNP, roll out more fraud.
"The NBN is unique globally
Is that a mispoke. Antique or unique?
The first Government in the History of the Universe to construct an antique, cobbled together from odds and sods and with about as much value as a leprous White Elephant.
NBN Co boss Bill Morrow is urging Australians to forget the $49 billion price tag on the national broadband network
because its 5 billion more than the lnp said was a waste when it was nearly full fibre, so yeah .. don't think about the cost of it at all ...please ...
You know what, Bill might be right when he says we lead any nation in 2020. In weasel words, we'll lead any nation in 2020 with 2005 technology
http://www.thebull.com.au/ar
Mr Morrow believes the public's attention should be on the technological advances the NBN could afford in health, education and entertainment.
What about that all important pastime called WORK?
A Node a day helps you get educated, rest and play?
saw this and thought it was a fairly clear picture of the state of the greenfields roll out
http://users.on.net/~deadlyc
For a little background, about 20 houses built while labor were in power have fttp, the rest of this greefields estate is on that node, including the ones that are just being completed now.
Has anyone checked that the scales are correct and equal (which may even vary with latitude given the curvature of the earth when laid out flat)?
Comparing Australia and Singapore on size is idiotic anyway. If the NBNCo wants to make a comparison they should do it on population density.
I was simply pointing out that the NBNCo has been meant to provide a return on taxpayers money from when it was announced by Conroy and Rudd. It's not just something that Kingforce has dreamt up recently.
Turnbull took up the same cudgel when he his party came to power. He had the opportunity to change it then, as Fifield has in his tenure but neither of them have. It should not be ignored that Turnbull and Fifield are just as keen to seek a return from taxpayers money (though far, far less likely to get it) as Labor was.
He he.
That post should carry a health warning. My blood pressure just shot up. You're spot on, though :)
Of course Morrow is happy, his contract is up next year. Ziggy's is up at beginning of next month, I'll assume he'll get reappointed
Cant see why not. The shareholders of NBN Co think they are doing a wonderful job!
NBN Co boss Bill Morrow is urging Australians to forget the $49 billion price tag on the national broadband network and focus on the many opportunities it offers.
Isnt it a shame Morrow didn't say that to Turnbull when Turnbull ordered him to go to the cheapo, second rate MTM.
There was no discussion of forgetting the price tag for FTTP (which was very close to what the MTM is now) and focussing on the benefits from Morrow back then. No doubt we could have had a much different outcome. Hypocrisy at its finest!
There was no discussion of forgetting the price tag for FTTP (which was very close to what the MTM is now)
the 93% fttp roll ouit would have been cheaper, by severa l billion at least. and would have been finished quicker .. the 2020 date has already slipped to as soon as possible.
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