Let us pause for a moment and imagine what would have been said by the Liberal party had Mike Quigley said this anytime prior to the 2013 election.
The LNP chucked a hissy fit on 44billion for a much more superior network. Just like New Zealands Chorus one (look at how well that's going).
But now we are told, its 49 billion, forget about the price tag. We bought junk and garbage with it.
But now we are told, its 49 billion, forget about the price tag. We bought junk and garbage with it.
Telling ya the only way to deal with these people is force these days. It's not fair they can change their tune whenever they feel like it and get away like they have some politician immunity.
So NZ get a real NBN and Australia gets a junk network that will cost twice as much to get to the same level as it has to be built twice.
[Chorus:]
It's not about the money, money, money
Cos it's not our money, money, money
We just wanna make the world laugh,
Forget about the price tag
Ain't about the (uh) ch-ch-ching ch-ching
Ain't about the (yeah) bl-bling-bl-bling
Wanna make the Zealots cry,
Forget about the price tag (OK)
Whirlpool needs a like button :)
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/20
On top of just-shy-of-a-gigabit download speeds, Telstra is getting close to tripling the current maximum uplink speed seen in most LTE networks globally. Increasing social sharing and video uploads is driving the need for higher uplink performance for smartphone users across the network, Telstra says, and improving uplink speeds is also important for remote and onsite workers use of enterprise cloud applications for unified communications � especially video-conferencing apps.
NBN CEO says to talk to your RSP about your internet speed requirements.
RSPs with Mobile Spectrum offer and promote much faster speeds on their mobile broadband offerings than their fixed line offerings.
Tier 1 RSPs retailing the nbn prevented from marketing mobile broadband as a substitute to NBN.
Tier 1 RSPs advertising their nbn in terms of the volume of data you can transmit/receive.
Tier 1 RSPs promoting their mobile broadband in terms of the peak speed you can achieve.
The NBNCo and their shareholders saying that they can't currently see or foresee a widespread need for speeds higher than 25/5.
BTW. Great work Telstra.
And across the ditch in NZ we are being shown what the fools here have destroyed as an option for all at a price of $60 per month.
https://delimiter.com.
Who in Australia can we run a class action against and fix it before the sun dies.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
Who in Australia can we run a class action against and fix it before the sun dies.
Don't panic!
Let's see what happens when Labor (or the Greens!?) get back into forming federal government first. :) They will be more pro-NBN.
Has Prime Minister Turnbull or Comms Minister been grilled about New Zealand's "Gignation" in Federal Parliament, and what was their reply? :)
Tier 1 RSPs retailing the nbn prevented from marketing mobile broadband as a substitute to NBN.
What are you talking about? NBN has the same requirements for everyone. What Telstra and Optus have in their contracts is that they cannot deploy their own fixed line fibre networks for a period of 20 years.
Optus even sell http://www.optus.com.au/shop/
Tier 1 RSPs advertising their nbn in terms of the volume of data you can transmit/receive.
Marketting decision. Its been a fairly standard practice to do this, so they are just continuing with the current formula.
Tier 1 RSPs promoting their mobile broadband in terms of the peak speed you can achieve
Marketting decision. Telstra particularly are very proud of their claim to one of the fastest mobile networks in the world. They then use this as their selling point to convince people to go with them instead of the competition. Neither of these 2 have anything to do with NBN.
The NBNCo and their shareholders saying that they can't currently see or foresee a widespread need for speeds higher than 25/5.
Telstra also used this as their justification that 1500/256 adsl was fine too, until internode came along and screwed the business model entirely. Don't offer a reasonably priced connection capable of more and there won't be demand. Don't build it they won't come.
I believe it is not that hard to move to NZ.
Having gone both ways, no its not hard. Its extremely simple actually. As long as you have no criminal convictions you could buy a 1 way ticket tomorrow and live there. We have a bilateral agreement in place with NZ that allows visa free travel both directions to work and live, not just visit.
Surprisingly, you may need to do an IELTS English test (at least people who move from NZ to Australia need to do this).
No, you don't, not in either direction. NZ is a little more laid back than here, also allowing people on permanent residency visas access to the program, however AU does not accept NZ permanent residency visas, and only accept NZ citizenship for an SCV (special category visa), so people who are NZ permanent residents need to follow the directions for residency as prescribed in the agreements for the country they are a citizen of to get residency in Australia, that means if your country of origin requires an IELTS language test, then you need to do it. SCVs however do not, its the same as the other way, come on the plane, visa granted at the immigration desk, and you can work in Australia
Being lead on the road to ..... ?
But unlike britain we bought back the network from the incumbent before then ploughing in billions to give the same level of service to many of the customers...BT are just sweating an EOL asset. We bought an EOL asset off of a laughing Telstra (and Optus)
Comparing Australia and Singapore on size is idiotic anyway. If the NBNCo wants to make a comparison they should do it on population density.
My point to Karina when I said size doesn't matter. It is the most ridiculous comparison, land mass size and broadband speeds. Comparing apples with pears.
And I think it is actual a convenience excuse, that Australia is difficult due to its geographic nature and size etc etc. Rubbish.
Deploying fibre in for example NZ is much more difficult due to earthquakes and ground movement. In Holland you can never find really solid ground, due to the country being in majority under sea level. No rock to be found except in the South East for a very small area. But take for example the US. The US has metro centres all over the country. We are in a massive advantage there as our centres are concentrated in the South East and narrow strips of land along the East Coast. It should cost less, not more. Realise that when we are talking about cost per premises for FTTP. We should be leading and not run behind other countries with a ridiculous high price that nobody believes.
So this whole convenience excuse doesn't even make sense.
What would make more sense is that we discuss where other countries have progressed to solutions and frameworks in which they can easily upgrade Telecom infrastructure. A trench should be made for example only once. As I stated this previously in other countries the utility providers work together. That is also why in those countries the electricity is underground rather than above ground.
The first utility provider digs a deep trench. Mostly this is the gas company due to the hazard of gas so this goes in the bottom of the trench. Some soil goes over and the electricity company throws his cable in. The electricity company again throws some soil in and the water board puts the water pipes in. Again some soil is added. Then the telecom company lays their cables and the trench is closed. The telecom company does not put cables in the ground bare, they use pipes first so it is simple to replace them from the pits. It is mostly different with other utilities as they do not really require upgrade. Gas, water and electricity declines to more energy efficient equipment. Telecom just goes the opposite.
This approach has many advantages.
Financially for all utility providers, only one trench is made and costs are equally shared over the companies. Easier for developers and councils as companies coordinate deployment.
Safety, no above ground electricity posts, which is safer with car accidents and storms (fallen power lines). Utilities are at the correct depth in relation their hazard level. Less road works.
Reliability, only one path, dial before you dig is simple. No cables and pipes all over the place on common ground. In storms no outages due above ground facilities.
In other words, it could be so simple, yet we make everything deliberately complicated and as a result expensive. Australia really should step up as it stays behind on efficiency, productivity and innovation.
What are you talking about? NBN has the same requirements for everyone. What Telstra and Optus have in their contracts is that they cannot deploy their own fixed line fibre networks for a period of 20 years.
I was talking about the below restrictions. Now to dig up what happened to the promoting wireless as a substitute restrictions on Telstra and Optus in the revised in 2015 agreements with NBNCo. Maybe the restriction was watered down or removed completely on both Telstra and Optus.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission today warned a clause in Telstra�s $13 billion contract with NBN Co prohibiting Telstra from marketing wireless technologies as an alternative to fibre broadband could be �detrimental to competition� and should be investigated further.
When Telstra unveiled its NBN contract in late June, it revealed a segment of the contract stated that part of the NBN deal is that it �may not promote wireless services as a substitute for fibre-based services for 20 years� from the commencement date of the contract.
Telstra chief executive David Thodey has maintained the clause isn�t an issue
https://delimiter.com.au/201
Exetel chief executive John Linton speculated Telstra may have ulterior motives for opening up access to its infrastructure.
�If I was a conspiracy theorist, which I�m not by any definition of that term, I would say that the only reason that Telstra would wholesale a high speed mobile service should be taken in the context of the strange clause in the �break up agreement� that forbids Telstra from �advertising its high speed mobile service in competition with the �NBN2�,� wrote Linton.
When Telstra unveiled its NBN contract in late June, it revealed a segment of the contract stated that part of the NBN deal is that it �may not promote wireless services as a substitute for fibre-based services for 20 years� from the commencement date of the contract. The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission believes the clause has the potential to harm competition. Optus has similar constraints in its own contract with NBN Co
If another telco markets a re-badged Telstra Next G mobile service as an alternative to the NBN fibre, does that place Telstra in breach of its contract with NBN Co?
Maybe the restriction was watered down or removed completely on both Telstra and Optus.
Its quite possible because it is in neither of the disclosures for the V1 and V2 agreements
Maybe the restriction was watered down or removed completely on both Telstra and Optus.
https://delimiter.com.au/20
as recently as 2011 and 2012:
(a) NBN was demanding that Telstra agree to a term that Telstra not market Telstra�s wireless
internet services as a substitute for NBN services
(This was an original condition in the Definitive Agreements between NBN and Telstra)
; and
(b) The ACCC was concerned that such provisions would be �detrimental to competition in the
markets for the supply of wireless voice and broadband services�
19. For these reasons, TPG thinks that it is plain that mobile broadband should be considered as a
possible substitute for fixed broadband services. To continue to treat mobile broadband as merely
a complement is to ignore the enormous developments in that market (even in just the past
month). Further regulation will significantly constrain the ability of SB providers to fully compete
with increasingly competitive wireless offerings, to the detriment of the LTIE.
http://www.telstra.com.au/ab
TELSTRA REVISED NBN AGREEMENTS
The detailed Telstra document to the ASX about the changes in the late 2014 NBNCo agreement, do not mention a change in the wireless internet marketing restriction clause. So I assume that there was no material change to the clause.
Happy to be corrected on this, (Little Steve?) if anyone can provide any evidence or even speculation about what happened to these mobile broadband marketing restrictions.
Its quite possible because it is in neither of the disclosures for the V1 and V2 agreements
If the mobile broadband marketing restrictions were removed or watered down at some point after the original 2011 agreements with Telstra and Optus were signed in 2011, then their removal was one that appears to have sneaked under the radar and appears to have received absolutely not promotion, publicity, or even having been publicly disclosed in any manner whatsoever.
Is it possible that they were removed or modified by way of what was deemed a CiC minor contract variation sometime between the 2011 signing and before the 2014 signed revised agreements with both Telstra and Optus?
If the mobile broadband marketing restriction clauses were removed in the Revised main 2014 agreements with Telstra and Optus, and this change not disclosed by ACCC or Telstra and Optus to the ASX, then that is very interesting.
Was a deal done between the ACCC and NBNCo, Telstra and Optus to change these clauses and it all done on the quiet?
That's a good question for the next NBN Senate Estimates to put to NBNCo, if it was not already asked and answered already in Senate Estimates.
Place you bets on what happened here, as one way or another, all will be revealed before the NBN is finished.
We are in a massive advantage there as our centres are concentrated in the South East and narrow strips of land along the East Coast.
It should cost less, not more. Realise that when we are talking about cost per premises for FTTP. We should be leading and not run behind other countries with a ridiculous high price that nobody believes.
Lets see if this federal parliament is smart enough to launch a committee to investigate why our FTTP deployment costs are so much higher than those being reported in other countries and to make recommendations on how to deploy FTTP at a lower cost.
I don't think they were removed and it wouldn't stop them on selling rebadged mobile broadban to another company who could then market it as an alternative
I don't think they were removed and it wouldn't stop them on selling rebadged mobile broadband to another company who could then market it as an alternative
Based on the evidence presented so far, I also don't think the marketing of mobile broadband as alternatives clauses were removed at any point.
I also posted some long time ago how Vodafone or whoever got their hands on Vodafone's spectrum via acquisition, merger or JV (i.e TPG), might have no restrictions whatsoever on marketing mobile broadband as a substitute or alternative to fixed line NBN. That is, unless NBNCo made it a condition of retailing NBN services, that no RSP could market mobile broadband as a substitute or alternative to fixed line NBN. Which would be totally against what Bill Morrow announced this week that NBNCo would not be telling retailers how to do their jobs.
"We're not going to tell the retailers how to do their jobs � that would be out of line for us
Noting that TPG has since gone and purchased some mobile spectrum itself.
If the mobile broadband marketing restriction clauses
Oh the marketing restriction, the marketing restriction doesn't mean they can't sell broadband as fixed line, they just aren't allowed to market it as a substitute for an NBN connection. Like the Optus one doesn't say "get this instead of NBN", and they can't try and convince you to go for the wireless broadband instead of their NBN service. I get what you mean now with those clauses. Those are still in place. Its to protect NBNs interests there.
Telstra may not promote wireless services as a substitute for fibre based services for 20 years from the Commencement Date, but otherwise remains free to compete in the market for the supply of wireless services. http://www.nbnco.com.au/conte
This is entirely different to their prohibition on building a passive optical network, and the fixed line preference where if NBN wireline services exist that Telstra must exclusively use them.
Lucky that NBN is not in the retail business.
Then again, there might be some some lessons for NBNCo to learn from the Dick Smith implosion, in the ramifications of NBN or its retailer RSP's not selling things that customers want and need.
Dick Smith made many unhealthy choices. The only fatal one in retail is to stock things customers don�t want.
to understand your customers and predict what they will want. If you lose focus on that, everything else is irrelevant.
Based on the evidence presented so far, I also don't think the marketing of mobile broadband as alternatives clauses were removed at any point.
Telstra may not promote wireless services as a substitute for fibre based
services for 20 years from the Commencement Date, but otherwise remains
free to compete in the market for the supply of wireless services.
I appreciate it's just a press release and not the text of the actual agreements, but do you think MTM would qualify as a fibre based service?
but do you think MTM would qualify as a fibre based service?
I'm sure either Bill Morrow or Turnbull would class MTM as a fibre based service because it technically has fibre in it. Except Sat and Wireless (Not counting Backhaul)
I appreciate it's just a press release and not the text of the actual agreements, but do you think MTM would qualify as a fibre based service?
well BT in the UK market FTTN as a fibre service, nbn� claim it is, heck every telecommunications service in Australia is a fibre service (at some point in its path)
Realise that when we are talking about cost per premises for FTTP. We should be leading and not run behind other countries with a ridiculous high price that nobody believes.
This is the biggest of the NBNCo's lies imo. They're sticking to a big number that makes FTTP unviable. Nobody believes their number but there's nothing anyone can do about it. The government and the NBNCo know this. Bastards!
Nobody believes their number but there's nothing anyone can do about it. The government and the NBNCo know this. Bastards!
From what I've seen from the leaked documentation its because the numbers are absolute BS. HFC and FTT(B/N) numbers are quoted without PSAA/lease in the capex, and FTTH are quoted with the PSAA/lease amortised into the capex cost. To make things worse at least one document amortises the PSAA/lease into capex, and then includes it in the opex too.
The numbers for FTTH are deliberately being inflated to make it look unviable, including cutting timeframes short by a year or 2 before FTTH's reduced operating costs start tipping the balance.
well BT in the UK market FTTN as a fibre service, nbn�
I believe it was updated in the newer agreement to replace all instances of fibre with fixed line when talking about the access network.
I appreciate it's just a press release and not the text of the actual agreements,
Its the summary sheet, so those terms as they are appear within the agreement. The formal agreement then goes into things in depth, however that is CiC as it should be because it also includes numbers.
The thing that you're missing is that the agreement doesn't say "Telstra must not offer home broadband over wireless" it says they can't market it as an alternative to NBN fibre in the original agreement, which means Telstra can't run a campaign like "Telstra 4GX home internet, twice as fast as an NBN connection" or "Telstra 4GX home broadband, when you don't want the NBN". That kind of advertising where they are comparing it to the NBN as a competing service. They can sell 4GX home broadband as a service, just not with any marketing campaign targeting NBN customers.
My point to Karina when I said size doesn't matter.
In fact I would say FTTP is far more suited to Australia's medium density suburbs than FTTN will ever be because the working range of FTTP from the active hardware is a lot further than VDSL's reach from nodes.
We bought an EOL asset off of a laughing Telstra (and Optus)
And now we (ie, Turnbull & Co, but with our money) will pay out another fortune to power all the nodes and have the corroding crap copper maintained for the foreseeable future.
Tell me again about how it's such an exciting time right now to be here in innovative and agile Australia.
FTT(B/N) numbers are quoted without PSAA/lease in the capex, and FTTH are quoted with the PSAA/lease amortised into the capex cost. To make things worse at least one document amortises the PSAA/lease into capex, and then includes it in the opex too.
The sort of thing that might result in charges if a RC was allowed
The numbers for FTTH are deliberately being inflated to make it look unviable, including cutting timeframes short by a year or 2 before FTTH's reduced operating costs start tipping the balance.
Also that the HFC/FTTN/GF CPP is based on the estimated average at the end of build in 2021. FTTP BF is based on "actuals" build to date. So while the other techs have efficiency's built in as part of forecast, FTTP BF has none of it. If FTTP BF was ongoing and forecasted it would be at least < $3900.
Also add on to the fact that NBN new Mgmt inflated payments to delivery partners and guaranteed overheads for the FTTP deployments, then you start to get an artificial increase. Which is a contributing factor on FTTP going up instead of down.
Then to top it off, FTTP not being given opportunity to mass deploy into urban areas, unlike the FTTN forecasts, where arguably that the FTTP costs would have further decreased.
Like everything with NBN now, just weasel forecasts and spin to suit the narrative.
Adelaide to try to bypass Turnbull's NBN and build their own FTTP 10 Gbps networks?
because.......
�Over 150 cities in the USA are moving toward building 10 gigabit optical fibre networks for their city.�
http://indaily.com.au/news/2
�The 10 gigabit infrastructure will future proof Adelaide and enable the use of next-generation broadband that, overseas, has become a magnet for entrepreneurs, start-ups and folks working in tech-savvy and creative industries.�
If endorsed at tonight�s meeting (and confirmed at a full council meeting next week) the council�s updated strategic plan will feature a commitment to �work with key partners to deliver a 10GB per second capable broadband network across the City and North Adelaide to all premises�.
What does the $699 charge include?
A: The $699 installation fee include:
Civil work to connect to your lead in conduit
Haul fibre into your junction box.
Install junction box
Install wall plate
Provide Optical Network Unit (ONU) and patch cord.
Please note: Customer is to provide power point where the ONU is placed if required.
[edit � added speeds available]
A: Speeds available are as follows:
12Mbps/1Mbps
25Mbps/5
25Mbps/10Mbps
50Mbps/20Mbps
100Mbps/40Mbps
What was the NBN FoD price again?
And this alone proves, that the coalition just want more money to save their failing model doing anything they can to protect the Telstra monopoly and Murdochs empire.
You are quoting significantly more words than you have written.
Consider whether you need to quote at all � unless you are quoting to respond to a specific statement, it's usually easier to just mention who you're responding to.
Otherwise, trim the quoted passages down as much as you can.
What was the NBN FoD price again?
Carefully pitched at a level to ensure MTM� wasn't going to get an embarrassing flood of applications?
Carefully pitched at a level to ensure MTM� wasn't going to get an embarrassing flood of applications?
Maybe we should all do it and then quote whittlesea's council and redtrains price to them? I bet they'd hang up on all of us
Remarkable � Fibre on Demand for $699 � did anyone else look at their pricing for installation?
https://www.redtrain.com.au/whittlesea/faq.php
What does the $699 charge include?
A: The $699 installation fee include:
Civil work to connect to your lead in conduit
Haul fibre into your junction box.
Install junction box
Install wall plate
Provide Optical Network Unit (ONU) and patch cord.
Please note: Customer is to provide power point where the ONU is placed if required.
NBNCo appears to have selected a construction and design model that massively increases the overall cost to the taxpayer, and that makes moving to FTTP under the Technology Choice Program as massively expensive for most premise occupants or owners.
Time for a Federal Government Select Committee to investigate why and how Australia can reduce the cost of FTTP, if it were to be used in the brownfields rollout, and for how NBNCo can provision Fibre on Demand at a lower cost than the current quotes. And why the reported current and forecast cost of FTTP via NBNCo appears so high. Particularly on what the longer term costs (TCO) are for the different technologies.
NBNCo appears to have selected a construction and design model that massively increases the overall cost to the taxpayer, and that makes moving to FTTP under the Technology Choice Program as massively expensive for most premise occupants or owners.
Anyone here can contact someone on the Senate Committee coming up for this and mention whittlesea as a prime example of how cheap it is for local government? I mean this clearly shows that NBN's method is way overpriced and wrong.
What does the $699 charge include?
That sounds like they're running fibre down the street and the $699 is to connect the premises to that fibre. That's a lot less than it was costing under Labor. More importantly (imo) why is the NBNCo estimating that cost to be ~$2,000?
Could this have been a viable alternative to Labor's NBN? There would have been no need to pay Optus and Telstra a fortune to get out of the market. The NBNCo could just roll fibre down the street and let the RSPs pay, in full or in part, to connect premises as and when the customer ordered a retail service. Pity it wasn't considered by either major party imo. It would be a lot better than the MTM.
That sounds like they're running fibre down the street and the $699 is to connect the premises to that fibre. That's a lot less than it was costing under Labor. More importantly (imo) why is the NBNCo estimating that cost to be ~$2,000?
Under labor the lead in was down to $1,300 per premises.
I think a big problem with the cost of FTTP can be traced back to the prime contractor model, this always inflates costs and squeezes the little guys actually doing the work.
Under labor the lead in was down to $1,300 per premises.
Yep. I remember Quigley's estimate being $1,100 � 1,400 so that fits. I wonder if the $699 is the full cost in Whittlesea or just the part the RSP has to pay.
iirc the cost of passing premises under Quigley was $1,000. That's just $10bn to pass 10 million brownfield premises with fibre. That's got to be close to being viable in competition with Optus and Telstra.
Could this have been a viable alternative to Labor's NBN? There would have been no need to pay Optus and Telstra a fortune to get out of the market. The NBNCo could just roll fibre down the street and let the RSPs pay, in full or in part, to connect premises as and when the customer ordered a retail service.
NBNCo could have chosen to complete head on with Telstra and Optus.
With the Telstra response likely to have been that they announced their own FTTP rollout using their own conduits and pipes and pits which NBNCo does not own and NBNCo being restricted as to what they could run between power poles in areas that actually still had above ground power infrastructure (poles and wires), because the poles were already full in some cases with HFC wires, and some of the pokes were already in private hands or possibly tied up with exclusive usage rights to Telstra or Optus (speculating here).
So Telstra and NBNCo would have followed each other, attempting to build competing duplicate FTTP infrastructure with both of the targeting high demand and high return areas first and the ones each other was targeting.
Who would blink first. At point would NBNCo have stopped their rollout because they were just going to rack up massive losses. Particularly with Telstra having so much infrastructure and ability to retail already in place + their content tie ins with Foxtel and existing overseas links and backhaul. NBNCo could not have competed against Telstra without racking up massive losses that would have had to bring their investment and costs on budget.
TPG, Vocus and Optus would also likely have joined in the cherry picking party.
I think a big problem with the cost of FTTP can be traced back to the prime contractor model, this always inflates costs and squeezes the little guys actually doing the work.
Imagine how much cheaper the rollout would be if the builder and owner of the Network only had to deal direct with their own workforce or direct with contractors contracted directly to them, without all the costs of the middle man process.
That sounds like they're running fibre down the street and the $699 is to connect the premises to that fibre.
That's what I understand from their website. Plan costs are completely separate and on top of the installation cost. I wouldn't be surprised if the installation was at cost or even subsidized to get a larger customer base connected. The profit will be made over the following years in usage charges, and they obviously can charge a premium for fast and business grade plans.
NBN is only promising those speeds to 40% of the country by 2020 or 'as soon as possible'.
he profit will be made over the following years in usage charges, and they obviously can charge a premium for fast and business grade plans.
That's one of the problems with trying to recover capital/installation costs when you are just a wholesaler and not a vertically integrated wholesaler+retailer operating in a monopoly market, and have agreed with some of your main customers to not compete head on for business grade services (or at least appear to have delayed the business competition for as long as possible).
Dealing with an efficient vertically integrated provider should in theory be so much cheaper (economies of scale) and make design/rollout/installation/migration much less risky, and more streamlined, and with less issues, provided you do not have too many outsourced suppliers in the supply chain that have systems that have not been designed bottom up to integrate with yours.
With the Telstra response likely to have been that they announced their own FTTP rollout ...
I'n not convinced they would. If access to the NBN was affordable there are probably better options for Telstra to invest than building a competing fixed-line 'last mile' network. The government could provide some short-term overbuilt protection.
The NBNCo could have created their own duct/pit network, possibly in a deal with the power companies as mentioned by Frank. This was the assumption in the implementation study so we have to assume it's viable.
TPG, Vocus and Optus would also likely have joined in the cherry picking party.
Optus clearly wanted out of the fixed-line infrastructure market so I doubt they would have done anything. I don't know about the others. The thing to consider is the cost of money to the government is a lot lower than it would be to those companies. I think the thing that makes cherry-picking attractive is the high cost to access the NBN. If that cost was lower due to a lower build cost then the business case to build competing infrastructure is much harder.
I wouldn't be surprised if the installation was at cost or even subsidized to get a larger customer base connected. The profit will be made over the following years in usage charges, and they obviously can charge a premium for fast and business grade plans.
Redtrain also wholesale their service, SkyMesh retail it, so not all money goes into their "bucket"
guess if an estate is connected to their fibre, then they have a captive audience for fixed line services and will ammortize the cost over a longer term than nbn� are using
NBN is only promising those speeds to 40% of the country by 2020 or 'as soon as possible'.
The Federal Government only currently requires a finish of ASAP.
NBNCo is currently forecasting a 2020 finish of what they claim is still an NBN. That a 2020 so called finish is possible.
A finish likely leaving the majority of Fixed Line customers stranded on FTTN, as opposed to most of them being on HFC/FTTB or FTTP.
If access to the NBN was affordable there are probably better options for Telstra to invest than building a competing fixed-line 'last mile' network. The government could provide some short-term overbuilt protection.
The discussion is all academic, when one takes into account the additional effort that News Corp would have likely out into destroying any Australian Government or wannabee political group, that tried to bypass or overbuild it's strategic partner (Telstra) and it's Foxtel distribution Network (Telstra HFC), as opposed to engineering an outcome where it's HFC Network was effectively upgraded and futureproofed free of charge by the taxpayer, and protected from competition from having as little FTTP/B as possible, a largely shut down Optus HFC Network, under-provisioned FTTN, and a CVC charging regime and economics and of the whole eco-system that results in most people on the lower speed tiers.
Whens the next Senate committee btw?
Whens the next Senate committee btw
From what I see no further committee hearings this year.
So will likely have to wait till next year, likely March 2017.
*Cheaper* alternative instead that can do the same speeds and achieve much more then what FTTP could ever do for half the price and will last as longer as FTTP. /s
Please, don't start me. Your /s quote is so exactly on song, it's hard to read it without wanting to point out a few facts about MTM (and of course NBN) in language that is better unheard.
Thank you and have a good day
No, no � it has to be Have a nice day. That's what they say in the Bronx shops, anyway.
Here's a toast to Morrow.
For Services Rendered, perhaps?
Leading Australia into an Orwellian future.
We should give credit where due. After all, it's Malcolm The Magnificent who earns an Orwell Award for:
a) Declaring the NBN would take too long, be too expensive, and would provide inferior service.
and then came the true Orwellian Newspeak bit:
b) Confidently asserting his MTM would be Faster!, Cheaper! � and would of course be More Modern!
Most ADSL providers were/are resellers of other telco's DSLAM networks....
Well, before the mergers iiNet, Internode and Adam all had DSLAM's in my local exchange (Blackwood, South Australia) and Internode used a fibre ring that was owned by SA Power Networks (and I'm assuming that they leased dark fibre � an entire fibre or a particular wavelength on a fibre) so that they had very good control over the bandwidth to that and other DSLAMs.
Had a terrible thought on the way home from the shops and looking at the all the nodes we were passing.
When the day comes that nbn� run out of government funds. They will probably just start buying the second-hand DSLAMS and other equipment from iiNet, TPG, Telstra etc and starting rolling out FTTN in ADSL2+ Edition. That certainly has to be cheaper than buying brand new from Alcatel Lucent.
Just when you think you've been royally screwed... here comes another.
I pray it won't come to this. But you have been warned.
But you have been warned.
Watch the Destruction happen, Watch the Liberals blame Labor for it. Watch the Liberals get away Scot free with everything (Thank their get out of Trouble / Jail card for that) and finally watch Australia sadly sink deeper and deeper :(
Liberals (Sarcasm response) "Oh we are the ones who made this mess and screwed it up royally but we wish to blame someone else for that and that someone to lay the blame on is Labor". Labor made the bad choice of rolling out FTTP and it totally screwed up things and the NBN should never have been rolled out like that. We have done a better job at it and had to fix Labors dog mess with the NBN because it was all WRONG WRONG WRONG!" /s
BS. BS. BS BS. High speed really? Why bother saying that when most on FTTN can only get up to 25/5 speeds and nothing past that unless you are super close to the node?
That's because he thinks Australians are idiots and havn't travelled the world to see what real broadband is.
His pitching his speech to uneducated bogans pretty much.
Watch the Destruction happen, Watch the Liberals blame Labor for it. Watch the Liberals get away Scot free with everything (Thank their get out of Trouble / Jail card for that) and finally watch Australia sadly sink deeper and deeper :(
Gina's pet Yowie was on Insiders this morning going on about "Inheriting Labor's mess" christ, what an awful buzzphrase they all just repeat ad nauseam. Complete fraudsters, the lot of them.
When the day comes that nbn� run out of government funds.
They'll just declare it finished and give it to Telstra for a song.
Although Telstra will probably only take the FTTP part.
They'll just declare it finished and give it to Telstra for a song.
Although Telstra will probably only take the FTTP part.
Telstra may not take it at all, remember they have an income stream from the rental parts of the agreements.
They also are getting paid to do the repairs.
They may not want to give up either stream.
Also the loss of maintenance income and being responsible themselves for future maintenance costs, would be a "double negative" on the balance sheet
Faster sooner and cheaper
has evolved into
As soon as possible and forget about the price tag.
What will it evolve into next.
Mission Impossible?
The iPhone 7's are getting close to being in the hands of many Australian.
With their increased and more powerful video and photo features over previous iPhones, the volume and size of iPhone 7 photos and videos is likely to increase once again.
With such a delay in the NBN/MTM and so very premises able to get fixed line upload speeds, the demand and value for higher than current ADSL and Telstra/Optus HFC upload speeds will only increase.
The unacceptable delays in providing higher upload speeds, will become even more noticeable for those that sync/backup and transfer and publish iPhone 7 photo and video content to the internet.
Telstra may not take it at all, remember they have an income stream from the rental parts of the agreements.
They also are getting paid to do the repairs.
They may not want to give up either stream.
Also the loss of maintenance income and being responsible themselves for future maintenance costs, would be a "double negative" on the balance sheet
Oh come on, you know how it'll go.
MT: Hey Telstra we just spent $54B building the NBN and now we're gonna get rid of it.
Telstra: Well you know it's only worth $20B cos of bla bla bla.
MT: Yeah I know so you gonna take it for $20B?
Telstra: Well if we did that then we lose all the money we're getting in our contracts for customer migration, duct rental, repair and all those high maintenance costs of the copper etc.
MT: Yeah I know we'll compensate you for that.
Telstra: Well over the 20 years left thats and estimated maintenance costs thats.... $35B
MT: Yep sounds about right so you gonna take it?
Telstra: Well we'll also need things changed so we can like you know change the CVC prices to whatever we want, not worry about ACCC etc etc.
MT: Yea yea whatever you want, so gonna take it?
Telstra: So for $20B you give us the NBN plus $35B compensation and whatever changes we want made?
MT: Yup thats right, where do we sign?
Then they'll do bugger all maintenance on the FTTN and HFC so it goes to crap like their ADSL and roll out their own Telstra Fibre network for just 2x... 3x the cost of everyones crappy and getting worse NBN connection which people have to change to now if they want something that is usable. And that 20% on NBN Fibre ... just jack up the CVC so either the NBN plans cost more then the Telstra network plans or are so unbearably slow that they all switch over to the Telstra network anyway. Now they have a monopoly again with 100% of the market and were paid billions to do it yay!
Hmmm after writing that and thinking about it, maybe it isn't as much /s as I thought o.O
Australia's politicians really should step up as it holds its citizens back and the country is forced to stay behind on efficiency, productivity and innovation.
FTFY ;)
�The 10 gigabit infrastructure will future proof Adelaide and enable the use of next-generation broadband that, overseas, has become a magnet for entrepreneurs, start-ups and folks working in tech-savvy and creative industries.�
hmm now where is that fool that was on here a week or so ago that fabricated the claim that we all wanted 10Gigabit for everyone and then went on to then tell us we were fools for wanting it?
Sad state of affairs our re-visionless leaders have left us in.
See what i did there? ;)
Telstra may not take it at all
But the Winner takes it all Thanks ABBA(ttP)
NBN we need to talk
About the things you�ve gone through
Though it's hurting me
Like Ross @ABC
Turnbull�s played his cards
And look at where it�s got him
PM everyday
Now he looks away
Who will take it all?
Which ISP�s will fall?
Where is FTTP?
It was our destiny
It was in the plans
Thinking we would get it
We figured it made sense
For owners and those with rents
Fibre to the home
To make Oz so much stronger
He played us all for fools
Breaking promises and rules
Node Lotto, throw the dice
Slow speeds, high pings, high price
Sooner and not too dear
Tell voters what they want to hear
Then Telstra took it all
Morrow and Ziggy took the fall
It's hard to try explain
For years we�ll feel the pain
We tried to keep it KISS
But then they went and stuffed it
Copper�s not the same
We know who to blame
Somewhere deep inside
They know they�re deep in trouble
What more can they say?
But lead the world one day
Whirlpool will decide
The fibre zealots cried
Posters in the know
Not going with the flow
This is not a game
Cos Fibre is the end
For business big and small
The winner is us all
NBN we�ve had our talk
It makes me sad to say this
Hope you understand
Heads buried in the sand
They won�t apologize
Even when they�ve done bad
Counting dollars, dimes and cents
Over confidence
They saw that Telstra took it all
Peak speeds slowed to a crawl
No more FTTP
And scrap some HFC
The Nodes so far away
SAT Pings too high to play
Whose idea CVC?
Suits News Corp�s strategy
And Optus EPL
Doesn�t look so swell
One day they�ll all say
I know we should have listened
To what they had to write
They put up quite a fight
To those that ran away
Or those who never bothered
To educate themselves
Looked after just themselves
Please vote with all your brain
Or it will happen all again
Could this have been a viable alternative to Labor's NBN?
Doing some minimal reading on the City of Whittlesea, I found this from 2004 ...
http://www.buddeblog.com.
The City of Whittlesea in conjunction with Casey, Cardinia, Wyndham and Melton Councils has developed a Melbourne growth council consortium to bring broadband to new development areas. The Municipal Association Victoria has been appointed to manage the consortium. The Consortium requires all new greenfield estates install a conduit network capable of accommodating optic fibre infrastructure to deliver a broad range of telephony, Internet, Video and other data services to local communities. The conduit network will be leased at a low cost to facilitate the entry of a telecommunications operator to establish a high bandwidth network.
NB: the area is on the outskirts of Melbourne and is almost entirely residential estates built in the past 10 years
It doesn't seem like they got too far with municipal FTTP back then, but it seems they did require developer to lay fibre suitable conduits and gift them to the local council, not Telstra. This seems to have made all the difference.
The recipe for success seems to be:
1) Open access conduits owned by local government
2) Mandatory Layer 2 structural separation
3) The big T (and nbn�) out of the picture.
It was only a matter of time before News Corp came out with an article like this. I've listed the negative to NBN parts of the article (most of it:).
The National Broadband Network is going to struggle to turn a profit even after the network is completed in 2020, with industry experts warning that the company building the network is being overly optimistic with its take-up numbers.
Veteran telecommunications company executive Bevan Slattery said that unless the cost of access to the wholesale mono�poly were revisited, customers would be left with arguably the most expensive broadband prices in the developed world.
�Stephen Conroy�s original numbers were completely wrong and since then the financial outcome has had to be reverse-engin�eered,� Mr Slattery said.
�At $35 billion you could have made a commercial return on the NBN but that looks very hard now. Can you imagine millions of users paying $90 a month for a 25 megabits per second service?�
Mr Slattery warned that the utilisation rate of the network was crucial to the long-term viability of the NBN and high access prices could force customers to stick with basic NBN plans or look for alternatives. �Without changing the pricing, NBN Co is killing its own future and at some point the financial model is going to fall over,� he said.
Telecoms analyst Ian Martin, of New Street Research, said the NBN would be �not very� �viable when it was built and warned that NBN Co was being �over-�optimistic� on average revenue per user � a key metric for telecommunications companies � and on �mobile-only take-up.
Almost half of current active users are on a tier-2 service, offering download speed of 25Mbps and upload speeds of 5Mbps.
NBN Co needs to considerably increase the number of premises with an active service to meet its forecasts, especially as the last tranche of the government�s $29.5bn equity contribution runs out at the end of fiscal 2017.
NBN Co needs up to $54bn to finish the project and is evaluating long-term funding options, but critics such as Mr Slattery say market forces may not be in its favour.
NBN Co thinks the CVC price � the charge internet service providers pay to NBN Co to offload traffic from the NBN�s network to their respective networks � will give �telcos flexibility to create their own value proposition.
The cynical tone of the articles closing sentence and choice of topic for the closing sentence (CVC) suggests that the editor/writers "think" that NBN Co's CVC pricing points in the direction of where the NBN is going to come unstuck.
What really stands out in this article
1. There is no reference to the $29.5B price tag that the LNP took for the 2013 election
2. There is no link to lower ARPU, lower take up and lower activation rates due to inferior services from FTTN v FTTP
3. No reference to how a chaotic connection and activation process might be slowing activation and takeup rates.
Also, an attempt to lay all the blame on Conroy/Labor, by not once mentioning Turnbull, the LNP or the strategic review/CBA assumptions in the article, has a strong whiff to it.
Also, an attempt to lay all the blame on Conroy/Labor, by not once mentioning Turnbull, the LNP
Re: my post from Last night
Watch the Destruction happen, Watch the Liberals blame Labor for it. Watch the Liberals get away Scot free with everything (Thank their get out of Trouble / Jail card for that) and finally watch Australia sadly sink deeper and deeper :(
Well it happened before and it's happening again and still is.
Liberal to Labor � Labor it's your fault NBN is terrible. Labor it's your fault that it's a FUD of a project. Labor it's your fault that this country was going to be in debt. Labor it's your fault that FTTP is terrible and is expensive. /s
News corp � It is Labors fault and will always be. The coalition have done an excellent job with the NBN so far and have fixed Labors dog mess with something way better and *Cheaper* that everyone will get a use out of. NBN no longer has any problems of any sort and is on a good stance compared to NBN under labor where mess and misinformation was everywhere /s
Remind me again why people trust the clowns in their suits again?
Also, an attempt to lay all the blame on Conroy/Labor, by not once mentioning Turnbull, the LNP or the strategic review/CBA assumptions in the article, has a strong whiff to it.
The "adults" are in charge acting like a petulant children again.
The LNP likes to dish it out but refuses to accept any consequences.
:0<
The cynical tone of the articles closing sentence and choice of topic for the closing sentence (CVC) suggests that the editor/writers "think" that NBN Co's CVC pricing points in the direction of where the NBN is going to come unstuck.
It's both tech and CVC.
On the tech front, FTTN and to a lesser degree HFC (v FTTP) removes the ability of RSPs and NBNCo over time to upsell to faster speeds ('oh, your internet is starting to feel slow hey? Well, you're only on 25/5 speeds, but we can with a flick of a switch get you 100/40 or 250/100 for $x more per month' is difficult or impossible). Gone are future revenue increase paths.
But then there's the awful CVC charging model that prices in scarcity when none exists. CVC pricing made sense for Telstra Wholesale 15 years ago when they did this for off-net ADSL call collection areas because its aim was to screw over competitors to Telstra Retail ('oh you actually want to deliver speeds similar to Telstra? Well, your customers will pay the same or more for ADSL as Telstra customers...').
It doesn't make sense for NBNCo to do this though as a pure wholesaler. Further, if people find their 100/40 (and in due course for those lucky enough to be blessed with the right technology 250/100) grind to a halt due to congestion, they'll switch to cheaper plans further weakening revenue. NBNCo is cutting off its nose to spite its face...
Yep. I remember Quigley's estimate being $1,100 � 1,400 so that fits. I wonder if the $699 is the full cost in Whittlesea or just the part the RSP has to pay.
My guess is that it's subsidised by a contract in the same way Optus/Telstra HFC installs used to be.
The National Broadband Network is going to struggle to turn a profit even after the network is completed in 2020
On further reflection todays Australian NBN daggers, only have one part sentence that gives any direct writer opinion statement.
1. That it will struggle to turn a profit.
2. That the network will be completed in 2020 just because nbn currently forecasts it will be completed then despite the SOE now having a completion date requirement of ASAP.
"Even if the network is completed" would have been 100% more accurate.
Almost half of current active users are on a tier-2 service, offering download speed of 25Mbps and upload speeds of 5Mbps.
Also, no mention that the 25/5 tier 2 download speeds are UP TO download speeds. The omission of the words UP TO is disgraceful.
So most of the article is just he said, she said "reporting". What a cushy job writing this.
The part of the job writing this article that appears to be to be hardest, is to get opinion out from the he's and she's experts, what to not include, what to leave out, and how to mislead and misrepresent and not step on too many toes.
Imagine how much cheaper the rollout would be if the builder and owner of the Network only had to deal direct with their own workforce or direct with contractors contracted directly to them, without all the costs of the middle man process.
and faster too, iirc Syntheo did SFA in Darwin and when NBN Co directly took over the roll-out there it was rolling out FTTP in record times! The subbies even got paid decent rates too!
The cynical tone of the articles closing sentence and choice of topic for the closing sentence (CVC) suggests that the editor/writers "think" that NBN Co's CVC pricing points in the direction of where the NBN is going to come unstuck.
I think the article is saying that whatever the technology mix the NBNCo won't make a profit unless it is very expensive to use. I agree with that opinion. Sure, FTTP can offer more widespread choice of speeds, but that is what covers the extra cost to roll out FTTP. It doesn't change the underlying point that the NBN will be too expensive.
Also, an attempt to lay all the blame on Conroy/Labor, by not once mentioning Turnbull, the LNP or the strategic review/CBA assumptions in the article, has a strong whiff to it.
I read that as a criticism of the concept of a profit making NBNCo that has existed from day one and continues today. I agree with that opinion too. The problem with the high ARPU required for the NBNCo to make a profit has existed from the start and has not been changed by Turnbull's fiddling with the technology mix. I think Slattery is absolutely right that the NBNCo's products and prices have been reverse engineered to deliver the required return.
1. That it will struggle to turn a profit.
I don't have access to the entire article but from what you've quoted that is the sole point of the article. It is not about the technology and it is not about political promises. It is just about the access prices being charged in order for the NBNCo to make the required return. I really don't see the problem with that. Not every article has to be about everything.
Oh come on, you know how it'll go.
oh, of course that is how it will go.
Telstra will be paid to take the MTM not Telstra paying to take it over
this will mean us Taxpayers will pay money 3 times for it.
- once for the initial build as it will have to be bought onto the budget books as there will be no income stream to pay the either the interest bill or the actual capital on the bonds
- the money to pay Telstra as "compensation" to take it over
- The massive increase in retail pricing due to the deal plus regulatory "holiday"
and then there is the massive incalculable loss of productivity in all areas of at the retail, small business (remember that "The NBN" was going to offer business grade services, not sure how any of those could be done on FTTN", and the provision of Government services, let alone health and ancillary services
What really stands out in this article
1. There is no reference to the $29.5B price tag that the LNP took for the 2013 election
well Bill did say to "forget about the cost"
this must be one of the current "talking points" distributed amongst the Liberals and their supporters
either keep saying "ignore the cost" or not mention "the increased cost" in articles
Not every article has to be about everything.
But every article seems to ignore the increased running costs and lower earning potential of FTTN compared with FTTP.
I don't have access to the entire article but from what you've quoted that is the sole point of the article. It is not about the technology and it is not about political promises. It is just about the access prices being charged in order for the NBNCo to make the required return. I really don't see the problem with that. Not every article has to be about everything.
It's a mixed article (just google "NBN Co faces uphill battle" and open it from there), mixture of blaming v1, MTM etc. Nothing to new for what some here have previously speculated on. Some selected key quotes
�Stephen Conroy�s original numbers were completely wrong and since then the financial outcome has had to be reverse-engin�eered,� Mr Slattery said. "At $35 billion you could have made a commercial return on the NBN but that looks very hard now. Can you imagine millions of users paying $90 a month for a 25 megabits per second service? Without changing the pricing, NBN Co is killing its own future and at some point the financial model is going to fall over,� he said.
Telecoms analyst Ian Martin, of New Street Research, said the NBN would be �not very� �viable when it was built and warned that NBN Co was being �over-�optimistic� on average revenue per user � a key metric for telecommunications companies � and on �mobile-only take-up.
Ovum analyst Craig Skinner is also confident NBN Co�s customer forecasts look reasonable. '�The main driver of take-up of fixed access, as in NBN access, versus mobile broadband, is really the usage of high-content bandwidth services like video,�� Mr Skinner said. �That�s something where we are seeing a lot of growth.��
NBN Co thinks the CVC price � the charge internet service providers pay to NBN Co to offload traffic from the NBN�s network to their respective networks � will give �telcos flexibility to create their own value proposition.
It doesn't change the underlying point that the NBN will be too expensive.
This is also true, although I would query whether other countries that offer 'cheaper' broadband have a state-run subsidy scheme that would need to be factored in.
Having said that though, if a FTTP network was built, NBN would have been a monopoly (with perhaps a few cherry-picked exceptions). But it was switched to FTTN, which is almost as expensive but not nearly as good. This has opened a door to competitors such as TPG with its FTTB offering and the plethora of WISPs to offer competitive services at much lower prices (because there is no need to fund an internal cross-subsidy to regional and remote areas) and leaving NBNCo to charge higher prices to fund the cross-subsidy.
(The fixed wireless space is especially interesting. While 802.11ac offers 30-40 down and 5-10 up (and can actually deliver 100 down and 60 up on consumer-grade equipment), it is claimed that the next generation 802.11ax will offer 10 times this throughput by 2019. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating of course but it could mean life gets messy for an FTTN-based NBN sooner rather than later; NBN may have to become the cheap option to compete.)
But every article seems to ignore the increased running costs and lower earning potential of FTTN compared with FTTP.
Yep, but I think the technology choice is a different issue to the one the article is raising. I think the point of the article applies to both the NBN and the MTM. That is, profitability requires high access prices which can create problems with take up.
It's a mixed article (just google "NBN Co faces uphill battle" and open it from there), mixture of blaming v1, MTM etc.
I don't think it's so much blaming v1 as saying the problem has been there from the beginning. It also acknowledges Turnbull's changes haven't fixed it.
Nothing to new for what some here have previously speculated on.
Yep. I think we'll be stuck with high access prices.
I read that as a criticism of the concept of a profit making NBNCo that has existed from day one and continues today
you would have to be mad to not EDIT think that a 93% FTTP footprint would not make money ?
It absolutely would, personally I wouldn't really be that keen on privatising that sort of cash coz down the line either ? why the hell would you ? people will always need/demand fast broadband access, unless you were selling it to fund some other huge infrastructure project.
but that's my personal view.
the problems started with the nbn when 14 POIs got changed to 121, they became exacerbated by drastically cutting the FTTP footprint, they became entrenched when the cheaper sooner network blew out spectacularly in both time costs and OpEx.
Now there really isn't much hope of a profit making nbn I would agree with that. theres not too much hope of having an asset worth selling either.
That is, profitability requires high access prices which can create problems with take up
But with 14 POIs and 93% FTTP footprint, Business would without doubt be buying nbn connections at high levels with business SLAs and business pricing.
I do work for a business that has paid over $5000 a month for a 4/4 connection.
With FTTP they would happily continue to pay that for a much improved service
they are not getting FTTP however, they 'may' supplement their SDSL connection with a residential class nbn 25/5 connection depending on the congestion issues. they may just stick to their current setup which isn't included in the 18month cut off.
Remarkable � Fibre on Demand for $699 � did anyone else look at their pricing for installation?
This is a real thing, not vaporware? :)
NBNCo reportedly has restrictions in the 2014 definitive agreements with Telstra and Optus, that prevent them from building their own fixed line broadband services to compete with NBNCo's fixed lined services. Preventing infrastructure competition and cherry picking to some large degree.
However, Liberal party policy is to be pro-competition, since competition is best and drives down prices. So they would obviously joyfully welcome maximum competition from the likes or Red Train and other private providers of FTTP. :D :)
you would have to be mad to not think that a 93% FTTP footprint would not make money ?
I think you've got more negatives in there than you intended. I think you mean I'm mad because I think the 93% FTTP NBN would only have made money if the access prices were very high. I think that's the only reason the CVC was created. If that makes me mad then so be it.
The MTM should require lower total funding to build, although Turnbull seems to have made a complete pig's ear of that. That is offset by higher operating costs and lower revenue for the MTM. I don't think that changes the premise of the article though. Access prices have to be very high to deliver a profit in either case.
A finish likely leaving the majority of Fixed Line customers stranded on FTTN,
But the Australian public are happy with FTTN, with it's strong average speed http://www.gizmodo.com.au/201
Calling it NBN is a problem too, why not 21N for 21st century network, since a lot of people still like their telephones, and it should have been made more clear to everyone that this is not just an internet network but a new, improved replacement for the telephone network. :)
I think you've got more negatives in there than you intended
yep, edited now but yes I did somehow ;)
what I am saying is that a 14 POI 93% FTTP network would have been profitable. CVC would have been more fluid and easier to adjust down because the ubiquitous nature of the network the high CVC is just about paying it back quicker. but it can be lowered and still be profit making business.
However now with 121 POIs and a small fraction of the FTTP footprint leaving the majority of the network unable to go anywhere from 100/40, and a large portion of those guys unable to achieve even that .. the network is not attractive to a business the CVC model falls down and really cant be used in anyway other than you describe because we don't have all those businesses jumping on board at business prices enriching the CVC pool with their unused bandwidth.
if you cant see that then maybe you are a little mad. ( hey being a ltitle mad is probably a good thing imo ;) )
what I am saying is that a 14 POI 93% FTTP network would have been profitable.
I'm not sure how the POI decision impacted the profitability of the NBNCo. I can see how it has affected smaller RSPs but the services should still be required by end customers and should still be delivered by the remaining RSPs. The big RSPs almost certainly have backhaul to the 121 POIs.
CVC would have been more fluid and easier to adjust down because the ubiquitous nature of the network the high CVC is just about paying it back quicker. but it can be lowered and still be profit making business.
I don't agree. The CVC was created to generate the revenue needed to deliver the 7% return to the government. It has no purpose other than to raise revenue. The CVC price was only going to be reduced if it raised too much revenue. The problem raised by the article is the impact of the CVC on demand and hence on revenue.
Even with the MTM the RSPs are going to have to buy more CVC capacity to deliver the 'peak time' throughput to deliver the advertised speeds as required by the ACCC. As it stands, they will have to do this before CVC prices are reduced. Either RSPs are going to have to cut their margins and hope CVC costs come down or retail prices are going to have to go up. History shows retail services delivering more for less. It remains to be seen if end customers will pay more for what they think they should already be getting.
if you cant see that then maybe you are a little mad
I just don't accept political bullshit only comes from one side.
NBN are still offering Business Services under MTM.
Thanks. Is the NBNCo offering these business services now or they still in the forward plan?
So is it fair to say there will be a mix of residential and business services in each area as the NBN is rolled out? That would mean ARPU at any time is a mix of business and residential services rather than being residential at the start with business coming later to deliver a boost to ARPU. Are business services going to reduce the CVC impost on residential services?
having contacted Telstra TPG and optus regarding NBN connections for business, none of them offered a proper business grade service on nbn
Yeah, that's why I was asking if the NBNCo offers business grade services now. The RSPs can't offer better SLAs than the NBNCo can deliver. tbh I wouldn't want to offer business grade retail services on the NBN/MTM at the moment.
edit:
Basically, what you said here whrl.pl/ReIeci
Now the serious businesses around town already have !:1 contention services on SDSL etc why would they move to a less stable service ?
I'm not a techie. I don't understand how FTTN is less reliable than copper from the exchange.
I'm not a techie. I don't understand how FTTN is less reliable than copper from the exchange.
I believe it's due to the higher frequencies of VDSL signals.
Also possibly because Telstra would usually (without much trouble) at the very least send a tech out to investigate faults on a residential line that dropped out as little as once or twice a day (my personal experience), whereas NBN will not until >5 dropouts per day. This alone would definitely contribute to the view that FTTN is less reliable than copper from the exchange.
I'm not a techie. I don't understand how FTTN is less reliable than copper from the exchange.
I'm not telecoms tech neither, but I'm guessing that FTTN, like ADSL, is just running OFDM over an existing copper pair, whereas SDSL involves running the service over MULTIPLE pairs, as many as the customer is willing to pay for to get the speeds required for their business use, and might even involve re-patching some extra pairs between the premises and the exchange and installing extra copper within the premises. So if NBN in your area is only FTTN, then it might not provide a suitable business service, and you would have to go with SDSL just as you would have done before your area was "NBN enabled".
Little thought I had but I was at a Meeting today for my NDIS pre � review and the person doing the pre-review said something along the lines of
"So the government goes to all this trouble to create the NDIS that's suppose to help people but they screw up peoples plans in the process / or they don't help them and lay the blame on the end user".
(I forget what it's called but she's works for one of those company's that is partnered with NDIS to help people)
But anyway Replace the above in NBN terms.
So the government goes to all this trouble to create alternate technologies in the NBN rollout and when problems appear they aren't interested in fixing or helping people but rather they are interested in blaming someone else for the mess and issues that rise with it. I.E blaming Labor for their NBN even tho Labors was mostly spot and that NBN 2.0 (Libs NBN) has been a massive failure.
So we kept NBN and rolled out FTTN because we don't like FTTP (Libs terms not mine) but we really aren't interested in anything else besides FTTN being there. Any problems are not mine but yours (Or your RSP)
but we really aren't interested in anything else besides FTTN being there.
That's not fair to say that.
It would have been far easier to mandate a shut down of internet via cable, and move all HFC users to FTTN on the new and superior next-generation NBN. :) If FTTN was the true and only goal that is what they would have done.
Instead they are kindly allowing people to keep their HFC services, modified to NBN, and even allowing the rest of these houses in these areas to connect NBN via HFC instead of telephone copper. That is rather kind of them, wouldn't you say?
NBN are still offering Business Services under MTM. Fine print though that the service provided to FTTP is higher than service for FTTN/FTTB, eg. fault rectification is quicker on FTTP than FTTN/FTTB
So on page 4 they state
Consistent End User experience
NEBS services receive a consistent set of minimum speeds, features and capabilities6.
And the note is
6 Some minimum speeds features and capabilities may not be available for fibre-based FTTN and fibre-based FTTB where the Line Rate of the service cannot accommodate this.
Also mentions the UP To speeds are 20Mbps on FTTN/B and 40Mbps on FTTP and 4x higher frame loss on FTTN/B.
Network Availability Targets
The nbn� network availability is a performance objective of 99.90% across all current access technologies.
I guess the regular drop outs of the FTTN aren't factored into this metric as the network on the fibre side of the node is still functioning and available.
At least the doc does a good job in showing how FTTP is superior in both operation and maintenance.
Thanks. Is the NBNCo offering these business services now or they still in the forward plan?
Though on reflection, the doc I posted isn't really business services, more enhancements for their standard product that I believe exist today. It seems to be standard offering within their product & pricing, but you would expect these to be targeted at businesses. Nor am I aware if there are any contractual or financial obligations on the targets which would also indicate business grade. Would have to dig further.
Thanks. Is the NBNCo offering these business services now or they still in the forward plan?
As far as I know, no they aren't. The current ETA from what I am hearing is the 1st of October though.
Sorry bit off-topic, but it looks like NBN's UK as a roll model is slowly slipping away -
As in a roll out model or a role model?
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
Are they serious? I don't believe this crap! Lets get new MP's who wont scrutinize our rollout of FTTN. Get F***ed
I'm not a techie. I don't understand how FTTN is less reliable than copper from the exchange
It works the copper hard by running much higher frequencies etc over it. FTTN also uses the least reliable part of the copper PSTN, the last mile were all the joints and problems are between the pillar and the premises.
I believe it's due to the higher frequencies of VDSL signals.
It works the copper hard by running much higher frequencies etc over it.
Thanks. It will be interesting to see if they can offer a business grade SLA on FTTN then. It will be equally interesting to see what it does to their business case if they can't. Ooops!
What are these businesses using now? If they're on copper from the exchange then surely they can move to FTTN. This is a massive issue if they can't. I would have expected to hear much more noise about it.
Businesses that cannot get fibre often use EFM. EFM bonds up to 8 pairs and uses an SHDSL carrier to provide a 20/20 service. There will be some on FTTN that are too far from the node to get the 20Mbps up that they currently get. However the problem with replacements for EFM are that NBN Co's current pricing structure means that it is 1.5-2x what they currently pay for a 1:1 connection.
I doubt that will be in any business grade SLA.
It will be interesting to see how that works out.
aiui ... The AVC connects the end customer to the POI. ULL connects the end customer to the exchange.
AVC connects the end customer to the POI with a layer 2 connection, a Telstra wholesale port connects the end customer to the POP with a layer 2 connection. ULL gives a continuous copper conductor between the customer and the exchange with no signals on it. Comparing ULL to AVC is apples and oranges.
RSPs will either have their own equipment in the exchange/POI or get wholesale access to someone else's.
RSPs will either have their own equipment in the POP or get wholesale access to someone else's for Telstra wholesale too. The TW port is the closer analogy in every way. Layer 2 connection from the premises to the POP/POI, then a pipe between TW/NBN and the end customer that is charged with AGVC/CVC.
Either way the AVC only provides that link just the same as ULL.
My addition is superfluous but just to make it clear, AVC is a layer 2 link, ULL is a physical bearer. There was some talk a number of years ago about after network completion the possibility of NBN Co offering unbundled wavelength services, if that service ever eventuates, that will be the same as ULL.
there is no bandwidth guarantees on nbn business like there are on current business grade internet connections.
Thats not exactly true, an RSP can buy TC-2 AVC and TC-2 CVC which is a higher traffic class than regular data (TC-4) which is prioritised over everything but voip (TC-1). The problem is to build an equivalent service to an EFM 1:1 connection is $100 or $200 depending if you use TC-4 for the former and TC-2 for the latter to build the 1:1 20/20 service.
I don't understand how FTTN is less reliable than copper from the exchange.
I'll answer this in 2 parts. Firstly, the higher frequencies degrade quicker, both in terms of distance and with damage to the cable. External factors such as water ingress are going to induce more problems than before because of this. The second part, is probably the most important. This one does cause problems on some exchange based services too though. Naked DSL and NBN FTTN share a similar problem. Lack of the exchange based voltage on the line. The lack of a whetting current. This current provides some charge to break down and prevent the formation of corrosion on the surface of the conductor. Corrosion on Cu causes degradation and stability problems especially for those closer to the node because the surface of the conductor which is where the signal lives is slowly degrading if exposed to certain conditions.
However the problem with replacements for EFM are that NBN Co's current pricing structure means that it is 1.5-2x what they currently pay for a 1:1 connection.
The quotes we were getting for shdsl 20/20 were in the $600+ per month range
quotes we were getting for shdsl 20/20 were in the $600+ per month range
They should go somewhere else then ;) the people I know on EFM 20/20 are paying $299+GST
They should go somewhere else then ;) the people I know on EFM 20/20 are paying $299+GST
it depends on which part of the country you are from I have been given quotes of 7 grand a month for a 20/20
an RSP can buy TC-2 AVC and TC-2 CVC
If you read the NBN special services white papers links from here, they all pretty much say to use the existing services with TC-2, etc.
eg. page 5 of the Megalink and Wholesale Transmission white paper.
AVC Bandwidth options
NEBS gives Service Providers the
bandwidth capacity and flexibility
to control their End User�s traffic
profiles. Each AVC automatically
supports a TC-4 subscription,
which is a �best- efforts� bandwidth
allocation. At order time, Service
Providers may choose an AVC profile
that allows it to carry an amount of
TC-2 traffic to support the provision
of high-bandwidth, business-critical
interactive multimedia applications.
The TC-2 bandwidth capability of up
to 20 Mbps on fibre- based FTTN/B,
or up to 40 Mbps (planned to soon
be up to 100 Mbps) on fibre-based
FTTP, can be used to construct
retail services that match or exceed
the upper end of speeds which
many DSL- based retail Ethernet
services available in the Australian
market today could achieve. nbn
also provides differing modes
of addressing the Traffic Class 2
AVCs at the UNI, including Default-
Mapped, DSCP, Priority-Tagged and
Tagged options.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/cont
Great article from Mark on the latest accc review for mobile roaming.
http://www.innovationaus.com
It covers the NBN mobile backhaul and tower sharing experiments too.
So The question I have, and to be honest I'm surprised no-one else is asking it, is: why aren't all gov funded or partially funded cell towers not open access? Why is any company allowed to profit, at the exclusion of all others, from towers they would not have built without government funding?
If any company takes funding to build a tower, that tower imo should be automatically available for all providers customers to roam onto.
So we kept NBN and rolled out FTTN because we don't like FTTP (Libs terms not mine) but we really aren't interested in anything else besides FTTN being there.
Because FTTP is evil since we didn't think of it first, so we then figured we might get away with touting FTTN as the vital future upgrade if we, like, you know, threw up enough three-word slogans about it.
All this despite the immutable and tragic fact that, more than a decade ago, the coalition was rightly describing FTTN as fraudband.
It covers the NBN mobile backhaul and tower sharing experiments too.
It's all in the article, and I agree a long time coming.
The MVNO market has failed to materialise in this country, perhaps it's now time to look at more regulated roaming in regards to the mobile networks to give (all three of them) a nudge along!!
I've often wondered about the NZ approach to the wireless rollout, as compared to ours.
I've always been of the opinion that the blackspot program, road coverage, NBN wireless rollout and emergency services rationalisation should be revisited a lot sooner than later.
I think im going to write some emails to google and such, its all we can do at this point. Don't look to the NBN for fibre guys, lets try and get others attention neede
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber and going Wireless.
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper, Google is going the same way.
Google will not roll out Fiber in Australia since they are pulling back in USA and the MTM is here to stay.
Google parent company Alphabet is shaking things up at its gigabit internet division, according to a report today from The Information. The unit, previously known as Google Fiber and now called Access, is shifting its focus to wireless technology, and not ultra-fast internet delivered through fiber-optic cables. More pressing, however, is a demand issued by Alphabet CEO Larry Page to reduce customer acquisition costs to one tenth their current level while asking Fiber chief Craig Barratt to cut the unit�s workforce in half, from 1,000 people to 500.
http://www.theverge.com/2016
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber and going Wireless.
And that is why i included and such regardless, means other companies too
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber
Again very selective quoting there Raoul.
Alphabet CFO Ruth Porat has been a staunch defender of the Fiber team, telling Page that its business model is viable and needs more time. However, both Page and Brin have expressed discontent with both Fiber�s overly aggressive rollout strategy and the high cost of deploying fiber optic networks. That's supposedly led to the shift toward wireless delivery.
Earlier this month, The Wall Street Journal reported that Google Fiber would start relying on wireless transmitters to start delivering internet from fiber lines to homes in cities like Los Angeles, Chicago, and Dallas
Still, it's unclear whether the unit can achieve the same gigabit internet speeds with wireless tech that it produces with fiber.
So, even the CFO of the company thinks that the FTTP rollout is viable to continue, but the CEO wants a fast return for shareholders. ie, not thinkiing about long term prospects, just the next shareholder meeting. A bit like the politicians, not caring about what is best for Australia, but what will gain traction at the next election.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google will not roll out Fiber in Australia
I agree with you.
and the MTM is here to stay.
Until the public realise they have been dudded .
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper,
Show me proof.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper, Google is going the same way.
Total and utter fantasy there. Any change from FTTP (apart from a few select rural locations) has been to #nodelotto
PS how do you explain their "failure" to use nodes? Since they are all for copying glorious leader Malcolm's MTM?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper, Google is going the same way.
What the coalition did was to move fttp to fttn.
It's not cheaper and never will be.
MTM has been shown to be the 100+ billion white elephant.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
... the MTM is here to stay.
Where's the money to build it going to come from?
but the CEO wants a fast return for shareholders. ie, not thinkiing about long term prospects, just the next shareholder meeting. A bit like the politicians, not caring about what is best for Australia, but what will gain traction at the next election.
That's kind of what the MTM supporters are saying � the difference is that they are saying this is a good thing .... that they should make money now ...
Don't forget that things must be done in the half-arsed, delayed, Australian way.
How long after America and Europe was it before television was allowed in Australia?
How long was it after the rest of the world before FM radio was allowed?
How long was if after America and Europe before we were allowed to have colour TV?
The answer is many years, in all cases. Any tech that the gov has a hand in is left to lag behind the rest of the world. Our politicians and bureaucrats don't want to lead the world in anything, ever, [unless it's environmental and can take the moral high ground].
The idea that Australia could keep pace, or even worse, lead in a fibre to the home roll out would be to upset years of bureaucratic and political practice and lead to the end of civilisation as we know it. ("We have always done things this way and will not change it now.")
It is not permissible that people should be treated as masters of their own fates; the 'authorities' must keep up the practice that every benefit must be delayed and eventually hesitantly doled out as a favour to the plebs; but not too fast and not too generously; we don't want people to get carried away with excess.
The idea that Australia should bypass the HFC-FTTN-wireless intermediate stage of communications and go straight on to ftth simply could not be allowed to happen. There must be a mandatory delay of about twenty years before they will look at fibre to the home.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber and going Wireless.
This is also partly because the incumbent monopolies are stalling and denying/delaying access to utility poles.
http://arstechnica.com
http://ar
Don't forget that things must be done in the half-arsed, delayed, Australian way.
Hmm, some countries don't have internet at all, nor do they have free speech or personal freedom or any kind of access to uncensored information under their dictatorship. Surely Australia is not so bad. :)
"She'll be right mate" :)
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper
Err no.
In NBN MK1 there was the FTTP, and the huge big satellite to do the rest of the job.
The wireless network was always about filling the "gap".
I predicted that the fixed wireless network was always underestimated.
NBN MK2 have increased it by 25%, I still expect that figure to increase.
It's got nothing to do with FTTP v's MTM, just economics, practicalities and technology advancements in general.
Hmm, some countries don't have internet at all, nor do they have free speech or personal freedom or any kind of access to uncensored information under their dictatorship. Surely Australia is not so bad. :)
"She'll be right mate" :)
I really decry this attitude, like somehow being better than just one other country releases us from the ambition to be better. No country has every become truly great by sitting on it's laurels and proclaiming how great they are, progress moves ever forward.
No we're not the worst, but we're also not the best, and we can always, always be better.
The idea that Australia could keep pace, or even worse, lead in a fibre to the home roll out would be to upset years of bureaucratic and political practice and lead to the end of civilisation as we know it. ("We have always done things this way and will not change it now.")
Turnbull likes to portray himself as I am mr. free market liberal transform government bureaucracy guy.
Yet he ironically destroyed the least bureaucratic exercise our government has probably ever done since federation.
As I've said elsewhere these days I look to the Scandinavians and how they design their societies for inspiration about how to transform bureaucracy, embrace the free market, entrepreneurship and innovation.
They have a lot to teach us in Australia.
Both Labor and Liberal.
a bit off topic but I loved it how the government blamed labor today when they ran out of legislation to talk about.
They could have spent that time constructively talking about the plebiscite that no one wants, or the state of the nbn and how they expect to upgrade the network that they claim to have contracts in for every last bit.
a bit off topic
We love off topic talk in this thread, it's the venting/have a go ya mug thread!!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
the MTM is here to stay.
So very glad I got my FTTP connection thatnks to Labors foresight then. Its here to stay thank goodness! The way that NBN Co is desperately winding back their offerings and going for the cheap arse solutions at every chance means that poor grade broadband is here to stay for most people as well. That is those who get something. NBN Co only have 9 more months to come up with more cash and then its firesale time! Their business case doesnt stack up. The predictions are the MTM is going to be effectively worthless in 2020 and wot be able to turn a profit if it is still in existence.
How much of your cash are you willing to invest in it Raoul?
How much of your cash are you willing to invest in it Raoul?
About $250 a month, but I suspect I'm of the minority!!
EDIT: I'm not Raoul BTW.
Looks like the Libs are succeeding in put even more secrecy around the MTM.
Leader of the House Christopher Pyne will today move that a committee made up of both senators and House of Representatives MPs be established to report to each house on the NBN's progress annually until it is built and fully operational.
http://www.itne
So now the public get to hear once a year about what is happening inside NBN Co? Wow! Thanks. Better than nothing at all right? No doubt Keisler and Co will be spruiking how lucky we are for that privilege.
It just goes from bad to worse. $29.5 billion of taxpayer funds will be gone by the time the first report is delivered, and for the last 3 � years, we know less and less about where it actually went.
Turnbulls folly was supposed to be a two thirds cheaper. Where has all the money gone?
So now the public get to hear once a year about what is happening inside NBN Co?
IMO, most Aussies will changeover, with a bit of help from their ISP of choice, check their bill, and move on?
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs a holiday.
Leave the details to the likes of Quigley and Morrow.
Leader of the House Christopher Pyne will today move that a committee made up of both senators and House of Representatives MPs be established to report to each house on the NBN's progress annually until it is built and fully operational.
How will this get through the Senate?
I hope it needs their vote or we are all stuffed!
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs a holiday.
So you think it is worth 56 ( 54) billion?
So you think it is worth 56 ( 54) billion?
I'm surprised the bill is this low?
The latest figures (now we have a million connections in place) are starting to show the cost's of this decade long process.
EDIT: I lost interest when they duplicated the fibre between Perth and Geraldton. can't recall the year.
the TRUE cost's are beginning to be realised.
EDIT2: Yes, I do think it's worth it.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
MTM is here to stay.
Not a valid indication of its adequacy.
Hmm, some countries don't have internet at all
Not a valid reason not to upgrade to FTTH in Australia.
How will this get through the Senate?
I hope it needs their vote or we are all stuffed!
Well apparently...
http://www.comp
so yeah.
EDIT2: Yes, I do think it's worth it.
And many of us don't. They had a price a timeframe and they couldn't even achieve it. I'd rather have waited a couple of years longer and at least got internet that could be scaled up when needed, not this up to bullshit.
Yes, I do think it's worth it.
Wait, let me get this right.
You think the cost is worth it for building a second rate network using basically obsolete hardware?
Not a valid indication of its adequacy.
Allow me to book you into a corporate seat one day!! Just for the grand final of course.
A weekend of wonder and glory.
And many of us don't.
I get that.
I'd rather have waited a couple of years longer and at least got internet that could be scaled up when needed, not this up to bullshit
My personal opinion is that the NBN should never have been started. I've made that known here and elsewhere.
Give a project manager a goal, what you think is irrelevant.
If's he's good, he'll get the job done, regardless.
You think the cost is worth it for building a second rate network using basically obsolete hardware?
I'm from a radio background, I respect copper AND fibre having a good go at it!!
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses.
The MTM has little chance of achieving that in its present form, as many analysts are saying.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs a holiday.
Anyone who isn't concerned about how billions of taxpayers are spent with little formal oversight should take a holiday, and stay away.
Leave the details to the likes of Quigley and Morrow.
No issue if Quigley was still in charge. Morrow is another kettle of fish. Quigley was trustworthy, Morrow is the opposite.
I hope it needs their vote or we are all stuffed!
Its already been passed apparently.
If's he's good, he'll get the job done, regardless.
Agree with this comment. (As an ex large program manager).
....
However, if you really don't agree with the goal, than bail out early.
I still think this is a waste of the country's resources and also a huge limitation going forward.
No issue if Quigley was still in charge.
I'm not going to look for my Whirlpool post, but I've suggested this.
A few years to reflect from a remarkable guy would be a good move forward.
the TRUE cost's are beginning to be realised.
The TRUE cost of the MTM is a looooooong way from being realised. It will leave an expensive legacy that will take decades to fix. There are many many more billions required to fix this mess.
The MTM has little chance of achieving that in its present form
It really doesn't matter ATM. The residential market demands least cost products.
NBN MK1 got this wrong.
The vast majority of corporate accounts won't use NBN infrastructure for many years yet. Thats the way things are.
Post NBN completion, they might see the $, both NBN and business.
If's he's good, he'll get the job done, regardless.
Except in both cases, they clearly didnt meant project requirements. Changing your requirement and pushing it to a later date and claiming they are on track is the exact opposite of a good project manager.
It will leave an expensive legacy that will take decades to fix.
Hahahah.
Never heard of the leapfrog effect?
Changing your requirement and pushing it to a later date
Hmm. Maybe.
NBN project managers have their job to do.
I suspect picked out on a 6-12 month time period. Not so much different to the real world.
Even if we still had the NBN MK1, would the project managers be a part of the wallpaper, I suspect not.
Even Quigley wouldn't have been that nice.
Geographically large area to cover with low density population centres.
I really wish that example would not be used.
https://aifs.gov.au/publicat
Scroll to the population density map. I doubt much has changed
I really wish that example would not be used.
I agree, if its possible to send someone to the moon, its possible to build a national broadband network in this country.
Sick of the defeatist attitude on why we can't have a proper none of this FTTN bollocks national broadband network.
A likely Telstra shareholder representing Sydney? has decreed that
1. MTM is a white elephant
2. That the MTM is a financial disaster for the Australian taxpayer
3. That the elephant should be donated to the Telstra Zoo
4. That Telstra should be allowed to run the MTM technologies as monopolies
http://fyre.it/jUYeBk.4
Sydney 1 DAY AGO
Just gift the whole white elephant to Telstra and let them run it as a monopoly. That is the only way to get this financial disaster off the back of the poor Australian taxpayer.
4. That Telstra should be allowed to run the MTM technologies as monopolies
Feel like ground hog day element.
IMO, most Aussies will changeover, with a bit of help from their ISP of choice, check their bill, and move on?
yep, but the reason is because they have no choice. Doesn't mean they are happy about it or think it was worth it. It just means they have no other options. I know of several that have just droped their fixed line services and plumped for mobile because the price / contract lengths and stability are not worth it.
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses
it wasn't about that, it was about delivering ubiquitous internet to the entire nation, business AND residential not just 'the masses' and quite apart from that fact, the current nbn ISNT cheap, its MORE expensive than the mark 1 plan and delivering much poorer service and performance.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs more than a holiday
I'm surprised the bill is this low?
its still more than it would have been for a full 93% FTTP network , so it could have been lower, with a better result, why are you so happy with the current result ? it wasn't sooner or cheaper, it was less effective ?
My personal opinion is that the NBN should never have been started
But, you think the current incarnation is "worth it"
Give a project manager a goal, what you think is irrelevant
yes, the goal was "ubiquitous scalable network" and Quigley was delivering that.
then they changed the goal to "25/5 for all asap" .. and apparently that's what we are getting .....
It really doesn't matter ATM. The residential market demands least cost products
and its not what they are getting
NBN MK1 got this wrong
When you compare it to NBN MK2 it in fact didn't get this wrong, it did a better job of it, for less, in the same time frame.
The vast majority of corporate accounts won't use NBN infrastructure for many years yet. Thats the way things are
that's because the NBN infrastructure wont be the best option anymore, had they all had FTTP there would be no reason to use any other tech, its the best delivery method for data, and business plans would have demanded much higher premiums and helped revenue and performance .... As it is there are better options than an nbn connection for a business that wants fast reliable internet.
Never heard of the leapfrog effect
yes, that was what NBN MK1 was doing .. leapfrogging outdated tech straight to a modern tech.
refuse to believe brownfields fibre is $4k+.
its not, not even by the current nbns reckoning
eople in this thread still believe in project fox and refuse to believe brownfields fibre is $4k+.
That's actually slightly dishonest, $4k+ is the current figure including PSAA and Lead-in lease payments, the FTTN and HFC prices not only exclude those figures, are quoted as estimated average at 2020. You are comparing 2 entirely different metrics and including payments that are hidden in opex for the other technologies
That's actually slightly dishonest, $4k+ is the current figure including PSAA and Lead-in lease payments, the FTTN and HFC prices not only exclude those figures, are quoted as estimated average at 2020. You are comparing 2 entirely different metrics and including payments that are hidden in opex for the other technologies
I believe this, but how is this confirmed?? Is there some fine print in the Corp Plan I've missed?
Interesting to see when the pilot is done the cost of trialing new FTTH deployment technology.
I believe this, but how is this confirmed
For the costs as now vs 2020 MrMac is the better source as he is the one that pointed that out, as for the Telstra payments, in some of the leaked documents where technology costs are compared there's a note that OpEx is lower due to less payments being made with the longer time to completion, it's also been stated in estimates/select committee and the fist CP where the $4400 figure first appeared that it was done by amortising all off the Telstra/Optus payments into the CPP for FTTP
http://www.channelnews.com.a
NBN Co boss Bill Morrow has said the benefits of the NBN far outweigh the $49 billion price tag.
�By 2020, we�ll be the first country of our size to make broadband access universal,� Morrow said.
Is that a goal, a stretch target, or an even more Heroic prediction or assumption?
Of our size?
Population, or geographic size?
What does he mean by universal broadband?
What is the definition of universal broadband (if there is even an agreed one?)
That's a bit like Samsung claiming that in 4 years time they will have the best phone on the market.
It might be a goal, or a vision, but nothing can be promised or foreseen. And one that there is a high likelihood that won't be achieved.
I'd like to see what happens if anyone suggested including that in the prospectus or marketing material accompanying the sale or privatisation of NBN/MTM or some of its Assets.
Morrow must just be referring to his Wholesale company (NBNCo) making peak speed up to 25Mbps MTM products of one kind or another available to 100% of Australians, if they can afford it, via RSP's retailing it.
Note: UP TO speeds, and only peak speeds, not minimum speeds and no guarantee or conditions on the retailers who actually sell and deliver the final product will deliver a service that delivers even 25Mbps download speeds as a minimum, with the latency, consistency and reliability you or your household or business requires, during critical times that you need to use your broadband.
When you can attempt to just cover all the stragglers by Satellite, (with its slow data usage limits, high latency issues, and congestion during peak periods) Morrow's clearly deluded prophetic self-award in advance for his Organisation, speaks for itself. IF the Satellite option fails or has limitations, they'll no doubt be a range of fixed wireless or mobile broadband options they can conjure up to meet their universal access claims.
For premise that are not getting the minimum speeds or the minimum speeds they need, how long before RSP's will be actively marketing the addition of mobile broadband to your network in times to top up the speeds required to give you more consistent and higher bandwidth on your network when you want it and need it?
Talk about business and FTTN before?
WHam.
Morrow is the typical snake oil salesman. He must think that everyone is an absolute mug to buy his lies.
Cannot believe these shysters are still allowed to continue.
Talk about business and FTTN before?
Another victim of fraudband.
Not surprised.
Note: UP TO speeds, and only peak speeds, not minimum speeds and no guarantee or conditions on the retailers who actually sell and deliver the final product will deliver a service that delivers even 25Mbps download speeds as a minimum, with the latency, consistency and reliability you or your household or business requires, during critical times that you need to use your broadband.
Kept on a just over ADSL2+ network for how many years?
Any news on when the optical fill in will start :)
All that copper will be replaced with new optical sometime soon?
Any policy news on real network upgrades?
Another victim of fraudband.
and What do NBN do about it?
An NBN spokesman said its on-site testing on August 31 found there was no fault with the NBN network.
Sorry we're just the wholesaler, nothing wrong here!
*wipes hands with it*
Sorry we're just the wholesaler, nothing wrong here!
*wipes hands with it*
NBNco has become the arrogant corporation.
No ethics no responsibility.
The Coalition/LNP has made NBNco an odious entity.
It really doesn't matter ATM. The residential market demands least cost products.
NBN MK1 got this wrong.
I must disagree, if it's $1600 per premise for FTTN vs an investment of $2900 per premise for FTTH, you will still earn a strong 2 or 3% p/a return (at least) on the latter! :)
2% annual return is $58 annual profit from the $2900 investment, after costs, and that seems more than doable.
As a wholesaler to make $58 profit per customer per annum, when they are charging at least $35 per customer per month to RSPs... seems MORE than doable. :) Hell they could even make 4% or 5% on their FTTH investments!?
Do MTM costs even factor in costs of repairing old copper and old HFC?
For the costs as now vs 2020 MrMac is the better source as he is the one that pointed that out, as for the Telstra payments, in some of the leaked documents where technology costs are compared there's a note that OpEx is lower due to less payments being made with the longer time to completion
All CPP should be inclusive of lease payments. Unfortunately NBNCo excluded the detail from the Corp Plan 2017, so we can't confirm if it remains the same as Corp Plan 2016 where the lease across fixed line was $700 and wireless was $800.
Edit: To be clear of CPP in Corp Plan 2017
FTTP BF $4,400
FTTP GF $2,100
FTTN $2,300
HFC $2,300
WF $4,600
From a financial accounting perspective, all lease payments are categorised in the OPEX (as they should be). So when reviewing the financial report due this month, and also the HFC leak, they are included in the OPEX fee. So in case of Optus HFC overbuild, later delivery means lower OPEX over the same time period.
Additional info for interest:
As you stated, CPP is based on weighted average over the length of the build to 2021, so I don't believe we can do a fair comparison between FTTP BF, which is finished and actuals @ $4400, to FTTN being a forecast in mass @ $2300.
FTTP GF is currently running @ $2600 actuals, but forecasted average to be $2100, suggesting an ongoing efficiency of $700+ (once you factor existing higher average). These same efficiency's are NOT included in the FTTP BF CPP, but if they were then you would also expected them to be significantly lower. I also believe it hasn't had a significant impact reduction of actuals based on excluding large MDU's from FTTP rollout with FTTB for example.
CPP also excludes common CAPEX, such as IT systems and transit network. We know that the requirement to include FTTN/HFC/FTTB has blown out the IT Systems spend by $1b+. I'm not aware of cost impact for transit network to FTTN as I have looked in detail at it vs FTTP. Also excludes any net losses, so where FTTN take up is slower than FTTP and OPEX costs are higher, this is not included either. CPP also excludes initial trial arrangements, but we don't know the exact scope. The formal trials were of smaller scope under FTTP than the "trials" of FTTN, for which we also don't know the exact cost.
CPP also excludes any costs incurred post deployment, eg. capacity. (edited for emphasis). It certainly excludes any costs for upgrades such as G.Fast, additional transit capacity, additional nodes in the future etc.
To top it all off, without the clear breakdown we can not be certain on what costs are included under which categorisation. We can assume that all activation costs should be capitalized and included in the CPP, but we also know that the activation process and way of billing would be very different between FTTP and FTTN.
TL;DR Take CPP and comparison of them with a large dose of cynicism. It's political rather than good financials.
NBNco has become the arrogant corporation.
No ethics no responsibility.
and no plan, just like their "masters".
They both claim to have a plan, but cannot describe it in detail and all those "plans" seem to involve is cutting costs NOW and disregarding the extra spending that will need to be done in the future as a result of the cost cuts
The Coalition/LNP has made NBNco an odious entity.
just like themselves, parent/child
All CPP should be inclusive of lease payments.
I am curious about not just the lease payments, but have nbn� also placed the costs for, the backhaul links, the FANs, the POIs etc, in other words all the initial build to establish "The NBN" onto the FTTH part and not factored any of that onto the FTTN/HFC parts of the build.
I wonder if there is any way to actually know
The residential market demands least cost products.
...measured over the lifetime of the products?
Do MTM costs even factor in costs of repairing old copper and old HFC?
The old Strategic Review 2013 did hint at the Operating Expenditure in the bn's for the different HFC, copper network scenarios on page 17.
Any really new expected 2020 numbers in public after the copper fill in policy?
I wonder if there is any way to actually know
NBN state that cost of transit networks is excluded from CPP, so that should include up to the FAN's. But they also state the below
While the initial footprint is largely complete, the shift to the multi-technology mix presents new footprint, capability and capacity requirements and therefore the transit program continues to adapt its plan to support each technology.
So again, we don't know the exact cost increase that FTTN/HFC has generated in this area
Do MTM costs even factor in costs of repairing old copper and old HFC?
They are not included in CPP, but should be included in future OPEX and Common CAPEX
Edit: Actually will slightly recant that. Costs incurred during deployment (such as HFC repairs/replacements) should be included in CPP. Cost incurred post deployment, eg. ongoing repairs & maintenance, would not be included in CPP.
But again, we don't know if NBNCo are including costs such as replacement of copper/removal of bridge taps in activation's. I assume once your service is activated, then any ongoing costs including rectification of said activation, would not be included in CPP
But again, we don't know if NBNCo are including costs such as replacement of copper/removal of bridge taps in activation's. I assume once your service is activated, then any ongoing costs including rectification of said activation, would not be included in CPP
So HFC design and fill in costs or copper nodes in the same area for new builds, later sub divisions?
The obvious self-interest aside, Netflix's talk of abolishing monthly caps seems laughable in Australia considering that we've been plagued by measly download limits from the very beginning of consumer broadband � particularly at the hands of Telstra � while most Americans have enjoyed unlimited downloads from day one
There are no speed guarantees for end users on the NBN, so it remains to be seen what some fibre to the node customers will get stuck with.
�At the absolute best, that�s not very often, it gets to 40 but it can be down around five,� Mr Chambers said. �It�s just a complete disaster.�
But NBN said it had investigated and found no faults on its infrastructure and any problems needed to be �resolved with his provider.
Mr Chambers said he had no issue with his provider iinet, which had logged 200 ��touches� trying to help increase the speeds and ensure consistency, but he believed the issue was NBN fibre-to-the-node piggy-backing off old copper networks and the local telecommunications pit.
�It�s like putting a Formula 1 engine in a 1970s Torana and expecting fantastic results,� he said.
�When I first moved I couldn�t get a connection at all. With the (lower plans) it would drop out altogether and I was forced to go to the top.
�Everyone is on ADSL and they�re scared to change �because they�ve been fighting for years to get ADSL working and you can�t get back on (if you switch to NBN).
�I�d be better off paying $50 a month for 12Mbps than $130 a month for the NBN, at least it would be consistent.�
I'm going to put another tin foil hat on today and make a prediction as bold as Morrows Australia leading the world when it comes to providing Universal Broadband Access by 2020.
At some stage, NBNCo or the LNP, will start to attribute low take of higher speed tiers and low or delayed MTM activation rates on the media, social media and online forums for this issue, for discussing, publicising and reporting the MTM speed and other performance issues, and disruption and risks during activation/migrations.
Maybe at some stage the LNP will actually use the failed NBN/MTM wholesale/retail model as the justification for creating geographic MTM vertically integrated monopolies and claim they have solved the blame game and found a better model.
Not much point in having a choice of retail RSP's when they are all serving the same poor quality product.
Adam Turner's warnings you can expect to pay more under the NBN than with your ADSL, will do wonders for the NBN activation rates.
These days many Australian Internet Service Providers are offering cheap 1TB and unlimited plans, but only due to the fierce competition to win over customers before the NBN reaches them. ISPs are playing a high stakes game of musical chairs, knowing that when the NBN reaches your door and the music stops you'll probably stick with your existing provider. Once you get off DSL, expect to pay more in order to stay on the same deal via the NBN.
In my opinion ALL countries already have universal broadband.
It's called geostationary satellite internet. The NBN includes a geostationary satellite internet component. So in that sense it isn't providing us anything new.
We have had universal broadband since at least the year 2000.
ISPs are playing a high stakes game of musical chairs, knowing that when the NBN reaches your door and the music stops you'll probably stick with your existing provider. Once you get off DSL, expect to pay more in order to stay on the same deal via the NBN.
Adam doesn't provide us with any evidence for his claims but we will see.
I personally think that network neutrality is a very important thing for a free and open internet.
We have had universal broadband since at least the year 2000.
There is no worldwide agreement on what universal broadband is.
Anyone claiming that they will be Numero Uno in something that is neither agreed on, or clearly defined, is taking a material reputational and professional risk.
Particularly for something as fast evolving as broadband and the digital evolution.
Shh don't mention upload.
The NBN model basing itself on the UK model of le`fail uploads.
In my opinion ALL countries already have universal broadband.
In some countries it is illegal to use satellite dishes.
How would you be sure that In all countries where it is legal to use satellite dishes, that broadband internet is available (even at a high price)?
Particularly for something as fast evolving as broadband and the digital evolution.
Particularly when you are not rolling out the fastest/ best technology available and others around the world are.
At some stage, NBNCo or the LNP, will start to attribute low take of higher speed tiers ... on the media, social media and online forums for this issue, for discussing, publicising and reporting the MTM speed and other performance issues, and disruption and risks during activation/migrations.
Got it! I was looking for an attribute to instead of an attribute on. Nice Kevin Rudd style sentence, he sure is a wordsmith cramming two paragraphs of information into one sentence. ;) :)
Nice Kevin Rudd style sentence
Damn. My Ghost writer has been outed! :)
Node* :)
Sssh, don't tell anyone that. It is the next generation faster, cheaper, better national telecommunications network that is future proof and offers exceptional performance, remember. :)
Damn. My Ghost writer has been outed! :)
:D :)
and What do NBN do about it?
An NBN spokesman said its on-site testing on August 31 found there was no fault with the NBN network.
Sorry we're just the wholesaler, nothing wrong here!
*wipes hands with it*
At least when you were on ADSL (which many, many people still are) you could initially establish through your provider that he fault did not lie on your side of the connection to your house and your provider could log a fault with Telstra to look into the problem.
As you say Rocky with this mess that is MTM nbn�, as the wholesaler, have full authorisation to effectively do nothing. DISGRACEFUL Malcolm, just disgraceful!
In some countries it is illegal to use satellite dishes.
They could just MacGyver a coat hanger though couldn't they?
NBN state that cost of transit networks is excluded from CPP, so that should include up to the FAN's. But they also state the below
While the initial footprint is largely complete, the shift to the multi-technology mix presents new footprint, capability and capacity requirements and therefore the transit program continues to adapt its plan to support each technology.
I take it this means the HFC CMTS sites are not always co-located with the originally planned FAN sites?
I take it this means the HFC CMTS sites are not always co-located with the originally planned FAN sites?
problem is who will know outside nbn�?
they have a record of saying one thing in an answer and then months later announce the very thing they denied.
Be this FTTN or HFC overbuild or anything else.
I am afraid I also have doubts about their claims of no "FAN back" costs being incorporated into FTTP per premises costs.
With the transparent nature of their books no real scrutiny can be done. We rely on "final presented numbers" and even then it seems that anomalies are picked up which makes me doubt the rest of their data and claims
It seems that combining old and new tech is something the LNP have fallen in love with...
http://abc.net.au/news/2016-
The money shot is...
"So the plan is for us to buy a nuclear submarine design and then convert it to a piston submarine," he said.
"Now no-one has ever done that in the world and in fact when I talk to submarine experts they say it is so ridiculous, so we're being conned."
It seems that going against technical advice is what their superpower skill is!
It seems that combining old and new tech is something the LNP have fallen in love with...
http://abc.net.au/news/2016
Mr Smith said if the Government's real agenda was to use nuclear technology, it should be up front about it.
So what's the Government's real agenda with their NBN/MTM child?
South Australia Premier Jay Weatherill hit out at Mr Smith on Twitter, calling the businessman a "sad old man".
"Looked like it [the advert] was scribbled on the back of a serviette after a long lunch � #sadoldmen," Mr Weatherill tweeted.
A back of the serviette play from the NBN dissing handbook.
A group of prominent businessmen, including Dick Smith and John Singleton, have taken out a full-page ad in The Australian newspaper, suggesting the public is being conned over the submarine project.
How long before a prominent group of businessmen take out a full-page ad in The Australian, suggesting the public is being conned over the NBN/MTM Project?
Any such group won't include Malone or Hackett.
It is much better to equip them with a cheaper diesel engine, and then upgrade them to nuclear in the future when they really need the extra power and endurance. </s>
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
It is much better to equip them with a cheaper diesel engine, and then upgrade them to nuclear in the future when they really need the extra power and endurance. </s>
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
plus much less room for crew, equipment and weapons = more cost savings
plus much less room for crew, equipment and weapons = more cost savings
They could also remote pilot them over the FTTN network. Unless it rains or during peak usage times.
"So the plan is for us to buy a nuclear submarine design and then convert it to a piston submarine," he said.
At the 2013 election Libs showed how enthusiastic they are for recycling.
- Buying decades old junk copper and reusing it.
- And anyone remember their plan to buy leaky old boats off people-smugglers?
They are more in love with recycling than the Greens.
I predicted that the fixed wireless network was always underestimated.
NBN MK2 have increased it by 25%, I still expect that figure to increase.
It's got nothing to do with FTTP v's MTM, just economics, practicalities and technology advancements in general.
Absolute rubbish. It was never 'underestimated'. It was very much a calculated quantity designed to serve a particular purpose of economics of scale verses performance. Under NBNv1, that is.
Under the MTM, its purely over used to try and justify poor decisions of the current governments poor policy on UN-communications.
My personal opinion is that the NBN should never have been started. I've made that known here and elsewhere.
And with this statement you also make it known that your comments are biased to this tone.
But blind Fredy could see that. If one is that short sighted or unable to see that the NBN was, is, and has always been a required infrastructure build, then one also does not possess the sense it takes to know WHICH form the NBN is best implemented in.
And with this statement you also make it known that your comments are biased to this tone.
As always.
A likely Telstra shareholder representing Sydney? has decreed that
Not at all; that was apparently co-authored by young Anna, who along with her former associate Mitch has been trolling for News Corp giving us the benefit of her NBN/MTM inexperience for a while now.
It may be too much to expect MSM reporters to comprehend technical issues, but there should be at least some minimal level of industry understanding, and objectivity, if they are going to be portentously introduced as 'Communications Writers'.
They could also remote pilot them over the FTTN network. Unless it rains or during peak usage times.
Perhaps they can pay a levy to cross-subsidize CVC charges while remote piloting on NBN FTTN. With that $50 billion they got.
It seems that going against technical advice is what their superpower skill is!
I think they are more concerned with appeasing doners...
They would do whatever the technical advice said if it came from people who gave them lots of money.
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
Now why does that sound so familiar?
Oh, I know, it's exactly the same old line of tarradiddle that was 'created' to deny the bleedin' obvious (FTTP the only fit spec from now right up to the end of the century) while trying to assert the impossible (the MTM will be Faster!, Cheaper! and Sooner!).
So the same thinking, from the same people, who have committed RAN sailors to using obsolete diesel subs against every potential foe, who by then will be entirely equipped with nuclear powered boats.
And exactly as with the MTM, don't even think of asking about the (real) cost of such political idiocy.
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
They offered the public a "Pup" and they tumbled into it.
News Corp and Telstra have slayed em.
At least when you were on ADSL (which many, many people still are) you could initially establish through your provider that he fault did not lie on your side of the connection to your house and your provider could log a fault with Telstra to look into the problem.
As you say Rocky with this mess that is MTM nbn�, as the wholesaler, have full authorisation to effectively do nothing. DISGRACEFUL Malcolm, just disgraceful!
It won't be long until users frustrations are taken out on the big green targets. Just watch it.
What a farce, I did dare MTMco to hurry up and roll out more nodes. It just self exposes how crap it really is. If they don't, well there goes the revenue. If they do, more anger.
Damn if you do, damn if you don't. I have the popcorn ready. Its sad really our tax payer dollars will pay for this crap. But to me the 56 billion dollars is gone, its a white elephant write off.
If Bill morrows or Malcolm thinks the younger generation will swallow his bullshit, then his really mistaken. We will remember this farce for our lifetime and the LNP will pay in each and every election in the future. Sure you got away in 2013, 2016. When the old flaps that don't understand technology and networks and die off, the young ones will remember. No LNP votes for me, state, local or federal ever again.
So the LNP/MTMco better hurry up and at least satisfy the "Sooner" requirement.
We will remember this farce for our lifetime and the LNP will pay in each and every election in the future.
Please do. Some of us, older types, have spent a lifetime helping to build all of this cool computer stuff we now enjoy and they've gone and purposefully wrecked one of our more important infrastructure projects for this century. Then they justify it all with what are effectively straight out lies. Its incredibly depressing and they're getting away with it. For the time being.
We will remember this farce for our lifetime and the LNP will pay in each and every election in the future
In Europe -Nearly all players consider that FTTH is the end game!
Vodafone Group expands gigabit fibre-to-the-home networks across Europe
Vodafone Group expands gigabit fibre-to-the-home networks across Europe
Wonder what Vodafone execs make of Morrow now?
Some of us, older types, have spent a lifetime helping to build all of this cool computer stuff we now enjoy and they've gone and purposefully wrecked one of our more important infrastructure projects for this century.
All I can say is guys...
read my post
whrl.pl/ReIdPC
See how the Scandinavians do things. How they try to bring society along with these things.
We gotta start referring to the outside world and talk about how things work elsewhere. If we want change.
Change might not happen as fast as we want but you can make change happen. Obama said.
Look at what Sanders got as concessions with Hillary and you will realize we can change things.
The Scandinavians have very entreprenuerial mindsets and technological societies. We all should start researching and learning about them.
That way we don't give up this lifetime work of guys like bassomatic to bad use.
Or even guys like Malone or Hackett. If they still browse these forums I hope they read it too.
Things need to start changing for the better.
In Europe -Nearly all players consider that FTTH is the end game!
They're all very silly wasting all that money. Turnbull & Morrow said no one needs it, copper will do just fine ;-)
And we are sitting at 40th for FTTH global ranking. We ain't going up that chart anytime soon !!! :-((
It's a combination of the following:
Creating a new company from scratch
How does that affect the FTTP rollout cost but not the FTTN one? Nope, fail.
and a GBE at that (meaning higher levels of incompetence).
And becasue it's a GBE it has to be incompetent? Nope, fail.
High labour costs.
Looks at NZ, Singapore. Nope, fail.
Prime contractor model with sub sub sub sub subcontractors
sub sub sub heh? got any proof? Or is this a case of inventing bullcrap to support a spurious argument?
Excessive amounts of red tape.
Again, somehow this magically affects the FTTP rollout but none of the other tech choices??
Geographically large area to cover
Fail. The actual rollouts happen in discrete urban areas. I'll let you in on a little secret. Australia is one of the most highly urbanised countries in the world. Pro tip there for you.
low density population centres.
Again, no different to urban rollouts in the US.
When the old flaps that don't understand technology and networks and die off, the young ones will remember. No LNP votes for me, state, local or federal ever again.
Funny how views formed now could last a lifetime.
Nearly 50 years ago, I formed the same view of the LNP over the Vietnam war and conscription of 20 year olds who did not have a vote at the time, and they still haven't ever received my vote as a result of that.
BTW, it is not just old flaps who dont understand technology and networks, and conversely there are plenty of old flaps who probably know more about technology and networks than a lot of the young flaps on these forums as well.
I would suggest it is not an age thing.
Fairfax's Matthew Knott generously awards Turnbull a 6/10 for the Communications subject on his Year 1 report card today. (See my NBN report card far below)
Hits: The rollout of the NBN has continued to speed up since Mitch Fifield took over from Malcolm Turnbull as Communications Minister. The number of premises able to connect to the NBN more than doubled from 1.2 million to 2.9 million and the number of premises with an active NBN service doubled. The government argued, with much evidence, that NBN Co is running more efficiently than it was under Labor in its early years. Mercifully, the culture wars against the ABC � which ran hot under Tony Abbott � have subsided under Turnbull. No more Q&A boycotts or complaints of leftie lynch mobs. The government gave the ABC a welcome $13.5 million in the May budget. This allowed it to keep investigative journalists employed and run its digital services.
Misses: During the election, the AFP staged dramatic raids of the office of Labor senator Stephen Conroy and the home of a Labor staffer to hunt down the leaker of documents from NBN Co. The AFP ran the operation independently of government but it reflected badly on Turnbull by suggesting he had something to hide and gave a second life to reports of problems with the rollout. It got worse when NBN Chairman Ziggy Switkowski wilfully breached the election caretaker conventions by weighing into public debate.
Verdict, challenges ahead: 6 out of 10. The NBN rollout is moving quickly but the trickiest part is about to ramp up: the controversial fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) rollout using existing copper wires. The government's critics will be quick to seize upon any examples of problems with FTTN, given it is Turnbull's pet technology.
For the NBN, I'd only give Turnbull a 1/10, given the wide range of NBN/MTM problems not mentioned in the Fairfax report card, including:
(a) blowout in costs,
(b) delays with announcing what is going to happen with the Optus HFC footprint and reaching any contractual agreement with Optus on design/build of the Optus HFC part of the HFC
(c.) negative changes to the MTM mix (less HFC/FTTP/FTtB and more FTTN/Satellite)
(d) peak hour congestion
(e) disruptions to phone and broadband service continuity
(f) view that the NBN/MTM in it's current form can no longer make a profit without
(i) a hike in wholesale prices for entry level Tiers, and/or
(ii) RSP's increasing their CVC purchases, and passing the increased cost on to their retail customers
both of which will likely only delay activation rates further, and result in even more people ditching their fixed line for mobile broadband or using other Fixed and Wireless non-NBN supplied Broadband solutions (if available at their premises).
(g) no revision to the 3 year Construction rollout made publicly available
(h) grandiose claims from Morrow on Australia becoming a world leader with the NBN by 2020
(i) NBN RSP's having no NBN Co contractual restrictions, on them marketing NBN plans based on Data usage, hiding the speed tier options, cajoling retail customers onto only the bottom 2 speed tiers, and not offering the 50Mbps download speed tiers.
(j) Optus reportedly forcing some of it's Optus HFC customers off Optus HFC on 90 days notice over a year earlier than what was meant to be an 18 month window to migrate (this may be a positive, but the lack of transparency on it is a negative)
(k) Declaring HFC RFS prematurely, with Telstra not offering NBN HFC yet in declared RFS NBN HFC areas
(l) NBNCo performance at the Senate Estimates
(m) delays in Business Grade Service offerings
(n) giving high priority to underserved areas
(o) Technology Change (deterrant) program failure/success
(p) design of FTTN
Fairfax's Matthew Knott generously awards Turnbull a 6/10 for the Communications subject on his Year 1 report card today
I actually think that's a fair call, so long as you judge Turnbull by the low standards of a politician. They've kept a lid on NBN expectations within the general public pretty well.
If you were Turnbull and knew what you'd done, getting a public 6/10 from the Fairfax media would seem like an excellent result.
They've kept a lid on NBN expectations within the general public pretty well.
That is until last week Morrow
1. Reminded the general public about the cost blowouts and the price tag, by pleading with everyone to forget about the price .
2. Was doing himself, NBNCo and the Federal Government absolutely no favours and massively over promising, and exaggerating on the NBN with the following quote.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
Mr Morrow said that, when the NBN is completed n 2020, Australia will be a world leader in broadband. "We're making so much momentum and well on track to be the first continent to have a fully connected universal broadband that has 25 megabits a second or better," he argued.
"On the speed, 40 per cent of the nation when we're done will have access to a gigabit per second, and that's better than better than any other nation will be at that year 2020."
The NBN rollout is moving quickly but the trickiest part is about to ramp up: the controversial fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) rollout using existing copper wires. The government's critics will be quick to seize upon any examples of problems with FTTN, given it is Turnbull's pet technology.
To be fair(ish) this reads about right. They've got a fairly ambitious ramp up ahead of them, which the revisions to the Statement of Expectations seem to suggest they're worried about meeting.
They've also got the pressing and monumental task of convincing someone to fund this mess for an eye watering amount of money.
If (when) it all comes crashing down it'll be on Turnbull's head.
by pleading with everyone to forget about the price .
Completely different tune before the election eh -
such as reinstating Labor�s previous fibre-to-the-premise policy � would result in significant writedowns for the $49 billion project.
Bringing fibre much closer to consumers� homes can be more expensive to deploy
�But why would you spend another $400? It would have to be if the demand for speed was greater than what FTTN could provide and people would be willing to pay for that. That�s when you can overcome that $400 cost difference,� Mr Morrow said.
It would have to be if the demand for speed was greater than what FTTN could provide
But how would they really know demand given that it is supply driven market?
I'm not going to pay for more speed when the crappy copper cable is not physically capable of providing that speed and/or the backhaul / CVC is insufficient to keep up the speed.
What do they take us for?
I'm not going to pay for more speed when the crappy copper cable is not physically capable of providing that speed and/or the backhaul / CVC is insufficient to keep up the speed.
What do they take us for?
the overriding problem is that the "crappy copper" can mask poor CVC purchasing decisions by RSPs.
Also given that most RSPs are supplying modems for FTTH/B that show very little data on the connection itself, the RSPs can blame 'crappy copper" for congestion in their own segments, be that lack of CVC or other backhaul
It is amazing to watch some of the RSPs on an almost weekly basis announce capacity upgrades to some POIs, more customers maybe, more use by individual customers maybe or a combination of both probably.
Bur others will just hide behind the old "sorry, that is all your copper can deliver" as you struggle to get a throughput of 12/0.4 on your 25/5 connection, one that you initially signed up to for the "up to 100/40" connection but have since downgraded
- Geographically large area to cover with low density population centres.
FTTP is better than FTTN -precisely- because of this point. FTTN suits high density where copper runs are short.
That's not what we have in Australia.
If (when) it all comes crashing down it'll be on Turnbull's head.
No, when it all comes crashing down (as it is designed to do) they can all shout "LOOK, WE TOLD YOU IT WAS A BAD IDEA! LABORS FAULT!"
A Federal Coalition goal under Abbott was to destroy the reputation of both Labor over the NBN.
With the good showing of Labor in the upper and lower house at the 2016 Federal Election, and the marginal result that a Turnbull led LNP got, it looks like it will be way easier to destroy Malcolm Turnbull's reputation over the NBN than destroy Labor's reputation because of it.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
The committee, or any subcommittee, has the power to call for witnesses to attend hearings and for documents to be produced; to conduct proceedings wherever it deems appropriate; and to sit either in public or in private.
It further has the power to �consider and make use of� the evidence and records of the NBN committee if appointed during a previous Parliament.
What is the point now? We all know that a bunch of nbn� execs just turn up to say "Commercial in Confidence" and "We'll take that on notice".
No justification, no reason, no business case, and in about a year... no money.
What do they take us for?
Australians.
An American who knows best for our country.
Also given that most RSPs are supplying modems for FTTH/B that show very little data on the connection itself
I'm running FTTB (perfectly fine for interim NBN on short, protected copper) and my iiNet supplied VDSL modem shows max connection available, current sync, and other stuff like noise, attenuation etc (not at home to check).
Are the other modems worse in this regard to showing basic info?
It is amazing to watch some of the RSPs on an almost weekly basis announce capacity upgrades to some POIs, more customers maybe, more use by individual customers maybe or a combination of both probably.
FYI � RSP CVC upgrade provisioning time can get to under 60 mins, based on some feedback I saw on Reddit. I specifically asked if there were limitations as to how often RSPs could change their CVC capacity at a POI, and the timeframe for that request to be actioned.
But others will just hide behind the old "sorry, that is all your copper can deliver" as you struggle to get a throughput of 12/0.4 on your 25/5 connection, one that you initially signed up to for the "up to 100/40" connection but have since downgraded
What RSPs are doing this � do we have examples to name and shame?
cheers
What RSPs are doing this � do we have examples to name and shame
Telstra business told me this when trying to sign up to 100/40 plans for a few different businesses around town, that the fttn wont support it , that we would be lucky to get 50/20 (they had only seen a handful of premises that could achieve that sync rate), that they strongly recommend going no higher than 25/5.
But when I said that I wanted it on a new service so as to not effect their current service, we have to wait until the entire town is RFS (sometime late next year) because there are not enough techs to install a new line AND activate nbn on it. lol
Sure glad this nbn is sooner and faster
FYI � RSP CVC upgrade provisioning time can get to under 60 mins, based on some feedback I saw on Reddit. I specifically asked if there were limitations as to how often RSPs could change their CVC capacity at a POI, and the timeframe for that request to be actioned.
yes it can, but a lot of the larger RSPs are taking weeks to provision any increase, guess requests have to go from "complaints" to "network" to "accounts" for a business case to enable the switch on of more CVC
Vodafone Group expands gigabit fibre-to-the-home networks across Europe
Minimum speed on offer on their fiber network in Ireland is 350 Mbps....
What is the point now?
I'm not sure whether this will replace the existing Senate Committees or whether they will run concurrently. I'm not even sure if the previous Senate Committees carry over to the new Parliament or whether they have to be reformed. I've not seen any conversation or comments regarding the previous Senate Committees. I'm sure someone on here will have the knowledge or will provide the links.
The joint committee will be interesting though. The makeup of the joint committee will be:
- 7 Government members/senators
- 7 opposition members/senators
- 1 non aligned member
- 1 Greens senator
- 1 senator to be nominated by a minority group or independent senator
So the 'balance of power' of the joint committee will be decided by those last three members of the committee.
The Turnbull Government will have no control over the appointment of the Greens senator � obviously. I think that it is safe to assume that it will be Senator Scott Ludlam, given that the link I got is current, that he is still the Greens' Communications Spokesperson. (http://greensmps.org.au/portfolios) I have the utmost respect for Senator Ludlam based on his track record, and certainly in regards to his contributions in the NBN/MTM in the previous Senate committee hearings. His attendance at the hearings certainly wasn't for 100% of the time of the hearings. That goes along with Greens members wearing many hats though.
It therefore depends on whether the Turnbull Government can tip the balance of power of the joint committee by manipulating negotiating the appointment of the 1 non aligned member and the 1 senator to be nominated by a minority group or independent senator. That seems to be a little up in the air as to how they are 'appointed' from those nominations. Obviously this is open to horse trading.
The other really interesting unknown is the appointment of the Government members/senators. It only takes one right wing member of the LNP and Abbott supporter to be sitting in the joint committee throwing some spanner in the works to destabilise Turnbull's Prime Minister-ship (as the PM is the real person responsible for this shocking mess) with the provision of some transparency of the nbn� and the MTM roll out demonstrating aspect(s) that will show to the Australian public what a disaster the nbn/MTM is.
So it will be interesting to see how the balance of power of the joint committee comes out in the wash, and if the balance leans away from the Government, what real power or strategies the joint committee can exercise to bring real transparency to the farce that is the nbn� and the MTM roll out for the Australian people.
Or will we still just be chugging glasses of water?
Popcorn anyone?
... Yet the government and their lapdogs act as if we are not of the the same planet where all these truly fast internet developments are happening. They act as if what happens "over there" has no effect on us. We know the world and its people are much more fluid than in the past, so it is no great feat for businesses and individuals to move where the quality services are located, leaving Australian once again with a brain and talent drain.
The joint committee will be interesting though. The makeup of the joint committee will be:
7 Government members/senators
7 opposition members/senators
1 non aligned member
1 Greens senator
1 senator to be nominated by a minority group or independent senator
For me, one of the more alarming issues is the quorum rules, which effectively state that a quorum requires at least one government member present. So there could be a case where all the non-gov't members show up with the moment the gov't members leave (or just don't show up) there isn't a quorum and no business can be done.
Pretty easy way to scupper any meeting, deposition or other work that would be embarassing to the Gov't, isn't it?
For me, one of the more alarming issues is the quorum rules, which effectively state that a quorum requires at least one government member present. So there could be a case where all the non-gov't members show up with the moment the gov't members leave (or just don't show up) there isn't a quorum and no business can be done.
Yeah I could just imagine. The microwave just went 'Beep' to say that my popcorn is ready, I've got a jug of water on my desk, my glass is half full, my adsl1 connection is working, the Parliamentary stream is coming through to display the Committee room on my PC monitor, Senator Conroy or Senator Ludlam has just asked that awkward question of Bill ......... and then the solitary single Government member of the Committee just ups and walks out!
Suddenly the glass on my desk is half empty! :(
Pretty easy way to scupper any meeting, deposition or other work that would be embarassing to the Gov't, isn't it?
Except opposition and other party members are still government members and im pretty sure Ludlam would still be there and he counts as one. Therefore business will proceed as usual if they followed their own bloody rules.
Pretty easy way to scupper any meeting, deposition or other work that would be embarassing to the Gov't, isn't it?
I dropped an email to Senator Rowland on this very point with a suggestion to overcome this likelihood, along the lines of a greater number required to form a quorum if no gov't member is in attendance (perhaps as large as all other members? Works in the case of a walkout, too?) .
"We're making so much momentum
'momentum' isn't much good when its gained from falling into a pit. because theres a) the bone jarring crash when you hit the bottom; and b) then there's the whole difficulty about pulling your arse out of the pit.
the only real question at this point is the exact point at which the mtm goes kersplat; my guess would be it's when the equity funds run dry? it cant be too much longer, and then things really will be difficult for Morrow/Fifield/Turnbull.... earnings of FTTP would have kept a lot more work in train than the earnings of FTTN will...
Except opposition and other party members are still government members
That's not my understanding of who constitute "government members".
That's not my understanding of who constitute "government members".
Nor mine. Opposition and other party members can be classified as parliamentary members though.
What is the point now? We all know that a bunch of nbn� execs just turn up to say "Commercial in Confidence" and "We'll take that on notice".
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
As soon as I've finished my 7 year Hacking Degree through Hackers-Anonymous-College-Degrees-R-Us I should be able to get into nbn�'s system and find out if they can reach their goal of having the network completed by 2021.
Nor mine. Opposition and other party members can be classified as parliamentary members though.
That is undermining the system to the extreme i swear... Honestly if there were no government members then they should not have even been selected and stripped of the position.
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
Yeah well not like many of them operate in Australia unless you count white hat ones.
I love Bill Morrow, saying we'll be ahead of the world in 2020, when we have our sub 100mbit to the masses, when the bulk of the world already has gigabit access.
Not sure what 'vitamin' supplements he's taking.
Not sure what 'vitamin' supplements he's taking.
I'm not sure either, but what i am sure of is which end he's taking them in. tsk tsk
FTTP is better than FTTN � precisely � because of this point. FTTN suits high density where copper runs are short.
We all know it, just as every sensible and intelligent person with a gram of industry knowledge knows it.
Which neatly encapsulates the deliberate ignorance of all the respective members of the political class, combined with the base corporate interests of an MSM baying to protect their legacy business models.
Not sure what 'vitamin' supplements he's taking.
$$$$$$
what do you want me to say?
$$$$$$$$
we lead the world
$$$$$$$$$$
what do you want me to say?
It's the classic circle jerk. The MT says BM is doing a wonderful job, BM says MT is doing a wonderful job. BM can turn around and say, "the right honourable prime minister says I'm good at what I do", MT can turn around and say "A leading Telco industry executive says my approach is the right one". Absolutely no substance to either statement, but the gullible will buy it.
I'm sure someone on here will have the knowledge or will provide the links.
Sorry just dropping in on this thread after dealing with Telstra on misleading and deceptive representations in regards to BGP routing while the TIO is not interested (as expected) and over in the NAS thread about a vendor who thinks it is okay to loose an entire volume because a hard drive develops 2 bad sectors during resync. Yes, I have been busy. {shaking head in disbelieve}
Anyway to your question. The composition of the Committee.
The 7 Government members/senators have essential no contribution of any significance. They will deliver the Dorothy Dixer questions which will make the NBN executives will change like chameleons from "c-in-c" to "I am happy that the Senator asked the question". One word, useless. No scrutiny and/or accountability whatsoever.
The balance of power (or must I write effectiveness) is not in the group of 3, it is the total group excluding the Government members/senators. The skills and knowledge of the members of these 10, will make or break this committee. If there are a few that don't know the difference between a iron and modem, you got a problem.
Personally I would never agreed with this committee proposal. I think both houses have each a very own role to play and I do not believe in joining the houses in a committee. Smells too much like a DD style approach.
But as every negative also has its positive side. I think raising the amount of members is consistent with the never ending growing problem which is called NBN. I expect still a lot of developments in the next years, most of them negative and a solid, bit larger, committee is not a bad idea. The MTM-policy will become a massive problem in this government term.
Personally I think a lot depends also on the chair. Was not charmed with the previous chairs and I sincerely hope that the next chair is more keen to guard the rights of the houses. That "c-in-c" business must stop. As Bill Morrow said, all contracts are rewarded. NBN Co does not have competitors so full transparency must be enforced.
For me, one of the more alarming issues is the quorum rules,
Agree, that is a concerning weakness and I think for this reason Labor should not accepted the governments proposal.
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
The question is not if this has not already occured, the hacking I mean. In hackers circles it is very much a standard practise to hold on to documents until the right moment when the hack is non financial initiated. We will see. My grandmother always said "if the crows have to tell it, it will come out".
I should be able to get into nbn�'s system and find out if they can reach their goal of having the network completed by 2021.
Social engineering a staffer is less time consuming. Believe Griffith University got some nice undergraduate courses on security. Highly recommended. If you are serious, which on second thought, I think you are not. :)
Recycling an old strategic tactic?
But the group was dismissed as �sad old men� by South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill, who rubbished their proposal to go nuclear. �[It] looked like it was scribbled on the back of a serviette after a long lunch,� Mr Weatherill tweeted on Tuesday.
The parallels with NBN are just stunning. Wasn't the NBN drawn on the back of a serviette? Who came to that rumour? Everything that is innovative is drawn on the back of a serviette. :)
Good for business relationships in SA. Calling three millionaires "sad old men".
The 7 Government members/senators have essential no contribution of any significance. They will deliver the Dorothy Dixer questions which will make the NBN executives will change like chameleons from "c-in-c" to "I am happy that the Senator asked the question". One word, useless. No scrutiny and/or accountability whatsoever.
Presumably the hearings won't be any longer than the previous ones were and with that many of them they can take turns asking useless questions taking up most of the session doing so. That will be "good" government at work.
If you are serious, which on second thought, I think you are not. :)
I wouldn't know the first thing about hacking. The closest I come to that is watching it in movies. I do note that hacking takes somewhere between about 15 � 30 seconds and they always type really, really fast. ;)
Good for business relationships in SA. Calling three millionaires "sad old men".
Yep ... the same old tactic ... play the man (or in this case men) and not the ball.
My first encounter with the 'back of a serviette' trope was on the West Wing episode, 'Inauguration: Part 2 � Over There' (2003).
President Josiah "Jed" Bartlet: "They're saying I'm rewriting the Constitution on the back of a napkin. They're saying on Fox that a guy who couldn't run a local sheriff's department wants to send troops around the world. They're saying it's liberalism with a grenade launcher. But they're not saying it was badly written, so that's something. And they sure as hell know I was serious, so that's something else. Congratulations, folks, we've got ourselves a doctrine."
It shows our politicians liked watching West Wing, I suppose. It's something to say when logic, facts and reason aren't on their side.
"Hey truck driver, if you see a competitive advantage in roads then pay for it yourself and don't expect the average taxpayer to risk their dollars for it."
They pay a premium.
"Hey cafe owner, if you see a competitive advantage in on-tap water then pay for it yourself and don't expect the average taxpayer to risk their dollars for it."
Let's not compare broadband to water anymore. There's a highly disproportionate economic benefit from basic broadband compared to high speed Gbps use. I'm sure I could find an analogy in water use but this isn't useful.
I'm part of the Engineers without Borders program and have travelled to many a places in need of better infrastructure.
I applaud you. I was merely trying to point out the folly of this idea of fast internet access as a human right in an economic context of a developed nation (and well many others) where the benefits of it are disproportionate among the recipients. Everyone here can show their hand explicitly in a way I can't as a journalist within a public discussion.
Half my time I come in here playing devils advocate and come under attack as a presumed sympathiser of one approach or another and it does me no good as I just get labelled... and I understand why that happens.
BS. I was too succinct for you, clearly. It's both about the law firm and their client/expert witness. I can assure you being the latter that your idea of paying for it yourself is a fantasy.
But I'm assured you'd agree that relevant return is higher for your law fim/expert witness than the average taxpayer whose money is at risk. If we have a situation where the FTTP model was taken to the people as "Hell we want to do this as a nation building exercise for everyone and why might take a huge bath on and let's not call it a GBE and put it on books then we could all be at peace about it. No? That's not what happened and now, sadly, we're all fighting tooth and nail behind technology types. I don't think either approach was ever going to be viable economically but I don't think that matters so much now. I've taken a huge risk putting even that on the table.
Another accidental double post. Apologies.
These are the people that need your Centrelink and other social services most. Imagine the uproar if we simple held up our hands and said "no you're not eligible for help because you don't have broadband at speed X or Y".
The places with the best broadband happen to have the most generous social welfare benefits. Scandinavia. One place Finland in fact is about to have basic income for everyone by a conservative government. They see it as an investment in jobs and growth.
People will have high wages and higher income tax revenue to support their welfare state.
And I am always upset that journalists in this country never consider Scandinavia and compare our social and economic policies too theirs. It should be front line and centre.
They are first when it comes to entrepreneurship, labour market flexibility, high wage economies and first when it comes to social welfare, first when it comes to r&d investment, they have put astronauts in space, have space programs and investment in science and technology.
We should be thinking how we make our society more like Scandinavia.
Hmm idk Obama?
"In plain English, I'm asking [the FCC] to recognize that for most Americans, the internet has become an ESSENTIAL part of everyday communication and everyday life."
At what level of bandwidth? And in a country like the US (with JSOC opertaions and other preoccupations) how much do you think he really meant it and how much was rhetoric?
The places with the best broadband happen to have the most generous social welfare benefits.
That could reflect a lot of economic factors. We could be at the backgammon board a long time.
At what level of bandwidth
The FCC in America have stated that for internet to be classified as broadband over there it must be 25/3 MINIMUM. Lucky them alot of them have access to 100+ whenever they want both up and down.
I hope that you are healthy for your whole life. Can't have the taxpayer risking anything on the PBS for your health. Pay for your medication yourself.
You can't compare health circumstances to legal circumstances that easily. People don't have the same amount of control over, say, the onset of cancer due to (possibly genetic inheritance (as they do a commercial legal dispute....*mostly*. If I step off the curb and a car runs a red light and knocks me down (yes, I know you wish for that everyday) then I have little control over that. Nor any other malady.
True broadband speed may make the difference in the movement of evidence in my case. I can't argue with that. But still, I have a choice in legal rep and that may provide an advantage.
Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here and I fear that it paints me a certain way that's not helpful and quite a point of agitation in this thread. I just try to get to the place where there is an alternate view up for debate.
The FCC in America have stated that for internet to be classified as broadband over there it must be 25/3 MINIMUM. Lucky them alot of them have access to 100+ whenever they want both up and down.
Hmm... there's an odd congruence here. That's exactly what the NBN guaranteed yesterday at the ACCANect forum (we discussed the condition of the copper for FTTN 100/40 and future G.Pon add-ons the other side of the FTTN cabinets)
And why is it a slum? What could possibly help?
Well, according to the logic presented here it could substantially improve the quality of life in such places. Hey may be it will in a long term way. The point I was trying to make was that nobody would invest in such a place as commercial going concern. That's not to say that there isn't substantially large pieces of middle ground in a place such as Australia. I was just questioning this strident notion that broadband is an international human right when commercial interests stand to gain much more than those in extreme poverty and direct benefits to them are, at least at the moment, quite opaque.
And don't get me started on the whole Broadband is an essential thing. No matter how much we try to explain how it's essential and how we will need it now or at some point in the future, you probably won't listen
That's not true. I appreciate its importance. If someone tries to tell me it's important as water, I might get a bit animated for various reasons but I strongly disagree with your characterisation of my view . Right now, do I think that either version of the way to this better/faster connectivity was best served as placing the NBN as GBE was a good thing? You can speculate on that.
Do I think that $70bn+ (which it would have been) for Gbps speeds for the last mile (hell last 12 feet in some cases) when RSPs would provision based on demand was a good idea? You can speculate on that.
Do I think either was going to become viable? Speculate on that.
Do I think we all go a clear picture when these decisions were made? You can speculate on that.
Various people posting here are just saying that effective use of IT has reduced the cost to government of delivering services.
Yesterday I was at a conference that discussed accessibility in great detail and there was a great deal conversation about retaining channels that our ageing population requires. ( just saying)
If the cost to government is down then why has the cost of living increased so much to the point most of us plebs are living in borderline poverty.
Mr Morrow will also say Australia is on track to becoming the first continent to be fully wired up to broadband.
Satellite, Fixed Wireless and Mobile Broadband are going to be really peeved if he actually says that. Magiced away as though they do not exist as the only option, or only cost effective option, for millions of their customers.
Bleh. Being at the speech I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method. Interested in feedback from this community.
True, no bickering, the Indian Government spent $3 billion on extending their fibre network
That's great!! Was this last mile infrastructure?
My first encounter with the 'back of a serviette' trope was on the West Wing episode, 'Inauguration: Part 2 � Over There' (2003).
Thanks for quoting that one as I had already the strongest belief that many politicians source their inspiration, actions and speak from TV. You just proved that this is the case.
You can speculate on that.
You can speculate on that.
Speculate on that.
You can speculate on that.
That is what I call a post with no purpose.
I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method.
I speculate that he was referring to a uniform last mile access method that does not include FTTP per definition. At the end of the day NBNv2 moves us further away from a uniform last mile access method. NBNv1 was more uniform then NBNv2.
Interested in feedback from this community.
That he will get. But his feedback will be in relation to why NBNv2 created a digital divide in Australia and no uniform last mile access method.
Everyone here can show their hand explicitly in a way I can't as a journalist within a public discussion.
Rubbish, on Whirlpool you can express your opinion anonymous. But the fact is that you are one of those journalist that believe are at the centre of a discussion which they remotely do not even understand. In that context they have a desire to be "balanced" while they don't understand that what is discussed. The key problem is that they cannot deliver the argument to their "balanced" approach and ending up speculating to readers. Right?
Half my time I come in here playing devils advocate and come under attack as a presumed sympathiser of one approach or another and it does me no good as I just get labelled... and I understand why that happens.
No, I'm terrible sorry to say, but you do not understand why that happens.
If you want to play devils advocate to create "balance" in a discussion, you need to become prepared to the table and understand the arguments for each side in much detail. You can't play advocate or create "balance" without that knowledge. The community is not going to provide you or any other journalist with feedback on speculations.
Same applies to Bill Morrow. He thinks that in his high paying job that he can use the community as a reflection board for feedback on poor decision making. Not sure what tablets he is on, but if you can manipulate as company the general public on what they require on broadband speeds, you showed utterly contempt to that same community. Don't expect that the community is going to be collaborative. The only feedback will be a long never ending streams of complaints. The TIO can desperately attempt to put them on the carpet to the benefit of the government by blaming the RSPs but at the end of the day it will not function. And it will less function by 2020. And even less by 2022.
Be an investigating journalist, collect the facts and arguments and then try to be the centre of the world and play advocates devil. If you give me (or anybody else here) an argument, they are more than happy to listen to you. If you deliver the argument they will not necessarily agree with you, but confident they respect your opinion. But don't start to give long lists of questions which all end with speculation and no arguments.
Balance in journalism is created by collecting valid arguments. It is not created by made arguments, invalid arguments or arguments placed out of context. They must miss that bit in the undergraduate journalist course at the Unis. And sometimes, when you collect all the valid arguments, you come to the conclusion that there is no balance. But that doesn't matter, don't try to seek balance for the sake of it or by compromising the argument.
No, when it all comes crashing down (as it is designed to do) they can all shout "LOOK, WE TOLD YOU IT WAS A BAD IDEA! LABORS FAULT!"
Well we all know that's what they'll (try) and do (yet again) :P
With the good showing of Labor in the upper and lower house at the 2016 Federal Election, and the marginal result that a Turnbull led LNP got, it looks like it will be way easier to destroy Malcolm Turnbull's reputation over the NBN than destroy Labor's reputation because of it.
Pretty much. Assuming they can get to 2019/20 they'll have had the reins and been making changes for 6 years, which does kind of make it harder to blame the last guys. The removal of the dates from the SoE though certainly mkaes it looks like they're worried about hitting even that date though... Fun times! :D
Well we all know that's what they'll (try) and do (yet again) :P
Indeed, the only bit they don't understand is that this invalid argument receives less and less momentum over time with the voter.
Pretty much.
My view is that Malcolm is already damaged collateral due to his period as Telecom Minister. The effects of that period of poor decision making, is and will become an even bigger piece of concrete around the legs of the government.
It will no little joke or an inexpensive one. On the latter, we will feel this very severely both on wasted money on the project but also as wasted income.
https://nlkabel.nl/wp-conten
Let's work the numbers from table 1 as it is clear that this table has been accurate until now.
The calculation is made on 0.3% GDP gain on every doubling of speed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- � Speed in Mbps � 15.3 � 30.6 � 61.2 � 122.4 � 165.4 - � Gain GDP in % � 0.0 � 0.3 � 0.6 � 0.9 � 1.0 - � Gain GDP in USD$ � x � 4.69b � 9.38b � 14.08b � 15.64b - ------------------------------ ----------------------------------------
If we would have followed the demand of the End Users, our country would have gained 43.69b on GDP by 2020. This is were demand drives innovation and economical growth. Sadly we don't have that income now under the MTM-policy. At best we get a gain of 0.3% in 2020 which represents 4.69b on GDP.
The simple digest of it. FTTP is the way to go as the increase in GDP will pay back easily the investment of the past. From company perspective, it is no issue at all to attract private capital which delivers earlier opportunities to pay off the government investment or for further deployment or upgrade.
That is where NBN Co's and this government story doesn't add up. It is claimed that the MTM-policy will create a lower peak government investment. This is rubbish as by now, if the government had pursued a full FTTP roll out, private investors would have queued at NBN Co's front door on revenue growth. Now they standing at somebody's else front door.
Bill is shouting now at the investors in front of somebody's else front door that he got the best deal. He THINKS that those investors will fall for the same marketing tactic as the Australians did. They will not. They know he has a plan to upgrade the network, he is building now. But the problem is he doesn't have a plan where to get the money from. He HOPES that they don't notice the negative cashflow in 2020. He HOPES that none of those investors read Whirlpool. He also HOPES that those investors are just as ignorant on the subject as everybody else.
When business decisions are made on hope, everything is lost.
if the government had pursued a full FTTP roll out, private investors would have queued at NBN Co's front door on revenue growth. Now they standing at somebody's else front door.
Indeed, sadly the government decided to fix something by destroying it.
I wouldn't invest in such a hog of a network in a million years even if I had billions of dollars at my disposal.
What good is it for any business that relies on the internet to be productive when the internet relies on a pile of old rot.
What a massive failure for our country.
:0<
Do I think that $70bn+ (which it would have been) for Gbps speeds for the last mile (hell last 12 feet in some cases
I notice that the journalist is still quoting the rubbish espoused by the LNP shills rather than that evidenced by Quigley. No credibility. Still not worth engaging with obviously.
Bleh. Being at the speech I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method. Interested in feedback from this community.
That's the biggest load of shit the guy is saying.
Lets see the policy was a "Multi Technology Mix", please explain how its uniform when its bits of FTTN, bits of HFC, bits of everything else and "Up to"?
Its anything but uniform.
Its anything but uniform.
Its like wearing a gumboot on one foot and a sneaker on the other to do a long distance running marathon and expecting to last the distance and win.
Bleh. Being at the speech I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method.
Australia has not attempted a uniform last mile access method. Well it did try under labor, but now its anything but uniform. it cannot deliver uniform services, it cant even deliver consistent service.
They pay a premium.
To use it, not to build it
Half my time I come in here playing devils advocate and come under attack as a presumed sympathiser of one approach or another and it does me no good as I just get labelled.
oh sure, just trying to play devils advocate, the reason you are here is your published story, which was filled with inaccuracies, was misleading, and concluded with a clear bias to the current policy. that's about as far from devils advocate as you can get. now you are trying to make out that you are an unbiased reporter just trying to show the 'other side' of the argument. Sometimes however the 'other side' is just so wrong that ANY playing 'devils advocate' shows a clear bias.
Show me for example the 'devils advocate' position for Adolf Hitler
People don't have the same amount of control over, say, the onset of cancer
they could eat healthy, unprocessed foods, avoid ingesting toxins into their bodies, exercise.
I step off the curb and a car runs a red light and knocks me down
You could have been paying more attention to the road situation, I have survived several cars running red lights and never been knocked down before (just playing devils advocate of course)
Do I think that $70bn+ (which it would have been)
No it wouldn't, you see you cant even do the absolute basics of reporting. That's evidence gathering and checking. that's why your opinion on here is not regarded in great esteem. You appear to think you sit in some position above the dirty mass who cant be as objective as you. But you only post in the middle of the night , often incoherent babblings as if you are inebriated. You are about as far from objective as left is from right.
Go and see if you can provide your evidence of what sticking with labors FTTP footprint would have cost and demonstrate you can actually do this most basic of required skills for your chosen profession.
Saw this , looks like the EU is doing the right thing, pity the POMs and Brexit will exclude them. We need a policy like this. Turnbull and Co we are getting further behind !
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
Each time Morrow comes up with his wonderful crock of crap such as "NBN will put Australia in a 'leadership position"
Another country proves what an embarrassment he is and how much of an embarrassment we are when it comes to internet access.
*sigh*
looking at Lord Lightbulb's noodle network mess is this the sign of things to come:
Superloop plans to create a gigabit wireless end user service for enterprise customers that will bypass the NBN, leading to speculation that other wireless providers may follow them and create problems for NBN�s business model by offering high-speed bandwidth at a lower cost. Superloop announced it would buy wireless and IT provider BigAir Group for up to $205 million (CommsDay, p1; AFR, p20 & p48; The Australian, p21).
Each time Morrow comes up with his wonderful crock of crap such as "NBN will put Australia in a 'leadership position"
Another country proves what an embarrassment he is and how much of an embarrassment we are when it comes to internet access.
*sigh*
Morrow reminds of of a presentation we had at work once on the "business" reforms and the expected outcomes
They were showing all sorts of graphs with the "slopes" all heading in the "right" direction
Towards the end something twigged to me about one of the graphs
They had swapped the 2 axis which had made the slope match the rhetoric, but it actually showed the reverse, things for the business, us and the customers would be worse
When I showed my direct manager he was all "oh shit", no-one in his group had noticed it, all they saw was the slope of the graphs matching the rhetoric and they were pleased, they never examined what was shown to them.
Then their was a massive recall of the handouts etc from the presentation, just to remove embarrassment it would seem as they continued down the path and the place went to shite for all concerned
Graphs can be wonderful tools, but unless you can actually read and understand them and not just look at pretty pictures they sure make an easy way to gloss over or hide the actual facts
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
Shows up how totally lame Turnbull's Fraudband deployment is. We will probably find better more consistent internet speeds in the slums of the world than what we are installing here and getting told it is world class (rofl).
Then their was a massive recall of the handouts etc from the presentation, just to remove embarrassment it would seem as they continued down the path and the place went to shite for all concerned
Its amazing how far they would go to pull the wool over peoples eyes, especially to the laymen folks.
Graphs can be wonderful tools, but unless you can actually read and understand them and not just look at pretty pictures they sure make an easy way to gloss over or hide the actual facts
Beauty is eye of the beholder, deception is in the detail of that beauty.
Its like wearing a gumboot on one foot and a sneaker on the other to do a long distance running marathon and expecting to last the distance and win.
Can I say that the problem would be with the last mile?
I come in here playing devils advocate
The devil doesn't need an advocate.
Any chance we could give the LNP and Morrow the boot?
Sadly the voters had that chance but again blew it.
:0<
how long can this government hold power ? I mean literally EVERYTHING negative is blamed on the opposition ?
nbn in terrible mess cost blow outs galore = labors mess, still being cleared up
gay marriage = labors fault because they wont support my policies
not enough legislation to talk about in parliament after like 2 days of the opening = labors fault for not passing our policies
Like I mean .. if everything is labors fault, then whats the point of the lnp being in power ? if they cant even run a government when they ARE in power seriously whats the point ?
I'm not really a labor supporter as such, I tend to go by policies rather than stick with a party. but jeez this coalition is an utterly failed governent
I'm feeling very under the weather today..
If only there was something I could blame..
*shakes fist at Labor*
http://www.fool.com.au/2016/
1.The full rollout of the National Broadband Network (NBN) will cause a $2 -$3 billion negative hit to earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA), according to Telstra�s chief financial officer Warwick Bray.
That�s much larger than I envisioned, and despite the billions of dollars in compensation from the government, Telstra will need to generate between $5 and $7.4 billion in additional revenues at an EBITDA margin of around 40% to cover the hole. I see that as highly unlikely.
Telstra to Bill "Can you just say it's completed next year and we buy it in 2017.. We're kind of in a rush"
Telstra to Bill "Can you just say it's completed next year and we buy it in 2017.. We're kind of in a rush"
Or maybe "Can you just say it's completed next year and give it to us in 2017... oh and you'll need to give us some cash as well to upgrade it"
Seriously they must think Australians as dullards.
Election year � Promise 25mbps to all. <failed>
Next election cycle � Promise all Australian's connected to the NBN <pending>
So happens that all these dates NBN throw out fall in line with election years.
I know I'm biting into two pages of troll bait here, but ...
that $70bn+ (which it would have been) for Gbps speeds for the last mile
Total BS
From the information published by nbn� (not always voluntarily) and some further explanatory information from Quigly, we know the full fibre build was on track to "cost" ~$45bil by ~2020. This comprises of $30b build cost, $10bil payments to Telstra and $5bil of accumulated losses during the rollout. MTM is on track to cost ~$49/50bil by 2020 (though it won't quite be finished), comprising of $28bil build cost, $11bil payments to Telstra and $10bil in accumulated losses.
Further, the MTM NBN bill have notional earnings of $1.2-$1.8b pa (from latest corporate plan), but require ongoing capex of $0.5 to $1.5b a year giving at a potential market value of somewhere between $0 and $20bil (PE of 16).
The Fibre NBN would have earnings of $2.8-$3.3b pa and require little ongoing capex to maintain market share (and in all likelihood have earnings grow faster than MTM and GPD justifying a higher PE) giving it a valuation of between $45b and $52b (also a PE of 16).
I make the direct cost to taxpayers of the decision to go MTM to be between $30b and $50b. And that's just the direct cost, completely ignoring the wider economic impacts of it denying the public affordable access to gigabit internet.
The simple truth is Fibre as a last mile access is viable. MTM is not. This is not speculation. This is based on the best information available.
Edit s/true/truth/
Noticed a nice ad from CA in an old magazine from February of this year which is perfectly applicable on our Industry (including NBN Co):
The real disrupters? Your customers' customers.
The ad continues:
Users don't just expect a flawless experience, but one tailored to their tastes. Where the difference between success and failure comes down to the quality of your applications and millions in potential revenue hangs in balance. It's an enormous opportunity for those nimble enough to seize it.
Replace the word "applications" by "connectivity" and we are done.
Tailored, got that government?
Not something that is decided to be good enough for the customer's customers (aka End Users) of NBN Co.
Business, rewritten by software�
Much better than NBN�.
Replace the word "software" by "connectivity" and we have a new slogan for NBNv3.
Most definitely worth visiting this blog:
http://rewrite.ca.com
Going to frame this one:
http://www.ca.com/us/rew
If innovators are not willing to learn from their experiments, if they design them in such a way that they can only confirm their hypotheses, or if they ignore anything that goes against their hypotheses, they will still fail. That kind of failure can take a long time because it can look like success, and it can result in a long journey down the wrong path. What�s even worse is that an opportunity for a valuable pivot can be missed.
George Watt, VP of Strategy, CA Technologies
http://www.fool.com.au/2016
1.The full rollout of the National Broadband Network (NBN) will cause a $2 -$3 billion negative hit to earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA), according to Telstra�s chief financial officer Warwick Bray.
That�s much larger than I envisioned, and despite the billions of dollars in compensation from the government, Telstra will need to generate between $5 and $7.4 billion in additional revenues at an EBITDA margin of around 40% to cover the hole. I see that as highly unlikely.
Telstra to Bill "Can you just say it's completed next year and we buy it in 2017.. We're kind of in a rush"
FWIY, I think this is an overly pessimistic view of Telstra's prospects. This hit to earnings largely represents the delays in rolling out MTM. The latest corporate plan shows the projected payments to Telstra ramping up through 2017 and 2018, but we would be well into the middle of those now had we not had the 2 year delay as we switched access techs.
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
How will the European Commission deliver on this promise? Where's the money coming from?
How will the European Commission deliver on this promise? Where's the money coming from?
They never have a money problem. For starters, never ever one budget during its entire existence has been approved by members. Handy, you never go over budget. /s
To satisfy the many requests I've not had to "Please explain?" the 2 opposing sides of the Federal Coalition NBN/MTM policy.
FOR: We are in danger of being swamped by Fibre Zealots who bear a culture and ideology incompatible with our own.
AGAINST: We are in danger of being swamped by FTTN by those who bear a culture and ideology incompatible with our own.
The latest corporate plan shows the projected payments to Telstra ramping up through 2017 and 2018
You say this like its a good thing ?
mate, I manage the FTTN network
Remember when NBN staff used to come onto whirlpool and talk to people?
That was pre-Liberal days, the current NBN conditions would find an employer sacked if they spoke on reddit/whirlpool about the network.
Take it with a mountain of salt, because we know they're full of salt.
Take it with a mountain of salt, because we know they're full of salt.
I remember the name, he is in the penalty box and hasn't been online since.
/user/41125
Want to see some mad haxor skills you need to see this video. Quite realistic too >
https://www.youtube.com/wat
:)
Morrow comes up with his wonderful crock of crap such as "NBN will put Australia in a 'leadership position"
Perhaps he just needs to re-order the list with 'Fastest on top'.
Perhaps he just needs to re-order the list with 'Fastest on top'.
The TO--morrow man has mixed up the top with the bottom of the list.
They pay a premium.
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
http://www.zdnet.com/article
we are so far behind now.
Superloop plans to create a gigabit wireless end user service for enterprise customers that will bypass the NBN, leading to speculation that other wireless providers may follow them and create problems for NBN�s business model
It's a bit more than speculation, on the basis of the info released to date.
It's a very telling point that, despite many well-known problems with mass wireless, there are providers who have rightly seen the shortcomings of MTM provide them a business opportunity for development.
It would be very difficult to find a more telling response overall to the destruction of the original NBN, plus the farcical 'replacement' with the obsolescent MTM.
looking at Lord Lightbulb's noodle network mess is this the sign of things to come
We should all fully recognise Mr Harbourside Mansion for the true value of his extraordinary input.
Take it with a mountain of salt, because we know they're full of salt.
He sounds full of it, trying to convince me that the total bandwidth doesn't matter as no one will use their connection that much.
there are providers who have rightly seen the shortcomings of MTM provide them a business opportunity for development.
This, Malcom will tell you, is showing how the LNP encourages competition in business, and we all know that competition makes for better outcomes for the end users right ....
whats that you say about how much we wasted on the nbn to then be squeezed for every last penny by a private company because they are the only ones who have laid the infrastructure for the services we require.......
sshh didn't Bill tell you to not worry about the price
if anyone else wants to chime in and see what the guy who "mate, I manage the FTTN network. I'm very, very familiar with how it's built." has to say about it. https://www.reddit.com/r/nbn/
it kind of figures that the guy running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
and we all know that competition makes for better outcomes for the end users right ...
Of course it does � in the relatively small high-density, high-value areas where it might happen.
Pity about the other 98% of the land mass, where there will be nothing at all beyond the dire MTM.
Though it seems increasingly possible that the Prince of Point Piper may have little more than some degree of distant contempt for anything beyond the range of his stylish loggia . . .
Remember when NBN staff used to come onto whirlpool and talk to people?
The writing style and claims (about backhaul scalability, role in the FTTN rollout and so on) makes me think that mediweevil on reddit and gpon on Whirlpool are one and the same.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2538297#r13
it kind of figures that the guy running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
it kind of figures that the guy claiming to be running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
Remember we also have a guy on here claiming to be a journalist.
makes me think that mediweevil
the last thing you want in anything are weevils, I think they are worse than gremlins
I'd suggest some of you are being excessively dismissive of other posters or alternate views. With the way that the same slogans and lack of cohesive arguments being presented doesn't make you any different from raoul or kingy for blind belief, just a different tech. Any time a decent and factual discussion gets started then it just gets buried under the same stuff stated for years.
You may not agree with the policy that mediweavil is implementing, but it's clear he has good insight and reasoning for how they are implementing. Same for discussions with gpon. While I have shared my own issues with charlie and how he engages here, it's good to have that input.
All that will end up happening is that all members of this thread get tarred with the same dismissive attitude towards Whirlpool. And lots of opportunities have been lost on the NBN in that regards.
With the way that the same slogans and lack of cohesive arguments being presented doesn't make you any different from raoul or kingy for blind belief, just a different tech.
You are mistaken � the economic and technical arguments for FTTP and against FTTN are unimpeachable.
it kind of figures that the guy claiming to be running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
Remember we also have a guy on here claiming to be a journalist
this is true, however the evidence of what the article said and what the user on here said actually match up quite well, neither show any signs of comprehension.
as for the guy running the FTTN roll out, well you can see evidenced by the abysmal product, its over inflated costs, its slow roll out, and its terrible performance, it tally's quite well with a manager that knows nothing about what he is doing,
So on the whole .. they are both really quite believable claims. If rather embarrassing ones.
You are mistaken � the economic and technical arguments for FTTP and against FTTN are unimpeachable.
pretty much, but I see what MrMac is saying here, sinking to their levels only increases their credibility.
In the end, it really doesn't matter what is said on Whirlpool. What random people on an internet forum think is not going to sway a government fixated on a policy. Personally I don't think there is anything that can be done about the nbn anymore, this thread is effectively dead as the policy is there and not changing, the contracts are in place, at some undefined time in the future the nbn will declare it has completed the roll out whether it has or not and we will be left to live with that.
Any future changes will likely come in the form of private business laying its own superior infrastructure and fleecing the public while crippling the nbn into obscurity.
Saw this , looks like the EU is doing the right thing, pity the POMs and Brexit will exclude them. We need a policy like this. Turnbull and Co we are getting further behind !
Germany and France now that Britain has decided to leave ... lol I'm sure they will be very happy to foot the bill.
The European Commission isn't supplying any money, it's just an EU-law that says by 2025 all member states should have universal internet access of at least 100 mbps. Judging by eastern europe and spain/portugal this should be easy for them to achieve.
There is however, $120 million euros for free wifi hotspot projects around the EU.
Considering the government is busy negotiating an EU-FTA perhaps they should add the 100 mbps EU directive to the deal. :-)
Personally I don't think there is anything that can be done about the nbn anymore, ...
You're probably right. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't hope and push for there to be transparency and accountability of what nbn� are doing and claiming to be doing.
This will eventually all come out in the wash. Whether that happens during the current Government's term .... pushed by a strong Senate or joint committee (I won't be holding my breath), or after this Government's term ..... I don't know ..... but the truth will eventually come out.
And I think that we can be fairly certain that Turnbull, Morrow and the LNP will not come out of it smelling of roses.
And I think that we can be fairly certain that Turnbull, Morrow and the LNP will not come out of it smelling of roses.
Their fate will be similar to the board of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation (I hope)
We will regret what has been done to the NBN for decades to come!
What random people on an internet forum think is not going to sway a government fixated on a policy.
IMHO what's happening is there is now a complete dearth of new information re this project. There is no information leaking from nbn�. There are no Senate hearings. Even finder isn't getting the same updates they once were. In short, they have effectively shut down the flow of real information. Even the shills are struggling to find half truths to make government supportive claims.
Aside from the political motivations, there is probably another important reason for this: nbn�'s need to access the finance markets. It's one thing to snow the public with a lot of BS to win an election, no crime in that. But to raise money from public capital markets does require a certain degree of honesty and disclosure. It doesn't always happen of course. But were a super high profile and government owned/backed project caught raising capital from the markets under false pretences, the executives and/or board members (someone at least, and certainly not the politicians) would be facing gaol time.
Personally I don't think there is anything that can be done about the nbn anymore, this thread is effectively dead as the policy is there and not changing, the contracts are in place, at some undefined time in the future the nbn will declare it has completed the roll out whether it has or not and we will be left to live with that.
I had been of the view that at some point during this parliament nbn� would shift away from FTTN to a more fibre oriented position (either FTTdp or some other way of rolling fibre without it looking like a backdown), for no other reason than to save money. Indeed I think the leaks from nbn� in the lead up to the election were aimed at nudging the Libs toward this less suicidal position.
With the release of the latest corporate plan, that now appears unlikely. Instead they have doubled down on FTTN, at the expense of never being able to meet the 90% gets > 50mbps SOE requirement. I suspect this decision was made (or forced on them) as early as the first half of last year, but they've waited till now to drip out this information.
As for what can be done, I think there is plenty that could be done within the MTM framework, though I doubt any of it will be. Never the less, here goes:
1) nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
The speed tier differential pricing model designed for fibre at the start of this decade is clearly unsustainable into the next decade. In the not too distance future 4.5G cellular will offer superior performance to FTTN NBN. The only comparative advantage (slow) fixed line can offer is cheap capacity. Even with only 100Mhz of spectra each cell tower only needs to achieve a spectral efficiency of 10b/hz to match an nbn� node for capacity. 10gps backhaul costs (next to) nothing to put in now, and positions nbn�'s inferior performing FTTN product to retain some sort of usefulness into the next decade. The cost today is trivial, but expensive to retrofit. But it potentially extends the useful economic life of the nodes for years.
2) Technology Choices needs to be taken seriously.
People want to buy fibre internet. People want to invest in fibre internet. People even want to donate to the cause of fibre internet. But nbn� have given a big FU to all these people prepared to give them money, while at the same time not delivered potential customers a service and crying poor going to the capital markets asking for loans. It's pure insanity. This program needs to be re-structured so people who want to invest in fibre, purchase fibre or even supply fibre can do so with nbn�'s assistance � or at very least without their obstruction.
Remember, this isn't the Labor party line, it's the Liberal party's official position. People who need fibre and are prepared to pay for it can get it, fibre will be used where it makes financial sense to do so, there will be facilities competition etc. But it's not happening.
Let me put it even simpler:
Hey nbn�! People want to give you money to install fibre. Let them give it to you!
3) We need to stop greenfields copper/FTTN NOW!
This subsidising Telstra to install copper that nbn� will ultimately lease back � to connect to a node nbn� will have to build � just to provide a substandard obsolete service over is also completely insane. What we need are ACMA rules requiring new copper leadins to be accompanied by a new fibre lead in, so when nbn� (or whoever) finally rolls fibre down the street, the new house just has to be patched in. In new estates we need rules ensuring the new street conduits are filled with fibre, and not copper. So when nbn� finally comes to down, they patch in the fibre and lease that from whoever owns it, rather than leasing copper and then having to build a useless node as well.
4) We need genuine community consultation.
Between design and commencement of construction of each SAM there should be a 3 month community consultation period where community feedback and ideas can be used to improve the design. I can understand why any agency � especially one which knows they are shafting their customers � would fear this � and yes, squeaky wheels would also get more oil. But I have no doubt this would ultimately save more money that it costs, and (at very least) avoid a whole pile of difficult to solve problems down the track.
5) Ditch the anti-fibre attitude.
MTM is supposed to include FTTP as one of the tech options. Yet nbn� have exhibited an almost pathological hatred of anything fibre. There are cases where FTTP is the cheapest option and would save money up front even using nbn�'s current perverted peak funding metric. Such as ADAs in near new estates where there are new fibre ready conduits and PCDs in place. Or where 2 nodes are placed side by side because their combined premises count is 400. (ie spend $100k running fibre down one short street and save $250k by building one less node).
Just remember nbn�, fibre optic cable was not invented by the Labor party. FTTP is part of the MTM mix. Where fibre can be used to save money up front and reduce overall peak funding, for heavens sake use it!
I'd like to re-iterate, nothing here is anything other than unimplemented Coalition policy. To me it speaks volumes of just how little the Coalition believe in their own agenda that even these simple steps can't happen.
Rubbish, on Whirlpool you can express your opinion anonymous. But the fact is that you are one of those journalist that believe are at the centre of a discussion which they remotely do not even understand. In that context they have a desire to be "balanced" while they don't understand that what is discussed.
No. I have put up my hand and named my identity as a the author of certain pieces to which this community objects. That takes away my anonymity. It's fine healthy to have debate. I reject your assertion that I don't understand the debate and I challenge representations made by NBN Co as I do the arguments made here. But I'll repeat and stand by my statement that it is devil's advocate work in the name of exploration.
Show me for example the 'devils advocate' position for Adolf Hitler
Adolf Hitler?!
they could eat healthy, unprocessed foods, avoid ingesting toxins into their bodies, exercise.
Of they may just have BRCA genetic disposition.
Sometimes however the 'other side' is just so wrong that ANY playing 'devils advocate' shows a clear bias.
And clearly by this you think you're not being biased?
You could have been paying more attention to the road situation, I have survived several cars running red lights and never been knocked down before (just playing devils advocate of course)
Well, I hope we're all blessed with the situational awareness of someone such as yourself but it has been known to happen.
But you only post in the middle of the night , often incoherent babblings as if you are inebriated. You are about as far from objective as left is from right.
I base that on NBN Co's own estimates. I post later at night because my working rhythms are a touch different from most people as a freelancer and often I'm writing/editing in the evening rather than the day time.
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
True and there's a problem here if the RSPs lack confidence in the FTTN enough to market it.
True and there's a problem here if the RSPs lack confidence in the FTTN enough to market it
Are RSP's as concerned about having this issue over HFC?
Are RSP's as concerned about having this issue over HFC?
I can't really say without investigation but the problem is that they shut down on comment on provisioning. I do note Optus' recent changes in their HFC plans with some curiosity.
That is what I call a post with no purpose.
Frank, I was trying to codify what I can't say.
I'm not sure how reliable this site is but it looks like FTTH is even growing in Spain. What country's next? The Netherlands?
FTTH is growing very fast in Spain with 110,219 new lines in July, according to the latest figures from the CNMC.
Funny how there seems to be uptake in FTTH in other country's and growing but when it was here people weren't up taking it or saying it's not needed and they'll keep their regular landline. Most people here still say there's no need for it while people in Spain will take it no questions asked.
Gotta bless the local papers through for brainwashing people into saying FTTP is crap and a waste of money. But when the green nodes come rolling through everyone is as silent as a mouse and says SFA about it.
By contrast, DSL lost 101,000 lines and HFC cable over 8,000 lines. Over the last 12 months, FTTH has gained 1.8 million lines while DSL lost 1.5 million.
Ah so the old technology like HFC and DSL is dropping like dead meat and over here it's the complete opposite (Well DSL is still shutdown and upgraded to VDSL instead) FTTH is dropping here (Unless you are still in a lucky development getting FTTP and not Node)
Source � http://advanced-television.co
I might of found the figures for the ^ above too but it's in Spanish and the built in google translate is funky so either you need to know Spanish or use translate and hope for the best
http://data.cnmc.es/datagraph/jsp/inf_men.jsp
FIXED BROADBAND LINES
1,661 monthly variation
101,219 DSL
HFC 8010
FTTH 110890
YTD 203,172
Total 13,381,205 park
Rate of change of total park ( jul'16 � jul'15 ) 4%
graphics menu
Gotta bless the local papers through for brainwashing people into saying FTTP is crap and a waste of money. But when the green nodes come rolling through everyone is as silent as a mouse and says SFA about it.
Only one word is needed to cover this,------------- Murdoch
True and there's a problem here if the RSPs lack confidence in the FTTN enough to market it.
Confidence?
You can't market something you can't deliver. I'm pretty sure the ACCC have rules about that
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
Only one word is needed to cover this,------------- Murdoch
And he is not even an Australian citizen he gave that up so he could try and brainwash the world.
@Charliedontsurf
You've been shown previously that you don't understand the technology.
Maybe you've knuckled down since and have a much better understanding of all of the moving pieces, but until I actually see it consistently I'm pretty much going to ignore what you say.
...and yes I realise tha catch-22 inherent in my position, but that's what you get for initially posturing as knowledgeable- you lose the initial assumption of competence that most people are given.
Edit: added person I was replying to.
Well your post had a lot of thought given to it and reminds me that Whirlpool should have a 'top posts' vote/ feature, so it does not get lost in thousands of Astroturfers vs true believers arguments.
1) nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
It is a serious problem right now, let alone when nodes are fully populated. Unfortunately, it goes against the argument that it is all the ISP's fault for not buying enough CVC that the NBN seems to want to go with, and after all, it costs more.
2) Technology Choices needs to be taken seriously.
It appears the NBN want full cost recovery, and they have designed their network without the slightest thought that people might actually want fibre, so of course the costs are very high.
We have seen here that MT's $2K to $3K has mutated to $10K to $40K, or even more. Confidentiality aside, this should be a serious black eye to MT in the MSM, but there is stunning silence. Even the tech press has been soft on this. As for Labor, they should be savaging MT and the current puppet about it but there is a baffling quiet. It is like they feel the lost the argument and the high ground, along with the election.
We need to stop greenfields copper/FTTN NOW!
Again a total no-brainer, swamped by penny-pinching cost-cutting.
4) We need genuine community consultation.
If the other things happened, I could live without this
5) Ditch the anti-fibre attitude.
Totally true but will not happen for the term of this government no matter what. Any relaxation to the policy gives ammunition to the opposition.
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
My FTTP 100/40 home phone bundle with TPG is costing me $5 a month more than the absolutely crap adsl2+ bundle I had with iINet. I'm more than happy to pay a premium for a premium service. The copper in our area was/is so bad the only way fttn would have worked would have been to replace all the copper.
The copper in our area was/is so bad the only way fttn would have worked would have been to replace all the copper.
Isn't that part of Turnbull's plan to help the mining industry liberal friends.
The copper in our area was/is so bad the only way fttn would have worked would have been to replace all the copper.
Same here, which is probably why it was pushed back a year. I bet it will be quietly dropped off the three year plan eventually.
15 Min from Brisbane CBD.
And clearly by this you think you're not being biased?
If a doctor tells you you have cancer, you go to another doctor for a second opinion. If that second opinion also comes back as cancer, where is the bias?
The vast majority of the technical and financial experts in the networking field around the world are saying FTTH is the way forward, why is it bias to say FTTH is the better technology?
What country's next? The Netherlands?
The Netherlands is an odd one out.
When I was a kid, mid 70's, my complete town was already facilitated by a underground TV-cable network facilitated by the local council. It was not that big, only 50,000 citizens. No antennas on the roof, at least not in the cities. We had around that time already 20 TV-stations and many more radio stations. After that the commercial stations were added, many more TV-stations were added (around 40) and I remember to be able to watch Italian TV in perfect quality. Talking mid 80's. By the time Internet came around, the network was made suitable to transport data. This meant that from the moment go, the incumbent Telecom company KPN had competition on the copper network. This resulted in a healthy competition on speed but also volume. Restricted volume was only a brief period introduced to be dropped for unlimited. Actually it was not advertised as unlimited. It was not a selling point any more or a differentiation so why advertise on it?
At the start of 2000's the process of the past, councils building their own network repeated. This time with fibre. The competition on HFC actually slows down now the roll out and initiatives. Now before trolls are jumping, there is a major difference between Australia and the Netherlands, the HFC networks are maintained top notch in the Netherlands.
At any case, no users are skipping out on poor broadband speeds.
The incumbent Telecom company KPN "struggles" but some could call it "healthy competition". Their core asset is copper and they have troubles delivering on speed and quality. They attempted through KPNQWest to enter the fibre market but the company collapsed. They have been a target of Carlos Slim, but the Dutch Government execute a call option which resulted in that Carlos could not take-over KPN as the Government had a majority in shares.
Why this tactic was not followed with NBNv1, don't ask me. You simply create call options and through a public listing you collect the capital. If a threat of take-over occurs, you simple call the option and raise your vote count. Capital is easy to collect on a fibre network as the returns are proven high. Large capital investors queue.
The Netherlands is actually a nice example where regulation was very low and the initiative was left at large to the councils to compete with KPN. Some counsels worked together to create backhaul between towns, many initiatives were taken even in smaller cities and villages. In effect KPN was punished for not investing in their core business.
There was no desire for the Dutch Government to actually protect KPN against the Counsil initiatives. The only time the Dutch Government swing into action was protecting foreign ownership of the company.
The situation in Australia is much different. There always has been that desire to control the Telecom market in the benefit of major carriers. That clearly didn't work and we now receive the fruit of this strategy. We discover the fruit is rotten and we lack the courage with the Government and regulators to make a change.
This failed strategy, results in no investors willing to participate in the Australia telecom market. And it doesn't matter if you are an entrepreneur or NBN Co. No private capital. Period. Who wants to invest in a market where the government and the regulators protect certain players through vested interests?
Well your post had a lot of thought given to it and reminds me that Whirlpool should have a 'top posts' vote/ feature, so it does not get lost in thousands of Astroturfers vs true believers arguments.
Very much agreed
1) nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
I'm not sure if this is as big an issue today as it is made out to be. Internet behaviour pattern's are fairly broad, even during a level of peak usage, and also constrainted by limitations of FTTN as well. To a certain extent I trust NBNCo to manage capacity appropriately, plus the cost of 10Gbps equipment today is unnecessary as a standard. I would however like to see more transparency and regulation in the future on capacity/CVC.
I agree completely to all your other points, though I'd add to ditch the anti > 25Mbps attitude along with fibre. Libs won, their policy is in place, but now time to work towards best possible outcomes over the longer term. Importantly that means financially viable NBN.
Gotta bless the local papers through for brainwashing people into saying FTTP is crap and a waste of money. But when the green nodes come rolling through everyone is as silent as a mouse and says SFA about it.
That is because the activation rates on FTTN/B are far, far lower than FTTP. Who would of thought?
The activation rates on FTTP are around the 40%-50% mark whereas FTTN/B is around the 5% to 10%.
noide@51561497 Tandem TrainRider writes...
IMHO what's happening is there is now a complete dearth of new information re this project
nbn�'s need to access the finance markets
Good point, that has certainly helped kill off discussion. Everything has been discussed, and the facts and figures added up.
Either way I don't think we are going to see a change, I got no sense that FTTdp was on the horizon, all this time and energy working on ways to squeeze more performance out of the copper. Is just to justify the approach "Look see this route we are taking you also can achieve higher speeds than we can do right now"
But in reality its like making the most aerodynamic, lightweight, high performance horse cart. And racing it against cars, it only goes so fast, for so long before it rapidly falls behind.
nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
Good idea but ..
1) I am pretty sure that they run 4 fibres, 2 active to provide 2 Gbps and 2 spare for future growth or upgrades (micronodes)
still pathetic with 384 potential users per node, but if your point was more about the switching ability then ...
The cost today is trivial
2) I'm not so sure Malcom would agree with that, that basically requires refitting the nodes with 10 Gbps capable switching ... to 70,000 nodes, and then replacing the switching at the POIs. The difference in pricing between 1 Gbps switching and 10 Gbps switching at a retail level is in the order of 10 times its going to significantly impact costs. Hence it hasn't been done from the outset, because CapEx is supposed to be important to this mob.
We need to stop greenfields copper/FTTN NOW!
Too late, nodes are in place already. The sad thing is that even by nbns own reckoning greenfields FTTP is their cheapest technology.
We need genuine community consultation.
I don't see the value in this really. with a good roll out plan, sure consultation with the council to figure out how to avoid digging the same streets as some other utility, and councils could hold their own sessions for the public to pass on ideas if there was much interest in the area, but forcing nbn to do it would probably just slow things up imo.
Ditch the anti-fibre attitude
Apparently there isn't one.
I'm not sure if this is as big an issue today as it is made out to be.
Well it depends on how many nodes actually get loaded up. It seems with current uptake on FTTN so low that it might not be an issue. but just simple maths 2 Gbps divided between 384 users, gives a maximum of 5Mbps each connection.
that's way under the guaranteed minimums. its an issue for sure, how big an issue ?
I suspect the route to upgrade will be as a particular node starts hitting the backhaul headroom, they will either start by adding the spare fibres, or consider upgrading that single node. Leaving users struggling for however long that process ends up taking I guess ? The problem is that the nodes service too many people, some from too far away, 4 fibres for 100 users would give much better results, but have 3 to 4 times as many nodes.
I'm not sure how reliable this site is but it looks like FTTH is even growing in Spain
That is correct.
Now for a pop quiz, what is the name of the company rolling out FTTH in Spain?
Extra credit points for tie-in information :)
https://broadbandworldforum.
Reviewing the economic impact of gigabit connectivity, the FTTH Council determined that �communities with widely available gigabit access have per capita GDP that is 1.1 percent higher [than those without gigabit]� � accounting for a full $1.4 Billion in the US.
Is that an NBN dog I see running away with its tail between its legs?
Why yes, yes it is.
Well it depends on how many nodes actually get loaded up. It seems with current uptake on FTTN so low that it might not be an issue. but just simple maths 2 Gbps divided between 384 users, gives a maximum of 5Mbps each connection.
Capacity wise, it's unlikely that a node will be full loaded with 384 users. Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time. Consumer behaviour varies across the timescale with different activities with varying bandwidth requirements, and varying bandwidth capacity at the premise. Even if the worst case did happen, which I would guess at < 1%, then sure upgrade that specific node to 10Gbps.
I dont post much in these threads as my time to chat is to sporadic to engage in convo so i lurk and read mostly.
Just sayin thanks to you guys for providing good info and article links to fill my spare time with good reading. I appreciate what you guys are doing here.
:)
My area got fttn and tho the sync is good and line stability is excellent i wish the network was better, after only 3 days the congestion in peak is awfull. 4 weeks on and Lastnight all i seen was 1500k/sec of the 7400k/sec capable.
The school holidays is scary and i think im in for a world of hurt.
https://twitter.com/SAD_NBN_
A user on FTTN 50mbps and a month of monitoring speeds.
Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time.
Peak hour gaming and streaming around 7pm onwards
activation rates on FTTN/B are far, far lower than FTTP. Who would of thought?
The activation rates on FTTP are around the 40%-50% mark whereas FTTN/B is around the 5% to 10%.
I'm still inclined to punt on the actually LNP strategy with the NBN and NBNCo to be
1. Make it look like NBNCo is rolling out the network on time and budget (by changing the scope and goalposts)
2. Then claim that activation rates are not high enough to make the Network financial viable or raise private sector funding required to finish the NBN/MTM. Shifting blame of this to RSP's, customers, social and MSM media, non-NBN Wireless Broadband alternatives and of course the previous Government.
Everything that is happening at the moment with the NBN/MTM and NBNCo appears to fit into the above IMO.
Where we go to from here is anyone's guess.
With a high risk that any attempts to change course from here are going to be met with resistance from all sides, including Telstra, who i would have thought, would prefer to see the NBN/MTM completed ASAP, as per the current SOE, rather than take on the risk of inheriting a half complete NBN/MTM.
If the LNP had more control of parliament, things might be different. But they don't have much control, and are not likely to get a much more control, if any at all, at the next Federal Election (early or on time).
Everything is fine, nothing is wrong with your internet *waves hand*
Effit il put my 2 cents from my perspective of the avg older millennial, im 32.
I had adsl2 here with a sync of 22 and it was enough barely for netflix on the tv and 2 users on youtube. During peak times it was bad but not bad enough to kill us it just made netflix drop hd and youtube drop to 480p.
On fttn now its been great except for horrid peak time congestions, triple downstream to 62 and i love the upload, thing is after reading what people have pointed out here i can see why problems exist.
Firstly the fttn cabinets dont have enough backhaul and i KNOW im not special most of my friends use netflix and kids love youtube and to them youtube is their netflix.
The cvc is to expensive so congestion at the cvc combined with congestion at the nodes. AWESOME !!
So to tl;dr what im saying is that the government is so out of touch not understanding that between middle aged users on netflix and high bandwidth usage gaming (im also a gamer) and kids smashing free game downloads, big mods and youtubing like crazy means the nbn is screwed before its finished.
I think every comment I can make about this has been covered here already by better minds than mine.
Everything is fine, nothing is wrong with your internet *waves hand*
I can't access the article just as well anyway.
But I guess this is the great "quality control" that our internet is getting.
Consumers are getting shafted on piss poor quality internet access for the money.
Its bloody obscene.
Instead, telcos and industry groups have suggested the introduction of guidelines designed to inform customers about the sort of service they can expect.
According to the industry, customers by and large need to calibrate their expectations when it comes to fixed broadband speeds and there is enough competition in the market for them to switch providers if they are dissatisfied by a service.
The rest of this article is a must read, with selected quotes from TPG, Optus and Telstra.
Customers need to understand that they are getting up to speeds from all NBN Services.
That there are no minimum speeds guaranteed
Just maximum speeds guaranteed on each speed tier or speed boost pack.
That switching providers when you are under a 2 year contract has early termination $ penalty clauses?
That the competition alternatives may offer little material difference to overcome speed issues.
That some of the speed issues are nothing to do with the RSP and that changing to any competitors might not make any difference.
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
Peak hour gaming and streaming around 7pm onwards
Gaming is very low in terms of bandwidth requirements, and also would not be a high representation of 200 connections on a node. Even with streaming, you won't get high numbers of people streaming concurrently or at same high levels of quality.
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
Edit: I think i'll remove my official comment until official sources come in :)
edit #2 -
I guess the new NBN senate committee will not be able to put NBN under pressure now that Conroy has gone.
Nobody else really knows the network like him.
Well your post had a lot of thought given to it
Thanks for the kind words.
I'm not sure if this is as big an issue today as it is made out to be. Internet behaviour pattern's are fairly broad, even during a level of peak usage, and also constrained by limitations of FTTN as well
I agree with this. In the short term it is more an issue of perception than reality. Why would an RSP "adequately" provision sufficient CVC when if they did, there is every chance their users will suffer congestion on the nbn� side anyway?
My understanding is the differential cost of installing 10gbps vs 1gbps up front is a couple of hundred dollars at most. No more than $10mil across the entire FTTN build. But retrofitting we're talking a truck roll, the new equipment, possibly splicing fibres and almost certainly end user downtime and hence project management costs, liaising with RSPs etc. It'll be thousands, perhaps more. And even then it won't be nation wide, so it will limit nbn�'s (or more likely their new owner's) ability to offer more competitive (with wireless) price plans.
My main point was this will more likely be an issue in a post 2020 world, where FTTN fixed line will be competing with wireless on capacity rather than performance (ie it will be used to offload secondary traffic away from your cell phone to keep within your data limit). I think 10gbps will extend the economic life of the nodes by a good 2 years (I'm sure plenty will still be in use a decade beyond that FWIW), and hence raise nbn�'s resale value.
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
I guess now NBNco is now full up with yes men now.
Well at least we all know what direction the NBNco is going now at full speed.
Is down....
Edit: I think i'll remove my official comment until official sources come in :)
Apparently he announced he was leaving in senate last night, also on hansard, and it seems no one noticed...
Edit: tabled his farewall speech, not announced it
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
Someone must have found his resignation letter on the APH mail server.
Edit: tabled his farewall speech, not announced it
But what will the shills do now? Their lifelong missionary zeal to cure Conrovia isn't needed any more. So we have bored anti fibre zealots. They remind me of 19th century Samurai in japan who picked fights out of boredom.
To every shill. The conrovia is over! Give it up! Your mission given to you by the Gods of Murdock is over.
Capacity wise, it's unlikely that a node will be full loaded with 384 users
to be fair, the best node is a loaded node, FTTN is really only a viable technology in high density areas, e.g.. places where there are 384 premises close by,
My guess is that people in CBDs and nearby will be on fairly loaded nodes, while people further out will be on less .loaded nodes.
Its a bit of a shame really because the likely high tier users will be the businesses in the CBD
Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time
well frankly they cant get even close to that on a fully loaded node, a fully loaded node doesn't need the connections to be fully utilised, most businesses use the internet at the same time, between 8am and 6pm. Most residential users use the internet at the same time, between 4pm and 12am.
Netflix release entire seasons, and people binge watch. This has already been evidenced with Netflix when it was introduced in Australia. events occur online at certain times, and at those times people want to use their bandwidth at the same time.
Before they changed to ASAP, the last date we were given for completion was 2020 right ? right in time for the next Olympics, Something that a LOT of Australians watched at the same time right ... Tokyo are recording it in 8k. But we wont be watching it at that will we.to be fair we probably wont be able to even stream HD consistently.
People DO use the internet at the same times, its how our lives are structured, its why we have always had peak hour congestion. and the FTTN implementation has done nothing to address that, the 2Gbps designed capacity from each node is certainly part of that issue.
Breaking news, Stephen Conroy resigned.
"When you resent being in Canberra because you are missing your daughter's soccer training it is time to retire from the federal Parliament.'
Yup tis official.
Guess he had enough
Good idea but ..
1) I am pretty sure that they run 4 fibres, 2 active to provide 2 Gbps and 2 spare for future growth or upgrades (micronodes)
it is 1 fibre for download and 1 fibre for upload, it is only a 1Gbps circuit
so if the enable the second pair that will permit the node to have 2Gbps capacity.
some Telcos do like to talk about combined download and upload as it can make the numbers sound better but it is misleading for those actually using he system
Was conroy for or against fttp?
Guess he had enough
That is fair to say.
fair play to him, who would want to have their name associated with this network, he has done what he can.
He can see that the future is set with respect to communications in this country, why not get out, he has been in long enough to earn one of those perpetual pensions. If he is smart he will get on the board of Telstra next and screw nbn from the other side ;/
Guess he had enough
Don't blame him really.
LNP coalition is hellbent pushing their fraud something has got to give.
Apparently he announced he was leaving in senate last night, also on hansard, and it seems no one noticed...
Edit: tabled his farewall speech, not announced it
Says enough in my view. Even his party didn't realise.
Is down....
Apparently they are going to adopt, Coles slogan.
Before they changed to ASAP, the last date we were given for completion was 2020 right ? right in time for the next Olympics, Something that a LOT of Australians watched at the same time right ... Tokyo are recording it in 8k. But we wont be watching it at that will we.to be fair we probably wont be able to even stream HD consistently.
To be, umm...fair though. Channel 7 will most likely have all the rights stitched up for that, So streaming wont be available anyway.
Wouldn't want you accessing content any other way than theirs
Nobody else really knows the network like him.
Why do U think I wrote that it depends on the skills and knowledge of the 10 non government members?
My educated guess, Conroy didn't like the proposal of the Government in regards to the Committee. He is a good Senator and party member so he will claim that it is time for the family. The real reason will come out soon. Just a matter of time.
I think that some politicians get uncomfortable with the developing cosy relationship between the two biggest parties. The developments are an exact copy of what occurred in Europe in many countries. The threat of populist independents brings the biggest parties closer. The desire to stay on the plouche makes that they compromise to much, effectively increasing the opposite of what they wish to achieve, a larger flow to independents.
For the scrutiny of the MTM-policy and NBN Co that is not a good one. As this is a compromise area. Stephen Conroy does not fit into that. And the situation in regards to the submarines in his new portfolio is a same story but worse as the joint interest (Pyne's retain of the seat, Labor's jobs) makes the biggest political parties almost partners.
I think that some politicians get uncomfortable with the developing cosy relationship between the two biggest parties.
exactly, and all you have to do is look at the backflip labor have just done on higher ed cuts ARENA (renewables) and the census. its a time when we need people to fight for whats right and not just cave into vested interests like the FTTN garbage that is being foisted upon us by a biased media, which is where i really lay the blame. Good work Conroy and thanks for battling so hard!
.@abcnews has been to Senator Conroy's Melbourne office. Staff didn't know anything the retirement announcement #auspol
says a lot....
Proof is delivered faster than fibre.
Could I take this opportunity to thank and congratulate Senator Cormann for his constructive approach to resolving some of the difficult issues. Both sides were involved in a little bit of give and take but the approach taken by Senator Cormann speaks volumes for him. As it is very late, I seek leave to table the rest of my contribution so we can move on.
Political he played it as a gentlemen but personally he felt differently. Why otherwise the connect and resign in such manner.
I thought that I had a rather interesting response to a Twitter message of Jason Clare in which he aimed at Pauline Hanson on Islamic immigrants. It was not so much about what Jason or Pauline said on the issue, it was what Jason expected from Pauline.
He portrayed that Pauline should talk to the AFP Commissioner as she was not helping them fighting terrorism.
I was not so interested in that discussion, my approach was entirely different as I asked him why rely on the creditability of the AFP Commissioner when he in fact has shown no creditability or accountability to the NBN AFP Raids. I stated that NBN Co, the AFP and politicians all have creditability issues and I stated that they should take ownership of that problem rather than attacking the cross bench.
Not sure where the two biggest parties want to go with this, but I don't think it is going to work in the eyes of the electorate. Not for NBN Co and its policies, and not for any other problem at hand.
Wonder if conroy wasnt offered a seat on the new nbn senate along with the raids on his office. You can only push shit up a hill for so long before it takes its toll
You can only push shit up a hill for so long before it takes its toll
My point and do you want to do this when you know that you have to face even more government members with butter on their heads. I rather would spend time with my daughter too.
nvm
Good idea but ..
1) I am pretty sure that they run 4 fibres, 2 active to provide 2 Gbps and 2 spare for future growth or upgrades (micronodes)
still pathetic with 384 potential users per node
As noted elsewhere, correct but misleading � it's 1Gbps downstream, 1Gbps upstream, and 2 spare but unterminated. You don't need many people to win NodeLotto to max that out during peak hour � 10-20 premises within ~500m of the node. This is a hard cap on how much CVC RSPs will be willing to purchase, even if CVC becomes really cheap.
but if your point was more about the switching ability then ...
2) I'm not so sure Malcom would agree with that, that basically requires refitting the nodes with 10 Gbps capable switching ... to 70,000 nodes, and then replacing the switching at the POIs. The difference in pricing between 1 Gbps switching and 10 Gbps switching at a retail level is in the order of 10 times its going to significantly impact costs. Hence it hasn't been done from the outset, because CapEx is supposed to be important to this mob.
As I understand it, the nodes already have a 40Gbps backplane and can support 10Gbps optical modules � it's just the optical modules that have been installed that are limited to 1Gbps. Compared to the cost of the node, it's trivial (~$800/node from what I've read).
And I'd be truly stunned if the POIs don't have sufficient switching capability considering the backhaul they're connected to (although it is possible that for the node side they've cheaped out).
So now we have Rod Simms of ACCC saying [ as good as] that print newspapers are so moribund that they can do what the hell they like with mergers; the real dance floor is online media anyway, he says.
Well, that's great Rod. Very happy to see that you value the online world so much. What about dealing with Fraudband while you are at it?
https://twitter.com/PaulBong
From Mr.Bongiorno
As noted elsewhere, correct but misleading � it's 1Gbps downstream, 1Gbps upstream, and 2 spare but unterminated. You don't need many people to win NodeLotto to max that out during peak hour � 10-20 premises within ~500m of the node. This is a hard cap on how much CVC RSPs will be willing to purchase, even if CVC becomes really cheap.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor-
Lets hope that all got fixed in some new node upgrade...
A rush to upgrade each new node :)
Stephen Conroy .... Father of the NBN.
Malcolm Turnbull .... Mother$#@&*! of the NBN.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor
even if nbn� decides to upgrade the network, they will likely continue using copper-based technologies for the years ahead to avoid large capital costs again"
Here's the big reason I get annoyed about anyone supporting FTTN � the 100% waste of money that could have been spent rolling out fibre � which everyone admits is the end game.
Conroy's announcement was sudden and unexpected. I was hearing him on Newsradio Parliament during the afternoon, and he used up all his allotted time before the Speaker told him his time has expired, and Conroy said, "I haven't even gotten started", or something similar. There was no hint of him exiting then and he sounded fully engaged. Yet within a few hours he announced he was chucking it in.
Malcolm Turnbull .... Mother$#@&*! of the NBN.
As noted elsewhere, correct but misleading � it's 1Gbps downstream, 1Gbps upstream, and 2 spare but unterminated. You don't need many people to win NodeLotto to max that out during peak hour � 10-20 premises within ~500m of the node. This is a hard cap on how much CVC RSPs will be willing to purchase, even if CVC becomes really cheap.
The uplink ports are pluggable optics and could be poplulated with full duplex on single fibre SFPs. So the initial fibre deployment would seem to be capped at 4Gbps full-duplex. 7 or 8Gbps full-duplex if more fibre is pulled in or some tens of Gbps with a controller board upgrade to support 10G uplinks.
As I understand it, the nodes already have a 40Gbps backplane and can support 10Gbps optical modules � it's just the optical modules that have been installed that are limited to 1Gbps. Compared to the cost of the node, it's trivial (~$800/node from what I've read).
And I'd be truly stunned if the POIs don't have sufficient switching capability considering the backhaul they're connected to (although it is possible that for the node side they've cheaped out).
You may be right, but my understanding is that 10G uplinks requires a fabric upgrade.
Still, the design docs state that, while the node *could* be used to support 374 subscribers, the design goal is for ~200 subscribers per node. Furthermore, the design philosophy seems to be to start with minimum config and upgrade as CVC is bought. In my experience this is the most efficient way to do it *assuming* that you have the processes and procedures to upgrade capacity in a timely manner. There are many issues with FTTN, but I think it is safe to say that node congestion, aside from unexpected ramps, will not turn out to be one of them. Contention ratios can be kept within best practice right up to 200 subscribers with 50/20 even without fabric upgrades or added fibre. The problems will be with sync rates and CVC congestion � and the CVC congestion problem is not confined to FTTN.
You may be right, but my understanding is that 10G uplinks requires a fabric upgrade
Part of the problem is the nodes connect back to the FAN and the FAN only has redundant 10/10 gbps fibre links back to the POI.
This makes upgrading nodes to 10 gbps expensive!
Still, the design docs state that, while the node *could* be used to support 374 subscribers, the design goal is for ~200 subscribers per node.
Hmm its certainly a topic of concern on the face of it.
Although if the ISPs are averaging 1 mbps over their subscriber base at the moment during peak time then perhaps over 200-300 subscribers you won't have much problem with 1gbps nodes at the moment.
Contention ratios can be kept within best practice right up to 200 subscribers with 50/20
The 2 fibres are aggregated, so its up/down afaik.
2000Mbps / 200 = (I know its tricky maths here) .... 10Mbps each
that's still under both the minimum AND the coexistence minimum. So assuming omse uploading as well, then it comes down again.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue.
It makes it impossible to supply 1:1 contention business plans.
It makes it impossible to supply 1:1 contention business plans
It makes it a clusterflap!
There are many issues with FTTN, but I think it is safe to say that node congestion, aside from unexpected ramps, will not turn out to be one of them.
+1
14.3(b) of this document still applies:
http://www.nbnco.com
The problems will be with sync rates and CVC congestion � and the CVC congestion problem is not confined to FTTN.
Precisely.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue.
I don't get why people think this is an issue.
Netflix have a new splash screen for Australia
I don't get why people think this is an issue.
because they have provisioned a service that cannot achieve their minimum guarantees
Just saying
"There wont be an issue, trust me'
does not hold up against the cold hard facts.
Thank you djos. I don't recall seeing that one. Very apt.
I see Steve Baxter has come out of the woodwork and showing his true colours on twitter.
Replies to anyone who comments "ever built a fibre network?!?" "Here's a link to my article!"
https://www.linkedi
Where Steve can only make valid points on the single argument he brings up in his article.
"If the goal is �to have fast internet� then we are missing the bigger picture"
No.
NBNs goal is deliver Australia's first national wholesale-only, open access broadband network to all Australians.
Not deliver a private fibre network to a handful of people.
Can anyone say whether the special fibre that is laid on to politician's electorate offices or to schools, in areas that have not had NBN fibre rolled out, is NBN or are business plans?
My reason for asking is that if they are business plans, not only do the politicians' electoral offices have fibre ahead of anyone else, they have it without all that contention trouble that NBN fibre users have to live with.
Can anyone say whether the special fibre that is laid on to politician's electorate offices or to schools, in areas that have not had NBN fibre rolled out, is NBN or are business plans?
It's Telstra fibre.
http://www.smh.com.au/
Edit: the quote is hilarious � Telstra thought MTM was such a good idea that they wanted to get rid of it, until Mal came along and wanted to pay them billions...
A DPS spokeswoman said it was Telstra's idea to upgrade electorate offices from a mixture of copper, satellite and cable to fibre-optic cable.
''Having a fibre-optic infrastructure supporting the connectivity to each electorate office allows the bandwidth or network speeds to increase without being limited by the cabling infrastructure,'' the spokeswoman said.
I see Steve Baxter has come out of the woodwork and showing his true colours on twitter.
Replies to anyone who comments "ever built a fibre network?!?" "Here's a link to my article!"
This article has actually been mentioned several times already, and was also linked to on Delimiter. It was posted by Steve in April. He does make a lot of good points though, especially in regards to speed tiers. They need to go. Sure, the MTM (specifically FTTN, aka "Nodelotto") makes it difficult to ensure that everyone could get the same speeds, but it's better than paying for a 100/40 plan, and only getting something like 65/27, which doesn't make dropping down the to 50/20 plan quite worthwhile, but paying for a speed you can't achieve is even less so.
especially in regards to speed tiers. They need to go. Sure, the MTM (specifically FTTN,
We dont have them on ADSL2+, so why bring them back with FTTN?
Exactly...
Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time. Consumer behaviour varies across the timescale with different activities with varying bandwidth requirements, and varying bandwidth capacity at the premise.
I agree with this
I don't. If all the above varies so much then congestion on any network would not be as prevalent and common as it currently is. There is always huge bandwidth demand increases around the time kids get home from school and after dinner when people sit down to browse the net, play games and watch streaming video of some sort.
Due to school and work hours for the majority of the population this is not going to change any time soon.
but it's better than paying for a 100/40 plan, and only getting something like 65/27, which doesn't make dropping down the to 50/20 plan quite worthwhile, but paying for a speed you can't achieve is even less so
perhaps we can all install a small raspberry pi tpe computer to constantly monitor our bandwidth and at the end of the month we can average it out and pay "up to $100(or whatever the price of the plan is)"
if you only achieve an average of 60/25 on your 100/40 plan you only pay 61% of the 100 dollars a month you are supposed to pay for the 100/40 plan
pay "up to $100(or whatever the price of the plan is)"
Up to 100/40 Up to $100pm
Up to 50/20 Up to $50pm
Up to 50/10 Up to $40pm (useful for HFC where upload is likely prone to more congestion)
Up to 25/5 Up to $25pm
Up to 12/1 Up to $12.50pm
That seems much fairer.
Up to 100/40 Up to $100pm
Up to 50/20 Up to $50pm
Up to 50/10 Up to $40pm (useful for HFC where upload is likely prone to more congestion)
Up to 25/5 Up to $25pm
Up to 12/1 Up to $12.50pm
That seems much fairer.
Up to 100/40 Up to $100pm
Up to 50/20 Up to $50pm
Up to 25/5 Up to $25pm
The 2 fibres are aggregated, so its up/down afaik.
Correct, one fibre in, one out.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue
Cause simple maths is beyond their intellectual capacity.
It makes it impossible to supply 1:1 contention business plans
Correct.
I�m a long time lurker of this thread (read every page), and have come to the realisation that there is a lot of valuable information in this thread that the general public is unaware of.
Instead of just elevating our blood pressure on Whingepool, we as a community should attempt to educate the general public on the deficiencies of the MTM.
Why don't some of our more knowledgeable posters collaborate and put together a fact sheet to send to and educate the new NBN Joint Standing Committee members? (or even every member of Parliament?)
Spell out how NZ can do FTTP for nearly a third of the cost per premises figures given by NBN.
Explain why FTTN is a dead end street and effectively a waste of taxpayers money.
Detail how a node is bandwidth limited to 2Gbps shared between up to 384 users, compared to FTTP (currently 1Gbps, but more easily upgradeable to 10Gbps and beyond to 43000Gbps) fibre shared between only 32 users.
Include speed charts showing how FTTN connection speeds drop off markedly after a couple of hundred metres. etc, etc, etc ��.
Send it to all the newspapers, spoon feed the journos a story where the research has already been done for them.
Send it to the ABC to be fact checked. Maybe 4 corners might be interested in doing a story on it.
Start a petition on Get-Up.
If we as a community can get the truth out there we may be able get public opinion on our side, as lost votes for LNP is the only way to halt this FTTN madness.
Thank you djos. I don't recall seeing that one. Very apt
It does a great job of exposing the stupidity of MtM.
''Having a fibre-optic infrastructure supporting the connectivity to each electorate office allows the bandwidth or network speeds to increase without being limited by the cabling infrastructure,'' the spokeswoman said.
Ridiculous. Really they don't get to know what it's like for other nearby businesses and company's to be stuck on copper trying to do the same things (I.e Video conferencing)
I don't know how to put this but i'll do my best � Because most politicians couldn't tell the difference between copper and Fibre when it comes to internet connections most of not all(?) will say you'll be able to do Video conferencing just fine on your connection. But we can't as the connection is poor and the speed / bandwidth isn't able to keep up with the application.
Good idea to scrap the up to 12/1 Speed Tier.
+1 for this, (and I hate to say it) but if anything goes wrong with Skymuster then it would be good to have 12/1 as a back up but 25/5 should be the minimum speed (At least with they way things are with FTTN being here and what not)
especially in regards to speed tiers. They need to go.
That will simply show how unequal the NBN is between the various technologies as some simply cannot support high speeds.
Breaking news, Stephen Conroy resigned.
And there goes any hope that the new committiee will scrutinize this flapping mess.
the government is so out of touch not understanding that between middle aged users on netflix and high bandwidth usage gaming (im also a gamer) and kids smashing free game downloads, big mods and youtubing like crazy means the nbn is screwed before its finished.
That sums up just what it looks like. But there may be a bit more to it, if we look at some of the people, and the detail, behind the facade of endless PR spin.
The person responsible for aborting NBN and imposing the dire MTM was described by a colleague as 'Having practically invented the Internet.'
A most unlikely claim; but we must assume he would, or should, have known FTTP-based NBN was the only way our future needs could be met. Despite this, he wilfully went ahead and killed off NBN on the flimsiest political rationale.
Adding insult to injury, they still assert only 'gamers, gamblers and pron freaks' would use/need NBN capabilities over the rest of this century � an assertion so stupid it answers itself.
Steven Conroy's future contributions to shaping the Federal Coalition NBN/MTM policy.
Take your pick.
(a) Board member of NBNCo
(b) Board member of Telstra
(c.) Director of a Frank Buijc owned entity
(d) Whirlpool NBN thread troll-slayer
(e) Sky News Live Political Commentator
(a) Board member of NBNCo
But, but � Malcolm only appoints the right people to his charades organisations! :-P
flimsiest political rationale.
Politics comes first. Wants and needs comes last.
Adding insult to injury, they still assert only 'gamers, gamblers and pron freaks' would use/need NBN capabilities over the rest of this century
Agreed, they are stubborn and blind. Look we have told them too much that it isn't just for streaming but having the ability to work from home for instance and access your content faster without having to get the sh*ts waiting and go elsewhere. If FTTH had been kept imagine what Australia would be like for good now?
Work from home � Depending on what the job is you'll would of been working from home and that means fewer vehicles on the road because everyone isn't in a rush to get to and from work. Working from home means that you wouldn't have to leave your home to go to work and you would be in your own space without having to put up with your workers for the day.
(Okay entertainment factor here but hear me on this) You want a movie but don't want to head to the movie store or the supermarket. Guess what? You can stream it without leaving the comfort of your home so you won't have to get in a car. head to the shops and come back just for the movie. Just pick up the TV remote, get comfy on the couch, choose a streaming app of your choice and pay for membership and find the movie and your good to go.
Work becomes more efficient? Ah this is a good one, being faster means work will be done faster right? Perhaps and probably so. Seeing that upload meter go from 42:31 to something around 2:30 (2 mins, 30 seconds) means you'll get your work uploaded quicker and won't have to pace around the PC every x amount of minuets to check on the upload time. Guess what? Thanks to that quicker upload speed you'll have more time to meet the deadline if your client or yourself doesn't like something and wants changers. Compared to older technology where it's back to 42 minuets:31 seconds all over again just to fix a simple change. There won't also be much uploading happening overnight either so you won't have to leave your PC on to upload files overnight anymore which means your power costs will be reduced by a bit.
what im saying is that the government is so out of touch not understanding that between middle aged users on netflix and high bandwidth usage gaming (im also a gamer) and kids smashing free game downloads, big mods and youtubing like crazy means the nbn is screwed before its finished.
Those are all pleasure things.
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite where the Labor satellites they ordered are so small in capacity that the users on it can only dream of what other on fttn can do. Well a few complained, but they were quickly told where to go.
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite
Just remember Mate. Turnbull Wanted those satellites scrapped too. So he's just as bad.
They (The people on them) can thank themselves lucky that their SAT wasn't scrapped in the end. if Mal had the dummy he's way he would of cut and scrapped them without fuss.
(c.) Director of a Frank Buijc owned entity
LOL, CVs can be sent for the time being to our head office. It is for sale, too much maintenance. Only 25m euro. First owner Fritz Philips. Yes, from the globes. And whatever you do, don't forget to watch the video. :P
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite
Perhaps you have a somewhat limited, or selective, memory on that topic.
From opposition, Malcolm Turnbull complained endlessly, and inaccurately, about every aspect of the NBN Co satellite program. It was a different story once he was minister, when he was fond of talking about the coming nbn� sats as if they had been all his own idea.
If the HFC is a ClusterFlap what term will they use for nbn�'s (mis)management of the sub-sub-contracting arrangements for satellite dish installations.
http://www.zdnet.com/article
In news just to hand .......... dit,dit, d, dit, dit ...... apparently Bill Morrow has put through an order for kilometres of more new copper to be purchased to enable each home owner's satellite dish to be connected directly to Sky Muster. Initially nbn� will be trialling just one outback station home for this new Copper from the Satellite Dish to the Satellite (CftSDttS).
It is rumoured that Senator Conroy goy wind of this through a leak from nbn� yesterday, threw his hands up in disgust and said "That's the last straw .... I'm resigning!"
And whatever you do, don't forget to watch the video. :P
Watch the video! You're kidding. The front page took 45 seconds to load. I'd be buffering all night trying to watch a video from that site!
The 2 fibres are aggregated, so its up/down afaik.
That makes sense. If it was me I'd certainly be installing up/down optics day 1.
2000Mbps / 200 = (I know its tricky maths here) .... 10Mbps each
that's still under both the minimum AND the coexistence minimum. So assuming omse uploading as well, then it comes down again.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue.
Because it is not an issue. If every one of those 200 users had purchased the 50/20 tier then that would give you a 5:1 peak contention ratio which is actually *good*. Gold plated even for residential broadband. This is not going to be the bottleneck. Now if it was 20:1 then I'd be more concerned....
Because it is not an issue. If every one of those 200 users had purchased the 50/20 tier
and just 40 of them tried to use it at the same time, then the network would be congested.
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite where the Labor satellites they ordered are so small in capacity
the satellites were supposed to handle a frasction of the traffic that has already been dumped onto them
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite where the Labor satellites they ordered are so small in capacity that the users on it can only dream of what other on fttn can do.
What you seem to be missing are the facts that Turnbull opposed the building of the satellites at all, that he is pushing extra premises from the fixed line footprint to the satellite footprint increasing the load, and that it was nbn� under Turnbull who set the FUP, not NBNCo under Labor.
and just 40 of them tried to use it at the same time, then the network would be congested.
And sure, if that happened on any kind of a regular basis, you would have a problem. But it never does. Access networks are always designed with contention. Just as the roads are not designed to carry every vehicle that is registered at the same time.
Watch the video! You're kidding. The front page took 45 seconds to load. I'd be buffering all night trying to watch a video from that site!
Yeah, I suppose it is made for proper broadband speeds commonly found in innovative and agile countries.
If the HFC is a ClusterFlap what term will they use for nbn�'s (mis)management of the sub-sub-contracting arrangements for satellite dish installations.
but Skymuster seems to have created lots of call centre spots in RSPs
jobs and growth
http://www.totaltele.com/view.aspx?ID=494978
Total telecom pick up on conroys exit
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement
:( When he first started out, he was cluelessly going to put a "filter" on internet against tech advice � this changed as he took on the role of promoting the mostly FTTP version of NBN. And he became more WP aware.
Miss him already.
Miss him already.
If he reads this, thanks for the fibre to the premises internet box that is in this room. Has never dropped out once. Have done downloads and uploads with it in a few months that I never did in 10 years of ADSL. Australia will get fibre to the premises internet as a common thing. The first fleet gendarmes didn't want the convict populace to get anything. They opposed copper phone lines in about 1910. They opposed sewered homes. They opposed Medibank. They oppose anything for the people Downton Abbey style. But in the end FTTP will still happen.
Because most politicians couldn't tell the difference between copper and Fibre when it comes to internet connections most of not all(?) will say you'll be able to do Video conferencing just fine on your connection.
However, the really ironic part is that all politicians have Fibre to their offices because copper doesn't cut it for their needs.
Australia will get fibre to the premises internet as a common thing.
But we may get it much later than most countries.
We can test that message.
(And yes we can test the bits vs bytes nomenclature)
To use it, not to build i
That pays for it
Just another thought you know 25mbps does not mean 25MBps right?
stay posted :)
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
Yep. This is a problem.
If only there was a way to stream high-quality video to a remote device, he'd have got to see his daughter's soccer-playing...
But in the end FTTP will still happen
I want it to happen in my lifetime where i can actaully use it for something and not for an hour when i get home before i feel like i should sleep lol
And sure, if that happened on any kind of a regular basis, you would have a problem. But it never does. Access networks are always designed with contention. Just as the roads are not designed to carry every vehicle that is registered at the same time.
Well, those on congested services would disagree with "But it never does".
Optical fibre to the premises is a game-changer because of its data carrying capacity. Dedicated bandwidth e.g. for live streaming (and no-one has mentioned multi-cast over NBN lately) wouldn't require more fibres in the access networks of FTTP areas, just something better than the current pricing arrangements.
Not NBN directly but it relates to how BT in the UK deal with cabinets that reach capacity, which I guess will eventually happen to NBN nodes -
Also NBN love to spout lab copper results, I see they didn't post this on their "blog" about fibre lab results -
https://fossbytes.com/nokia-
They must have accidently missed it :)
Just another thought you know 25mbps does not mean 25MBps right?
Wish there was a clearer convention, MB vs mb is easily confused.
Wish there was a clearer convention, MB vs mb is easily confused.
Why would there be any confusion between mbps and MBps? S/
Why would there be any confusion between mbps and MBps? S/
Technically it's Mbps and MBps. I like the confusion, helps separate out the people with knowledge on tech. Makes it easy to ignore articles when they mix it up
I like the confusion, helps separate out the people with knowledge on tech.
Ahhhh ..... technical snobbery. ;) You're probably a prolific user of TLAs in conversation I presume.
Amusing and ironic to see this article plastered with ads on the side that state
Find out more > nbn� bring it on
And the author of the article can't do better than raise rubbish about 'legends'.
According to political legend, Conroy � unable to pin down then prime minister Rudd to an office appointment � arranged to travel with Rudd on a VIP flight in early 2009. High in the air, he and Rudd are said to have mapped out an early iteration of the NBN on the back of a paper napkin.
But don't let facts get in the way of a MSM article.
https://delimiter.co
s/ What an esteemed journalist Tony Wright proves himself to be! s/
Ahhhh ..... technical snobbery. ;) You're probably a prolific user of TLAs in conversation I presume.
Well, if one is going to talk tech, may as well get it right so that people understand the metrics being discussed. An argument about MB as opposed to an argument about Mb would each have different outcomes in the one context.
Well, if one is going to talk tech, may as well get it right so that people understand the metrics being discussed.
Ahhh I think you miss my point. Who could disagree with accuracy. I completely agree that we get things right so that people understand the issue being discussed. A common sense position on your part.
I was addressing the comment in the post that I like the confusion, helps separate out the people with knowledge on tech.
How does the promotion of confusion assist people's understanding of issues?
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