Due to the other thread becoming a little off topic I have worked with a mod to get the thread back so we can continue discussion on this important issue that will shape the future of Australian communications for many years to come.
FTTN (Fiber to the node) is the removing of customers from pre-existing out dated technology at the exchange to newer more capable nodes that will be able to offer speeds of up to 24mbit and then onto FTTH (Fiber to the Home) in the next 5-15 years. The Nodes are speculated to be used as Fiber aggregation points (like a fiber DSLAM) in the not to distant future. The nodes will take anyone that is over 1.5KM line distance to the exchange to ensure faster more reliable services to even more people and remove some well known black spots.
Please try and keep the discussion on topic guys.
Thank you, Evan.
Futurama writes...
Due to the other thread becoming a little off topic
Yes it did,however the topic is wide and far as the politics behind it being implemented.
have worked with a mod to get the thread back so we can continue discussion
Well done Futurama, this whole issue will be debated for a long time, as this is a major investment to get off the ground and will shape the future of the internet in aus.
Please try and keep the discussion on topic guys.
We will do our best...
And if your looking for the original thread forum-replies.cfm?t=442765#r1
pros
1 faster broadband in the deep suburbs...
2 lead onto VOD & video telephoney...
3 lot better service due to losing redundant old copper mains...
cons...
1 only being able to receive a connection from telstra(wholesale ISP) if you are in the 2/3 that ain't connected to the exchange...(just like rims atm)
2 its not FTTH/P...
Frinky. writes...
1 only being able to receive a connection from telstra(wholesale ISP) if you are in the 2/3 that ain't connected to the exchange...(just like rims atm)
Voice only though yeh? You can still get normall internet with who ever you want?
Well what is fair.
If you take a physical look where most exchanges are , they are not amounst housing they are usually is a commerical area.
As the radius from the exchange grows so does the amount of houses so most on an exchange (in the suburbs) would be so far away they would be stuck with 4mbs.
This will hinder them in getting content that is lined up for adsl2+ such as movies on line
By fitting Fttn's this would make it fairer for many users to access at better speeds
The debate on if telstra will wholesale is much in the air, Telstra will be holding this close to its chest due to current politics, sale of telstra and amount of investment/return
Futurama writes...
Voice only though yeh? You can still get normall internet with who ever you want?
probably not, the IP DSLAMs they were looking at combined both voice and data into a singe point. FTTN nodes would appear to effectively be RIMs? with telstra DSLAMs in them.
Futurama writes...
You can still get normall internet with who ever you want?
and also, you can apply for a transportation if there is copper(like current rims)...
stoneyyy writes...
The debate on if telstra will wholesale is much in the air
in the first FTTN proposal, telstra said it would wholesale, but not at ACCC bare rate...
they wanted less regulation in the pricing area....
they will wholesale...
rhom writes...
probably not, the IP DSLAMs they were looking at combined both voice and data into a singe point. FTTN nodes would appear to effectively be RIMs? with telstra DSLAMs in them.
like the integrated cmux's of today?....
Frinky. writes...
in the first FTTN proposal, telstra said it would wholesale, but not at ACCC bare rate...
I agree too, making that sort of investment why would you want to sell it at bargin basement rates
Take this for an example, when new products come out they are expensive, look at plasma tvs for example, not so long ago they were over $40,000 each. The price is to offset some devoplement costs etc.
The same way telstra would be looking for a return on over 10 billion dollars worth of investment
stoneyyy writes...
I agree too, making that sort of investment why would you want to sell it at bargin basement rates
this is b..shit and you know it as the accc as part of its mandate has to set costs at the recovery rate of building a new network and not just maintenance
Frinky. writes...
like the integrated cmux's of today?....
not sure, the alcatel web site
has info on an overall possibility.
When time-to-market pressures or near term economics do not permit the deployment of FTTU for triple play services, an interim step must be taken.
Using Alcatel's fiber-to-the-node solutions, service providers can deploy advanced DSL technologies such as VDSL2, leveraging the existing copper plant to deliver IPTV and other triple play services.
Highlights:
# Achieve speeds of 25+ Mbps over a single copper pair with VDSL2
# Native IP architecture ensures platform efficiency
# Built on ISAM technology, for service ubiquity with Alcatel fiber-to-the-user (FTTU) solutions
have a look at the specs for this Alcatel 7330 ISAM FTTN ETSI
edit: read the PDFs, there are some nice network / layout diagrams in them.
dave c writes...
this is b..shit and you know it as the accc as part of its mandate has to set costs at the recovery rate of building a new network and not just maintenance
And what costs did they set?
dave c writes...
this is b..shit and you know it as the accc as part of its mandate has to set costs at the recovery rate of building a new network and not just maintenance
You wish amego. 4 hours of a techs day working on a ULL and there goes 4-5 months worth of income for telstra.
Frinky. writes...
and also, you can apply for a transposition if there is copper(like current rims)...
the copper would terminate at the node. the ability for transpositions would require ISPs to install their own DSLAMs or ISAMs (if they went that far) in the node as well. i can't see them having a problem with that but it would seem pointless to duplicate the infrastructure that far in.
perhaps this is the issue the competition brought up. wholesale wanting an access fee out of proportion to what they're paying now. although technically anyone on FTTN wouldn't have been able to have ADSL previously anyway so they'd all be new customers.
if the telstra wholesale charge was high i would presume the telstra retail price would be higher still. do you think people want ADSL that badly? it's got to cost more than the current telstra ADSL plans (although hopefully they'd at least be getting ADSL2+ speeds)
rhom writes...
if the telstra wholesale charge was high i would presume the telstra retail price would be higher still
If the wholesale agreements are the same as what they are now with adsl
rhom writes...
the ability for transpositions would require ISPs to install their own DSLAMs
telstra stated in the FTTN plan that here would be "some" left in the ground back to the exchange...
although technically anyone on FTTN wouldn't have been able to have ADSL previously anyway so they'd all be new customers.
no, they are doing it to 2/3 of the exchange basin...
with a max line of 1.5kms...
adsl can be got on a 4km line atm...
do you think people want ADSL that badly? it's got to cost more than the current telstra ADSL plans (although hopefully they'd at least be getting ADSL2+ speeds)
maybe, maybe not..
less maintained...
more customers...(pays the bills)
they still have compete with optus HFC(they have a fair bit of cable..)
and wireless could poke its head in...
Frinky. writes...
they still have compete with optus HFC(they have a fair bit of cable..)
and wireless could poke its head in...
Optus cable is vic, nsw queensland only. They didn't finish cable in Adelaide, there is some on poles unused.
Wireless seems to be the only option here, but I have to wait for that to be built. Stupid Telstra won't even give me a copper line so I can apply for ADSL2 at least.
Having looked at the technical details for FTTN hardware I have to admit Telstra's proposal looks more interesting now. Obviously they are limiting speeds to 8 Mbps to prevent it being used for TV/live video feeds (as this would complete with cable).
However its Telstra's pricing and customer service which is the real thing which could make or break FTTN. People just wont put up with bad service, poor maintainance, and shoody pricing.
fabricator writes...
Optus cable is vic, nsw queensland only. They didn't finish cable in Adelaide, there is some on poles unused.
They far from finished rolling out cable in vic too.
They took the cheap overhead option and got bitched at too much cos it was an eyesore
Then with underground areas they could not afford it
They were not interested in looking after everyone so i am not interested in them
there is nothing left to discuss on this subject as it was all said in the other thread over and over.
if telstra really want to go ahead with FTTN without regulation then all as they have to do is tell the ACCC that they will wholesale and tell them what the wholesale price is, let the ACCC mull it over and then once accepted they can get on with deployment. problem solved and everyone is happy.
the only question left to ask is why haven't they done that yet.
.
Sam Silvester writes...
I haven't whined at all.
snip
Oh, you are talking about pricing being too low? Why then is it Bigpond who keep undercutting wholesale pricing?
Tilt!
Tolmartyr writes...
If we are talking FTTN then want the infrastructure for peanuts is $25 to $26 billion over five years.
that's different. That is partialy new infrastructure but it still relies on the copper that has regulatory conditions attached (as part of the sale). Anything that uses that copper is subject to regulation. Telstra wants to change this and eliminate all competition.
The sale of Telstra has in no way amounted to the real cost of building and maintaining the network. The taxpayers (care of the government) got the raw end of that deal.
Their next step will be to remove the annoying copper and use fibre. However that too will have the same regulatory conditions as the copper.
Telstra has had billions in government funding to build their network, a monopoly to ensure it had ROI quickly and was able to charge accordingly. I only ask that if anyone is expected to duplicate this network they be afforded the same treatment and perks.
Bill Bolton writes...
Tilt!
Ahem ;) Please don't quote me out of context!
I'm saying that if you feel Telstra's wholesale price is too low, then they shouldn't be retailing for less again...as they have done.
Reaper writes...
Telstra has had billions in government funding to build their network
Show me where?
The post and telecommuications was started by government to start with to ensure australia got off the ground with it as evenly as possible
Telstra (telecom) has always funeded its own way since way back before it was separted from the post.
Most of the network it has paid for, and not from any government hand outs, its also paid tax and a return to the government.
Sam Silvester writes...
I'm saying that if you feel Telstra's wholesale price is too low, then they shouldn't be retailing for less again.
You see many Telstra fanbois bring out the "whenever bigpond lowers prices the ISPs all kick up a stink" when that is only a half truth.
It matters not if bigpond lowers its prices competitively. It only matters if they lower it below (or too close to) wholesale prices that don't allow for margins.
As it stands most of their plans are more than double the wholesale prices so there is room to move down if they want to. They clearly do not want to.
Sam Silvester writes...
I'm saying that if you feel Telstra's wholesale price is too low, then they shouldn't be retailing for less again...as they have done.
Once.
Reaper writes...
Telstra has had billions in government funding to build their network,
No they didn't.
Reaper writes...
As it stands most of their plans are more than double the wholesale prices so there is room to move down if they want to. They clearly do not want to.
They offer a different product you can not compare a hyundai to a bmw
Reaper writes...
As it stands most of their plans are more than double the wholesale prices so there is room to move down if they want to.
It's not a case of what "most" of their plans are placed at though - it's been demonstrated that if they sell (say) a 256/64k service for less than the wholesale port cost (which in itself is only one aspect of what a competing carrier has to pay to use the service, but that's another story), then the ACCC is likely to step in.
Then there are those on this thread who claim that we are "complaining" or "whining" about pricing (which I'm not at all :P) or say we are getting a "free ride" because the wholesale cost doesn't reflect a fair commercial price. Blaming the ACCC for this is just silly, because it is Telstra's choice as to what they charge for a port (as long as their behavour doesn't fall into the region of being anti-competitive).
No matter how you look at it - other carriers are NOT looking for a handout, we are NOT looking for a "free ride". We are looking for competitive access. Nothing more, nothing less.
Sam Silvester writes...
I'm saying that if you feel Telstra's wholesale price is too low, then they shouldn't be retailing for less again...as they have done.
yes once, and how much did they have to pay others isps
Sam Silvester writes...
We are looking for competitive access. Nothing more, nothing less.
That depends on how you define competitive access. its a good buzz word to hide behind
stoneyyy writes...
yes once, and how much did they have to pay others isps
with or without discounts?...
Ringer writes...
Here Telstra is going to help those people
That is true and is the main advantage of the FTTN proposal,
but on the other hand what about those people who are already on ADSL/2+ with a competitor ISP but are more than 1.5km from the exchange ?? (also bearing in mind that we are just in the beginning phase of the roll-out of ADSL/2+ services).
Some of the concerns that have been expressed in terms of the possible implications of Telstra�s FFTN network on ULLS are:
* existing DSLAMs already deployed by competitors in exchanges may be stranded or bypassed if these exchanges are subject to decommissioning as part of Telstra�s plans
* the ability of competitors gaining customers from existing DSLAMs deployed in exchanges would be reduced as Telstra either immediately or progressively migrates customers� copper connections from the exchange to the nodes
* there may be a reduction in the size of the addressable market per DSLAM installed by competing network providers either at the new node or at the existing exchange point
* Competitors may incur substantial increases in capital and operating expenditure under Telstra�s proposal as they may be required to:
� increase the number of DSLAMS to service a given area (30-40 or more nodes/DSLAMs per area)
� build cabinets next to Telstra�s node and build trenches to interconnect into Telstra�s cabinet, if Telstra�s cabinet is not of sufficient size to accommodate competitors� DSLAMs. In this event, access-seekers will also need to incur additional costs in supplying their power, cooling systems and security
� deploy an optical fibre network for backhaul transmission back to the access-seekers network if access to the existing optical fibre is not permitted.
It is not clear to the Commission whether the above concerns are justified. Until further details are made available from Telstra, it would be difficult to form any definitive view on the precise implications of the FTTN deployment on the provision of the ULLS.
A strategic review of the regulation of fixed network services
Telstra's FTTN proposal is to move about two thirds of lines to FTTN - that is a significant number of people that would be affected in terms of choice of Telco/ISP, both now and in the future.
Clearly this raises a number of issues for the ACCC as regulator which require careful consideration and assessment. These reviews are undertaken on the basis of the long-term interests of end-user (LTIE) criteria focussing particularly on efficient competition and investment outcomes.
For now the FTTN proposal remains on hold
www.telstra.com.au/about...bretothenode.pdf
stoneyyy writes...
yes once
So - now how exactly is it the ISPs fault that Telstra are selling wholesale ports "too cheap" again?
Sam Silvester writes...
Ahem ;) Please don't quote me out of context!
What is it about "whine" that you doen't understand then?
how much was your discount at that time sam...
can bigpond have volume discount like you guys?...
or would that be a to fair playing field?....
Sam Silvester writes...
No matter how you look at it - other carriers are NOT looking for a handout, we are NOT looking for a "free ride". We are looking for competitive access. Nothing more, nothing less.
But you would always be on the lookout for a 'cheaper' ride, competitive access is no good unless it is profitable access.
I assume you are making a profit at the moment being able to access the Telstra infrastructure to feed your DSLAM's?
Frinky. writes...
can bigpond have volume discount like you guys?...
Sure. Can they also be forced to buy ATM connections and AGVC to get to their customers like us too?
would that be a to fair playing field?
Not a worry here ;)
Sam Silvester writes...
Can they also be forced to buy
cant you buy space in there center?
don't make an excuse....
Freycinet writes...
Telstra's FTTN proposal is to move about two thirds of lines to FTTN - that is a significant number of people that would be affected in terms of choice of Telco/ISP, both now and in the future.
Just what part of....
"It is not clear to the Commission whether the above concerns are justified. Until further details are made available from Telstra, it would be difficult to form any definitive view on the precise implications of the FTTN deployment on the provision of the ULLS."
... can't you comprehend?
Tolmartyr writes...
The problem Telstra has with FTTN is that it has a product that gives them a marketing edge but if any ISP is allowed to have access on a equal basis they can provide any high-speed broadband product on FTTN just like Telstra retail.
so telstra isn't capable of competing fairly in an open market with the same products?
That's fine but if the Telstra shareholder is footing the bill they should expect a risk free return on the investment otherwise Telstra might as well spend the dollars on BHP and Bank shares and get a less risky but still substantial return on the investment.
if telstra retail can compete in the current dsl market using the same equipment then there should be no reason why they can't compete in the FTTN market while still giving a return on investment to it's shareholders. Telstra don't just want to be able to fairly compete, they want to be able to completely crush their rivals using FTTN
nuggets writes...
so telstra isn't capable of competing fairly in an open market with the same products?
nup, ACCC steps in when thay try to price match....
Frinky. writes...
nup, ACCC steps in when thay try to price match....
this has already been covered in the old thread.
telstra don't price match nor has the ACCC ever stepped in for telstra price matching.
nuggets writes...
so telstra isn't capable of competing fairly in an open market with the same products?
It's not as simple as that, because it is the builder of FTTN as well as the retailer and wholesaler.
Telstra may well compete very well with retail FTTN based products, but it is also fronting up with the 25 billion dollars of its money to provide those products.
It's going to be awhile for that 25 billion to be eaten away by revenue from FTTN no matter how you look at it so that they break even in the first phase then start to make a profit.
Those ISP's and international Telco's that market FTTN product from Day 1 have no such overheads, they pay wholesale access for FTTN which maybe determined by the ACCC and start making revenue with no 'infrastructure build overheads' from Day 1.
Telstra retail 'competes' with all other ISP's/Telco's with FTTN product, sure it will sell but what about the payback period on the original investment?
nuggets writes...
telstra don't price match nor has the ACCC ever stepped in for telstra price matching.
really?....have another seach of google....
fabricator writes...
Obviously they are limiting speeds to 8 Mbps
Actually the FTTN proposal was for 12Mb/s to allow viseo
nuggets writes...
so telstra isn't capable of competing fairly in an open market with the same products?
40% market share and growing isn't "competing fairly in an open market"? You notTbois certainly know how to spin, spin, spin!
cable1 writes...
FTTN proposal was for 12Mb/s
12 +
Frinky. writes...
really?....have another seach of google....
There is only issue when the retail price is lower or leaves insufficient room for margins. Telstra can compete competitively. Just not anti-competitively.
Reaper writes...
Telstra can compete competitively. Just not anti-competitively.
whos the judge?...isps that sue, or cry poor when it happens...
so bigpond gose off and charges a good price with some great content, and then every one bashes them....
Tolmartyr writes...
It's not as simple as that, because it is the builder of FTTN as well as the retailer and wholesaler.
yep and this is the problem with the current set up of telstra. but we wont get into this here as we will go way of topic.
Telstra may well compete very well with retail FTTN based products, but it is also fronting up with the 25 billion dollars of its money to provide those products.
so why not set a wholesale price that will get them return on investment in a fair timeframe and give it to the ACCC and see what they have to say.
It's going to be awhile for that 25 billion to be eaten away by revenue from FTTN no matter how you look at it so that they break even in the first phase then start to make a profit.
no matter which way telstra go it would take a long time to recoup 25 billion dollars.
hose ISP's and international Telco's that market FTTN product from Day 1 have no such overheads, they pay wholesale access for FTTN which maybe determined by the ACCC and start making revenue with no 'infrastructure build overheads' from Day 1.
and telstra can charge those isp's a wholesale price that will help them recover the cost of the build which will give them a second revenue stream. instead of making money solely out of it's retail arm it would be making money out of it's wholesale arm as well.
Telstra retail 'competes' with all other ISP's/Telco's with FTTN product, sure it will sell but what about the payback period on the original investment?
no matter which way they went it would be a long time before they recouped the money
nuggets writes...
no matter which way they went it would be a long time before they recouped the money
Yes indeed, you have mentioned that twice now, so therefore Telstra has the right to weigh up the risk the lack of a regulatory holiday would give them, and make a decision not to go ahead, there is too much at stake.
I'm going to make a big reply to this entire thread.
Fact 1: Telstra Wholesale charge competitors more then they charge Bigpond.
My oppinion: Current regulation states that TW has to provide access to both Bigpond and it's competitors. However, charging a different price is in complete violation of anti-competition. Telstra are able to charge their customers less, because the outrageous prices they charge competitors offsets this. Basically, it's Bigpond customers who get a free ride from people like me, who have paid a premium rate for internet for 5 years already. All ISP's want to do is compete on a level playing field, which means, TW charging the same to both Bigpond and their competitors. Why is this unfair? TW has the obligation to do this, yet doesn't.
Fact 2: Telstra want to design a network where they are the only ones providing it, and competitors are pushed out.
My oppinion: Don't confuse the issue, ISP's would probably gladly pay an equal share of the investment in FTTN, if it meant an equality. However, this isn't why Telstra are doing this, they want 100% access, pure monopoly. And none of you Telstra fans understand that a pure monopoly means higher prices. The only reason bigpond can charge so little, is because their competitors force it that way. If there was no competition, your prices would be more then double and you know it. ISP's such as node, iinet, netspace, and many others have been "keeping the bastards honest". You owe guys like this Adam rep a debt of thanks for forcing bigpond prices low. So next time you feel like shunning the guy, remember that they are out there trying to give the people of Australia the lowest prices possible.
Fact 3: People will miss out on FTTN if we don't jump on the Telstra bandwagon.
My oppinion: You just don't get it, your thinking in 2 dimensions here. Next generation technology will grace our streets no matter who puts it there. It's a dead certainty that we will get faster internet connections eventually. However your only thinking of your selfish needs. Your thinking "I want it now, stuff competition". You're so wrong. We are going to get it no matter what, it might not be called FTTN, it might be some other technology that comes along and blows FTTN out of the water.
Fact 4: I don't care about what you have to say, if your going to insult me in the process.
My oppinion: If you wish to argue my points, do so without the insults, any insults will be ignored. But just remember, Telstra are holding this country back as much as they can to gain as much profit out of old technology, before it upgrades. The truth is, nobody is capable of competing on a level playing field, but they are trying, it's a terrible uphill battle. Telstra aren't doing you or me any favours, and you think they are out to reward us all? Nope, the future is grim. It's a picture of an internet where everything costs money, and Telstra picks up a tiny bit of everything.
Frinky. writes...
really?....have another seach of google....
wow this is repetitive.
this was explained to you in the other thread and you said at the time that you understood the difference.
telstra have to set it's wholesale and retail price at a far enough margin that other isp's can compete.
if an isp can afford to have a $40 512 plan with 20GB of data then telstra has every right to do a plan at the exact same price. this is price matching.
what telstra can't do is set a wholesale and retail price at a level that's so close that an isp can't make any profit from it. this is not price matching this is loss leading for all other isp's
Donnie Darko writes...
Fact 1: Telstra Wholesale charge competitors more then they charge Bigpond
Really, Can you please show me proof of this
Fact 2: Telstra want to design a network where they are the only ones providing it, and competitors are pushed out.
No they have said they will wholesale.
Fact 3: People will miss out on FTTN if we don't jump on the Telstra bandwagon
Once again your wrong
Fact 4: I don't care about what you have to say, if your going to insult me in the process.
No need to insult you, just keep talking
Fact 1.... do some reseach
Donnie Darko writes...
Telstra Wholesale charge competitors more then they charge Bigpond.
funny that......operational separation...
they want 100% access
66.6%access in metro areas...(while leving in some copper back to exchange...)
in all new metro areas it will be fiber...
My oppinion
well mine is, why the fark will any company invest anything new if it is going to be regulated?
note, telstra is the only company that is regulated to do so...
there will never be a even playing field if such regulation persists...
and investment will lead over seas. or with smaller companys that take the cream but not the milk....
nuggets writes...
what telstra can't do is set a wholesale and retail price at a level that's so close that an isp can't make any profit from it. this is not price matching this is loss leading for all other isp's
did you ever take into account of volume disounts?
every ISP loved there volume discount.....BUT bigpond dont get the same?....
fair playing field my ass...
Donnie Darko writes...
Fact 1: Telstra Wholesale charge competitors more then they charge Bigpond.
Fact 1A: BigPond ADSL prices are the highest of all their competitors and provide very poor value.
You owe guys like this Adam rep a debt of thanks for forcing bigpond prices low.
see Fact 1A.
Basically, it's Bigpond customers who get a free ride from people like me, who have paid a premium rate for internet for 5 years already.
see Fact 1A.
Don't confuse the issue, ISP's would probably gladly pay an equal share of the investment in FTTN, if it meant an equality.
Err I don't think so, you are confusing equal share of access with equal share of risk.
Next generation technology will grace our streets no matter who puts it there.
Telstra.
We are going to get it no matter what, it might not be called FTTN, it might be some other technology that comes along and blows FTTN out of the water.
It will still be provided by Telstra.
Telstra aren't doing you or me any favours, and you think they are out to reward us all?
You need to be 'rewarded', why?
but they are trying, it's a terrible uphill battle.
Yep it's terrible all these ISP's running at a loss just to give us a internet alternative to BigPond.
Tolmartyr writes...
BigPond ADSL prices are the highest of all their competitors and provide very poor value.
debatable :P
good value on low plans..
good content on high plans...
Frinky. writes...
did you ever take into account of volume disounts?
what volume discounts. please show me these volume discounts.
every ISP loved there volume discount.....BUT bigpond dont get the same?....
fair playing field my ass...
how do you give yourself a volume discount.
FYI Donnie Darko
bc.whirlpool.net.au/isp.cfm/Exetel/340.html
exetel have better plans then iiNet...(have to go with homeline + with telstra)
edit...
exetel are TW....just so YOU know....
iiNet are a company like telstra, there to make a profit, they don't subsidise...
Frinky. writes...
btw im with iinet...
As am I.
Blocking bigpond users would be stupid. These very forums once were hosted of a bigpond cable connection.
Futurama writes...
These very forums once were hosted of a bigpond cable connection.
lol....forums are OFFLINE...
mistylane writes...
I am questioning the $209 - seems very excessive???
Canon could probably explain the process involved???
No you explain the process that led you to conclude that $209 is excessive - without knowing what the process is!
Frinky. writes...
lol....forums are OFFLINE...
lol so that doesn't happen anymore ?
Frinky. writes...
all i can say...we will never have "true" competition without 2 networks...period...
Thats true....and its always going to be snow balling problem, until other alternatives are found.
Tolmartyr writes...
No you explain the process that led you to conclude that $209 is excessive - without knowing what the process is!
That is a very good question. But I doubt you will get a reply from Misty on that one, if you do it will be mumble jumble followed by you being called a fanbios and how much of a monster telstra is
The duplicate network - two/three/four/five/six???
This is what regulation is about - Telstra own the network and are subject to a telco license and regulation. You'll probably be surprised that this is done i nthe interests of all Australians and the telco industry in general.
The "why not build multiple networks" view is a Telstra-centric one - it ignores the rest of the industry and government policy.
You will find a balance must be struck - it's no use taking the "Telstra can do anything it wants" line - it simply is not the case!
Tolmartyr writes...
hout knowing what the process is!
It seems some here are willing to explain the process - you're a tad late on the personal attack?? You too stoneyy..... pretty poor form.
Remember quite a few people read these forums.......
mistylane writes...
It seems some here are willing to explain the process - you're a tad late on the personal attack??
That was not a personal attack. ( A personal attack would be saying "Jason your mum is ugly").
He was simply saying that you seem to think it is over priced yet you know nothing of the work which is required. So you do know I will run you through it.
1. A new phone port at the exchange is programmed for the customer
2. Tech recieves his work on his laptop over a VPN connection to the Telstra LAN.
3. Tech drives to the exchange .
4. Tech finds old ULL line.
5. Tech disconnects the line and pullts through the jumper cable.
6. Tech Finds the new points to jumper.
7. Tech runs a jumper.
8. Tech tests with his BUT.
9. Tech clears off the job.
10. Customer recieves a call to make sure everything is okay.
11. Customer is billed
mistylane writes...
You will find a balance must be struck - it's no use taking the "Telstra can do anything it wants" line - it simply is not the case!
It is their network, it should be able to upgrade it to offer more ADSL as it sees fit.
mistylane writes...
It seems some here are willing to explain the process - you're a tad late on the personal attack?? You too stoneyy..... pretty poor form.
A question to you is not a personal attack, maybe you are calling it that so the post is removed
I just replied to the post........ the network is Telstra's but it is under regulation/telco license/various conditions for good reason.
One of them is to ensure a thriving, competitive telco industry - the other is to ensure consumers have access to competitive products.
If you think this is not occurring, I suggest you contact your local MP or form a lobby group (aka nowwearetalking .com.au)
No you explain the process that led you to conclude that $209 is excessive - without knowing what the process is!
mistylane writes...
It seems some here are willing to explain the process - you're a tad late on the personal attack?? You too stoneyy..... pretty poor form.
stoneyy writes...
That is a very good question. But I doubt you will get a reply from Misty on that one, if you do it will be mumble jumble
lol you were right on the money stoneyy!
looks like this thread is turning into part 1 - senseless atatcks and no discussion on the issues....
mistylane writes...
Optus indeed are the first big ADSL2 provider which will be enabled in a few months time.
Where have Optus stated they will be providing ADSL2 in a few months time?
They are gearing up their retail chain now - yes there is no official announcement date set but a few Optus workers I know say they are on track for a 'serious consumer trial' end February (a limited one is occurring now) - the migration to their own DSLAMS is still progressing and should be completed around March (nothing to do with Telstra holding up migrations - naah - never!) - this is when they will have a better idea of a launch date (which ties in with an advertising campaign).
They will have their product ready before Telstra it seems...... they are also keeping an eye on the smaller DSLAM'ers as it is all a competitive market.
mistylane writes...
They will have their product ready before Telstra it seems......
yes but to how many exchanges, telsta will have its product ready soon and they will be too all exchanges that have adsl. I believe that is in excess of 1800
Optus will have a few exchanges ready but if the majority can not get it and telstra is has it then Optus will lose
The other advantage here is that optus will state its packages, giving telstra time to offer a better deal
mistylane writes...
(nothing to do with Telstra holding up migrations - naah - never!)
Rumour or fact?
What is Telstra doing to hold up migrations, exactly?
mistylane writes...
(nothing to do with Telstra holding up migrations - naah - never!)
More slander
mistylane writes...
senseless atatcks and no discussion on the issues....
And you know all about that!
justhere writes...
Not using adsl 1 but can with ADSL2/2+ this does not have the same issues
according to frinky it does have the same issues. have a read back of earlier posts
Yeah, cross talk. I mean, if they can shove the internet down, a powerline, yet we can't even get more then 1.5mbit on a phone line, which doesn't have a shitload of electricity running down it. I mean, where are we going as a human race?
I bet your one of those people who spent 5 years telling all your mates how living under powerlines causes tumours and stuff, only to then make a full 180 degree turn and buy one of those pillows with the magnets in it. Oh the irony. The funny thing is, the only people who say the powerline thing isn't true, are the dumbass's who bought a house under a powerline and don't want their friends to know how silly they were.
You know what, I have a better solution then this FTTN. How about all the people who want broadband, move within 2k's of the exchange, and all of those people with a barrier to technology, pick up your stuff and move into the abandoned houses. I mean really. The first thing I think about when moving is "what is the exact location of the exchange with all the iislams in it".
But you know what, this is besides the point. Telstra are stuffed. In many years they will be up against the wall, and I guess we can look forward to them changing their name again. You know what the thing is, for so long in Australian history, no one's been able to make inroads into Australia because the government made Telstra a monopoly. Us taxpayers created Telstra, and now they wanna put up the price?
Anyways, it really should be called FTTA, because that's where it's going to be going.
Crosstalk is a well-understood factor, and borderline irrelevant for adsl2+ (see examples from numerous countries, particularly France and Spain, where they have millions of such lines running). It's already factored into ISP speed/distance models.
As for crosstalk stopping >1.5mbit on adsl1, that's just ridiculous. Every other developed country in the world runs dsl faster than that, including the poorer European ones like Poland. In several countries they don't even bother offering <8mbit connections, with all dsl lines running uncapped (eg Sweden). If crosstalk was such a killer, none of this would be remotely possible.
Edit: forgot the best example is Free's experiments in France. They managed 120mbit at 1.8km loop length, and 70mbit at 2.7km, simply by bundling adsl2+ lines. EVen at these insane speeds, using standard adsl2+, crosstalk wasn't a hindrance at all - and that's with crosstalk potential all the way to the home, not just in cable bundles.
Donnie Darko writes...
the cable network has done nothing but run at a loss since it was dragged down the street. How can you call that competitive?
Frinky. writes...
i guess you have no idea...
Yes ok you quote DD and then say he has no idea. Would there be the slightest chance you could explain how and why he is wrong. Its a widely reported fact that this financial year Foxtel will break even and Telstra, News and PBL have all written off the value of Foxtel years ago. It would seem he has some idea.
Mark
mistylane writes...
Treat the telco industry badly and they will turn against Telstra - as will consumers once they are badly affected by "Telstra's version of the world".
Well that depends if they have got an alternative to turn to.
Arrogance catches up with everyone sooner or later........
lol keep running fast Misty.
Mark Tartano writes...
Yes ok you quote DD and then say he has no idea. Would there be the slightest chance you could explain how and why he is wrong.
No, there isn't. You will get more "no idea", "you are wrong", "very silly" etc etc with no actual reasons why DD is incorrect.
Tolmartyr writes...
Well that depends if they have got an alternative to turn to.
With VOIP and wireless networks, there may be a time in the not so distant future where a household can completely cut all ties to Telstra.
The assumption that a company on the cusp of becoming majority privately owned will always enjoy the natural monopoly it had as a public company is arrogant.
lol keep running fast Misty.
Hrm... Misty = Arrogant because ?....
I thought supporting a Telstra-centric view, which restricts competition, would be a tad more "arrogant" than trying to encourage and protect competition.
Telstra probably has earnt the "arrogant" tag more than any other company in Australia (lucky the ACCC pulls arrogant company heads in).
What amazes me in discussions of VoIP and wireless in Whirlpool over many many months in all sorts of threads is the tacit implication that wireless and VoIP are out of bounds for Telstra.
Consumers may be able to in the future be able to 'cut all ties with Telstra' PSTN, but I bet Telstra is not going to curl up and die watching consumers flock to VoIP and/or wireless without offering the exact same alternative.
Edit:removed post reference.
Tolmartyr writes...
without offering the exact same alternative.
You know it makes sense...
Tolmartyr writes...
I bet Telstra is not going to curl up and die watching consumers flock to VoIP and/or wireless without offering the exact same alternative.
I am sure they will try to compete in this area - and in effect cannibalise their PSTN revenue - but how competitive will their prices be??
I hope in the area of VoIP - where the only contention maybe VoIP-PSTN bridge costs (I have heard these are 5 cents to any fixed line untimed) - competition will be truly open.
I think the real hot area will be mobile communications and using data instead of time to charge calls - WiMax is also a cheap/less coverage alternative to 3G.
I envisage soon all fixed line calls will be effectively free, mobile call costs drop drastically and you'll just end up paying for "number rental" and data access charges.
lol
2100 posts in the religious war against telstra, eh mistylane, you hilarious charlatan.
He he he he - 2300+...... gotta keep the fanboi's honest!
Has anyone actually thought that by making Telstra Wholsale...Or making them wholesale FTTN will/does actually reduce competition...
Reduce it in athe fact that we still have the same old situation...Telstra owning 90% of the infrastructure and small ankle biting isp's all wanting to use Telstra infrastructure but in effect doing nothing to improve telecommunications in the country...
Imagine if Telstra get their way and FTTN is implemented...They only wholesale speeds up to 1.5Mbit and charge a small fortune for 12Mbit...
First thing that is going to happen is wireless will explode with users...People will want faster and cheaper and they get a real alternative...A second or third or fourth infrastructure provider...
Telstra finds out it's prices are too high and drops them accordingly...
Then and only then will we have real competition with DSL, cable and wireless all wanting more users to use their system...
Wireless down't seem to be cheaper than ADSL, Wireless also doesn't have the
bandwidth to offer 12/8/24mbit to everyone.
Cable will be kept on par with ADSL2.
Futurama writes...
Cable will be kept on par with ADSL2.
It depends on the number of subscibers on a certain coax run.
Futurama writes...
Wireless down't seem to be cheaper than ADSL
It is in places..
Wireless also doesn't have the
bandwidth to offer 12/8/24mbit to everyone.
to be realistic either does DSL...It all depends on the amount of backhaul...Hell most contention ratios for consumer grade DSL would be 20-1 minimum...
And also to be realistic the far majority of consumers are on 256k plans...Do you think they want/need 12Mbit's...
My point exactly.
But FTTN will allow the poeple that want 12mbit to get it.
Tolmartyr writes...
What amazes me in discussions of VoIP and wireless in Whirlpool over many many months in all sorts of threads is the tacit implication that wireless and VoIP are out of bounds for Telstra.
The reason for that Tol is that you read exactly what you want to read, not what is there.
With VOIP and wireless networks, there may be a time in the not so distant future where a household can completely cut all ties to Telstra.
My statement never implies that Telstra would not offer a product. It clearly implies that the power of choice to not pay another cent directly to Telstra would be given to the consumer. They could then pick a product without being forced to buy a physical phone line to obtain it.
Perhaps if you took off the pro Telstra blinkers for a few seconds, you could see that I'm not anti Telstra, I'm pro consumer. I care more about the end user than the company.
Besides, we use EVDO wireless broadband at work via Telstra and we are starting on GWIP shortly, so I am familiar with some of Telstra's offerings in these "out of bounds" areas.
Consumers may be able to in the future be able to 'cut all ties with Telstra' PSTN, but I bet Telstra is not going to curl up and die watching consumers flock to VoIP and/or wireless without offering the exact same alternative.
Why would they? And why would I want to them? I don't like Telstra being anti-competitive, it would be highly hypocritical of me to say they can't be competitive. Competition is GOOD for the end user. I encourage that.
Again, as usual, you read in to a post what you want to see, not what is there.
I will remove the reference to your post, I was only using it as a intro to making a general statement about VoIP and wireless being the Telstra killer that's all.
I wasn't specifically targeting what you said.
nuggets writes...
i thought this topic was settled.
it is, cross talk farks data transmissions over copper...simple..
o prepare for faster than 1.5M using the same copper lines that you say they can't use beyond 1.5M
according to frinky it does have the same issues. have a read back of earlier posts
don't you read?....it seems you are just scaning my posts...
ADSL2 is different...totally..
but if you will note the speed drop after 2kms to line noise(crosstalk) getting a higher value....
adsl2 can reduce its downstream rate to stabilise he connection(in theory)
looks like telstra will be stuck on 1.5M for eternity
you have no idea again, you think telstra is stupid?...
they are playing a game....and want to win as much as possible....just like every other ISP...
Donnie Darko writes...
I mean, if they can shove the internet down, a powering
it works like the cable network
yet we can't even get more then 1.5mbit on a phone line
we can, but have to use adsl2..but is limited to 2kms for that kick in the pants speed...
which doesn't have a shitload of electricity running down it
that doesn't make a difference, data runs at the higher freq which dosent make a diff...
You know what, I have a better solution then this FTTN. How about all the people who want broadband, move within 2k's of the exchange
yeah you can live in your 50 year old house around a exchange mate...
your caesural wage will help pay the rent..
for so long in Australian history, no one's been able to make inroads into Australia because the government made Telstra a monopoly
do you belive anyone would be getting the service they do get in the bush(for the price) if this wasn't the case
mistylane writes...
It depends on the number of subscribers on a certain coax run.
depends on how many channels are opened up for broadband....
i think that is what they did to telstra 20gig plans....
Ringer writes...
And also to be realistic the far majority of consumers are on 256k plans...Do you think they want/need 12Mbit's...
if they want VOD, in mystys POV it will take off over Foxtel...
and foxtel has 1 million customers....
Freycinet writes...
IMO it is unlikely that Telstra will ever want to compete on price alone
It is more likely they will try to bundle to create the perception of value - whether or not it is of value is up to the consumer to decide
Exactly
The buyer will decide what they want and purchase accordinly
Its not all about price wars and neither should it be
stoneyyy writes...
Now you don't really watch that garbage do you
Well I read comments such as this.........
Frinky. writes...
i wounder how IINET GOES...
lol
poor ass service...
telstra is A grade compared to them...
Seems like a few here are clutching at straws??? Or are they after "TV ratings"??
mistylane writes...
Well I read comments such as this.........
so you do watch aca and today tonight then
stoneyyy writes...
so you do watch aca and today tonight then
i havent in 2-3 years...had enough reports from the garbage can
stoneyyy writes...
so you do watch aca and today tonight then
If I was a fanboi and didn't like Telstra being ground into the ground once again, I guess I would avoid that show too?
I wonder if you've tried to find out where the reporters live.......... hmmmmmmm...... if you can't provide a rebuttal, get rid of the person psoting eh?
mistylane writes...
I guess I would avoid that show too?
i don't like ambulance chasers....
I wonder if you've tried to find out where the reporters live..........
why?
mistylane writes...
If I was a fanboi and didn't like Telstra being ground into the ground once again, I guess I would avoid that show too?
So you need to be a telstra fanbios to have the intelligence not to be able to stomach sheer bottom of the barrel journalism
Frinky. writes...
i don't like ambulance chasers....
It's called the media - Telstra gives the media so much cannon fodder it's not funny!
Thier arrogance tag is very well earned..... and recent developments are just showing this again.
i watch abc or sbs news...
www.abc.net.au/mediawatch
^^this show keeps showing how little research ACA & today tonight dose
you have been mentioned there think
Frinky. writes...
telstra have only marketed one product below every ones retail price
but never below wholesale....
They were above wholesale but below a level where any ISP could make any money on such a plan (Telstra must account for wholesale prices + operating margin). Basically it was loss leading to ISPs who had to lose money to compete but to bigpond it was profitable. That is anticompetitive.
volume discounts, remeber them?
how can you get a discount when they didn't pay anything to begin with?
I watch media watch too - the Courier Mail seems to get a good serving of it's own medicine, and I have not seen them pull apart a Telstra investigation yet?
mistylane writes...
I have not seen them pull apart a Telstra investigation yet?
Look back at the cash for comments issue with john laws
mistylane writes...
the Courier Mail seems to get a good serving of it's own medicine, and I have not seen them pull apart a Telstra investigation yet?
mate i read that paper, it has telstra in itt all the time..
stoneyyy writes...
Look back at the cash for comments issue with john laws
Well he deserved what he got......... "if you get a better offer, switch to it" :D
Sydney talk back radio has less credibility than an ACA report on "fat lebbo kids on the dole doing drugs and getting pregnant" ala Chaser style.
mistylane writes...
Sydney talk back radio has less credibility than an ACA report
them & today tonight are ambulance chasers
mistylane writes...
Sydney talk back radio has less credibility than an ACA report on "fat lebbo kids on the dole doing drugs and getting pregnant" ala Chaser style.
your in melbourne so its unfair to comment on sydeny radio
I have found your source of news jason www.weeklyworldnews.com
Ok Fred........ I never travel to Sydney do I......
As any media comment or and they will clearly state Sydney talk-back radio is of much lower quality than Melbourne........ Sydney tends to push it's own agenda (funny that) whilst Melbourne is more community oriented.
It's kinda like fanboi's vs. Misty??
mistylane writes...
Sydney tends to push it's own agenda
well who elses should it push?
whilst Melbourne is more community oriented
Melbourne does not have the same amount of talk back as sydney, so the competition for talk back listeners is not there.
It's kinda like fanboi's vs. Misty??
Oh the tickets are really on you
stoneyyy writes...
well who elses should it push?
Personal agenda's - Melbourne talkback has a long history of "serving the community" - especially Niel Mitchell.
Oh the tickets are really on you
They sure are - I get heaps of messages supporting my cause against the pro-Telstra posters...... I don't get paid to do it either - it's a hobby of mine.
mistylane writes...
I get heaps of messages supporting my cause against the pro-Telstra posters......
and i get heaps of messages on how silly your comments are
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