It covers the NBN mobile backhaul and tower sharing experiments too.
It's all in the article, and I agree a long time coming.
The MVNO market has failed to materialise in this country, perhaps it's now time to look at more regulated roaming in regards to the mobile networks to give (all three of them) a nudge along!!
I've often wondered about the NZ approach to the wireless rollout, as compared to ours.
I've always been of the opinion that the blackspot program, road coverage, NBN wireless rollout and emergency services rationalisation should be revisited a lot sooner than later.
I think im going to write some emails to google and such, its all we can do at this point. Don't look to the NBN for fibre guys, lets try and get others attention neede
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber and going Wireless.
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper, Google is going the same way.
Google will not roll out Fiber in Australia since they are pulling back in USA and the MTM is here to stay.
Google parent company Alphabet is shaking things up at its gigabit internet division, according to a report today from The Information. The unit, previously known as Google Fiber and now called Access, is shifting its focus to wireless technology, and not ultra-fast internet delivered through fiber-optic cables. More pressing, however, is a demand issued by Alphabet CEO Larry Page to reduce customer acquisition costs to one tenth their current level while asking Fiber chief Craig Barratt to cut the unit�s workforce in half, from 1,000 people to 500.
http://www.theverge.com/2016
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber and going Wireless.
And that is why i included and such regardless, means other companies too
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber
Again very selective quoting there Raoul.
Alphabet CFO Ruth Porat has been a staunch defender of the Fiber team, telling Page that its business model is viable and needs more time. However, both Page and Brin have expressed discontent with both Fiber�s overly aggressive rollout strategy and the high cost of deploying fiber optic networks. That's supposedly led to the shift toward wireless delivery.
Earlier this month, The Wall Street Journal reported that Google Fiber would start relying on wireless transmitters to start delivering internet from fiber lines to homes in cities like Los Angeles, Chicago, and Dallas
Still, it's unclear whether the unit can achieve the same gigabit internet speeds with wireless tech that it produces with fiber.
So, even the CFO of the company thinks that the FTTP rollout is viable to continue, but the CEO wants a fast return for shareholders. ie, not thinkiing about long term prospects, just the next shareholder meeting. A bit like the politicians, not caring about what is best for Australia, but what will gain traction at the next election.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google will not roll out Fiber in Australia
I agree with you.
and the MTM is here to stay.
Until the public realise they have been dudded .
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper,
Show me proof.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper, Google is going the same way.
Total and utter fantasy there. Any change from FTTP (apart from a few select rural locations) has been to #nodelotto
PS how do you explain their "failure" to use nodes? Since they are all for copying glorious leader Malcolm's MTM?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper, Google is going the same way.
What the coalition did was to move fttp to fttn.
It's not cheaper and never will be.
MTM has been shown to be the 100+ billion white elephant.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
... the MTM is here to stay.
Where's the money to build it going to come from?
but the CEO wants a fast return for shareholders. ie, not thinkiing about long term prospects, just the next shareholder meeting. A bit like the politicians, not caring about what is best for Australia, but what will gain traction at the next election.
That's kind of what the MTM supporters are saying � the difference is that they are saying this is a good thing .... that they should make money now ...
Don't forget that things must be done in the half-arsed, delayed, Australian way.
How long after America and Europe was it before television was allowed in Australia?
How long was it after the rest of the world before FM radio was allowed?
How long was if after America and Europe before we were allowed to have colour TV?
The answer is many years, in all cases. Any tech that the gov has a hand in is left to lag behind the rest of the world. Our politicians and bureaucrats don't want to lead the world in anything, ever, [unless it's environmental and can take the moral high ground].
The idea that Australia could keep pace, or even worse, lead in a fibre to the home roll out would be to upset years of bureaucratic and political practice and lead to the end of civilisation as we know it. ("We have always done things this way and will not change it now.")
It is not permissible that people should be treated as masters of their own fates; the 'authorities' must keep up the practice that every benefit must be delayed and eventually hesitantly doled out as a favour to the plebs; but not too fast and not too generously; we don't want people to get carried away with excess.
The idea that Australia should bypass the HFC-FTTN-wireless intermediate stage of communications and go straight on to ftth simply could not be allowed to happen. There must be a mandatory delay of about twenty years before they will look at fibre to the home.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Google is going the way of the Coalition MTM and is pulling back on Fiber and going Wireless.
This is also partly because the incumbent monopolies are stalling and denying/delaying access to utility poles.
http://arstechnica.com
http://ar
Don't forget that things must be done in the half-arsed, delayed, Australian way.
Hmm, some countries don't have internet at all, nor do they have free speech or personal freedom or any kind of access to uncensored information under their dictatorship. Surely Australia is not so bad. :)
"She'll be right mate" :)
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the what the Coalition done by making wholesale changes to the maps by switching areas from FTTP to Wireless since it's a lot cheaper
Err no.
In NBN MK1 there was the FTTP, and the huge big satellite to do the rest of the job.
The wireless network was always about filling the "gap".
I predicted that the fixed wireless network was always underestimated.
NBN MK2 have increased it by 25%, I still expect that figure to increase.
It's got nothing to do with FTTP v's MTM, just economics, practicalities and technology advancements in general.
Hmm, some countries don't have internet at all, nor do they have free speech or personal freedom or any kind of access to uncensored information under their dictatorship. Surely Australia is not so bad. :)
"She'll be right mate" :)
I really decry this attitude, like somehow being better than just one other country releases us from the ambition to be better. No country has every become truly great by sitting on it's laurels and proclaiming how great they are, progress moves ever forward.
No we're not the worst, but we're also not the best, and we can always, always be better.
The idea that Australia could keep pace, or even worse, lead in a fibre to the home roll out would be to upset years of bureaucratic and political practice and lead to the end of civilisation as we know it. ("We have always done things this way and will not change it now.")
Turnbull likes to portray himself as I am mr. free market liberal transform government bureaucracy guy.
Yet he ironically destroyed the least bureaucratic exercise our government has probably ever done since federation.
As I've said elsewhere these days I look to the Scandinavians and how they design their societies for inspiration about how to transform bureaucracy, embrace the free market, entrepreneurship and innovation.
They have a lot to teach us in Australia.
Both Labor and Liberal.
a bit off topic but I loved it how the government blamed labor today when they ran out of legislation to talk about.
They could have spent that time constructively talking about the plebiscite that no one wants, or the state of the nbn and how they expect to upgrade the network that they claim to have contracts in for every last bit.
a bit off topic
We love off topic talk in this thread, it's the venting/have a go ya mug thread!!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
the MTM is here to stay.
So very glad I got my FTTP connection thatnks to Labors foresight then. Its here to stay thank goodness! The way that NBN Co is desperately winding back their offerings and going for the cheap arse solutions at every chance means that poor grade broadband is here to stay for most people as well. That is those who get something. NBN Co only have 9 more months to come up with more cash and then its firesale time! Their business case doesnt stack up. The predictions are the MTM is going to be effectively worthless in 2020 and wot be able to turn a profit if it is still in existence.
How much of your cash are you willing to invest in it Raoul?
How much of your cash are you willing to invest in it Raoul?
About $250 a month, but I suspect I'm of the minority!!
EDIT: I'm not Raoul BTW.
Looks like the Libs are succeeding in put even more secrecy around the MTM.
Leader of the House Christopher Pyne will today move that a committee made up of both senators and House of Representatives MPs be established to report to each house on the NBN's progress annually until it is built and fully operational.
http://www.itne
So now the public get to hear once a year about what is happening inside NBN Co? Wow! Thanks. Better than nothing at all right? No doubt Keisler and Co will be spruiking how lucky we are for that privilege.
It just goes from bad to worse. $29.5 billion of taxpayer funds will be gone by the time the first report is delivered, and for the last 3 � years, we know less and less about where it actually went.
Turnbulls folly was supposed to be a two thirds cheaper. Where has all the money gone?
So now the public get to hear once a year about what is happening inside NBN Co?
IMO, most Aussies will changeover, with a bit of help from their ISP of choice, check their bill, and move on?
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs a holiday.
Leave the details to the likes of Quigley and Morrow.
Leader of the House Christopher Pyne will today move that a committee made up of both senators and House of Representatives MPs be established to report to each house on the NBN's progress annually until it is built and fully operational.
How will this get through the Senate?
I hope it needs their vote or we are all stuffed!
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs a holiday.
So you think it is worth 56 ( 54) billion?
So you think it is worth 56 ( 54) billion?
I'm surprised the bill is this low?
The latest figures (now we have a million connections in place) are starting to show the cost's of this decade long process.
EDIT: I lost interest when they duplicated the fibre between Perth and Geraldton. can't recall the year.
the TRUE cost's are beginning to be realised.
EDIT2: Yes, I do think it's worth it.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
MTM is here to stay.
Not a valid indication of its adequacy.
Hmm, some countries don't have internet at all
Not a valid reason not to upgrade to FTTH in Australia.
How will this get through the Senate?
I hope it needs their vote or we are all stuffed!
Well apparently...
http://www.comp
so yeah.
EDIT2: Yes, I do think it's worth it.
And many of us don't. They had a price a timeframe and they couldn't even achieve it. I'd rather have waited a couple of years longer and at least got internet that could be scaled up when needed, not this up to bullshit.
Yes, I do think it's worth it.
Wait, let me get this right.
You think the cost is worth it for building a second rate network using basically obsolete hardware?
Not a valid indication of its adequacy.
Allow me to book you into a corporate seat one day!! Just for the grand final of course.
A weekend of wonder and glory.
And many of us don't.
I get that.
I'd rather have waited a couple of years longer and at least got internet that could be scaled up when needed, not this up to bullshit
My personal opinion is that the NBN should never have been started. I've made that known here and elsewhere.
Give a project manager a goal, what you think is irrelevant.
If's he's good, he'll get the job done, regardless.
You think the cost is worth it for building a second rate network using basically obsolete hardware?
I'm from a radio background, I respect copper AND fibre having a good go at it!!
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses.
The MTM has little chance of achieving that in its present form, as many analysts are saying.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs a holiday.
Anyone who isn't concerned about how billions of taxpayers are spent with little formal oversight should take a holiday, and stay away.
Leave the details to the likes of Quigley and Morrow.
No issue if Quigley was still in charge. Morrow is another kettle of fish. Quigley was trustworthy, Morrow is the opposite.
I hope it needs their vote or we are all stuffed!
Its already been passed apparently.
If's he's good, he'll get the job done, regardless.
Agree with this comment. (As an ex large program manager).
....
However, if you really don't agree with the goal, than bail out early.
I still think this is a waste of the country's resources and also a huge limitation going forward.
No issue if Quigley was still in charge.
I'm not going to look for my Whirlpool post, but I've suggested this.
A few years to reflect from a remarkable guy would be a good move forward.
the TRUE cost's are beginning to be realised.
The TRUE cost of the MTM is a looooooong way from being realised. It will leave an expensive legacy that will take decades to fix. There are many many more billions required to fix this mess.
The MTM has little chance of achieving that in its present form
It really doesn't matter ATM. The residential market demands least cost products.
NBN MK1 got this wrong.
The vast majority of corporate accounts won't use NBN infrastructure for many years yet. Thats the way things are.
Post NBN completion, they might see the $, both NBN and business.
If's he's good, he'll get the job done, regardless.
Except in both cases, they clearly didnt meant project requirements. Changing your requirement and pushing it to a later date and claiming they are on track is the exact opposite of a good project manager.
It will leave an expensive legacy that will take decades to fix.
Hahahah.
Never heard of the leapfrog effect?
Changing your requirement and pushing it to a later date
Hmm. Maybe.
NBN project managers have their job to do.
I suspect picked out on a 6-12 month time period. Not so much different to the real world.
Even if we still had the NBN MK1, would the project managers be a part of the wallpaper, I suspect not.
Even Quigley wouldn't have been that nice.
Geographically large area to cover with low density population centres.
I really wish that example would not be used.
https://aifs.gov.au/publicat
Scroll to the population density map. I doubt much has changed
I really wish that example would not be used.
I agree, if its possible to send someone to the moon, its possible to build a national broadband network in this country.
Sick of the defeatist attitude on why we can't have a proper none of this FTTN bollocks national broadband network.
A likely Telstra shareholder representing Sydney? has decreed that
1. MTM is a white elephant
2. That the MTM is a financial disaster for the Australian taxpayer
3. That the elephant should be donated to the Telstra Zoo
4. That Telstra should be allowed to run the MTM technologies as monopolies
http://fyre.it/jUYeBk.4
Sydney 1 DAY AGO
Just gift the whole white elephant to Telstra and let them run it as a monopoly. That is the only way to get this financial disaster off the back of the poor Australian taxpayer.
4. That Telstra should be allowed to run the MTM technologies as monopolies
Feel like ground hog day element.
IMO, most Aussies will changeover, with a bit of help from their ISP of choice, check their bill, and move on?
yep, but the reason is because they have no choice. Doesn't mean they are happy about it or think it was worth it. It just means they have no other options. I know of several that have just droped their fixed line services and plumped for mobile because the price / contract lengths and stability are not worth it.
NBN is about delivering cheap residential internet for the masses
it wasn't about that, it was about delivering ubiquitous internet to the entire nation, business AND residential not just 'the masses' and quite apart from that fact, the current nbn ISNT cheap, its MORE expensive than the mark 1 plan and delivering much poorer service and performance.
Anyone who doesn't understand that needs more than a holiday
I'm surprised the bill is this low?
its still more than it would have been for a full 93% FTTP network , so it could have been lower, with a better result, why are you so happy with the current result ? it wasn't sooner or cheaper, it was less effective ?
My personal opinion is that the NBN should never have been started
But, you think the current incarnation is "worth it"
Give a project manager a goal, what you think is irrelevant
yes, the goal was "ubiquitous scalable network" and Quigley was delivering that.
then they changed the goal to "25/5 for all asap" .. and apparently that's what we are getting .....
It really doesn't matter ATM. The residential market demands least cost products
and its not what they are getting
NBN MK1 got this wrong
When you compare it to NBN MK2 it in fact didn't get this wrong, it did a better job of it, for less, in the same time frame.
The vast majority of corporate accounts won't use NBN infrastructure for many years yet. Thats the way things are
that's because the NBN infrastructure wont be the best option anymore, had they all had FTTP there would be no reason to use any other tech, its the best delivery method for data, and business plans would have demanded much higher premiums and helped revenue and performance .... As it is there are better options than an nbn connection for a business that wants fast reliable internet.
Never heard of the leapfrog effect
yes, that was what NBN MK1 was doing .. leapfrogging outdated tech straight to a modern tech.
refuse to believe brownfields fibre is $4k+.
its not, not even by the current nbns reckoning
eople in this thread still believe in project fox and refuse to believe brownfields fibre is $4k+.
That's actually slightly dishonest, $4k+ is the current figure including PSAA and Lead-in lease payments, the FTTN and HFC prices not only exclude those figures, are quoted as estimated average at 2020. You are comparing 2 entirely different metrics and including payments that are hidden in opex for the other technologies
That's actually slightly dishonest, $4k+ is the current figure including PSAA and Lead-in lease payments, the FTTN and HFC prices not only exclude those figures, are quoted as estimated average at 2020. You are comparing 2 entirely different metrics and including payments that are hidden in opex for the other technologies
I believe this, but how is this confirmed?? Is there some fine print in the Corp Plan I've missed?
Interesting to see when the pilot is done the cost of trialing new FTTH deployment technology.
I believe this, but how is this confirmed
For the costs as now vs 2020 MrMac is the better source as he is the one that pointed that out, as for the Telstra payments, in some of the leaked documents where technology costs are compared there's a note that OpEx is lower due to less payments being made with the longer time to completion, it's also been stated in estimates/select committee and the fist CP where the $4400 figure first appeared that it was done by amortising all off the Telstra/Optus payments into the CPP for FTTP
http://www.channelnews.com.a
NBN Co boss Bill Morrow has said the benefits of the NBN far outweigh the $49 billion price tag.
�By 2020, we�ll be the first country of our size to make broadband access universal,� Morrow said.
Is that a goal, a stretch target, or an even more Heroic prediction or assumption?
Of our size?
Population, or geographic size?
What does he mean by universal broadband?
What is the definition of universal broadband (if there is even an agreed one?)
That's a bit like Samsung claiming that in 4 years time they will have the best phone on the market.
It might be a goal, or a vision, but nothing can be promised or foreseen. And one that there is a high likelihood that won't be achieved.
I'd like to see what happens if anyone suggested including that in the prospectus or marketing material accompanying the sale or privatisation of NBN/MTM or some of its Assets.
Morrow must just be referring to his Wholesale company (NBNCo) making peak speed up to 25Mbps MTM products of one kind or another available to 100% of Australians, if they can afford it, via RSP's retailing it.
Note: UP TO speeds, and only peak speeds, not minimum speeds and no guarantee or conditions on the retailers who actually sell and deliver the final product will deliver a service that delivers even 25Mbps download speeds as a minimum, with the latency, consistency and reliability you or your household or business requires, during critical times that you need to use your broadband.
When you can attempt to just cover all the stragglers by Satellite, (with its slow data usage limits, high latency issues, and congestion during peak periods) Morrow's clearly deluded prophetic self-award in advance for his Organisation, speaks for itself. IF the Satellite option fails or has limitations, they'll no doubt be a range of fixed wireless or mobile broadband options they can conjure up to meet their universal access claims.
For premise that are not getting the minimum speeds or the minimum speeds they need, how long before RSP's will be actively marketing the addition of mobile broadband to your network in times to top up the speeds required to give you more consistent and higher bandwidth on your network when you want it and need it?
Talk about business and FTTN before?
WHam.
Morrow is the typical snake oil salesman. He must think that everyone is an absolute mug to buy his lies.
Cannot believe these shysters are still allowed to continue.
Talk about business and FTTN before?
Another victim of fraudband.
Not surprised.
Note: UP TO speeds, and only peak speeds, not minimum speeds and no guarantee or conditions on the retailers who actually sell and deliver the final product will deliver a service that delivers even 25Mbps download speeds as a minimum, with the latency, consistency and reliability you or your household or business requires, during critical times that you need to use your broadband.
Kept on a just over ADSL2+ network for how many years?
Any news on when the optical fill in will start :)
All that copper will be replaced with new optical sometime soon?
Any policy news on real network upgrades?
Another victim of fraudband.
and What do NBN do about it?
An NBN spokesman said its on-site testing on August 31 found there was no fault with the NBN network.
Sorry we're just the wholesaler, nothing wrong here!
*wipes hands with it*
Sorry we're just the wholesaler, nothing wrong here!
*wipes hands with it*
NBNco has become the arrogant corporation.
No ethics no responsibility.
The Coalition/LNP has made NBNco an odious entity.
It really doesn't matter ATM. The residential market demands least cost products.
NBN MK1 got this wrong.
I must disagree, if it's $1600 per premise for FTTN vs an investment of $2900 per premise for FTTH, you will still earn a strong 2 or 3% p/a return (at least) on the latter! :)
2% annual return is $58 annual profit from the $2900 investment, after costs, and that seems more than doable.
As a wholesaler to make $58 profit per customer per annum, when they are charging at least $35 per customer per month to RSPs... seems MORE than doable. :) Hell they could even make 4% or 5% on their FTTH investments!?
Do MTM costs even factor in costs of repairing old copper and old HFC?
For the costs as now vs 2020 MrMac is the better source as he is the one that pointed that out, as for the Telstra payments, in some of the leaked documents where technology costs are compared there's a note that OpEx is lower due to less payments being made with the longer time to completion
All CPP should be inclusive of lease payments. Unfortunately NBNCo excluded the detail from the Corp Plan 2017, so we can't confirm if it remains the same as Corp Plan 2016 where the lease across fixed line was $700 and wireless was $800.
Edit: To be clear of CPP in Corp Plan 2017
FTTP BF $4,400
FTTP GF $2,100
FTTN $2,300
HFC $2,300
WF $4,600
From a financial accounting perspective, all lease payments are categorised in the OPEX (as they should be). So when reviewing the financial report due this month, and also the HFC leak, they are included in the OPEX fee. So in case of Optus HFC overbuild, later delivery means lower OPEX over the same time period.
Additional info for interest:
As you stated, CPP is based on weighted average over the length of the build to 2021, so I don't believe we can do a fair comparison between FTTP BF, which is finished and actuals @ $4400, to FTTN being a forecast in mass @ $2300.
FTTP GF is currently running @ $2600 actuals, but forecasted average to be $2100, suggesting an ongoing efficiency of $700+ (once you factor existing higher average). These same efficiency's are NOT included in the FTTP BF CPP, but if they were then you would also expected them to be significantly lower. I also believe it hasn't had a significant impact reduction of actuals based on excluding large MDU's from FTTP rollout with FTTB for example.
CPP also excludes common CAPEX, such as IT systems and transit network. We know that the requirement to include FTTN/HFC/FTTB has blown out the IT Systems spend by $1b+. I'm not aware of cost impact for transit network to FTTN as I have looked in detail at it vs FTTP. Also excludes any net losses, so where FTTN take up is slower than FTTP and OPEX costs are higher, this is not included either. CPP also excludes initial trial arrangements, but we don't know the exact scope. The formal trials were of smaller scope under FTTP than the "trials" of FTTN, for which we also don't know the exact cost.
CPP also excludes any costs incurred post deployment, eg. capacity. (edited for emphasis). It certainly excludes any costs for upgrades such as G.Fast, additional transit capacity, additional nodes in the future etc.
To top it all off, without the clear breakdown we can not be certain on what costs are included under which categorisation. We can assume that all activation costs should be capitalized and included in the CPP, but we also know that the activation process and way of billing would be very different between FTTP and FTTN.
TL;DR Take CPP and comparison of them with a large dose of cynicism. It's political rather than good financials.
NBNco has become the arrogant corporation.
No ethics no responsibility.
and no plan, just like their "masters".
They both claim to have a plan, but cannot describe it in detail and all those "plans" seem to involve is cutting costs NOW and disregarding the extra spending that will need to be done in the future as a result of the cost cuts
The Coalition/LNP has made NBNco an odious entity.
just like themselves, parent/child
All CPP should be inclusive of lease payments.
I am curious about not just the lease payments, but have nbn� also placed the costs for, the backhaul links, the FANs, the POIs etc, in other words all the initial build to establish "The NBN" onto the FTTH part and not factored any of that onto the FTTN/HFC parts of the build.
I wonder if there is any way to actually know
The residential market demands least cost products.
...measured over the lifetime of the products?
Do MTM costs even factor in costs of repairing old copper and old HFC?
The old Strategic Review 2013 did hint at the Operating Expenditure in the bn's for the different HFC, copper network scenarios on page 17.
Any really new expected 2020 numbers in public after the copper fill in policy?
I wonder if there is any way to actually know
NBN state that cost of transit networks is excluded from CPP, so that should include up to the FAN's. But they also state the below
While the initial footprint is largely complete, the shift to the multi-technology mix presents new footprint, capability and capacity requirements and therefore the transit program continues to adapt its plan to support each technology.
So again, we don't know the exact cost increase that FTTN/HFC has generated in this area
Do MTM costs even factor in costs of repairing old copper and old HFC?
They are not included in CPP, but should be included in future OPEX and Common CAPEX
Edit: Actually will slightly recant that. Costs incurred during deployment (such as HFC repairs/replacements) should be included in CPP. Cost incurred post deployment, eg. ongoing repairs & maintenance, would not be included in CPP.
But again, we don't know if NBNCo are including costs such as replacement of copper/removal of bridge taps in activation's. I assume once your service is activated, then any ongoing costs including rectification of said activation, would not be included in CPP
But again, we don't know if NBNCo are including costs such as replacement of copper/removal of bridge taps in activation's. I assume once your service is activated, then any ongoing costs including rectification of said activation, would not be included in CPP
So HFC design and fill in costs or copper nodes in the same area for new builds, later sub divisions?
The obvious self-interest aside, Netflix's talk of abolishing monthly caps seems laughable in Australia considering that we've been plagued by measly download limits from the very beginning of consumer broadband � particularly at the hands of Telstra � while most Americans have enjoyed unlimited downloads from day one
There are no speed guarantees for end users on the NBN, so it remains to be seen what some fibre to the node customers will get stuck with.
�At the absolute best, that�s not very often, it gets to 40 but it can be down around five,� Mr Chambers said. �It�s just a complete disaster.�
But NBN said it had investigated and found no faults on its infrastructure and any problems needed to be �resolved with his provider.
Mr Chambers said he had no issue with his provider iinet, which had logged 200 ��touches� trying to help increase the speeds and ensure consistency, but he believed the issue was NBN fibre-to-the-node piggy-backing off old copper networks and the local telecommunications pit.
�It�s like putting a Formula 1 engine in a 1970s Torana and expecting fantastic results,� he said.
�When I first moved I couldn�t get a connection at all. With the (lower plans) it would drop out altogether and I was forced to go to the top.
�Everyone is on ADSL and they�re scared to change �because they�ve been fighting for years to get ADSL working and you can�t get back on (if you switch to NBN).
�I�d be better off paying $50 a month for 12Mbps than $130 a month for the NBN, at least it would be consistent.�
I'm going to put another tin foil hat on today and make a prediction as bold as Morrows Australia leading the world when it comes to providing Universal Broadband Access by 2020.
At some stage, NBNCo or the LNP, will start to attribute low take of higher speed tiers and low or delayed MTM activation rates on the media, social media and online forums for this issue, for discussing, publicising and reporting the MTM speed and other performance issues, and disruption and risks during activation/migrations.
Maybe at some stage the LNP will actually use the failed NBN/MTM wholesale/retail model as the justification for creating geographic MTM vertically integrated monopolies and claim they have solved the blame game and found a better model.
Not much point in having a choice of retail RSP's when they are all serving the same poor quality product.
Adam Turner's warnings you can expect to pay more under the NBN than with your ADSL, will do wonders for the NBN activation rates.
These days many Australian Internet Service Providers are offering cheap 1TB and unlimited plans, but only due to the fierce competition to win over customers before the NBN reaches them. ISPs are playing a high stakes game of musical chairs, knowing that when the NBN reaches your door and the music stops you'll probably stick with your existing provider. Once you get off DSL, expect to pay more in order to stay on the same deal via the NBN.
In my opinion ALL countries already have universal broadband.
It's called geostationary satellite internet. The NBN includes a geostationary satellite internet component. So in that sense it isn't providing us anything new.
We have had universal broadband since at least the year 2000.
ISPs are playing a high stakes game of musical chairs, knowing that when the NBN reaches your door and the music stops you'll probably stick with your existing provider. Once you get off DSL, expect to pay more in order to stay on the same deal via the NBN.
Adam doesn't provide us with any evidence for his claims but we will see.
I personally think that network neutrality is a very important thing for a free and open internet.
We have had universal broadband since at least the year 2000.
There is no worldwide agreement on what universal broadband is.
Anyone claiming that they will be Numero Uno in something that is neither agreed on, or clearly defined, is taking a material reputational and professional risk.
Particularly for something as fast evolving as broadband and the digital evolution.
Shh don't mention upload.
The NBN model basing itself on the UK model of le`fail uploads.
In my opinion ALL countries already have universal broadband.
In some countries it is illegal to use satellite dishes.
How would you be sure that In all countries where it is legal to use satellite dishes, that broadband internet is available (even at a high price)?
Particularly for something as fast evolving as broadband and the digital evolution.
Particularly when you are not rolling out the fastest/ best technology available and others around the world are.
At some stage, NBNCo or the LNP, will start to attribute low take of higher speed tiers ... on the media, social media and online forums for this issue, for discussing, publicising and reporting the MTM speed and other performance issues, and disruption and risks during activation/migrations.
Got it! I was looking for an attribute to instead of an attribute on. Nice Kevin Rudd style sentence, he sure is a wordsmith cramming two paragraphs of information into one sentence. ;) :)
Nice Kevin Rudd style sentence
Damn. My Ghost writer has been outed! :)
Node* :)
Sssh, don't tell anyone that. It is the next generation faster, cheaper, better national telecommunications network that is future proof and offers exceptional performance, remember. :)
Damn. My Ghost writer has been outed! :)
:D :)
and What do NBN do about it?
An NBN spokesman said its on-site testing on August 31 found there was no fault with the NBN network.
Sorry we're just the wholesaler, nothing wrong here!
*wipes hands with it*
At least when you were on ADSL (which many, many people still are) you could initially establish through your provider that he fault did not lie on your side of the connection to your house and your provider could log a fault with Telstra to look into the problem.
As you say Rocky with this mess that is MTM nbn�, as the wholesaler, have full authorisation to effectively do nothing. DISGRACEFUL Malcolm, just disgraceful!
In some countries it is illegal to use satellite dishes.
They could just MacGyver a coat hanger though couldn't they?
NBN state that cost of transit networks is excluded from CPP, so that should include up to the FAN's. But they also state the below
While the initial footprint is largely complete, the shift to the multi-technology mix presents new footprint, capability and capacity requirements and therefore the transit program continues to adapt its plan to support each technology.
I take it this means the HFC CMTS sites are not always co-located with the originally planned FAN sites?
I take it this means the HFC CMTS sites are not always co-located with the originally planned FAN sites?
problem is who will know outside nbn�?
they have a record of saying one thing in an answer and then months later announce the very thing they denied.
Be this FTTN or HFC overbuild or anything else.
I am afraid I also have doubts about their claims of no "FAN back" costs being incorporated into FTTP per premises costs.
With the transparent nature of their books no real scrutiny can be done. We rely on "final presented numbers" and even then it seems that anomalies are picked up which makes me doubt the rest of their data and claims
It seems that combining old and new tech is something the LNP have fallen in love with...
http://abc.net.au/news/2016-
The money shot is...
"So the plan is for us to buy a nuclear submarine design and then convert it to a piston submarine," he said.
"Now no-one has ever done that in the world and in fact when I talk to submarine experts they say it is so ridiculous, so we're being conned."
It seems that going against technical advice is what their superpower skill is!
It seems that combining old and new tech is something the LNP have fallen in love with...
http://abc.net.au/news/2016
Mr Smith said if the Government's real agenda was to use nuclear technology, it should be up front about it.
So what's the Government's real agenda with their NBN/MTM child?
South Australia Premier Jay Weatherill hit out at Mr Smith on Twitter, calling the businessman a "sad old man".
"Looked like it [the advert] was scribbled on the back of a serviette after a long lunch � #sadoldmen," Mr Weatherill tweeted.
A back of the serviette play from the NBN dissing handbook.
A group of prominent businessmen, including Dick Smith and John Singleton, have taken out a full-page ad in The Australian newspaper, suggesting the public is being conned over the submarine project.
How long before a prominent group of businessmen take out a full-page ad in The Australian, suggesting the public is being conned over the NBN/MTM Project?
Any such group won't include Malone or Hackett.
It is much better to equip them with a cheaper diesel engine, and then upgrade them to nuclear in the future when they really need the extra power and endurance. </s>
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
It is much better to equip them with a cheaper diesel engine, and then upgrade them to nuclear in the future when they really need the extra power and endurance. </s>
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
plus much less room for crew, equipment and weapons = more cost savings
plus much less room for crew, equipment and weapons = more cost savings
They could also remote pilot them over the FTTN network. Unless it rains or during peak usage times.
"So the plan is for us to buy a nuclear submarine design and then convert it to a piston submarine," he said.
At the 2013 election Libs showed how enthusiastic they are for recycling.
- Buying decades old junk copper and reusing it.
- And anyone remember their plan to buy leaky old boats off people-smugglers?
They are more in love with recycling than the Greens.
I predicted that the fixed wireless network was always underestimated.
NBN MK2 have increased it by 25%, I still expect that figure to increase.
It's got nothing to do with FTTP v's MTM, just economics, practicalities and technology advancements in general.
Absolute rubbish. It was never 'underestimated'. It was very much a calculated quantity designed to serve a particular purpose of economics of scale verses performance. Under NBNv1, that is.
Under the MTM, its purely over used to try and justify poor decisions of the current governments poor policy on UN-communications.
My personal opinion is that the NBN should never have been started. I've made that known here and elsewhere.
And with this statement you also make it known that your comments are biased to this tone.
But blind Fredy could see that. If one is that short sighted or unable to see that the NBN was, is, and has always been a required infrastructure build, then one also does not possess the sense it takes to know WHICH form the NBN is best implemented in.
And with this statement you also make it known that your comments are biased to this tone.
As always.
A likely Telstra shareholder representing Sydney? has decreed that
Not at all; that was apparently co-authored by young Anna, who along with her former associate Mitch has been trolling for News Corp giving us the benefit of her NBN/MTM inexperience for a while now.
It may be too much to expect MSM reporters to comprehend technical issues, but there should be at least some minimal level of industry understanding, and objectivity, if they are going to be portentously introduced as 'Communications Writers'.
They could also remote pilot them over the FTTN network. Unless it rains or during peak usage times.
Perhaps they can pay a levy to cross-subsidize CVC charges while remote piloting on NBN FTTN. With that $50 billion they got.
It seems that going against technical advice is what their superpower skill is!
I think they are more concerned with appeasing doners...
They would do whatever the technical advice said if it came from people who gave them lots of money.
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
Now why does that sound so familiar?
Oh, I know, it's exactly the same old line of tarradiddle that was 'created' to deny the bleedin' obvious (FTTP the only fit spec from now right up to the end of the century) while trying to assert the impossible (the MTM will be Faster!, Cheaper! and Sooner!).
So the same thinking, from the same people, who have committed RAN sailors to using obsolete diesel subs against every potential foe, who by then will be entirely equipped with nuclear powered boats.
And exactly as with the MTM, don't even think of asking about the (real) cost of such political idiocy.
Faster, cheaper subs sooner.
They offered the public a "Pup" and they tumbled into it.
News Corp and Telstra have slayed em.
At least when you were on ADSL (which many, many people still are) you could initially establish through your provider that he fault did not lie on your side of the connection to your house and your provider could log a fault with Telstra to look into the problem.
As you say Rocky with this mess that is MTM nbn�, as the wholesaler, have full authorisation to effectively do nothing. DISGRACEFUL Malcolm, just disgraceful!
It won't be long until users frustrations are taken out on the big green targets. Just watch it.
What a farce, I did dare MTMco to hurry up and roll out more nodes. It just self exposes how crap it really is. If they don't, well there goes the revenue. If they do, more anger.
Damn if you do, damn if you don't. I have the popcorn ready. Its sad really our tax payer dollars will pay for this crap. But to me the 56 billion dollars is gone, its a white elephant write off.
If Bill morrows or Malcolm thinks the younger generation will swallow his bullshit, then his really mistaken. We will remember this farce for our lifetime and the LNP will pay in each and every election in the future. Sure you got away in 2013, 2016. When the old flaps that don't understand technology and networks and die off, the young ones will remember. No LNP votes for me, state, local or federal ever again.
So the LNP/MTMco better hurry up and at least satisfy the "Sooner" requirement.
We will remember this farce for our lifetime and the LNP will pay in each and every election in the future.
Please do. Some of us, older types, have spent a lifetime helping to build all of this cool computer stuff we now enjoy and they've gone and purposefully wrecked one of our more important infrastructure projects for this century. Then they justify it all with what are effectively straight out lies. Its incredibly depressing and they're getting away with it. For the time being.
We will remember this farce for our lifetime and the LNP will pay in each and every election in the future
In Europe -Nearly all players consider that FTTH is the end game!
Vodafone Group expands gigabit fibre-to-the-home networks across Europe
Vodafone Group expands gigabit fibre-to-the-home networks across Europe
Wonder what Vodafone execs make of Morrow now?
Some of us, older types, have spent a lifetime helping to build all of this cool computer stuff we now enjoy and they've gone and purposefully wrecked one of our more important infrastructure projects for this century.
All I can say is guys...
read my post
whrl.pl/ReIdPC
See how the Scandinavians do things. How they try to bring society along with these things.
We gotta start referring to the outside world and talk about how things work elsewhere. If we want change.
Change might not happen as fast as we want but you can make change happen. Obama said.
Look at what Sanders got as concessions with Hillary and you will realize we can change things.
The Scandinavians have very entreprenuerial mindsets and technological societies. We all should start researching and learning about them.
That way we don't give up this lifetime work of guys like bassomatic to bad use.
Or even guys like Malone or Hackett. If they still browse these forums I hope they read it too.
Things need to start changing for the better.
In Europe -Nearly all players consider that FTTH is the end game!
They're all very silly wasting all that money. Turnbull & Morrow said no one needs it, copper will do just fine ;-)
And we are sitting at 40th for FTTH global ranking. We ain't going up that chart anytime soon !!! :-((
It's a combination of the following:
Creating a new company from scratch
How does that affect the FTTP rollout cost but not the FTTN one? Nope, fail.
and a GBE at that (meaning higher levels of incompetence).
And becasue it's a GBE it has to be incompetent? Nope, fail.
High labour costs.
Looks at NZ, Singapore. Nope, fail.
Prime contractor model with sub sub sub sub subcontractors
sub sub sub heh? got any proof? Or is this a case of inventing bullcrap to support a spurious argument?
Excessive amounts of red tape.
Again, somehow this magically affects the FTTP rollout but none of the other tech choices??
Geographically large area to cover
Fail. The actual rollouts happen in discrete urban areas. I'll let you in on a little secret. Australia is one of the most highly urbanised countries in the world. Pro tip there for you.
low density population centres.
Again, no different to urban rollouts in the US.
When the old flaps that don't understand technology and networks and die off, the young ones will remember. No LNP votes for me, state, local or federal ever again.
Funny how views formed now could last a lifetime.
Nearly 50 years ago, I formed the same view of the LNP over the Vietnam war and conscription of 20 year olds who did not have a vote at the time, and they still haven't ever received my vote as a result of that.
BTW, it is not just old flaps who dont understand technology and networks, and conversely there are plenty of old flaps who probably know more about technology and networks than a lot of the young flaps on these forums as well.
I would suggest it is not an age thing.
Fairfax's Matthew Knott generously awards Turnbull a 6/10 for the Communications subject on his Year 1 report card today. (See my NBN report card far below)
Hits: The rollout of the NBN has continued to speed up since Mitch Fifield took over from Malcolm Turnbull as Communications Minister. The number of premises able to connect to the NBN more than doubled from 1.2 million to 2.9 million and the number of premises with an active NBN service doubled. The government argued, with much evidence, that NBN Co is running more efficiently than it was under Labor in its early years. Mercifully, the culture wars against the ABC � which ran hot under Tony Abbott � have subsided under Turnbull. No more Q&A boycotts or complaints of leftie lynch mobs. The government gave the ABC a welcome $13.5 million in the May budget. This allowed it to keep investigative journalists employed and run its digital services.
Misses: During the election, the AFP staged dramatic raids of the office of Labor senator Stephen Conroy and the home of a Labor staffer to hunt down the leaker of documents from NBN Co. The AFP ran the operation independently of government but it reflected badly on Turnbull by suggesting he had something to hide and gave a second life to reports of problems with the rollout. It got worse when NBN Chairman Ziggy Switkowski wilfully breached the election caretaker conventions by weighing into public debate.
Verdict, challenges ahead: 6 out of 10. The NBN rollout is moving quickly but the trickiest part is about to ramp up: the controversial fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) rollout using existing copper wires. The government's critics will be quick to seize upon any examples of problems with FTTN, given it is Turnbull's pet technology.
For the NBN, I'd only give Turnbull a 1/10, given the wide range of NBN/MTM problems not mentioned in the Fairfax report card, including:
(a) blowout in costs,
(b) delays with announcing what is going to happen with the Optus HFC footprint and reaching any contractual agreement with Optus on design/build of the Optus HFC part of the HFC
(c.) negative changes to the MTM mix (less HFC/FTTP/FTtB and more FTTN/Satellite)
(d) peak hour congestion
(e) disruptions to phone and broadband service continuity
(f) view that the NBN/MTM in it's current form can no longer make a profit without
(i) a hike in wholesale prices for entry level Tiers, and/or
(ii) RSP's increasing their CVC purchases, and passing the increased cost on to their retail customers
both of which will likely only delay activation rates further, and result in even more people ditching their fixed line for mobile broadband or using other Fixed and Wireless non-NBN supplied Broadband solutions (if available at their premises).
(g) no revision to the 3 year Construction rollout made publicly available
(h) grandiose claims from Morrow on Australia becoming a world leader with the NBN by 2020
(i) NBN RSP's having no NBN Co contractual restrictions, on them marketing NBN plans based on Data usage, hiding the speed tier options, cajoling retail customers onto only the bottom 2 speed tiers, and not offering the 50Mbps download speed tiers.
(j) Optus reportedly forcing some of it's Optus HFC customers off Optus HFC on 90 days notice over a year earlier than what was meant to be an 18 month window to migrate (this may be a positive, but the lack of transparency on it is a negative)
(k) Declaring HFC RFS prematurely, with Telstra not offering NBN HFC yet in declared RFS NBN HFC areas
(l) NBNCo performance at the Senate Estimates
(m) delays in Business Grade Service offerings
(n) giving high priority to underserved areas
(o) Technology Change (deterrant) program failure/success
(p) design of FTTN
Fairfax's Matthew Knott generously awards Turnbull a 6/10 for the Communications subject on his Year 1 report card today
I actually think that's a fair call, so long as you judge Turnbull by the low standards of a politician. They've kept a lid on NBN expectations within the general public pretty well.
If you were Turnbull and knew what you'd done, getting a public 6/10 from the Fairfax media would seem like an excellent result.
They've kept a lid on NBN expectations within the general public pretty well.
That is until last week Morrow
1. Reminded the general public about the cost blowouts and the price tag, by pleading with everyone to forget about the price .
2. Was doing himself, NBNCo and the Federal Government absolutely no favours and massively over promising, and exaggerating on the NBN with the following quote.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
Mr Morrow said that, when the NBN is completed n 2020, Australia will be a world leader in broadband. "We're making so much momentum and well on track to be the first continent to have a fully connected universal broadband that has 25 megabits a second or better," he argued.
"On the speed, 40 per cent of the nation when we're done will have access to a gigabit per second, and that's better than better than any other nation will be at that year 2020."
The NBN rollout is moving quickly but the trickiest part is about to ramp up: the controversial fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) rollout using existing copper wires. The government's critics will be quick to seize upon any examples of problems with FTTN, given it is Turnbull's pet technology.
To be fair(ish) this reads about right. They've got a fairly ambitious ramp up ahead of them, which the revisions to the Statement of Expectations seem to suggest they're worried about meeting.
They've also got the pressing and monumental task of convincing someone to fund this mess for an eye watering amount of money.
If (when) it all comes crashing down it'll be on Turnbull's head.
by pleading with everyone to forget about the price .
Completely different tune before the election eh -
such as reinstating Labor�s previous fibre-to-the-premise policy � would result in significant writedowns for the $49 billion project.
Bringing fibre much closer to consumers� homes can be more expensive to deploy
�But why would you spend another $400? It would have to be if the demand for speed was greater than what FTTN could provide and people would be willing to pay for that. That�s when you can overcome that $400 cost difference,� Mr Morrow said.
It would have to be if the demand for speed was greater than what FTTN could provide
But how would they really know demand given that it is supply driven market?
I'm not going to pay for more speed when the crappy copper cable is not physically capable of providing that speed and/or the backhaul / CVC is insufficient to keep up the speed.
What do they take us for?
I'm not going to pay for more speed when the crappy copper cable is not physically capable of providing that speed and/or the backhaul / CVC is insufficient to keep up the speed.
What do they take us for?
the overriding problem is that the "crappy copper" can mask poor CVC purchasing decisions by RSPs.
Also given that most RSPs are supplying modems for FTTH/B that show very little data on the connection itself, the RSPs can blame 'crappy copper" for congestion in their own segments, be that lack of CVC or other backhaul
It is amazing to watch some of the RSPs on an almost weekly basis announce capacity upgrades to some POIs, more customers maybe, more use by individual customers maybe or a combination of both probably.
Bur others will just hide behind the old "sorry, that is all your copper can deliver" as you struggle to get a throughput of 12/0.4 on your 25/5 connection, one that you initially signed up to for the "up to 100/40" connection but have since downgraded
- Geographically large area to cover with low density population centres.
FTTP is better than FTTN -precisely- because of this point. FTTN suits high density where copper runs are short.
That's not what we have in Australia.
If (when) it all comes crashing down it'll be on Turnbull's head.
No, when it all comes crashing down (as it is designed to do) they can all shout "LOOK, WE TOLD YOU IT WAS A BAD IDEA! LABORS FAULT!"
A Federal Coalition goal under Abbott was to destroy the reputation of both Labor over the NBN.
With the good showing of Labor in the upper and lower house at the 2016 Federal Election, and the marginal result that a Turnbull led LNP got, it looks like it will be way easier to destroy Malcolm Turnbull's reputation over the NBN than destroy Labor's reputation because of it.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
The committee, or any subcommittee, has the power to call for witnesses to attend hearings and for documents to be produced; to conduct proceedings wherever it deems appropriate; and to sit either in public or in private.
It further has the power to �consider and make use of� the evidence and records of the NBN committee if appointed during a previous Parliament.
What is the point now? We all know that a bunch of nbn� execs just turn up to say "Commercial in Confidence" and "We'll take that on notice".
No justification, no reason, no business case, and in about a year... no money.
What do they take us for?
Australians.
An American who knows best for our country.
Also given that most RSPs are supplying modems for FTTH/B that show very little data on the connection itself
I'm running FTTB (perfectly fine for interim NBN on short, protected copper) and my iiNet supplied VDSL modem shows max connection available, current sync, and other stuff like noise, attenuation etc (not at home to check).
Are the other modems worse in this regard to showing basic info?
It is amazing to watch some of the RSPs on an almost weekly basis announce capacity upgrades to some POIs, more customers maybe, more use by individual customers maybe or a combination of both probably.
FYI � RSP CVC upgrade provisioning time can get to under 60 mins, based on some feedback I saw on Reddit. I specifically asked if there were limitations as to how often RSPs could change their CVC capacity at a POI, and the timeframe for that request to be actioned.
But others will just hide behind the old "sorry, that is all your copper can deliver" as you struggle to get a throughput of 12/0.4 on your 25/5 connection, one that you initially signed up to for the "up to 100/40" connection but have since downgraded
What RSPs are doing this � do we have examples to name and shame?
cheers
What RSPs are doing this � do we have examples to name and shame
Telstra business told me this when trying to sign up to 100/40 plans for a few different businesses around town, that the fttn wont support it , that we would be lucky to get 50/20 (they had only seen a handful of premises that could achieve that sync rate), that they strongly recommend going no higher than 25/5.
But when I said that I wanted it on a new service so as to not effect their current service, we have to wait until the entire town is RFS (sometime late next year) because there are not enough techs to install a new line AND activate nbn on it. lol
Sure glad this nbn is sooner and faster
FYI � RSP CVC upgrade provisioning time can get to under 60 mins, based on some feedback I saw on Reddit. I specifically asked if there were limitations as to how often RSPs could change their CVC capacity at a POI, and the timeframe for that request to be actioned.
yes it can, but a lot of the larger RSPs are taking weeks to provision any increase, guess requests have to go from "complaints" to "network" to "accounts" for a business case to enable the switch on of more CVC
Vodafone Group expands gigabit fibre-to-the-home networks across Europe
Minimum speed on offer on their fiber network in Ireland is 350 Mbps....
What is the point now?
I'm not sure whether this will replace the existing Senate Committees or whether they will run concurrently. I'm not even sure if the previous Senate Committees carry over to the new Parliament or whether they have to be reformed. I've not seen any conversation or comments regarding the previous Senate Committees. I'm sure someone on here will have the knowledge or will provide the links.
The joint committee will be interesting though. The makeup of the joint committee will be:
- 7 Government members/senators
- 7 opposition members/senators
- 1 non aligned member
- 1 Greens senator
- 1 senator to be nominated by a minority group or independent senator
So the 'balance of power' of the joint committee will be decided by those last three members of the committee.
The Turnbull Government will have no control over the appointment of the Greens senator � obviously. I think that it is safe to assume that it will be Senator Scott Ludlam, given that the link I got is current, that he is still the Greens' Communications Spokesperson. (http://greensmps.org.au/portfolios) I have the utmost respect for Senator Ludlam based on his track record, and certainly in regards to his contributions in the NBN/MTM in the previous Senate committee hearings. His attendance at the hearings certainly wasn't for 100% of the time of the hearings. That goes along with Greens members wearing many hats though.
It therefore depends on whether the Turnbull Government can tip the balance of power of the joint committee by manipulating negotiating the appointment of the 1 non aligned member and the 1 senator to be nominated by a minority group or independent senator. That seems to be a little up in the air as to how they are 'appointed' from those nominations. Obviously this is open to horse trading.
The other really interesting unknown is the appointment of the Government members/senators. It only takes one right wing member of the LNP and Abbott supporter to be sitting in the joint committee throwing some spanner in the works to destabilise Turnbull's Prime Minister-ship (as the PM is the real person responsible for this shocking mess) with the provision of some transparency of the nbn� and the MTM roll out demonstrating aspect(s) that will show to the Australian public what a disaster the nbn/MTM is.
So it will be interesting to see how the balance of power of the joint committee comes out in the wash, and if the balance leans away from the Government, what real power or strategies the joint committee can exercise to bring real transparency to the farce that is the nbn� and the MTM roll out for the Australian people.
Or will we still just be chugging glasses of water?
Popcorn anyone?
... Yet the government and their lapdogs act as if we are not of the the same planet where all these truly fast internet developments are happening. They act as if what happens "over there" has no effect on us. We know the world and its people are much more fluid than in the past, so it is no great feat for businesses and individuals to move where the quality services are located, leaving Australian once again with a brain and talent drain.
The joint committee will be interesting though. The makeup of the joint committee will be:
7 Government members/senators
7 opposition members/senators
1 non aligned member
1 Greens senator
1 senator to be nominated by a minority group or independent senator
For me, one of the more alarming issues is the quorum rules, which effectively state that a quorum requires at least one government member present. So there could be a case where all the non-gov't members show up with the moment the gov't members leave (or just don't show up) there isn't a quorum and no business can be done.
Pretty easy way to scupper any meeting, deposition or other work that would be embarassing to the Gov't, isn't it?
For me, one of the more alarming issues is the quorum rules, which effectively state that a quorum requires at least one government member present. So there could be a case where all the non-gov't members show up with the moment the gov't members leave (or just don't show up) there isn't a quorum and no business can be done.
Yeah I could just imagine. The microwave just went 'Beep' to say that my popcorn is ready, I've got a jug of water on my desk, my glass is half full, my adsl1 connection is working, the Parliamentary stream is coming through to display the Committee room on my PC monitor, Senator Conroy or Senator Ludlam has just asked that awkward question of Bill ......... and then the solitary single Government member of the Committee just ups and walks out!
Suddenly the glass on my desk is half empty! :(
Pretty easy way to scupper any meeting, deposition or other work that would be embarassing to the Gov't, isn't it?
Except opposition and other party members are still government members and im pretty sure Ludlam would still be there and he counts as one. Therefore business will proceed as usual if they followed their own bloody rules.
Pretty easy way to scupper any meeting, deposition or other work that would be embarassing to the Gov't, isn't it?
I dropped an email to Senator Rowland on this very point with a suggestion to overcome this likelihood, along the lines of a greater number required to form a quorum if no gov't member is in attendance (perhaps as large as all other members? Works in the case of a walkout, too?) .
"We're making so much momentum
'momentum' isn't much good when its gained from falling into a pit. because theres a) the bone jarring crash when you hit the bottom; and b) then there's the whole difficulty about pulling your arse out of the pit.
the only real question at this point is the exact point at which the mtm goes kersplat; my guess would be it's when the equity funds run dry? it cant be too much longer, and then things really will be difficult for Morrow/Fifield/Turnbull.... earnings of FTTP would have kept a lot more work in train than the earnings of FTTN will...
Except opposition and other party members are still government members
That's not my understanding of who constitute "government members".
That's not my understanding of who constitute "government members".
Nor mine. Opposition and other party members can be classified as parliamentary members though.
What is the point now? We all know that a bunch of nbn� execs just turn up to say "Commercial in Confidence" and "We'll take that on notice".
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
As soon as I've finished my 7 year Hacking Degree through Hackers-Anonymous-College-Degrees-R-Us I should be able to get into nbn�'s system and find out if they can reach their goal of having the network completed by 2021.
Nor mine. Opposition and other party members can be classified as parliamentary members though.
That is undermining the system to the extreme i swear... Honestly if there were no government members then they should not have even been selected and stripped of the position.
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
Yeah well not like many of them operate in Australia unless you count white hat ones.
I love Bill Morrow, saying we'll be ahead of the world in 2020, when we have our sub 100mbit to the masses, when the bulk of the world already has gigabit access.
Not sure what 'vitamin' supplements he's taking.
Not sure what 'vitamin' supplements he's taking.
I'm not sure either, but what i am sure of is which end he's taking them in. tsk tsk
FTTP is better than FTTN � precisely � because of this point. FTTN suits high density where copper runs are short.
We all know it, just as every sensible and intelligent person with a gram of industry knowledge knows it.
Which neatly encapsulates the deliberate ignorance of all the respective members of the political class, combined with the base corporate interests of an MSM baying to protect their legacy business models.
Not sure what 'vitamin' supplements he's taking.
$$$$$$
what do you want me to say?
$$$$$$$$
we lead the world
$$$$$$$$$$
what do you want me to say?
It's the classic circle jerk. The MT says BM is doing a wonderful job, BM says MT is doing a wonderful job. BM can turn around and say, "the right honourable prime minister says I'm good at what I do", MT can turn around and say "A leading Telco industry executive says my approach is the right one". Absolutely no substance to either statement, but the gullible will buy it.
I'm sure someone on here will have the knowledge or will provide the links.
Sorry just dropping in on this thread after dealing with Telstra on misleading and deceptive representations in regards to BGP routing while the TIO is not interested (as expected) and over in the NAS thread about a vendor who thinks it is okay to loose an entire volume because a hard drive develops 2 bad sectors during resync. Yes, I have been busy. {shaking head in disbelieve}
Anyway to your question. The composition of the Committee.
The 7 Government members/senators have essential no contribution of any significance. They will deliver the Dorothy Dixer questions which will make the NBN executives will change like chameleons from "c-in-c" to "I am happy that the Senator asked the question". One word, useless. No scrutiny and/or accountability whatsoever.
The balance of power (or must I write effectiveness) is not in the group of 3, it is the total group excluding the Government members/senators. The skills and knowledge of the members of these 10, will make or break this committee. If there are a few that don't know the difference between a iron and modem, you got a problem.
Personally I would never agreed with this committee proposal. I think both houses have each a very own role to play and I do not believe in joining the houses in a committee. Smells too much like a DD style approach.
But as every negative also has its positive side. I think raising the amount of members is consistent with the never ending growing problem which is called NBN. I expect still a lot of developments in the next years, most of them negative and a solid, bit larger, committee is not a bad idea. The MTM-policy will become a massive problem in this government term.
Personally I think a lot depends also on the chair. Was not charmed with the previous chairs and I sincerely hope that the next chair is more keen to guard the rights of the houses. That "c-in-c" business must stop. As Bill Morrow said, all contracts are rewarded. NBN Co does not have competitors so full transparency must be enforced.
For me, one of the more alarming issues is the quorum rules,
Agree, that is a concerning weakness and I think for this reason Labor should not accepted the governments proposal.
I'm actually surprised hackers haven't hit NBN and released flaptonnes of internal emails and documentation outlining corruption.
The question is not if this has not already occured, the hacking I mean. In hackers circles it is very much a standard practise to hold on to documents until the right moment when the hack is non financial initiated. We will see. My grandmother always said "if the crows have to tell it, it will come out".
I should be able to get into nbn�'s system and find out if they can reach their goal of having the network completed by 2021.
Social engineering a staffer is less time consuming. Believe Griffith University got some nice undergraduate courses on security. Highly recommended. If you are serious, which on second thought, I think you are not. :)
Recycling an old strategic tactic?
But the group was dismissed as �sad old men� by South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill, who rubbished their proposal to go nuclear. �[It] looked like it was scribbled on the back of a serviette after a long lunch,� Mr Weatherill tweeted on Tuesday.
The parallels with NBN are just stunning. Wasn't the NBN drawn on the back of a serviette? Who came to that rumour? Everything that is innovative is drawn on the back of a serviette. :)
Good for business relationships in SA. Calling three millionaires "sad old men".
The 7 Government members/senators have essential no contribution of any significance. They will deliver the Dorothy Dixer questions which will make the NBN executives will change like chameleons from "c-in-c" to "I am happy that the Senator asked the question". One word, useless. No scrutiny and/or accountability whatsoever.
Presumably the hearings won't be any longer than the previous ones were and with that many of them they can take turns asking useless questions taking up most of the session doing so. That will be "good" government at work.
If you are serious, which on second thought, I think you are not. :)
I wouldn't know the first thing about hacking. The closest I come to that is watching it in movies. I do note that hacking takes somewhere between about 15 � 30 seconds and they always type really, really fast. ;)
Good for business relationships in SA. Calling three millionaires "sad old men".
Yep ... the same old tactic ... play the man (or in this case men) and not the ball.
My first encounter with the 'back of a serviette' trope was on the West Wing episode, 'Inauguration: Part 2 � Over There' (2003).
President Josiah "Jed" Bartlet: "They're saying I'm rewriting the Constitution on the back of a napkin. They're saying on Fox that a guy who couldn't run a local sheriff's department wants to send troops around the world. They're saying it's liberalism with a grenade launcher. But they're not saying it was badly written, so that's something. And they sure as hell know I was serious, so that's something else. Congratulations, folks, we've got ourselves a doctrine."
It shows our politicians liked watching West Wing, I suppose. It's something to say when logic, facts and reason aren't on their side.
"Hey truck driver, if you see a competitive advantage in roads then pay for it yourself and don't expect the average taxpayer to risk their dollars for it."
They pay a premium.
"Hey cafe owner, if you see a competitive advantage in on-tap water then pay for it yourself and don't expect the average taxpayer to risk their dollars for it."
Let's not compare broadband to water anymore. There's a highly disproportionate economic benefit from basic broadband compared to high speed Gbps use. I'm sure I could find an analogy in water use but this isn't useful.
I'm part of the Engineers without Borders program and have travelled to many a places in need of better infrastructure.
I applaud you. I was merely trying to point out the folly of this idea of fast internet access as a human right in an economic context of a developed nation (and well many others) where the benefits of it are disproportionate among the recipients. Everyone here can show their hand explicitly in a way I can't as a journalist within a public discussion.
Half my time I come in here playing devils advocate and come under attack as a presumed sympathiser of one approach or another and it does me no good as I just get labelled... and I understand why that happens.
BS. I was too succinct for you, clearly. It's both about the law firm and their client/expert witness. I can assure you being the latter that your idea of paying for it yourself is a fantasy.
But I'm assured you'd agree that relevant return is higher for your law fim/expert witness than the average taxpayer whose money is at risk. If we have a situation where the FTTP model was taken to the people as "Hell we want to do this as a nation building exercise for everyone and why might take a huge bath on and let's not call it a GBE and put it on books then we could all be at peace about it. No? That's not what happened and now, sadly, we're all fighting tooth and nail behind technology types. I don't think either approach was ever going to be viable economically but I don't think that matters so much now. I've taken a huge risk putting even that on the table.
Another accidental double post. Apologies.
These are the people that need your Centrelink and other social services most. Imagine the uproar if we simple held up our hands and said "no you're not eligible for help because you don't have broadband at speed X or Y".
The places with the best broadband happen to have the most generous social welfare benefits. Scandinavia. One place Finland in fact is about to have basic income for everyone by a conservative government. They see it as an investment in jobs and growth.
People will have high wages and higher income tax revenue to support their welfare state.
And I am always upset that journalists in this country never consider Scandinavia and compare our social and economic policies too theirs. It should be front line and centre.
They are first when it comes to entrepreneurship, labour market flexibility, high wage economies and first when it comes to social welfare, first when it comes to r&d investment, they have put astronauts in space, have space programs and investment in science and technology.
We should be thinking how we make our society more like Scandinavia.
Hmm idk Obama?
"In plain English, I'm asking [the FCC] to recognize that for most Americans, the internet has become an ESSENTIAL part of everyday communication and everyday life."
At what level of bandwidth? And in a country like the US (with JSOC opertaions and other preoccupations) how much do you think he really meant it and how much was rhetoric?
The places with the best broadband happen to have the most generous social welfare benefits.
That could reflect a lot of economic factors. We could be at the backgammon board a long time.
At what level of bandwidth
The FCC in America have stated that for internet to be classified as broadband over there it must be 25/3 MINIMUM. Lucky them alot of them have access to 100+ whenever they want both up and down.
I hope that you are healthy for your whole life. Can't have the taxpayer risking anything on the PBS for your health. Pay for your medication yourself.
You can't compare health circumstances to legal circumstances that easily. People don't have the same amount of control over, say, the onset of cancer due to (possibly genetic inheritance (as they do a commercial legal dispute....*mostly*. If I step off the curb and a car runs a red light and knocks me down (yes, I know you wish for that everyday) then I have little control over that. Nor any other malady.
True broadband speed may make the difference in the movement of evidence in my case. I can't argue with that. But still, I have a choice in legal rep and that may provide an advantage.
Again, I'm playing devil's advocate here and I fear that it paints me a certain way that's not helpful and quite a point of agitation in this thread. I just try to get to the place where there is an alternate view up for debate.
The FCC in America have stated that for internet to be classified as broadband over there it must be 25/3 MINIMUM. Lucky them alot of them have access to 100+ whenever they want both up and down.
Hmm... there's an odd congruence here. That's exactly what the NBN guaranteed yesterday at the ACCANect forum (we discussed the condition of the copper for FTTN 100/40 and future G.Pon add-ons the other side of the FTTN cabinets)
And why is it a slum? What could possibly help?
Well, according to the logic presented here it could substantially improve the quality of life in such places. Hey may be it will in a long term way. The point I was trying to make was that nobody would invest in such a place as commercial going concern. That's not to say that there isn't substantially large pieces of middle ground in a place such as Australia. I was just questioning this strident notion that broadband is an international human right when commercial interests stand to gain much more than those in extreme poverty and direct benefits to them are, at least at the moment, quite opaque.
And don't get me started on the whole Broadband is an essential thing. No matter how much we try to explain how it's essential and how we will need it now or at some point in the future, you probably won't listen
That's not true. I appreciate its importance. If someone tries to tell me it's important as water, I might get a bit animated for various reasons but I strongly disagree with your characterisation of my view . Right now, do I think that either version of the way to this better/faster connectivity was best served as placing the NBN as GBE was a good thing? You can speculate on that.
Do I think that $70bn+ (which it would have been) for Gbps speeds for the last mile (hell last 12 feet in some cases) when RSPs would provision based on demand was a good idea? You can speculate on that.
Do I think either was going to become viable? Speculate on that.
Do I think we all go a clear picture when these decisions were made? You can speculate on that.
Various people posting here are just saying that effective use of IT has reduced the cost to government of delivering services.
Yesterday I was at a conference that discussed accessibility in great detail and there was a great deal conversation about retaining channels that our ageing population requires. ( just saying)
If the cost to government is down then why has the cost of living increased so much to the point most of us plebs are living in borderline poverty.
Mr Morrow will also say Australia is on track to becoming the first continent to be fully wired up to broadband.
Satellite, Fixed Wireless and Mobile Broadband are going to be really peeved if he actually says that. Magiced away as though they do not exist as the only option, or only cost effective option, for millions of their customers.
Bleh. Being at the speech I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method. Interested in feedback from this community.
True, no bickering, the Indian Government spent $3 billion on extending their fibre network
That's great!! Was this last mile infrastructure?
My first encounter with the 'back of a serviette' trope was on the West Wing episode, 'Inauguration: Part 2 � Over There' (2003).
Thanks for quoting that one as I had already the strongest belief that many politicians source their inspiration, actions and speak from TV. You just proved that this is the case.
You can speculate on that.
You can speculate on that.
Speculate on that.
You can speculate on that.
That is what I call a post with no purpose.
I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method.
I speculate that he was referring to a uniform last mile access method that does not include FTTP per definition. At the end of the day NBNv2 moves us further away from a uniform last mile access method. NBNv1 was more uniform then NBNv2.
Interested in feedback from this community.
That he will get. But his feedback will be in relation to why NBNv2 created a digital divide in Australia and no uniform last mile access method.
Everyone here can show their hand explicitly in a way I can't as a journalist within a public discussion.
Rubbish, on Whirlpool you can express your opinion anonymous. But the fact is that you are one of those journalist that believe are at the centre of a discussion which they remotely do not even understand. In that context they have a desire to be "balanced" while they don't understand that what is discussed. The key problem is that they cannot deliver the argument to their "balanced" approach and ending up speculating to readers. Right?
Half my time I come in here playing devils advocate and come under attack as a presumed sympathiser of one approach or another and it does me no good as I just get labelled... and I understand why that happens.
No, I'm terrible sorry to say, but you do not understand why that happens.
If you want to play devils advocate to create "balance" in a discussion, you need to become prepared to the table and understand the arguments for each side in much detail. You can't play advocate or create "balance" without that knowledge. The community is not going to provide you or any other journalist with feedback on speculations.
Same applies to Bill Morrow. He thinks that in his high paying job that he can use the community as a reflection board for feedback on poor decision making. Not sure what tablets he is on, but if you can manipulate as company the general public on what they require on broadband speeds, you showed utterly contempt to that same community. Don't expect that the community is going to be collaborative. The only feedback will be a long never ending streams of complaints. The TIO can desperately attempt to put them on the carpet to the benefit of the government by blaming the RSPs but at the end of the day it will not function. And it will less function by 2020. And even less by 2022.
Be an investigating journalist, collect the facts and arguments and then try to be the centre of the world and play advocates devil. If you give me (or anybody else here) an argument, they are more than happy to listen to you. If you deliver the argument they will not necessarily agree with you, but confident they respect your opinion. But don't start to give long lists of questions which all end with speculation and no arguments.
Balance in journalism is created by collecting valid arguments. It is not created by made arguments, invalid arguments or arguments placed out of context. They must miss that bit in the undergraduate journalist course at the Unis. And sometimes, when you collect all the valid arguments, you come to the conclusion that there is no balance. But that doesn't matter, don't try to seek balance for the sake of it or by compromising the argument.
No, when it all comes crashing down (as it is designed to do) they can all shout "LOOK, WE TOLD YOU IT WAS A BAD IDEA! LABORS FAULT!"
Well we all know that's what they'll (try) and do (yet again) :P
With the good showing of Labor in the upper and lower house at the 2016 Federal Election, and the marginal result that a Turnbull led LNP got, it looks like it will be way easier to destroy Malcolm Turnbull's reputation over the NBN than destroy Labor's reputation because of it.
Pretty much. Assuming they can get to 2019/20 they'll have had the reins and been making changes for 6 years, which does kind of make it harder to blame the last guys. The removal of the dates from the SoE though certainly mkaes it looks like they're worried about hitting even that date though... Fun times! :D
Well we all know that's what they'll (try) and do (yet again) :P
Indeed, the only bit they don't understand is that this invalid argument receives less and less momentum over time with the voter.
Pretty much.
My view is that Malcolm is already damaged collateral due to his period as Telecom Minister. The effects of that period of poor decision making, is and will become an even bigger piece of concrete around the legs of the government.
It will no little joke or an inexpensive one. On the latter, we will feel this very severely both on wasted money on the project but also as wasted income.
https://nlkabel.nl/wp-conten
Let's work the numbers from table 1 as it is clear that this table has been accurate until now.
The calculation is made on 0.3% GDP gain on every doubling of speed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- � Speed in Mbps � 15.3 � 30.6 � 61.2 � 122.4 � 165.4 - � Gain GDP in % � 0.0 � 0.3 � 0.6 � 0.9 � 1.0 - � Gain GDP in USD$ � x � 4.69b � 9.38b � 14.08b � 15.64b - ------------------------------ ----------------------------------------
If we would have followed the demand of the End Users, our country would have gained 43.69b on GDP by 2020. This is were demand drives innovation and economical growth. Sadly we don't have that income now under the MTM-policy. At best we get a gain of 0.3% in 2020 which represents 4.69b on GDP.
The simple digest of it. FTTP is the way to go as the increase in GDP will pay back easily the investment of the past. From company perspective, it is no issue at all to attract private capital which delivers earlier opportunities to pay off the government investment or for further deployment or upgrade.
That is where NBN Co's and this government story doesn't add up. It is claimed that the MTM-policy will create a lower peak government investment. This is rubbish as by now, if the government had pursued a full FTTP roll out, private investors would have queued at NBN Co's front door on revenue growth. Now they standing at somebody's else front door.
Bill is shouting now at the investors in front of somebody's else front door that he got the best deal. He THINKS that those investors will fall for the same marketing tactic as the Australians did. They will not. They know he has a plan to upgrade the network, he is building now. But the problem is he doesn't have a plan where to get the money from. He HOPES that they don't notice the negative cashflow in 2020. He HOPES that none of those investors read Whirlpool. He also HOPES that those investors are just as ignorant on the subject as everybody else.
When business decisions are made on hope, everything is lost.
if the government had pursued a full FTTP roll out, private investors would have queued at NBN Co's front door on revenue growth. Now they standing at somebody's else front door.
Indeed, sadly the government decided to fix something by destroying it.
I wouldn't invest in such a hog of a network in a million years even if I had billions of dollars at my disposal.
What good is it for any business that relies on the internet to be productive when the internet relies on a pile of old rot.
What a massive failure for our country.
:0<
Do I think that $70bn+ (which it would have been) for Gbps speeds for the last mile (hell last 12 feet in some cases
I notice that the journalist is still quoting the rubbish espoused by the LNP shills rather than that evidenced by Quigley. No credibility. Still not worth engaging with obviously.
Bleh. Being at the speech I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method. Interested in feedback from this community.
That's the biggest load of shit the guy is saying.
Lets see the policy was a "Multi Technology Mix", please explain how its uniform when its bits of FTTN, bits of HFC, bits of everything else and "Up to"?
Its anything but uniform.
Its anything but uniform.
Its like wearing a gumboot on one foot and a sneaker on the other to do a long distance running marathon and expecting to last the distance and win.
Bleh. Being at the speech I can say that he said that no other country in the world had attempted a uniform last mile access method.
Australia has not attempted a uniform last mile access method. Well it did try under labor, but now its anything but uniform. it cannot deliver uniform services, it cant even deliver consistent service.
They pay a premium.
To use it, not to build it
Half my time I come in here playing devils advocate and come under attack as a presumed sympathiser of one approach or another and it does me no good as I just get labelled.
oh sure, just trying to play devils advocate, the reason you are here is your published story, which was filled with inaccuracies, was misleading, and concluded with a clear bias to the current policy. that's about as far from devils advocate as you can get. now you are trying to make out that you are an unbiased reporter just trying to show the 'other side' of the argument. Sometimes however the 'other side' is just so wrong that ANY playing 'devils advocate' shows a clear bias.
Show me for example the 'devils advocate' position for Adolf Hitler
People don't have the same amount of control over, say, the onset of cancer
they could eat healthy, unprocessed foods, avoid ingesting toxins into their bodies, exercise.
I step off the curb and a car runs a red light and knocks me down
You could have been paying more attention to the road situation, I have survived several cars running red lights and never been knocked down before (just playing devils advocate of course)
Do I think that $70bn+ (which it would have been)
No it wouldn't, you see you cant even do the absolute basics of reporting. That's evidence gathering and checking. that's why your opinion on here is not regarded in great esteem. You appear to think you sit in some position above the dirty mass who cant be as objective as you. But you only post in the middle of the night , often incoherent babblings as if you are inebriated. You are about as far from objective as left is from right.
Go and see if you can provide your evidence of what sticking with labors FTTP footprint would have cost and demonstrate you can actually do this most basic of required skills for your chosen profession.
Saw this , looks like the EU is doing the right thing, pity the POMs and Brexit will exclude them. We need a policy like this. Turnbull and Co we are getting further behind !
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
Each time Morrow comes up with his wonderful crock of crap such as "NBN will put Australia in a 'leadership position"
Another country proves what an embarrassment he is and how much of an embarrassment we are when it comes to internet access.
*sigh*
looking at Lord Lightbulb's noodle network mess is this the sign of things to come:
Superloop plans to create a gigabit wireless end user service for enterprise customers that will bypass the NBN, leading to speculation that other wireless providers may follow them and create problems for NBN�s business model by offering high-speed bandwidth at a lower cost. Superloop announced it would buy wireless and IT provider BigAir Group for up to $205 million (CommsDay, p1; AFR, p20 & p48; The Australian, p21).
Each time Morrow comes up with his wonderful crock of crap such as "NBN will put Australia in a 'leadership position"
Another country proves what an embarrassment he is and how much of an embarrassment we are when it comes to internet access.
*sigh*
Morrow reminds of of a presentation we had at work once on the "business" reforms and the expected outcomes
They were showing all sorts of graphs with the "slopes" all heading in the "right" direction
Towards the end something twigged to me about one of the graphs
They had swapped the 2 axis which had made the slope match the rhetoric, but it actually showed the reverse, things for the business, us and the customers would be worse
When I showed my direct manager he was all "oh shit", no-one in his group had noticed it, all they saw was the slope of the graphs matching the rhetoric and they were pleased, they never examined what was shown to them.
Then their was a massive recall of the handouts etc from the presentation, just to remove embarrassment it would seem as they continued down the path and the place went to shite for all concerned
Graphs can be wonderful tools, but unless you can actually read and understand them and not just look at pretty pictures they sure make an easy way to gloss over or hide the actual facts
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
Shows up how totally lame Turnbull's Fraudband deployment is. We will probably find better more consistent internet speeds in the slums of the world than what we are installing here and getting told it is world class (rofl).
Then their was a massive recall of the handouts etc from the presentation, just to remove embarrassment it would seem as they continued down the path and the place went to shite for all concerned
Its amazing how far they would go to pull the wool over peoples eyes, especially to the laymen folks.
Graphs can be wonderful tools, but unless you can actually read and understand them and not just look at pretty pictures they sure make an easy way to gloss over or hide the actual facts
Beauty is eye of the beholder, deception is in the detail of that beauty.
Its like wearing a gumboot on one foot and a sneaker on the other to do a long distance running marathon and expecting to last the distance and win.
Can I say that the problem would be with the last mile?
I come in here playing devils advocate
The devil doesn't need an advocate.
Any chance we could give the LNP and Morrow the boot?
Sadly the voters had that chance but again blew it.
:0<
how long can this government hold power ? I mean literally EVERYTHING negative is blamed on the opposition ?
nbn in terrible mess cost blow outs galore = labors mess, still being cleared up
gay marriage = labors fault because they wont support my policies
not enough legislation to talk about in parliament after like 2 days of the opening = labors fault for not passing our policies
Like I mean .. if everything is labors fault, then whats the point of the lnp being in power ? if they cant even run a government when they ARE in power seriously whats the point ?
I'm not really a labor supporter as such, I tend to go by policies rather than stick with a party. but jeez this coalition is an utterly failed governent
I'm feeling very under the weather today..
If only there was something I could blame..
*shakes fist at Labor*
http://www.fool.com.au/2016/
1.The full rollout of the National Broadband Network (NBN) will cause a $2 -$3 billion negative hit to earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA), according to Telstra�s chief financial officer Warwick Bray.
That�s much larger than I envisioned, and despite the billions of dollars in compensation from the government, Telstra will need to generate between $5 and $7.4 billion in additional revenues at an EBITDA margin of around 40% to cover the hole. I see that as highly unlikely.
Telstra to Bill "Can you just say it's completed next year and we buy it in 2017.. We're kind of in a rush"
Telstra to Bill "Can you just say it's completed next year and we buy it in 2017.. We're kind of in a rush"
Or maybe "Can you just say it's completed next year and give it to us in 2017... oh and you'll need to give us some cash as well to upgrade it"
Seriously they must think Australians as dullards.
Election year � Promise 25mbps to all. <failed>
Next election cycle � Promise all Australian's connected to the NBN <pending>
So happens that all these dates NBN throw out fall in line with election years.
I know I'm biting into two pages of troll bait here, but ...
that $70bn+ (which it would have been) for Gbps speeds for the last mile
Total BS
From the information published by nbn� (not always voluntarily) and some further explanatory information from Quigly, we know the full fibre build was on track to "cost" ~$45bil by ~2020. This comprises of $30b build cost, $10bil payments to Telstra and $5bil of accumulated losses during the rollout. MTM is on track to cost ~$49/50bil by 2020 (though it won't quite be finished), comprising of $28bil build cost, $11bil payments to Telstra and $10bil in accumulated losses.
Further, the MTM NBN bill have notional earnings of $1.2-$1.8b pa (from latest corporate plan), but require ongoing capex of $0.5 to $1.5b a year giving at a potential market value of somewhere between $0 and $20bil (PE of 16).
The Fibre NBN would have earnings of $2.8-$3.3b pa and require little ongoing capex to maintain market share (and in all likelihood have earnings grow faster than MTM and GPD justifying a higher PE) giving it a valuation of between $45b and $52b (also a PE of 16).
I make the direct cost to taxpayers of the decision to go MTM to be between $30b and $50b. And that's just the direct cost, completely ignoring the wider economic impacts of it denying the public affordable access to gigabit internet.
The simple truth is Fibre as a last mile access is viable. MTM is not. This is not speculation. This is based on the best information available.
Edit s/true/truth/
Noticed a nice ad from CA in an old magazine from February of this year which is perfectly applicable on our Industry (including NBN Co):
The real disrupters? Your customers' customers.
The ad continues:
Users don't just expect a flawless experience, but one tailored to their tastes. Where the difference between success and failure comes down to the quality of your applications and millions in potential revenue hangs in balance. It's an enormous opportunity for those nimble enough to seize it.
Replace the word "applications" by "connectivity" and we are done.
Tailored, got that government?
Not something that is decided to be good enough for the customer's customers (aka End Users) of NBN Co.
Business, rewritten by software�
Much better than NBN�.
Replace the word "software" by "connectivity" and we have a new slogan for NBNv3.
Most definitely worth visiting this blog:
http://rewrite.ca.com
Going to frame this one:
http://www.ca.com/us/rew
If innovators are not willing to learn from their experiments, if they design them in such a way that they can only confirm their hypotheses, or if they ignore anything that goes against their hypotheses, they will still fail. That kind of failure can take a long time because it can look like success, and it can result in a long journey down the wrong path. What�s even worse is that an opportunity for a valuable pivot can be missed.
George Watt, VP of Strategy, CA Technologies
http://www.fool.com.au/2016
1.The full rollout of the National Broadband Network (NBN) will cause a $2 -$3 billion negative hit to earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation (EBITDA), according to Telstra�s chief financial officer Warwick Bray.
That�s much larger than I envisioned, and despite the billions of dollars in compensation from the government, Telstra will need to generate between $5 and $7.4 billion in additional revenues at an EBITDA margin of around 40% to cover the hole. I see that as highly unlikely.
Telstra to Bill "Can you just say it's completed next year and we buy it in 2017.. We're kind of in a rush"
FWIY, I think this is an overly pessimistic view of Telstra's prospects. This hit to earnings largely represents the delays in rolling out MTM. The latest corporate plan shows the projected payments to Telstra ramping up through 2017 and 2018, but we would be well into the middle of those now had we not had the 2 year delay as we switched access techs.
"New EU rules promise 100Mbps broadband and free Wi-Fi for all"
How will the European Commission deliver on this promise? Where's the money coming from?
How will the European Commission deliver on this promise? Where's the money coming from?
They never have a money problem. For starters, never ever one budget during its entire existence has been approved by members. Handy, you never go over budget. /s
To satisfy the many requests I've not had to "Please explain?" the 2 opposing sides of the Federal Coalition NBN/MTM policy.
FOR: We are in danger of being swamped by Fibre Zealots who bear a culture and ideology incompatible with our own.
AGAINST: We are in danger of being swamped by FTTN by those who bear a culture and ideology incompatible with our own.
The latest corporate plan shows the projected payments to Telstra ramping up through 2017 and 2018
You say this like its a good thing ?
mate, I manage the FTTN network
Remember when NBN staff used to come onto whirlpool and talk to people?
That was pre-Liberal days, the current NBN conditions would find an employer sacked if they spoke on reddit/whirlpool about the network.
Take it with a mountain of salt, because we know they're full of salt.
Take it with a mountain of salt, because we know they're full of salt.
I remember the name, he is in the penalty box and hasn't been online since.
/user/41125
Want to see some mad haxor skills you need to see this video. Quite realistic too >
https://www.youtube.com/wat
:)
Morrow comes up with his wonderful crock of crap such as "NBN will put Australia in a 'leadership position"
Perhaps he just needs to re-order the list with 'Fastest on top'.
Perhaps he just needs to re-order the list with 'Fastest on top'.
The TO--morrow man has mixed up the top with the bottom of the list.
They pay a premium.
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
http://www.zdnet.com/article
we are so far behind now.
Superloop plans to create a gigabit wireless end user service for enterprise customers that will bypass the NBN, leading to speculation that other wireless providers may follow them and create problems for NBN�s business model
It's a bit more than speculation, on the basis of the info released to date.
It's a very telling point that, despite many well-known problems with mass wireless, there are providers who have rightly seen the shortcomings of MTM provide them a business opportunity for development.
It would be very difficult to find a more telling response overall to the destruction of the original NBN, plus the farcical 'replacement' with the obsolescent MTM.
looking at Lord Lightbulb's noodle network mess is this the sign of things to come
We should all fully recognise Mr Harbourside Mansion for the true value of his extraordinary input.
Take it with a mountain of salt, because we know they're full of salt.
He sounds full of it, trying to convince me that the total bandwidth doesn't matter as no one will use their connection that much.
there are providers who have rightly seen the shortcomings of MTM provide them a business opportunity for development.
This, Malcom will tell you, is showing how the LNP encourages competition in business, and we all know that competition makes for better outcomes for the end users right ....
whats that you say about how much we wasted on the nbn to then be squeezed for every last penny by a private company because they are the only ones who have laid the infrastructure for the services we require.......
sshh didn't Bill tell you to not worry about the price
if anyone else wants to chime in and see what the guy who "mate, I manage the FTTN network. I'm very, very familiar with how it's built." has to say about it. https://www.reddit.com/r/nbn/
it kind of figures that the guy running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
and we all know that competition makes for better outcomes for the end users right ...
Of course it does � in the relatively small high-density, high-value areas where it might happen.
Pity about the other 98% of the land mass, where there will be nothing at all beyond the dire MTM.
Though it seems increasingly possible that the Prince of Point Piper may have little more than some degree of distant contempt for anything beyond the range of his stylish loggia . . .
Remember when NBN staff used to come onto whirlpool and talk to people?
The writing style and claims (about backhaul scalability, role in the FTTN rollout and so on) makes me think that mediweevil on reddit and gpon on Whirlpool are one and the same.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2538297#r13
it kind of figures that the guy running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
it kind of figures that the guy claiming to be running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
Remember we also have a guy on here claiming to be a journalist.
makes me think that mediweevil
the last thing you want in anything are weevils, I think they are worse than gremlins
I'd suggest some of you are being excessively dismissive of other posters or alternate views. With the way that the same slogans and lack of cohesive arguments being presented doesn't make you any different from raoul or kingy for blind belief, just a different tech. Any time a decent and factual discussion gets started then it just gets buried under the same stuff stated for years.
You may not agree with the policy that mediweavil is implementing, but it's clear he has good insight and reasoning for how they are implementing. Same for discussions with gpon. While I have shared my own issues with charlie and how he engages here, it's good to have that input.
All that will end up happening is that all members of this thread get tarred with the same dismissive attitude towards Whirlpool. And lots of opportunities have been lost on the NBN in that regards.
With the way that the same slogans and lack of cohesive arguments being presented doesn't make you any different from raoul or kingy for blind belief, just a different tech.
You are mistaken � the economic and technical arguments for FTTP and against FTTN are unimpeachable.
it kind of figures that the guy claiming to be running the FTTN network has no idea of its limitations in the slightest.
Remember we also have a guy on here claiming to be a journalist
this is true, however the evidence of what the article said and what the user on here said actually match up quite well, neither show any signs of comprehension.
as for the guy running the FTTN roll out, well you can see evidenced by the abysmal product, its over inflated costs, its slow roll out, and its terrible performance, it tally's quite well with a manager that knows nothing about what he is doing,
So on the whole .. they are both really quite believable claims. If rather embarrassing ones.
You are mistaken � the economic and technical arguments for FTTP and against FTTN are unimpeachable.
pretty much, but I see what MrMac is saying here, sinking to their levels only increases their credibility.
In the end, it really doesn't matter what is said on Whirlpool. What random people on an internet forum think is not going to sway a government fixated on a policy. Personally I don't think there is anything that can be done about the nbn anymore, this thread is effectively dead as the policy is there and not changing, the contracts are in place, at some undefined time in the future the nbn will declare it has completed the roll out whether it has or not and we will be left to live with that.
Any future changes will likely come in the form of private business laying its own superior infrastructure and fleecing the public while crippling the nbn into obscurity.
Saw this , looks like the EU is doing the right thing, pity the POMs and Brexit will exclude them. We need a policy like this. Turnbull and Co we are getting further behind !
Germany and France now that Britain has decided to leave ... lol I'm sure they will be very happy to foot the bill.
The European Commission isn't supplying any money, it's just an EU-law that says by 2025 all member states should have universal internet access of at least 100 mbps. Judging by eastern europe and spain/portugal this should be easy for them to achieve.
There is however, $120 million euros for free wifi hotspot projects around the EU.
Considering the government is busy negotiating an EU-FTA perhaps they should add the 100 mbps EU directive to the deal. :-)
Personally I don't think there is anything that can be done about the nbn anymore, ...
You're probably right. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't hope and push for there to be transparency and accountability of what nbn� are doing and claiming to be doing.
This will eventually all come out in the wash. Whether that happens during the current Government's term .... pushed by a strong Senate or joint committee (I won't be holding my breath), or after this Government's term ..... I don't know ..... but the truth will eventually come out.
And I think that we can be fairly certain that Turnbull, Morrow and the LNP will not come out of it smelling of roses.
And I think that we can be fairly certain that Turnbull, Morrow and the LNP will not come out of it smelling of roses.
Their fate will be similar to the board of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation (I hope)
We will regret what has been done to the NBN for decades to come!
What random people on an internet forum think is not going to sway a government fixated on a policy.
IMHO what's happening is there is now a complete dearth of new information re this project. There is no information leaking from nbn�. There are no Senate hearings. Even finder isn't getting the same updates they once were. In short, they have effectively shut down the flow of real information. Even the shills are struggling to find half truths to make government supportive claims.
Aside from the political motivations, there is probably another important reason for this: nbn�'s need to access the finance markets. It's one thing to snow the public with a lot of BS to win an election, no crime in that. But to raise money from public capital markets does require a certain degree of honesty and disclosure. It doesn't always happen of course. But were a super high profile and government owned/backed project caught raising capital from the markets under false pretences, the executives and/or board members (someone at least, and certainly not the politicians) would be facing gaol time.
Personally I don't think there is anything that can be done about the nbn anymore, this thread is effectively dead as the policy is there and not changing, the contracts are in place, at some undefined time in the future the nbn will declare it has completed the roll out whether it has or not and we will be left to live with that.
I had been of the view that at some point during this parliament nbn� would shift away from FTTN to a more fibre oriented position (either FTTdp or some other way of rolling fibre without it looking like a backdown), for no other reason than to save money. Indeed I think the leaks from nbn� in the lead up to the election were aimed at nudging the Libs toward this less suicidal position.
With the release of the latest corporate plan, that now appears unlikely. Instead they have doubled down on FTTN, at the expense of never being able to meet the 90% gets > 50mbps SOE requirement. I suspect this decision was made (or forced on them) as early as the first half of last year, but they've waited till now to drip out this information.
As for what can be done, I think there is plenty that could be done within the MTM framework, though I doubt any of it will be. Never the less, here goes:
1) nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
The speed tier differential pricing model designed for fibre at the start of this decade is clearly unsustainable into the next decade. In the not too distance future 4.5G cellular will offer superior performance to FTTN NBN. The only comparative advantage (slow) fixed line can offer is cheap capacity. Even with only 100Mhz of spectra each cell tower only needs to achieve a spectral efficiency of 10b/hz to match an nbn� node for capacity. 10gps backhaul costs (next to) nothing to put in now, and positions nbn�'s inferior performing FTTN product to retain some sort of usefulness into the next decade. The cost today is trivial, but expensive to retrofit. But it potentially extends the useful economic life of the nodes for years.
2) Technology Choices needs to be taken seriously.
People want to buy fibre internet. People want to invest in fibre internet. People even want to donate to the cause of fibre internet. But nbn� have given a big FU to all these people prepared to give them money, while at the same time not delivered potential customers a service and crying poor going to the capital markets asking for loans. It's pure insanity. This program needs to be re-structured so people who want to invest in fibre, purchase fibre or even supply fibre can do so with nbn�'s assistance � or at very least without their obstruction.
Remember, this isn't the Labor party line, it's the Liberal party's official position. People who need fibre and are prepared to pay for it can get it, fibre will be used where it makes financial sense to do so, there will be facilities competition etc. But it's not happening.
Let me put it even simpler:
Hey nbn�! People want to give you money to install fibre. Let them give it to you!
3) We need to stop greenfields copper/FTTN NOW!
This subsidising Telstra to install copper that nbn� will ultimately lease back � to connect to a node nbn� will have to build � just to provide a substandard obsolete service over is also completely insane. What we need are ACMA rules requiring new copper leadins to be accompanied by a new fibre lead in, so when nbn� (or whoever) finally rolls fibre down the street, the new house just has to be patched in. In new estates we need rules ensuring the new street conduits are filled with fibre, and not copper. So when nbn� finally comes to down, they patch in the fibre and lease that from whoever owns it, rather than leasing copper and then having to build a useless node as well.
4) We need genuine community consultation.
Between design and commencement of construction of each SAM there should be a 3 month community consultation period where community feedback and ideas can be used to improve the design. I can understand why any agency � especially one which knows they are shafting their customers � would fear this � and yes, squeaky wheels would also get more oil. But I have no doubt this would ultimately save more money that it costs, and (at very least) avoid a whole pile of difficult to solve problems down the track.
5) Ditch the anti-fibre attitude.
MTM is supposed to include FTTP as one of the tech options. Yet nbn� have exhibited an almost pathological hatred of anything fibre. There are cases where FTTP is the cheapest option and would save money up front even using nbn�'s current perverted peak funding metric. Such as ADAs in near new estates where there are new fibre ready conduits and PCDs in place. Or where 2 nodes are placed side by side because their combined premises count is 400. (ie spend $100k running fibre down one short street and save $250k by building one less node).
Just remember nbn�, fibre optic cable was not invented by the Labor party. FTTP is part of the MTM mix. Where fibre can be used to save money up front and reduce overall peak funding, for heavens sake use it!
I'd like to re-iterate, nothing here is anything other than unimplemented Coalition policy. To me it speaks volumes of just how little the Coalition believe in their own agenda that even these simple steps can't happen.
Rubbish, on Whirlpool you can express your opinion anonymous. But the fact is that you are one of those journalist that believe are at the centre of a discussion which they remotely do not even understand. In that context they have a desire to be "balanced" while they don't understand that what is discussed.
No. I have put up my hand and named my identity as a the author of certain pieces to which this community objects. That takes away my anonymity. It's fine healthy to have debate. I reject your assertion that I don't understand the debate and I challenge representations made by NBN Co as I do the arguments made here. But I'll repeat and stand by my statement that it is devil's advocate work in the name of exploration.
Show me for example the 'devils advocate' position for Adolf Hitler
Adolf Hitler?!
they could eat healthy, unprocessed foods, avoid ingesting toxins into their bodies, exercise.
Of they may just have BRCA genetic disposition.
Sometimes however the 'other side' is just so wrong that ANY playing 'devils advocate' shows a clear bias.
And clearly by this you think you're not being biased?
You could have been paying more attention to the road situation, I have survived several cars running red lights and never been knocked down before (just playing devils advocate of course)
Well, I hope we're all blessed with the situational awareness of someone such as yourself but it has been known to happen.
But you only post in the middle of the night , often incoherent babblings as if you are inebriated. You are about as far from objective as left is from right.
I base that on NBN Co's own estimates. I post later at night because my working rhythms are a touch different from most people as a freelancer and often I'm writing/editing in the evening rather than the day time.
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
True and there's a problem here if the RSPs lack confidence in the FTTN enough to market it.
True and there's a problem here if the RSPs lack confidence in the FTTN enough to market it
Are RSP's as concerned about having this issue over HFC?
Are RSP's as concerned about having this issue over HFC?
I can't really say without investigation but the problem is that they shut down on comment on provisioning. I do note Optus' recent changes in their HFC plans with some curiosity.
That is what I call a post with no purpose.
Frank, I was trying to codify what I can't say.
I'm not sure how reliable this site is but it looks like FTTH is even growing in Spain. What country's next? The Netherlands?
FTTH is growing very fast in Spain with 110,219 new lines in July, according to the latest figures from the CNMC.
Funny how there seems to be uptake in FTTH in other country's and growing but when it was here people weren't up taking it or saying it's not needed and they'll keep their regular landline. Most people here still say there's no need for it while people in Spain will take it no questions asked.
Gotta bless the local papers through for brainwashing people into saying FTTP is crap and a waste of money. But when the green nodes come rolling through everyone is as silent as a mouse and says SFA about it.
By contrast, DSL lost 101,000 lines and HFC cable over 8,000 lines. Over the last 12 months, FTTH has gained 1.8 million lines while DSL lost 1.5 million.
Ah so the old technology like HFC and DSL is dropping like dead meat and over here it's the complete opposite (Well DSL is still shutdown and upgraded to VDSL instead) FTTH is dropping here (Unless you are still in a lucky development getting FTTP and not Node)
Source � http://advanced-television.co
I might of found the figures for the ^ above too but it's in Spanish and the built in google translate is funky so either you need to know Spanish or use translate and hope for the best
http://data.cnmc.es/datagraph/jsp/inf_men.jsp
FIXED BROADBAND LINES
1,661 monthly variation
101,219 DSL
HFC 8010
FTTH 110890
YTD 203,172
Total 13,381,205 park
Rate of change of total park ( jul'16 � jul'15 ) 4%
graphics menu
Gotta bless the local papers through for brainwashing people into saying FTTP is crap and a waste of money. But when the green nodes come rolling through everyone is as silent as a mouse and says SFA about it.
Only one word is needed to cover this,------------- Murdoch
True and there's a problem here if the RSPs lack confidence in the FTTN enough to market it.
Confidence?
You can't market something you can't deliver. I'm pretty sure the ACCC have rules about that
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
Only one word is needed to cover this,------------- Murdoch
And he is not even an Australian citizen he gave that up so he could try and brainwash the world.
@Charliedontsurf
You've been shown previously that you don't understand the technology.
Maybe you've knuckled down since and have a much better understanding of all of the moving pieces, but until I actually see it consistently I'm pretty much going to ignore what you say.
...and yes I realise tha catch-22 inherent in my position, but that's what you get for initially posturing as knowledgeable- you lose the initial assumption of competence that most people are given.
Edit: added person I was replying to.
Well your post had a lot of thought given to it and reminds me that Whirlpool should have a 'top posts' vote/ feature, so it does not get lost in thousands of Astroturfers vs true believers arguments.
1) nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
It is a serious problem right now, let alone when nodes are fully populated. Unfortunately, it goes against the argument that it is all the ISP's fault for not buying enough CVC that the NBN seems to want to go with, and after all, it costs more.
2) Technology Choices needs to be taken seriously.
It appears the NBN want full cost recovery, and they have designed their network without the slightest thought that people might actually want fibre, so of course the costs are very high.
We have seen here that MT's $2K to $3K has mutated to $10K to $40K, or even more. Confidentiality aside, this should be a serious black eye to MT in the MSM, but there is stunning silence. Even the tech press has been soft on this. As for Labor, they should be savaging MT and the current puppet about it but there is a baffling quiet. It is like they feel the lost the argument and the high ground, along with the election.
We need to stop greenfields copper/FTTN NOW!
Again a total no-brainer, swamped by penny-pinching cost-cutting.
4) We need genuine community consultation.
If the other things happened, I could live without this
5) Ditch the anti-fibre attitude.
Totally true but will not happen for the term of this government no matter what. Any relaxation to the policy gives ammunition to the opposition.
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
My FTTP 100/40 home phone bundle with TPG is costing me $5 a month more than the absolutely crap adsl2+ bundle I had with iINet. I'm more than happy to pay a premium for a premium service. The copper in our area was/is so bad the only way fttn would have worked would have been to replace all the copper.
The copper in our area was/is so bad the only way fttn would have worked would have been to replace all the copper.
Isn't that part of Turnbull's plan to help the mining industry liberal friends.
The copper in our area was/is so bad the only way fttn would have worked would have been to replace all the copper.
Same here, which is probably why it was pushed back a year. I bet it will be quietly dropped off the three year plan eventually.
15 Min from Brisbane CBD.
And clearly by this you think you're not being biased?
If a doctor tells you you have cancer, you go to another doctor for a second opinion. If that second opinion also comes back as cancer, where is the bias?
The vast majority of the technical and financial experts in the networking field around the world are saying FTTH is the way forward, why is it bias to say FTTH is the better technology?
What country's next? The Netherlands?
The Netherlands is an odd one out.
When I was a kid, mid 70's, my complete town was already facilitated by a underground TV-cable network facilitated by the local council. It was not that big, only 50,000 citizens. No antennas on the roof, at least not in the cities. We had around that time already 20 TV-stations and many more radio stations. After that the commercial stations were added, many more TV-stations were added (around 40) and I remember to be able to watch Italian TV in perfect quality. Talking mid 80's. By the time Internet came around, the network was made suitable to transport data. This meant that from the moment go, the incumbent Telecom company KPN had competition on the copper network. This resulted in a healthy competition on speed but also volume. Restricted volume was only a brief period introduced to be dropped for unlimited. Actually it was not advertised as unlimited. It was not a selling point any more or a differentiation so why advertise on it?
At the start of 2000's the process of the past, councils building their own network repeated. This time with fibre. The competition on HFC actually slows down now the roll out and initiatives. Now before trolls are jumping, there is a major difference between Australia and the Netherlands, the HFC networks are maintained top notch in the Netherlands.
At any case, no users are skipping out on poor broadband speeds.
The incumbent Telecom company KPN "struggles" but some could call it "healthy competition". Their core asset is copper and they have troubles delivering on speed and quality. They attempted through KPNQWest to enter the fibre market but the company collapsed. They have been a target of Carlos Slim, but the Dutch Government execute a call option which resulted in that Carlos could not take-over KPN as the Government had a majority in shares.
Why this tactic was not followed with NBNv1, don't ask me. You simply create call options and through a public listing you collect the capital. If a threat of take-over occurs, you simple call the option and raise your vote count. Capital is easy to collect on a fibre network as the returns are proven high. Large capital investors queue.
The Netherlands is actually a nice example where regulation was very low and the initiative was left at large to the councils to compete with KPN. Some counsels worked together to create backhaul between towns, many initiatives were taken even in smaller cities and villages. In effect KPN was punished for not investing in their core business.
There was no desire for the Dutch Government to actually protect KPN against the Counsil initiatives. The only time the Dutch Government swing into action was protecting foreign ownership of the company.
The situation in Australia is much different. There always has been that desire to control the Telecom market in the benefit of major carriers. That clearly didn't work and we now receive the fruit of this strategy. We discover the fruit is rotten and we lack the courage with the Government and regulators to make a change.
This failed strategy, results in no investors willing to participate in the Australia telecom market. And it doesn't matter if you are an entrepreneur or NBN Co. No private capital. Period. Who wants to invest in a market where the government and the regulators protect certain players through vested interests?
Well your post had a lot of thought given to it and reminds me that Whirlpool should have a 'top posts' vote/ feature, so it does not get lost in thousands of Astroturfers vs true believers arguments.
Very much agreed
1) nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
I'm not sure if this is as big an issue today as it is made out to be. Internet behaviour pattern's are fairly broad, even during a level of peak usage, and also constrainted by limitations of FTTN as well. To a certain extent I trust NBNCo to manage capacity appropriately, plus the cost of 10Gbps equipment today is unnecessary as a standard. I would however like to see more transparency and regulation in the future on capacity/CVC.
I agree completely to all your other points, though I'd add to ditch the anti > 25Mbps attitude along with fibre. Libs won, their policy is in place, but now time to work towards best possible outcomes over the longer term. Importantly that means financially viable NBN.
Gotta bless the local papers through for brainwashing people into saying FTTP is crap and a waste of money. But when the green nodes come rolling through everyone is as silent as a mouse and says SFA about it.
That is because the activation rates on FTTN/B are far, far lower than FTTP. Who would of thought?
The activation rates on FTTP are around the 40%-50% mark whereas FTTN/B is around the 5% to 10%.
noide@51561497 Tandem TrainRider writes...
IMHO what's happening is there is now a complete dearth of new information re this project
nbn�'s need to access the finance markets
Good point, that has certainly helped kill off discussion. Everything has been discussed, and the facts and figures added up.
Either way I don't think we are going to see a change, I got no sense that FTTdp was on the horizon, all this time and energy working on ways to squeeze more performance out of the copper. Is just to justify the approach "Look see this route we are taking you also can achieve higher speeds than we can do right now"
But in reality its like making the most aerodynamic, lightweight, high performance horse cart. And racing it against cars, it only goes so fast, for so long before it rapidly falls behind.
nbn� must ditch the 1gbps backhaul from the nodes, and install 10gbps up front.
Good idea but ..
1) I am pretty sure that they run 4 fibres, 2 active to provide 2 Gbps and 2 spare for future growth or upgrades (micronodes)
still pathetic with 384 potential users per node, but if your point was more about the switching ability then ...
The cost today is trivial
2) I'm not so sure Malcom would agree with that, that basically requires refitting the nodes with 10 Gbps capable switching ... to 70,000 nodes, and then replacing the switching at the POIs. The difference in pricing between 1 Gbps switching and 10 Gbps switching at a retail level is in the order of 10 times its going to significantly impact costs. Hence it hasn't been done from the outset, because CapEx is supposed to be important to this mob.
We need to stop greenfields copper/FTTN NOW!
Too late, nodes are in place already. The sad thing is that even by nbns own reckoning greenfields FTTP is their cheapest technology.
We need genuine community consultation.
I don't see the value in this really. with a good roll out plan, sure consultation with the council to figure out how to avoid digging the same streets as some other utility, and councils could hold their own sessions for the public to pass on ideas if there was much interest in the area, but forcing nbn to do it would probably just slow things up imo.
Ditch the anti-fibre attitude
Apparently there isn't one.
I'm not sure if this is as big an issue today as it is made out to be.
Well it depends on how many nodes actually get loaded up. It seems with current uptake on FTTN so low that it might not be an issue. but just simple maths 2 Gbps divided between 384 users, gives a maximum of 5Mbps each connection.
that's way under the guaranteed minimums. its an issue for sure, how big an issue ?
I suspect the route to upgrade will be as a particular node starts hitting the backhaul headroom, they will either start by adding the spare fibres, or consider upgrading that single node. Leaving users struggling for however long that process ends up taking I guess ? The problem is that the nodes service too many people, some from too far away, 4 fibres for 100 users would give much better results, but have 3 to 4 times as many nodes.
I'm not sure how reliable this site is but it looks like FTTH is even growing in Spain
That is correct.
Now for a pop quiz, what is the name of the company rolling out FTTH in Spain?
Extra credit points for tie-in information :)
https://broadbandworldforum.
Reviewing the economic impact of gigabit connectivity, the FTTH Council determined that �communities with widely available gigabit access have per capita GDP that is 1.1 percent higher [than those without gigabit]� � accounting for a full $1.4 Billion in the US.
Is that an NBN dog I see running away with its tail between its legs?
Why yes, yes it is.
Well it depends on how many nodes actually get loaded up. It seems with current uptake on FTTN so low that it might not be an issue. but just simple maths 2 Gbps divided between 384 users, gives a maximum of 5Mbps each connection.
Capacity wise, it's unlikely that a node will be full loaded with 384 users. Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time. Consumer behaviour varies across the timescale with different activities with varying bandwidth requirements, and varying bandwidth capacity at the premise. Even if the worst case did happen, which I would guess at < 1%, then sure upgrade that specific node to 10Gbps.
I dont post much in these threads as my time to chat is to sporadic to engage in convo so i lurk and read mostly.
Just sayin thanks to you guys for providing good info and article links to fill my spare time with good reading. I appreciate what you guys are doing here.
:)
My area got fttn and tho the sync is good and line stability is excellent i wish the network was better, after only 3 days the congestion in peak is awfull. 4 weeks on and Lastnight all i seen was 1500k/sec of the 7400k/sec capable.
The school holidays is scary and i think im in for a world of hurt.
https://twitter.com/SAD_NBN_
A user on FTTN 50mbps and a month of monitoring speeds.
Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time.
Peak hour gaming and streaming around 7pm onwards
activation rates on FTTN/B are far, far lower than FTTP. Who would of thought?
The activation rates on FTTP are around the 40%-50% mark whereas FTTN/B is around the 5% to 10%.
I'm still inclined to punt on the actually LNP strategy with the NBN and NBNCo to be
1. Make it look like NBNCo is rolling out the network on time and budget (by changing the scope and goalposts)
2. Then claim that activation rates are not high enough to make the Network financial viable or raise private sector funding required to finish the NBN/MTM. Shifting blame of this to RSP's, customers, social and MSM media, non-NBN Wireless Broadband alternatives and of course the previous Government.
Everything that is happening at the moment with the NBN/MTM and NBNCo appears to fit into the above IMO.
Where we go to from here is anyone's guess.
With a high risk that any attempts to change course from here are going to be met with resistance from all sides, including Telstra, who i would have thought, would prefer to see the NBN/MTM completed ASAP, as per the current SOE, rather than take on the risk of inheriting a half complete NBN/MTM.
If the LNP had more control of parliament, things might be different. But they don't have much control, and are not likely to get a much more control, if any at all, at the next Federal Election (early or on time).
Everything is fine, nothing is wrong with your internet *waves hand*
Effit il put my 2 cents from my perspective of the avg older millennial, im 32.
I had adsl2 here with a sync of 22 and it was enough barely for netflix on the tv and 2 users on youtube. During peak times it was bad but not bad enough to kill us it just made netflix drop hd and youtube drop to 480p.
On fttn now its been great except for horrid peak time congestions, triple downstream to 62 and i love the upload, thing is after reading what people have pointed out here i can see why problems exist.
Firstly the fttn cabinets dont have enough backhaul and i KNOW im not special most of my friends use netflix and kids love youtube and to them youtube is their netflix.
The cvc is to expensive so congestion at the cvc combined with congestion at the nodes. AWESOME !!
So to tl;dr what im saying is that the government is so out of touch not understanding that between middle aged users on netflix and high bandwidth usage gaming (im also a gamer) and kids smashing free game downloads, big mods and youtubing like crazy means the nbn is screwed before its finished.
I think every comment I can make about this has been covered here already by better minds than mine.
Everything is fine, nothing is wrong with your internet *waves hand*
I can't access the article just as well anyway.
But I guess this is the great "quality control" that our internet is getting.
Consumers are getting shafted on piss poor quality internet access for the money.
Its bloody obscene.
Instead, telcos and industry groups have suggested the introduction of guidelines designed to inform customers about the sort of service they can expect.
According to the industry, customers by and large need to calibrate their expectations when it comes to fixed broadband speeds and there is enough competition in the market for them to switch providers if they are dissatisfied by a service.
The rest of this article is a must read, with selected quotes from TPG, Optus and Telstra.
Customers need to understand that they are getting up to speeds from all NBN Services.
That there are no minimum speeds guaranteed
Just maximum speeds guaranteed on each speed tier or speed boost pack.
That switching providers when you are under a 2 year contract has early termination $ penalty clauses?
That the competition alternatives may offer little material difference to overcome speed issues.
That some of the speed issues are nothing to do with the RSP and that changing to any competitors might not make any difference.
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
Peak hour gaming and streaming around 7pm onwards
Gaming is very low in terms of bandwidth requirements, and also would not be a high representation of 200 connections on a node. Even with streaming, you won't get high numbers of people streaming concurrently or at same high levels of quality.
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
Edit: I think i'll remove my official comment until official sources come in :)
edit #2 -
I guess the new NBN senate committee will not be able to put NBN under pressure now that Conroy has gone.
Nobody else really knows the network like him.
Well your post had a lot of thought given to it
Thanks for the kind words.
I'm not sure if this is as big an issue today as it is made out to be. Internet behaviour pattern's are fairly broad, even during a level of peak usage, and also constrained by limitations of FTTN as well
I agree with this. In the short term it is more an issue of perception than reality. Why would an RSP "adequately" provision sufficient CVC when if they did, there is every chance their users will suffer congestion on the nbn� side anyway?
My understanding is the differential cost of installing 10gbps vs 1gbps up front is a couple of hundred dollars at most. No more than $10mil across the entire FTTN build. But retrofitting we're talking a truck roll, the new equipment, possibly splicing fibres and almost certainly end user downtime and hence project management costs, liaising with RSPs etc. It'll be thousands, perhaps more. And even then it won't be nation wide, so it will limit nbn�'s (or more likely their new owner's) ability to offer more competitive (with wireless) price plans.
My main point was this will more likely be an issue in a post 2020 world, where FTTN fixed line will be competing with wireless on capacity rather than performance (ie it will be used to offload secondary traffic away from your cell phone to keep within your data limit). I think 10gbps will extend the economic life of the nodes by a good 2 years (I'm sure plenty will still be in use a decade beyond that FWIW), and hence raise nbn�'s resale value.
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
I guess now NBNco is now full up with yes men now.
Well at least we all know what direction the NBNco is going now at full speed.
Is down....
Edit: I think i'll remove my official comment until official sources come in :)
Apparently he announced he was leaving in senate last night, also on hansard, and it seems no one noticed...
Edit: tabled his farewall speech, not announced it
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement.
Someone must have found his resignation letter on the APH mail server.
Edit: tabled his farewall speech, not announced it
But what will the shills do now? Their lifelong missionary zeal to cure Conrovia isn't needed any more. So we have bored anti fibre zealots. They remind me of 19th century Samurai in japan who picked fights out of boredom.
To every shill. The conrovia is over! Give it up! Your mission given to you by the Gods of Murdock is over.
Capacity wise, it's unlikely that a node will be full loaded with 384 users
to be fair, the best node is a loaded node, FTTN is really only a viable technology in high density areas, e.g.. places where there are 384 premises close by,
My guess is that people in CBDs and nearby will be on fairly loaded nodes, while people further out will be on less .loaded nodes.
Its a bit of a shame really because the likely high tier users will be the businesses in the CBD
Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time
well frankly they cant get even close to that on a fully loaded node, a fully loaded node doesn't need the connections to be fully utilised, most businesses use the internet at the same time, between 8am and 6pm. Most residential users use the internet at the same time, between 4pm and 12am.
Netflix release entire seasons, and people binge watch. This has already been evidenced with Netflix when it was introduced in Australia. events occur online at certain times, and at those times people want to use their bandwidth at the same time.
Before they changed to ASAP, the last date we were given for completion was 2020 right ? right in time for the next Olympics, Something that a LOT of Australians watched at the same time right ... Tokyo are recording it in 8k. But we wont be watching it at that will we.to be fair we probably wont be able to even stream HD consistently.
People DO use the internet at the same times, its how our lives are structured, its why we have always had peak hour congestion. and the FTTN implementation has done nothing to address that, the 2Gbps designed capacity from each node is certainly part of that issue.
Breaking news, Stephen Conroy resigned.
"When you resent being in Canberra because you are missing your daughter's soccer training it is time to retire from the federal Parliament.'
Yup tis official.
Guess he had enough
Good idea but ..
1) I am pretty sure that they run 4 fibres, 2 active to provide 2 Gbps and 2 spare for future growth or upgrades (micronodes)
it is 1 fibre for download and 1 fibre for upload, it is only a 1Gbps circuit
so if the enable the second pair that will permit the node to have 2Gbps capacity.
some Telcos do like to talk about combined download and upload as it can make the numbers sound better but it is misleading for those actually using he system
Was conroy for or against fttp?
Guess he had enough
That is fair to say.
fair play to him, who would want to have their name associated with this network, he has done what he can.
He can see that the future is set with respect to communications in this country, why not get out, he has been in long enough to earn one of those perpetual pensions. If he is smart he will get on the board of Telstra next and screw nbn from the other side ;/
Guess he had enough
Don't blame him really.
LNP coalition is hellbent pushing their fraud something has got to give.
Apparently he announced he was leaving in senate last night, also on hansard, and it seems no one noticed...
Edit: tabled his farewall speech, not announced it
Says enough in my view. Even his party didn't realise.
Is down....
Apparently they are going to adopt, Coles slogan.
Before they changed to ASAP, the last date we were given for completion was 2020 right ? right in time for the next Olympics, Something that a LOT of Australians watched at the same time right ... Tokyo are recording it in 8k. But we wont be watching it at that will we.to be fair we probably wont be able to even stream HD consistently.
To be, umm...fair though. Channel 7 will most likely have all the rights stitched up for that, So streaming wont be available anyway.
Wouldn't want you accessing content any other way than theirs
Nobody else really knows the network like him.
Why do U think I wrote that it depends on the skills and knowledge of the 10 non government members?
My educated guess, Conroy didn't like the proposal of the Government in regards to the Committee. He is a good Senator and party member so he will claim that it is time for the family. The real reason will come out soon. Just a matter of time.
I think that some politicians get uncomfortable with the developing cosy relationship between the two biggest parties. The developments are an exact copy of what occurred in Europe in many countries. The threat of populist independents brings the biggest parties closer. The desire to stay on the plouche makes that they compromise to much, effectively increasing the opposite of what they wish to achieve, a larger flow to independents.
For the scrutiny of the MTM-policy and NBN Co that is not a good one. As this is a compromise area. Stephen Conroy does not fit into that. And the situation in regards to the submarines in his new portfolio is a same story but worse as the joint interest (Pyne's retain of the seat, Labor's jobs) makes the biggest political parties almost partners.
I think that some politicians get uncomfortable with the developing cosy relationship between the two biggest parties.
exactly, and all you have to do is look at the backflip labor have just done on higher ed cuts ARENA (renewables) and the census. its a time when we need people to fight for whats right and not just cave into vested interests like the FTTN garbage that is being foisted upon us by a biased media, which is where i really lay the blame. Good work Conroy and thanks for battling so hard!
.@abcnews has been to Senator Conroy's Melbourne office. Staff didn't know anything the retirement announcement #auspol
says a lot....
Proof is delivered faster than fibre.
Could I take this opportunity to thank and congratulate Senator Cormann for his constructive approach to resolving some of the difficult issues. Both sides were involved in a little bit of give and take but the approach taken by Senator Cormann speaks volumes for him. As it is very late, I seek leave to table the rest of my contribution so we can move on.
Political he played it as a gentlemen but personally he felt differently. Why otherwise the connect and resign in such manner.
I thought that I had a rather interesting response to a Twitter message of Jason Clare in which he aimed at Pauline Hanson on Islamic immigrants. It was not so much about what Jason or Pauline said on the issue, it was what Jason expected from Pauline.
He portrayed that Pauline should talk to the AFP Commissioner as she was not helping them fighting terrorism.
I was not so interested in that discussion, my approach was entirely different as I asked him why rely on the creditability of the AFP Commissioner when he in fact has shown no creditability or accountability to the NBN AFP Raids. I stated that NBN Co, the AFP and politicians all have creditability issues and I stated that they should take ownership of that problem rather than attacking the cross bench.
Not sure where the two biggest parties want to go with this, but I don't think it is going to work in the eyes of the electorate. Not for NBN Co and its policies, and not for any other problem at hand.
Wonder if conroy wasnt offered a seat on the new nbn senate along with the raids on his office. You can only push shit up a hill for so long before it takes its toll
You can only push shit up a hill for so long before it takes its toll
My point and do you want to do this when you know that you have to face even more government members with butter on their heads. I rather would spend time with my daughter too.
nvm
Good idea but ..
1) I am pretty sure that they run 4 fibres, 2 active to provide 2 Gbps and 2 spare for future growth or upgrades (micronodes)
still pathetic with 384 potential users per node
As noted elsewhere, correct but misleading � it's 1Gbps downstream, 1Gbps upstream, and 2 spare but unterminated. You don't need many people to win NodeLotto to max that out during peak hour � 10-20 premises within ~500m of the node. This is a hard cap on how much CVC RSPs will be willing to purchase, even if CVC becomes really cheap.
but if your point was more about the switching ability then ...
2) I'm not so sure Malcom would agree with that, that basically requires refitting the nodes with 10 Gbps capable switching ... to 70,000 nodes, and then replacing the switching at the POIs. The difference in pricing between 1 Gbps switching and 10 Gbps switching at a retail level is in the order of 10 times its going to significantly impact costs. Hence it hasn't been done from the outset, because CapEx is supposed to be important to this mob.
As I understand it, the nodes already have a 40Gbps backplane and can support 10Gbps optical modules � it's just the optical modules that have been installed that are limited to 1Gbps. Compared to the cost of the node, it's trivial (~$800/node from what I've read).
And I'd be truly stunned if the POIs don't have sufficient switching capability considering the backhaul they're connected to (although it is possible that for the node side they've cheaped out).
So now we have Rod Simms of ACCC saying [ as good as] that print newspapers are so moribund that they can do what the hell they like with mergers; the real dance floor is online media anyway, he says.
Well, that's great Rod. Very happy to see that you value the online world so much. What about dealing with Fraudband while you are at it?
https://twitter.com/PaulBong
From Mr.Bongiorno
As noted elsewhere, correct but misleading � it's 1Gbps downstream, 1Gbps upstream, and 2 spare but unterminated. You don't need many people to win NodeLotto to max that out during peak hour � 10-20 premises within ~500m of the node. This is a hard cap on how much CVC RSPs will be willing to purchase, even if CVC becomes really cheap.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor-
Lets hope that all got fixed in some new node upgrade...
A rush to upgrade each new node :)
Stephen Conroy .... Father of the NBN.
Malcolm Turnbull .... Mother$#@&*! of the NBN.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor
even if nbn� decides to upgrade the network, they will likely continue using copper-based technologies for the years ahead to avoid large capital costs again"
Here's the big reason I get annoyed about anyone supporting FTTN � the 100% waste of money that could have been spent rolling out fibre � which everyone admits is the end game.
Conroy's announcement was sudden and unexpected. I was hearing him on Newsradio Parliament during the afternoon, and he used up all his allotted time before the Speaker told him his time has expired, and Conroy said, "I haven't even gotten started", or something similar. There was no hint of him exiting then and he sounded fully engaged. Yet within a few hours he announced he was chucking it in.
Malcolm Turnbull .... Mother$#@&*! of the NBN.
As noted elsewhere, correct but misleading � it's 1Gbps downstream, 1Gbps upstream, and 2 spare but unterminated. You don't need many people to win NodeLotto to max that out during peak hour � 10-20 premises within ~500m of the node. This is a hard cap on how much CVC RSPs will be willing to purchase, even if CVC becomes really cheap.
The uplink ports are pluggable optics and could be poplulated with full duplex on single fibre SFPs. So the initial fibre deployment would seem to be capped at 4Gbps full-duplex. 7 or 8Gbps full-duplex if more fibre is pulled in or some tens of Gbps with a controller board upgrade to support 10G uplinks.
As I understand it, the nodes already have a 40Gbps backplane and can support 10Gbps optical modules � it's just the optical modules that have been installed that are limited to 1Gbps. Compared to the cost of the node, it's trivial (~$800/node from what I've read).
And I'd be truly stunned if the POIs don't have sufficient switching capability considering the backhaul they're connected to (although it is possible that for the node side they've cheaped out).
You may be right, but my understanding is that 10G uplinks requires a fabric upgrade.
Still, the design docs state that, while the node *could* be used to support 374 subscribers, the design goal is for ~200 subscribers per node. Furthermore, the design philosophy seems to be to start with minimum config and upgrade as CVC is bought. In my experience this is the most efficient way to do it *assuming* that you have the processes and procedures to upgrade capacity in a timely manner. There are many issues with FTTN, but I think it is safe to say that node congestion, aside from unexpected ramps, will not turn out to be one of them. Contention ratios can be kept within best practice right up to 200 subscribers with 50/20 even without fabric upgrades or added fibre. The problems will be with sync rates and CVC congestion � and the CVC congestion problem is not confined to FTTN.
You may be right, but my understanding is that 10G uplinks requires a fabric upgrade
Part of the problem is the nodes connect back to the FAN and the FAN only has redundant 10/10 gbps fibre links back to the POI.
This makes upgrading nodes to 10 gbps expensive!
Still, the design docs state that, while the node *could* be used to support 374 subscribers, the design goal is for ~200 subscribers per node.
Hmm its certainly a topic of concern on the face of it.
Although if the ISPs are averaging 1 mbps over their subscriber base at the moment during peak time then perhaps over 200-300 subscribers you won't have much problem with 1gbps nodes at the moment.
Contention ratios can be kept within best practice right up to 200 subscribers with 50/20
The 2 fibres are aggregated, so its up/down afaik.
2000Mbps / 200 = (I know its tricky maths here) .... 10Mbps each
that's still under both the minimum AND the coexistence minimum. So assuming omse uploading as well, then it comes down again.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue.
It makes it impossible to supply 1:1 contention business plans.
It makes it impossible to supply 1:1 contention business plans
It makes it a clusterflap!
There are many issues with FTTN, but I think it is safe to say that node congestion, aside from unexpected ramps, will not turn out to be one of them.
+1
14.3(b) of this document still applies:
http://www.nbnco.com
The problems will be with sync rates and CVC congestion � and the CVC congestion problem is not confined to FTTN.
Precisely.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue.
I don't get why people think this is an issue.
Netflix have a new splash screen for Australia
I don't get why people think this is an issue.
because they have provisioned a service that cannot achieve their minimum guarantees
Just saying
"There wont be an issue, trust me'
does not hold up against the cold hard facts.
Thank you djos. I don't recall seeing that one. Very apt.
I see Steve Baxter has come out of the woodwork and showing his true colours on twitter.
Replies to anyone who comments "ever built a fibre network?!?" "Here's a link to my article!"
https://www.linkedi
Where Steve can only make valid points on the single argument he brings up in his article.
"If the goal is �to have fast internet� then we are missing the bigger picture"
No.
NBNs goal is deliver Australia's first national wholesale-only, open access broadband network to all Australians.
Not deliver a private fibre network to a handful of people.
Can anyone say whether the special fibre that is laid on to politician's electorate offices or to schools, in areas that have not had NBN fibre rolled out, is NBN or are business plans?
My reason for asking is that if they are business plans, not only do the politicians' electoral offices have fibre ahead of anyone else, they have it without all that contention trouble that NBN fibre users have to live with.
Can anyone say whether the special fibre that is laid on to politician's electorate offices or to schools, in areas that have not had NBN fibre rolled out, is NBN or are business plans?
It's Telstra fibre.
http://www.smh.com.au/
Edit: the quote is hilarious � Telstra thought MTM was such a good idea that they wanted to get rid of it, until Mal came along and wanted to pay them billions...
A DPS spokeswoman said it was Telstra's idea to upgrade electorate offices from a mixture of copper, satellite and cable to fibre-optic cable.
''Having a fibre-optic infrastructure supporting the connectivity to each electorate office allows the bandwidth or network speeds to increase without being limited by the cabling infrastructure,'' the spokeswoman said.
I see Steve Baxter has come out of the woodwork and showing his true colours on twitter.
Replies to anyone who comments "ever built a fibre network?!?" "Here's a link to my article!"
This article has actually been mentioned several times already, and was also linked to on Delimiter. It was posted by Steve in April. He does make a lot of good points though, especially in regards to speed tiers. They need to go. Sure, the MTM (specifically FTTN, aka "Nodelotto") makes it difficult to ensure that everyone could get the same speeds, but it's better than paying for a 100/40 plan, and only getting something like 65/27, which doesn't make dropping down the to 50/20 plan quite worthwhile, but paying for a speed you can't achieve is even less so.
especially in regards to speed tiers. They need to go. Sure, the MTM (specifically FTTN,
We dont have them on ADSL2+, so why bring them back with FTTN?
Exactly...
Then it's extremely unlikely that all connections will be fully utilized at the same time. Consumer behaviour varies across the timescale with different activities with varying bandwidth requirements, and varying bandwidth capacity at the premise.
I agree with this
I don't. If all the above varies so much then congestion on any network would not be as prevalent and common as it currently is. There is always huge bandwidth demand increases around the time kids get home from school and after dinner when people sit down to browse the net, play games and watch streaming video of some sort.
Due to school and work hours for the majority of the population this is not going to change any time soon.
but it's better than paying for a 100/40 plan, and only getting something like 65/27, which doesn't make dropping down the to 50/20 plan quite worthwhile, but paying for a speed you can't achieve is even less so
perhaps we can all install a small raspberry pi tpe computer to constantly monitor our bandwidth and at the end of the month we can average it out and pay "up to $100(or whatever the price of the plan is)"
if you only achieve an average of 60/25 on your 100/40 plan you only pay 61% of the 100 dollars a month you are supposed to pay for the 100/40 plan
pay "up to $100(or whatever the price of the plan is)"
Up to 100/40 Up to $100pm
Up to 50/20 Up to $50pm
Up to 50/10 Up to $40pm (useful for HFC where upload is likely prone to more congestion)
Up to 25/5 Up to $25pm
Up to 12/1 Up to $12.50pm
That seems much fairer.
Up to 100/40 Up to $100pm
Up to 50/20 Up to $50pm
Up to 50/10 Up to $40pm (useful for HFC where upload is likely prone to more congestion)
Up to 25/5 Up to $25pm
Up to 12/1 Up to $12.50pm
That seems much fairer.
Up to 100/40 Up to $100pm
Up to 50/20 Up to $50pm
Up to 25/5 Up to $25pm
The 2 fibres are aggregated, so its up/down afaik.
Correct, one fibre in, one out.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue
Cause simple maths is beyond their intellectual capacity.
It makes it impossible to supply 1:1 contention business plans
Correct.
I�m a long time lurker of this thread (read every page), and have come to the realisation that there is a lot of valuable information in this thread that the general public is unaware of.
Instead of just elevating our blood pressure on Whingepool, we as a community should attempt to educate the general public on the deficiencies of the MTM.
Why don't some of our more knowledgeable posters collaborate and put together a fact sheet to send to and educate the new NBN Joint Standing Committee members? (or even every member of Parliament?)
Spell out how NZ can do FTTP for nearly a third of the cost per premises figures given by NBN.
Explain why FTTN is a dead end street and effectively a waste of taxpayers money.
Detail how a node is bandwidth limited to 2Gbps shared between up to 384 users, compared to FTTP (currently 1Gbps, but more easily upgradeable to 10Gbps and beyond to 43000Gbps) fibre shared between only 32 users.
Include speed charts showing how FTTN connection speeds drop off markedly after a couple of hundred metres. etc, etc, etc ��.
Send it to all the newspapers, spoon feed the journos a story where the research has already been done for them.
Send it to the ABC to be fact checked. Maybe 4 corners might be interested in doing a story on it.
Start a petition on Get-Up.
If we as a community can get the truth out there we may be able get public opinion on our side, as lost votes for LNP is the only way to halt this FTTN madness.
Thank you djos. I don't recall seeing that one. Very apt
It does a great job of exposing the stupidity of MtM.
''Having a fibre-optic infrastructure supporting the connectivity to each electorate office allows the bandwidth or network speeds to increase without being limited by the cabling infrastructure,'' the spokeswoman said.
Ridiculous. Really they don't get to know what it's like for other nearby businesses and company's to be stuck on copper trying to do the same things (I.e Video conferencing)
I don't know how to put this but i'll do my best � Because most politicians couldn't tell the difference between copper and Fibre when it comes to internet connections most of not all(?) will say you'll be able to do Video conferencing just fine on your connection. But we can't as the connection is poor and the speed / bandwidth isn't able to keep up with the application.
Good idea to scrap the up to 12/1 Speed Tier.
+1 for this, (and I hate to say it) but if anything goes wrong with Skymuster then it would be good to have 12/1 as a back up but 25/5 should be the minimum speed (At least with they way things are with FTTN being here and what not)
especially in regards to speed tiers. They need to go.
That will simply show how unequal the NBN is between the various technologies as some simply cannot support high speeds.
Breaking news, Stephen Conroy resigned.
And there goes any hope that the new committiee will scrutinize this flapping mess.
the government is so out of touch not understanding that between middle aged users on netflix and high bandwidth usage gaming (im also a gamer) and kids smashing free game downloads, big mods and youtubing like crazy means the nbn is screwed before its finished.
That sums up just what it looks like. But there may be a bit more to it, if we look at some of the people, and the detail, behind the facade of endless PR spin.
The person responsible for aborting NBN and imposing the dire MTM was described by a colleague as 'Having practically invented the Internet.'
A most unlikely claim; but we must assume he would, or should, have known FTTP-based NBN was the only way our future needs could be met. Despite this, he wilfully went ahead and killed off NBN on the flimsiest political rationale.
Adding insult to injury, they still assert only 'gamers, gamblers and pron freaks' would use/need NBN capabilities over the rest of this century � an assertion so stupid it answers itself.
Steven Conroy's future contributions to shaping the Federal Coalition NBN/MTM policy.
Take your pick.
(a) Board member of NBNCo
(b) Board member of Telstra
(c.) Director of a Frank Buijc owned entity
(d) Whirlpool NBN thread troll-slayer
(e) Sky News Live Political Commentator
(a) Board member of NBNCo
But, but � Malcolm only appoints the right people to his charades organisations! :-P
flimsiest political rationale.
Politics comes first. Wants and needs comes last.
Adding insult to injury, they still assert only 'gamers, gamblers and pron freaks' would use/need NBN capabilities over the rest of this century
Agreed, they are stubborn and blind. Look we have told them too much that it isn't just for streaming but having the ability to work from home for instance and access your content faster without having to get the sh*ts waiting and go elsewhere. If FTTH had been kept imagine what Australia would be like for good now?
Work from home � Depending on what the job is you'll would of been working from home and that means fewer vehicles on the road because everyone isn't in a rush to get to and from work. Working from home means that you wouldn't have to leave your home to go to work and you would be in your own space without having to put up with your workers for the day.
(Okay entertainment factor here but hear me on this) You want a movie but don't want to head to the movie store or the supermarket. Guess what? You can stream it without leaving the comfort of your home so you won't have to get in a car. head to the shops and come back just for the movie. Just pick up the TV remote, get comfy on the couch, choose a streaming app of your choice and pay for membership and find the movie and your good to go.
Work becomes more efficient? Ah this is a good one, being faster means work will be done faster right? Perhaps and probably so. Seeing that upload meter go from 42:31 to something around 2:30 (2 mins, 30 seconds) means you'll get your work uploaded quicker and won't have to pace around the PC every x amount of minuets to check on the upload time. Guess what? Thanks to that quicker upload speed you'll have more time to meet the deadline if your client or yourself doesn't like something and wants changers. Compared to older technology where it's back to 42 minuets:31 seconds all over again just to fix a simple change. There won't also be much uploading happening overnight either so you won't have to leave your PC on to upload files overnight anymore which means your power costs will be reduced by a bit.
what im saying is that the government is so out of touch not understanding that between middle aged users on netflix and high bandwidth usage gaming (im also a gamer) and kids smashing free game downloads, big mods and youtubing like crazy means the nbn is screwed before its finished.
Those are all pleasure things.
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite where the Labor satellites they ordered are so small in capacity that the users on it can only dream of what other on fttn can do. Well a few complained, but they were quickly told where to go.
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite
Just remember Mate. Turnbull Wanted those satellites scrapped too. So he's just as bad.
They (The people on them) can thank themselves lucky that their SAT wasn't scrapped in the end. if Mal had the dummy he's way he would of cut and scrapped them without fuss.
(c.) Director of a Frank Buijc owned entity
LOL, CVs can be sent for the time being to our head office. It is for sale, too much maintenance. Only 25m euro. First owner Fritz Philips. Yes, from the globes. And whatever you do, don't forget to watch the video. :P
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite
Perhaps you have a somewhat limited, or selective, memory on that topic.
From opposition, Malcolm Turnbull complained endlessly, and inaccurately, about every aspect of the NBN Co satellite program. It was a different story once he was minister, when he was fond of talking about the coming nbn� sats as if they had been all his own idea.
If the HFC is a ClusterFlap what term will they use for nbn�'s (mis)management of the sub-sub-contracting arrangements for satellite dish installations.
http://www.zdnet.com/article
In news just to hand .......... dit,dit, d, dit, dit ...... apparently Bill Morrow has put through an order for kilometres of more new copper to be purchased to enable each home owner's satellite dish to be connected directly to Sky Muster. Initially nbn� will be trialling just one outback station home for this new Copper from the Satellite Dish to the Satellite (CftSDttS).
It is rumoured that Senator Conroy goy wind of this through a leak from nbn� yesterday, threw his hands up in disgust and said "That's the last straw .... I'm resigning!"
And whatever you do, don't forget to watch the video. :P
Watch the video! You're kidding. The front page took 45 seconds to load. I'd be buffering all night trying to watch a video from that site!
The 2 fibres are aggregated, so its up/down afaik.
That makes sense. If it was me I'd certainly be installing up/down optics day 1.
2000Mbps / 200 = (I know its tricky maths here) .... 10Mbps each
that's still under both the minimum AND the coexistence minimum. So assuming omse uploading as well, then it comes down again.
I don't get why people don't think this is an issue.
Because it is not an issue. If every one of those 200 users had purchased the 50/20 tier then that would give you a 5:1 peak contention ratio which is actually *good*. Gold plated even for residential broadband. This is not going to be the bottleneck. Now if it was 20:1 then I'd be more concerned....
Because it is not an issue. If every one of those 200 users had purchased the 50/20 tier
and just 40 of them tried to use it at the same time, then the network would be congested.
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite where the Labor satellites they ordered are so small in capacity
the satellites were supposed to handle a frasction of the traffic that has already been dumped onto them
I can not recall any person complaining about the NBN satellite where the Labor satellites they ordered are so small in capacity that the users on it can only dream of what other on fttn can do.
What you seem to be missing are the facts that Turnbull opposed the building of the satellites at all, that he is pushing extra premises from the fixed line footprint to the satellite footprint increasing the load, and that it was nbn� under Turnbull who set the FUP, not NBNCo under Labor.
and just 40 of them tried to use it at the same time, then the network would be congested.
And sure, if that happened on any kind of a regular basis, you would have a problem. But it never does. Access networks are always designed with contention. Just as the roads are not designed to carry every vehicle that is registered at the same time.
Watch the video! You're kidding. The front page took 45 seconds to load. I'd be buffering all night trying to watch a video from that site!
Yeah, I suppose it is made for proper broadband speeds commonly found in innovative and agile countries.
If the HFC is a ClusterFlap what term will they use for nbn�'s (mis)management of the sub-sub-contracting arrangements for satellite dish installations.
but Skymuster seems to have created lots of call centre spots in RSPs
jobs and growth
http://www.totaltele.com/view.aspx?ID=494978
Total telecom pick up on conroys exit
Reports coming in that Stephen Conroy has resigned from senate for retirement
:( When he first started out, he was cluelessly going to put a "filter" on internet against tech advice � this changed as he took on the role of promoting the mostly FTTP version of NBN. And he became more WP aware.
Miss him already.
Miss him already.
If he reads this, thanks for the fibre to the premises internet box that is in this room. Has never dropped out once. Have done downloads and uploads with it in a few months that I never did in 10 years of ADSL. Australia will get fibre to the premises internet as a common thing. The first fleet gendarmes didn't want the convict populace to get anything. They opposed copper phone lines in about 1910. They opposed sewered homes. They opposed Medibank. They oppose anything for the people Downton Abbey style. But in the end FTTP will still happen.
Because most politicians couldn't tell the difference between copper and Fibre when it comes to internet connections most of not all(?) will say you'll be able to do Video conferencing just fine on your connection.
However, the really ironic part is that all politicians have Fibre to their offices because copper doesn't cut it for their needs.
Australia will get fibre to the premises internet as a common thing.
But we may get it much later than most countries.
We can test that message.
(And yes we can test the bits vs bytes nomenclature)
To use it, not to build i
That pays for it
Just another thought you know 25mbps does not mean 25MBps right?
stay posted :)
so do users that order a 100Mbps instead of a 12 or 25Mbps one ...
Yep. This is a problem.
If only there was a way to stream high-quality video to a remote device, he'd have got to see his daughter's soccer-playing...
But in the end FTTP will still happen
I want it to happen in my lifetime where i can actaully use it for something and not for an hour when i get home before i feel like i should sleep lol
And sure, if that happened on any kind of a regular basis, you would have a problem. But it never does. Access networks are always designed with contention. Just as the roads are not designed to carry every vehicle that is registered at the same time.
Well, those on congested services would disagree with "But it never does".
Optical fibre to the premises is a game-changer because of its data carrying capacity. Dedicated bandwidth e.g. for live streaming (and no-one has mentioned multi-cast over NBN lately) wouldn't require more fibres in the access networks of FTTP areas, just something better than the current pricing arrangements.
Not NBN directly but it relates to how BT in the UK deal with cabinets that reach capacity, which I guess will eventually happen to NBN nodes -
Also NBN love to spout lab copper results, I see they didn't post this on their "blog" about fibre lab results -
https://fossbytes.com/nokia-
They must have accidently missed it :)
Just another thought you know 25mbps does not mean 25MBps right?
Wish there was a clearer convention, MB vs mb is easily confused.
Wish there was a clearer convention, MB vs mb is easily confused.
Why would there be any confusion between mbps and MBps? S/
Why would there be any confusion between mbps and MBps? S/
Technically it's Mbps and MBps. I like the confusion, helps separate out the people with knowledge on tech. Makes it easy to ignore articles when they mix it up
I like the confusion, helps separate out the people with knowledge on tech.
Ahhhh ..... technical snobbery. ;) You're probably a prolific user of TLAs in conversation I presume.
Amusing and ironic to see this article plastered with ads on the side that state
Find out more > nbn� bring it on
And the author of the article can't do better than raise rubbish about 'legends'.
According to political legend, Conroy � unable to pin down then prime minister Rudd to an office appointment � arranged to travel with Rudd on a VIP flight in early 2009. High in the air, he and Rudd are said to have mapped out an early iteration of the NBN on the back of a paper napkin.
But don't let facts get in the way of a MSM article.
https://delimiter.co
s/ What an esteemed journalist Tony Wright proves himself to be! s/
Ahhhh ..... technical snobbery. ;) You're probably a prolific user of TLAs in conversation I presume.
Well, if one is going to talk tech, may as well get it right so that people understand the metrics being discussed. An argument about MB as opposed to an argument about Mb would each have different outcomes in the one context.
Well, if one is going to talk tech, may as well get it right so that people understand the metrics being discussed.
Ahhh I think you miss my point. Who could disagree with accuracy. I completely agree that we get things right so that people understand the issue being discussed. A common sense position on your part.
I was addressing the comment in the post that I like the confusion, helps separate out the people with knowledge on tech.
How does the promotion of confusion assist people's understanding of issues?
Is Malcolm Turnbull going to make G.Fast and XG.Fast work over this copper infrastructure?
http://delimiter.com.au/2012
1 Gbps speed?
But don't let facts get in the way of a MSM article.
Facts (as I remember them):
- 2005/6 Telstra offered to build FTTN but the conditions attached were so appalling the government could not agree.
- 2006 the G9 perpetrated the massive con that they could build FTTN without paying Telstra to acquire the copper
- 2007 both the Coalition and Labor fell for the G9 con and started RFPs for companies other than Telstra to bid to build FTTN. RFPs that were bound to fail.
- 2009 Labor woke up to reality and realised it was FTTP or nothing but didn't follow any known process to determine how to build it. The Coalition was in 'oppose everything' mode so it all became 'political'.
- 2013 Turnbull said he "wouldn't start from here". No one asked him where in that history he would have started and what he would have done. We know what he did when he did "start from here".
Close?
Why did the G9 get off so lightly for all the damage and delays they caused?
Why did Labor do a RFP for a $4.7bn project but not for a $30.4bn project?
Why did the Coalition let Turnbull try to implement his crazy policy?
Well, those on congested services would disagree with "But it never does".
Optical fibre to the premises is a game-changer because of its data carrying capacity. Dedicated bandwidth e.g. for live streaming (and no-one has mentioned multi-cast over NBN lately) wouldn't require more fibres in the access networks of FTTP areas, just something better than the current pricing arrangements.
Well, never is a long time. There will always be the potential incidents like the Victoria's Secret launch that cause a spike. However, no carrier ever dimensions for those spikes. If they did, the service would be unaffordable. A 5:1 contention ratio in the node is still a pretty gold-plated contention ratio.
In this particular scenario, fibre/copper makes no difference. The contention ratio for nodes is identical to that for much of the FTTH network. And it doesn't even come into play because the CVC contention ratios are significantly higher. 2011 design docs allow up to 50:1 contention ratio for domestic broadband services and 10:1 for business services, which, even allowing for the bundling advantage of a larger number customers/POI than /node, will completely swamp node congestion. Congestion will show up in the POI long before it shows up in the node.
2007 both the Coalition and Labor fell for the G9 con and started RFPs for companies other than Telstra to bid to build FTTN.
No, Telstra could have submitted a bid to the RFP � they chose not to.
2009 Labor woke up to reality and realised it was FTTP or nothing but didn't follow any known process to determine how to build it.
No, it was the expert panel assessing the RFP responses that said it should be FTTP or nothing, and there was ample analysis of how to build it (including but not limited to the implementation study).
Why did the G9 get off so lightly for all the damage and delays they caused?
Because nothing like that happened.
Why did Labor do a RFP for a $4.7bn project but not for a $30.4bn project?
Because the outcome of the RFP process is what lead to the NBN project.
Why did the Coalition let Turnbull try to implement his crazy policy?
Because it was Coalition policy.
A 5:1 contention ratio in the node is still a pretty gold-plated contention ratio.
There is no such 5:1 contention ratio in the node.
Congestion will show up in the POI long before it shows up in the node.
How do you know this? Do you imagine that RSPs will have geographic monopolies?
Close?
Why did the G9 get off so lightly for all the damage and delays they caused?
Why did Labor do a RFP for a $4.7bn project but not for a $30.4bn project?
Why did the Coalition let Turnbull try to implement his crazy policy?
Pretty close. I would add interstitially:
After the 2005/6 and RFP debacles, it became apparent to Conroy that the only way to solve the problem was complete structural separation, which is a hard call. If you follow the logic through:
Structural separation ---> compulsory
compulsory ---> It has to be free to the consumer or it won't get up
Free to the consumer -----> very expensive whichever way you do it.
very expensive ---> means you have to have a "great leap forward" or it won't get up
"great leap forward" ------> all-fibre network.
So the political logic forced the proposal of a "big bang" fibring up of the nation paid for entirely out of tax revenues which is actually economic insanity. But the same logic has also been followed (rather better, arguably) in New Zealand. If it isn't politically possible, then it isn't possible however much people whinge on Whirlpool or spread memes on Facebook.
So we were sold a pony or perhaps even a unicorn. So far props to Conroy, because he got a big and necessary (but politically difficult) project up. But the problem was that the price and delivery timescale for the pony were horrendously underestimated initially. Whether this was part of the political selling process or due to bad advice being given to the minister, we may never know. My suspicion is a bit of both. There seems to be an element of assuming that greenfield and brownfield FTTP come at a similar cost. And maybe they would if an aerial fibre approach were politically feasible. But under a buried fibre approach they are not. (Maybe FTTdp and skinny fibre can fix that somewhat?).
BUT once the pony has been sold and the contract signed, you can start to chop off its legs and argue that it is the same pony. Politically, you can only do this early in a term, which is what happened when Labor lost power. Enter the MTM. A technically somewhat inferior but economically far more palatable solution which has the added advantage of achieving full structural separation which is what the exercise has been about all along significantly sooner.
Looking at the latest rollout numbers, it seems to me that NBNco is on track to achieve structural separation by the required date. Now political advantage can be gained by actually putting legs back on the pony. Hopefully we will see some of that. I am expecting to see currently FTTN areas slated for FTTdp. For more sparsely-settled areas like outer suburbs it should even be cheaper than FTTN.
We can test that message.
(And yes we can test the bits vs bytes nomenclature)
You're a writer, a communicator, who specializes in technology, especially internet technology, yet somehow you have no idea how to reply (I assume you are replying and it's not some random brain infarction) to someone (I assume) pages ago (because I can't see what this post relates to), and have it make sense. How can you be an expert writing technology and the internet yet seemingly have the abilities of complete novice when it comes to using it?
Wish there was a clearer convention, MB vs mb is easily confused.
There is, because people don't know/use it doesn't mean there isn't one.
Upper case "B" means BYTES, a lower case "b" means BITS.
Upper case "M" prefix means MEGA (million), a lower case "m" prefix means MILLI (1/1000th)
In the telecoms industry speed is rated in "bits per second" no matter how large a number it is, that's the convention, it is never rated in "bytes per second" so it is always "bps" and as they are talking about sending thousands, millions, billions etc of bits, it is always an upper case prefix such as Mbps for mega bits per second.
So saying 25 mbps you are saying 25 milli bits per second (or 25 thousandths of a bit per second) which is 1 billion times less than 25 Mbps (25 million bits per second) or if you say 25MBps you are actually saying 200 Mbps (since a byte is equal to 8 bits).
Just because people don't know there is a difference or don't use it cos they've always seen an application refer to a "file transfer" in speeds of MBps (since files are measured in bytes not bits applications would typically measure the transfer speed of the file in bytes per second) so then use that same convention when they talk about a communications link does not mean that there is not a clear convention, just that it isn't being used.
How do you know this? Do you imagine that RSPs will have geographic monopolies?
30 years designing access and core networks and some time spent researching in the field of teletraffic engineering.
Not to mention just reading the design documents and the specs on the equipment being used.
The guy finally tells me that FTTN cant be upgraded to any higher than 25Mbps.
Telstra telling people that 25/5 Mbps is all they will sell on FTTN
whrl.pl/ReIv8y
Guess that is another reason that people are only "choosing" 25/5 Mbps plans
So the political logic forced the proposal of a "big bang" fibring up of the nation paid for entirely out of tax revenues which is actually economic insanity.
You seem to be ignoring anything that doesn't suit your interpretation of events, not least the fact that it was the independent expert panel who recommended FTTP.
A technically somewhat inferior but economically far more palatable solution
It isn't, as the explosion in cost since the 2013 election has proven.
full structural separation which is what the exercise has been about all along
Where did you get that idea from?
significantly sooner.
Yeah, by the end of their first term in government, right?
Looking at the latest rollout numbers, it seems to me that NBNco is on track to achieve structural separation by the required date.
How? By travelling back in time?
Slightly off topic did they change editing rules? I can't edit previous post from few days ago
Not to mention just reading the design documents and the specs on the equipment being used.
What design documents and specs suggest that RSP usage across a POI will be identical to overall usage on a single node?
Telstra telling people that 25/5 Mbps is all they will sell on FTTN
whrl.pl/ReIv8y
Guess that is another reason that people are only "choosing" 25/5 Mbps plans
So much of this bullshit going on.
May parents live out in the country and are about 4km from the exchange. Unfortunately, they have a pairgain in their copper loop because back in 2001 when they built the house they ordered/were sold an ISDN connection.
Ever since ADSL came to town, they were told they could not have ADSL because of the pairgain. (which incidentally is no longer necessary because the ISDN service was discontinued years ago). So of course they have had to put up with a 3G mobile broadband connection with a 16GB/month cap for ferocious dollars.
In July, Optus put up a 4Gplus tower in town and some pretty decent home wireless broadband plans along with it. Lo and behold Telstra phones them up and says they can have ADSL with a 50GB cap for a more reasonable charge as long as they sign up to a 24-month plan. Did I mention that an NBN fixed wireless tower will go up 5km from them in direct line of sight next Feb?
I wasn't there in time to say "don't sign that Mum!", so now they are locked into Telstra for 24 months on a 1.2Mbps DSL connection. Yes, they can upgrade to NBN when it comes, but only with Telstra of course now. GRRRR.
Ironically, they are happy as clams because 1.2Mbps is fast enough for what they do and the 16GB cap was the problem, not the speed.
Slightly off topic did they change editing rules? I can't edit previous post from few days ago
Have a read through this thread from here (whrl.pl/ReIqBJ) and/or maybe post your query there.
Have a read through this thread from here (whrl.pl/ReIqBJ) and/or maybe post your query there.
Thanks
Lo and behold Telstra phones them up and says they can have ADSL with a 50GB cap for a more reasonable charge as long as they sign up to a 24-month plan. Did I mention that an NBN fixed wireless tower will go up 5km from them in direct line of sight next Feb?
Are you suggesting that Telstra are using unscrupulous practices to lock in customers to long term contracts with their organisation before the NBN is rolled out in the area. Wash your mouth out with a copper sulphate solution!
What design documents and specs suggest that RSP usage across a POI will be identical to overall usage on a single node?
Statistics will give you a probability of any particular node being any given quantum "out of whack". Decades of experience tells us that a 5:1 contention ratio in the access and aggregation layer is perfectly fine. Most xDSL networks run considerably hotter.
Design documents going back to 2011 specify a maximum CVC/AVC contention ratio of 50:1 for residential services and 10:1 for business services. That completely swamps the node contention ratio � i.e. the node contention ratio does not contribute to congestion at these levels. This has been borne out in the FTTN deployments to date. And there are processes and procedures in place to upgrade any nodes (there will be a few) that run hotter than expected.
Are you suggesting that Telstra are using unscrupulous practices to lock in customers to long term contracts with their organisation before the NBN is rolled out in the area?
Hell no.
Because it is not an issue. If every one of those 200 users had purchased the 50/20 tier then that would give you a 5:1 peak contention ratio which is actually *good*. Gold plated even for residential broadband. This is not going to be the bottleneck. Now if it was 20:1 then I'd be more concerned....
There is comments from Paul Rees within the Skymesh thread that this IS and issue. NBNco can have congestion on theirs side
Here is just one reference to that possibility whrl.pl/ReIvDO
You want some assurance that an upgrade will included more bandwidth? Yes, I can give you that assurance, however if the congestion is on nbn co's network between your home and the Penrith POI, then that's not something that we can fix.
This is clearly can or does exist
Statistics will give you a probability of any particular node being any given quantum "out of whack".
What multi-provider network (with a mix of "budget" and "premium" providers) have you analysed the statistics of?
Decades of experience tells us that a 5:1 contention ratio in the access and aggregation layer is perfectly fine.
What 5:1 contention ratio are you referring to? These nodes are up to 38.4:1.
Design documents going back to 2011 specify a maximum CVC/AVC contention ratio of 50:1 for residential services and 10:1 for business services.
Please cite this.
And there are processes and procedures in place to upgrade any nodes (there will be a few) that run hotter than expected.
I'm sure the same was true for Telstra street cabinets also...
Slightly off topic did they change editing rules? I can't edit previous post from few days ago
Cick on 'Reply to this post'. Go to the URL at the top of the screen and change "reply&r" to "edit&e". You can now edit the post.
What 5:1 contention ratio are you referring to? These nodes are up to 38.4:1.
No they ain't. With 200 subscribers (the design number) per node in day 1 configuration, if everyone orders the 50/20 tier then it is 5:1. In fact, it looks as if people can only get 25/5 which would make it 2.5:1 but it is dangerous to assume that because when you force subscribers down to a tier they don't want to be at, they naturally use more of that tier than they would if they were on the tier they wanted.
Please cite this.
How about you get on google and have a look for yourself? You are the one who seems to want to know. BTW RSPs who choose to have 50:1 CVC/AVC contention will be giving a very shitty service. But there seem to plenty out there doing it, or even worse.
No they ain't.
Yes, they absolutely are � potentially 384 "up to 100 megabits/sec" connections sharing 1000 megabits/sec backhaul.
the design number is meaningless when they have to place the nodes based on the copper in the ground.
How about you get on google and have a look for yourself?
You made the claim � it is up to you to substantiate it.
With 200 subscribers (the design number) per node in day 1 configuration
problem is that the design number is being taken as an average
just take this ADA, day 1 design https://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/rollout/2WOY-06
whilst the average is 205 there is a great variation between individual nodes
there are nodes in the 2Woy area that have over 300 connections
this one https://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/ada/2WOY-02-10 has 322
Yes, they absolutely are � potentially 384 "up to 100 megabits/sec" connections sharing 1000 megabits/sec backhaul.
You can invent any fictitious scenario you like I guess. However, the design rules do state approximately 200 subscribers per node. I've seen reports of up to about 40 more or less, but in no case is 384 a "thing". Similarly, we'll never see a case within the next few years where every subscriber will order 100Mbps access. In fact, at the moment it seems you can't order it. See the other threads. In fact, the average tier is well less than 50/20, so the contention ratio is actually better than 5:1 in current deployments, regardless of what could possibly be the case in some armchair commentator's fevered imagination. To dimension according to reality seemed to be the best practice last time I looked.
As to the 1vs2 Gbps backhaul, I haven't been privileged to look inside the nodes, but if you google yourself up a copy of the 2015 design rules, they say:
Currently, 4 x Point to Point fibres will be provided for each DSLAM.
Out of the 4 x Point to Point fibres, the equipment requires 2 x Uplink Fibres which are connected through to the Aggregation switch in the NBN Co Network. The additional 2 x Point to Point fibres are spares, to allow flexibility for future growth or migration activities.
Then if you look at the picture below that, they show the link from the DSLAM to the AAS as being Nx1GE, N<=4. This suggests one by GE link per fibre using full-duplex over single-fibre optics. That limitation (N<=4) has to come from the fibre count, because the devices can support up to 8x1GE uplinks if enough fibre is available. Others on this forum who are closer to it than I have also said that the optics being used are single-fibre, full-duplex as well. It would be an insane waste of fibre not to.
So it is a 2000Mbps uplink, not a 1000Mbps uplink. Upgradable to 4000Mbps by purchase of 4 SFPs and populating a couple of ports in the AAS.
Whichever way you slice it, congestion will not be in the node and is highly unlikely to be in the AAS. It will be at the POI where AVC meets CVC. Greenfield FTTH TFANS actually have a higher potential contention ratio, but they won't be a congestion point either.
Even if you don't live in Greenwood the actions from petition will hopefully address the non-sensical roll-out of the NBN and if successful sets a precedence for the NBN.co to reconsider the roll-out primarily based on requirement and not on any other factors. Let me rather not start discussing what is my opinion on the current roll-out
At least you have a date, Edgewater ("E" on my broadband) had a 3 Year Plan date of starting FTTN this quarter and at the last minute it was cancelled due "unforeseen delays with another project" and not only that they now have no date in mind.
Don't know what's going on as I can see no technical or Engineering reason why it cannot go ahead as planned and there is even an NBN fibre leg from Ocean reef road 200 odd meters into the suburb. The area next to the Lake Joondalup/Yellalonga Park is ideal for rolling out fibre and the route to the Wangara POI (which is active) is 90% flat Yellalonga Park bushland and also easy to lay cable.
I think what is happening they are cancelling Kingsley HFC and doing FTTN instead. Possibly the same for Woodvale which also has dissappeared from the3 year plan.
Why they are rolling out current HFC and close to exchange suburbs first I have no idea and ignoring the SOE re poorly served we'll probablynever know but one way or another I bet its "political".
So it is a 2000Mbps uplink, not a 1000Mbps uplink.
bull dust, 2 fibres are connected, they are in individual uplink and downlink fibres, the capacity is 1Gbps up and 1 Gbps down.
They are not using them as 2 bi-directional fibres
Then if you look at the picture below that, they show the link from the DSLAM to the AAS as being Nx1GE, N<=4. This suggests one by GE link per fibre using full-duplex over single-fibre optics.
Except if you look at the photos of what is actually being built it clearly shows two fibres per SFP, I think the reality trumps NBN Co's laughably ambiguous drawing.
Why would they do this? Because all they care about is building it the cheapest way possible, even if the difference was only a few hundred dollars out of a $250k+ node build per site.
That limitation (N<=4) has to come from the fibre count, because the devices can support up to 8x1GE uplinks if enough fibre is available. Others on this forum who are closer to it than I have also said that the optics being used are single-fibre, full-duplex as well. It would be an insane waste of fibre not to.
Sure if they deploy dual NT configured in Active/Active redundancy mode, which they are not. The larger nodes that might require the additional capacity have not spare slots in the chassis for the second NT.
Having said that, it probably makes sense to switch to 10GE SFP anyway rather than add a second NT as the redundancy would most likely be wasted with the updated network design.
They are not using them as 2 bi-directional fibres
This is evidenced by the simple fact the two fibres are connected to a single SFP.
The problem is people who have been involved in building networks before can't get their heads around how "cheap and nasty" NBN Co have gone with the MTM.
Some interesting comments about what could be done. The results a few HD ready devices per account will have on copper internet.
Has much changed about the mentioned hard limit? The later upgrade fix?
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor-
https://delimiter.com.au/201
https://delimiter.com.au/201
New ideas about actual backhaul in use per node? What the equipment might support is great but what was installed?
Thx.
Hmm, I find this surprising given the docs and common sense, but I'll take your word on it, at least until I can get a look inside a real production node for myself. I've been trying to find photos, but have yet to find one with the resolution to tell for sure.
Sales literature found online shows a set of options depending on what is requested.
What is been done with the node network or what will the upgrade path per node be?
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor
https://delimiter.com.au/20
https://delimiter.com.au/20
The jxeeno blog is remarkably untouched by the ravages of knowledge about traffic engineering. (But it does say that the fibres are used in bidirectional mode � i.e. 2Gbps uplink on day 1.)
The delimiter article was followed up later on the same page with another article saying the issue was resolved by the addition of CVC capacity. The congestion was not in the node, but the POI. RSP issue, not an access issue.
What is been done with the node network or what will the upgrade path per node be?
My bet is that in 2019 one or both parties will come in with a platform to replace all FTTN nodes with some form of fibre service � either FTTdp or FTTH over maybe a 5-year period. They are toast long-term.
So we like that 2Gbps uplink number? A better, newer number to suggest?
So that 2Gbps uplink is shared with how many accounts on average to a round 50?
200? 150? More than 200 expected on average? Some cities could see near a max count per node all using that 2Gbps uplink?
Or has the thinking on the use of that 2Gbps uplink changed?
Edit could be "1 Gbps up and 1 Gbps down". Thx whrl.pl/ReIyqD
So we like that 2Gbps uplink number? A better, newer number to suggest?
I like 2Gbps, but it might in fact be only 1 Gbps on day 1. I am prepared to be disappointed.
So that 2Gbps uplink is shared with how many accounts on average to a round 50?
200? 150? More than 200 expected on average? Some cities could see near a max count per node all using that 2Gbps uplink?
The design parameter coming out of NBNco is "approximately 200 premises per node". I have seen documentation of nodes with as high as 240. Maximum number of ports a node can support is 378 premises. But that doesn't mean there is any intention to max out the node. No doubt it will eventually happen somewhere.
Or has the thinking on the use of that 2Gbps uplink changed?
The jxeeno blog says 2Gbps. NBN doco that I have downloaded implies 2Gbps.
I have seen posts in these forums from people whom I consider to generally know what they are talking about say both 1Gbps and 2Gbps. If you get the chance to look inside a real node see if you can see how many fibres are coming out of the uplink SFPs. :-)
The congestion was not in the node, but the POI. RSP issue, not an access issue.
Of course it was, at that time FTTN had only just gone RFS so there hadn't been time for the Node to get populated for it to be the cause of congestion.
My bet is that in 2019 one or both parties will come in with a platform to replace all FTTN nodes with some form of fibre service � either FTTdp or FTTH over maybe a 5-year period. They are toast long-term.
With what money?
My bet is that in 2019 one or both parties will come in with a platform to replace all FTTN nodes with some form of fibre service � either FTTdp or FTTH over maybe a 5-year period. They are toast long-term.
Hmm no i don't see this happening. Despite them admitting its end game i can see the entire coalition denying any form of changing the NBN unless its to produce more nodes. I bet they'll change their tune coming around 2019 in order to get more voters and then do exactly what they did in 2013. Claim everything on contract and sites going wouldn't be changed and do exactly that.
So we like the 2Gbps uplink number?
Say around 200 accounts using what kind of upload and download at say 5pm till midnight on an average night?
A few users with HD ready devices? Some accounts near the node and getting fast plans, some people been at a great distance and having to select slower plans.
Anyone want to help out on the hard limits given some average usage numbers on an average existing node with that 2Gbps uplink?
@Harry. Once you do a bit of digging you don't even belief the dates that are given. I feel for you guys. Do you get ADSL at the moment? Large chunks of Greenwood does not get ADSL. Those that get complain it is slow (less than 4mbps) and it regularly drops out. Some people can't even get mobile broadband in their home on their devices so they have to put external antennas up. Do you get the new Vividwireless LTE service or at least the old WiMAX service from them. Let me not start with that debacle seeing that this is an NBN thread. If you also can't make sense of the roll-out we should take them to task and the only way we will do it is if we stand together and pose the question(s) and demands through a forum they cannot ignore, hence the reason for the petition.
Hmm, I find this surprising given the docs and common sense, but I'll take your word on it, at least until I can get a look inside a real production node for myself. I've been trying to find photos, but have yet to find one with the resolution to tell for sure.
Do you mean like this? :)
https://drive.google.com/ope
PS: And yes, that is a NBN Co FTTN cabinet. The person that took the photo can choose whether they want to identify themselves though.
Do you mean like this? :)
and as you can see, they have only installed ONE SFP module in the card, there are 3 vacant slots for SFP modules
Maybe the Federal Government wants NBNCo to go really cheap on FTTN, on the basis that whatever they build/spend on FTTN will be of little use when it comes to future needs. So that the cheaper and lower capacity the FTTN, the quicker we will get whatever comes after FTTN. Either from NBNCo or from the Private Sector.
Except if you look at the photos of what is actually being built it clearly shows two fibres per SFP, I think the reality trumps NBN Co's laughably ambiguous drawing.
Why would they do this? Because all they care about is building it the cheapest way possible, even if the difference was only a few hundred dollars out of a $250k+ node build per site.
Exactly, if you think about it from the NBN employees perspective. They called it operation clusterflap from within. If it comes from the top and they want it dirt cheap and shitty. The engineers at the bottom will deliberately design it with the bare minimum at the cheapest cost.
When the original crew were building a nation building infrastructure project to get away from the Telstra monopoly they were enthusiastic. LNP comes along and flaps it up. Some of them still gota work there as it needs to bring money in to pay for bills. At that point it becomes do whatever, they don't care any more. If you want garbage we will give it to you, just make sure their wages are paid. No wonder NBN co/tm under LNP are running out of funds.
If you think people were complaining that speeds can drop to dialup levels during peak hour, this is not an exaggeration, its hidden behind CVC. Most likely to get it this bad is the nodes 1gbps being saturated by 200 premises. Each taking 5mbps, which is not hard in a house hold with multiple members and multiple devices during peak times.
Whichever way you slice it, congestion will not be in the node
And yet NBN Co. admitted at the senate hearings that there could be congestion in the node cabinets, slowing customers' speeds.
Yep. This is a problem.
first you say that customers should pay for what that use, then you say it's wrong to charge more for the better service?
???
Oh I get it � you mean that everybody should pay for the laying of fibre to their place if they want to use it, and then get any speed they want all at the same price ...
Like when they build a road or shopping centre or Telstra 4G tower they bill those people living in the area directly and then let them help themselves with not extra charges to the heavier users? ... Which doesn't actually happen in reality?
You believe in keeping separate the capital costs of building from to cost of providing ongoing resources needed to provide the service? That just isn't always the case. It also doesn't make sense when the cost per user is much more expensive when rolling out to a single individual user at a time vs doing the whole neighbourhood at once.
dgtek will release the future rollout places soon they told me this :
South Canberra and Adelaide plans already submitted for the consideration
the release is on commsday at 5 october :D
In the telecoms industry speed is rated in "bits per second" no matter how large a number it is, that's the convention,
it's the convention because Bytes only really are significant when you store the data in a format that allows you to access individual words or bytes. It's not really meaningful in telecommunications where the bits might never be stored or retrieved as bytes or words, as in when they are generated and read by codecs.
It's like when they quote sales of crude oil in billions of barrels per year, but might say that a pump or pipe can move billions of litres an hour.
if we stand together and pose the question(s) and demands through a forum they cannot ignore, hence the reason for the petition.
WIth you on this and in fact a link to your petition has been put on out local community Facebook site. This site regularly gets complaints about our ADSL which is connected via a cable across Lake Joondalup to Wanneroo exchange , so the fastest anybody theoretically could get would be around 12 Mbs if they are near where the cable comes ashore. However most of the suburb gets around 4 Mb/sec max if they are lucky and a Telstra Tech told me a few years ago that the copper and joints are not exactly in good condition.
Due to the hilly area, Vivid Wireless coverage is patchy both for the old one and the new 4G one. As an aside TV reception is also poor in some parts, it was highlighted by people complaining they could not get the Olympics on FTA and of course some idiots at CH7 said why not stream it instead over the internet !!! you can imagine the laughs that that got.
I did a quick calculation that WA is entitled (based on Population) to around $3Billion of the Govt NBN spend I would be surprised if we have had anywhere near half of that yet. The Govt NBN money runs out in 2017 and what's the betting we get told it's tin cans and string for all of us not connected up yet.
Its the GST share thing all over again.
I am stirring things up with our local Fed Member and hopefully will be meeting with him before the end of this month, mainly to find out why Edgewater's NBN rollout has been delayed and why him and his WA colleagues aren't jumping up and down in the press and the Parliament demanding that the NBNCo , pull out their digits in Metro Perth.
I did a quick calculation that WA is entitled (based on Population) to around $3Billion of the Govt NBN spend I would be surprised if we have had anywhere near half of that yet.
@Harry If you go to the NBN.co weekly report at:
http://www.nbnco.com.au/c
Then you will notice that total Aus has had 3.11mil premises RFS of that WA has 318k premises RFS, that is just over 10.2% and not that far off from the ratio that WA makes of the Aus population.
However where things get very interesting is of those numbers the entire Aus only has 1.31mil premises activated. That is a take-up of 42%. Why is that. There is something they are not telling us. What does NBN.co measure their progress on RFS or activated. I bet you its RFS.
Now to get to WA, and we have only had 119,890 premises activated. So that makes only 9% of the activated services are in WA. I have been keeping an eye on this for a while now and it is getting worse. So uptake in WA, which we heard in the news is the worst state when it comes to speed and thus you would expect a high percentage of uptake when premises are activated but we see only 37%. These numbers are including the fixed wireless and satellite services numbers. You can do those with the brownfield and greenfield numbers only and the trend is the same.
They do provide a service class zero (Column C) in the report which means there is additional cabling required. Now this is the number in the report I think is bollocks or if it is true then they have been dragging their feet to change the pole over to the node. I would be interested to see what the service class 10 (which is requiring additional cabling for FTTN) but that is not in the report.
In summary. What do the NBN.co report their progress on, if it is RFS we are all in for a rude shock in the not to the distant future. Then NBN.co please explain why we have only around a 40% activation rate. Finally based on the line of questioning why would WA be slower than other states to take it up when it is one of the states with the worst internet speeds. Excuse my cynicism but is it maybe that you started the roll-out in areas where there is good ADSL coverage and people are locked into 24month contracts. Didn't do you market research properly then did you?
WIth you on this and in fact a link to your petition has been put on out local community Facebook site. T
@ Harry. Thanks for that mate, can see the signatures coming through already and it's only been a few hours, looks like we've hit another nerve ending when it comes to NBN.
You can invent any fictitious scenario you like I guess.
It's not a fictitious scenario, it's a worst case scenario based on what is actually being installed in the real world.
However, the design rules do state approximately 200 subscribers per node.
Please quote this.
I've seen reports of up to about 40 more or less, but in no case is 384 a "thing".
The link has already been provided to one node covering 322 premises � here it is again in case you missed it https://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/ada/2WOY-02-10 � and 384 lines is what the nodes are configured for from day one. Heaven forbid that some of those premises end up wanting more than one service...
Similarly, we'll never see a case within the next few years where every subscriber will order 100Mbps access. In fact, at the moment it seems you can't order it.
Wrong, plenty of RSPs offer up-to-100Mbps (not 100Mbps) FTTN services today.
In fact, the average tier is well less than 50/20, so the contention ratio is actually better than 5:1 in current deployments
Were you involved in the modelling for the farce that called itself a Cost Benefit Analysis?
To dimension according to reality seemed to be the best practice last time I looked.
Then why are you advocating dimensioning based on theoretical targets and random assumptions?
It would be an insane waste of fibre not to.
The whole thing is an insane waste.
I haven't been privileged to look inside the nodes
Plenty of people have, and have shown your statements to be incorrect.
So it is a 2000Mbps uplink, not a 1000Mbps uplink.
Only if you don't care what direction the data travels!
Whichever way you slice it, congestion will not be in the node
Maybe you think that if you keep saying it it will come true...
Does anyone know why the myBroadband.gov website has been semi-deactivated and one now gets redirected to a government data website. I see the data is still there but it is not as interactive as what it used to be in the myBroadband.gov website.
In the myBroadband.gov website you could put your address in and it would spit out your broadband service availability rating and quality rating, based on which part of the exchange (read pole) you were a part of.
Now in the data website if you don't know under which part if the exchange you are a part of then you are basically screwed. It's not a readily available bit of information. I have noticed at my pole the number is painted on it. But that could be co-incidence or just in my area, and for that you need to know where your pole is.
Is it maybe because the data had too many errors in it that they pulled it. Just my cynic view, because it was clearly incorrect for my location. Said I had an A rating for ADSL availability and that when I can't even get ADSL. Too far away from the exchange and with Telstra's new policy of distance from the exchange it should have been pretty obvious to them. Maybe it jus considers is the copper in the ground (tick), is the exchange ADSL activated (tick), are there ports available in the exchange (tick).
There are lots of ports available in the exchange because half of us can't get ADSL.
My bet is that in 2019 one or both parties will come in with a platform to replace all FTTN nodes with some form of fibre service � either FTTdp or FTTH over maybe a 5-year period.
That makes about as much sense as your suggestion that the node cabinets can be used for GPON.
http://www.itwire.com/teleco
more on the the big teclo/ACCC something we heard about again a few days ago.
http://www.itwire.com/broadb
Not 100% sure what to think of this one. Seems like a reason to just say "We can't provide ADSL but we can move you to a 3G/4G plan for much more of your money and less data."
Say around 200 accounts
200 residential accounts or 200 corporate accounts?
Helpman please realise business in (Australia) had fibre services (possibly) before you were born.
Please take this into consideration before you post?
Anyone want to help out on the hard limits given some average usage numbers on an average existing node with that 2Gbps uplink?
Is that a scientific question or an economic one?
Maybe the Federal Government wants NBNCo to go really cheap on FTTN
Conspicuous theories aside, if you dump a DSLAM in a streetside cabinet, as of 2016, a 1G link appears to be adequate.
If it wasn't, I'm 200% sure they would upgrade it.
They pretty much come out of the factory like that.
I didn't make the rules, its pretty much just they way the ship them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletraffic_engineering
Come back to me if a 1G link is not adequate.
(and not trolling).
Layer 2 stuff...
The crucial observation in traffic engineering is that in large systems the law of large numbers can be used to make the aggregate properties of a system over a long period of time much more predictable than the behaviour of individual parts of the system.
https://networks.nokia.com/products/7330-isam-fttn-ansi
Several mentions of "bonding" on the page... Oh, well... This is only Australia, it's not like we deserve anything gold-plated...
Oh, well... This is only Australia, it's not like we deserve anything gold-plated...
People still missing the big picture.
NBN have a "cosy" relationship with Nokia, Alcaltel, etc.
It goes back a long way, way before NBN MK1.
If you've any background, you'll have noticed that gear sitting in exchanges (well before MQ came on the scene) was from the same company.
But, just because you can Google "bonding", doesn't mean we rush out and buy it.
The NBN hasn't been a disaster because of equipment, it's been because of many other reasons.
PS: I'm not knocking NBN MK1 BTW, but it's time to move on.
Plenty of good gear to come yet. Mark my words.
A question for the Whirlpool diehards to ponder?
Have any of the POI routers switches taken a dive yet?
6 years without missing a beat....
Can't beat that?
Never seen so many experts in national network implementation, particularly that nasty layer 2 one.
Must be just a case of poping a switch somewhere and running some skinny fibre...
The whole thing is an insane waste.
touch�, but I suspect your an NBN MK1 diehard?
and as you can see, they have only installed ONE SFP module in the card, there are 3 vacant slots for SFP modules
Yep. On that node it is pretty clear. Given the initial customer profile on nodes, it is enough I guess, but it does seem like a pretty small saving to me. Upgrade will have to come sooner.
On that node it is pretty clear
Possibly I'm old school, but how does one monitor traffic by looking at a picture.
I thought for a moment I had my old test gear out...
But, just because you can Google "bonding", doesn't mean we rush out and buy it.
I'm sorry, but you completely missed the point.
The gear is especially designed with bonding in mind. It is especially heralded all over the specifications page/brochure. And the best speed only comes with bonding.
But residential customers in Australia are not getting 2 pair bonding, and businesses are not getting 8 pair bonding.
So, the "making best use of existing plant", and advertising top speeds when you are only going to use the gear to the lowest potential, all gets a little sour in the NBN case...
I suspect your an NBN MK1 diehard
You make that sound negative, how about you phrase it more honestly .
"I suspect your an advocate of a 93% FTTP network in the same time for less money than what we have"
You make that sound negative, how about you phrase it more honestly .
"I suspect your an advocate of a 93% FTTP network in the same time for less money than what we have"
Great response to a Negative Nelly DC. Geo is just spin, spin, spin.
PS: I'm not knocking NBN MK1 BTW, but it's time to move on.
"On". Is that where we're heading?
Plain and simple the RSP is over subscribing users and not keeping up with bring cvc on. This is happening because the sales or ordering system does not keep track of how Amy users are connect to each POP. I work closiley with a few RSP's and I have been told this. They are worried if they say do to the connecting user until cvc is added they would loss the busniess. This comes back to having to many POP in remote areas were backhaul is still very expensive a long with costly cvc charges from NBN. There is just too many POP involved and RSP's are too slow to react on traffic management. Once an issue is identified it just takes too long to start a project to upgrade it.
Think about it. Your adding thousands of new users with know what carrier they are going to uses. This is also happen with fttp and was hopping a few years ago too.
Does anyone know why the myBroadband.gov website has been semi-deactivated and one now gets redirected to a government data website. I see the data is still there but it is not as interactive as what it used to be in the myBroadband.gov website.
In the myBroadband.gov website you could put your address in and it would spit out your broadband service availability rating and quality rating, based on which part of the exchange (read pole) you were a part of.
Now in the data website if you don't know under which part if the exchange you are a part of then you are basically screwed. It's not a readily available bit of information. I have noticed at my pole the number is painted on it. But that could be co-incidence or just in my area, and for that you need to know where your pole is.
It's not loaded by default, but when you are looking at the National map, load the 'Broadband map' data set. You will probably also have to lower the opacity of the two other data sets. The area covered by each pillar has a black outline.
Then click on your house on the map and the 'Feature Information' has the pillar name listed at the top.
I agree with you that it doesn't show areas with poor access. There is a relatively new housing estate near me that has terrible broadband and the National map doesn't display that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletraffic_engineering
Come back to me if a 1G link is not adequate.
(and not trolling).
Layer 2 stuff...
The crucial observation in traffic engineering is that in large systems the law of large numbers can be used to make the aggregate properties of a system over a long period of time much more predictable than the behaviour of individual parts of the system
why are you posting this ?
when it clearly states, in the very wiki that you linked to
In broadband networks[edit]
Teletraffic Engineering is a well-understood discipline in the traditional voice network, where traffic patterns are established, growth rates can be predicted, and vast amounts of detailed historical data are available for analysis. However, in modern broadband networks, the teletraffic engineering methodologies used for voice networks are inappropriate
200 residential accounts or 200 corporate accounts?
Helpman please realise business in (Australia) had fibre services (possibly) before you were born.
Please take this into consideration before you post?
Corporate business, but 98% of business is small business, 89% have less than 5 employees and 61% turn over less than 200K PA so you can be sure the vast majority of business in Australia won't have Fibre, today let alone before he was born.
It goes back a long way, way before NBN MK1.
The NBN company existed before it was created with NBN MK1?
Have any of the POI routers switches taken a dive yet?
Has anyone ever complained about the equipment in the POI or just whats being deployed for the last mile?
Come back to me if a 1G link is not adequate.
Ok I'm back at you Geo. Apart from some obsolete junk what have got to offer? This is meant to last 20 + years, when it's obsolescent NOW. A 1Gbps link will introduce congestion at peak periods. It's ANOTHER bottleneck in nbn's long chain of bottlenecks that customers will have to deal with. You really think that nbn will pull another fibre to every node? When they don't even have the money now to complete their shoddy work? Pull the other one.
I agree with you that it doesn't show areas with poor access. There is a relatively new housing estate near me that has terrible broadband and the National map doesn't display that.
There is this now as an alternate
http://accan.org.au/broadban
There is this now as an alternate
http://accan.org.au/broadba
Given the address lookup on it doesn't work I am not filled with optimism.
It's not loaded by default, but when you are looking at the National map, load the 'Broadband map' data set. You will probably also have to lower the opacity of the two other data sets. The area covered by each pillar has a black outline.
Then click on your house on the map and the 'Feature Information' has the pillar name listed at the top.
I agree with you that it doesn't show areas with poor access. There is a relatively new housing estate near me that has terrible broadband and the National map doesn't display that.
@bythebrook. Thanks managed to do it but it took forever seeing that I don't have a high speed link and probably chewed a huge chunk of my data, whereas the myBroadband.gov website simply had you type in your address and it filtered all the unnecessary data. Still does not make it easy for people to find out what is for what.
Do you know if there is an update of the data planned that is more accurate in terms of 2016 seeing that the dataset is based on 2013?
https://soundcloud.com/720ab
Morrow claims FTTN will enhance Australia for 100 years, he also talks about the possibility of launching another satellite....
so much cheaper/faster than FTTP :/
It's not loaded by default, but when you are looking at the National map, load the 'Broadband map' data set.
I'm totally confused new the new layout � can't even find where to load the map.
You really think that nbn will pull another fibre to every node? When they don't even have the money now to complete their shoddy work?
I am getting seriously depressed reading this. What were they really thinking when they designed this FTTN network?
However, no carrier ever dimensions for those spikes. If they did, the service would be unaffordable. A 5:1 contention ratio in the node is still a pretty gold-plated contention ratio.
These days, the providers need to take into account a significant percentage of people wanting to use streaming video (e.g. Netflix) in peak periods.
The crucial observation in traffic engineering is that in large systems the law of large numbers can be used to make the aggregate properties of a system over a long period of time much more predictable than the behaviour of individual parts of the system.
What you and many fail to address is whether 200 is a sufficiently large number for this to apply.
I have raised this time and again, I am yet to see an adequate response to the issue.
It is pretty easy to wave our hands around and say that the same provisioning rules that apply when there are thousands , tensbof thousands or even more.
If you want any clearer example of this look at Internides early experience in Tassie with 100Mbps services. This was at the CSA level which is a maximum of 4000 users not the 200.
So yeah, it isn't as simple as you make out.
I am getting seriously depressed reading this. What were they really thinking when they designed this FTTN network?
A technical solution to working with existing copper. The hard limit design policy.
The policy of just placing a node over a voice grade copper network, bringing in power. What could be a 2Gbps uplink would work for redacted more years?
100 accounts, 150, 250, near the max per node then get to test a few HD ready devices every night.
Is it a provider side issue or do many new nodes need an another new upgrade to fix the 2Gbps uplink.
What you and many fail to address is whether 200 is a sufficiently large number for this to apply
or that the article he linked to explicitly stated
"However, in modern broadband networks, the teletraffic engineering methodologies used for voice networks are inappropriate"
fix the 2Gbps uplink
they have only enabled 1 Gbps up and 1 Gbps down, the second fibre pair is not terminated, and they have not installed the second SFP module
they have only enabled 1 Gbps up and 1 Gbps down, the second fibre pair is not terminated, and they have not installed the second SFP module
Thanks for the correction :) That was interesting design policy.
Hmm, I find this surprising given the docs and common sense
Common sense and documentation appear to have nothing to do with nbnTM (and vice versa).
The design parameter coming out of NBNco is "approximately 200 premises per node". I have seen documentation of nodes with as high as 240.
The node I will be connected to is slated to have 223 premises connected.
https://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/ada/2MTT-01-02
If you look at the ADA details in 2MTT-01 you will see 4 ADAs with >200 premises, including one of 280 (and one of 4, with the same provisioned uplink):
https://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/rollout/2MTT-01
This is in an area that was scheduled to have FTTP construction commenced by end of 2014, with the expectation of being RFS by end of 2105, if Labor had retained in 2013. And my FTTN RFS date has changed from August to September to no longer published by nbnTM.
or that the article he linked to explicitly stated
"However, in modern broadband networks, the teletraffic engineering methodologies used for voice networks are inappropriate"
To be fair, not really applicable as we aren't getting a modern broadband network :(
I am getting seriously depressed reading this. What were they really thinking when they designed this FTTN network?
Labor = Fibre
Labor = bad
therefore
Fibre = bad
What were they really thinking when they designed this FTTN network?
That money sunk invested into FTTN is not worth it, as it will need to be overbuilt quite soon.
In fact the less money spent on it now and the worse its performance, the quicker it will be overbuilt.
Most importantly, the worse the FTTN, the lower the barriers to entry and the higher the returns for anyone wanting to overbuild it, providing that they do not own the FTTN as well.
Setting up FTTN as very weak competitor.
Nice in theory, but fraught with political, reputational and other risks. Particularly for both the National as a whole, and those who can't get what they need and want, until the what comes after FTTN arrives. A timeframe that is most uncertain.
Morrow claims FTTN will enhance Australia for 100 years, he also talks about the possibility of launching another satellite....
I legitimately don't get how he can get away with blatantly lying, not only to the public, but private investors as well.
Almost everything that comes out of his mouth is a bold faced lie. How can a public figure in charge of such an important infrastructure project not be held to account. It was like the last senate hearings, "Commercial in confidence" for everything even though barely any of it was classified under commercial in confidence (and doesn't Parliamentary Privilege overrule that anyway?), they just refused to give the required evidence and documentation to the inquiry, yet they just got away with it, every single time.
When he first started out, he was cluelessly going to put a "filter" on internet against tech advice � this changed as he took on the role of promoting the mostly FTTP version of NBN.
It may have happened to change about the same time as he started promoting the FTTP-based NBN, but it's hard to see any connection. Imposition of government Net censorship is always a very bad idea; once such controls are in place, the capacity for scope creep in censored content is always irresistable.
It took a while to get through, but once he realised his censorship dream was dead, he was then able to fully focus on the one great contribution he made � the peerless introduction of the vital FTTP NBN.
do many new nodes need an another new upgrade to fix the 2Gbps uplink
Have a look at a TPG DSLAM which has been recently installed in a large MDU.
One of those inner city type dwellings with lots of inner city type residents. You know, the 12 student to an apartment type ones.
Get back to me with the stock standard link that TPG is using. And if they have any plans for upgrading that in the near future.
I legitimately don't get how he can get away with blatantly lying, not only to the public, but private investors as well.
At the moment he is pulling the wool over the public's eyes but not the private investors and this shall be evidenced when the Governments allocation is exhausted.
No one with any respect for their money will want a bar of Turnbulls MTM.
How does the promotion of confusion assist people's understanding of issues?
He wasn't promoting confusion about NBN/MTM or anything else, he was merely making the point that we could all save ourselves some time by skipping past posts containing obvious errors.
There's a subtle, but vital, difference between a post saying, for example, 'MTM is wonderful because of blah blah blah', and a post that says 'I don't understand xyz, could you explain this to me please'.
;-)
I'm sorry, but you completely missed the point.
I'm sorry I didn't.
Bonding is an option, like a line speed selection of 12/25/50/100 mbps.
It's simply not being used. The stock standard line card supports other speeds, and other configurations.
The copper network which is being utilised for theNBN has a spec of 90% for 50Mbps, without bonding, as bonding would assume that every area has spare pairs. That's simply not the case.
It is especially heralded all over the specifications page/brochure.
It's an option, just like using FW or satellite to deliver service where a stock standard DSL service wont meet the current government policy.
He wasn't promoting confusion
Perhaps I should cite some real good stuff, but I think news and wiki articles will suffice in this thread.
The reader can of course investigate deeper if they want to.
That money sunk invested into FTTN is not worth it, as it will need to be overbuilt quite soon.
The overriding function of the FTTN design is to keep Turnbull's friends in profit. A functional NBN network, like was originally designed, would see Foxtel die and Telstra relegated to 'just another reseller carrier'. Obviously commercial 'deals' with the LNP has seen the current NBN drop to the levels that will see Foxtel profitable for at least another 10 years... and keep Telstra's various monopolies in place for the foreseeable future. This also keeps the LNP in play with favorable publicity from the murdoch press, and keeps their various share portfolios profitable.
The stock standard line card supports other speeds, and other configurations.
The 'linecard' will support a single speed... it might be a 4x1G card (though it could have been a 1x10G if they'd spent the money), and bundling 4x1G interfaces is a possibility. The contention ratios seen when you have 384 subscribers (maybe 20% are expecting 100mbit/s, but all that is promised is 25mbit/s) sharing a 1gbit/s link is too high. Even if you bundle all 4 into a 4gbit/s link 384 Netflix subscribers are going to suffer, and the ACCC are going to hear about it... eventually. The NBN are currently stonewalling RSPs, telling them that their CVC purchase is to blame for their woes, and that their node backhaul is not oversubscribed. But that won't last forever.
when it clearly states, in the very wiki that you linked to
The field was created by the work of A. K. Erlang for circuit-switched networks but is applicable to packet-switched networks, as they both exhibit Markovian properties, and can hence be modeled by e.g. a Poisson arrival process.
Perhaps you should update the article?
Teletraffic science is the traditional term for all theoretical fundamentals and engineering practices to describe data flows in telecommunication networks, the performance of the usage of network resources, procedures for sizing of resources and engineering the networks for given traffic load and quality of service requirements.
Most importantly, the worse the FTTN, the lower the barriers to entry and the higher the returns for anyone wanting to overbuild it, providing that they do not own the FTTN as well.
I think the legislation that requires any competing network to be wholesale only makes the business case very difficult.
Setting up FTTN as very weak competitor.
It's not just the technology, it's also the high access prices on the NBN/MTM.
therefore
Fibre = bad
And of course: Any-old-lying-rubbish-the-plebs-can-be-made-to-swallow = Brilliant!
We could write a book (if the Royal Commission doesn't get in first) on how Oz went from a first class, world leading NBN concept to a ragbag MTM that's being, or has been, scrapped elsewhere.
Perhaps I should cite some real good stuff
A change in appoach so as to incorporate some relevant and accurate info is always welcome indeed.
Provided it really is 'real good stuff', of course.
The 'linecard' will support a single speed...
The linecard supports many speeds and configurations.
The uplink is most commonly a 1G link, and has required (as per NBN network design rules) the Access Aggregation Switch's (AAS).
Like I said, DSLAMS come stock standard from the factory with 1G links. There is a reason for that.
Do you think NBN would be wasting money on aggregation switches if it was cheaper to provide 10G uplinks for each and every DSLAM nationwide?
duplicate
duplicate
Yeah I get that problem of double posting from my buffering connection too.
duplicate
Yeah I get that problem of double posting from my buffering connection too.
iven the address lookup on it doesn't work I am not filled with optimism.
You can put in your telphone exchange name and it works or alternatively just navigate the map to your address
The linecard supports many speeds and configurations.
No, a linecard is a linecard. It will have x number of y physical interfaces. 'Many configurations' might mean that you can bundle interfaces on the linecard into a single logical interface, but if you want to exceed that limitation you have to replace the linecard with one that has higher bandwidth interfaces. Then the chassis itself would need to support fabric switching at the levels that the new card introduces, or you're going to see throughput at a level less than the interfaces are capable.
Do you think NBN would be wasting money on aggregation switches if it was cheaper to provide 10G uplinks for each and every DSLAM nationwide?
Of course I do, the entire design of this NBN network reeks of wasted expenditure that will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. So of course purchasing hardware from a vendor that won't suit a sensible upgrade path is likely to have occurred. If the aggregation switches don't have sufficient capacity to be upgraded along with the demand of the subscribers, i.e at least modular interfaces that can be changed out for 10G modules, then when the node capacity is reached there will be a substantial cost in upgrading. 384 subscribers all buying a 100mbit/s service, and expecting Netflix during the peak times, will see your 1G links redundant in a very small amount of time.
What were they really thinking when they designed this FTTN network?
that the existing copper network that already reaches and connects most homes and businesses across the nation gives its owner, now Telstra, a huge monopolistic advantage over any competitor � this must be maintained at all costs ... it must be UPGRADED to better meet future needs, rather than replaced by a new purpose-built network that could be shared equally by all providers.
sorry duplicate post. wtf is going on ? how did I do it
It may have happened to change about the same time as he started promoting the FTTP-based NBN, but it's hard to see any connection. Imposition of government Net censorship is always a very bad idea; once such controls are in place, the capacity for scope creep in censored content is always irresistable.
oh, sorry I didn't mean to suggest it was a strong connection, only that his relationship with WP and techies in general had changed
I think the filter went away mainly because it was originally suggested due to pressure from conservative Christian groups that held the balance of power before the 2010 election. After 2010, we got a hung parliament, but the ACL became irrelevant, replaced by Katter, Oakeshot and Windsor.
Morrow claims FTTN will enhance Australia for 100 years, he also talks about the possibility of launching another satellite....
Will someone knock some F***ing sense into this asshole? god damnit how did this guy even manage to get to be the head of vodafone in the first place? His such a freaking idiot! I hope he crash and burns when Australia realizes they are being duped. Very slim chance that they will wake up because of mainstream media but if that small chance happens i would love to see him survive the publicity.
when I make a dup post, it's often because I hit the Post Reply button instead of Mark as Read. Then hitting Send instead of Mark as Read (unfortunately all around the same spot) The new Post interface automatically reuses text from your last post.
god damnit how did this guy even manage to get to be the head of vodafone in the first god damn place?
Maybe a US media magnate gave him a reference .
I think the filter went away
I hasn't 'gone away', it's just evolved into 1) metadata retention, and 2) legislation for mandatory site blocking. It's no longer a 'filter', it's a blanket ban on any site that any interested party wants to ban if they spend the money on lawyers and take it to court. And there's always the meta data to single out those people that wanted to use the site in the first place... in case the interested party wants to recoup their court costs.
And the TPP made all this possible.
Maybe a US media magnate gave him a reference .
Reference to the NBN sure thats the only way i reckon he got that job. Vodafone however...
Given the address lookup on it doesn't work I am not filled with optimism.
Address lookup on the ACCAN "ADSL underserved" page worked just fine for me.
Yeah I get that problem of double posting from my buffering connection too.
Yeah I get that problem of double posting from my buffering connection too.
Naturally we're all full of sympathy � at least all of us who have to put up with the exact same problem!
Maybe a US media magnate gave him a reference.
Surely that's improbable?
I mean, just how many people who are US citizens and who are media magnates would any intelligent, sensible adults-now-in-charge government allow to do such a thing?
I think the legislation that requires any competing network to be wholesale only makes the business case very difficult.
I don't expect that legislation to last too long.
At some point we'll be presented with an option of really really expensive wholesale monopoly broadband or less expensive and higher quality broadband from vertically integrated RSPs who are can both wholesale and retail.
sorry duplicate post. wtf is going on ? how did I do it
The WP site has been a bit dicky for a few days, with it often waiting a minute after a click before anything happens. I'm hoping they may yet fix it.
It hasn't 'gone away'
No; a latent threat of government Net censorship has merely been moved discreetly out of public view, waiting for the right moment to resusitate it.
Both sides of politics were happy with the focus on NBN/MTM, since they could keep their respective adversarial positions. The Coalition said NBN (among other things) 'provided fast access to porn and other illegal content.' � but porn isn't illegal, while all paedophile material is (rightly) illegal anyway.
And the TPP made all this possible.
Not yet, because the TPP isn't in place. But it will give far more power to US-based media corporations.
I'm totally confused new the new layout � can't even find where to load the map.
Left hand side, blue box "Add data." Select National Data Sets -> Communications, then select 'Broadband Map" and on the right-hand-side of the screen 'Add to Map."
No; a latent threat of government Net censorship has merely been moved discreetly out of public view, waiting for the right moment to resusitate it.
The bill, allowing for the blocking of internet content based on the filings from stakeholders, was passed into law in June 2015... it was an amendment to the Australian Copyright Act 1968.
Foxtel have already moved to utilise these changes to prop up their failing business model in Australia.
Other material being blocked is done under other existing laws, i.e child pornography. But the amendment last year was specifically to protect copyright holders' rights to make us pay more for content in Australia.
If not posted already.
ike millions of Australians, I fear I may have overestimated Malcolm Turnbull
his morphing of the national broadband network into a multi-technology mix, or MTM, otherwise known as Malcolm Turnbull�s Mess
Like I said, DSLAMS come stock standard from the factory with 1G links. There is a reason for that.
There are is, the person that placed the order specified it.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét