is it any wonder with teflon malcoms rating slipping and the real possibility of a labor government and possible royal commisiion we are suddenly now seeing the mainstream media pick up on this mtm mess
as many of us predicted, these stories will only get louder and more prominent, malcol, turncoat wont have anywhere to hide soon.
https://twitter.com/theproj
Waleed (with a few minor mistakes) just decimated the MTM NBN.
Excellent work and explained to viewers at a level that can be understood by them. Perhaps he needs to be fed a lot more facts such as the cost for FTTP and FTTN being as good as the same � and what do viewers get for their dollar with each....
Waleed's report is better for sure
Yep one show reported the facts and told it to us straight, the other tried to give a moderate and balanced view.
project is watched by ateleast 500-600k a night, and even if a quarter of those people go onto share on their face book and twitter and lets say another 10-20 people per person watches it, we can suddenly have a million plus people become aware of this mess
im so happy right now
The upload speeds FTTN will provide will still be crap
This is far more important than its given credit for.
At the moment the internet is all about consumption, but we as users are about to shift to the cloud in a big way.
And then we will want upload speeds that will need to rock.
Building the NBN with an eye to present needs completely ignores how technology requirements change within a short timeline.
Come this Saturday we can start with the comparisons of what each side actually achieved with the NBN in their respective 3 years !
Building the NBN with an eye to present needs completely ignores how technology requirements change within a short timeline.
And totally ignores the fact that building these projects and upgrading them (rebuilding) take many years.... Whether we are talking about today or the future we are already behind the 8 ball.
For anyone who watched the GTC keynote from Jen-Hsun Huang of NVidia last night (2am eastern), you'd see how big VR is already and only going to explode from here, and so too cloud computing, self-driving vehicles, and the IoT (Internet of Things), as well as all the amazing advancements in AI and deep-learning (which can help with medical and other facets of daily life). and etc etc. Mind-boggling stuff shown there.
Meanwhile, we're here propping up our Telstra stock holdings rotting copper lines, as if we don't know any better.
It's horrifying.
Turnbull has the vision of Mr. Magoo
"It's probably the most expensive project to roll out an obsolete second hand technology in the world's history." � RMIT computer engineer, Mark Gregory
Well said Mark. This is a clear example where politicians need to remember who they work for and what their job is.
At the moment we seem to have a government who is interested in protecting shareholders of one particular company and preserving the tax haven of one particular american billionaire.
These are highly educated people, the majority of whom are lawyers. I will spit out my cornflakes when down the track they say "oh we were acting on the advice of...". This has already started Fifield saying that NBN can use whatever technology they want...and Bill Morrow says 'Im acting on the instructions of the government'.
The projects Facebook page has a few unhappy lnp supporters � all deluded.
Leaked documents form NBN Co put the figure at 10%, I expect that is probably the truth instead of the overtly politicised comments from NBN Co execs.
If you are prepared to place more faith in the contents of and editable 'leaked document' (not documents AFAIK) of unknown provenance, than evidence provided by corporate officers to a senate hearing that is your prerogative. I had gathered the impression from your posting history you are a critical thinker with reasoned positions.
As I stated earlier I don't know what the actual figure is. I am pretty confident the evidence provided to the senate was accurate as to the actuals at the time stated. I am not a statistician so I don't know if it is statistically significant, although the sample size is certainly large enough AIUI.
It may be that, nbn with the detailed information they now have regarding actuals, and the characteristics of the areas they have rolled out FttP, have determined that areas with a lower likelihood of blocked LiCs will be preferred for the remaining FttP brownfield rollout areas. Without attempting the maths I don't know if it would be possible to get from the current ~23% down to ~10%. There is some logic to this given the
It may be that "FttP areas" in the context of that document is all FttP (including greenfields).
Come this Saturday we can start with the comparisons of what each side actually achieved with the NBN in their respective 3 years !
The smiling Assassin with the Hyena.
Yep one show reported the facts and told it to us straight, the other tried to give a moderate and balanced view.
I liked balanced views, but it just doesn't apply to a case like this. Its literally move us into the future with the rest of the world or leave us in the dark ages
This is far more important than its given credit for. At the moment the internet is all about consumption, but we as users are about to shift to the cloud in a big way. And then we will want upload speeds that will need to rock. Building the NBN with an eye to present needs completely ignores how technology requirements change within a short timeline
This
the other tried to give a moderate and balanced view.
False dichotomy. Really sick of this, its bad journalism.
Peter McCutcheon
Nearly 50,000 Australians now using Fibre to the Node technology. My report including iv with #NBN's Bill Morrow on #abc730 tonight.
Ah well, probably a puff piece. Nothing to see here then.
Thumbs up to Mark for telling it how it is on 7:30 tonight. The rest of the report was pretty average and I guess once Bill Morrow is on, you know what you are going to hear.
The NBN report by Waleed on The Project on Channel Ten tonight was much better and should be watched.
the IoT (Internet of Things)
Microsoft are heavily pushing this in their latest dev releases, they obviously see it as very important.
If you are prepared to place more faith in the contents of and editable 'leaked document' (not documents AFAIK) of unknown provenance, than evidence provided by corporate officers to a senate hearing that is your prerogative. I had gathered the impression from your posting history you are a critical thinker with reasoned positions.
Seems perfectly reasonable to me � we know full well that nbn� executives have lied at those hearings (and elsewhere in public) just as we know that if the leaked documents had been altered then nbn� PR lackies wouldn't have wasted a moment saying so.
few unhappy lnp supporters
And the numbers shall grow and Turnbull and Morrow shall have beaten a hasty retreat to some tax haven to count the $ they have won gambling on the horses (they all say this).
I certainly find it hilarious that on the big screen they have finder.com.au/nbn, not nbn�'s website.
I think the reason for this may be that the nbn site main search page no longer displays the adjustable map, just a yes / no statement. Even when you click the "Not your address" link below the small fixed map display, the map that appears has no coverage indication on it.
The original functionality still exists on the site but is only accessible via http://www.nbnco.com.au/devel
This is a major issue for regional and rural users, particularly those in the FW / Sat footprint. The GNAF data in these areas can be particularly bad. Without the visual cues from the map it would be easy to accept the no service statement without question.
If you are prepared to place more faith in the contents of and editable 'leaked document' (not documents AFAIK) of unknown provenance, than evidence provided by corporate officers to a senate hearing that is your prerogative.
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that they have lied in their testimony. But over time I think it is fair to say that the current NBN Co regime have been all to keen to walk a fine line between misleading statements vs accurate statements to the Senate Committee and Estimates.
NBN Co execs have time and again walked a fine line with their testimony, it is usually only after the passing of time that the reliability of NBN Co execs testimony has become clear.
What has caused my spider senses to tingle is Morrow's fondness for saying that delivering FTTP involves 'digging up everyone's driveways, rose bushes and gardens'. ie It is part of his political narrative in support of the government,
I am not sure what you are saying here. My understanding is that LiC means 'Lead-in Conduit' which would be specific to underground 'lead-ins', unless aerial 'lead-ins' are also in a conduit in some instances.
lots of connections, being done aerially in 2GOS-07 that are having troubles are being listed in fault codes as "Blocked LIC" when they will be running it all aerially and it was always going to be aerial installs with no "lead in conduit" involved at all. That is what I am getting at LIC seems no to mean a problem between street and premises, be an actual blocked conduit or an incomplete aerial path.
maybe LIC now mean "lead in connection" maybe not, but it certainly involves more than blocked conduits
I think the reason for this may be that the nbn site main search page no longer displays the adjustable map, just a yes / no statement.
Yep, I just find it absurd that a website developed by a lone teenager is used by two multi billion dollar companies who can't (or won't) provide the information customers clearly want.
we know full well that nbn� executives have lied at those hearings (and elsewhere in public)
By my recollection you regularly request links to substantiate claims you find questionable. Would you care to provide any to support this one?
just as we know that if the leaked documents had been altered then nbn� PR lackies wouldn't have wasted a moment saying so.
I am not aware that nbn has made any acknowledgement of this particular leaked document. I would imagine that if they had it would be much the same as the line Morrow uses before the senate.
'I am not aware of the document you are referring to. It is not an official nbn document. Because of this I cannot comment on the contents. Even if I was aware of the document, the contents would be CiC, so I could not comment.' or words to that effect.
It is very important to recognise and consider your inherent bias when you critically examine information placed before you.
Even if I was aware of the document, the contents would be CiC, so I could not comment.' or words to that effect.
I have watched the senate commitees a few times, and I have to say what you wrote their is pretty much the answer they gave to pretty much every question, which is pretty poor form for a company that's owned by the public.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/
This is a better version of that 7:30 Report piece.
I thought these few statements by Mr Morrow show everything that's wrong with the current plan (emphasis mine):
The head of the government body rolling out the National Broadband Network (NBN) has defended the current mix of technology for the rollout as being adequate for today's needs.
"It's very hard to predict exactly what the consumption requirements or speed requirements will be."
Mr Morrow said fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) could be upgraded in the future if there was enough demand.
If there's enough demand? Words fail me.
By my recollection you regularly request links to substantiate claims you find questionable. Would you care to provide any to support this one?
I can't be bothered searching through Hansard, but one perfect example was the questioning about the Project Fox leak � Morrow et al claimed it wasn't real and made other similar false claims.
I am not aware that nbn has made any acknowledgement of this particular leaked document.
A spokesperson for NBN dismissed suggestions that the documents raised concerns about the ability of the company to roll FTTN out on time, or that it called into question the wisdom of pursuing FTTN.
If there's enough demand? Words fail me.
We don't know if there will be a war in the future or not, so why bother buying advanced weaponry.
Not that 'The Project' is exactly a reputable source of news but I found this video interesting, criticising Liberal's implementation of the NBN network.
https://www.facebook.com/the
I can't be bothered searching through Hansard, but one perfect example was the questioning about the Project Fox leak � Morrow et al claimed it wasn't real and made other similar false claims.
Incoming wall of text, if you want to read it all it's from NBN Senate Select Committee on 26th September, 2014
Senator CONROY: I will start with one of the issues you mentioned: the Melton trial�or non-trial. I will just put the documents up on PowerPoint so they are available to everybody. I think you described it as 'purported to have NBN letterhead'. Is that a document that the company generated?
Mr Morrow: That is a document with NBN letterhead.
Senator CONROY: You are suggesting that it is not a document that was generated within NBN Co?
Mr Morrow: That is sanctioned by NBN Co? I do not believe so.
Senator CONROY: That is not what I asked. I asked whether it was generated within NBN Co.
Mr Morrow: We cannot confirm that. We do not even know who the author is. This is a report that was provided to us by the media. We look back at this trial and we see similar documents. That says, 'August 2014'. This was concluded in 2013, so it is our belief at this point in time that somebody else other than an official NBN person has either altered the document and/or represented it as their opinion under the NBN letterhead versus management's opinions.
Senator CONROY: This is a document that details an actual deployment that took place long after August 2013, so it cannot be a document based on�
Mr Morrow: I am not familiar with what this document is, but I can tell you�
Senator CONROY: I think you have accidentally misled the committee in your description of it. As I said, accidentally.
Mr Morrow: I do not believe I misled the committee. Could I clarify, please? Again, we have seen documents that were provided back to us by the press that management were surprised at because we have never seen the documents that went through. For example, Project Fox has information in it that did not materialise from documents that we had within the company when it was concluded earlier in time, and that is what I am referencing. I would ask Mr Adcock to comment on this particular document because, again, it is not a document that I am familiar with the detail within it.
Senator CONROY: Just to be clear: there is a set of documents that refer to desktop assessments that have been written about; I have not seen them up online. This is not that. This is a report of an actual deployment. You have said that this was completed in 2013, and that is not true.
Mr Morrow: Project Fox, yes.
Senator CONROY: No, this document refers to a deployment in Melton that was completed this year. Can I establish that that is factually the case, not�as you described it�that this document refers to something that was not deployed in 2013.
Mr Morrow: Again, we do not have that document in front of us, but let me�
Senator CONROY: It is up online.
Senator RUSTON: Do we have any capacity to get a hard copy of that document so that we can have a look at it?
Senator CONROY: I will happily table it.
Senator RUSTON: Thank you.
Senator CONROY: It is up online, but I will table it.
Senator SMITH: Mr Morrow, in your previous�
Senator CONROY: Sorry, I have not finished my questions. I am happy to table that so there is no confusion. Mr Adcock, do you want to supplement Mr Morrow's answer or finesse it�I am not being sarcastic when I say that�to clarify whether this is a document that purports to be about a desktop trial, Project Fox, or actually relates to a deployment?
Mr Adcock: I understand the document to be a set of presentations. As Mr Morrow said, the executive had not seen it at the time it was published in the press.
Senator CONROY: Can I clarify what you said there? It is a set of presentations internal to the company.
Mr Adcock: The document, as I understand it, was a document that was prepared and when presented to�
Senator CONROY: It was generated inside NBN Co?
Mr Adcock: It was generated inside NBN.
Senator CONROY: Which was the question I asked at the beginning.
If there's enough demand? Words fail me.
The man is literally a paid shill.
liar, cheat and thief.
we the Australian people are being robbed, cheated and lied to by the LNP and NBNco.
maybe LIC now mean "lead in connection" maybe not, but it certainly involves more than blocked conduits
That may be the case but what does it have to do with the percentage actuals reported to the senate ~ a month ago.
Of all lead-ins (as at 14 December 2015? � lets assume for completed connections / activations) ~84% were underground and ~16% were aerial. This was further broken down to 58% existing underground, 26% new underground and 16% aerial (these are all new, obviously).
lots of connections, being done aerially in 2GOS-07 that are having troubles are being listed in fault codes as "Blocked LIC" when they will be running it all aerially and it was always going to be aerial installs with no "lead in conduit" involved at all.
Clearly you are closer to the rollout than I am, but surely this would have the effect of over-inflating the "unknowable" estimated blocked LiC numbers (as per the leaked document), and would then be correctly assigned in the "actual" figures?
That 730 report was terrible. It was only like 5 minutes long and basically just repeated incorrect information about FTTN (Sooner and cheaper).
Clearly you are closer to the rollout than I am, but surely this would have the effect of over-inflating the "unknowable" estimated blocked LiC numbers (as per the leaked document), and would then be correctly assigned in the "actual" figures?
I am just saying that LIC seems to be a generic term now, it seems to have changed in meaning but I doubt that it is being divided up any further, in the back end, just used as a "condition code" in the reporting system, so it MAY, and I use that term may because I don't know one way or the other, be inflating the the numbers being reported as blocked conduits needing replacement and thus "increasing" FTTP costs
edited to add
using the term "blocked lead in conduit" also plays into the "having to dig up the front yards, nature strips and rose bushes" that has been an ongoing narrative from Mr Bill Morrow about the problem with FTTP
That 730 report was terrible.
Agreed!
just repeated incorrect information about FTTN (Sooner and cheaper).
Yep! Pro LNP with a little criticism but not a lot. Nothing about the limitations of FTTN, two or more pillars sharing a node (cost cutting, rather than aiming for future needs ect)
Not that 'The Project' is exactly a reputable source of news but I found this video interesting, criticising Liberal's implementation of the NBN network.
https://www.facebook.com/th
Well done Waleed. Have shared on facebook, the more people that see that, the better
https://delimiter.com.au/201
This is starting to annoy me. They have a policy and its wrong, I think I'd rather let Labor plan a freaking half decent policy than follow with the crappy one they are going through with.
Turnbull has the vision of Mr. Magoo
That's being very unfair to Mr Magoo.
Ohh Mr Turnbull ...... you've done it again
This is starting to annoy me. They have a policy and its wrong, I think I'd rather let Labor plan a freaking half decent policy than follow with the crappy one they are going through with.
Labor still has an official policy of 93% FTTP + 7% Wireless/Satellite. The same policy that constitutes 95% of the current NBN activations.
but one perfect example was the questioning about the Project Fox leak � Morrow et al claimed it wasn't real
Incoming wall of text, if you want to read it all it's from NBN Senate Select Committee on 26th September, 2014
OK, that is a perfect example, there is really no other way to view it. The critical statement being in bold
Mr Morrow: We cannot confirm that. We do not even know who the author is. This is a report that was provided to us by the media. We look back at this trial and we see similar documents. That says, 'August 2014'. This was concluded in 2013, so it is our belief at this point in time that somebody else other than an official NBN person has either altered the document and/or represented it as their opinion under the NBN letterhead versus management's opinions.
What was he thinking.
That deals with the FttN delays rather than the FttDP doc in discussion.
That 730 report was terrible. It was only like 5 minutes long and basically just repeated incorrect information about FTTN (Sooner and cheaper).
Agreed. After Leigh Sales had earlier dissected just about everything the education minister said, they happily let Morrow's bullsh!t go unchallenged. Like when he said if people need faster speeds later on, we can just upgrade the FTTN then.
If Labor wins power, he has to be the first to go. I don't say that lightly, because I hate how politicised the NBN has become and it is so messy to be replacing the CEO and board potentially every 3 years, but he has to go.
Labor still has an official policy of 93% FTTP + 7% Wireless/Satellite.
A lot has changed (read: LNP damaged) since this ALP policy was in force. They need an updated policy that reflects the realities of where the LNP has taken the NBN. They don't need it right now, but some time before the election. I for one would not be happy with the ALP just saying they will do "more fibre".
A lot has changed (read: LNP damaged) since this ALP policy was in force. They need an updated policy that reflects the realities of where the LNP has taken the NBN. They don't need it right now, but some time before the election. I for one would not be happy with the ALP just saying they will do "more fibre".
@Mrs mac
This, we can no longer do that because of what LNP has done. It's something Morrow and Turnbull will have to answer for if a Royal Commission ever comes around. Something I note that when a few senators I think wanted a Federal ICAC instead of just the ABCC but Turnbull said no. Makes you wonder huh?
That 730 report was terrible. It was only like 5 minutes long and basically just repeated incorrect information about FTTN (Sooner and cheaper).
Unpaid political commercial.....?? NBN deserves so much better than that.
One has to question if ABC is being forced to be a mouth piece for govt as in third world autocracies.
They need an updated policy that reflects the realities of where the LNP has taken the NBN.
Policy yes, but super detail no.... Commitment to the thrust of broadband delivery is sufficient, the detail will follow when all the redacted information which can't be released for so called commercial in confidence reasons can be viewed and the lies separated from fact.
I wonder whatever happened to the young liberal guy that had the petition for a real NBN with thousands of signatures but left it too late to affect the result of the last election ?
Does he still have the same passion for FTTH ?
It would be interesting to know & it would be great if someone took up the baton & got another petition before this election with better timing & will the electorate actually care anymore .
Agreed. After Leigh Sales had earlier dissected just about everything the education minister said, they happily let Morrow's bullsh!t go unchallenged. Like when he said if people need faster speeds later on, we can just upgrade the FTTN then.
The fact the ABC had to use a Milk Transport company to say the current so called pretend NBN will be adequate says it all really.
The pro Liberal ABCNews dept did a tough but fair interview with Birmingham only to suck up to the Turnbull government by doing a fluff piece about their so called NBN on the same night.
https://delimiter.com.au/20
This is starting to annoy me. They have a policy and its wrong, I think I'd rather let Labor plan a freaking half decent policy than follow with the crappy one they are going through with.
All Labor has said is more Fiber not full Fiber, there is a big difference and copper will always be in the network. We need to start getting back to reality that the MTM will stay under Labor.
Labor can not reverse the current policy as the Coalition has ensured an MTM legacy forever as per below statement. The FTTdp will be added to the mix by both parties once the NBN finishes trials with the last 25-100M being copper, as said there will never be return to FTTP.
Analysts say the rollout has progressed too far for Labor to try to go back to a full-fibre network, but argue fibre-to-the-distribution point could help the party save face and costs.
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
Once FTTdp trials are finalised by NBN, FTTdp will be added to the mix. clare has never defended the below statement by Senator Fifield.
�In recent weeks, when asked about Labor�s broadband policy, the Shadow Communications spokesman has simply said that �[Labor will rollout more fibre,�� Fifield said in remarks prepared for today�s CommsDay Summit.
Which is tantamount to an admission that the Coalition�s technology-agnostic business model is right.�
http://www.computerworld.com
Labor still has an official policy of 93% FTTP + 7% Wireless/Satellite. The same policy that constitutes 95% of the current NBN activations.
No Labor does not have an official policy of 93% FTTP. All Labor has said is more Fiber under clare which is not full FTTP.
The messages that both clare and conroy are different, conroy though is no longer in the comms portfolio.
Both parties will be adopting FTTdp with the last 25-100M lead in being copper once trials tests are done by NBN. Some copper lead ins from the street are very long depending on road width, property size, nature strip width.
NBN chief executive Bill Morrow has revealed he expects up to 300,000 premises to receive fibre-to-the-distribution-point (FTTdp) coupled with skinny fibre instead of fibre-to-the-node or fixed wireless.
The network builder made the announcement ahead of a 30-premises trial of the technology across two locations in Melbourne and Sydney starting next month.
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
I suspect the Government will start the distraction campaign to avoid the NBN becoming an election issue.
The question is what will it be. They always like going after welfare recipients and students so unsuspecting it'll start there.
I suspect the Government will start the distraction campaign to avoid the NBN becoming an election issue.
The question is what will it be.
Well, the 'tax debate got them nowhere.
The distraction will have to be a doosie!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor has said is more Fiber not full Fibe
Exactly. The only ones implying that they were planning FULL fibre, are the lnp..
. The FTTdp will be added to the mix by both parties o
Most likely, but the difference will be the quantity of fttdp.
Mtm nbn are only doing areas too difficult or too costly to do with fttn.
I believe alp will be switching from fttn to fttdp ASAP and also extending fttp as much as possible.
Bill Morrow has revealed he expects up to 300,000 premises to receive fibre-to-the-distribution-point (FTTdp)
Very deceiving, because it included fibre to mdus or fibre to basement. Nothing new here.
As for policy, the alp was and still is , 93% fttp. At least
until they produce a new policy,
policy, the alp was and still is , 93% fttp. At least
until they produce a new policy,
Yup, as per my earlier point it still is their official policy until they formally change it. I'll also repeat that this policy is responsible for 95% of all customers on NBN today.
That's why this whole discussion is ridiculous and classic politics. When a government is losing traction and has only delivered 50,000 customers on their policy over 3 years then they need a distraction. The classic distraction is say where is the opposition policy.
Labor are under no obligation to produce it until an election campaign.
Labor are under no obligation to produce it until an election campaign.
And probably a good move. It will keep the pressure up until the election is called. Maybe even force the lnp to switch to fttdp
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
and copper will always be in the network
Until when? Labor will be ripping out copper at the earliest convenience. Liberals will be pretending they can cling to copper for decades (or else your darling MTM will be a write off).
Reality challenged, not?
And probably a good move. It will keep the pressure up until the election is called.
Given the Liberal Part didn't release their costings until what was it, 2 days before the last election, I don't think their supporters really have a right to demand anything from Labor.
I had to laugh at the 7:30 report last night. There was an interview with a resort owner who wanted high speed bb to supply Wi-Fi for his guests. Asked what speed he would like, he responded , 50mbs.
Now, I don't know how many guests he has at peak times. But I would say 50mbs wouldn't go close to supplying his Wi-Fi requirements.
It's a shared resource.
Even then the numbers were wrong, fully costed $29 billion, wait or is that $56 billion now?
Yup, as per my earlier point it still is their official policy until they formally change it. I'll also repeat that this policy is responsible for 95% of all customers on NBN today.
They did change it at last years ALP national conference. Point 48 https://lab15.org.au/files/Dr
They did change it at last years ALP national conference. Point 48 https://lab15.org.au/files/Dr
Fibre is the end game. A National Broadband Network for the 21st century will be rolled out across Australia, but because f the Coalition�s limited vision, it will now need to be built in two stages rather than one.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor can not reverse the current policy as the Coalition has ensured an MTM legacy forever
Yep. The Libs have created problems that will haunt us for decades. They will expensive to fix, and take far longer than if the job had been done properly in the first place. The best we can hope for now is that Labor can get in and at least improve on the mess that the Libs have created. If the government doesn't change, taxpayers will be footing the bill for decades, and Australia will remain as a broadband laggard instead of a leader as they would have been under Labor.
Both parties will be adopting FTTdp with the last 25-100M lead in being copper once trials tests are done by NBN.
The Libs wont let NBN Co change. They have to use the cheapest and nastiest option. Morrow has been in the press a lot lately saying his hands are tied by the government. Fifield has shown no interest in changing . Where are you getting your information that the Libs are now going with FTTdp?
Once FTTdp trials are finalised by NBN, FTTdp will be added to the mix. clare has never defended the below statement by Senator Fifield.
Fifield is just playing politics, pretending that Labor will use FTTdp because they agree with the MTM, when, as the ITNews article you quoted clearly states, the reality is that the Libs mess has gone too far for it to be easily changed. I am glad I am not in Clares shoes and potentially have to deal with the mess that Turnbull & Co has made.
Asked what speed he would like, he responded , 50mbs.
ABCnews dept firming backing Turnbull and his broadband policy. This would not have been an oversight.
he responded , 50mbs
I believe he said 50Mbps would be a good start and that would only be good for another 18 months to 2 years.
I specifically disliked how the FTTN could "simply" be upgraded, no word that any upgrade will cost almost as much as the original full fibre rollout.
I specifically disliked how the FTTN could "simply" be upgraded, no word that any upgrade will cost almost as much as the original full fibre rollout.
If you take the inflated price the Liberal Party claim Labor's FTTP would have cost versus what is being revealed as the true cost of their MTM, there isn't much meat left to fund the upgrade to fibre, same goes for install times.
Fast, cheaper, sooner is turning into, slower, more expensive and longer.
It won't be long before they can't even rely on "Well it would have been worse under Labor" if it's not already too late, and that myth is all they have left.
Again, the facts just aren't on their side. At least they can claim bias from the ABC like their supporters do when anyone, even The Project simply report the facts.
They did change it at last years ALP national conference. Point 48 https://lab15.org.au/files/Dr
I stand corrected, but at the same time isn't an override of a fibre based policy
I specifically disliked how the FTTN could "simply" be upgraded, no word that any upgrade will cost almost as much as the original full fibre rollout.
Or that their thinking is individuals will have to pay for those upgrades... eg. If you want fibre to the home, here is what we charge. If you can't afford it, get a better job.
I specifically disliked how the FTTN could "simply" be upgraded, no word that any upgrade will cost almost as much as the original full fibre rollout.
It's rubbish spin. Any change to FTTN will should be considered as a new build replacement. An upgrade would be defined by change of components, such as G-PON to XG-PON. FTTdP to FTTP could be argued as an upgrade due to changes at premise only.
New today:
"Australians downloaded 1.67 million terabytes of data over fixed-line broadband con-nections in the three months to 31 December 2015 a 50.4% year-on-year increase,"
This fraudband is quickly getting obsolete.
"It was also notable that FTTP was the fastest-growing access technology by number of connections, almost doubling from 324,000 subscribers at the end of December 2014 to 645,000 at the end of December 2015.
�The significant increase in usage over the NBN tells us the more bandwidth Australians have, the more content we want to consume,�
We did tell them so.
(Communications Day 7 Aprils 2016)
This fraudband is quickly getting obsolete.
do you think NBN will ever switchback to a FTTP model?
Even then the numbers were wrong, fully costed $29 billion, wait or is that $56 billion now?
Perhaps they had a dyslexic moment.
92 � 29 = 63
63 / 2 = 31.5
31.5 + 29 = 60.5
Did they split the difference and take a few numbers off? Is this how they have worked out their fully costed plan? Is this tin foil hat territory?
The answers in my opinion are possibly, possibly, probably.
The only reason Fifield wants the policy is so they can respond with one of their own. Hopefully Clare sits on it until the last possible moment.
Also the ABC 'could' investigate the NBN, the most they could do is imply that Turnbulls at fault not blame him. They are meant to be apolitical (even if it is just an illusion)
The network cannot stand still. If fibre is still the best option in the future then it will change to that model in time or the country goes down the gurgler
This country does amaze me -we complain there is too little long term planning but when Labor Party announces long term plans re broadband, education, health journalist complain to them saying how are you going to fund it past the "4 year forward estimates". The answer is of course "the same way we have funded everything since forever � taxes and earnings". No wonder we end up with the rubbish like Fraudband. We seems to have the attention span of a goldfish and the forward thinking ability of a fifteen year old.
do you think NBN will ever switchback to a FTTP model?
Under Labor the roll out of FTTN will be wound up and FTTP ramp up will recommence. Then we'll be left with the legacy of those FTTN connections and when to replace them and at what cost.
If the Libs are kicked out now, the damage will be relatively modest.
journalist complain to them saying how are you going to fund it past the "4 year forward estimates".
The problem with costing it over 4 years is that the NBN isn't designed to last that long. It's designed to last considerably longer, so it would in my mind be more accurate to cost the network over the current lifespan of the copper network.
nder Labor the roll out of FTTN will be wound up and FTTP ramp up will recommence. Then we'll be left with the legacy of those FTTN connections and when to replace them and at what cost.
That would be great � I think though they should roll out in Metro Melbourne/Sydney/Brisbane though. They would hit more homes in a much shorter timespan that most of the critique against the NBN (take up/homes passed etc) would be gone.
If the Libs are kicked out now, the damage will be relatively modest.
If that was the case (I suspect their damage is far more than just those already on FTTN), you can bet the Libs will spin it as Labor supporting their MTM model because of the existing FTTN installs.
The only reason Fifield wants the policy is so they can respond with one of their own. Hopefully Clare sits on it until the last possible moment.
There is another reason: the Vic Libs entered into contracts in the last months of government for the East West Link project with huge penalty clauses if the then opposition attempted to implement their alternate policy.
If Labor announce a policy before the Gvt goes into caretaker mode, the current gvt could act to ensure that alternative � whatever it is � becomes "too expensive".
Anyone else stoked that the Fraudband is finally getting the negative press it deserves? I think Waleed nailed his rant on the Project. I love the timing as well leading up to the election. I would love to see how the Libs try to blame Labor or cover it up.
I think Waleed nailed his rant on the Project.
I'm seeing quite a few WTF's re it from younger people on facebook to. Seems to have reached an audience that wouldn't normally be aware of this but who do actually care.
I had to laugh at the 7:30 report last night. There was an interview with a resort owner who wanted high speed bb to supply Wi-Fi for his guests.
This was Coco Bay Resort at Noosaville which is only little over a km from where my parents live. As this is an FTTN area so I wish him good luck with the "nodelotto" draw although I would doubt the distances would be too great considering the density of units in the immediate area.
I liked how he pointed out that the NBN for him (and everyone else in the area) keeps getting pushed back � Noosaville was one of the suburbs that was announced in the 18 month plan early last year to some fanfare and then silently dropped off the plan 4 months later (jxeeno reported on the total list of areas that were dropped like this in his blog).
The area is now scheduled for its first RFS to be in 1H17 with last RFS in 1H18. I bet you in both cases if they keep to this it will be June 2017 and June 2018 respectively.
I think Waleed nailed his rant on the Project.
It'll be interesting to see if he gets slapped down for this. If he doesn't, it's reasonable to assume that the media owners have (belatedly) come to the realisation that the future of content delivery is the internet. Bigger pipes = more content = more profit, and especially good if someone else (i.e. the tax payer) pays for the pipes.
The LNP could be in for a truck load of butt hurt.
You really are last to know.. Last 2 Know..
Keep up man.. You are way behind..:)
It'll be interesting to see if he gets slapped down for this. If he doesn't, i
It was well prepared. I'm sure his boards would have approved it.
It'll be interesting to see if he gets slapped down for this
I think we are seeing a shift in mainstream media reporting of the NBN, just in the last few weeks. Even the ABC is getting on board (ok 7:30 last night was terrible, but they did a better job on Lateline a few weeks back and Tony Jones followed it up (briefly) on Q&A when Ed Husic was on). I hope the trend continues.
Not that 'The Project' is exactly a reputable source of news but I found this video interesting, criticising Liberal's implementation of the NBN network.
https://www.facebook.com/th
3,100 reactions.. Wow..
https://delimiter.com.au/201
Call to arms: Budde says FTTdp NBN needs our support.
Independent telecommunications consultant Paul Budde has called for Australians to do more to ensure the rollout a �future-proof� NBN that includes a full-fibre network (including FTTdp) rather than the fibre and copper mix that is currently being promoted by government.
As a potential solution to all of this, Budde suggested that FTTdp could be used and still be classified as a �multi-mix technology�.
However, �I am not sure is that is enough to persuade the PM to open the door to using FTTdp rather than FttN,� he said.
�There is now a chance for us to ensure that Australia will get a much more future-proof NBN and we should not miss the opportunity to at least try and make this happen,� Budde concluded.
3,100 reactions.. Wow..
So many angry LNP supporters � all blaming the ALP but have no answer when 25mbs/2016/29.5 billion is bought up!
Not to mention the lack of roi as well!
Waleed Aly on The Project #WhoToBlame
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAA4XCmaNk
Youtube version for those with crummy internet.
The pro Liberal ABCNews dept
We have seen that with other NBN items as well, as good as regurgitation of Ministerial press releases. It is getting worse though, I posted recently how ABC is cutting ALP or even Press Club presentations statements/interviews short to cut to other items coincidentally LNP spokespeople (often regurgitating prepared statements heard a number of times previously). This morning again Tony Burke stepped up to make a statement on education and before he got started wham off to another item.... Is the ABC becoming increasingly the free LNP political advert company?
The risk for NBN is in getting the right message out will be a challenge, even with the revelations in FTTN delays, failure of technology, non suitability etc. The Waleed Aly The Project news item is remarkable in that respect � should be much more of it.
So many angry LNP supporters � all blaming the ALP
They also asuume those supporting Aleed are alp supporters. Not necessarily so. I'm not an alp supporter, but like many on fb, they also know a dud mtm policy when they see it.
So many angry LNP supporters � all blaming the ALP
I don't go near Facebook (all FB domains are 0.0.0.0 in my hosts file), but am curious on what basis, if they viewed the Project story, they can blame the ALP ? The ALP NBN was no where near over budget or behind in the same way the MTM version. Ideology trumping facts ?
https://delimiter.com.au/201
�Mongrel network�: Waleed Aly consigns Turnbull�s MTM NBN to the trash
Ludlam stated:
�Instead of futureproofing the country with an end-to-end fibre network we would use a bit of copper, a bit of HFC, some satellites, some wireless towers�we would have this mongrel network big parts of which would be obsolete on the day they are built and will need to be torn up and replaced with the kind of end-to-end fibre network that this parliament legislated for.�
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Both parties will be adopting FTTdp with the last 25-100M lead in being copper once trials tests are done by NBN.
Why?
What has changed?
Why isn't FTTN good enough for now?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Both parties will be adopting FTTdp with the last 25-100M
From LNP point of view what a backflip in admitting fibre all the way is best, eh??? Getting fibre as close to the premises is now a necessity as FTTN/MTM is a failure � and they are admitting that. Shame lots of taxpayer money is wasted playing political games.
Do it right the first time Zealot � the only way! FTTP is cheaper (built all the way not just half the way) , will be built sooner and so so so much better....for decades....Join the 21st century for a while....
Why?
What has changed?
Why isn't FTTN good enough for now?
What's changed? Public sentiment, that's what.
For whatever reason, the dam wall has burst and the media are finally reporting on the NBN in a critical way, and, more importantly, in a way ordinary voters can understand. So whilst nothing has really changed on the ground, the whole politics surrounding the NBN have changed dramatically in the last few weeks and I don't see them becoming any more favourable to the government unless they make a proactive switch to FttDP.
I suspect the Government will start the distraction campaign to avoid the NBN becoming an election issue.
The question is what will it be.
You are already seeing defence, security asylum seekers and unions � all the fear factors. Voters when in fear mode don't change their votes historically...Tampa ring a bell? Oddly the election hasn't been announced officially yet LNP have pulled out last resort issues already � they do need to be very worried though even at this stage.
NBN will not rank unless ssensational revelations come to the fore. I'd like to think that a PM, professing to be a great economic and financial manager, oversighting a doubling of his fully costed NBN Plan from $29.5B to $56B might be a 'sensation' worth reporting to viewers/readers and something Turnbull be accountable for particularly when there is a (so called by LNP) 'debt crisis' and a 'spending cut' agenda. Totally contradictory positions but unreported....unquestioned...?
One can only hope there is more of the Waleed Aly (The Project) items on NBN with the facts presented in simple terms. Facts always win if they can get to the people.
I specifically disliked how the FTTN could "simply" be upgraded, no word that any upgrade will cost
How simple a question for any journo with half a brain � and how much more will that cost on top of the current $56B...didn't that start at $29.5B?..and what else can we expect to increase that even more? How does that compare with the original NBN at $43B?
Imagine if this was a private enterprise with share holders..
A CEO leads a company down a dead end road for 4 years spending multi-billions of dollars on a dead end technology which they are already changing..
Yeah he would be out on his arse before that sentenced finished
How simple a question for any journo with half a brain � and how much more will that cost on top of the current $56B...didn't that start at $29.5B?..and what else can we expect to increase that even more? How does that compare with the original NBN at $43B?
I've been disappointed that journalists approach comparative costs and miss the real issue: the ROI. The return on investment was 7% over 10 years for Labor's 93% FTTP rollout. Mitch Fifield, Morrow et al never mention the ROI for their clown fest.
Don't mention the ROI: return on investment.
Don't mention the war.
Don't mention the upload.
Don't mention the war.
Waleed Aly on The Project #WhoToBlame
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAA4XCmaNk
Youtube version for those with crummy internet.
can everyone please share this video with their FaceBook friends & family and Twitter followers and ask them re-share this video with their networks?
I reckon if everyone does this we can make sure Aussies know how badly Malcolm TurnCoat has shafted us by destroying the NBN and it will help kick him out by showing ppl he�s not fit to lead!
I'm seeing quite a few WTF's re it from younger people on facebook to
In the interests of NBN FTTP going in the right directions share that Waleed Aly item on your own Facebook pages.... everyone in Australia deserves to know facts.
Radlink (http://www.radlink.com.au/se
Looks like they're connecting the large Telstra square pits next to footpaths.
So looks like build prep has commenced where no 'official' indication to the start via progress reports has been given. NoneButNutsosFAILTM
http://www.businessinsider.c
Harry Tucker response..
Waleed Aly's NBN takedown missed these critical points
While Aly�s popular show brings a somewhat technical debate alive for to the average punter, he�s missed some crucial points, especially the biggest one: rollout speed.
While he probably isn�t wrong, what he missed is that the full fibre debate is dead. It�s gone.
Neither party is going to go ahead with a full fibre rollout anymore, so any debate around it is beating a dead horse.
When it comes to the actual technology of choice, Aly was better off pointing to fibre to the distribution point (FTTdp) technology, which has become a viable, cheaper option.
So stop arguing over the tech. It�s time to bring both the politicians and NBN CEO Bill Morrow to account over why it�s taking so damned long.
I've been disappointed that journalists approach comparative costs and miss the real issue: the ROI. The return on investment was 7% over 10 years for Labor's 93% FTTP rollout.
I keep saying it: the ROI on the 93% fibre was north of 10%, the 7% ROI was *after* taking the losses on fixed wireless and sat. The ROI in the 90% of the fixed line footprint MTM can reach is higher again. The Optus leak projected an ROI of 12.5%, even with the inflated CPP and double counting conduit lease costs.
Just one of many comments � I'd like to think there are a lot more that think this way. No doubt if more knew the real facts they would...
" im a right wing conservative and wouldnt vote Labour without a gun to my head but the Liberals have got it wrong here, we should have stumped up the cash for fibre the whole way, yes its expensive but there are direct correlations to GDP growth and speed of internet, i have no idea why they stopped at the node"
You really are last to know.. Last 2 Know..
Go easy � that was Sydney Morning Herald article with lots of comments supporting FTTP and very few not....
Good post IMO.
i have no idea why they stopped at the node"
Self inflicted voting injury.
Follow the party and ignore the policies seems to be the theme of some voters really.
Imagine if this was a private enterprise with share holders..
A CEO leads a company down a dead end road for 4 years spending multi-billions of dollars on a dead end technology which they are already changing..
but NBN Co IS a Government Business Enterprise, equivalent in almost all respects to a private company responsible to the same regulators. The major difference is the only shareholders are the Minister for Communications and Finance � on behalf of taxpayers.
In normal circumstances the shareholders could call for an extraordinary meeting if they are concerned. The problem here is that the shareholders are complicit with the failure to perform appropriately. In fact the shareholders have been directing the GBE, in Abbott's words and Turnbull's actions, to destroy the NBN...... Royal Commission required?
The fact the ABC had to use a Milk Transport company to say the current so called pretend NBN will be adequate says it all really.
The debate isn't about current needs, it is about future needs. Whether FTTN is adequate for a milk tanker today is not the question, it is whether it is adequate for for future needs.
This really annoys me about much of the media coverage.
- FTTN vs FTTP bandwidth is an argument about future requirements.
- FTTN vs FTTP availability (sooner or later) is an argument about broadband blackspots or under served areas.
Those that would demand a FTTN connection sooner than a FTTP need to consider the second point. They are effectively stating they are under served.
My biggest concern with FTTN is we are going to create a vast number of "under served" premises in the future. The importance of broadband to businesses and individuals in the future will only get greater than now. This means that FTTN will dramatically amplify the issues that exist today IMHO.
That's why this whole discussion is ridiculous and classic politics. When a government is losing traction and has only delivered 50,000 customers on their policy over 3 years then they need a distraction. The classic distraction is say where is the opposition policy.
If I was Clare I would respond with...
95% of end users connected during the LNP term as government have been connected to the ALP's NBN. The current government policy is a shambles and now they are desperately wanting us to do their homework for them.
We are not going to allow the LNP to cheat and copy our homework, the broadband policy of the previous government has proven to be the only effective one. Sure we had some initial problems, but we will focus on building on the initial good work of NBN Co rather than changing direction and loosing focus... which is the mistake Malcolm Turnbull has made with the MTM.
Radlink (http://www.radlink.com.au/se
Looks like they're connecting the large Telstra square pits next to footpaths.
My understanding that anything to do with NBN has to be Green Fibre
You are way behind..:)
Sorry, just got here, whats this NBN everyone seems to be talking about :)
When it comes to the actual technology of choice, Aly was better off pointing to fibre to the distribution point (FTTdp) technology, which has become a viable, cheaper option.
So stop arguing over the tech. It�s time to bring both the politicians and NBN CEO Bill Morrow to account over why it�s taking so damned long.
What Tucker and so many other have missed is that there is *NO* upgrade path from FTTN. That alone should rule it out.
Harry Tucker response..
Waleed Aly's NBN takedown missed these critical points
what he missed is that the full fibre debate is dead. It�s gone.
Neither party is going to go ahead with a full fibre rollout anymore, so any debate around it is beating a dead horse.
Tucker should get his facts right by reading the ALP Policy and last years ALP national conference. Point 48 https://lab15.org.au/files/Dr
More difficult to achieve full fibre but not dead at all....
NBN CEO Bill Morrow to account over why it�s taking so damned long.
Nothing to do with the three year hiatus in the FTTP roll out introduced by our wonderful PM.
If they'd actually ramped up as originally planned, FTTP would be into the millions by now.
More difficult to achieve full fibre but not dead at all....
Do you really think if elected they will resurrect FTTP? or will they move to FTTdP
http://www.zdnet.com/article
At least the lawyers are happy
Do you really think if elected they will resurrect FTTP? or will they move to FTTdP
While Labor would not be able to return to the original full-fibre NBN model, Clare said that �Fibre-to-the-Node will be gone. It�s not a question of if this will happen, it�s when it will happen and how it will be done.�
Vote for Labor, vote for fibre: Jason Clare
I keep saying it: the ROI on the 93% fibre was north of 10%, the 7% ROI was *after* taking the losses on fixed wireless and sat.
So what are you suggesting?
Anyone have a history of rollout statistics?
I'm asking because I would like to know if rollout has slowed. I'm thinking MTMco are trying to make the current HFC network the only option by delaying as much as possible.
Anyone have a history of rollout statistics?
You can check the weekly premises stats on the NBN Co website.
You'll find that the rollout hasn't been slowed down.
You'll find that the rollout hasn't been slowed down.
The rollout was slowed down as soon as Turnbull got into power. There should be far more connections than there are now. There are no FTTN or HFC connections to talk of, and so the only real runs NBN Co are getting is still thanks to Labors FTTP. Seriously awkward coming into an election wouldn't you say Kingforce? No doubt Turnbull and Fifield will wave the three year plan around to try and trick voters at election time again? Oh wait, there is no three year plan is there? That was supposed to be out months ago. Another target NBN Co failed to meet.
Clare said that �Fibre-to-the-Node will be gone. It�s not a question of if this will happen, it�s when it will happen and how it will be done.�
What will happen to those already with fttn will they get upgraded to fttp after ALP wins the election?
What will happen to those already with fttn will they get upgraded to fttp after ALP wins the election?
Clare hasn't been specific. We have to wait until Labor releases their full policy.
I love it, his definitely getting information from this post =D.
Lets arm him with more information and facts, so they can Slam that MT prick.
If they'd actually ramped up as originally planned, FTTP would be into the millions by now.
Around 4M if I recall correctly....
Do you really think if elected they will resurrect FTTP? or will they move to FTTdP
To do anything else but FTTP would be political madness for a start � they would give the LNP opportunity for FUD on backflip etc Plus it is just dumb not to.
FTTdp was always a consideration in original plan afaik for particular hard to get to areas so it is not a revelation just more so the LNP have dug themselves in a hole with FTTN which is proving a failure and this is now a priority for them. They (LNP) of course politically risk being attacked as backflipping as well having spent many wasted dollars on FTTN/MTM as sunk asset. Let's face it only real difference in simple terms is the street pit to inside the house.
Will LNP really try to sell the FTTdp line we are delivering NBN to you the householder cheaper (for NBN CO) as long as you pay a few grand (which is in fact a lot more than if NBN CO did it as part of the build) to finish it off? How can that make any sense ??
There should be far more connections than there are now.
As you know, NBN Co have met all major targets set out in their corporate plan for six quarters in a row.
Seriously awkward coming into an election wouldn't you say Kingforce?
Don't know. That's for voters to decide. In any case NBN Co satisfaction surveys show that many MTM end users are reasonably happy.
Oh wait, there is no three year plan is there?
It aint a great look but, again, it's up for voters to decide.
But those waiting for the NBN should get accurate information. There should be no false expectations. When Labor was running NBN Co they consistently handed out inaccurate schedules.
At least the lawyers are happy
'Vultures' usually are gnawing at a carcass...that it happens to be a convenient political football called NBN makes it even more valuable to them. Every twist is a bonus.... They owe Turnbull and Abbott heaps, eh?
What will happen to those already with fttn will they get upgraded to fttp after ALP wins the election?
It will be replaced but timing is key. Logic would suggest where FTTP architecture can incorporate FTTN build to date they will try to over build.
I'd expect once they can get the design drawings they will match up to original FTTP architecture and design. Logistics and cost will be key factors
Harry Tucker response..
Waleed Aly's NBN takedown missed these critical points
Harry also missed a crucial point in that the Liberal Party need to be forever remembered as the reason why a full Fibre roll out is no longer an option.
http://www.lightreading.com/
Docsis 3.1 hype is over. FTTH is the main focus for investors
Around 4M if I recall correctly....
Thanks
I like to hear that every time labor talk about what they will do in the future.
But those waiting for the NBN should get accurate information. There should be no false expectations.
Ha Ha HA HA ha!!!!! One better not wait on current NBN CO for any of that then should they....
False expectations? remember Turnbull's 2013 ready to go fully costed Plan that double d in cost to $56B and took two and a half years to start....and already in six months has six months delays for parts of that, had cost blowouts in $B's since then and doesn't work....hmmmmm? false expectations?....good one Kingy!
LNP perception factory is wonderously exceptional..... you on that team Kingy?
As you know, NBN Co have met all major targets set out in their corporate plan for six quarters in a row.
As we all know, Trunbull low-balled the targets as soon as he got in, so there is no way possible they couldn't meet them. That isn't a good thing. It highlights, once again, what a poor policy it is. Regardless, where is the supporting data to show they are meeting their low-balled targets? Leaks from NBN Co show they are way behind.
Don't know. That's for voters to decide.
You are the one making claims about how wonderfully the rollout is going. Its up to you to substantiate that. Pointing the finger somewhere else and trying to shift blame doesn't achieve anything. Its a shame the Libs and their supporters haven't worked that out yet. Fifield and Turnbull keep embarrassing themselves every time they do it, just as his supporters do. They should have real answers, not embarrassed diversions.
It aint a great look but, again, it's up for voters to decide.
Come on! How can you give them a free ride on everything? Ask some hard questions of NBN Co and the Libs! They are in government wasting billions of taxpayer dollars, and you don't give a rats blunt end, because its the Libs doing it. Appalling.
EDIT
But those waiting for the NBN should get accurate information. So why aren't you making huige noises about NBN Co not releasing the necessary information? They were supposed to be open and transparent. The only way we find things out is via gilling by Conroy in Senate estimates or by leaks. People were bleating about NBN Co incompetence under Labor if they missed a reporting deadline by a day. NBN co now constantly miss reporting targets or don't release the reports at all, and not a peep from the bleaters. Pretty clear what their true motivation is right Kingforce?
False expectations? remember Turnbull's 2013 ready to go fully costed Plan that double d in cost to $56B
You should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
But those waiting for the NBN should get accurate information. There should be no false expectations.
How do you account for the quarterly report being three months late and counting?
You should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
Why? Comedy value?
What Tucker and so many other have missed is that there is *NO* upgrade path from FTTN. That alone should rule it out.
What is also points out is ridiculous. I don't give a flying flap if it takes 2 years longer to get FTTP to our premises. As long as we are guaranteed to get FTTP and "see light at the end of the tunnel".
When Labor was running NBN Co they consistently handed out inaccurate schedules.
25mbs by 2016 for 29.5 billion tells us all we need to know about the lnp.
Wrong on all counts and doesn't provide an roi � what a mess.
There is also no fully costed business plan and the rollout information has been taken down.
It's now less transparent
should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
Somewhat discredited once they established that it is based on a lower run rate than what NBN was already achieving and factored in no ramp up or efficiency gains.
Just maybe Labor and Liberal will adopt the exact same policy on Sc. 4 w FTTdp and we can finally achieve bipartisanship (and then we can blame them both)
http://www.businessinsider.c
Uh no he didnt miss any critical points. He clearly said 1:40 in the video, that it was supposed to be delievered to everyone by 2019, then 2020 30 seconds or so later. Thats not to even begin saying we were supposed to have everyone connected to 25mbps by 2016 origianlly. So im writing a letter to the editor being this
About your article on the NBN. I don't really want to sound biased but even under this new government. The rollout isnt getting any faster, and anytime they are confronted they reply with commercial in confidence. Forgive me if i don't believe a single word coming out of their mouths when they kept trying to lead the senate away from conversations about the NBN with that lame excuse.
The fact of the matter is, i could wait a bit longer if it gave us more future proofing to our internet. The rollout isn't even going faster, they are passing through areas, not actually connecting people. Their numbers arent even accurate, alot of them are from FTTP installations and anyone on FTTN has been complaining since day one. Now my area was designated for FTTP late last year, early this year and now because of the new government, we are getting fixed wireless, the second worst option on the NBN list that is easily affected by the elements (rain etc). Forgive me for hating on the idiots who pretty much destroyed my dreams of having faster net and being able to do something with it career unless i move god knows where.
And you are wrong, he did touch on the rollout speed. We were promised 25mbps MINIMUM by the end of 2016 to ALL Australians. Then it was 2019 and now its 2020, 1 year shorter than Labors future proofing network estimate.
The MTM is a failure that will forever stain Australian history and it will be on Turnbulls head that he ruined Australias chance at catching up or even beating the world.
I urge you all to write to him
http://eftm.com.au/2016/04/i
Let�s hold the NBN team to account for their current plan � the dates they�ve set. That�s really all we should be focussed on.
This is also a load of crap, they are already failing to meet their times
You should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
And whose fault is that? Stop deflecting and just accept who is to blame and how much they've also screwed up. All their justifications thrown out the window because they've done a worse job at delivering a worse product.
The response to the factual account of Turnbull's performance, the cost and time blow outs on apparently a fully costed policy is not to bring up Labor or point to an even bigger number to fix the previous mentioned mess.
Harry also missed a crucial point in that the Liberal Party need to be forever remembered as the reason why a full Fibre roll out is no longer an option.
Yep. The Libs destroyed Labors NBN are Abbott wanted. We will see Fifield, Kingofrce etc claim that Labor now supports the Libs policy. The extremely sad reality is that the Libs have created such a messy quagmire now that it makes returning to the more sensible FTTP model nigh on impossible. We already have FTTN being rolled out to some poor suckers for example.
Lets look at the reality of how we got here. The Libs inherited a well thought out policy, with a business case that stacked up and a rollout that was well underway and just about to hit its stride and they decimated it. Clare will inherit an absolute dogs breakfast, that cant pay for itself, and uses inferior technology that will need upgrading within a very short timeframe , and have to do the best he can to fix the mess, and get Australia moving forward again in the broadband stakes..
You wouldn't want to be Jason Clare for quids!
connected to 25mbps by 2016
You see this is where everybody is wrong!
Get your magnifying glasses out, Liberals plan said 2 POINT 5 mbps (2.5mbps) by 2016.
Job achieved! Victory!
They are in government wasting billions of taxpayer dollars, and you don't give a rats blunt end, because its the Libs doing it.
What difference does it make? Australia wants the NBN finished. The government is giving exactly what the people want.
If the Coalition were looking after the nation's interests it would cut back the scope of the MTM (to about 60% of premises), directly fund the satellite and fixed wireless rollout, and prepare NBN Co for break-up before immediate privatisation.
A PwC report suggests losses of around $20 billion on the MTM.
To fill that black hole the government should introduce an NBN tax, cut back services or introduce other imaginative levies (such as a tax on mobile use).
This will never happen though because the Australian people do not want it.
You should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
Where is this figure from?
Where is this figure from?
It's from the same place that erfman pulled his $56 billion figure from. The 2016 Corporate Plan.
As you know, NBN Co have met all major targets set out in their corporate plan for six quarters in a row.
As you know, that is pure fantasy.
In any case NBN Co satisfaction surveys show that many MTM end users are reasonably happy.
This is even more fantastic.
But those waiting for the NBN should get accurate information.
So are you agitating for nbn� to actually release information, so that the adults can plan how to restart the NBN rollout?
When Labor was running NBN Co they consistently handed out inaccurate schedules.
More fantasy.
You should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
Yes, it should be quoted as yet another example of falsified figures put out by this government and current nbn� management.
Australia wants the NBN finished.
Exactly, so why on earth are this government and nbn� doing everything they can to avoid finishing the NBN?
The government is giving exactly what the people want.
LOL, so your position is that the people actually want to be lied to?
What difference does it make?
It makes a huge difference if you want to be taken seriously. You cant come in here continually whinging about what Labor isn't doing, and yet completely ignore everything that the Libs are doing. Hard questions need to be asked about why they are making such a mess. At every opportunity you refuse to ask those hard questions. The Libs are in power � they are the only ones who can change policy right now. Time to let the political motivation go, and address the real issues with what the government and NBN Co are doing.
The government is giving exactly what the people want.
Rubbish. Where is there evidence that people want the MTM? The polls on the NBN show that the public prefer Labors model.
If the Coalition were looking after the nation's interests it would cut back the scope of the MTM (to about 60% of premises), directly fund the satellite and fixed wireless rollout, and prepare NBN Co for break-up before immediate privatisation.
That would not be looking after the nations interests.
A PwC report suggests losses of around $20 billion on the MTM.
That would be conservative. So what aren't you questioning why they are doing what they are doing instead of desperately redirecting to Labor? Labor cant fix this governments policy in opposition. This government need to answer for their pig headed mistakes.
This will never happen though because the Australian people do not want it.
It will never happen because its a bad idea. People never want new taxes. They do want the NBN though, and they still want Labor's version of it. Sadly this government has wrecked their chances of getting that. Its a mixed, expensive mess now for a long time.
What difference does it make? Australia wants the NBN finished. The government is giving exactly what the people want.
In name only, for almost the same cost and no sooner.
The MTM is a totaly failure that will need upgrading anyway.
Vote for Labor, vote for fibre: Jason Clare
Good to see you've finally come round to a sensible position Kingee. Congratulations.
It's from the same place that erfman pulled his $56 billion figure from. The 2016 Corporate Plan.
I thought it might have been from somewhere that had independently analysed and determined the figure. Vertigan et. al. are, as we all know, rubbery figures. The fact that they wouldn't release their underlying assumptions should speak volumes shouldn't it Kingforce? Morrow is saying the cost of rolling out fibre is dramatically decreasing. Where has that been factored in to your figure? Is Morrow wrong?
As you know, NBN Co have met all major targets set out in their corporate plan for six quarters in a row.
Yep I can chalk a line on the ground and jump over it. Setting the bar really, really low is not a major target. Particularly when everything that has contributed to NBN� meeting these targets is because of the good work NBNCo did under Labor.
You cant come in here continually whinging about what Labor isn't doing, and yet completely ignore everything that the Libs are doing.
But yet he does and continues too ....... and the mods continue to allow his trolling ....... (whoops did I just say trolling on Whirlpool?) ...... well hush my mouth!
What difference does it make? Australia wants the NBN finished. The government is giving exactly what the people want.
No their not. They are giving Australia the dogs breakfast noodle network to nowhere, better know as Malcolm Turnbull's Mess (MTM). The people want the real NBN!
If the Coalition were looking after the nation's interests
They would never have gone with mtm in the first place.
A PwC report suggests losses of around $20 billion on the MTM.
And a completed FTTP based NBN would be a very valuble asset. Of course selling all Govt assets for short term gain is a very right wing thing to do. Even selling govt buildings and leasing them back seems to be popular now.
To fill that black hole the government should introduce an NBN tax, cut back services or introduce other imaginative levies (such as a tax on mobile use).
Also another right wing response. Perhaps a better option would be to do the opposite, and improve profit generating services to encourage people to purchase them more? Improve the outcomes of Govt funded projects by enforcing reasonable governance and accountability? At every point, look at how can they improve the service while reducing the costs.
They are not a publicly listed company who needs to be asset poor and gross income rich.
This will never happen though because the Australian people do not want it.
Some people believed that Turnbull could deliver "faster", "quicker", "cheaper" and "more trnasparent". Turnbull delivered on none of these.
There is not even a reasonable comparison in speed each is able to deliver.
The delivery date is slipping, even with the addition of HFC which should have taken years off.
Cost is repeatedly blowing out, and that does not take into account the dramaticly higher operating costs, the ongoing upgrade costs, and the complete lack of resale value.
More transparent? Only if you re-define the word.
But it is not a broken promise, as TA said you cannot hold a LNP politician to a promise made while in opposition.
To fill that black hole the government should introduce an NBN tax, cut back services or introduce other imaginative levies
Or not waste the $$$ of the already over-taxed zombie workers, which both parties have fun doing. For once the proper NBN was actually looking like a change for the good.
You should also quote the $74 billion figure for a switch back to FTTP.
Please quote source, and please not the discredited SR and CBA � no-one buy you believes the data in those.
You might care to predict the additional cost to overbuild FTTN/MTM to meet Turnbull's expectations and Morrow's comments that FTTP is the end game. Please include FTTdp cost which are currently absent as well......
Do you understand the concept of opportunity cost? Apply that, if you do, to lost contribution to GDP and lost ROI by doing FTTN/MTM.....add those in as well, for the next 60 years......not just to 2020.
In name only
Yep! current NBN is an apparition... vapourware...not National , not broadband, not a network � simply patchwork
Yep! current NBN is an apparition... vapourware...not National , not broadband, not a network � simply patchwork
it is a Frankenstein's Monster
it is a horse designed by a committee, no wait, it is actually a camel designed by a committee
I am sick of having a distributor-less ignition system in my cars. I am going back to the ol Distributor and points ignition system. And fuel injection that's going in the bin as well.
Throwing out the starter motor as well going back to hand cranking.
Also back to drum brakes too.
Totally MTM'ing my cars.
Only way forward.
Only way forward.
Smoke signals, living in a cave and leeches are good enough for me
It's a 21st Century Dialup network!
Oooo ouch.
If only we could get 50 free hour CDs in... Magazines? Do they still have them?
It's a 21st Century Dialup network!
Using Victorian Era tech for the last mile.
#steampunknbn
What will happen to those already with fttn will they get upgraded to fttp after ALP wins the election?
I don't think you have to be a genius to realise that FttN areas will not be touched until the remainder of the rollout has been finished. Then something may be done, but not before.
don't think you have to be a genius to realise that FttN areas will not be touched until the remainder of the rollout has been finished. Then something may be done, but not before.
Agreed. But how many FFTN areas are actually done? The fact it is so far behind may be a good thing for Australia. But then we have those pesky signed contracts to worry about....
If the Coalition were looking after the nation's interests it would cut back the scope of the MTM (to about 60% of premises)
If they cared even 1% about the nations interests they would have quit politics entirely.
Their plans for the country get more bizarre by the day, and either involve massive funding cuts to things people actually need like schools and hospitals, or sabotaging anything sensible like the FTTP NBN or closing tax routing by corporations in favour of something that looses money or is too much effort (MTM's replacing old copper, or taxing every single item that comes through the postal service).
A PwC report suggests losses of around $20 billion on the MTM.
Which is why everyone told them using the crappy copper was a bad idea, but no they wouldn't listen to the actual experts.
Simple solution, tax all the companies that donate to the Liberals, until the $20 billion is repaid.
But then we have those pesky signed contracts to worry about....
Perhaps/surely they could be canceled because they were not done by the due date.
I know if my MTM multi terrible mix pizza was really late I would just cancel it and pay nothing to the shop.lol
Agreed. But how many FFTN areas are actually done? The fact it is so far behind may be a good thing for Australia. But then we have those pesky signed contracts to worry about....
Any work that was started, even if they're still in the Fibre stage, would need to be completed at spec (aka FTTN) otherwise as you say contractual issues but you'd also think it would need redesigning at cost, it's just a nightmare.
If only the Government were as ineffective/incompetents with their NBN changes as they have been with so many other policies the lasting damage may be minimised, but that's not the case.
Abbott and Turnbull should be handing their heads in shame.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
Perhaps/surely they could be canceled because they were not done by the due date.
I know if my MTM multi terrible mix pizza was really late I would just cancel it and pay nothing to the shop.lol
I'd imagine they'd be stupid enough to take a cheaper price on the contact with huge penalties for breaking/changing them. Long term projects love those clauses when dealing with Governments.
I've worked for a company that did just that for the QLD State Government. When Newman was turfed and the contract abandoned they got more money than the original contact was worth without having to do more than 10% of the work...
It's a joke.
They would never have gone with mtm in the first place.
But in 2013 it was all going to be faster, cheaper and quicker � what's not to like about that?
And of course it was all fully planned and costed, so completely ready to go.
Meanwhile back here in 2016, there still appears to be virtually nothing to show for the MTM brouhaha, while the cost estimates have all gone through the roof. Thank God the adults are now in charge . . .
Some people believed that Turnbull could deliver "faster", "quicker", "cheaper" and "more transparent". Turnbull delivered on none of these.
Gosh. Who would have thought it?
Australia wants the NBN finished.
Pretty sure I've asked this before, and pretty sure I'll get the same answer (none):
Define "finished." Both parties have presented fibre to the vast majority of premises as the end goal. Does rolling out twice achieve this faster, and, if so, how?
But how many FFTN areas are actually done?
The latest corporate plan forecast for FttN RFS FY2016 is 500K. For FY2017 it is 2035K.
But then we have those pesky signed contracts to worry about.
As we all know, contracts can be renegotiated. Many of the suppliers of existing contracts for FttN can provide the goods and services required for FttP. Provided any contract change delivers the same value, and covers the suppliers for any expenditure commitments they have made that cannot be unwound, I don't see any real impediment to changing the mix.
nbn current management have made much noise about being technology agnostic. The truth will be in the flexibility of the contracts they enter into.
Bill Shorten is doing a 2 hour Q&A type thing on Sky News. He was asked about the NBN and Labor's policy, his response was something like (I am obviously paraphrasing): "Not everything the Liberal government does is bad, we will be keeping some of their stuff but adding a little more fibre. We will release our policy shortly". Did not fill me with a lot of confidence.
"Not everything the Liberal government does is bad, we will be keeping some of their stuff but adding a little more fibre. We will release our policy shortly".
this is simply politics for "We need the moronic swing voters that voted Libtard last time"
So what are you suggesting?
NBN's ROI of FTTP is (at least) 12.5%, not 7%.
Of all nbn�'s MTM technology options, FTTP it is by far the best performing financially and arguably the only option able to make profit.
And if mtm continues, those 650 000 fttp premisis will be seen to have a premium service compared to everyone else and will end up paying... IE telsra velocity estates...
LNP shill: "No-one wants or cares about high-speed fibre. Look at the huge percentage of people who are only signing up to the 12/5 speed tier."
LNP shill: "Everyone is demanding that the NBN be completed as quickly as possible, so re-using the existing copper is the right choice."
However, we have not yet seen protesters outside parliament, brandishing placards and shouting "What do we want ?! The lowest dirt-level broadband that's not really any better than our current ADSL ! When do we want it ?! Like freakin' yesterday, ya bastards !!"
(P.S. Those figures for 12/5 speed tier take-up are of course mainly due to the underhand tactics being employed by Telstra, and Optus, on people with next to no knowledge of what the NBN involves (and who don't even state a speed tier), combined of course with the 12/5 fixed wireless roll-out.)
If the Coalition were looking after the nation's interests it would cut back the scope of the MTM (to about 60% of premises), directly fund the satellite and fixed wireless rollout, and prepare NBN Co for break-up before immediate privatisation.
A PwC report suggests losses of around $20 billion on the MTM.
Am I seeing things? is @KingForce really criticising the Liberals's MTM policy here ??? :-)
I will say this � and I can't quite believe I'm saying it � IMHO the (one and only) thing KingForce's alternate policy suggestion has going for it is that's vastly superior to the Lib's current abomination of a policy.
I would be (genuinely) very curious to know which premises are in the 60% though.
He said "greater proportion of fibre"
My apologies, I was going from memory. I do have it recorded on IQ, so can go and rewatch. But in watching it the first time, it seemed like he was getting people used to the idea that the ALP's policy won't be a whole lot different to the Coalitions. Maybe I am just being pessimistic...
Their plans for the country get more bizarre by the day
Be surprised but I'm sure you will find LNP are ideologically following what Cameron is already doing in UK..... They are doing that increasingly with FTTN/MTM, devolving federal responsibilities down the line � can't get blamed for any problems then, can they? � no accountability, just be the banker....
He said "greater proportion of fibre"
I could see them using one of the amended versions of NG-PON2 being deployed.
Using flexible "pay as you grow" TWDM technology, that could also support FTTB or FTTdP for the few copper fans out there. PDF with more info that isn't too technical.
is @KingForce really criticising the Liberals's MTM policy here ?
Not really, he's promoting Vertigan's loony fringe "unsubsidised rollout" to make the current MTM disaster seem rational (which was no doubt why it was included in the CBA farce to begin with � to allow Turnbull to reject it).
http://www.afr.com/news/
I would be (genuinely) very curious to know which premises are in the 60% though.
High profit city premises (where the profit goes to the individual cherry picking telcos).
Bill Shorten is doing a 2 hour Q&A type thing on Sky News. He was asked about the NBN and Labor's policy, his response was something like (I am obviously paraphrasing): "Not everything the Liberal government does is bad, we will be keeping some of their stuff but adding a little more fibre. We will release our policy shortly". Did not fill me with a lot of confidence.
Like I have said and Shorten confirmed that the MTM will forever be around as per below startling admission.
Both parties will pretty much have the same policy and that is the MTM.
The opposition leader conceded that Labor will not undo the progress the government has made on National Broadband Network (NBN).
Turnbull would love to have Labor spilling their beans months before an Sept election, eh? Must say Turnbull will look a fool
Labor has spilled the beans and the statement by Shorten shows that the MTM is here forever.
Am I seeing things? is @KingForce really criticising the Liberals's MTM policy here ??? :-)
Well he needs to get his figures right � 60% of premises is effectively the LNP current MTM mix anyway?
He has learnt well from the snake oil salesman playing three thimble tricks (HFC, FTTP, FTTN)....perhaps I give him too much credit....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Like I have said and Shorten confirmed that the MTM will forever be around as per below startling admission.
Both parties will pretty much have the same policy and that is the MTM
Sucked in Zealot...hook line and sinker...!! LOL
Do you really think he is going to give Sky News a scoop......?
Do you really think he is going to play all his cards before Turnbull actually announces an election of any sort....?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Both parties will pretty much have the same policy and that is the MTM.
FUD
The opposition leader conceded that Labor will not undo the progress the government has made on National Broadband Network (NBN).
Well duh! All the progress the government has made on the NBN has actually been a direct result of the previous government's policy � the tiny amount of connections that are the result of the idiotic MTM policy are in no way progress on the NBN.
Labor has spilled the beans and the statement by Shorten shows that the MTM is here forever.
You must be getting really worried about the election outcome to feel the need to tell lies like that.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The opposition leader conceded that Labor will not undo the progress the government has made on National Broadband Network (NBN).
Good to see Labor won't do what the Liberals did which is to undo progress to the NBN, but instead concentrate on improving the NBN.
Labor has spilled the beans and the statement by Shorten shows that the MTM is here forever.
FTTN will be here to stay thanks to Turnbull, but atleast under labor their will be far less of it , the legacy of the MTM will be a monument of Malcolm's incompetence.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor has spilled the beans and the statement by Shorten shows that the MTM is here forever.
You appear very impressionable, interpreting Shorten's statement as how you want to hear it and some might perceive you have a tendency to believe your own BS. That post lends itself to that view...
You appear very impressionable, interpreting Shorten's statement as how you want to hear it
Panic mode is starting to set in..
Tony Windsor � ?@TonyHWindsor
"Need for a Senate inquiry into the various allegations about the NBN and the use and possible abuse of public funds "
Yep, the day is coming..
You appear very impressionable, interpreting Shorten's statement as how you want to hear it and some might perceive you have a tendency to believe your own BS.
Impressionable? I'd see it more as blind devotion not swayed by the facts and the reality of the situation to the point of willingly misinterpreting what Shorten said to suit his own narrative.
It's the situation the moat die hard of the Liberal supporters find themselves in when the issue of the NBN is raised.
Panic mode is starting to set in..
Yup the grasping of copper wires is well and truly showing.
Expect more of it as election is close.
Time to take a step back and look at the current situation objectively, facts and only the facts should be considered, commentated on.
Q � Which policy delivers a near future proof service and is easily and cheaply upgrade able to meet future needs?
Q � Which policy would provide a return to shareholders?
Q � After evaluating all costs ie Capex & Opex etc. which policy is actually more cost efficient?
My area is scheduled to go live with FTTN in 8 days, the lack of comprehension by so much of the public as to what they will actually obtain beggars belief! Unfortunately far too many take media articles at face value especially if it coincides with their political beliefs. Reality will indeed be an eye opener for some but alas the damage will have already been done.
"Need for a Senate inquiry into the various allegations about the NBN and the use and possible abuse of public funds "
One wonders if the cross benchers, in pursuit of an ICAC type organisation in Federal sphere rather than a Construction industry targeted one, that the NBN allegations � those we know as facts � might be raised as justification for an industry/federal wide one. Anyone got a list to forward on ....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Like I have said and Shorten confirmed that the MTM will forever be around as per below startling admission.
The mess this government has made will haunt us for decades. There is no alternative but to have a heap of crap left in. The Libs have a lot to answer for. Taxpayers will be paying the price for a long time to come. It will cost Labor a fortune to fix the MTM
the lack of comprehension by so much of the public as to what they will actually obtain beggars belief!
Well, not really as that is exactly how Telstra operated...they upgraded when it suited them and we just had to get excited about the crumbs thrown at us.... and rejoice that it was us who got it rather than the next suburb....
Back to square one, eh?
It will cost Labor a fortune to fix the MTM
It will cost NBN Co as they will be the revenue earners and borrowers � thanks goodness FTTP ROI is running 30% above expectations....
It will cost Labor a fortune to fix the MTM
It will cost Australia a fortune to fix MTM.
It will cost Australia a fortune to fix MTM.
It will cost Australians not even born yet a fortune to fix the MTM.
It will cost Australians not even born yet a fortune to fix the MTM.
Depressingly, it probably won't cost Abbott or Turnbull.
My area is scheduled to go live with FTTN in 8 days, the lack of comprehension by so much of the public as to what they will actually obtain beggars belief! Unfortunately far too many take media articles at face value especially if it coincides with their political beliefs. Reality will indeed be an eye opener for some but alas the damage will have already been done.
That program about the NBN on 7:30 a few nights ago was pretty average. But one thing that jumped out at me was when they showed the business owners who were running a video content business. They said that they weren't getting adequate speed from their FTTN. I saw both the disappointment in the guys' eyes as they looked at the speed. My eyes were sharp enough to see the ookla speed on their PC � it was 6 Mbps down. That is pathetic.
I sensed that the penny had dropped for them. It will drop for many other people when FTTN hands them their personalised sack of manure.
p.s I know the down figure that I trying to say for their download speed. If I have unintentionally given them a higher speed than what I meant that is unintentional; I was not brought up with the internet so I don't look at speeds in numbers. Whatever they had, it was damn slow.
But one thing that jumped out at me was when they showed the business owners who were running a video content business. They said that they weren't getting adequate speed from their FTTN. I saw both the disappointment in the guys' eyes as they looked at the speed. M
PETER MCCUTCHEON: On the other side of town, a small video production company is also excited about NBN's fibre-to-the-node, but admits it would have preferred faster speeds. NBN Co. says its node technology can deliver speeds of 100 megabits per second for downloads and 40 for uploads, but Luke Soanes is struggling to provide anyone to provide that service.
So you've done a ring-around with internet service providers. What have they told you about the sort of speeds that you need?
LUKE SOANES, VIDEO PRODUCER: Your main provider, Telstra, said up to 100 down and up to 40 uploads.
PETER MCCUTCHEON: But they couldn't guarantee that?
LUKE SOANES: No. Nah, they can't guarantee it.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.
http://www.theregister.co.uk
That condemns Turnbull something big
PETER MCCUTCHEON: On the other side of town, a small video production company is also excited about NBN's fibre-to-the-node, but admits it would have preferred faster speeds. NBN Co. says its node technology can deliver speeds of 100 megabits per second for downloads and 40 for uploads, but Luke Soanes is struggling to provide anyone to provide that service.
Well how about that. The link no longer exists.
Well how about that. The link no longer exists.
Moved..
http://www.abc.net.
Morrow pretty much conceded they are being "penny wise and pound foolish" at the end.
just proves that the liberals never put any long term thought into their plans.
And if mtm continues, those 650 000 fttp premisis will be seen to have a premium service compared to everyone else and will end up paying
This is exactly what I have been saying publicly since all the arguments started many years ago. If � as seems increasingly likely � Telstra ends up being 'gifted' the NBN by a sad and sorry excuse for a future Government, then just watch the differential pricing go through the roof! Those premises with FTTP will quickly be determined to be getting a 'premium' service, and there's no way that a leech like Telstra would allow that to continue without huge premium payments. And the passing of time since I first came to this conclusion has only hardened my concerns!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Both parties will pretty much have the same policy and that is the MTM.
Nice weasel word usage, you wouldn't want to commit too much to this statement after all.
MTM is here forever.
Assuming that is true it is not a good thing. Sincerely hope you are capable of understanding this. Liberal party would owe Australia another apology for the damage.
Historically the LNP whilst in office tends to do sweet bugger all with communications portfolio, who ever lands the job to manage it does nothing with it, unlike this time around we find, the former comms minister has truly done bad things making nbn a true buzz kill word..
Looking at the wally of wentworth and ho he got into the PM seat i believe there should of been a double dissolution with enforcement of returning to a ballot of re-election given what happened when the ALP were last in office there should of been provisions put in place to stop what happened, happened, i believe this is the route of issues..
fttp/fttn has become a game of political kick the can when it shouldn't be, to be honest i suspect this will end in a judicial review and i will expect to see a heap of charges be laid.. lying to parliament proceedings and any parliamentary inquiries to date and any future inquiries that come to light from this review...
Just for comparison, The Project on the NBN:
13 Dec 2013 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T-z6ig0G-k
27 Aug 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZSelMsaAAk
06 Apr 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMAA4XCmaNk
Got my ADSL fixed yesterday, took the guy in the NBN vest over an hour to find rge open circuit 540 meters away.
His story is "they upgraded a section of copper and you weren't on the pair you were meant to be on � I fixed you up and you have a nice shiny new pair all the way"
Ok, so 2 things;
1 NBN is replacing copper, and not even last mile stuff.
2 if it's so shiny and new why is my sync 800k lower?
He concurs with my guess as to why my friends in frank st are having problems � they're not on the right pair either.
When I get into the office I'll post a response from Mitch, who seems to think I'm a divorsed woman and has given me the title "Ms"
Josh Taylor (former ZDnet, now Crikey) reckons FTTN only has the last 30-100 meters in copper.lol.. He didn't mind writing an article trying to correct "The Project" but does not know the facts himself.. Why is he even reporting on the NBN if he does not understand it!
https://twitter.com/joshgnos
Anyone have some links that we can share with Josh to set him straight?
https://twitter.com/joshgno
Anyone have some links that we can share with Josh to set him straight?
Yep, he reckons the average is 30-100 mtrs and sticking to it.
And also saying fttdp is to the driveway, when in fact they are doing it to the pit.
http://www.crikey.com.au/201
He's getting a caning in the comments..
Tony Windsor � ?@TonyHWindsor
"Need for a Senate inquiry into the various allegations about the NBN and the use and possible abuse of public funds "
Yep, the day is coming..
Oh yes it definitely HAS to. I don't understand why some still claim it was an either or case regarding the NBN. In my view it was a political party, Abbott and Co. so determined to win an election that they used a list of lies, one of which involved the NBN, where to be different from Labor they just had to claim it would be cheaper and better. The LNP knowingly misled the Australian public.
Anyone have some links that we can share with Josh to set him straight?
I wouldn't bother, certain level of arrogance there that's been increasing since he joined crikey.
Average would be closer to 350-400m but it does significantly vary from DA to DA. As you said run would be between 20 up to max 1100m to squeeze out 25mbps. NBN in some cases are avoiding the 1100m run by splitting DA's
Morrow pretty much conceded they are being "penny wise and pound foolish" at the end.
hah yeah, he's not silly. It was a nice comment to end with, when he said "We may well could be (being penny wise and foolish)". He knows damn well it is but he's just doing the job he's been given. There's little point in him objecting in public, they'd just turf him and get someone else to do it. He's better off working on the numbers to convince the gov to change.
just proves that the liberals never put any long term thought into their plans.
Well duh, welcome to 2013.
Josh Taylor (former ZDnet, now Crikey) reckons FTTN only has the last 30-100 meters in copper.lol.. He didn't mind writing an article trying to correct "The Project" but does not know the facts himself.. Why is he even reporting on the NBN if he does not understand it!
I've found that Josh's articles on the NBN and MTM to be less than mediocre generally. They are often one sided reporting with very little effort given to investigative journalism. In fact I'd say his work holds a lot of parallels to the MTM itself.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Like I have said and Shorten confirmed that the MTM will forever be around as per below startling admission.
WRONG!
FTTN will be consigned to the dustbins of history by being upgraded to fttdp or FTTP.
Anyone have some links that we can share with Josh to set him straight?
Google images has plenty of charts for him to peruse.
I've found that Josh's articles on the NBN and MTM to be less than mediocre generally. They are often one sided reporting with very little effort given to investigative journalism. In fact I'd say his work holds a lot of parallels to the MTM itself.
About two years ago Malcolm Turnbull said that Josh Taylor was a real journalist and that Mark Gregory was a poseur journalist. QED.
and this one in particular
Yes, good old (new) fibre. A nice flat line for miles and miles.
Yep, he reckons the average is 30-100 mtrs and sticking to it.
And also saying fttdp is to the driveway, when in fact they are doing it to the pit.
Been reading his tweets � ignorant idiot and FTTN fanboi.
Been reading his tweets � ignorant idiot and FTTN fanboi.
The goose has just posted a picture of a pillar and a node close to each other. That's all the copper he thinks there is!
I ride past a few nodes and pillars WAY further apart than that every day
I'm going to say this *puts rain / fire coat on*
I like Josh's writing
*runs away*
But yeah he might not be right about everything, but I like to read his stuff :)
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Both parties will pretty much have the same policy and that is the MTM.
You do realise that the original NBN Policy was the original Multi Technology Mix?
It was a mix of Satellite, Fixed Wireless and FTTP and the breakdown was done after analysis of the costs vs penetration of each technology.
Yep, he reckons the average is 30-100 mtrs and sticking to it.
he needs his head adjusted
"averages are not a good thing to use when talking about a speed vs distance tech like ant xDSL
maybe Josh should have a look at
2WOY-06-11 has 24 or more premises with a distance from the pillar of more than 1000 metres of copper, plus another 60 metres between node and pillar
2WOY-01-68 has around 20 premises with more than 1000 metres of copper
averages are the sop of the incompetent they can be used to mask failures.
Josh and nbn� all talk about premises being under x distance as if it is a finite thing, then when questioned further it becomes averages
In the DAs I have highlighted above, and there must be more around with similar premises arrangements, some of the premises WILL not be able to get 25/5 connections, even when surrounded by DA's with shorter copper but on average "everyone" will
Oh and for people using rulers on a map to measure distance, in my coper path there is around another 300 metres of copper than when compared to running the ruler on the ground from pillar to premises.
I can assure you that extra copper is not on or in my premises, so it all must be in the ground and on the poles, plus the path must not go where you would think it would.
It is my fear than nbn� have used similar mapping techniques to those MrMac has used to come up with their "800" metre distances for furthest premises from a node.
This is not a criticism of MrMac, he has used the tools available to him.
nbn� in their "due diligence" did not even check Telstra's database against a sample of lines, in fact they have to pay to gain access to the data on the lines that they now own,
nbn� seem to love using the "desktop" to "solve problems"
I wouldn't be surprised that they live under a desk, and perform all their daily function on, in under or around their desk, never seeing the real world
The goose has just posted a picture of a pillar and a node close to each other. That's all the copper he thinks there is!
You could perhaps point out to him the comments that Fifield recently made about the "necessity" of new copper in the network (in 2016!) between pillar and nodes, and scarily for remediation instead of using fibre.
http://www.zdnet.com/a
I'm going to say this *puts rain / fire coat on*
I like Josh's writing
Yeah, me too.
Kicking the shit out of a journalists that doesn't write exactly what I might have written seems counter productive. I am afraid it will lead to them avoiding the NBN topic completely.
I actually think this has happened a bit over the last few years, in the end this reduces the mainstream scrutiny and accountability on the government for an important public policy.
Josh has been talking to technicians rolling out the NBN and has been shown "typical" installs, which seems to what he has based his comments on. They are informed comments.
I am curious if the area being rolled out was atypical or typical though, underground or overhead power, new or old estate etc. But that is a different issue.
The goose has just posted a picture of a pillar and a node close to each other. That's all the copper he thinks there is!
No, he was responding to me about the pillar to node copper. He was not commenting on the customer access loop.
And also saying fttdp is to the driveway, when in fact they are doing it to the pit.
I didn't think they were doing true FTTdp (beyond some trials for nbn� staff) at all yet, at least not without a Delorian.
BTW, has anyone got a link to where Josh Taylor made FTTN comment � other than Twitter (where there can't really be enough context)?
BTW, has anyone got a link to where Josh Taylor made FTTN comment � other than Twitter (where there can't really be enough context)?
It's presumably in the paywalled Crikey article claiming Waleed Aly was wrong.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2513807&p=90#r1786
By the way, it's pretty clear that you guys are talking about two different things. Josh is talking about node to pillar, you guys are talking pillar to home
By the way, it's pretty clear that you guys are talking about two different things. Josh is talking about node to pillar, you guys are talking pillar to home
Not at all � the context of the twitting makes it clear that Josh thinks that FTTN uses 30-100 metres of copper and FTTDP uses 10 metres of copper.
Josh Taylor ?@joshgnosis 15h15 hours ago
I got slammed in the comments of my article today for suggesting Labor would do FttDP but sounds like policy.
AD Tom Slee ?@PeoplecallmeTom 15h15 hours ago
@joshgnosis sorry for the dumb question but what is the DP in FttDP?
Josh Taylor ?@joshgnosis 15h15 hours ago
@PeoplecallmeTom distribution point. Where node is end of the street, distribution point is the driveway.
AD Tom Slee ?@PeoplecallmeTom 15h15 hours ago
@joshgnosis last 10 metres versus last mile. Better but not original plan
@joshgnosis
@PeoplecallmeTom last 10 metres versus last 30-100 really.
2:27 AM � 7 Apr 2016
Cameron Watt ?@CameronWatt 1h1 hour ago
@joshgnosis I thought the average node to pillar run was 50-150m, that's before the pillar to premises run.
Josh Taylor ?@joshgnosis 1h1 hour ago
@CameronWatt Average node to pillar is 20m from memory.
Not at all � the context of the twitting makes it clear that Josh thinks that FTTN uses 30-100 metres of copper and FTTDP uses 10 metres of copper.
I'm not saying the context or the big picture is right, just you're talking about two different aspects. Maybe politely seek clarity?
I'm not saying the context or the big picture is right, just you're talking about two different aspects.
It's unambiguous � Josh makes his claim about copper length (comparing FTTN to FTTDP) before pillars are mentioned at all. Only then does he claim that average pillar to node distance is 20 metres, allegedly based on what a single tech told him.
Edit: the 10 metres for FTTDP came from AD Tom Slee (based on Josh saying that the distribution point is at the end of the driveway) but the 30-100 metres for FTTN clearly came from Josh.
It's unambiguous
Yep..:
AD Tom Slee ?@PeoplecallmeTom 15h15 hours ago
@joshgnosis sorry for the dumb question but what is the DP in FttDP?
Josh Taylor ?@joshgnosis 15h15 hours ago
@PeoplecallmeTom distribution point. Where node is end of the street, distribution point is the driveway.
AD Tom Slee ?@PeoplecallmeTom 15h15 hours ago
@joshgnosis last 10 metres versus last mile. Better but not original plan
@joshgnosis
@PeoplecallmeTom last 10 metres versus last 30-100 really.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Like I have said and Shorten confirmed that the MTM will forever be around
He said nothing of the kind...that seems to be fairly typical of your viewpoint in this, but a single term of office is not "forever".
What he DID say was:
Mr Shorten said Labor a government would be less reliant on the ageing copper network and will use a greater proportion of fibre in its plan
This seems to me to mean that they will scrap FTTN and substitute FTTdp...but now that the Libs have already spent such a huge sum of our future capital on copper, we can no longer afford to just replace it (the economical choice of the original NBN). It appears that we will need to play damage control of the changes the Abbott/Turnbull wrecking crew made for several more years. Fortunately, we aren't stuck with FTTN and it can be changed (but only in areas where it hasn't yet been deployed).
Kicking the shit out of a journalists that doesn't write exactly what I might have written seems counter productive. I am afraid it will lead to them avoiding the NBN topic completely.
I actually think this has happened a bit over the last few years, in the end this reduces the mainstream scrutiny and accountability on the government for an important public policy.
Point taken.
@PeoplecallmeTom last 10 metres versus last 30-100 really.
In a newish estate I calculate about 450m to my pillar minimum.
It's not far, but we certainly don't have pillars every 200 m around here.
Do pillars do something special to boost FTTN's range or speed or something?
It's presumably in the paywalled Crikey article claiming Waleed Aly was wrong.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2513807&p=90#r1786
If it's this article: http://www.crikey.com.au/2016
then I don't see it anywhere.
It's hard to see this as anything more than a tweet taken out of context.
Do pillars do something special to boost FTTN's range or speed or something?
No, the pillars are just the old Copper area distribution points.. The Nodes are connected to them so that they can connect Nodes to residences in that same area..
New fibre is run from Exchange side to the node and new copper from Node to Pillar. The old Copper from Pillar to residence is still used.
It's unambiguous
It's clear the LNP and NBC Co management (Bill Morrow) are trying hard to to confuse the public by 'mudding the waters' on the various issues around the NBN project- Taylor's recent efforts are quite helpful in that...:
Josh Taylor ?@joshgnosis Mar 22
My interview with NBN CEO Bill Morrow on the election, leaked documents, and 'operation clusterflap'. http://www.crikey.com.au/2016
delphi ?@delpjm Mar 23
@joshgnosis "more cheaply" err
#NBN SoE is clear:'most cost-effective way' NOT 'cheapest'
#Economics101
Josh Taylor ?@joshgnosis Mar 23
@delpjm I know that. Forgive the conversational style of Crikey.
delphi @delpjm
@joshgnosis 'conversational style of @crikey_news'
Except Morrow uses misleading 'cheapest' quite often now � see last Senate hearing for eg
By the way, it's pretty clear that you guys are talking about two different things. Josh is talking about node to pillar, you guys are talking pillar to home
Josh is not making his statement clear enough.. Its sounds like he is confused, but not clarifying ..
450m to my pillar minimum.
It's not far, but we certainly don't have pillars every 200 m around here.
Yep of we were all <100 meters from a Node I think FTTN would work well in terms of speed, oh except the massive cost in terms of huge numbers of cabinets
It's hard to see this as anything more than a tweet taken out of context.
It's not taken out of context � anyone clicking the link can see the context, and it has been posted in context in this thread multiple times.
BTW, has anyone got a link to where Josh Taylor made FTTN comment � other than Twitter (where there can't really be enough context)?
Could it be that it was simply a way of trying to convey the difference to people no matter their technical understanding?
How many people outside this forum and the industry would understand what the pit was?
I'm forever translating between Directors, Programmers, Clients, Support and Staff, it's not an exact science but you often end up alienating or patronising someone...
Edit: Even if that is the case, it's still more misinformation, but I don't believe it to be intentional. Like others have said, I've enjoyed his writing in the past, no fanboy, but I think we gain nothing but more distractions by putting someone like that in the crosshairs. Correct the misinformation sure, but unless we can be sure it's intentional which given his and the current Government's history I personally am not of that opinion.
Could it be that it was simply a way of trying to convey the difference to people no matter their technical understanding?
Saying that nodes are at the end of the street and the distribution point is at the end of the driveway is unlikely to have raised any eyebrows, even if it's simplistic and often wrong � the problem occurred when he went on to "correct" AD Tom Slee's subsequent comment.
Edit: It could have been a typo (30-1000) but we don't know... maybe Josh just missed the typo initially and when replying to cw, and if he says something to that effect I doubt there will be any further issue � the ball is in his court.
Correct the misinformation sure, but unless we can be sure it's intentional
Well a correction would solve that problem, but hes not going to by the looks of it..
Well a correction would solve that problem, but hes not going to by the looks of it..
Ah, well that changes things a little.
Perhaps in this debate I'm lucky (and not helpful) in that my driveway actually contains a pit, like right in the middle of it. I've even had to pay to replace the cover (with a tougher plastic one now that won't crumble) when it broke under a small delivery truck.
That said, in the real world, it's no help to me now. No plans from NBN to roll out in my area, at all, and current ADSL syncs at 2mbit max on a clear, dry (even low humidity) day.
So I got this reply from Mitch Fifeld's office to the email I sent here � /forum-replies.cfm?t=2511333&p=5#r87
National Broadband Network performance
Thank you for your email dated 16 March 2016 to Senator the Hon Mitch Fifield, the
Minister for Communications and the Arts, concerning the National Broadband Network
(nbn) speeds you will be able to access from your premises in South Caboolture. The
Minister has asked the Department to respond on his behalf.
I understand your preference for the high-speed nbn tier plans � 100 megabits per second
(Mbps) upload and 40 Mbps download � which maybe unavailable over the local fibre to
the node (FTTN) deployment given the distance between your residence and the nbn street
node.
NBN Co Limited (nbn) is building the network at arm's length from the Government. The
Australian Government is not involved in day-to-day technology selection and network
design decisions. These are operational matters for the company.
However, you may be assured that consistent with the multi-technology mix approach, nbn
is continuing to explore new technologies, such as fibre to the distribution point (FTTdp) and G.Fast on the FTTN parts of the network and DOCSIS 3.1 on the hybrid fibre-coaxial (LIFC) network. nbn's investigation of these technologies highlight one of the approach's key strength � that the company is free to explore and take advantage of the most suitable technology to provide the best network possible.
In Australia, the market currently indicates that almost 80 per cent of activations over the nbn have been for speeds of 25 Mbps, despite the availability of 100 Mbps plans costing only a little more. nbn has calculated that from this point forward, reverting to an all-fibre rollout would require peak funding of as much as $84 billion with a construction phase extending well into the next decade.
The multi-technology mix principles also recognises that some individuals and
communities may desire a different delivery technology, such as fibre to the premises
(FTTP). nbn provides an opportunity for individuals and owners' groups in residential or
commercial buildings, businesses, utility providers, local communities and other levels of Government to change their delivery technology by contributing to costs of the change.
Costings will be based on the difference between the cost of the originally planned technology and the alternate technology proposed by the applicant. While the rollout will be built to non standard rollout specifications for the technology, the cost will vary according to the design, deployment and equipment in each case. p
On 13 March 2015, non released its Technology Choice policy. Technology choice enables consumers to obtain an alternative technology to that which they would ordinarily receive under the rollout plan, where they are willing to contribute towards the cost. Further information about Technology Choice can be found at www.nbnco.com.au
I'm arguing that people are going for this speed, especially in FTTN areas due to the fact that they'd be paying for 50 Mbps, or 100 Mbps and only getting 30.
When you're selling a product that can't possibly achieve the higher brackets then you can't possibly expect people to pay for more than they can get.
If I were to sign up to the FTTN in my area as it stands today I'd sign up for 25 Mbps, not because I don't want 50 or 100 but because I don't want to spend the amount required to get 50 or 100 but only receive 30.
They can't use that "oh people only sign up for 25mbps" line. they can't get more they won't sign up for more
I'd be more than happy to look into a technology switch but I've seen and heard the stories � the coalition government went into the election with statements that such a switch would be on par with the UK system, except it isn't. I've heard of quotes in the $10+k range and the fact that we're being charged $660 just to get a quote, that someone sits at a desk and writes out without actually inspecting the area makes the entire process a joke.
my driveway actually contains a pit, like right in the
Same here, but I'm 500mtrs from pillar.
Australia, the market currently indicates that almost 80 per cent of activations over the nbn have been for speeds of 25 Mbps, despite the availability of 100 Mbp
That's because the default activation is 25mbps. You have to wait to boost speeds.
NBN Co Limited (nbn) is building the network at arm's length from the Government. The
Australian Government is not involved in day-to-day technology selection and network
design decisions. These are operational matters for the company.
LOL only an idiot would believe that.
He said nothing of the kind...that seems to be fairly typical of your viewpoint in this, but a single term of office is not "forever".
If you live in regional Australia will be pretty close to forever. They will be stuck on copper for a very, very long time. They are always last on the list for any sort of upgrades, ad given that NBN Co have no proof that they will actually make money with the MTM, there wont be the funds there to do it anyway. It will come down to another political crap fight to get it done.
This seems to me to mean that they will scrap FTTN and substitute FTTdp
Yep. That seems to be the best they will be able to do for an immediate solution. The project cant be delayed any longer. Turnbull has effectively stopped progress for well over 2 years by changing to the MTM. Labor cant afford to do the same to change it back to the more sensible FTTP option. The Libs have stuffed it for them and made it hugely more complex and expensive to fix.
I feel sorry for those who are getting the FTTN rollout at the moment, and up until the election. Those guys are going to be stranded on a copper lucky dip for a long time for a long time whilst FTTdp and FTTP take priority everywhere else.
Same here, but I'm 500mtrs from pillar.
According to Google Maps, assuming the cable direction is the most direct and follows the streets, I'm about 650m away.
Josh Taylor (former ZDnet, now Crikey)
Wow and they pay people to write this drivel? Does anyone do any research before spouting out about their commentary on a particular issue reporter or not. Terrible reporting, and this guy done IT reporting? This guy shows a photo of a node close to a pillar and believes this shows that copper runs are 10 meters? Go back to the drawing board Josh and do your research.
It could have been a typo (30-1000) but we don't know... maybe Josh just missed the typo initially and when replying to cw, and if he says something to that effect I doubt there will be any further issue � the ball is in his court.
It is clear that Josh Taylor does not know what he is talking about.. It was not just a typo � he was very clear to me that he knows better:
http://i.imgur.com/qb7Jv3W.jpg
And then I got blocked :(
Does anyone do any research before spouting out about their commentary
Nope � they simply echo the contents of the press release given to them.
It was not just a typo � he was very clear to me that he knows better:
http://i.imgur.com/qb7Jv3W.jpg
Wow, that's just stupid, considering himself an expert because he attended one PR event.
Yep, he reckons the average is 30-100 mtrs and sticking to it.
Around here they are building nodes within 100m of each other. But thats in the CBD. Morrow said himself, they will use FTTdp where premises are more than 1km from the node (and get less than the 25Mbps minimum). Pretty sure there's no other tech they're installing for that 100m-1km range lol
Wow, that's just stupid, considering himself an expert because he attended one PR event.
Another so called "IT journalist" to add to the don't bother reading black list.
Decent journalists seems to be dropping like flies really.
Join the club! me to.
Obviously he does not like to be corrected... You can still read & then reply to his tweets � just use a browser that ur not signed it too & then copy & past links to other browser ;)
Wow, that's just stupid, considering himself an expert because he attended one PR event.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the Australian media. I have journalist friends and deal with this all the time. They'll blow whichever way the latest boozy lunch or free phone sways them...
Even his own report on the cherry picked trial said that the line length was 190m, almost double what he now claims as the maximum.
http://www.zdnet.com
They'll blow whichever way the latest boozy lunch or free phone sways them.
Meanwhile the continued expansion of Australia's it infrastructure in going to stagnate compared to the rest of the world due to COPPER POISONING from the injections of FRAUDBAND into our infrastructure and not get reported on properly.
Dear Josh, I am 1011 metres copper distance from my pillar in a completed FTTN rollout.
My node is another 60 metres further than me from the pillar.
You may know what you have been shown but you do not know what you have not been shown.
Do not believe what people tell you , do your own research
Dear Josh, I am 1011 metres copper distance from my pillar in a completed FTTN rollout.
My node is another 60 metres
Sounds like dial up might be faster for you.
Do not believe what people tell you , do your own research
Well said ;)
Now tweet him that so you can get blocked too!
Do not believe what people tell you , do your own research
Speaking of this...
https://twitter.com/j
Has Josh investigated the many reports here of people getting speeds significantly below 76/34Mbps?
Speaking of this...
https://twitter.com/j
Sounded like it was just for the 30,000 connected on FttN.
Jebus, is this meant to be "Journalism"?
This pillar talk is a pointless look over there subject since they don't affect the FTTN.
This pillar talk is a pointless look over there subject since they don't affect the FTTN.
They do � the copper goes from the premises to the node via the pillar � that's why nbn� are buying millions of dollars worth of new copper to connect nodes to pillars.
Jebus, is this meant to be "Journalism"?
He did provide an update/clarification/correction in a later tweet, although he still seems to have taken the claim on face value.
They can't use that "oh people only sign up for 25mbps" line. they can't get more they won't sign up for more
Looking at Telstra's NBN bundles they do not promote anything more than 25 Mbps.
https://www.telstra.com.au/broadband/nbn/nbn-plans
Having entered an address in a FTTP area, there is no option for a 'speed boost' or indication that you can choose a speed tier.
If the largest RSP doesn't promote it, shouldn't the responsible minister be asking "Why?"
All I could find was the following small print (corrections appreciated if I missed something obvious)
Speed: Fast broadband on the NBN offers download line speeds into the home up to 25Mbps and upload speeds from the home up to 5Mbps. Actual speeds will vary for a number of reasons including your equipment/software, data source and content type, the number of users and the performance of interconnecting infrastructure not operated by Telstra. Speeds may be slower when your devices are connected by Wi-Fi rather than Ethernet cable or if you're a Telstra Air member and you're using your home broadband service at the same time as a hotspot user.
They do � the copper goes from the premises to the node via the pillar � that's why nbn� are buying millions of dollars worth of new copper to connect nodes to pillars.
They don't have any real effect on increasing speeds though, do they, other than perhaps reducing line lengths?
They don't have any real effect on increasing speeds though, do they, other than perhaps reducing line lengths?
They increase line lengths (either minimally if the node and pillar are next to each other or substantially if they are hundreds of metres apart) and consequently decrease speeds.
They don't have any real effect on increasing speeds though, do they, other than perhaps reducing line lengths?
they are one connection point in teh chain
before FTTN the phone line ran from the exchange to the pillar and then to the premises
after change over to FTTN the phone line runs from the node to the pillar and then to the premises
Pillars do not shorten copper lengths
Looking at Telstra's NBN bundles they do not promote anything more than 25 Mbps.
https://www.telstra.com.au/broadband/nbn/nbn-plans
That's not how I remember how they advertised different speeds last time I went with them several years ago. They're not really desperate to get people onto faster speeds with that web page design are they?
before FTTN the phone line ran from the exchange to the pillar and then to the premises
after change over to FTTN the phone line runs from the node to the pillar and then to the premises
As long as pillars don't really do anything to boost speed or range of FTTx I'll just ignore them then. :P
He did provide an update/clarification/correction in a later tweet, although he still seems to have taken the claim on face value.
Link please?
Link please?
https://twitter.com/joshgnos
It was the day after the tweet I linked to previously (March 15th).
https://twitter.com/joshgno
It was the day after the tweet I linked to previously (March 15th).
1. Wonder how he excluded the FTTB figures as nbn don't release them
2. Was FTTP excluded?
1. Wonder how he excluded the FTTB figures as nbn don't release them
See http://www.zdnet.com/article/
Morrow touted that the average speed on FttN connections sits at 83Mbps down and 36Mbps up. However, in the morning, NBN said that those numbers also included fibre-to-the-basement (FttB) users.
In the afternoon, NBN revealed the average speed on its FttN connections is 76Mbps down and 34Mbps up, and for FttB customers the average speeds are 102Mbps down and 43Mbps up.
high-speed nbn tier plans � 100 megabits per second
(Mbps) upload and 40 Mbps download
Isn't that ass-about-face? Isn't it 100 down and 40 up?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
Is four of anything really all Australia can support?
https://twitter.com/joshgno
It was the day after the tweet I linked to previously (March 15th).
Sorry, I thought you meant that Josh corrected this:
It is clear that Josh Taylor does not know what he is talking about.. It was not just a typo � he was very clear to me that he knows better:
Sorry, I thought you meant that Josh corrected this
Nah, he still seems to have his head firmly in the sand (or elsewhere) about that even though reading one single article on his former employer's website http://www.zdnet.com/article/
Jebus, is this meant to be "Journalism"?
Catching up with his posts on Twitter rather than just the articles has changed my view a little. Very disappointed.
Journalism seems to be like Politics in that whoever is actually smart, educated, well informed, there for the greater good; does not want any part of it any more. While it attracts (in droves) the self serving, self deluded, sway-with-the-breeze types that just want to get a free ride and grease their own wheels.
These positions no longer attract people of integrity and smarts. Or more accurately, those people no longer wish to be involved in these positions due to the massive about of.... a$$holes that currently make them up!
https://www.communications.g
Sorted by electorate, huh. Now why would you want info sorted that way...
Journalism seems to be like Politics
It's not journalism anymore. Just reporting. And mainly just sticking your name at the top of an nbn PR release or political press release.
In the afternoon, NBN revealed the average speed on its FttN connections is 76Mbps down and 34Mbps up, and for FttB customers the average speeds are 102Mbps down and 43Mbps up.
I would call BS on those numbers also. They did not hit anywhere near that during the trials.
Those numbers are more likely the aveage peak speed achieved in a 24 hr period.
Those numbers are more likely the average peak speed achieved in a 24 hr period.
But were those for FTTdp or FTTN?
@50086652 Queeg 500 writes...
["See http://www.zdnet.com/article/
Morrow touted ]
In the afternoon, NBN revealed the average speed on its FttN connections is 76Mbps down and 34Mbps up, and for FttB customers the average speeds are 102Mbps down and 43Mbps up.
Finally � something that makes real sense...
https://delimiter.com.au/201
Finally � something that makes real sense...
https://delimiter.com.au/20
People will say a few things on this � if you use more it must cost more? Wrong. We are just talking about using the NBN here � not transiting off it and using the internet in general where real expenses add up pretty fast. This is just about going from your home on NBN to the edge where NBN hands you off to your ISP. There is zero incremental cost in this if it is engineered correctly[iii] � it sounds illogical but it does not cost any more if it stays on network.
A simple example anyone should be ale to understand?
Mobile phone costs between users on the same carrier are zero to very low.
A simple example anyone should be ale to understand?
Bringing back speed tiers, when we finally had Telstra weaned off them, was one thing Labor did get wrong. I never understood the point of several tiers, two or three at most. Google fiber has only two.
Finally � something that makes real sense...
Brilliantly written article, and the one referenced was worth the time to read
Bringing back speed tiers, when we finally had Telstra weaned off them, was one thing Labor did get wrong.
Agreed. I would have liked to see a 12/1 and Max speed. The 12/1 for phone only and very low data users. People like parents and in-laws who use facebook, or might want to watch a single stream of Netflix on occasion, but who don't want to worry about Quotas and speeds and limits and this is all so confusing for people in their 70's and 80's
I think speed tiers are fine, as users can upgrade tiers as they are comfortable in consuming the bandwidth.
The problem is, CVC. If users buy a speed tier of 12/1 or 25/5 or 100/40, 1000/400 etc. They should have unrestricted/unlimited bandwidth of that tier to anyone else in the NBN network within Australia. I make the Point "Within the whole of Australia who is on NBN". Only if the other side has a similar link. eg, if your on 100/40 and you want to share something with your brothers home which is on 25/5, then you will only get 25/5. He may choose to upgrade at some point. This is the only thing that will improve productivity. This will mean you can rely on these peering arrangements to produce / consume data unhindered and uncongested within Australia.
Now the differentiator between RSP's is the main pipes they have overseas. Big RSP's will have massive amounts of bandwidth and may provide a premium service to justify the prices.
However users may decide to sign up to cheaper plans of other RSPs, but they also know they can rely on VPN connections to other local Australian servers (soft layers). This allows them to control their data routing and ensure other quality of services at meet for the applications they run. Personally I run an Amazon EC2 instance in Sydney and route some data over that because TPG is just that bad for ping and jitter times in peak hours to overseas servers. But to Local servers they are fine. NBN should be like this, unrestricted bandwidth as per your tier to any other NBN connected premise, business, POI, Exchange or datacenter in this country.
Anyway I am dreaming here as this will never happen. Telstra will always want to protect their Business, SME and Enterprise connection $$$$s. Why would they allow competition to that.
What we have of the NBN is by design, to ensure Telstra remains profitable and have a monopoly stranglehold on all of Australia. If they are gifted the Copper network back. Thats it, the country is doomed. Forget innovation. Maybe the brain drain will accelerate as I see no option but to move overseas for other opportunities. Jobs will disappear in this global economy.
If we don't get NBN "RIGHT" now (as in correctly designed and equal access to all), as I have said the broadband fate of this country is sealed. My kids and grandkids future will be grim in the digital economy.
But were those for FTTdp or FTTN?
Be nice if nbn would be clearer with the mix (mess) of technologies they are using. When Morrow talks about FTTdp, it doesn't sound like the FTTdp as I understand it to be (Fibre to the pit in front of your house). Although admittedly I don't have a great understanding of FTTdp.
What is the reasoning behind combining the FTTB and FTTN metrics? Is this done because the FTTN is behind schedule and it allows them to still say they are on schedule? Is FTTB a lot easier to implement than FTTN? If so, presumably this is a short term fudging of the numbers and they will one day run out of FTTB sites?
They should have unrestricted/unlimited bandwidth of that tier to anyone else in the NBN network within Australia.
Two points...
You can't route directly to any other NBN customers, not even your next door neighbour, because the network is a wholesale network. Both users must have an account with an RSP, so data has to travel to the respective RSP's network core then out to the destination.
Second, any public network (data network, road network, telephone network) is built on a contention ratio. Users on those networks have to contend with other users for the resources... you don't have a dedicated lane on your local motorway. If you want a dedicated 25mbit/s of bandwidth allocated to you to everywhere on the internet you'd have to pay for it... and tens of thousands of dollars per month would likely be out of your budget.
So I got this reply from Mitch Fifeld's office to the email I sent here � /forum-replies.cfm?t=2511333&p=5#r87
National Broadband Network performance
Quote from Minister's Office response � nbn has calculated that from this point forward, reverting to an all-fibre rollout would require peak funding of as much as $84 billion with a construction phase extending well into the next decade.
One presumes 'nbn' is actually NBN Co. If that is the case then here is an admission that Turnbull is content that his ultimate objective of FTTP (many times stated as end game) will cost a $56B+ plus for MTM plus $84B which totals a whopping $140B!!!
So an apples for apples comparison (at last) as defined by NBN Co is $41B (original FTTP Plan) and $140B fro MTM and eventually FTTP......As good as $100B wasted by not doing FTTP up front.... At the very least, if one uses SR cost for Turnbull's version of how FTTP should have been done (and one shouldn't use the discredited SR figures) at $76B there is a still a $64B blowout in Turnbull's Plan. Turnbull should be in jail!!!!!
Hope someone sends this to Waleed Aly to update his article.... Seems to be only part of media that is prepared to speak the truth....
One presumes 'nbn' is actually NBN Co. If that is the case then here is an admission that Turnbull is content that his ultimate objective of FTTP (many times stated as end game) will cost a $56B+ plus for MTM plus $84B which totals a whopping $140B!!!
If only they'd taken that to the damn election when we had to pick between Labor's $90billion plan (apparently) and the Liberals $140Billion.
Dis-bloody-graceful!
And then I got blocked :(
http://i.imgur.com/PJpGJ50.jpg
And that says volumes about Josh I'm afraid. Censorship by journalists is an oxymoron.
Turnbull should be in jail!!!!!
So Abbott was claiming given their numbers, their NBN plan would cost $29.5B and Labor's $90B, a saving of apparently $60B.
Now we find out that like for like the Coalition's plan, even using their BS numbers will cost $50B more...
What the F!?
There has to be some kind of mistake..!?
One presumes 'nbn' is actually NBN Co
Did they not change name to NBN.
NBN Co will on Monday introduce a new name for the company, ditching the 'co' in favour of a streamlined "NBN" brand it hopes will spur sales of products on the national broadband network.
Read more: http://www.itnews.com.au/news
LOL only an idiot would believe that.
Minister Fifield's office response � quote � NBN Co Limited (nbn) is building the network at arm's length from the Government.
It is so good to see the Minister's office accept ownership for that which it is responsible for on behalf of the Australian public. /S
What an appalling response ...don't blame us (the govt) ....as an opening sentence response to a taxpayer....WTF???
You can't route directly to any other NBN customers, not even your next door neighbour, because the network is a wholesale network.
I think he was referring more to the peering arrangement style like they had with pipe/waix. Fairly non existent unless you used dc+(?), but for the netflix age it would be handy. With regards to the whole network, once the customer starts using it it is a retail network and you can connect with others, but you would need to make sure the routing stays on the network and not transit through China.
Did they not change name to NBN.
Yes and no � they are still NBN Co (or in the footers of their website nbn co ltd.) while they want people to refer to nbn� the company rolling out nbn� the network and other stupidities of that sort. They even spent a fortune buying nbn.com.au but still use nbnco.com.au.
Looking at the ASIC website, they seem to be putting in the same documents once a month � anyone know what that's about? How has the share structure changed, and what shares have been issued?
Change to Company Details (484)
Changes to Share Structure (484O)
Notification of Share Issue (484G)
But were those for FTTdp or FTTN?
Very little FTTN to include isn't there???that may be why it is so high now...will diminish progressively as they rollout FTTN.....how embarrassing that will be.
Do pillars do something special to boost FTTN's range or speed or something?
Actually pillars are very important, not to the optimal rollout but to the practical rollout.
Because NBNco have to have a transition period where end users are increntally cut over to the NBN the must keep the pillar.
The pillar is where the exchange side copper was originally connected to the distribution copper to each premises.
Because exchange services need to be supported for the first 18 months as they can't just cut everyone over on the first day the pillar must remain.
When the node is first landed, they run exchange side copper from the pillar to the node and back again. That way the phone lines and ADSL from exchange keep working.
Eventually (after 18 months) all exchange side copper is disconnected when all exchange services are no longer available.
What this means is extra copper from the node to the pillar is left, this is less than ideal. Also because the original node needed to be located with convenient access to the pillar that isn't needed in the end the node may not be optimally located.
There are a lot of tradeoffs using the existing copper, the pillar will never increase perfomance. At best it will be the same and in most case decrease performance.
In short, copper sucks.
I think speed tiers are fine, as users can upgrade tiers as they are comfortable in consuming the bandwidth.
But this misses the whole point � there is no cost basis for speed tiers.
The RSP plans can then be centered around the data you consume and the extra value add services which they may bundle.
When the node is first landed, they run exchange side copper from the pillar to the node and back again. That way the phone lines and ADSL from exchange keep working.
Eventually (after 18 months) all exchange side copper is disconnected when all exchange services are no longer available.
What this means is extra copper from the node to the pillar is left, this is less than ideal.
it is even worse than that.
The "exchange side" link to the node is only ever used IF the FTTN customer keeps the exchange based voice service operational for any or all of the "transition period".
Some RSPs will not even sell a service with that option selected (internode for one) and most want you on their VOIP service as fast as possible if you want voice with them
So around 50% of the copper nbn� are installing and terminating is not going to be used.
WRONG!
Exactly!
FTTN will be consigned to the dustbins of history by being upgraded to fttdp or FTTP.
At enormous, and completely avoidable, expense � though even that won't be the greatest waste of money arising from the inane MTM policy.
The billions wasted on the obsolete hardware will pale into insignificance compared with the decades of lost opportunity when MTM will be imposing a sub-optimal contribution to our GDP.
Change to Company Details (484)
Changes to Share Structure (484O)
Notification of Share Issue (484G)
Effectively the change in share capital due to the Commonwealth of Australia pouring money into the company. As there is no profit, on a monthly basis, the amount of issued (and paid) shares has to be raised. The process is like this:
(1) The Commonwealth of Australia deposits funds into the account of NBN Co and (2) NBN Co issues shares to the Commonwealth of Australia.
This process continues until no funds are required anymore which is questionable to ever occur with the current expectations on Return of Investment (ROI). You can find this process in the financial reporting of NBN Co under explanatory notes.
(Apologies for not posting very frequently, currently a very other important matter to attend to which I know you all agree to afterwards. Rest assured, I keep following the developments.)
NBN Co will on Monday introduce a new name for the company, ditching the 'co' in favour of a streamlined "NBN" brand it hopes will spur sales of products on the national broadband network.
Well that was dumped on us on a quiet Friday afternoon of footy and drinks wasn't it.
So they need a new name. I suggest adding a 'W' : NBN Cow. Slow like a cow. Milked for profits like a cow. Blows cash out the rear end of the cow.
Well that was dumped on us on a quiet Friday afternoon of footy and drinks wasn't it.
the article was dated April 2015
I am pretty certain that it was written about the "re branding" to nbn� for the public face, not the actual company structure
(1) The Commonwealth of Australia deposits funds into the account of NBN Co and (2) NBN Co issues shares to the Commonwealth of Australia.
Thanks for the information.
It's interesting that it's been monthly since February 2014 � before that it was much less frequent, with lodgements often three months apart... have Turnbull et al been keeping a much tighter hold on the purse strings?
(Apologies for not posting very frequently, currently a very other important matter to attend to which I know you all agree to afterwards. Rest assured, I keep following the developments.)
Sounds intriguing. Can't wait to hear about it. :)
The problem is, CVC.
I have tried to explain this a few times, nobody ever acknowledged my explanation, I assume because they did not understand what I meant. Wrote probably to much as a network designer. I will try again. :)
It totally doesn't make sense to use a volume parameter (bandwidth) on a last mile access solution. Not in tiers on AVC but also not on CVC. The run (let it be fibre, copper or a combination) from the premises to the POI is "owned" by NBN Co. This path is not affected by volume constrains if this path is proper designed. It is a bit like dark fibre in CBD metro areas, a flat price regardless of what is used in volume. You divide the initial costs over a set amount of months, add the recurring costs to it and you have the wholesale end price per month.
The only place where volume becomes relevant is at the POI. But this can easily be absorbed into the NNI costs as they are equipment related anyway.
Only backhaul (from POI to POP) and IP Transit (peering, domestic and international traffic) are bandwidth based. They all are a responsibility of RSPs.
NBN Co pretends to be a RSP. Their marketing proofs this (read the blog, they pretend to sell Internet), their pricing proofs this. Yet, they are not a RSP, they are only a carrier providing a last mile access solution. 121 (connectivity) islands in the Australian sun and nothing more.
You could conclude that they compromise their core business by the MTM-approach while wasting funds on matters that they do not deliver. Odd business.
I think he was referring more to the peering arrangement style like they had with pipe/waix.
I've no doubt he was.... but that's not how NBN works, as I explained.
With regards to the whole network, once the customer starts using it it is a retail network
Nope... it's a wholesale network, and will always be a wholesale network. You don't pay NBN, you choose an RSP/ISP and pay them. Then they pay NBN on your behalf for you to have connectivity to the network. That's a wholesale network.
but you would need to make sure the routing stays on the network and not transit through China.
There is no 'routing' through the NBN, though you could technically say that they are 'routing' VLANs to particular CVCs over their carrier ethernet network. NBN deliver you to your ISP, and routing of your traffic (a layer 3 concept... you can look it up) is performed by your ISP.
Sounds intriguing. Can't wait to hear about it. :)
You will hear about it as it will be public.
NBN Co pretends to be a RSP.
The victims of CVC and/or POI or just can't compete with the big boys, are there to see.
Mergers don't seem to have been counted but nine fewer service providers over the 1000 subs mark.
You will hear about it as it will be public.
WHEN, Frankie boy, when?
We are struggling with the antici....
....pation
Mergers don't seem to have been counted but nine fewer service providers over the 1000 subs mark.
I think this information is clear, only the sad truth is that this decline is not a natural market process but initiated by the ACCC by being active (POI-policy) or passive (letting CERTAIN big carriers get away with blue murder under Consumer Law and CVC).
WHEN, Frankie boy, when?
My team and myself like to live by the rule "do it once, do it right". Rather fitting also to the MTM-policy in my view. And contrary to most so called entrepreneurs and innovative thinkers I do not sell my soul, honesty and integrity to the first bidder for own personal gain.
Rather fitting also to the MTM-policy in my view.
Oh, I definitely agree mate. Pity Turnbull won't!
Two points...
You can't route directly to any other NBN customers, not even your next door neighbour, because the network is a wholesale network. Both users must have an account with an RSP, so data has to travel to the respective RSP's network core then out to the destination.
Second, any public network (data network, road network, telephone network) is built on a contention ratio.
The point I'm trying to make is. Right now every NBN customers connection has to go through a POI. The RSP has to buy CVC at every POI. Now there's 2 points of congestion if the RSP doesn't buy enough bandwidth on either sides of the POI assuming your connecting across the country.
This artificial constraint shouldnt be there. NBN already build links between most and if not all POIs. These links should scale indefinitely or at least be way ahead of the demand curve and upgraded as needed. They already pulled the fibre or many fibres between these POIs.
The design now is that the connextion has to goto POI then to RSP then to route back another POI then to the destination. Rather if it is on NBN direct POI to POI the endpoint.
So having said all this ideally CVC should just go. Give unlimited bandwidth or what the customer spends on the tier and give them that capacity from POI to RSP. So if his happens there shouldn't be congestion within NBNs routing network.
This won't happen. Telstra won't allow us to host things from home unless we buy business grade connections. They can stick it because the clouds invented. I'll be hosting overseas to avoid this nonsense.
If you want to compete in the hosting / cloud space these artificial charges need to go. Only then we will get a real NBN.
Just look at the models overseas. Use as much as you want for your tier.
The design now is that the connextion has to goto POI then to RSP then to route back another POI then to the destination. Rather if it is on NBN direct POI to POI the endpoint.
NBN is a big layer 2 wholesale network, they don't 'route' any traffic between POIs. They offer connectivity at the POI (Point of Interconnect) to any RSP that wants it. If a particular RSP doesn't connect to one of the POIs then they can't service any CSA that is covered at that POI. NBN don't move traffic from one location to another as a convenience for RSPs.
So if his happens there shouldn't be congestion within NBNs routing network.
There isn't. Congestion is produced when an RSP under provisions the amount of CVC bandwidth they purchase at each/any POI. Because of the extortionate rates that BNB are charging, and the slower than expected network build/uptake, most RSPs are being extremely conservative with their costs. An easy candidate is the CVC costs, so contention ratios are higher than they should/could be. But then again, everyone wants cheap internet.
NBN is a big layer 2 wholesale network, they don't 'route' any traffic between POIs. They offer connectivity at the POI (Point of Interconnect) to any RSP that wants it. If a particular RSP doesn't connect to one of the POIs then they can't service any CSA that is covered at that POI. NBN don't move traffic from one location to another as a convenience for RSPs.
Thanks for that explanation. So it looks like maybe by design again to ensure the big boys like telstra don't rely on CVC. They have their own links from the POIs.
There's no way for the small guys to survive unless the CVC costs are reduced substantially.
Oh god what a mess. From AVC tech flip flops to CVC issues, to big telco mates trying to get a piece for themselves.
An easy candidate is the CVC costs
An even easier way would be to require an RSP to only have to deliver all their traffic to one or two POI's per region/state.
That's how major Telco's manage their trunking, and it is what NBN originally wanted (1 POI per Capital City plus a backup). The ACCC in their wisdom decided to protect the interests of a bunch of fiber owners and demand this ludicrous 121 POI mess that we now have.
1 POI per state would allow the RSP's to very easily manage their bandwidth demands, and then NBN could perform all the trunking/transit stuff inside their cloud.
Now there's 2 3 points of congestion if the RSP doesn't buy enough bandwidth on either sides of the POI assuming your connecting across the country.
There are three point that can be subject of congestion under control of the RSP: (1) CVC, (2) backhaul from POI to POP, (3) IP transit
Note that (3) can depend on the destination of the traffic (peering, domestic, international).
This artificial constraint shouldnt be there.
None of them should be there. Plans should be either unlimited or shaped by volume (data usage). Any overselling of bandwidth under the excuse of "Best Effort" is a breach of the Consumer Law under both types of plans.
Best Effort is a either a (1) quality of service technical term or (2) a legal term that a supplier does more than his reasonable effort to deliver. There is a very distinctive difference between (1) and (2) and carriers & RSPs love to confuse them towards the End User.
The fact is that (1) has no relationship with Consumer Law and (2) actual does. To avoid doubt under Contract Law, the safest approach would be to place a explanation in the Contract on "Reasonable Effort" and "Best Effort". In absence of such condition, the effort received at the start of the Contract is taken as guidance and cannot be altered unilateral.
Also important, "Best Effort" gives more of an obligation to perform as "Reasonable Effort". Under a "Reasonable Effort", cost-economical arguments can be used. With "Best Effort", the cost-economical argument is of less importance.
Now from Consumer Law perspective, no Best Effort or Reasonable Effort is delivered if the RSP or carrier knows willingly and knowingly that the "up to" speed cannot be reached due to overselling of bandwidth. This is exactly the point of order where the ACCC is quiet on as it would effectively admit to their own failure to regulate. The fact that the ACCC doesn't do anything on this, doesn't mean though that no breach of the Consumer Law occurs.
[Disclaimer, no legal advice, pay your own lawyer]
1 POI per state would allow the RSP's to very easily manage their bandwidth demands,
Contention is always a balance between profit and customer satisfaction, and shareholder value will always win.
That said, If you had a regional style ISP that wanted to stay in business and still only service their local region with 121 POIs there's the opportunity there to do that. The ACCC would likely have had this on their minds, as opposed to 'the interests of their friends' (whom the ACCC fine at the drop of a hat usually).
RSPs that can't afford the cost of fibre to all the POIs can also enter into wholesale deals with larger RSPs that can, and this is already happening all around the place. It's good for the business of traditional resellers like iSeek as well.
The argument against the CVC costs is valid though, on other grounds. It's almost like paying for a customer twice... not only is there a per month ongoing cost to the RSP for each and every customer they wholesale from NBN, but there's also another ongoing substantial payment to the NBN to then service that customer.
I'm all for Labor having the backfoot on this, but its hard to say weather Labor would roll out the NBN any quicker because they haven't bene given that chance have they. Its all speculation...
I guess so is FTTN/FTTP and other mix technologies, BUT at least we have living proof of it either being good or a failure..
We are struggling with the antici....
....pation
For the Frank N Furter reference, you win 1 internetz
you win 1 internetz
It is no game as you soon will realize.
That said, If you had a regional style ISP that wanted to stay in business and still only service their local region with 121 POIs there's the opportunity there to do that.
Try to do that in the Bundaberg POI, you soon will realize that there is no viable business model for the area roughly between Gympie and Gladstone.
RSPs that can't afford the cost of fibre to all the POIs can also enter into wholesale deals with larger RSPs that can, and this is already happening all around the place.
Always like a good confusion of the current market situation towards those not familiar with this.
Question. What do you understand that RSPs buy from fibre owners?
What do you understand that RSPs buy from fibre owners?
l2tp transit in most cases, though I'd expect some might be set up with carrier ethernet from a convenient location owned by 'the fibre owner'...
l2tp transit in most cases, though I'd expect some might be set up with carrier ethernet from a convenient location owned by 'the fibre owner'...
L2TP transit does not exist. L2TP is used mostly in our industry between a LAC (@ the wholesaler's end) and LNS (@ the RSP end). But before that they require first a connection on layer-3. Consequently this is used in aggregation models in which the RSP doesn't want to be bothered with purchasing individual connectivity to POIs, but simply expects one State hand-off point.
With the second part of your answer, you are closer to the truth. Outside metro CBD areas, the majority of the connectivity between a POI and POP is setup by Ethernet connectivity. This is also where the problem is, it is again paid per Mbps where the price is determined by distance and competition.
In other words, there are three possible congestion points: (1) CVC, (2) backhaul, (3) IP Transit. Each of those congestion points also have their own contention ratio. It is a myth that congestion is resolved by taking away one congestion point. This is typical to Australia (as non third world country) as maximizing profits is more important to our Industry then driving demand.
Last point, note that in many cases, the argument is used that I write about non contested bandwidth. This is incorrect. One can have a shared resource, set a contention ratio that still does not affect the maximum achievable last mile speeds of individuals. Obviously that is not so profitable, but this is in fact the trend at large overseas.
We call that network management. /s
Coming up on sunrise is the nbn fast enough channel 7
Coming up on sunrise is the nbn fast enough channel 7
So what happened? Who was interviewed?
So what happened? Who was interviewed?
Jason Clare for Labor and Josh Frydenberg for Libs. It was a non-event with the ongoing politicisation of the NBN that almost literally ended with hosts rolling their eyes and not impressed.
Jason Claire and some numpty bs artist from the libs saying the mtm is technically superior. I don't think it went all that well for fttp. The arguements weren't clear and Jason couldn't really go into detail about the policy. So the question was is the coalitions nbn obsolete before is finished never really got answered :( still its on a show that calls Gretel killeen a journalist
Jason Claire and some numpty bs artist from the libs saying the mtm is technically superior. I don't think it went all that well for fttp. The arguements weren't clear and Jason couldn't really go into detail about the policy. So the question was is the coalitions nbn obsolete before is finished never really got answered :( still its on a show that calls Gretel killeen a journalist
As said, the MTM will largely be retained. Even Shorten said it, a reason Clare is cautious on attacking MTM in the event Labor wins the election. It would look bad if Clare use tough words on MTM but retain it.
Shorten and Clare are different to Rudd and Conroy. Shorten has used vague words such as schould, it's a sign of a full backtrack on full FTTH.
The opposition leader conceded that Labor will not undo the progress the government has made on National Broadband Network (NBN).
Just got the end of it but sounded like political slogans, not going to sway anyone from their party affiliations. Waleed's project slot was by far the best to date, it had enough meat to get through to the people with a bit of common sense.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
As said, the MTM will largely be retained.
No � MTM will be *stopped*, a big difference to what you are saying.
Josh followed the 'Liberal Li(n)e of .... Labor will keep the nbn (meaning MTM) � just like Morrison did in the last day or two. He didn't have the honesty (or the intelligence?) to realise that Labor will leave the little bit of MTM that can't be undone (replaced) economically, and admit that Labor will 'start again' on FTTP for those areas that the coalition didn't get round to doing.
The best part about the MTM is that they spent so much time buggerising about the change of direction of the technology that didn't really achieve anything of real significance as far as the majority of households are concerned.
Along with 'all those refugees from Syria' , that are yet to be cleared for entry here, they have demonstrated just how totally inept their so-called government really is.
No � MTM will be *stopped*, a big difference to what you are saying.
I have to agree with this, it indeed sounds like what Shorten is basically saying is that what FTTN has been done to date will stay, and no more will occur, they'll do all new builds as either full fibre or at least FTTdP.
No � MTM will be *stopped*, a big difference to what you are saying.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes... ............ As said, the MTM will largely be retained.
Yeah. What precious little they did achieve. It will be very revealing, if the coalition come in second in the vote, to see just how many actual premises were passed, or ready for service, or connected.
Josh and Morrison and the whole lot of the coalition pollies will push the Zealot's half truth all the way to the election.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
As said, the MTM will largely be retained. Even Shorten said it, a reason Clare is cautious on attacking MTM in the event Labor wins the election. It would look bad if Clare use tough words on MTM but retain it.
We should really have a no spin policy on these forums and leave it for the politicians. What Clare stated was they can't pull out the existing nodes, which is fairly valid given that by June there will be ~2m build contracts in place. It would be irresponsible to halt the rollout at this stage.
Shorten has used vague words such as schould, it's a sign of a full backtrack on full FTTH.
You should have left it at shorten used vague words, so let's challenge him on it. Instead you fall back onto Libs talking points. At least Kingforce presents and argues his view on MTM rather than parroting politicians
You should have left it at
I can stand zealots, but blinded zealots, no. (Reasoning, analysis and clear thinking aren't part of their genetics.)
What Clare stated was they can't pull out the existing nodes, which is fairly valid given that by June there will be ~2m build contracts in place. It would be irresponsible to halt the rollout at this stage.
That makes sense! After all to keep the Techo's, heavy gamers, heavy down loaders, work from home people happy, all the LNP has to do is make "available" the option for people to pay for a FTTP connection if they really have a need for one. The "Pay" word will put many off, "everything in life is not free!!!!" It should be an option at a "reasonable" cost.
Trouble with the above is how many people have actually been able to successfully order a FTTP connection in a FTTN area. ????NONE???? That problem needs to be addressed ASAP as it will put an end to many peoples gripes about FTTN.
heavy gamers, heavy down loaders, work from home people
Way to get yourself taken seriously... Nothing's changed has it...
Trouble with the above is how many people have actually been able to successfully order a FTTP connection in a FTTN area. ????NONE???? That problem needs to be addressed ASAP as it will put an end to many peoples gripes about FTTN.
This is a key area that NBN and the government of the day needs to address. The current process is clearly broken and inefficient, which is no surprise given the info I have on NBN using inadequate designs and work processes with offshore.
To date I haven't seen anyone able to order FoD at a "reasonable price". Options with FTTdP, skinny fibre and a general long term approach to fibre as a utility could assist to bring this down in price. If Telstra can run copper to all customers for $299 (excluding trenching), then I'm sure NBN can develop an appropriate cross subsidised business model
That makes sense! After all to keep the Techo's, heavy gamers, heavy down loaders, work from home people happy, all the LNP has to do is make "available" the option for people to pay for a FTTP connection if they really have a need for one.
but it is costing as much to build a FTTN connection as it is for a FTTP connection at the roll out level, so why settle for the second rate, non-upgradeable product?
but it is costing as much to build a FTTN connection as it is for a FTTP connection at the roll out level, so why settle for the second rate, non-upgradeable product?
+1.
This is a key area that NBN and the government of the day needs to address. The current process is clearly broken and inefficient, which is no surprise given the info I have on NBN using inadequate designs and work processes with offshore.
Its not just the process though is it? its a unavoidable problem with FTTN design � its not just running fibre out the driveway, it has to be run all the way back to the node, duplicating all that trenching etc.
Its not just the process though is it? its a unavoidable problem with FTTN design � its not just running fibre out the driveway, it has to be run all the way back to the node
Do the ISAM's nbn are using support the ability to use FTTH connections?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It would look bad if Clare use tough words on MTM but retain it.
Ala the lies Turnbull used sooner faster cheaper etc.
Way to get yourself taken seriously... Nothing's changed has it...
It worked!!!
Sorry but its a fact of life that the majority of voters think that that is the primary use / uses of FTTP.
ie heavy gamers, heavy down loaders, work from home people
You might disagree but its not me you need to convince its all the LNP and swing voters you need to talk to.
Personally FTTN is all I'll ever need. I'm using a Vodafone USB dongle at the moment.
FTTN will give me more / cheaper data, that's all I need. Speed with USB Dongle or FTTN is more than adequate for my needs and just about every other "voting" "Old Fart".
Convincing other "Old Farts" like myself is the challenge you have before you.
Lots of luck with that!.
Convincing other "Old Farts" like myself is the challenge you have before you.
Old Farts become sick Old Farts. The number of Old Farts (and therefore sick Old Farts) in Australia is increasing at an exponential rate.
Read this.
http://www.abc.net.au/techno
Old Farts are always among the first to complain that Health Care is under-funded, yet here is a tool with the potential to free up billions of tax dollars.
Old Farts who argue against spending on the NBN are stupid Old Farts.
Do the ISAM's nbn are using support the ability to use FTTH connections?
I believe they do support GPON, but NBNCo design does not. The FoD is deployed by connecting to a multiport upstream of the node.
Its not just the process though is it? its a unavoidable problem with FTTN design � its not just running fibre out the driveway, it has to be run all the way back to the node, duplicating all that trenching etc.
Not only the process, but when they are quoting several thousands for someone who has a node outside of their property then there is a real issue. Trenching will only be required when conduits don't exist such as in certain rural areas, and new skinny fibre trials demonstrated that they can also run the fibre more easily requiring less remediation. Costs of FoD particularly in urban areas should be more cost effective than what they are today.
Also the process determines that the first FoD connection pays for effectively the full infrastructure, and future connection just pay for the additional extension (unless both have it done at the same time). Their business model should really be based on a cross-subsidised and even charge basis, ala Telstra copper, if they were serious about FoD take up.
I see that there are clear options post Skinny Fibre trial, FTTdp, and long term strategic approach to fibre to all streets to effectively reduce the FoD to a reasonable price.
Convincing other "Old Farts" like myself is the challenge you have before you.
I am convinced as I do believe in throwing good money after bad which is what the coalition is doing buying/leasing Telstra's badly decayed/neglected copper network.
Old farts who can add 2+2 can be convinced if the mainstream media came on board solidly.
work from home people
There is nothing wrong with this part. Getting the millions of office workers working from home one or two days per week would be great. They'd save money and travel time (yay, sleep in). Far fewer cars on the road means less pollution and less pressure on expanding the road network. All that could save billions per year right there, and some bonus environment points too.
Do the ISAM's nbn are using support the ability to use FTTH connections?
the ISAM chassis can be used for a FOD system, but he way nbn� have installed them they cannot be used as they have no spare slots for the fibre cards
Also remember that each node is installed with 1 1Gbps link back to the FAN/AAS
And using the ISAM in a node means that any power loss at the node means no connection, whereas a full GPON link from the FAN will continue to run due to the batteries and generators at the FAN location
GPON FTTP is not just about speed or bandwidth, it is also about reliability
Ala the lies Turnbull used sooner faster cheaper etc.
Malcolm Turnbull's cut-price National Broadband Network is facing mounting delays and rising costs, according to a damning internal progress report obtained by Fairfax Media.
That should read "Malcolm Turnbull's cut-throat Over-priced' National Broadband Network
I curious as to what cut off dates Labor would be applying to FTTN. FTTN planning starts in June for my area (4DRR), election could be in July.
Personally I'm happy to wait a while longer for FTTP or FTTdp.
I curious as to what cut off dates Labor would be applying to FTTN. FTTN planning starts in June for my area (4DRR), election could be in July.
Personally I'm happy to wait a while longer for FTTP or FTTdp.
Build contracts would be the most likely cut off point, but it depends also on what is written in the contracts. NBN have suggested that the contracts are not tech specific, but you'd expect there would be a clause for financial penalty if the tech changes after contract is issued.
You could probably also expect a 6-12 delay as well if they do halt new build contracts. That's due to nbn having to return to Design Phase for either FTTdP or FTTP. I'd also suggest it's an open question on how geared up nbn is on FTTdp as well as the supply chain readiness for fibre and associated components.
Edit: 4DRR as of Nov 2015 was due to issue contract instruction in Oct 16. You may still get lucky yet
Personally FTTN is all I'll ever need.
If that is true � and as someone just on the right side of 70 I believe you are wrong!
But what about the person who purchases your property after your demise.... having an inferior internet service will lower the value your estate can ask....
And your children if they inherit the house, would appreciate faster broadband would they not..... etc
That sort of attitude � "I'm all right Jack, the future can take care of itself" is what has got Australia (and the rest of the world) in the disastrous state it is in. Politicians are the worst offenders but ordinary people are starting to think that way as well.
Don't be so bloody selfish � think of the future and that the need for very high speeds is already there for many, and just around the corner for most. If we are going to be the innovative country build high speed internet access for all, build it once and build it correctly the first time!
Build contracts would be the most likely cut off point, but it depends also on what is written in the contracts.
The Caretaker Conventions was mentioned in estimates.
a) The nbn Board and Management are aware of the caretaker conventions.
b) nbn has discussed the caretaker conventions with Government.
c) nbn observes and abides by the caretaker conventions as set out by the Department of
Prime Minister and Cabinet.
Whether that will affect current contracts, maybe at least delay them, remains to be seen.
You could probably also expect a 6-12 delay as well if they do halt new build contracts.
And the contracts for supply of nodes, fibre etc. will be let well before the commencement of the build. They will already have the gear on order and won't want to turn it into expensive door stops.
I'd suggest any works scheduled in say the next 12 months as FTTN will be implemented that way � unless someone is prepared to write off a lot of expensive gear.
You could probably also expect a 6-12 delay as well if they do halt new build contracts.
6-12 Months? sadly pretty much what I expected, though as per your edit (Oct Contract) we may get lucky, though the recent doc leak shows "Work Released for Design/Contract Instruction issued to Delivery Partner" Feb-2016, October is "Work Released for Build/Contract Instruction", not sure of the difference between the two.
I must admit that with our sync rate (2Mbps) even FTTN would probably be a big improvement, but I'd still rather wait for Fibre. Usual irony � under Labour we were scheduled for 2014.
I'd also suggest it's an open question on how geared up nbn is on FTTdp as well as the supply chain readiness for fibre and associated components.
I have wondered about that, unlike FTTP it must be yet another design from scratch delay. That is a problem.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cfj_CitUYAEhr-2.jpg:large
2 new pillars next to an older one, same configuration across the road.
Saw contractors during the week digging large holes next to the nodes.
Popped in today to find holes near each node excavated, it looks like they are uncovering the large power cable conduits near the nodes, they may be having problems connecting the power to them?
The Caretaker Conventions was mentioned in estimates.
but they only come into play once the election is called.
Until then nbn� could in theory issue contracts to install string to every property in Australia.
Oh wait, that's right, it currently seems to be anything but fibre
2 new pillars next to an older one, same configuration across the road.
Why would they be installing new pillars?
Why would they be installing new pillars?
Well it's all commercial there no housing, each block is the size of 4 houses(?) the internet in Osborne Park is extremely terrible with lots of ports never being available.
May have something to do with the sheer amount of nodes they are putting down
It really makes me sick knowing our NBN is destroyed and people took the bait about what malcolm turnbull lied about regarding the "sooner, faster, cheaper".
We all seem to be a bunch of fools to the government.
2 new pillars next to an older one, same configuration across the road.
We have one of those sorts of set ups in Bunbury (WA), except they aren't neatly spaced a part like that, they are within kicking distance of each other (the kicking distance of a toddler).
On the corner of Blair Street and Stirling Street right next to the traffic lights https://goo.gl/maps/58VmjYQhkkk. GMaps isn't quite up to date (2015) but the 2 new ones (both look to be NBN based on the names on them, though I would need to grab a better shot from my dashcam) are right next to this one, basically making a sort of triangle shape.
It really makes me sick knowing our NBN is destroyed
It's not destroyed, but like you I am very angry about the fact it will now take 10-20 years to get this fixed.
We would have had fttp by 2022, as it is we may not even have it by 2032.
The LNP should be and will be hammered for their lack of vision and the total mess we now find ourselves in.
If the ALP don't win, then we will have 3 more years of the same � this is when we can be sure it has been ruined � unless the LNP actually backflip.
This could be interesting.
http://www.themorningbulleti
NBN Forum
Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare, Senator Jan McLucas and ALP Candidate for Capricornia, Leisa Neaton invite you to attend a forum about the National Broadband Network.
This forum is designed to tell locals how Labor will deliver on this critical project. We believe the NBN needs to be rolled out on an equitable basis around the country so people in regional areas like Central Queensland are not disadvantaged.
We all seem to be a bunch of fools to the government.
We did elect them after all.
But what about the person who purchases your property after your demise
If they want FTTP they will pay for FOD, if they are big on welfare they will do nothing more than whinge
And your children if they inherit the house, would appreciate faster broadband would they not..... etc
I can assure you that paying for FOD out of their inheritance would not be a problem for them.
Don't be so bloody selfish
I'm not, Im a realist. At present I'm due to get FTTN in the next 12 months / two years???
If I had a need for FOD I would pay for it.
think of the future and that the need for very high speeds is already there for many
Not for me! Im not in anyway jealous that a mere 20klms away from my home FTTP has already been rolled out.
build it once and build it correctly the first time!
Too true! It's a pity that Conroy and Co didn't think about that.
He was more worried about telling Telco Execs that he could make them "wear red under pants on their head" than getting the FTTP rolled out on schedule.
By the way, how's the roll out in Tasmania going?
PS even Shorten is changing his tune.
"Mr Shorten confirmed that Labor would adopt the Turnbull Government�s multi-technology mix.�
https://delimiter.com.au/201
So it looks like a change to FTTP in existing FTTN areas and a full FTTP roll out for everywhere else is looking like nothing more than wish full thinking.
As a realist I will not lose any sleep over the issue.
I would dearly love to see Jason Clare change some of the language when referring to the FTTN if Labor wins in 2016.
Not, "We will finish the FTTN', but, 'We'll do as little of it as we are legally compelled to.".
If I had a need for FOD I would pay for it.
My reading of some of the threads here, by people far more expert than me, gives me the impression that although NBN people claim you can upgrade FTTN to FTTP, depending on some configuration at the node, it may not be technically possible in all cases.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/.../
Is there any data on what tier people are choosing?
I keep seeing the claim that people are only choosing 12/1, but this points to the fact they aren't.
depending on some configuration at the node, it may not be technically possible in all cases.
Seems to be worse than that in that NBN appear to be actively doing everything in their power to discourage people applying for or getting FoD.
So basically FoD is a furphy, something mentioned to try and keep the pro-fibre lobby quiet.
Too true! It's a pity that Conroy and Co didn't think about that.
He was more worried about telling Telco Execs that he could make them "wear red under pants on their head" than getting the FTTP rolled out on schedule.
Yes, there is no doubting that they got it wrong is some respects � and the LNP used that as electoral fodder.... but they promised that they would "get it right" and guess what � they have the same (or worse) massive cost over runs and delays to implement an inferior system. It is new ground and neither side of politics has a clue so in reality this should have been expected.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones and the LNP didn't have any better grasp of the NBN than the Labor party did � arguably their understanding is far worse.
It is just a pity the the kiddies that make up the LNP and the Labor party can't grow up and think about what is best for the country rather than trying to score petty political points against the other � and it is a pity that the Australian public can't see through their childish behaviour and press for politicians who care about what they can achieve rather than focussing on what the other side hasn't achieved!
Honestly kids in kindergarten probably have a better idea of co-operation than those childish individuals in our Parliament.
depending on some configuration at the node, it may not be technically possible in all cases
If that's the case something should be done to rectify ASAP.
If only to satisfy the people that are posting that they want / require nothing other than FTTP.
Availability of FOD will quieten them one way or another.
ie If they want it bad enough they will pay up.
If they dont pay up they are just whingers making noise!
If they dont pay up they are just whingers making noise!
At any cost then?
FOD isn't even available from what I can see � every time someone has tried, they've over quoted by 50%.
What about the fact we are spending 56 billion without a guaranteed speed and 1/3 the roi (or worse) of fttp?
What about the fact they promised 25mbs for 29.5 billion by 2016 and have failed on all metrics?
Why should Australia pay for a second rate nbn that doesn't deliver on any metric?
If they want FTTP they will pay for FOD...
It seems pretty clear that at some point in the future, internet with FTTP speeds will be every bit as necessary to the vast majority of people as the ordinary telephone has been for the past 100 years.
People will not be charged for that one by one. It will all have to be done again. The money being p*ssed into the wind right now will all have been for nothing.
p.s., we're headed for the wall with an ageing population. That will be fun.
PS even Shorten is changing his tune.
"Mr Shorten confirmed that Labor would adopt the Turnbull Government�s multi-technology mix.�
He doesn't have a choice!
To draw any conclusion other than "The Libs broke the NBN to the point where the parts they've broken have to stay broken for the foreseeable future" is simply being dishonest.
To take it a step further and infer support for MTM is ludicrous in the extreme and more likely trolling than anything else.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
As said, the MTM will largely be retained.
As said, you must be really scared of the election outcome to come out with a lie like that.
Shorten has used vague words such as schould, it's a sign of a full backtrack on full FTTH.
I'm sure you see signs that reconfirm your preconceptions wherever you look... doesn't mean they exist.
It should be an option at a "reasonable" cost.
It's not an option at any cost.
That problem needs to be addressed ASAP as it will put an end to many peoples gripes about FTTN.
Given that the fundamental problem with FTTN is that you're spending the same amount of money as you would for FTTP only to require the same amount of money again for the inevitable (according to everyone including Turnbull) replacement with FTTP, it wouldn't do anything of the sort.
It worked!
So did the lie about 25Mbps to everyone by the end of 2016 (after all, it got your luddite friends elected) � that doesn't make it in any way true or worth repeating.
I'm not, Im a realist.
No realist believes that paying twice to achieve the same outcome as paying once is sensible.
If they want FTTP they will pay for FOD...
Well I'm sorry but you wouldn't because you couldn't! I don't believe there is any way at all that the FTTN designed network can support FFTP. If there is, I'd like someone to offer me convincing evidence -and not just wishy-washy words! If you are connected to FTTN and you want FTTP then payment or not, you are in for an intergenerational wait.
I keep seeing the claim that people are only choosing 12/1, but this points to the fact they aren't.
That's the percentages for FTTN, I don't know of the other technologies. Why people choose to take those speeds could have outside factors, like the co-existence period, congestion, CVC, poor Telstra website advertising higher tiers, etc.
And..
33.6
nbn costing 56 billion. Turnbull � still using dialup.
To take it a step further and infer support for MTM is ludicrous in the extreme and more likely trolling than anything else.
I watched that peoples forum on Sky News. I wasn't happy with Shorten's answer on the NBN. It opened the door for exactly the sort of comments that Fifield was spewing in that delimiter article. If the ALP are going to make the NBN an election issue, Shorten really needs to come up with a better narrative and work on his delivery.
If their basic position is that the LNP has screwed things up too much to go back to their old policy, but they will strategically switch from a "Cheap as Possible with lots of copper" approach to a "Future proof with more fibre", then he needs to make that clear.
What about the fact we are spending 56 billion without a guaranteed speed and 1/3 the roi (or worse) of fttp?
reading the answers to QON from Senate Estimates this one is an eye opener
Q129
(f) As stated in the Wholesale Broadband Agreement (WBA), if the Access Virtual Circuit (AVC) does not peak between the Peak Information Rate (PIR) range once in a 24 hour period, the service is considered faulty and a trouble ticket needs to be raised.
nbn� AVCs are sold in "bands"
for FTTN the highest band listed is 25-100 in the download direction.
So providing that you obtain a PIR of 25 Mbps once in a 24 hour period, then there is not a fault on your connection.
Pay for 100 Mbps and obtain the same as someone paying for a 25 Mbps connection
what a crock of shite
...
I keep seeing the claim that people are only choosing 12/1, but this points to the fact they aren't.
Well, I'm fortunate enough to have FTTP and the other day received a flyer from Telstra, inviting me to "sign up for the NBN" It was all about how much I could download. Not a word about upload � and more to the point, nowhere was there ANY mention of speed tiers. No wonder Joe Average only gets a slow connection! (Oh and like I'd sign up with Telstra over my dead body!)
Yes, RM does have a lot to answer for too.
We certainly remember what his lot was doing.
If that's the case something should be done to rectify ASAP.
nbn� have not said how they are actually going to deliver FOD in a FTTN area.
There is shown in the network design documents a multiport upstream of node.
This would permit a maximum of 6 FOD connections if only one fibre circuit to a node is being provisioned, or 4 FOD connections if 2 fibre circuits are being provisioned.
It was believed that FOD connections were going to be run from this multiport, from conversations with techs on the ground.
But there is no definitive design in the network design documents.
nbn� could decide to pull the FOD connection all the way back to the FAN, or even worse, claim they have to pull it all the way back to the FAN but actually connect it to a multiport and charge for all the extra fibre to "up the ante" as it were.
With no actual publicly available written policy or design document then FOD is not a real product, just at best a "pilot/trial" or at worst a "talking point"
I keep seeing the claim that people are only choosing 12/1, but this points to the fact they aren't.
No, that's what fifeild and Morro would have you believe. The fact is, they are connecting at 12/1 due to the default arrangements. But choosing higher speeds when they can.
I don't know of many isps who will accept your order to connect you to 100mps straight up. Telstra certainly don't.
With no actual publicly available written policy or design document then FOD is not a real product, just at best a "pilot/trial" or at worst a "talking point"
It's classic vapourware.
It's classic vapourware.
I have a hunch that FOD will be delivered by the backhaul carriers supplying the nodes, rather than the NBN themselves :)
If the hunch is correct, then I expect we will see these services pop up in around 6-12 months time once there is marketable and hungry customer base.
Jason
I would dearly love to see Jason Clare change some of the language when referring to the FTTN if Labor wins in 2016.
I'd be happy if he made a clear policy statement, that they would (re)commit to rolling out the NBN designed to meet future demand and not a short sighted political objective. I'd like to see a policy that accounts for TCO, and long term benefits.
It is possible that some of the more recent technologies that have become or are becoming commercially available might play a part in the interim, but there should be a long term plan that should be worked to.
nbn� AVCs are sold in "bands"
for FTTN the highest band listed is 25-100 in the download direction.
We have know this for some time, hopefully the media catch on though.
Also, during the coexistence period the 25-100/5-40 range becomes 12-100/1-40.
I have a hunch that FOD will be delivered by the backhaul carriers supplying the nodes, rather than the NBN themselves :)
Huh? The FTTN cabinets are fed via NBN Co's LDN as I understand it. There might be some temporary solutions in areas on temporary FANs but in the end I thought it was to be NBN owned and operated.
Do you know something we don't? ;)
I'd like to see a policy that accounts for TCO, and long term benefits.
Totally agree.
I'd actually like Jason Clare, Mitch Fifield and Scott Ludlam to sit down together and try to actively start de-politicizing the NBN.
I'm not talking about some huge love-in, just a pragmatic agreement to step back from technology 'backing' and to give Morrow a clearer mandate around TCO and long term benefits.
Politics has got us into this mess, some diplomacy and deal making could get us out.
I'd be happy if he made a clear policy statement, that they would (re)commit to rolling out the NBN designed to meet future demand and not a short sighted political objective.
+1
That is a narrative we can all agree with. They can tie it in with the similar narrative around funding the Gonski scheme. They can take the position that they are looking after Australia in the present and future, instead of the LNP shortsightedness. I live in hope that this is their plan, but as I said in my previous message, Bill Shorten needs to work on his lines and delivery because it didn't come across that way in the sky news forum a few days ago.
Huh? The FTTN cabinets are fed via NBN Co's LDN as I understand it. There might be some temporary solutions in areas on temporary FANs but in the end I thought it was to be NBN owned and operated.
Do you know something we don't? ;)
No � other than traveling around the country a lot looking at installations..
https://www.facebook.com/Ausbbs/posts/1057887737601859
Rockingham (there are countless examples in SE QLD too) where the node is only near an Optus Fibre placard � nothing else is marked nearby.
Other areas are directly fed from Telstra. There are a tonne of nodes in QLD that are directly on Optus fibre runs too.
In Victoria, an unnamed carrier did many, many FTTB installations � I have entry notices here from people I know in those buildings � and they are not NBNCO :P
I'm just speculating � but that's where innovative ideas come from :)
Jason
I'm not talking about some huge love-in, just a pragmatic agreement to step back from technology 'backing' and to give Morrow a clearer mandate around TCO and long term benefits.
Yeah, I'd love to see a statutory body (created by legislation) that could oversee medium to long term infrastructure projects and the like. I am not sure Infrastructure Australia is the right body as it does not seem apolitical.
The body would be staffed by subject matter experts, with smaller project teams for the oversight of particular projects. They would take advice from all stakeholders, industry, end users, business sector etc. I feel very strongly that the consultation/advice needs to be inclusive and wide ranging. Only asking the crooks how to reform the jail is a little short sighted imho.
The creation of a specific project group and the funding would be done by way of legislation to provide certainty and restrict the ability of the government of the day to revoke it.
Perhaps even the modest profits from something like the NBN could be used to fund or build other projects.
But the overarching principle of the organisation would be Australia's prosperity and not political self interest of the government of the day.
If the hunch is correct, then I expect we will see these services pop up in around 6-12 months time once there is marketable and hungry customer base.
Ng-PON 2 speed trials with 1 to10 gbps in current FTTH areas might help that along.
I'm just speculating � but that's where innovative ideas come from :)
Very interesting, good business for Telstra and Optus I guess and also explains why they aren't kicking up a stink about FTTN.
mumbles something about '...not a dollar more, not a dollar less...'
It might also explain the exorbitant quotes for FoD (TCP Technology Switch), NBN Co need to build their own fibre path as they were using 3rd party fibre for FTTN backhaul.
This also fits in with my theory that some FTTN cabinets were suffering backhaul congestion due to under-provisioned 3rd party backhaul due to cost cutting.
I wonder if we will ever know what is really going on?
Which is why it should never had been a GBE
I am less worried about the legal structure of NBN Co. I am more worried about how their direction is influenced.
In other words, the SoE being taken out of politician's hands directly. A little more like how the judicial system works, the government can make laws but don't get to direct judges about actual decisions.
It might also explain the exorbitant quotes for FoD (TCP Technology Switch), NBN Co need to build their own fibre path as they were using 3rd party fibre for FTTN backhaul.
It gets much, much worse � imagine the situation of a housing development in a FixedWireless area.
Developer on the wrong side of a rise, and falls into a coverage blackhole. Developer must build pit and pipe.
Development is 7KM from an NBN Fixed-Wireless tower � NBN will only install Fibre to the new estate � if the developer wants it he must pay for fibre to be installed � 7KM.
The block of land next to him has Fixed Wireless and therefore the developer has no additional costs to make the land marketable.
No cost recovery for the developer for the 7KM of fibre � has to be put into the cost of the land.
If that sort of thing can happen with land developers � what chance does small business have, dealing with the same NBN Company for FOD?
The only solution in the above case is, private operator (Point to Point Wireless to the headend for the estate) � because even Telstra wont touch it, despite there being longhaul fibre on the property itself!
Jason
That should read "Malcolm Turnbull's cut-throat Over-priced" National Broadband Network
Or perhaps it should be 'Malcolm Turnbull's Memorial To Mismanagement' Non Broadband Network, aka the MTM?
:-(
He doesn't have a choice!
To draw any conclusion other than "The Libs broke the NBN to the point where the parts they've broken have to stay broken for the foreseeable future" is simply being dishonest.
All Labor has to do is, promise "Much Faster, Much Cheaper, Much Sooner Broadband" than MTM.
Get into power, RENEG on the 200billion defense contract. Take the cash and build the damn fibre network day in and day out 24/7 (pay those penalty rates and get the job done).
After all its ok for the LIBs to do it right? Reneg original contracts, spend 200 billion on "Maybe wars in the future".
Well we maybe need the internet too, so how can you be definite that we dont need fibre in the future?
I'd rather piss another 200billion on NBN instead of defense stuff that we probably won't need. If we get invaded then we are stuffed anyway. World war 3 is already here then.
If we get invaded then we are stuffed anyway.
As comedian Henning Wehn said recently (after Panama papers revelations), we don't need to fear invasion when the dictators, leaders and power brokers of potential invaders own large swathes of property here � they won't want to risk their investments.
Get into power, RENEG on the 200billion defense contract. Take the cash and build the damn fibre network day in and day out 24/7 (pay those penalty rates and get the job done).
Just reclassify the NBN as an information warfare asset, that coincidentally has massive civilian benefits to the country.
if the hunch is correct, then I expect we will see these services pop up in around 6-12 months time
At the rate of ONLY 2 per FTTN, as that is all the spare fiber included in the run (4 fibers per node, IIRC). So it's really a WOFTAM for most of us to even consider FOD.
(Double post � due to lack of modern Internet standards)
All Labor has to do is, promise "Much Faster, Much Cheaper, Much Sooner Broadband" than MTM.
Ahem. Haven't we heard 'cheepa fasta' being used recently, to our obvious and universal detriment?
At the rate of ONLY 2 per FTTN, as that is all the spare fiber included in the run (4 fibers per node, IIRC). So it's really a WOFTAM for most of us to even consider FOD.
Fibre is a transmission medium, it is not transmission equipment.
Termination of bandwidth from one fibre (carrier) and then new fibre within the pit network.
Given that you can already do it from the Telstra and Optus fibre junctions that I point out � and NBN are extending their own fibre from these points to their other nodes.
The capital cost for the equipment is more than overcome by the fact you have no CVC cost � and the NBN does your marketing for you, to help realise demand.
It is too complex for NBN to do, but I foresee carriers who already do fibre, pushing into FTTN areas, very, very hard. There are plenty of people working from home, and $300 per month, given the economic benefit they gain (fuel costs alone!) to get carrier/business grade fibre is very cost effective...
Jason
Just reclassify the NBN as an information warfare asset
Careful, or you might be the recipient of a one-way ticket to a Turnbull Public Re-education Compound.
It's said the Prime Minister and former Communications Minister is very alert to any attempts to raise public awareness about the shortcomings of his Glorious New Dawn Comms Bonanza MTM.
In fact he still asserts his MTM is vastly better than that fusty old NBN that nobody needed or wanted, and which would have cost nearly as much as his much superior cans n string political thought bubble.
It's said the Prime Minister and former Communications Minister is very alert to any attempts to raise public awareness about the shortcomings of his Glorious New Dawn Comms Bonanza MTM.
Bring...it...on.
Ahem. Haven't we heard 'cheepa fasta' being used recently, to our obvious and universal detriment?
Seems like the masses fell for that Bullcrap last time. They'd probably be stupid enough to fall for it again.
BTW, what gives the right to the PM to direct 200 billion into defense project just like that (if it passes the senate)?
Man the clowns have too much power, too much to sabotage their own country and its current and future tax payers.
In fact he still asserts his MTM is vastly better than that fusty old NBN that nobody needed or wanted, and which would have cost nearly as much as his much superior cans n string political thought bubble
The point, for people like me, is to understand and work out what needs to be done to fix the mess � because, in my personal view, too many people have a terminal view of the project, and its going to cause even more untold damage to the competitive telecommunications industry otherwise.
We need technical people and engineers to be supportive of telecommunications in general � because it bleeds into the public perception. At the moment, because of the ongoing shit-fight about access technology, a company like Telstra gains an overwhelming majority of new NBN customers in the FTTN/B world � a sure sign of market failure.
Jason
Bring...it...on.
Let all the sheeple be informed, and then arise in righteous rage at how they have been misled!
I have a hunch that FOD will be delivered by the backhaul carriers supplying the nodes, rather than the NBN themselves :)
how are they going to do this when the nodes have no cards in them for fibre connctions and the 192 connection nodes have no room for the fibre cards.
Would this also mean that the FOD will not be a GPON circuit from the FAN but will rely on the node and its backaul and battery backup?
and $300 per month, given the economic benefit they gain (fuel costs alone!)
Serious? We could have had FTTH for circa $100 PM with the full GPON setup, rather than the nobbled version that we would get with FTTN/FoD.
I'm well aware of what fibre is, and am well aware what is required to be able to get fibre to a site.
Who are these "fibre providers" that are going to be able to install a 32-way split in the FTTN cabinet and then be able to reticulate through to 20-32 homes per fibre?
It aint gonna happen!
NBN won't allow a third party to install any additional equipment into their node cabinet (not that there is any room) and the current cable scheme for FTTN only shows 4 fibres per node.
FoD is only a SOP to the MSM who can then say that it "is" an option.
Do it right, do it once ....
We will regret this MTM mess for decades to come!
my personal view, too many people have a terminal view of the project, and its going to cause even more untold damage to the competitive telecommunications industry otherwise.
A tremendous, albeit still largely unrecognised, benefit of the (real) NBN was that for the first time ever, it would provide an equal-access platform for the whole industry, so all service providers could actively compete for enduser business on � yes � that well-known level playing field.
The Turnbull MTM has to all intents and purposes destroyed any possibility of that outcome.
a sure sign of market failure.
That market failure has been obvious, in fact for many years, to everybody involved with the industry, except for those who may have been blinded by perceptions of political or corporate self-interest.
If the ALP don't win, then we will have 3 more years of the same
Even if the Labor party do win and only last one term we shall be in no better position as the Coalition will just change to whatever flavour a certain American (ex aussie ) citizen fancies if they regained power after that one term of Labor.
how are they going to do this when the nodes have no cards in them for fibre connctions and the 192 connection nodes have no room for the fibre cards.
How big is a media converter?
Why do you think that a carrier who is already at a node (Lets pretend Optus, but it could be any of 6 different carriers) would need to use the NBN Node for anything?
Private companies are not beholden to the design regulations of the NBN and can get the fibre to the paying customer however they like.
Today, in almost the entire metro area and suburbs, as well as regional areas, you can order Telstra fibre. Telstra Top-hats have fibre backhaul, so you can imagine the network reach.
If you are going to use more than 200Mbits of bandwidth and you use it for your at-home business, you would find it very, very cost effective.
Non-NBN Carriers can use the Telstra ducting network (or power polls, etc) and run their own fibre to customer premises. Given the CVC Usage charging for the NBN, is much cheaper and provides a better quality of service, and NBN gets none of the revenue.
You will note that I am not talking about delivering mass-consumer base services � I am talking about the high-end customer, the technical consumer, and the well connected business person.
The entire model is broken and is going to be exploited by someone.
Jason
At the moment, because of the ongoing shit-fight about access technology, a company like Telstra gains an overwhelming majority of new NBN customers in the FTTN/B world � a sure sign of market failure.
Partly because of the NBN(Co) charging regime which forces ISPs to be VERY conservative with CVC bandwidth (and that impacts on funds for backhaul as well). Most of the other large ISPs have been found severely wanting in peak time speeds and as Telstra seem to be able to afford more � at least in the short term � they are attracting customers from the other ISPs in droves.
Lets face it. paying for a 100/40 and getting 1 Mbps at peak is really not what most people expect. TPG and their slow upgrade policy for the iiBorg companies is further compounding the issue.
too many people have a terminal view of the project, and its going to cause even more untold damage to the competitive telecommunications industry otherwise.
And for very good reason. I've been involved in comms network planning for the last 45 years and can't say I've ever seen a disaster of this magnitude. It is the deaf listening to the blind who are looking at the project plan � and none of them have any competence other than how to thread a string through the hole in two tin cans.
The NBN dream has turned into a nightmare � and I can't see this changing but I can see our international rating dropping even further. I'll be holding on to ADSL for as long as possible � ISPs can afford to provide it at reasonable contention ratios.... and it works as well at peak as off peak � unlike the current NBN implementation.
Why do you think that a carrier who is already at a node (Lets pretend Optus, but it could be any of 6 different carriers) would need to use the NBN Node for anything?
well only about 10% of the nodes around here would have a non-nbn� fibre run within 200 metres.
Media convertors are not necessarially big, I have a fibre to 10base-2/10base-T convertor around here that was used in a decnet and ethernet enviroment.
But who wins if Telstra, Optus, Opticom, TPG/PIPE/AAPT, all decide they want to put a media convertor in a node? There isn't really that much spare room in one
How would power be supplied to them?
And how would this fit in with Telstra and Optus signing "build no competing network" agreements?
Most of the other large ISPs have been found severely wanting in peak time speeds and as Telstra seem to be able to afford more � at least in the short term � they are attracting customers from the other ISPs in droves.
They can afford it because the government is paying for both the network upgrade to the CAN, the transmission in the IEN, the leasing of the dark fibre, as well as paying them to disconnect each customer from "Telstra copper"
They could spend $1000 per connection on extra CVC bandwidth alone because of this fact. Across their 180k adds in 6 months, this would work out to be something like 20GBit of extra capacity!
181,000 customers
$1,000 cash toward CVC
$181,000,000 Total Pool
$60,333,333 Pool per year
$5,027,777 Per Month
251,389 Mbits CVC
How does anyone compete with this?
Jason
Non-NBN Carriers can use the Telstra ducting network (or power polls, etc) and run their own fibre to customer premises.
considering it took NBN 3 years to negotiate a pole access agreement with AUSGRID and a very large number of poles were replaced to enable the running of fibre I cannot see it taking place very quickly.
AUSGRID then got to install the fibre at a 600 mm clearance from the power lines, greatly restricting who can actually work on that fibre due to electrical safety regulations
How big is a media converter?
Why do you think that a carrier who is already at a node (Lets pretend Optus, but it could be any of 6 different carriers) would need to use the NBN Node for anything?
Private companies are not beholden to the design regulations of the NBN and can get the fibre to the paying customer however they like.
But they are bound by the wholesale requirements for services 25Mbps or greater.
However, the 1km extension of existing network assets is where that might get interesting... AIUI NBN Co have not bought the fibre that feed either Telstra's or Optus' nodes in their HFC network.
I have always thought this could get interesting.
I have a hunch that FOD will be delivered by the backhaul carriers supplying the nodes, rather than the NBN themselves :)
Third party backhaul carriers supplying the nodes? I very much doubt there are any of those. But even if there were, whose conduits are they going to use to deliver FoD? nbn�'s? Or the Telstra ones they have leased exclusive access to nbn� to?
And then there are the no compete provisions in the nbn� act. The FoD provider would be required to wholesale the product. And that's assuming the Fed Gvt doesn't impose carrier conditions on them to prevent them overbuilding nbn en-mass.
well only about 10% of the nodes around here would have a non-nbn� fibre run within 200 metres.
I have just done a fibre build quote that is 2KM of civil works, and for more than 100Mbit of bandwidth, including the build, it is CHEAPER than NBN with CVC.
The build cost is around $100,000.
No one in the business space even considers that NBN is a solution to them, and therefore any revenue in the NBN corporate plan for business services should be reduced to almost $0.
If the entire project is therefore predicated on consumer revenues alone, and no network that I am aware of, including the PSTN, has ever been built on consumer access alone, then there needs to be substantial write downs of the assets.
Currently the consumer is expected to fund an inefficient network build, today, based on forecast revenues that cannot be met, using CVC Usage charging that is designed to recover the build costs of the access network, and it is resulting in a poorer experience than DSL because of artificial restrictions on the usage available.
None of this has anything to do with FTTN or FTTP � because business users are not using FTTP because of CVC cost.
Jason
The FoD provider would be required to wholesale the product.
In WA, today, I see an existing FTTP network(3rd party) and NBNco planning an FTTN Build.
Who is overbuilding what?
Jason
But they are bound by the wholesale requirements for services 25Mbps or greater.
I am not sure any of them have a problem with this � carriers are terrible at selling services to end-customers and gaining large take up.
3rd party GPON networks are already way cheaper than NBN, and often provider fixed price / unlimited backhaul from the port to the capital city.
Jason
And then there are the no compete provisions in the nbn� act. The FoD provider would be required to wholesale the product. And that's assuming the Fed Gvt doesn't impose carrier conditions on them to prevent them overbuilding nbn en-mass
Wait, are you suggesting that no private company is going to come in, after the NBN and install GPON?
Of course they will.
Jason
whose conduits are they going to use to deliver FoD? nbn�'s? Or the Telstra ones they have leased exclusive access to nbn� to?
What happens to carriers who already have their own fibre in Telstra conduits?
What happens to carriers who already have their own fibre in Telstra conduits?
They will be prevented from extending to any FoD customer because nbn� own (at least) the LIC.
Wait, are you suggesting that no private company is going to come in, after the NBN and install GPON?
Yes I am suggesting this. NBN FTTN is a huge barrier to entry for any prospective GPON overbuilder, as if there wern't already enough others.
And besides, WTF is all this alleged 3rd party fibre? There is only one company with significant (and it's by no means widespread) fibre in Telstra's conduits controlled by nbn�, and that company has entered into a binding agreement not to overbuild nbn�.
And besides, WTF is all this alleged 3rd party fibre?
There is an unbelievable amount of fibre that runs around random places in our suburbs, mostly between Telstra exchanges � much of it uses Telstra conduit.
Where I live (40Km out of Perth) there is a residential street with Telstra, Amcom, Optus and AArnet � NextGen is also nearby.
and that company has entered into a binding agreement not to overbuild nbn�.
And has now reduced the size of its government and enterprise divisions as a response, as investors, no doubt shift their money and built entities that CAN overbuild. They are a little smarter than this!
They will be prevented from extending to any FoD customer because nbn� own (at least) the LIC.
Sorry, I live in a building FTTN area, and I am close enough to a fibre path where I am considering paying my own money for corporate fibre. A carrier can lease Telstra ducting for a $/m/year, this is around 150m away. Are you saying this will be impossible ?
Jason
I am close enough to a fibre path where I am considering paying my own money for corporate fibre
What do you consider the cost's shall be to realise your dream ?
Yes I am suggesting this. NBN FTTN is a huge barrier to entry for any prospective GPON overbuilder, as if there wern't already enough others.
You are going to find the next 12-24 months very interesting then � because a huge number of your assumptions and preconceptions are about to aligned with reality.
FTTN is no barrier to overbuild � in fact, its just begging for it.
Jason
Sorry, I live in a building FTTN area
As do I, and yes, I am *very* sorry about it.
What do you consider the cost's shall be to realise your dream ?
$10k build cost seems pretty reasonable.
Living in a unit complex, and having the ability to resupply bandwidth to 2 small businesses using wireless actually means I will make money within 2 years.
Technical people, and those who really, really want good internet access have always found a way to solve their problem. Malone brought the dialup POP to his house :) Many farmers in WA use DSL via 2 repeater hops, etc.
Justifying the expense and developing ways to recoup the costs are all a basic part of business � so I would hope that any small business operator (there are 2 million of them!) would consider the same thing � if they were able to get a better understanding of the technology and its how it works and what its limitations are.
Ill also be offering free internet to my elderly neighbours, who just use mobile and ADSL today. Their costs reduce to cheaper than the NBN can ever deliver.
A bit of community and a willingness for technical people to get out there, and it could happen all across the country.
Jason
FTTN is no barrier to overbuild � in fact, its just begging for it.
Let the cherry picking commence, and taxpayer's money wasted with lost revenue. The ROI will dwindle to nothing.
Let the cherry picking commence, and taxpayer's money wasted with lost revenue. The ROI will dwindle to nothing
The revenue for business services was never, ever going to be there � and without business revenue, the costs to a consumer for raw consumption are simply, far beyond the costs they can pay.
Therefore the government should either write off the investment thus far, and make the best of it, or, nationalise all the telecommunications companies and re-monopolise the market, and prevent any hint of private investment opportunity, ever again.
Jason
Therefore the government should either
All current politicians committing political suicide... I like it! I'm quite fed up with the lot of them.
Ill also be offering free internet to my elderly neighbours,
Buggar I live in the eastern states but I like your logic.
I wonder had those 2 million small business operators voted labor then how many of them would have got FTTP without shelling out big dollars ?
They could spend $1000 per connection on extra CVC bandwidth alone because of this fact. Across their 180k adds in 6 months, this would work out to be something like 20GBit of extra capacity!
They don't need to. They run their own fibre from the POI back to their main data centers. Afaik some POIs are actually at existing telstra exchanges. They already have fibre there. So they don't need buy overpriced CVC. It's the game they designed for them to win. Why would they be stupid enough to buy CVC.
have just done a fibre build quote that is 2KM of civil works, and for more than 100Mbit of bandwidth, including the build, it is CHEAPER than NBN with CVC.
But that's the "N" in NBN � National.
I suspect it would have been viable to cover a much smaller portion of the population for a lot lower cost (eg 90% for $10bn) and would have substantially reduced CVC charges and the like � but then we would have been shutting out, I suspect for good, a decent proportion of the population from broadband...
No different to blackspot subsidies for country mobile networks in the past, just done in a different way
--
I agree the decision to allow limited competition, particularly TPGs FTTB network, was stupid � it is simply cherry picking
All current politicians committing political suicide
Is there really that much money that needs to be written off for the current NBN build?
I mean, compared to the interest payments today on the deficit, what is another $10billion over 10 years? Easily absorbable in the current climate.
Before you could do such a thing, you would first you need a plan on what you are going to do for the nation's telecommunications needs, after you "make the change".
Whatever that is going to be, lets assume it is a good plan, and acceptable to the voting public.
If the Liberal party went out there with such a bold move, I have no idea what Labor would even consider as an appropriate response.
With the value of the company that built the network less than $0, its assets can be sold at their cost prices to the private sector.
This should attract overseas investors as well as local funds, because the network is already there and cheaper than its equipment cost.
With a lower cost base in which to operate, and with good margins and revenue, these new private telcos could be compelled to divert revenues into a USO-type fund to continue network upgrades to the rest of the nation � lets say a 20% levy on total revenue generated by the entity group. They could all bid for work themselves and in effect force continual investment in network expansion projects deems required by the "NBN".
All pretty basic, but requires someone with "guts" to do it.
Jason
I agree the decision to allow limited competition, particularly TPGs FTTB network, was stupid � it is simply cherry picking
Well your preferred FTTN/MTM is what made it viable for TPG to bother doing FTTB.
Buggar I live in the eastern states but I like your logic.
Thanks. It is a pretty basic one that drives most people into small business in the first place � a comic book store owner often wants to save money, so opened the store and uses it as a personal library as well as a shop :)
If the required (or perceived) need is there for something, then people can, and should make it happen � action, not pontificating.
I wonder had those 2 million small business operators voted labor then how many of them would have got FTTP without shelling out big dollars ?
Its not the same service � what I order can be upgraded to 10GE if I wanted, and its the same speed both ways. I can order point to point services from my site to another fibred site and it will travel via the actual network path, not into some CVC/NNI construct.
GPON is shared, and like shared phone systems like Party-Lines, they are not suitable for even a basic business need. A basic business need is what drives some people to still use FAX and PSTN.
Jason
The revenue for business services was never, ever going to be there � and without business revenue, the costs to a consumer for raw consumption are simply, far beyond the costs they can pay.
Do you honestly believe that? Why?
I work for a small business that would be all over FTTP services, we would probably have two services at work and I would end up with a second service at home for work purposes. I don't think we are unique.
We are never going to pay tens of thousands of dollars for fibre, but we will use FTTP for the right price. NBN Co hadn't introduced the enterprise grade services yet, if that is competently delivered and promoted I think there will be real revenue from business.
I concede that enterprise might be a different story, but small and medium businesses sure. I don't see how they couldn't increase ARPU.
[edit] grammar
GPON is shared, and like shared phone systems like Party-Lines, they are not suitable for even a basic business need. A basic business need is what drives some people to still use FAX and PSTN.
Surely nbn could give uncontested 1:1 line offerings like other countries do?
Do you honestly believe that? Why?
With the current model of the CVC, carriers will do what they can to avoid it.
I concede that if the CVC model changes, then yes, general business use (SOHO) (low latency, 1:1 contention, and 1 day fault restore) is viable.
The reliability of the FTTP service, for the cost to deliver it, for small business use � a site that has 5-20 employees is simply not there, and you are often better off building multiple Point-to-Point wireless connections.
We are never going to pay tens of thousands of dollars for fibre, but we will use FTTP
You don't have to � the $10k I suggested assumed a total upfront cost. Most minor builds can be absorbed by carriers over 3 year terms � even that $100k one I pointed out earlier....
I concede that enterprise might be a different story, but small and medium businesses I don't see how they couldn't increase ARPU.
How much FTTP has actually been rolled out into business areas, for one? If the network mostly exists in residential areas, then SOHO use is going to be mostly it. The businesses I see in Mandurah, for example, have all been sold by Telstra, phone services rather than reasonable internet services, and the experience has not been good. I'm sure Telstra increased their ARPU, with $150/pm phone offerings, but the businesses are not generating more revenue because of it.
A small business offering that requires upgrades to the line speed, and costs substantially more when you actually start using it � is not driving innovation � is it a bad joke to these people who have just done "the upgrade"....
Jason
Its not the same service � what I order can be upgraded to 10GE if I wanted, and its the same speed both ways. I can order point to point services from my site to another fibred site and it will travel via the actual network path, not into some CVC/NNI construct.
P2P fibre was and is on the product roadmap, I suspect they were waiting until the transit network and permanent FANs and POIs were constructed.
I wonder if we will ever see what was planned come to fruition?
Got some pics?
They already have fibre there. So they don't need buy overpriced CVC.
They don't need to purchase fibre backhaul... but they (and all other ISPs) must purchase the virtual circuit capacity that is CVC.... it connects the customer (on the NBN) to the POI where the ISP has access..... so if you want traffic to flow to or from the NBN then you must purchase CVC capacity.
preferred FTTN/MTM is what made it viable for TPG to bother doing FTTB.
Preferred pfff. You obviously don't read my posts well and just assume that someone who is not of the FTTP at any cost brigade prefers FTTN.
I suspect TPG would have cherry picked away with city apartments under Labors model anyway. 3yrs earlier and $20 cheaper will get you lots of clients and 100/40 is 100/40 no matter what the delivery method
I suspect TPG would have cherry picked away with city apartments under Labors model anyway
Who do you think did many NBN FTTB installations? Hint: Building Access notices in Melbourne give it away.
Preferred pfff. You obviously don't read my posts well and just assume that someone who is not of the FTTP at any cost brigade prefers FTTN.
I suspect TPG would have cherry picked away with city apartments under Labors model anyway. 3yrs earlier and $20 cheaper will get you lots of clients and 100/40 is 100/40 no matter what the delivery method
Labor plan could easy of remove 12 and 25 mbps speed tier and compete in price with TPG, but MTM can't. It'll look bad if people pay for 100mbps and only getting 25mbps. Under MTM you'll be paying same amount for 25mbps for the next 10 years.
You obviously don't read my posts well and just assume that someone who is not of the FTTP at any cost brigade prefers FTTN.
On the contrary, it is posts like /forum-replies.cfm?t=2518480#r6 that make it clear that you believe the lies told by the Coalition and endorse their "alternative".
I suspect TPG would have cherry picked away with city apartments under Labors model anyway.
Your suspicion is unwarranted, not least because they didn't bother doing so until after the election.
3yrs earlier
Really?
100/40 is 100/40 no matter what the delivery method
Wrong, the delivery method has a massive impact on latency, reliability, upgradability, useful life, etc.
On the contrary, it is posts like /forum-replies.cfm?t=2518480#r6 that make it clear that you believe the lies told by the Coalition and endorse their "alternative".
Ignoring the last 8 words which are clearly anti Coalition policy and FTTN. As I said in my previous post...
Your suspicion is unwarranted, not least because they didn't bother doing so until after the election.
Doesn't prove much given there was barely an NBN at that point � and TPG needed no new legislation to do what they did. We would still be nowhere near a completed rollout � so plenty of opportunity for cherry pickers
Ignoring the last 8 words which are clearly anti Coalition policy and FTTN.
No, just recognising your repetition of baseless claims used in favour of MTM.
Doesn't prove much given there was barely an NBN at that point
Huh? If the aim of TPG was to cherry pick high value locations before the NBN arrived, why would they wait until the NBN rollout was halted in favour of MTM some time in the future?
No one in the business space even considers that NBN is a solution to them
Funny, I work with at least 40 businesses that completely disagree with you. If you mean enterprise business, then you are correct. Bit for small and medium business, NBN FTTP is a Godsend...
BTW, don't forget that FTTP to consumers is also the other end of the pipe for enterprise business, and that allows a whole area of development that we haven't even begun to tap yet.
why would they wait until the NBN rollout was halted in favour of MTM some time in the future?
Federal Election was 7 September 2013
https://en.wikipedia.org
TPG Announces FTTB � Late September 2013
http://www.itnews.com.au
TPG Acquired AAPT � December 2013
http://www.zdnet.com/article
Complaint to the ACCC April 2014
https://www.accc.gov.au/
the ACCC received a complaint that TPG�s plans would breach the level playing field provisions. The principal concern expressed in the complaint was that TPG�s pre-existing fibre networks were not capable of supplying superfast carriage services to residential or small business customers as at 1 January 2011, and that TPG was, by proceeding with its current plan, or in combination with other investments made after 1 January 2011, seeking to make those networks capable of supplying superfast carriage services to those customers without complying with the level playing field provisions.
I think that these could perhaps be related, and while TPG could have rolled it out at any time, they were likely well aware of their need to comply with level playing field provisions.
Jason
If they want FTTP they will pay for FOD
You are forgetting that costs for goods are now an international marketplace. If we must spend many thousands of dollars on connections that the rest of the world are able to get for less than a hundred, then our cost of doing business increases dramatically (again) and we lose revenue. How do you compete in a Global Market when your own government will not give you the ability to compete on an equal basis?
That made me laugh. However there are just so many narrow minded people about the nbn. I've just been arguing with that Steve shark tank bloke on Twitter who is part owner of pipe networks so wrote about cvc and avc charges being the real constraint of the nbn yet when I said fair call. Let's open the network, no speed charges, how will fttn fare against fttp the old ad hominem debate came up, off site back up at 1500pm under telstra at 50 50 vs 100 for 100/40 on the nbn, why should I subsidise you? Because if you are going to spend 56 billion plus on a network it should be fibre. Simple
Funny, I work with at least 40 businesses that completely disagree with you. If you mean enterprise business, then you are correct. Bit for small and medium business, NBN FTTP is a Godsend...
For "Internet Access" which is a 2010 product, then yes, FTTP is more than suitable.
I would not have a range of NBN plans on our website that were "Designed for Small Business" if I did not think that it was suitable :)
For the "Digital Economy" ie: businesses that demand internet to be as reliable as the lights or the water, as it stands today, it is less of a solution, and more of "if you cannot get something else". The lack of being able to even claim 1:1 contention on the end-access (and therefore in contract) is a real deal breaker for many.
Jason
Steve shark tank bloke on Twitter who is part owner of pipe networks
TPG Telecom purchased PIPE Networks in March 2010.
Steve helped BUILD Pipe Networks, which the market saw as a truly remarkable company � so much so, they paid $373 Million for it.
I don't think Steve really cares about the money in this � I think he wants to ensure that the industry is not destroyed by thoughtless politicians � because it is the telecommunications networks that connects our IT and Innovation Industries.
Jason
I think that these could perhaps be related, and while TPG could have rolled it out at any time, they were likely well aware of their need to comply with level playing field provisions.
Many thanks for the history.. I assume essentially you are saying TPG needed the AAPT network (and resultant reach) to comply
Many thanks for the history.. I assume essentially you are saying TPG needed the AAPT network (and resultant reach) to comply
No idea � but I don't think a company that has been as successful as TPG would not consider what has happened in the past, and not plan for it. They seem to be exceptional on the strategic front.
That is to say, it was clear to anyone since 2010 that if you invested in a very big network, and became a monopoly, you would have many obligations. In fact, given that is what many others were asking for with the ACCC and Telstra, it would be hard to deny such things to a new monopoly. And as time indicated, there was a new carrier licence condition imposed.
Jason
The lack of being able to even claim 1:1 contention on the end-access (and therefore in contract) is a real deal breaker for many
Not for the small and medium businesses I have been working with. I'm talking doctors, dentists, pool supply companies, engineers, HVAC companies, and even some media specialists...
They all require the bandwidth, but even a 20:1+ contention on 100/40 is fine for now. Keep in mind that they are all used to far worse, but none of them can afford the leap to a $10k install with huge (relatively) monthly fees.
While the contention is certainly a problem at the moment, it is fairly quick and easy to fix over time as we see how it plays out...in fact it's already easing up for many. Those small businesses who require 1:1 (in my experience) are rare indeed...
I don't think Steve really cares about the money in this � I think he wants to ensure that the industry is not destroyed by thoughtless politicians � because it is the telecommunications networks that connects our IT and Innovation Industries
And Thank God for him...that is true leadership BTW.
Jason Clare for Labor and Josh Frydenberg for Libs. It was a non-event with the ongoing politicisation of the NBN that almost literally ended with hosts rolling their eyes and not impressed.
I have to disagree. Yes the hosts rolled their eyes but I'd suggest that was at the ineptness of Frydenberg's responses. The questioner knew the right answer and his specific question got fluff from Frydenberg and Clare called Fry a liar and said why. Clare appeared in control IMO.
This is just the beginning. LNP will not get away with trivialising.
Waleed's project slot was by far the best to date
Yep � no pollies involved in discussion....
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