I am not aware that Telstra were rolling out copper in new greenfields where they were the provider of last resort prior to the 2013 election. I am fairly sure this would have been reported.
What has changed?
Haven't you heard the latest?
Skinny fibre, not Project Fox, but ACTUAL skinny fibre.
Get excited...
What has changed?
Cost...
Be assured that not only has the material costs decreased, the installing of it has hit a new low...
EDIT: Newly revisited contracts, NBN getting more harsh on the bottom line, contractors looking over their shoulders at international pricing, etc...
I do, trust me...
Love to Geo but how can I when my reality doesn't seem to match yours?
From one of the links from Auten Tayshus post whrl.pl/ReApK1 there it is again.
Asked to comment on why it was deploying copper to new estates instead of fibre, a Telstra spokesperson said the decision was due to policy laid down by the Government.
�Consistent with government policy, developers are free to pick the carrier of their choice to deploy the infrastructure they need, whether it be fibre or copper, to their new estates,� they said. �Under the current regulatory settings we can�t roll out a fibre network and then retail voice services over it, so where we are approached by a developer to build new telecommunications infrastructure we roll out copper.�
Looks like copper being deployed to me.
Cost...
Do you mean it is cheaper to install fibre now so they are installing copper?
Love to Geo but how can I when my reality doesn't seem to match yours?
I'm not going to argue, but see my edit above, times are a changing..
Be assured that not only has the material costs decreased, the installing of it has hit a new low...
Of what? Copper or FttP?
FttP
FTT(x?).
FTTB not looking good ATM, and that's only from Whirlpool talk.
It's been clearly obvious the NBN is not viewing FTTB as a good option. Just ask Jxeeno of the latest figures, they will likely be pretty correct.
Blind Freddy can see the market isn't following that trend?
If you do indeed love these articles...
https://delimiter.com.au/201
FTT(x).
FTTB not looking good ATM, and that's only from Whirlpool talk.
You have not posted anything of substance that I have read in these threads and this is another example.
FttB is the one aspect of Ftt(anything but P) that most in these threads would concede is a realistic medium term alternative to FttP.
In reality FttB is just FttDP in a big building. The issue is the length of the copper tail. It always was.
The current FttN proposal being rolled out leaves this too long and sacrifices long term upgradability for short term capex reductions.
It's been clearly obvious the NBN is not viewing FTTB as a good option.
What is clearly obvious is that FttP has been the technology that has enabled nbnTM to meet their targets to date (pitiful that they are).
What is also clear is that FttB in nbnTM speak means FttN (near a MDU)
Blind Freddy can see the market isn't following that trend?
So please enlighten me as to what the market is doing. And not just your ramblings give me some links to actual information.
You have not posted anything of substance
I will take that on the chin.
FttB is the one aspect of Ftt(anything but P) that most in these threads would concede is a realistic medium term alternative to FttP.
FTTB, in the Australian context, is dead in the ground. Forget it, or put your money where your mouth is. Or join TPG...
On paper, it looks good, but the figures aren't looking good. NBN have a different SoE.
They (NBN) won't muck about with FTTB, it's obvious already. They can dump a FTTN cabinet 100m up the road, and problem solved.. But we won't go tech in this post..
EDIT: or FTTdp if its a small one.
So please enlighten me as to what the market is doing.
In the Australian context, MTM?
If you do indeed love these articles...
https://delimiter.com.au/20
I am not a huge fan of Renai but, you know what that article tells me? Large brownfield MDUs are hard.
Mike Quigley acknowledged that in 2010. Imagine how much harder they are to get fibre all the way to the premises, yet they managed to implement a way to do it by late 2012 that started to bear results by early 2014 in terms of SC0 premises.
Imagine � skinny fibre to the extremely hard apartment. Win for consumers, win for NBN, win for body corp?
I do know that Mike Quigley made it clear to one of the parliamentary or senate committees (in around late 2011/ early 2012) that at the time the network was being planned as per the SoE (in 2009-2010) technologies like G.fast and DOCSIS 3.1 were not appropriate choices for a national broadband network rollout given the uncertain nature of those technologies, and the fact that the company did not own a copper or HFC network.
The same argument applies to reverse powered FttDP which is still not an option right now � but it is getting close.
They won't muck about with FTTB, it's obvious already. They can dump a FTTN cabinet 100m up the road, and problem solved.
The whole FttN rollout is in question. Issues with getting power to the nodes alone, suggest to me that there is a very real possibility for FttDP to become the default option � particularly with a change of government. The cost differential at $400 currently with the potential for an additional an unrealised saving of another ~$450 on projected costs is too close for it to be otherwise. What could a company committed to driving down fibre rollout costs achieve?
The whole FttN rollout is in question.
The whole NBN is in question. I'm possibly not the one to ask the overall question?
One thing is for sure, as I've always said, technology will win!!
I think we should just say, 50mbps is the standard (this year and next), won't see the end of the MTM, but FTTN, HFC will get a good looking at eh?
Mike Quigley acknowledged that in 2010.
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't deviate much from that statement to this day.
However, we are in 2016...
50mbps is the standard
That is in the current SoE but that is a document that could be updated at any time.
What could a company committed to driving down fibre rollout costs achieve?
This exactly!!
However, we are in 2016..
And your point is?
This is the problem I have with your posts � no substance. Dont expect me to guess what you are thinking. If you are going to make a comment make one that makes sense, or argues a point, or claims something.
i would back fttdp if i knew it could bank delivering 1-10gb up to 750 meters.
though I can't see it being used past 100 meters let alone 150-500 meters can you let alone it delivering it at 100gb-1Tb..
I would like see the data limits on this skinny fibre option first before passing judgement on it in both narrowband and wideband applications first..
I also want to know whether it would be suitable for 40gb and above applications like traditional fibre is before committing $400-1000+ for its install...
Note reverse power might be an option for powering these fttdp type node, you have failed to look the legal liability angle and the addition insurances past the land boundary never mind the implication of physically crossing the road..
note why we live in a single world formost things remind yourself that we live 3 phase distribution where min spec can 240 vac upto 520 vac with float of 270-350 vac on our power grid coming into our homes, not to mention weight of cabinets over the current pits servicing us copper telephony, gas, water, ug power within a less of a meter radius of the telcomms pit..
I believe fdh is going to replace the existing node or D/A pillar or top hat deployments with standard or skinny fibre though the conditions placed on skinny options of fibre must exceed a minimum spec 100Tb throughput or atleast within the current realms of traditional fibre that has a current max speed spec
fat inferior performance..
Yup nothing like spending on a hefty monthly bill on inferior internet access.
I doubt very much this is happening, even in the consumer market.
They are rolling out copper in my new 16 lot estate just 13km north of Brisbane city.
They are rolling out copper in my new 16 lot estate just 13km north of Brisbane city.
Who is "they"?
300k, all going financially well will increase substantially...
I've already heard that NBNCo are talking closer to the 1m mark for FTTdP.
Who is "they"?
Telstra as IPoLR for developments less than 100 lots.
Neighbour just moved in to his brand new house next to my half constructed house and they pulled new copper in.
Some telcos (BT/the UK is mulling the idea) are going for both � they'll install G.fast and PON equipment simultaneously, and if you want FTTP, you can have it at an extra cost (which won't be much since it won't be a huge engineering effort). I'm not convinced that this is really cheaper or better than just doing FTTP though.
It may not be, but it gives the seller the flexibility of offering different products that it can pitch at different price points. We're talking about free enterprise: the game is persuading consumers to part with as much money as possible without feeling like they are being fleeced.
It's possible to get fibre, adsl, (or even dial-up I think), in Tokyo � something for every pocket.
I've already heard that NBNCo are talking closer to the 1m mark for FTTdP.
I've heard it from you, I've also done the maths.
I'm seriously hoping it's infill type numbers, but I have a huge suspicion it's to be the replacement for FTTB, that means anyone in inner city type areas. It will be the number one choice in inner city area's.
Just to be positive, FoD might come down in price for those areas.
Suburbia, no change on the horizon...???
HFC if your lucky, or FTTN it is...
Denise Shrivell � ?@deniseshrivell
Tomorrow at 12 @SenatorLudlam joins me LIVE on a video chat to discuss the #nbn #auspol � Hope you can listen in -> https://blab.im/7y33a
Link?
Not a link, you'd have to go by my word but most info I've published previously in Senate thread has been pretty accurate
I'm seriously hoping it's infill type numbers, but I have a huge suspicion it's to be the replacement for FTTB, that means anyone in inner city type areas. It will be the number one choice in inner city area's.
At this stage I don't have an indication either, but I expect like yourself it will be used for infill/MDU's etc particularly in HFC areas. Cost to drop in a FTTN cabinet or roll HFC for a small MDU will be very high, where as FTTdP if meeting expectations may be cheaper and arguably more cost effective.
Just to be positive, FoD might come down in price for those areas.
FoD certainly was one of the items cited as being a benefit of the skinny fibre. I don't have a lot of confidence though, because I'm hearing heaps of info on how poor and archaic the internal processes around design, deployment etc are. It doesn't surprise me that they cannot deliver a cost effective FoD today.
m mark for FTTdP
Lets not beat about the bush...
1M, that was never a number plucked out of the air. Skinny fibre, hmmm.
It's pretty much the inner city MDU market...
1M, that was never a number plucked out of the air. Skinny fibre, hmmm.
It's pretty much the inner city MDU market...
That would make sense..
Just to be positive, FoD might come down in price for those areas.
Really Geo with turnbull and co on record stating that FoD was around $5000 per premise passed!
And "THIS" was based on the UK model that the LNP modelled MTM on!
Which as we know: was "prior" to the UK nearly doubling the price of FoD, � which doesn't include; a raft of additional costs that those poor bastards consigned to this inferior architecture also have to stump up for; in getting a half baked solution that doesn't provide even half of what a now obsolete GPON network is capable of!
Your "positive" FoD might come down?
Who cares, it does nothing to arrest the position of MTM which the reality is their model isn't delivering and this is reflected in the fact that in the UK
The UK suffers from some of the slowest speeds for internet of any developed major nation.
Their obsolete copper based network doesn't deliver the reliability, nor can it deliver: a future digital economy.
The UK is falling further behind while its tech sector buggers off to where they can actually deliver their product
The cost of their copper based network is estimated to be costing their economy $11 billion pounds per year
Data consumption growth rates of 50 plus percent which require even more money now to be spent addressing congestion
And how does "reduced" costs for FoD answer the complete failure of the above Geo for the majority of Australians here consigned to MTM?
http://www.cmo.com.au/articl
�One of the great things about NBN is that we believe our product is absolutely ground-breaking,� he claimed. �The speeds are unbelievable and the reliability is good
It's not April fools day is it?
Your "positive" FoD might come down?
Read my post again, I might have missed the /s.
But suburbia isn't on the band wagon, and I can't see the business case yet either. (ducks)
Looks like Labor considers the NBN an election issue https://delimiter.com.au/2016
Which was also prior to the UK nearly doubling the price of FoD, which doesn't include; a raft of additional costs that those poor bastards consigned to this inferior architecture also have to stump up for in getting a half baked solution that doesn't provide even half of what a now obsolete GPON network is capable of!
BT doesn't actually want FTTP on demand to take off, though � they have leased line revenues to protect. Don't assume that their wholesale pricing reflects actual costs. You can't actually order it right now anyway. Supposedly it's being regrooved and polished for when G.fast happens.
FWIW, VDSL in the UK is not that bad. It is an absolutely shortsighted move, sure, and I would definitely disagree with the decision not to use FTTP for the majority. But we haven't had most of the issues that NBN seem to be having, and some of them don't exist at all (because BT isn't shutting down analogue POTS or ADSL). Of course we have the speed/distance issue, and we have the crosstalk issue because BT doesn't do vectoring.
I can live with being on VDSL for a few more years, just as I have done already. I will jump to a newer technology the instant it becomes available though. That includes FTTP on demand if they make it a reasonable price.
It may not be, but it gives the seller the flexibility of offering different products that it can pitch at different price points. We're talking about free enterprise: the game is persuading consumers to part with as much money as possible without feeling like they are being fleeced.
But the seller in this case is the same company � BT's infrastructure arm. Why spend money rolling out two networks when you can roll out one that does it all, does it more elegantly, does it more cheaply and easily (in the long run), allows for the obsolescence of ancient legacy services like POTS, and is basically fit and forget?
The main problem with G.fast, for any country, is that it replaces simple bits of glass with complicated active electronics, while providing a poorer result � and it can't be upgraded to the next level (xg.fast) without replacing all those electronics in a fairly expensive and disruptive fashion
Looks like Labor considers the NBN an election issue
Good news, this is a clear weakness for TurnCoat and his mismanagement and destruction of the NBN should be highlighted at every opportunity!
Your "positive" FoD might come down?
Read my post again, I might have missed the /s.
But suburbia isn't on the band wagon, and I can't see the business case yet either. (ducks)
I'm hearing heaps of info on how poor and archaic the internal processes around design, deployment etc are.
I can also see a lack of demand in the consumer market. Without creating FUD, it's simply not a business goal of NBN to provide FoD in the short term. Why would they put any real effort into it?
Imagine the media hype?
It's bad enough on discussion forums...
I will jump to a newer technology the instant it becomes available though. That includes FTTP on demand if they make it a reasonable price.
The news is that Ofcom are to regulate that BT's competitors will get access to their "dark fibre" network!
Here what obviously will happen is that City Fibre and others will now deploy FTTH to markets that they cherry pick into so you might get lucky here!
Whilst the sad thing here is that the UK Government has invested heavily in failed FTTN services, and now is having to invest even further in provisioning upgrades to that eg G.fast/others just to stay relevant!
However this whilst the poor British Taxpayer is now faced with funding not only an obsolete copper based national network but now will have to provide the capital write off's to duplicated and triplicated networks being built willy nilly across its landscape!
Dead set: Peter Cochrane and many others who warned of why FTTN was one of the biggest mistakes to venture upon unfortunately can say they were entirely justified in their statements of fact!
And more's the pity is that the public allowed this to happen in the first place based no doubt on the vested interests of existing infrastructure owners who were/are only happy to continue squeezing the last bit of breath out of their end of life copper!
A position unfortunately mirrored here under the mess that Malcolm has made here!
Read my post again, I might have missed the /s.
Fair enough but IHardon from the UK makes a excellent point with respect to FoD there, not to mention running multiple dedicated Fibre runs to individual premises, would have here in Australia in possibly damaging our already 2 minutes to midnight copper! and of course degrading existing FTTN services: � a point that no doubt will happen if they go ahead with FTTdp for those beyond the 1km limit.
But suburbia isn't on the band wagon, and I can't see the business case yet either. (ducks)
You mean the one that turnbull promised to release when queried as to why his MTM model would actually cost prior to the last election and then said he would once he had a chance to review NBN's ledger!
Mmmmm: Which of course we are now well into the 3rd year since that occurred � and no business case!
Which of course is yet another broken promise in what is now a litany of broken promises!
A position unfortunately mirrored here under the mess that Malcolm has made here!
Mal Pal signed a deal with AL to use "whatever".
To my knowledge, that stands status quo.
This is probably not the right area to post this, but what I want to know is why does Necropolis Drive, Rookwood NSW 2141 have the NBN as last time I was there the residence didn't need it?
with respect to FoD there
Seriously, what is your estimate of FoD takeup?
Lets make it $500 to get things rolling, remembering that people still complain about the current $300 standard charge.
why does Necropolis Drive, Rookwood NSW 2141 have the NBN as last time I was there the residence didn't need it?
One of my relative's is buried there and as a resident they certainly don't have any need of it./ Sorry light hearted humor!
Lets make it $500 to get things rolling, remembering that people still complain about the current $300 standard charge.
I'm currently in favour of fibre as a utility, FTTdP as the default standard, and simplified FTTP connection as a price point of around $500.
If Telstra can nationally run copper to the premise for $299, I'm sure NBN can do similar.
Seriously, what is your estimate of FoD takeup?
For the SME market they will still go dedicated Ethernet, for the home user with an ABN, who like the SME market can write the cost off to the taxpayer they similarly would go that route if available.
As for the average punter, given the "hidden" costs they would have to stump up and pay for � you only would have to have a few disasters as we've seen in the UK to put the market off entirely!
Lets make it $500 to get things rolling
Let's make it "several thousand dollars" per premise for FoD � as an average just to provide a "realistic" mark to start with!
*Noting of course that across in New Zealand where they are currently deploying FTTH the cost per premise in their more challenging geographically unstable environment is $1600.
Sort of puts a gobstopper in the FoD argument when you start doing the numbers here and "adding" the real cost to government and the Taxpayer!
Cheers
Seriously, what is your estimate of FoD takeup?
Currently it appears to be zero for individuals, and one successful area switch.
It certainly doesn't seem to be an option that NBNCo want people to exercise.
I'm sure NBN can do similar.
After $56B, I can't see why not. After all, it just a "fee".
All jokes aside, if we venture down the FoD path, which I DON'T disagree with, I think an extra $200 buck's is a good starting point.
Currently
ZZZT, we are making serious proposals/estimates. Real estimates please.
Currently it appears to be zero for individuals
I think in last Senate hearing nbn� said there had been 4 or 5 successful deployments of FOD, will check hansard in a little while
*Noting of course that across in New Zealand where they are currently deploying FTTH the cost per premise in their more challenging geographically unstable environment is $1600.
I'll put this on my Google list of things to check out!!
if we venture down the FoD path, which I DON'T disagree with, I think an extra $200 buck's is a good starting point.
I'm prepared to pay $10,000.
I'm prepared to pay $10,000.
I'll go out on a limb, I recon at the end of the day I'd pay $2-3000 for an HFC upgrade. I'd cough up $1500-2000 for a FTTN upgrade.
AND that's with industry know-all.
I'm pretty stingy!!
EDIT: Why the extra for HFC? Because I'd have to have a good reason.
Let's make it "several thousand dollars" per premise for FoD � as an average just to provide a "realistic" mark to start with!
No. Lets make it $500 for starters. I'd like to hear what your statistics are, both long and short term.
Then we can hit the good figures!!
No. Lets make it $500. I'd like to hear what your statistics are, both long and short term!!
Pity we can't do polls on wp, because I would be interested to know what people would be prepared to pay for fod..
HFC if your lucky, or FTTN it is...
Who would have thought that in 2016 when talking about the National Broadband Network we'd be considering people "lucky" if they were the ones on HFC.
Welcome to 1997*?
Good thing it's not costing us almost as much as FTTP to get the MTM up and running which will then need upgrading to FTTP for an additional cost.
(My first experience with Broadband was Bigpond Cable Advance, 512kbps Unlimited Data, in 1997, HFC is much older than that).
Is it me, or does anyone that walk through the doors of NBN get brainwashed?
I'm pretty sure that are only letting in ex-carrier guy's ATM. Given the telecoms market in recent years, they don't muck about.
Sad but true.
The main problem with G.fast, for any country, is that it replaces simple bits of glass with complicated active electronics, while providing a poorer result � and it can't be upgraded to the next level (xg.fast) without replacing all those electronics in a fairly expensive and disruptive fashion
You're looking at from a purely engineering angle. BT would want to lock up the copper because it keeps out potential competition. Disclaimer: I know nothing about the UK broadband market � I'm assuming that independent ISPs have some legislated, and price controlled, rights to existing over copper. If BT allowed the copper network to remain, competing ISPs could offer cheap services over copper, and thereby undermine BT's investment in fibre.
From the horse's mouth:
Its not the rules that are stopping Telstra, its Telstras greed. There is no reason they cant comply with the rules and roll out fibre, as other fibre providers do. They want to gouge as much money out of developer/customers as they can, and so they don't want to open access their infrastructure. The rules aren't the problem.
I'll go out on a limb, I recon at the end of the day I'd pay $2-3000 for an HFC upgrade. I'd cough up $1500-2000 for a FTTN upgrade.
AND that's with industry know-all.
I'm pretty stingy!!
EDIT: Why the extra for HFC? Because I'd have to have a good reason.
I wouldn't.
I'd happily pay $2000 to get FTTP, however the cavaet is that AVC costs are lowered for the lifetime of the fibre to that premises (And it never gets moved or given to anyone else, unlike copper where people lose it if they don't use it. Not enough pairs).
But given my home is 1m from the street and the install will be on the first wall. I'd doubt $2000 gives me that value. $500 is more realistic for an ultra simple install.
If it gets cat(x) cabling, that will be a big breakthrough for the building industry..
for how long...short term solution...
Ask a tenant if they want to pay a small premium (if that is in fact the case) for a long term solution that means they never need to think about it again and the smart majority would say yes...
Yet another anonymous face peddling a hackneyed and bankrupt ideology.
Reality hurts I know, but you should let history be your guide. Telstra have a very long history of such behaviour. Why do you think its suddenly different now?
One day you will figure out that you live in a capitalist society.
There are plenty of fibre providers out there making good money in greenfields areas without gouging people, and blaming someone else. Always amuses me when people defend Telstra's gouging and use a cheaper ISP for their own services. The irony burns!
I can live with being on VDSL for a few more years, just as I have done already. I will jump to a newer technology the instant it becomes available though. That includes FTTP on demand if they make it a reasonable price.
No doubt it must concern you that it costs you to upgrade to the next iteration each time, when the full FTTP option could be done now so much cheaper than stepping up a number of times � consumer exploitation IMO
BT would want to lock up the copper because it keeps out potential competition.
BT also charge a fee for just having it in the conduit when you get their FTTN � whether you want to use it or not. Check their charges/fees sheet on website. Money for nothing is valuable....
its Telstras greed. There is no reason they cant comply with the rules and roll out fibre, as other fibre providers do. They want to gouge as much money out of developer/customers as they can,
Of course do copper now, charge forit, and they know in next five years or so Fibre will be likely hauled, charge for it ...pay twice for same privilege
One day you will figure out that you live in a capitalist society.
Your presumption that everything capitalist societies do is good is blind faith at its worst � dare I point to GFC...
Greed is not good � whatever society you live in...
Greed is not good � whatever society you live in...
Are you saying that Gordon Gekko had it wrong?
nvm
Pity we can't do polls on wp, because I would be interested to know what people would be prepared to pay for fod..
I think I paid about $4k when my suburb told me we were implementing underground power.
I had no choice, it was lumped on to my rates over 2 years.
I'd get much more benefit from FTTP than U/G power, so about $5k with the ability to add it to my rates or pay it off over a decent period.
in the spirit of openness and transparency can anyone tell me how nbn� can show premises between 2 and 68 Fishermans Parade Daley's Point NSW as RFS when they are still running the fibre to the 2 micronodes that supply them?
does RFS now mean that the node is connected to a pillar or a control joint, but not to the FAN/AAS
Just remember that MDU averages closer to the 10 mark than the 50. FTTdP may be cheaper than HFC in this case. Large multiple MDU's would probably see FTTN per your point
10 per MDU sounds a reasonable mean/median premises count by MDU. But if you take the median by premises (ie what is the MDU size of the all premises in MDUs) or the weighted mean you'll get a higher answer, presumably much higher.
Put another way, even if the majority of MDUs get FTTdp, it's still likely the majority of MDU premises will get FTTN. As a result, I don't see how they will get 1mil on FTTdp, unless they've mis-used the averages to arrive at that number.
That said, long loops are unlikely to be the problem for FTTN in high density MDU areas, at least this decade.
Are you saying that Gordon Gekko had it wrong?
On the Silver Screen, No, in real life, in excess or as the only motivating factor, Yes.
Your presumption that everything capitalist societies do is good
I presume no such thing � I'm stating how things are.
You are the only one making presumptions � about my views.
I presume no such thing
I presume you're never going to face up to the fact that anything that isn't fibre, is wasted money.
In other words, tens of billions of dollars on a temporary network saves nothing. It just costs more.
Are you going to finally face the horror outside your door?
So, either BT management are clueless noobs with no business acumen, or you are.
The previous BT CTO pretty much confirmed it is the former.
Hmmm, tough decision.
Here's a tough decision. We either spend tens of billions on a network that will last 50 years and make billions in revenue per year for decades. Or we spend tens of billions on a network that will last 5 years and then have to spend tens of billions more in replacing it.
Tough, eh?
So, either BT management are clueless noobs with no business acumen, or you are
There's a 3rd option...maybe it's your interpretation that is from Mizar?
Companies make decisions for short term gain and long term losses all the time. Its not smart, but it gets the bonuses paid...
So, either BT management are clueless noobs with no business acumen, or you are. Hmmm, tough decision.
Or, their network and copper is far better maintained and the runs much shorten given the geography is much much different?
Edit: Double Post
Edit: Triple Post.
Tough, eh?
But the 5 year option will be "Fast, Affordable and Sooner!" we've been told!
If we reject reality and stick to what we've been told does that help?
But the 5 year option will be "Fast, Affordable and Sooner!" we've been told!
If we reject reality and stick to what we've been told does that help?
Yes, reality is rather unfortunate.
Many of us will remember how when Turnbull was questioned on the NBN in opposition he frequently said "a quarter to a third the cost". A lot of people believed him. And I suspect a lot of people are still left with that general impression.
If its cheap, you don't mind throwing it out after a few years. And in this case if they'd said "lets spend a few billion on some more ADSL2/VDSL in under-served areas while the fibre rollout ramped up" most people would forgive them for essentially throwing good money at a band aid.
But when they say they'll spend tens of billions and you know its temporary, what then?
I've been here since 2007. I've witnessed all kinds of rabbit holes being explored. But the fundamental value proposition is this.
Build it with fibre and you get something that's going to last 50 years and is going to still have value decades from now.
Build it with anything else but fibre and that money is never going to be recovered.
I guess (and I've said this before) the core LIE behind Turnbull's rhetoric (and that of his acolites here) is the lie that states that the money spent on the MTM replaces the need to build fibre, ever. The thing that galls me is that Turnbull has never, ever come out and stated this lie publicly. He's never said "look, copper isn't just good enough for now, it'll be good enough for another 20 years". His hired stooges have at times tried to imply this.
It also galls me (and its why I have barely disguised contempt for certain people here) that the Liberal apologists here are, when its boiled down, saying "the copper will be good enough for 20 years". But they don't have the heart, conviction, or honesty to flat out say it.
Unless we continue to use the copper for 20 years, the MTM cannot recoup its multi tens of billions cost. In other words its money being written off. And if we do use the copper for another 20 years we'll be well past the stage of being ridiculed by third world countries.
Edit: Of course, that's never going to happen. For a host of reasons we will switch to fibre in the next few years regardless of who is in charge. The danger has always been that Turnbull will flog off NBNco (that's always been his plan) and then Telstra ditches the worthless copper and builds fibre. The value proposition for Telstra has always been about regaining monopoly pricing. We only need remember the way Telstra created 256K and 512K speed tiers on ADSL, or the prices it charged for South Brisbane fibre, or the sorts of returns Telstra was asking for when "negotiating" with the Howard government to realise where this is headed.
Artificial scarcity. 100Mbps plans sold at $80+ wholesale meaning closer to $200 retail. And at the other end, a government subsidised version of "homeline budget" that "only" costs $50/month and gives you a whopping 12Mbps and which the taxpayer picks up some of the tab for. You don't have to look far into Telstra's marketing history to think of even nastier surprises.
The more that NBNco sinks (loses) on VDSL, the less value the network itself will have and the more that Telstra will demand monopoly rights as a sweetener to the deal. That's ultimately the prize. Not the physical assets, but the right to charge what the market will bear, in perpetuity. Of course this doesn't bother some people, whose world view is that if you're of below average earnings you deserve your lot in life and your kids deserve it too.
TURNBULL SAYS NBN 'IS THE WAY TO GO', CANS HIS MTM AND APOLOGISES FOR IMPOSING IT
01 April 2016
In a surprise announcement, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull revealed today that his MTM will now be terminated, effective immediately. 'There's no doubt the original 93% FTTP NBN was the way to go', he said, 'so we'll be reverting to that as soon as the present MTM arrangements can be wound up.'
It's understood that the change in policy was decided after it was repeatedly pointed out to the PM that his reversion to the obsolete MTM was completely inconsistent with the recently announced initiative to make Australia more agile and innovative.
Mr Turnbull said he deeply regretted the vast waste of money resulting from his policy of aborting NBN and substituting his MTM, and he hoped Australian endusers would accept his humble apology for such hubristic misjudgement and move on.
_____________________________
Someone had to do that :)
Or, their network and copper is far better maintained and the runs much shorten given the geography is much much different?
The copper may well be better maintained, but the rest of the issues remain. Very few people get the maximum speed. I've seen VDSL cabinets in the middle of nowhere, where none of its users are likely to be getting great speeds. I can *see* my cabinet and I get several Mbps less than maximum, especially if any more neighbours get connected and the crosstalk has its way.
Meanwhile the FTTPers down the road get 300Mbps today and even more at a flick of the switch
Unless we continue to use the copper for 20 years, the MTM cannot recoup its multi tens of billions cost. In other words its money being written off. And if we do use the copper for another 20 years we'll be well past the stage of being ridiculed by third world countries.
The worst part is the Libs will blame this write off on Labor because they started the NBN, and people will believe it.
If the Liberal Party are not held to account for what they did to the NBN, the money wasted and the setbacks to the nation I think I might actually lose it.
If the Liberal Party are not held to account for what they did to the NBN
Too right.....not only from the point of view of NBN Build and the stupidity of trying to destroy FTTP from a global point of view but also there is so much evidence of extremely poor financial and economic management � supposedly the key strength of LNP historically. One might argue it is now 'fear' but....
Someone had to do that :)
But in order to pay for it the NBN had to increase the CVC charge to $35/Mbit.
And that's a problem not caused by Mal
And that's a problem not caused by Mal
Its not one thats fixed my Mal either.
Its also the least of our problems given how FKD the MTM is on so many levels.
But i wouldn't expect the likes of you nor your posse to focus on what really matters.
I note Turnbull is applying the same strategy he did with NBN to Federalism.....he wishes to destroy it
Not only that. His keen legal mind is using the 'distraction' of federal/state funding to draw attention away from the NBNCo/nbn� debate.
A master tactician at his very best.
TURNBULL SAYS NBN 'IS THE WAY TO GO', CANS HIS MTM AND APOLOGISES FOR IMPOSING IT
01 April 2016
YEP! .............................. IT'S THAT TIME OF THE YEAR AGAIN!
value investing.
The idea is to pick stocks with high intrinsic worth which are, for whatever reason, currently undervalued by other investors.
Buy low, sell high; realise a gain.
Economists call it picking the low-hanging fruit: the strategic policy choices that deliver the biggest social return for lowest cost.
Investments in our human capital offer the best returns around.
Investing in our most vulnerable kids remains the best social investment strategy around. Only a foolish investor would turn his back on it.
Makes you wonder how the current Federal Government digital/infrastructure investment in the NBN/MTM rates in delivering social, economic and political returns.
Nice one Jess.
The value proposition for Telstra has always been about regaining monopoly pricing. We only need remember the way Telstra created 256K and 512K speed tiers on ADSL, or the prices it charged for South Brisbane fibre, or the sorts of returns Telstra was asking for when "negotiating" with the Howard government to realise where this is headed.
This. It reminds me of when bigpond cable came out. Far better than dial up, offering speeds of 10mbps down and 1up. And what did they charge? 65 a month for 100meg. Whats the point of having that speed of you will go through it in an hour or so? Because the extra data was 40cents or so (from memory). PROFIT gouging... They have never cared about the end user. Ever. Just profit. 3 hour hold times for tech support. The number of days I wasted on hold because there was No other option. And this is where we are heading with MTM. Consumers being pantsed for corporate profit, and again being funded by the tax payer. The MSM is complicit by not directly breaking it all down and being in support of "democratic capitalism". They have vested interests. We need far far more transparency in government than ever. What shits me is that when it's all done the fibs will blame it all on labor for creating the nbn, having created another monopoly infrastructure, Telstra being the saving grace to fix it all up, and reframe the whole arguement to make them look great and none of the MSM will properly investigate as any decent journo should do. A la nick Ross. I truly worry for the future of Australia
Damn... I've got $89 for ADSL1 200GB, plus $29 on top for phone line..
You will find Telstra are advertising 'up to' 25Mb/s 200Gb data Free Testra Air wifi and phone I think for $89/mth
I get for $89/mth FTTP 100/40 500Gb and I get near enough to all of that 100/40 all day not best effort of the day which is a lot less than advertised.
I'm not bragging, just pointing out how exploitational Telstra are and stu[pid the FTTN/MTM strategy is.
Any updates on how the NBN is going in that ABC Facebook poll? Are they still pulling comments down
Seems they have unhidden them this morning.
Can't say if our how many have been deleted.
NBN forgot to put itself on that list.
The most expensive scam in Australia's history.
Seems they have unhidden them this morning.
Can't say if our how many have been deleted.
I don't use Facebook but they do have a hide/show posts function. I'm not sure on deleting posts that are not yours though.
I don't use Facebook but they do have a hide/show posts function. I'm not sure on deleting posts that are not yours though.
The account holder can delete any comment they choose
With the debacle over tax policy today, and following on from the mess of the MTM, it is clear that Malcolm Turnbull has been performing the work of two men for quite some time.
Unfortunately, those men are Laurel and Hardy.
(Apologies to Ronnie Corbett)
...or Abbott and Costello
Nah, they're now out of date.
More recently it appears that by far the 'funniest' team for spectacular own goals on the NBN/MTM was, is, and always will be Abbott and Turnbull. How could anyone hope to surpass their combination of technical ignorance, crass incompetence and totally unfounded self-confidence?
Live chat midday today re #nbn coms industry with myself, @jodiesangster @SenatorLudlam @deniseshrivell https://blab.im/7y33a
I'm watching this on replay. Some quality issues, and Senator Ludlam had to overcome parliamentary firewall issues.
Effective Quality of Service on internet connections would help chats like this.
I'm watching this on replay. Some quality issues, and Senator Ludlam had to overcome parliamentary firewall issues.
Effective Quality of Service on internet connections would help chats like this.
Yep, look at that lag. ADSL doesn't even cut it for these basic teleconferences.
How could anyone hope to surpass their combination of technical ignorance, crass incompetence and totally unfounded self-confidence?
Beware the snake oil salesman performing three thimble tricks.....
He may well believe he has had the last laugh on NBN (we hope not) but don't be surprised the next step with tax will be ...the Labor premiers and Shorten have forced his hand to make upward changes to the income tax schedule....etc etc. � not his fault you know...and NBN was Abbott's fault too....
Got to laugh that the $80B was "never going to happen and just a figment...."
For goodness sake has Turnbull no shame ...? Does he really think we are that stupid he can just say anything and we would believe it...?
Got to laugh that the $80B was "never going to happen and just a figment..."
Just like the oh-so-very carefully tailored election campaign statement that the NBN 'would cost $94bn, if not a lot more.'
A confident assertion which evaporated once the campaign was finished, and hasn't been heard since.
For goodness sake has Turnbull no shame ...?
You know the answer to that.
With the debacle over tax policy today
another fully thought out policy of Turnbull, he seems to excel in these.
Just this time he had some people that have been playing the game longer than him.
Pity that there weren't any around when he wheeled out MTM
Hmm if it was a head injury it may have been fixed wireless roof fall?
Well I guess we'll have to wait for more details.
Sad news
Well I guess we'll have to wait for more details.
Sad news
Very sad news and one for OH&S to sort out appropriately
Very sad news and one for OH&S to sort out appropriately
thoughts go out to the family of the dead worker
There�s no denying Australia faces unique challenges in the rollout given the difficult and vast terrain of the country coupled with a mandate to service every Australian � something the company is quick to point out.
�Likening Australia�s broadband network roll out to a roll out in a country the size of Singapore is not comparable,� the spokesperson said. �We have only 24 million people but in one of the largest countries in the world.�
I've heard this line trotted out before by nbn when they claimed to be world leaders due to density. Quick reminder to them that they may be world leaders on Wireless/Satellite, but our significant urban concentration and density isn't that unique.
I find a certain degree of irony in their comparison to Singapore. Singapore is very high density, primarily made up of MDU's. MDU's being the locations that NBN are repeatedly stating as the most problematic and difficult to deploy to with Fibre.
the Malcolm turnbull skit 93% ftth is an april fool joke, When nbn co is still pusing his fttx/xx bullshit Policy..
Malcolm likely on said 93% to shut everyone up For someone like Malcolm to even sit in a communications chair in the first place because nobody wanted it, and the underlining FACT that he invests in Tech stocks both within australia past, present and future..
he already bloody knew it political suicide to ignore the 93% and already knew if he bothered to read past the 1st three pages of the commissioned report in to broadband as whole back in 93 which was latter cited in 2003/4 of the state of the communications network which has been piss poor since before the first t1 float before the corporate name change..
bigger question i have is does telstra actually own its ducts or do they own the access covers, I have yet see telstra pay in land taxes have you??? last time i checked telstra only leases 90% of its network in land value even if it is a 99 year lease arrangement..
I honestly think if the 93% isn't an april fool's joke I believe Malcolm is running scared shitless because he well know's he has a major conflict interest, socially, politically and personally and he don't want a royal commission citing his actions in the fttn affair and the puclics wasted to fibre to ther copper interconnects fiasco..
I honestly think if the 93% isn't an april fool's joke
There is 0 chance that Turnbull would even consider switching to a build with more fibre. A more plausible April fool's bit would be them scrapping FTTN in favor of a FTTdp rollout. But that won't happen either.
A more plausible April fool's bit would be them scrapping FTTN in favor of a FTTdp rollout. But that won't happen either.
Exactly. There would have been lots of gullable fools that would have swallowed that election year build-up fodder! As it is its got the fools tripping over themselves thinkings its some how even remotely possible/being considered. Anyone with half a brain knows it has two chances of being real, none and bucklies!
A spokesperson for the NBN has refuted the notion that Australia�s declining competitiveness in internet speeds is an indictment of the current NBN strategy.
�What the Akamai Report tells us is that we are on the right track � to focus on the fastest deployment we can to move Australia up that list. It is a fast global pace and we need to complete the rollout of the NBN network as soon as possible,�
I find this statement funny. So if I was to use this statement and apply it to something else, education for example:
'It's okay if my grades slip even further because I'm on the right track. I am on track in speeding up and building my career. I'm on track so fast, and I can definitely complete my education and achieve my career to be working with and in the biggest best employer in the world namely, McDonalds, as soon as possible'
Genius....I would put a freakin' meme in here if I was allowed to.
It used to be that April Fool's jokes were absurd in nature. Now they are sensible compared to the absurd reality of the NBN.
Until they get to the FTTDP powering and weight ISSUE sorted it is a great white elephant on the nener never deployment listing, ah droll is life laughing at the idots in Canberra,, I see Malcolm the we little boy has been is still dribbling bullshit , who did they ask I bet most of those survey's I bet came from the xerox machine in malcolms former office, and I guarantee you the people who were didn't have a bloody clue the what nbn should be vs what is claimed now as nbn..
I wonder if the little fact got out that malcolm in general sits within a conflict of interest within the whole fibre debate given fact that he had some form of investment in telecommunications within the time he sat opposite in as opposition comms minister, though we must not talk about that....
and we already knew he at time held shares within an australian ISP and also sat on its board of directors at 1 stage or another..
Has everyone seen that LNP (election mode) 'STEM' TVC, with the goal-oriented kids ?
Rather flies in the face of the LNP's NBN efforts.
Talk about wasting tax payer dollars...
You can really see Malcolm stumble and can't even put a solid argument together. His still defending the nonsense. "Server, serve, Survey?" lol, a rigged one?
If you had ADSL and went to VDSL of course you might think its god speed, but its not. Its already obsolete by today's standards.
Yet another negative News Corp story.
Oh, how the tide is turning.
Not looking good, Mal.
What's most interesting about this article is the choice of words for it's clickbait headline in the top part of the current news.com.au front page
Is the NBN now a national joke?
Comedy or tragedy?
Joking and headline trivialising about an up to or >$100B project ($ that will only grow when you take in whole of lifecycle costs (including the costs that have been shifted back onto residential and business customers direct from NBNCo or via increased RSP charges), in terms of anything but
- reckless financial and economic management
- reckless infrastructure management
- reckless asset management
- reckless risk mismanagement
- reckless political management
is in itself a tragedy.
With the owners and senior management of this trivialising "joke" headline, News Corp laughing their heads off at the benefits their organisation get's from this tragedy, in reducing and delaying the severity of a range of threats to their legacy businesses and business model. Whilst at the same time providing News Corp increased opportunities to gain physical and/or political power and control of key and strategic parts of Australia's Broadband Infrastructure at some point in the future.
With Australia's overseas nation state competitors (rest of the world), laughing their heads off at the competitive advantage Australia has just gifted them in enabling them to more easily attract and retain strategic human, strategic business assets, and their related, intellectual property, increased GDP, growth, tax revenue, productivity, cultural enrichment, standard of living, job and other opportunities they offer.
It is noted that the article "reports" (he said, she said) but does not provide "opinion and analysis".
For News Corp to only (or mostly only) report on such a huge and important and far-reaching project, and not provide detailed and balanced opinion and analysis (or open the article to reader comments) on the NBN/MTM/nbn, is in itself both a joke and a tragedy of epic proportions.
One could easily create a bot to do the he said she said reporting and posting. Even the opinion part could be handled by a bot. A bot embedded with the DNA of it's controllers and handlers.
anything less than 100/1000/10000/40000 capacity is a waste of time...
Its a shame that organisation didn't adopt a sensible position back in 2013.
Yes, where was all thees big guns when all this FTTN shit started to be set up, should have been nipped in the bud.
Probably to busy down the pub.
Yes, where was all thees big guns when all this FTTN shit started to be set up,
I think it's a lot to do with foxtel . Telstra serving their share and foxtel losing customers.
Murdoch could be pushing for a rethink on nbn technology choice policy , without actually condemning his favorite lnp.
Turnbull had to back down on coag funding, he may just have to back down on nbn policy too.
Who knows. Interesting times.
Murdoch could be pushing for a rethink on nbn technology choice policy , without actually condemning his favorite lnp.
It will be blatantly obvious when Murdoch is pushing for a rethink on nbn technology. You'll see editorial in his media on it, not just reporting.
Noting that the official Murdoch NBN policy is still the
https://ipa.org.au/public
69 Immediately halt construction of the National Broadband Network and privatise any sections that have already been built
With it's position at number 69 not representing it's rank of importance, but secretly representing a number that in the meaning of life is considered by many to be of great importance, pleasure, and eagerly awaited.
Until then one could be mistaken for getting the impression that Murdoch is considering the benefits of a temporary change in Federal Government to both get rid of the Turnbull threats and provide an opportunity to further pause, delay and slow down the implementation of improved broadband in Australia.
A quicker rolled out MTM/NBN is indisputably even more of a threat to Murdoch's legacy businesses and business model, than a slower to roll out more cost effective and value for money MTM/NBN.
Full-Metal-Alchemist writes...
spokesperson for the NBN has refuted the notion that Australia�s declining competitiveness in internet speeds is an indictment of the current NBN strategy.
�What the Akamai Report tells us is that we are on the right track � to focus on the fastest deployment we can to move Australia up that list. It is a fast global pace and we need to complete the rollout of the NBN network as soon as possible,�
I find this statement funny.
I find it absurd!! LNP/NBN Co perception management factory at the extreme end...
It's a bit like on Insiders today Henderson from Sydney Intitute (LNP apologists/think tank) promoting Turnbull as 'the great negotiator' � we've seen how the exact opposite (similar to above statement) is the reality when it comes to Turnbull/NBN CO negotiations...on behalf of taxpayers. Same with blame game on states for his failure on income tax shift where Turnbull doesn't have the courage to consider tax rises but states should.
We should all redefine our brain processes to recognise that the opposite of what is said is reality....
...the choice of words for it's clickbait headline in the top part of the current news.com.au front page
Is the NBN now a national joke?
Comedy or tragedy?
News Corp laughing their heads off at the benefits their organisation get's from this tragedy, ....providing News Corp increased opportunities to gain physical and/or political power and control of key and strategic parts of Australia's Broadband Infrastructure at some point in the future.
ahhh!! just sell off NBN Co and the problem is solved, its only taxpayers money after all and it is so much in their interest to do so... /S
I think its plausible that the Foxtel people have finally seen the writing on the wall and realise they need to move to IPTV.
I agree, satellites are not cost effective these days or in the future. For foxtel to bring 4k, 8k and so on they will need something decent to deliver them. Even 1080p content is bitrate limited on foxtel now (due to the lack of transponders) they can't add more HD content because they will either need to shut down existing channels or again cut bandwidth to existing HD channels.
Effectively they just need to invest in a next generation box, and their delivery network will be built for free (FTTP) no outlay, no ongoing costs (apart from the boxes) you'd have the wonder who advised Murdoch to destroy FTTP in the papers when he should have been pushing it's agenda.
I had a look at the Cannington FTTN rollout thread, it's been delayed RFS for 6 months in some locations which is terrible. This obviously has a knock on affect elsewhere
Edit: Plus universal access, no installation costs no callouts for dish re-alingments etc etc etc
Effectively they just need to invest in a next generation box, and their delivery network will be built for free (FTTP) no outlay, no ongoing costs (apart from the boxes) you'd have the wonder who advised Murdoch to destroy FTTP in the papers when he should have been pushing it's agenda.
I honestly believe that one of the reasons that Murdoch wanted to destroy FTTP was it was a plank that Labor could run with and if he hadn't promoted the "cheaper and faster" MTM then Labor might have just snuck in, or at least caused the Liberal's to have to form a minority government, which they said they would never do.
Destroy FTTP was one of the means to destroy the Labor party, now they News business realises (I think they even believed before the election that it may be needed) it it actually needs I decent IPTV delivery medium.
As it would seem even with the crappy one we have that the likes of Netflix and Stan have decimated the Foxtel model, where some believed that the crappy system may protect Foxtel.
So now they are starting to push for something other than FTTN.
Was wondering if backhaul is being upgraded in the areas that are getting fttn installed?
I'm still probably 18 months away from getting anything, well the roll out schedule that was released 6 months ago or so, said 2017 for build to start.
But i'm so fed up with congestion here. And I sure saying anything to Telstra is a waste of time. But was thinking if the backhaul doesn't get a major upgrade, then I can see things being so much worse with everyone in the area getting better speeds
I had a look at the Cannington FTTN rollout thread, it's been delayed RFS for 6 months in some locations which is terrible. This obviously has a knock on affect elsewhere
Does anyone have the data available that would allow allow direct comparison of current build ststus and what would have been if original NBN Plan was implemented...without slow down. If I recall speadsheets I saw pre 2013 election they went out to 2018 for FTTP... (?)
It will be blatantly obvious when Murdoch is pushing for a rethink on nbn technology.
I agree as this was just a token mention to appease people like myself and others who believe FTTP does not suit his present business model .
Fast upload speeds which FTTP would have given us did not suit Murdoch IMO .
Fast upload speeds would allow streaming between individuals and businesses which us Aussies should not have.
Has everyone seen that LNP (election mode) 'STEM' TVC, with the goal-oriented kids ?
You mean the one where they name jobs of the future with all techno sounding words thrown in like:
Tele-remote surgeon
Fashion technologist
Virtual reality tour company
3D-printing architect
Cyber-forensic scientist
Holographic animator
Which will rely on Science, Technology and Maths....
Hmmmm do you think maybe a high speed reliable and ubiquitous communication infrastructure would be needed or at the least of great benefit for it?
Seems not, apparently the "Ideas Boom" is so innovative that it doesn't need a high speed reliable and ubiquitous communications infrastructure to facilitate it.
So now they are starting to push for something other than FTTN.
Evidence please?
Does anyone have the data available that would allow allow direct comparison of current build ststus and what would have been if original NBN Plan was implemented...without slow down.
No but that would be some great data to see, as we known as they neared the end of the FTTP rollout phase they were getting it done quicker than anticipated. I'd be enjoying FTTP if the libs were not in power. Now my area is scheduled to start this quarter
Evidence please?
The myriad of news corp publications over recent weeks calling FTTN a dud? Or the ongoing reporting on how bad the FTTN actually is by news corp sources papers/online
It will be blatantly obvious when Murdoch is pushing for a rethink on nbn technology.
Just as obvious as the Murdoch position on NBN, and now MTM, has been. The current MTM structure, with Foxtel partner Telstra in a box seat, could be broadly seen as being in Murdoch's overall interest.
Perhaps now that the structure has changed away from the highly scalable NBN to the limited MTM, there may be pressure to upgrade aspects of it, so as to maximise effectiveness for Foxtel delivery.
And of course News Corp has diverse comms interests apart from Foxtel; they may be pressuring both the prime minister and communications minister to get favourable regulatory outcomes in other areas of comms policy unrelated to the MTM.
Noting that the official Murdoch NBN policy is still
Not necessarily at all. The current form of MTM will be good for several parts of News Corp operations, so in a choice between company self-interest and think-tank waffle, it may not be hard to see who wins.
You mean the one where they name jobs of the future with all techno sounding words
Yes, *that* TV ad'.
It's almost as if someone at the LNP is "extracting the urine".
Evidence please?
I believe that they number of articles coming out of the NEWS stable mentioning criticism of FTTN is a start of a campaign, before this recent series of events all articles were critical of FTTP and Labor's plans and were promoting the wonders of MTM
of course I could be totally wrong
But wIth NEWS Corp being involved in large scale fibre rollouts in the UK, through SKY, it is obvious that the business knew that high speed internet was needed to expand their customer base outside their locked in ecosystem
I believe that they number of articles coming out of the NEWS stable mentioning criticism of FTTN is a start of a campaign, before this recent series of events all articles were critical of FTTP and Labor's plans and were promoting the wonders of MTM
Key opinion writers in News Ltd this week look to have put some warning shots across the bow. It includes the most recent by Dennis Shanahan which talked up Labor management (here). If the editorials appear, then the ship has changed course, and I'd expect nbn to play some traction in it, particularly now that Foxtel ISP has launched and their business focus by competition shifts to IP demand.
For News Corp to only (or mostly only) report on such a huge and important and far-reaching project, and not provide detailed and balanced opinion and analysis (or open the article to reader comments) on the NBN/MTM/nbn, is in itself both a joke and a tragedy of epic proportions.
And what was News saying/doing before the last election? Happy then to stir their sludge in the opposite direction. Whatever suits their business plan.
of course I could be totally wrong
But wIth NEWS Corp being involved in large scale fibre rollouts in the UK, through SKY, it is obvious that the business knew that high speed internet was needed to expand their customer base outside their locked in ecosystem
Couldn't we just throw them into prison and save the taxpayers of Australia millions.
For News Corp to only (or mostly only) report on such a huge and important and far-reaching project, and not provide detailed and balanced opinion and analysis
There is a limit to how far even the best editor can skew the truth for political advantage.
When the truth is so obvious that blind Freddie can see it � as in this case � the truth must come out or the paper will start to look like a laughing stock. The politicians need an honest media to keep them honest and that is often not the case sadly.
Show me these Stooges writes...
Couldn't we just throw them into prison and save the taxpayers of Australia millions.
Pretty hard to get them convicted of anything.
Phone hacking and Pay tv hacking come to mind.
Show me these Stooges writes...
Whatever suits their business plan.
With no consideration for the Australian public.
There is a limit to how far even the best editor can skew the truth for political advantage.
That's pretty true � most people are good at using personal BS detectors. An unfortunate exception might be any NBN topics, where some waffly techno-babble and a charming pic of an old couple sadly contemplating their (allegedly) about-to-be-extinct rose bed, can add up to a pretty powerful effect.
politicians need an honest media to keep them honest and that is often not the case sadly.
It seems the number one rule of most media operators is to look after number one.
NBN/MTM stories or anything else, including much of their high-profile 'public interest campaigning', tend to be secretly driven by that same number one rule anyway.
of course I could be totally wrong
I think you are close to the mark. What scares the conservative press is that they've supported the MTM without question, and now it really is looking like the emperor has no clothes, they have to sink the boot in to retain their credibility. Doesn't take blind Freddy to realise that we went from a generational change in comms to an incremental change, for about the same budget and the same timeframe...and with an even bigger bill soon to follow to move to that generational change...
Show me these Stooges writes...
And what was News saying/doing before the last election? Happy then to stir their sludge in the opposite direction. Whatever suits their business plan.
I think Murdoch was a fan of Abbot (who he could control). Less sure of Turnbull. As we have seen from the UK Murdoch here very close to individuals
Lightning bb a threat to nbn?
Maybe not..
http://blog.jxeeno.com/lightning-broadband-shenanigans/
As for real world performance? One of the leading �point-to-point� Wi-Fi hardware providers, Ubiquiti, claims its NanoStation M5 (5.8GHz) Wireless Bridge & WiFi AP can deliver 150 Mbps. With a beamwidth of anywhere between 42 and 60 degrees, you�ll have to share the same 150 Mbps bandwidth with everyone on the same sector as you.
Not exactly lightning speed as soon as you have a dozen or so people on the network during peak times �
Ken Tsang � ?@jxeeno
Friendly reminder that #nbn has now officially missed its target of updating the "3 year construction plan" quarterly by 3 months.
Z
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
Friendly reminder that #nbn has now officially missed its target of updating the "3 year construction plan" quarterly by 3 months.
So now we're waiting for two reports?
Friendly reminder that #nbn has now officially missed its target of updating the "3 year construction plan" quarterly by 3 months.
And tomorrow we'll get told yet again how they have and continue to meet all their targets.....
And tomorrow we'll get told yet again how they have and continue to meet all their targets.....
And how they are being more transparent. Say one thing and do the opposite... What's that term again?
Also note that on the last 3 year plan, the data was actually a month and a half old as well. We might get a new plan with data as of 1 Dec 2015, if we're lucky!
Why did NBN have a freeze 6months before election in 2013?
Could the same thing be happening now, that's why the reports are 'late' because everything is on hold. Only sites that started builds are getting finished, all build preps are on hold?
Now that he has seen that it does nothing of the kind, he is waking up and realising that now the only way forward for Pay TV in Australia is UHD delivered over the Internet.
His part-owned UK operation seems to have got that memo long ago � Sky is one of the UK's largest ISPs (and one of the largest customers of BT's infrastructure arm), and they (along with another big ISP) have built their own FTTP network (1Gbit symmetric), from scratch, in one UK city.
They've just released a new TV box that is supposed to do a much better job of combining satellite + IP than ever before
His part-owned UK operation seems to have got that memo long ago � Sky is one of the UK's largest ISPs (and one of the largest customers of BT's infrastructure arm), and they (along with another big ISP) have built their own FTTP network (1Gbit symmetric), from scratch, in one UK city.
So Murdoch would be in full detailed possession of the real insider information of the costing/profit of such a investment.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
So Murdoch would be in full detailed possession of the real insider information of the costing/profit of such a investment.
It certainly proves that the internet isn't a huge killer for his business model. BTW I got it wrong, the Sky FTTP service is "only" 1Gbit down, 100Mbit up with other slower speeds also available
I believe Foxtel has routinely imported technologies and platforms that first debuted with Sky � so maybe such revolutionary new thinking is on its way to the Australian operation
Could the same thing be happening now, that's why the reports are 'late' because everything is on hold.
We are not in caretaker mode yet. The DD hasn't yet taken place..
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
But it could be in U turn prep mode.
Doesn't excuse failure to provide reports.
Doesn't excuse failure to provide reports.
You are correct on that I apologize for that, I note the the LNP are generally as transparent to scrutiny as a sheet of Copper their favorite metal.
It certainly proves that the internet isn't a huge killer for his business model.
Actually it is a massive threat to his existing business models. His previous attempts to push traditional models to internet models have been expensive failures.
Micropayment for news items
Foxtel VOD
Australian paywall (before deep linking protection, and some after..)
He does realise that the change will happen, the support for Abbott just helped him control that change, and ensure legislation was changed to support his future models. (media ownership, 'netflix' tax)
Now he can see a working example of his future business model, he needs FTTP to go from 19% 'cable' coverage (the amount of AU houses covered by Foxtel cable before MTM discussions increased it to almost 33%) to 93%+
Of course he still seems upset that Turnbull knifed Abbott.
Now he can see a working example of his future business model, he needs FTTP to go from 19% 'cable' coverage (the amount of AU houses covered by Foxtel cable before MTM discussions increased it to almost 33%) to 93%+
Of course he still seems upset that Turnbull knifed Abbott.
well it was possible that with Abbott still in charge and a reshuffle with a move of Mal from the Comms portfolio could have seen a change in roll out types with Tony saying
"I was advised by Mal that this was the best way forward, he should have known, after all he practically invented the internet in Australia"
Bit hard for Mal to claim a similar thing as he is personally involved and it would totally undermine his credibility to admit that he acted purely on Abbot's instructions and against his thoughts on the best way forward in his portfolio area
The Un-Australian strikes again!
They literally have nothing left to report on against the Labor NBN.
Poor Annabel HepworthI looks such the fool
http://www.telecompaper.com/
Little bit off topic, but a good look at why the NBN must die against Foxtel.
(The Dutch version)
Mal that this was the best way forward, he should have known, after all he practically invented the internet in Australia"
This is the kind of BS spin we have to listen to.
No the guy didn't invent the internet in Australia. He introduced it to Australia. There is a big difference.
AFAIK, the internet was developed in the US by academics and potentially the Military had something else going.
Mal just setup an ISP called Ozemail here. Abbott was the clown sprouting out this nonsense. The whole thing is reflective of their party and Mal continuing the legacy.
I really can't wait until they announce an election date and get turfed out.
More leaks..
The two internal NBN documents obtained by The Australian Financial Review combine to show that NBN's expectations for the completion of numerous parts of the FTTN network by April 1 were missed, with some areas delayed by as much as 87 days.
['The news will provide more ammunition for opponents of the government's approach to broadband, which sacrificed the superior performance of Labor's planned fibre to the premise model, in favour of a policy it said would deliver improved services faster and cheaper.'
The March document refers to the same FTTN areas as NBN's November plan, showing that all 40 FTTN areas have been delayed, and none were ready by last Friday as planned.
Unsurprised. There are 2 nodes here in 4ROT-0x that techs have been wiring up non-stop for 2 weeks, including both public holidays of Easter
The Un-Australian strikes again!
They literally have nothing left to report on against the Labor NBN.
Poor Annabel HepworthI looks such the fool
Communications Minister Mitch Fifield is taunting Labor to detail its policy on the National Broadband Network as work progresses on a new technology that could take fibre to household driveways.
Well that's not true.. It is only being done where long distances proclude fttn . And also includes fttb.
They are not planning on using fttdp as an alternative to fttn.
Mal just setup an ISP called Ozemail here.
He didn't even do that. Ozemail was already a going concern... Mal simply invested money in the company, which was nicely timed, and rode the internet boom to increasing his wealth portfolio.
He didn't even do that. Ozemail was already a going concern... Mal simply invested money in the company,
I suppose Liberals can say that Mal invented FTTH in France/Spain ?!? :)
Mal simply invested money in the
Our money in MTM
and rode the internet boom to increasing his wealth portfolio.
The internet "Doom MTM" decreasing the mug's (us) Australians wealth.
Morrow & NBN are saying they will have 1 in almost 4 premises RFS by June 30 2016.
It looks like they are on track for RFS of 2 million very soon, however I believe the total no of prem's is 12 million or so. So in order to be at 1 in almost 4, they have to have another almost 1 million prem's ready in 3 mths. This leads me to believe they will just switch over most Telstra HFC's to NBN by end of June, though they havent announced any plans to do this recently...
Mal simply invested money in the company, which was nicely timed,
Like a lot of lawyers and accountants, MT was just flat out lucky in being within the orbit of Packer/ACP. How many people get a 100 fold return in 5 years. Of course, because he did so well he now thinks he's a major league enterpreneur and visionary.
He introduced it to Australia. There is a big difference.
no he didn't, he invested in a company that had its roots about 10 years before he put money into it, he was very late onto the scene in reality. Ozemail and corporate predecessors had been running well before he became involved
It looks like they are on track for RFS of 2 million very soon, however I believe the total no of prem's is 12 million or so. So in order to be at 1 in almost 4, they have to have another almost 1 million prem's ready in 3 mths. This leads me to believe they will just switch over most Telstra HFC's to NBN by end of June, though they havent announced any plans to do this recently...
If they can pull it off (get 1M prems for zero field work) that will look very cute (sugar hit) until the Dec 16 report on revenue sets up the trend.
Thereafter maintaining the implied run rate to close out the remaining 9M prems whilst generating some $ will be tricky.
Classic short term management with the wrong KPI's ... solve tomorrows problems in a months time by kicking the can down the road for as long as possible � then blame someone else!
https://delimiter.com.au/201
From Renai on the leaked documents
Of course, because he did so well he now thinks he's a major league enterpreneur and visionary.
That's what he and his benefators want us to believe anyway. That's the latest in a string of false narratives the Liberal Party have needed to sugar coat their true agenda.
I just hope some of the facts about the NBN pre and post the Coalition Government can cut through the spin and utter lies, especially during election time.
They need to be held accountable.
Mal simply invested money in the company, which was nicely timed, and rode the internet boom to increasing his wealth portfolio.
It wasn't even his money. A politician mate borrowed it for him.
He's really lucky to find someone to buy it at the ridiculous price they did. Ozemail was leaking money like a sieve. The company that bought it was buying up all sorts of ISPs to try and hide the corrupt accounting that eventually ended the company a year or so later.
In fact that's what Malcolm did in the company, tried to find someone stupid enough to buy it before it went broke. Before he found the desperate Wordcom, he was packaging it up to sell to US celebs as an investment and couldn't get a bite.
We are not in caretaker mode yet. The DD hasn't yet taken place..
One notes the application by Border Forces (Dept of Immigration?) has made application to Fair Work to stop Unions from striking fro THREE MONTHS � must be an election pending? Clearly a political manoeuvre.
So expectation that any info on FTTN/MTM failure and spectacular delays (already 6 months delays within 6 months of starting...good planning � not, if any?) are in the same vein � political manoeuvring for DD election � increasingly obvious it is a set up to blame Senate cross bench for DD and States for not raising taxes.
This leads me to believe they will just switch over most Telstra HFC's to NBN by end of June, though they havent announced any plans to do this recently...
Good luck with that one! Telstra are scrambling to upgrade their HFC network with the new Arris CMTS, in some/most areas they have to run multiple down-times across several months before they then move to another 2-3 months to kick-off D1.1 cable users to clear the spectrum. And this is the easy part (same customers, same service)!
The fun will begin when NBN attempt to do a real upgrade (more customers, improved upstream, and wholesale access). I guess having a Telstra HFC fit for purpose (the Telstra upgrades happening now) will help but as with FTTN there are bound to be gremlins which will also create delays in the HFC, but these we won't know about until later this year.
Of course, because he did so well he now thinks he's a major league enterpreneur and visionary.
I would not call Malcolm Turnbull an entrepreneur or visionary, he simply benefited from the Internet bubble as an investor. What did Malcolm contributed to the Telecom Industry that was visionary? After he became Telecom Minister he was tasked with destroying the NBN.
No idea why the Ozemail Wikipedia article is made part of a Malcolm Turnbull series. That is probably the reason why Wikipedia is not to be used as academic source.
Would not call Simon Hackett and Michael Malone entrepreneurs or visionaries either, they were simply early adopters during the Internet bubble and benefited that way. If any contribution was made to them to the Telecom Industry then it was mostly definitely destroyed once they sold their shares to TPG.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
Destroying, it seems to be a recurring word in our Industry. Fact is though that when you are capable of making personal financial gain, it doesn't make you a entrepreneur or visionary individual.
It doesn't mean you deliver anything to the common benefit of Australia either. It just makes people personal rich plus the authority to call other people "the chicken army". Or you start to talk about flying and Tesla cars. To make yourself relevant and more important than the average Australian.
[Edit: Added link, fixed up some spelling]
wonder if it is an underlying nbn� issue or an RSP one, but with NTDs needing "rewiring" it would seem to be at least partly at teh nbn� level
whrl.pl/ReAEvw
"Two weeks ago some tech from NBNCo rocked up and 'rewired' our NTDs � no forewarning and took us offline for a couple of hours. While totally unacceptable, we grinned and moved on.
Though now that 'rewired' NTD went offline, taking three connections with it."
wonder if it is an underlying nbn� issue or an RSP one
Worry, really start worrying, it will become progressively worse for the remainder of this year. We don't have one problem at hand anymore, not 10, but many more.
Think about plastic bags and duct tape and you got the correct impression of our Telecom Industry.
Also there is not something as NBN business service with RSPs.
wonder if it is an underlying nbn� issue or an RSP one
Worry, really start worrying, it will become progressively worse for the remainder of this year. We don't have one problem at hand anymore, not 10, but many more.
Think about plastic bags and duct tape and you got the correct impression of our Telecom Industry.
Also there is not something as a NBN business service. Because it is advertised like that, it is called like that, doesn't make it a NBN business service. It is simply a residential NBN service with a few added benefits (if any).
Much the same that we call FTTN, a super-fast broadband service. :)
Think about plastic bags and duct tape and you got the correct impression of our Telecom Industry.
please don't tell me they have reverted to plastic bags on the FTTP build already, although I guess it will be a bit hard to get a fibre signal through a couple of "scotchies"
The Un-Australian strikes again!
This is behind a paywall for me (maybe a good thing for my sanity?). I am sure I know the crux of it though. Here are some comments from Mitch Fifield from a different article:
"Labor don't have an NBN plan or an NBN policy and are still running away from the mess that was the Conroy NBN," the minister said.
"All Labor can say is there should be more fibre. But they can't say where it would be, when it would be, what the additional cost would be. Labor can't even say how their approach would differ from the Coalition's multi-technology approach. The truth is, Labor have crab-walked away from a full fibre network � they just won't admit it."
I think his plan is to try to paint Labor into a corner. If Labor try to do their 93% fibre plan, it means overbuilding current MTM areas and expensive and time consuming renegotiation of contracts (as we saw with LNP). The LNP will be able to do cost analysis and say it will cost 1 trillion dollars (or whatever large number they come up with) and this will play in to their narrative of Labor's reckless spending. If Labor take a more pragmatic approach of doing FTTP for any new sites and honoring existing contracts, LNP can accuse them of abandoning their original proposal and embracing the MTM.
Whatever Labor do it is going to need to be well planned and require good salesmanship. One thing they will have going for them if they get the plan right, is they will have the support of a lot of the internet community, which can be a powerful allie. Labor found out during the debacle of mandatory internet filtering, that when you annoy large sections of the online community, it means you lose the ability to try to engage with them during the election campaign without getting a lot of negative comments coming back (even if the topic has nothing to do with the NBN).
Mitch Fifield's job is damage control. They do not want the NBN as a big election issue as they know it is a vote loser any way you look at it.
please don't tell me
I know an Estate that drops off the Internet (over all RSPs) on a regular basis.
Morrow & NBN are saying they will have 1 in almost 4 premises RFS by June 30 2016.
It looks like they are on track for RFS of 2 million very soon, however I believe the total no of prem's is 12 million or so. So in order to be at 1 in almost 4, they have to have another almost 1 million prem's ready in 3 mths. This leads me to believe they will just switch over most Telstra HFC's to NBN by end of June, though they havent announced any plans to do this recently...
yes and that of course then locks in NBNCo to pay for all maintenance on the entire Telstra HFC network or pay Telstra compensation.
RFS, which the Libs kicked Labor over, is still being used as a metric I see.
Large swathes of 2WOY-04-xx are still unserviceable, although called RFS, they are still installing some of teh fibre links for heavens sake.
nbn� asked to be able to declare individual ADAs as serviceable, but now it seems they don't like that as it may show more of the actual truth
Heck, turn on Skymuster and you have RFSed about 400,000 premises, doesn't mater that only a handfull are actually connected, nice jump in numbers for the "chest beating" announcements though
Morrow & NBN are saying they will have 1 in almost 4 premises RFS by June 30 2016.
From which a minuscule amount of RFS premises on FTTN and the remaining massive amount on NBNv1. When we take active premises into consideration, the minuscule amount on FTTN only becomes smaller and the massive amount on NBNv1 only becomes bigger. :)
Just spent a few days on my brothers farm outside of gore � deep south New Zealand. He gets better 4G at his house in the hills outside of gore than I do in Darra, 15 min from Brisbane CBD.
Spoke a bit with my other Brother down from Wellington � he raved about how ubiquitous internet connectivity (my words not his, but basically what he meant) had improved his Sole Owner business (House Security and Medical alarms). He has high speed fibre at home and a high quota phone plan with it, with his wife and kids included. Keeps all his docs etc on onedrive sync'd between his desktop, surface pro and android phone. No longer goes home to check for faxes etc, just gets and closes jobs via email while he's travelling between clients, who mostly have reliable internet now to.
This is was the NBN was supposed to do for Oz, the opportunities for small business are amazing.
Mitch Fifield's job is damage control. They do not want the NBN as a big election issue as they know it is a vote loser any way you look at it
Hes trying to get ALP to table their NBN policy before the election is called..
Not going to happen. They want to keep it under wraps until the campaign is under way..
But it does show how scared they are of the NBN becoming an Election issue.
...Still waiting for this fully costed, ready to go plan...
Hes trying to get ALP to table their NBN policy before the election is called..
Not going to happen. They want to keep it under wraps until the campaign is under way..
Do you know off the top of your head at what point in 2013 that the LNP released their "fully costed" broadband policy?
Do you know off the top of your head at what point in 2013 that the LNP released their "fully costed" broadband policy?
Well here is their original wonderful policy. Not sure of the exact date in 2013 this was released.
https://www.liberal.org.au/f
Hes trying to get ALP to table their NBN policy before the election is called..
I wondering if it would be smarter politics for Labor to release early rather than let the LNP wedge them. Something generic like restart FTTP, maybe with FTTdp were it makes sense.
I guess the problem is the complete lack of access to nbn financials.
guess the problem is the complete lack of access to nbn financials.
I guess they can just take the 2013 LNP approach. Get it costed at under $30 Billion and then if you win power you can just increase it as required (and also come up with an over-inflated cost estimate of the other side's plan).
"so um yeah we fked up..
the most cost-effective way for taxpayers. The rollout of FTTN is key to achieving this goal.
oh so now it's "cost effective" rather than cheapest?
If they can pull it off (get 1M prems for zero field work) that will look very cute (sugar hit) until the Dec 16 report on revenue sets up the trend.
These mobs will pull off anything, since they don't provide transparency or accountability, they can waffle on and make up the numbers. Its not like they havn't already done so with existing numbers.
2 million homes RFS, most of them came online when labor was running the NBN.
I wondering if it would be smarter politics for Labor to release early rather than let the LNP wedge them
More effective to release policy closer to election date..
This is was the NBN was supposed to do for Oz, the opportunities for small business are amazing.
Time. Our most precious resource. Unless you've figured out how to live forever.
WTF is "Handsard" � is that like a parody of Hansard? If so, Morrow's comments would fit right in. Has he given a straight answer to a question yet in any of those Senate hearings?
First it was FTTN because it was faster and quicker money in the kitty..
Now that isn't happening, its now more cost effective..
NBN you are running out of bullshit to say
The Scarlet Pimpernel writes...
Has he given a straight answer to a question yet in any of those Senate hearings?
Yes.. "Taken on notice" and "commercial in confidence"
http://www.computerworld.com
Labor preparing to embrace FTTdp, Fifield claims..
Communications minister Senator Mitch Fifield has claimed that Labor�s broadband spokesperson, Jason Clare, is preparing to unveil an NBN policy that will see the use of fibre to the distribution point (FTTdp) for a significant portion of the National Broadband Network�s fixed line footprint.
�While Labor have been campaigning in support of fibre to the premise (FTTP), recent public comments by Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare appear to be an attempt to �soften up� the public for a change in approach and a shift to using copper,� a statement from the minister said.
Fifield claimed that such a policy would be a �backflip� for Labor.
The alp have not yet released their nbn policy, so that's just surfboarding..
Jason has said all along, that they would bring back more fibre into the mix where possible. He has also said that this would be difficult to do without stranding current fttn assetts.
So what if he intends to use fttdp in the mix? That's far better than fttn and opens the way for fod.
I don't see fifeild intending to roll out general fttdp in place of fttn.
BTW if any one was wondering how Kevin Andrews expressing an interest in becoming PM (hahaha) may affect things NBN wise
He has consistently voted against
https://theyvoteforyou.org.a
Apart from that, he has just parroted coalition talking points
Communications minister Senator Mitch Fifield has claimed that Labor�s broadband spokesperson, Jason Clare, is preparing to unveil an NBN policy that will see the use of fibre to the distribution point (FTTdp) for a significant portion of the National Broadband Network�s fixed line footprint.
It's interesting that this is almost word for word what Jason Claire said Mitch Fifield would do. He also said it would be a backflip. With both of them claiming the other will switch to FTTdp, maybe it's a good indication that it is a middle ground compromise, at least in the interim.
maybe it's a good indication that it is a middle ground compromise, at least in the interim.
Possibly.
Poor Annabel HepworthI looks such the fool
Poor Annabel Hepworth looks like desperately attempting to carry out orders she doesn't understand, and which largely relate to industry sectors which seem a foreign activity in regard to her reporting.
r will switch to FTTdp, maybe it's a good indication that it is a middle ground compromise, at least in the interim.
yeh i dont care who backflips
fttdp is still infinetly better than the dud fttn roll out.
atleast theres an upgrade path. Ill be willing to shell out up to 2 grand to get fibre connected to my home.
with fttn the cost is atleast 5-10x higher if not impossible.
atleast theres an upgrade path
So where's that leave poor schmucks who already have FTTN RFS ? Will this ever go FTTdp ?
Friendly reminder that #nbn has now officially missed its target of updating the "3 year construction plan" quarterly by 3 months.
Well, just for fun (literally, because I know it never makes any difference), from time to time I submit an "enquiry" via the NBN� website. It doesn't seem to bother them that I add some sarcasm. I always get a nifty cut-and-paste answer of some kind. There are always some entertaining nuggets in them as well.
Anyway � on March 29 I fired one off.
The NBN website says the Three Year Construction Plan will be "updated quarterly." Has it been updated? If not, when will it be? I'm anxious to see an up to date list of all the areas being upgraded to Fibre before me even though they can already get unlimited ADSL data plans, while I have to wait until at least 2020 with access to only 10gb per month of snails-pace 3G.
Their automated response says
Thank you, your enquiry has been successfully submitted. Your reference number is 511066-XXXXXX. We will endeavour to respond within five business days.
Day 5 tomorrow. Watch this space lol.
edited for grammar
"so um yeah we fked up.."
FTTN continues to be the fastest technology to deploy at scale, taking neighbourhoods with little or no broadband to speeds of 50-100 Mbps.
The leaks over the last few weeks raise very serious questions regarding the validity of this claim.
The Strategic Review detailed the average build time for a FttP FSAM at ~7.1 months (the benchmark for this was ~7 months). This was also using the first revision architecture, not 'skinny fibre'. Therefore any FttP delays must be related to aspects other than the build. This leaves Design, Build Prep and Testing.
I am not aware of any publicly acknowledged benchmarks for FttN. However the initial 'Construction Trial' (JDWC), which began in mid 2014, was for ~12 months. Premises from this trial began to be declared RFS from October 2015.
I am not aware when the actual FttN 'scale deployment' began (those outside the JDWC). It seems to be August 2015 (for Build Commenced) according to the IDP spreadsheet linked in the article below.
The Financial Review article reveals that of those SAMs outside the JDWC, all 40 FTTN areas have been delayed, and none were ready by last Friday (April 1 2016) as planned.
A fairly cursory examination suggests build times in the order of 5 months+, however it is difficult to say due to the range of milestones in the design and build stages.
I don't see why journalists allow Fifield to get away with the "6-8 years sooner and $30 billion cheaper than Labor" line.
We are 31 months since the last election and the MTM has so far delivered less than 300K FttN/B premises TBMK.
Compare that to the 31 months prior to the last election.
A point of interest, according to the IDP document the FttB tally is 15530 as of November 2015, with nothing scheduled for RFS until 30/04/2017 (19 premises?). No wonder it is grouped with FttN.
That has to be the worst-edited blog post I've seen... well, almost anywhere.
How much are lnpnbncotm paying their PR staff?
Less than the price of a coffee machine, I'd posit, for work of that calibre.
How much are lnpnbncotm paying their PR staff?
Blogs should have a public right to comment..
But they wouldn't dare..
So where's that leave poor schmucks who already have FTTN RFS ? Will this ever go FTTdp ?
Such is the luck with MTM lotto, since they took control. At least with NBNv1, 93% of Australia would have 1 fixed type of fibre network.
Apparently Mitch Field thinks putting everything into a single KISS technology was stupid and bad. So he came up with MTM lotto and upto randomness.
A point of interest, according to the IDP document the FttB tally is 15530 as of November 2015, with nothing scheduled for RFS until 30/04/2017 (19 premises?). No wonder it is grouped with FttN.
From what I've been told they're only doing FTTB when there isn't capacity on the Node and even then they are dropping another Node out on the street to serve the MDU. (copy and paste of my own comment from vdsl2 thread).
FTTB in FTTN areas seems to be dead. There are more in FTTP areas as what I would call infill.
In the photo of the cabinet in this article... are those 4 red boxes at the bottom the batteries required for each node??
atleast theres an upgrade path. Ill be willing to shell out up to 2 grand to get fibre connected to my home.
Telstra only charge $299 to connect a new landline if the end user digs the trench to the house.
https://www.telstra.com.au/home-phone/plans-rates
2000 dollars would be a ripoff. But then, FTTN per house is suspiciously high too if the copper is in good condition.
FTTB in FTTN areas seems to be dead.
Indeed. It will be interesting to see how the numbers compare to answers to QoN on this topic at the latest senate hearings.
Guys its okay, Mitchy has us covered.
He is the penultimate DILL.
Undisputed world champion of lack of knowledge say any thing politician .
"And this financial year, of all of the premises that nbn has rolled out to with FTTN and FTTB, only two premises have paid to upgrade to FTTP under the �Technology Choice� program"
Of course nothing about how much they had to pay.
I thought in last Senate hearing (march 15) that one of the nbn� execs said it was 4 or 5 individuals had completed the tech choice program.
Those four or five would cover FW and Sat as well not just FTTN/B.
In order to go forwards, you must go backwards... and then reverse some more..
and then travel back a little bit more.
Eventually you will travel so far back you will be in front.
Makes perfectly good sense to me.
Well that is actually true, if you are traveling on the surface of a three-dimensional object without a predetermined boundary.
How long ago was he unaware of these two solutions?
Up until there was en election close and all the #^$@ about the MTM was finally coming out and needed something to manipulate to try and save it.....
They need to go. This. Is. Unacceptable
https://delimiter.com.au/201
http:/
At some point when another government is formed, I hope this Idiot rots in jail and takes his bosses with him. Media should NEVER be controlled by the governments. What a load of crap! He ignored freaking clear evidence, then twists his words and he has no idea what he is even talking about. His a parrot!
["Those four or five would cover FW and Sat as well not just FTTN/B.
How much would a FW or a Satellite connection (remember the LTTS has not yet been released) cost to be converted to FOD?
if it is that dear that almost no-one can afford to do a FTTN to FTTP how many millions would it cost to do a FW to FTTN?
And the same goes for a Satellite to FW connection, install a new tower and all backhaul specifically for one premises?
http://www.zdnet.com/articl
At some point when another government is formed, I hope this Idiot rots in jail and takes his bosses with him.
Labor will roll out more fibre. Not all fibre, just more fibre, which is tantamount to an admission that the Coalition's technology-agnostic business model is right," Fifield argued.
He can argue all he likes.. Doesn't make it true.
Labor will roll out more fibre. Not all fibre, just more fibre, which is tantamount to an admission that the Coalition's technology-agnostic business model is right," Fifield argued.
It will be dependant on funding not pissed down the copper drain being available.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
It will be dependant on funding not pissed down the copper drain being available.
Sell the copper buy more fibre. Still wouldn't be enough but id rather that happen then roll out more copper
RFS, which the Libs kicked Labor over, is still being used as a metric I see.
yeah but what dos it actually mean...the node is ready for cut over and everything else is 'perfect' � not!!
What do users actually get?
Do you know off the top of your head at what point in 2013 that the LNP released their "fully costed" broadband policy?
Turnbull released a couple of months (April /May? iirc) prior to election a heralded document that eventually meant nothing at all...
The ready to go was two and a half years late ..... stilll waiting... and the fully costed went from $30B to $56B....
Great economic and fiscal management that...
I guess the problem is the complete lack of access to nbn financials.
any details at all in fact....
The best chance for minimising FTTN is to demand FTTP, but settle for FTTdp as a compromise :)
Demand FTTdp and you'll just get FTTN.
From what I've been told they're only doing FTTB when there isn't capacity on the Node and even then they are dropping another Node out on the street to serve the MDU.
FTTB in FTTN areas seems to be dead. There are more in FTTP areas as what I would call infill.
As I've commented in these forums a few times, NBN Co rolling out FTTN in place of FTTB to brownfield MDU's, is partly a way to attempt get ahead of any TPG/Wondercom FTTB or any other FTTB competitors. To lock them out of the opportunity to FTTB up MDU's. And to bypass the worst of the Body Corporate issues with FTTB.
That's probably partly where the NBN Co CiC about the FTTN v FTTB rollout comes from. So that TPG and any other potential competitors don't get much forewarning of where FTTN is going to service MDU's within the FTTN footprint.
The same will likely happen in the HFC footprint. NBN Co will likely talk up FTTB and FTTdp to brownfield MDU's, but then probably quietly and more quickly rollout FTTN to Brownfields wherever possible.
The best chance for minimising FTTN is to demand FTTP, but settle for FTTdp as a compromise :)
Demand FTTdp and you'll just get FTTN.
Good point
As I've commented in these forums a few times, NBN Co rolling out FTTN in place of FTTB to brownfield MDU's, is partly a way to attempt get ahead of any TPG/Wondercom FTTB or any other FTTB competitors. To lock them out of the opportunity to FTTB up MDU's. And to bypass the worst of the Body Corporate issues with FTTB.
I'm not sure how this locks out Wondercom? NBN put a node in down the street, Wondercom put in a low impact FTTB in the building. I think this continues to be NBN taking the cheapest option at all times, given FTTN deployment cost is closer to $1400/premise and FTTB is closer to $2500/premise
The same will likely happen in the HFC footprint. NBN Co will likely talk up FTTB and FTTdp to brownfield MDU's, but then probably quietly and more quickly rollout FTTN to Brownfields wherever possible.
IIRC they already indicated this would be the plan in the last Senate hearing
On another topic, Labor actually polled higher than Liberals in Newspoll for 1st time with Turnbull. I'd expect even more noise on NBN.
I'm not sure how this locks out Wondercom? NBN put a node in down the street, Wondercom put in a low impact FTTB in the building.
Correct. It does not lock Wondercom out.
Just more likely to worsen the Wondercom business case for FTTB'ing up that building, as there will be less demand for FTTB if they already can get FTTN or can get FTTN from a wider range of RSP's, than with Wondercom's FTTB.
With the Body Corporate more likely to not support Wondercom FTTB if there is already FTTN planned/imminent or available.
Do you know off the top of your head at what point in 2013 that the LNP released their "fully costed" broadband policy?
Well here is their original wonderful policy. Not sure of the exact date in 2013 this was released.
Can't we just refer that question to Sonny Bill Williams ..... he was at the LNP launch wasn't he?*
*Well according to TA he was there.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2016/04/04/on-the-node-again/
One NBN contractor says the company has been able to convince all eight home owners in the court to let them in to install the wires for the NBN. Only three of them actually want a service.
�A lot of them are old and don�t have a computer,� he says. But those who don�t want it are aware that it�ll be better for the value of their houses if they have it just in case.
A future demand driven infrastructure rollout.
We�re shown another site where the company has had to introduce a node in order to get more customers onto the cable network. It stands 15 feet tall, attached to a power pole, with a large grey box fixed to the side of the pole.
�Is it supposed to make that buzzing noise?� I ask. That�s the power for it, we�re told. Unfortunately for the retirees living in the house behind the power pole, that dim hum is there permanently. One journalist remarks that, if he lived there, he would likely take an axe to the cable box in the name of a peaceful night�s sleep.
NBN HFC noise and visual pollution from a 5 metre tall HFC node?
�Is it supposed to make that buzzing noise?� I ask. That�s the power for it, we�re told.
Christ, I didn't know about that. A permanent buzz outside my house would drive me nuts. It would seriously impact my sleep and QOL.
Labor will roll out more fibre. Not all fibre, just more fibre, which is tantamount to an admission that the Coalition's technology-agnostic business model is right," Fifield argued.
He can argue all he likes.. Doesn't make it true.
Well Labor's plan was never all fibre, it was 93% with the remaining premises covered by a mix of fixed wireless and Satellite. So one could argue that the ALP always supported a MTM, just one that was a lot less convoluted, more cost effective and future-proof than the LNP version.
Fifield knows full well that it is fiscally irresponsible to be overbuilding the already installed FTTN/FTTB/HFC in the short term, likewise it will be difficult to cancel or change current running contracts. He wants to paint this as the ALP supporting the LNP rollout model?
One has to wonder who Fifield's target audience is here? Most of the public (unfortunately) do not follow the NBN debate. The people that do follow it closely can see through the spin. So who is he preaching to?
Christ, I didn't know about that. A permanent buzz outside my house would drive me nuts. It would seriously impact my sleep and QOL.
If only there'd been another way ..... hang on.
A permanent buzz outside my house would drive me nuts. It would seriously impact my sleep and QOL.
Luckily it's only a trial (HFC Redcliffe QLD).
Hopefully, the trial failed it's noise pollution test.
With the trial areas now scheduled for a replacement FTTP/FTTdp/FTTB whisper quiet service, but with the benefit of faster albeit noisier for some, HFC in the meantime?
Changes to CVC prices.
The company building the �National Broadband Network will give discounts on a controversial usage charge in a move expected to improve the quality of high-speed internet services during peak periods.
The pricing model, to be outlined by NBN Co boss Bill Morrow today, comes after years of anger from internet service providers that the charge was a disincentive to users downloading more as it raises money in line with greater internet traffic.
Under the model, which will be introduced in June, retail service providers will receive a discount on the �connectivity virtual circuit� that is used to reserve bandwidth on the NBN. The model is expected to bring improved service quality at peak periods because it rewards retailers for provisioning more data per user.
As well as the usual anti-fibre propaganda.
Use Google cache for the "other" version.
With the Body Corporate more likely to not support Wondercom FTTB if there is already FTTN planned/imminent or available.
there is actually nothing the Body Corporate can legally do to lock out wondercom, they can instal "low impact telecommunications infrastructure"
They or at least their parent TPG actually won a court case about not having to supply their own power for an install but can "piggy back" off the common property power
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
interesting that it was nbn� that took the court action, not a "body corporate"
Seems to be in the battle between TPG on one side and the nbn� and Malcolm's amended rules on the other the score card reads TPG 2 MTM 0
https://twitter.com/karinake
Someone's still got a chip on their shoulder about getting blasted in a senate hearing
https://delimiter.com.au/20
About bloody time
What make it $15 per mbit instead of $17.5?
Can't believe they are charging for artificial bandwidth? Its a national fibre network with unlimited capacity. The charge should be in the AVC not artificial CVC bandwidth from POIs.
Take this per mb charge away, implement fttdp/fttp and have unlimited plans at different speed tiers � this is what should happen.
If the ALP had a dynamic, charming leader, the election would be a landslide I would imagine.
The Nation is past dynamic and charming. It needs an administrator.
As well as the usual anti-fibre propaganda.
Use Google cache for the "other" version.
oh for the love of (pick your favourite deity)
As the debate over the technology used for the NBN shapes up as an election battleground, Communications Minister Mitch �Fifield insisted that people did not want the �gold-plated� fibre-to-the-premises network that was originally mooted.
�The evidence shows that users do not currently value FTTP to the point where they are actually willing to pay for it,� he said.
no, the reason that a lot of people are not prepared to pay for FOD is that they are being charged already the same price for FTTN as they would have under FTTP, so to go FOD they are actually paying TWICE. Plus those thet will need fibre due to their distance from the node will not be able to pay the prices that nbn� seem to be charging
The quotes estimates given so far are much higher than Malcolm, the then Shadow Comms Minister, said they would be.
He said that they wouldn't be anywhere near as much as $5,000, yet here in Whirlpool we have seen estimates of up to $20,000
About bloody time
and that was the first simple thing that they should have at least investigated and implemented if possible.
But weren't RSPs already getting a "discount" on CVC up to a certain uptake?
Instead, they chose to halt the ship, put it into a floating dry dock and then commenced to structurally alter it whilst full loaded and without any actual plans or drawings
and that was the first simple thing that they should have at least investigated and implemented if possible.
But weren't RSPs already getting a "discount" on CVC up to a certain uptake?
The current prices should be in this document.
https://twitter.com/karinake
Hahah they put DOCSIS full duplex on their slide sheets.
Oh my oh my
The current prices should be in this document.
oh, they were doing it by "credits" not a "discount"
Availability of credit
(b) Subject to section 6.1, for each Billing Period for each CSA NBN Co will give to Customer a
CVC Transitional Pricing Credit where NBN Co supplies a CVC TC-4 to Customer until the
Billing Period in which the number of NBN Serviceable Premises in that CSA first exceeds
30,000 (excluding Premises which are NBN Serviceable by means of the NBN Co Satellite
Network).
guess we see why they are rushing all those FTTN nodes to be alive, as a live node seems to be the designation of serviceable premises, even if no connections can actually be made
Hahah they put DOCSIS full duplex on their slide sheets.
Oh my oh my
Yes, and G.Fast and XG.Fast as a FTTN options. It's a complete new rollout! Not and upgrade.
He said that they wouldn't be anywhere near as much as $5,000,
Actually he didn't say that, its a subtle nuance but he said it wouldn't be $5000. At the time I said "No, it will be much more", something that Malcolm actually never tackled, he only repeated that it wouldn't be $5000 ;)
Yes, and G.Fast and XG.Fast as a FTTN options. It's a complete new rollout! Not and upgrade.
oh those within 20 metres of a node will be happy
oh wait, I guess no one would have a node to socket path of less then 20 metres
Actually he didn't say that, its a subtle nuance but he said it wouldn't be $5000.
from a Delimeter article
'In response, Turnbull stated on Sky News: �Well we haven�t set a rate for it but I can tell you that the typical distance from one of these nodes, the average distance would be around 500 metres. And I can only give you the example from the UK the cost of getting fibre on demand is around �1500 which I think would work out at around $3000. So it is not $5000.�
In a separate post on his website, Turnbull states:
�For a customer living 500 metres from a node, for example, the charge is GBP1500 or about $2,250.�
source:- https://delimiter.com.au/2016
Take this per mb charge away, implement fttdp/fttp and have unlimited plans at different speed tiers � this is what should happen.
Unfortunately fttdp can't deliver the same speed tiers that fttp can, which under the NG-PON2 standard on FTTP; you can deliver "concurrent" 1Gbps, 10Gbps, 40Gbps and 80Gbps services over the same piece of Fibre.
Fttdp can only deliver a "single" UPTO unguaranteed service that is subject to a myriad of issue's that plague the obsolete architecture which of course "will" provide a disparity of service across the network.
Given the cost reductions that continue to be delivered in deploying FTTH networks: there is no compelling reason to continue with obsolete copper based solutions; regardless of advances made in them, which remain 2nd rate solutions that will have to be replaced anyway.
And this, without: the whole of life cost differences being taken into consideration between the two technologies �
FTTdp is nothing but an uncosted, unfunded! ""short term political fix"" simply reflective and inherent within Malcolm's and the LNP's failed policy position over the years � as reflected in his original estimates which embarressingly are and I quote!
a) 6 billion figure in 2010
b) 19 billion in 2011 then in
c) 2013 his election policy promise of $29 billion
d) Turnbull's revised $44 billion in 2014 following his SR review and stunningly
e) we find in 2015 on the day he replaced Abbott the Senate review into the NBN discovered turnbull's MTM was $56 billion
f) And in 2016 we learn that "additional" costs have not been included into the mix with further cost blowouts yet to come!
//
Dead set and Turnbull gobs on about a Royal Commission into the Construction Industry!
Which begs the question if given the polls that Labor should conduct one into Malcolm's MTM!
Rfs dates, how they handle properties that can't get hfc or have both networks etc
Maybe even how they transition customers over?
If any of that wasn't included in the original lengthy negotiations then it's another sign of abject failure on their part.
Rfs dates, how they handle properties that can't get hfc or have both networks etc
Maybe even how they transition customers over?
oh, but that was supposedly all done under the revised deal rubber stamped by the ACCC.
Could this mean more money passed onto Optus and Telstra?
but that was supposedly all done under the revised deal rubber stamped by the ACCC.
So does that compromise ACCC as well...? What was actually negotiated in Turnbull NBN agreement? So transparent we simply don't know...
Could this mean more money passed onto Optus and Telstra?
Not before the election :-)
I will suspect Labor will move already contracted/advanced planned FTTN areas to FTTdp and will move any areas that still are not currently planned/early stages into FTTP.
If you're doing FTTdp, you mayswell go full Fiber IMO.
In regards to these news articles
http://www.crn.com.a
http://www.itwire.com/it
and the CVC discussion in the last few pages:
It is my legal view as RSP Representative that the ACCC engaged in unconscionable conduct towards our company in regards to breaches of a much larger ISP which it favored to nurture to full blossom over the back of million of investors under the merger guidelines.
But lets not run ahead of matters in the next few months, I live strongly by the rule, do it once do it right.
Odd though, how Law applies to one small party and not to another much bigger party in similar circumstances. Or how the Law does not apply to CVC and POIs, just because it is the ACCC's regulatory mess.
If you're doing FTTdp, you mayswell go full Fiber IMO.
If you're doing FTTdP, you can give the customer the choice of full fiber at reasonable cost. NBNCo has historically struggled with Customer Connect costs for FTTP, still floating around ~$1500 so using FTTdP as default option and FTTP as user pays, eg. $500, could be a good compromise.
You could even cut out NBNCo from the customer altogether. Restrict their mission to provisioning Fibre to the driveway, and defining network connection standards. Now we fall back to the classic utility model where customer competition with RSP's is further increased, particularly considering FTTP as an option. (my preferred compromise as this stage).
If you're doing FTTdP, you can give the customer the choice of full fiber at reasonable cost. NBNCo has historically struggled with Customer Connect costs for FTTP, still floating around ~$1500 so using FTTdP as default option and FTTP as user pays, eg. $500, could be a good compromise.
Where I have a problem with this is that FTTdp is really only a cheaper build where the LIC is blocked, even if you ignore the costs shifted to the consumer of requiring a CPE. We really don't want the situation where nbn� are telling customers: "give us $500 or we'll waste $700 of taxpayer's money on you".
I'd suggest a better option would be FTTP by default, but in the case of blocked LICs FTTdp be the default option with the customer given the choices of:
- taking the risk they can pull the fibre through with copper pair (ie they might be left with no service at all)
- making good the LIC at their own expense
- having an FTTdp NTD placed in the pit outside their home.
I agree that Customer Connect is one area of really low hanging fruit where nbn� could really make inroads if they desired. As things stand though it seems they'd rather avoid the problem altogether with nodes :-).
Where I have a problem with this is that FTTdp is really only a cheaper build where the LIC is blocked
According to the leak, FTTdp is still cheaper than FTTP best case, but only by $250 / premise (multiply by a few million though).
I would suggest if there is common agreement on fibre to the driveway with recent efficiency then the LNDN is solved. Now it becomes an ongoing issue on customer connect, which I would also argue to your point that should include efficiency's to FTTP install. This could be driven by NBN, or could be driven by market competition.
name 1 ISP who sells a speed faster then 100/40???
Here in Australia.
Skymesh offer 100/100.
Whilst the bloke who was previously the CTO at NBN who said he would upgrade NBN's FTTH network to 10Gbps in 2016 actually is in Hong Kong where his company provide 10Gbps services for around the $115 mark. (less for the 1Gbsp service)
Same in Singapore with our own Optus providing this!
And I should also mention Altice in Portugal and France where they intend to offer 40Gbps and 80Gbps on their cheaper, faster and more reliable new NG-PON2 networks they are rolling out now!
Should imagine by 2020 they will be running 160Gbps and faster links which pretty much make anything related to the LNP's obsolete copper network simply uncompetitive not only for consumers but the bulk of Australian businesses that are being consigned to the digital abyss Malcolm's disastrous policy provides for!
Cheers
You could even cut out NBNCo from the customer altogether.
problem with that is that RSP "A" signs you up, arranges for teh "pit to premises" connection.
You run your contract with RSP "A" and decide to switch to RSP "B"
Then you get RSP "A" saying "you cannot use the "cable" from the pit to the premises as it is our property, you will need to get RSP "B" to install a new "cable"
don't say it won't happen, in the retail power industry they are switching over to "retailer owned" power meters so switch providers and have to get a new meter
According to the leak, FTTdp is still cheaper than FTTP best case, but only by $250 / premise (multiply by a few million though).
Obviously headline figures provided:- don't necessarily show the truth as provided in the global reality that others are deploying "future proof" FTTH networks as provided in my previous post!
Further the massive cost reductions expected this year with the pricing of the ONT equipment will further make substantive inroads into improving already validated "business cases" for deploying FTTH networks!
Which! � I might point out, that under Turnbull and Co's MTM model, � the LNP and MTM � have "failed" to actually produce Malcolm's promised "business case" to support his fraudulent, massively delayed and over budget obsolete copper noodle network to nowhere!
Cheers
the LNP and MTM � have "failed" to actually produce Malcolm's promised
I'll take things that don't exist for 500 Alex
don't say it won't happen, in the retail power industry they are switching over to "retailer owned" power meters so switch providers and have to get a new meter
I'm not saying it won't happen. I'm also not saying that this is a problem either :)
You could continue to define national standards, ie. use this NTD, this cable etc, but will that allow for cost to be reduced? Will it allow for adequate competition? There have been arguments made that the current NBN FTTP customer connect standard has unnecessarily increased cost overall by providing a NTD to cover all requirements, that maybe only 5% require.
There have been arguments made that the current NBN FTTP customer connect standard has unnecessarily increased cost overall by providing a NTD to cover all requirements, that maybe only 5% require.
Yet the people making those arguments have never been able to explain how much the cost is allegedly increased based on actual real world figures, nor how much the alternative complex arrangement would cost over the life of the project.
One of the main proponents for changing the FTTP NTD has been on the nbn� board for almost two and a half years and the NTD hasn't changed, even though other methods to cut FTTP costs (some wise, some shortsighted) have been implemented in that time...
According to the leak, FTTdp is still cheaper than FTTP best case, but only by $250 / premise (multiply by a few million though).
Are there examples (other countries) of FTTdp being rolled out? It sounds like a good interim replacement for FTTN, but seems like a risk for the ALP to plan to do this if they are not privy to any nbn testing of FTTdp.
It's frustrating how politicized the NBN is. If the LNP changed to do FTTdp instead of FTTN, Labor will drag them over the coals for their backlip, plus the time and money wasted on FTTN. From a purely political point of view, LNP are better off just doing what they are doing and hope enough people buy in to the political spin such that it doesn't become an election issue. This is an absolute mess. I don't know how we get out of this unless Labor put a good policy forward and then win power.
Are there examples (other countries) of FTTdp being rolled out?
Page 12
Page 12
Where is the FTTdp? That looks like a comparison of FTTH around the world?
It's frustrating how politicized the NBN is. If the LNP changed to do FTTdp instead of FTTN, Labor will drag them over the coals for their backlip, plus the time and money wasted on FTTN. From a purely political point of view, LNP are better off just doing what they are doing and hope enough people buy in to the political spin such that it doesn't become an election issue. This is an absolute mess
Agreed. When the NBN was politicised by Abbott/Turnbull and used as a weapon it locked us into a purely political rollout. Turnbull's ego and politics now means he has to pretend FTTN is a solution. It seems Fifield maybe trying to lay the ground work with his "FTTdp uses copper so it shows we are right" vs "FTTdp brings fibre to the household showing FTTN is wrong".
Either way, they should all be sent off on the B Ark.
Where is the FTTdp?
Sorry not sure if that was what you were after -
Costs of deploying FTTdp
with G.fast
Per home connected (with 60 per cent market share):
Urban $2,100 [�1,300], Suburban $3,300 [�2,100], Rural
$5,000 [�3,100]
If that helps?
If that helps?
Thanks for the responses, but what I was really after was an idea if any other countries are using FTTdp and are actively rolling it out. I.e is this a proven technology or a Turnbull style though bubble?
.e is this a proven technology or a Turnbull style though bubble?
Far as I know there's a few trials in the UK going on with FTTdp.
I'm unaware of any retail FTTdp going on at the moment
Far as I know there's a few trials in the UK going on with FTTdp.
I'm unaware of any retail FTTdp going on at the moment
Ok cheers. So it would seem to be a big risk for the ALP to make FTTdp part of their broadband plans in this election cycle, given that it is not a proven technology.
According to the leak, FTTdp is still cheaper than FTTP best case, but only by $250 / premise (multiply by a few million though)
Except in that leaked presentation, the "best case" ($977) including constructing a brownfields PCD where none exited. It probably includes installing the drop as well, but it's not clear to me one way of the other.
The actual best case is for the drop to be built as part of a bulk drop program during construction of the LNDN coiled up into an existing PCD where it exists (ie estates built in the past 10-15 years). Then the customer connect is (allegedly) $320.
It seems to me the main cost benefit of FTTdp is it avoids needing to replace unusable LICs, and I see a lot of sense in applying this in these cases. But for the vast majority of premises the LIC is fine, and FTTdp adds rather than lowers costs here. I think it's probably a better solution than bulk drop LIC replacement and en-mass PCD construction.
Costs of deploying FTTdp
with G.fast
Per home connected (with 60 per cent market share):
Urban $2,100 [�1,300], Suburban $3,300 [�2,100], Rural
$5,000 [�3,100]
If that helps?
Actually it doesn't help the drivel and diatribe we see trotted out by turnbull and co at all!
Given the testimony provided at the Senate Inquiry into the NBN where in the volcanically unstable and challenging topography provided in New Zealand where they are currently deploying FTTH at a cost of $1600 per premise passed!
And this without further cost reductions being available through the use of "Skinny Fibre" not to mention the further cost reductions available on NG-PON2 architecture and of course:- the soon to be released substantive cost reductions with respect to the ONT equipment!
Unsurprisingly the very model that turnbull based his fraudulent MTM on here now see's its revenue base being ripped asunder in the UK by FTTH operators, who will be using the existing dark fibre network on which to provision reliable internet services on instead of obsolete flaky problem prone expensive 20th century copper solutions!
And this highlights that not only are the Taxpayers forking out for not one "national communications network" but several in which overlap will simply be part of the course!
And to think here back in OZ � that Malcolm stated that we couldn't afford Labor's National FTTH network! where the reality is today, under his Maladministration of the NBN! � We find duplication of services, costs blown to buggery, endless delays and a whole lot of waffle about what obsolete copper may deliver in the future!
Whilst no FTTNnnn mention that well over 50 percent of what their plans for MTM today, are "UNFUNDED" let alone the drivel they drone about what will be provisioned in the future!
http://www.computerworld.com
FTTN should be stopped �as soon as possible� without slowing down the rollout, Clare said, and NBN should roll out FTTdp �or even better fibre to the premises�.
FTTdP, if done properly, should be the minimum go to technology.
the team is on it
I think Paul has made a mistake though,
he is joining together skinny fibre and FTTdp.
I can install FTTdp on "thick fibre" (for want of a term to differentialte it from skinny fibre)
or I can install FTTP on skinny fibre
skinny fibre and FTTdp do not necessarily have to be deployed as "one unit" as it were
Its a shame that organisation didn't adopt a sensible position back in 2013.
Yes, where was all thees big guns when all this FTTN shit started to be set up, should have been nipped in the bud.
Probably to busy down the pub.
There have been arguments made that the current NBN FTTP customer connect standard has unnecessarily increased cost overall by providing a NTD to cover all requirements
Realistically, the NTD is a good thing, and it is something that NBNCo should be using for the FTTN too. Having a standard NTD in all premises means that NBNCo can do proper fault checking, etc...
It also gets around the annoying issue of having to have the correct modem for FTTN, it would then just mean that all people would ever have to worry about is what router to buy, long gone would the modems be.
wow. copped a hiding from news corpse.... not that its unwarranted as we know here. lets hope this continues all the way right up to the election and we can get back to FTTP
http://www.computerworld.co
FTTN should be stopped �as soon as possible� without slowing down the rollout, Clare said, and NBN should roll out FTTdp �or even better fibre to the premises�.
FTTdP, if done properly, should be the minimum go to technology.
I really hope that if the ALP do go down the road of embracing FTTdp, they don't forget it's most attractive feature: FoD. Give people the option when it is rolling out to pay a fee to get to FTTP.
wow. copped a hiding from news corpse.... not that its unwarranted as we know here. lets hope this continues all the way right up to the election and we can get back to FTTP
Another key veteran News Ltd journalist sending a warning shot across the bow following earlier ones. Turnbull cannot take News Ltd support for granted, and if they switch sides they will really attack his NBN policy. Can anyone imagine The Australian editorial campaigning on Labor's NBN policy lol.
Can anyone imagine The Australian editorial campaigning on Labor's NBN policy lol.
No. Limited News is on Abbott's side, not on the side of the NBN.
If anything their side of the Liberal Party is even less friendly to the NBN, of any kind.
No. Limited News is on Abbott's side, not on the side of the NBN.
While News Ltd will traditionally lean conservative, they will always look to back the winner. By picking the winner it allows their boss and organization to claim a status as kingmakers. If they think Turnbull will lose, they will rip him and the NBN to shreds and talk up Shorten/FTTP. Which will be hysterical to watch.
Don't forget they backed Rudd and the original NBN in 2007.
If anything their side of the Liberal Party is even less friendly to the NBN, of any kind.
It does seem more of a move against Turnbull in favour of Abbott which is in their typically hypocritical fashion. They'll attack Turnbull over the NBN and once Abbott or at least Morrison is the leader they'll change the narrative to one of "stopping the boats" or being "tough on terrorism" and the NBN will again be forgotten.
Don't confuse their use of the NBN as anything more than a political move that will evaporate at the first opportunity, don't even consider support for the ALP in the equation.
Someone's still got a chip on their shoulder about getting blasted in a senate hearing
And such a biased partisan attitude ..... so inappropriate for a public servant.
Sorry for the rubbish link with the "answer a question to enter" kind of web page.
I shall copy the important bits
Paul Walsh (37) from Rhue, Tubbercurry, County Sligo, was working on a telecommunications broadband installation project when he suffered a fatal head injury
He was working in the town of Katoomba in the Blue Mountains region when he became the victim of "an industrial accident," said police.</p><br><br>His death shocked and saddened the Irish community in Sydney and preparations were put in place to return his remains to Ireland.
He was working for a contractor on one of Australia's biggest projects � the national broadband network roll-out.</p><br><br>The accident happened on Friday last in a popular tourist area.
One of Paul's friends in Australia, Louise Lane, told the Herald that family and friends were waiting for the remains to be released by the authorities so that he can make his final journey home for burial in County Sligo
Rest in peace
According to the leak, FTTdp is still cheaper than FTTP best case, but only by $250 / premise (multiply by a few million though).
Including Opex forecast out then NPV'ed over 50 years?
Give people the option when it is rolling out to pay a fee to get to FTTP
That's okay to a degree, but the advantage of FTTP was that rental properties [of which there are many in Australia] could be connected without the landlord having to pay for it.
That was just as well as most landlords are looking for maximum profits with minimum expenditure. Few landlords will pay for FOD, and most tenants will be unwilling to pay for what they can't take with them.
It can also be said that many home owners struggle as it is without having to stump up front some money for FOD; it was much better when the cost of FTTP was calculated into the usage fees of NBN users through their RSPs.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
It can also be said that many home owners struggle as it is without having to stump up front some money for FOD; it was much better when the cost of FTTP was calculated into the usage fees of NBN users through their RSPs.
We pay some of the highest prices for internet in the world and still have crappy broadband.
Why would we force people to pay for an FTTP upgrade instead of crappy FTTN, FTTB, FTTDP or HFC?
And good luck getting people in remote areas, low income people with medical issues on pensions to pay for the extension. That might need FTTP for medical purposes.
And why shouldn't people in apartments get FTTP when they are the ones paying to cross-subsidize everyone else and would get free upgrades to FTTP in other plaaces such as Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, Japan, Scandinavia if not before they are now implement free upgrades to these people.
Good luck convincing moment body corporate committee's why they should upgrade to FTTP until the very last moment.
The prices of NBN FTTP plans by isps are justified due to it's subsidization of regional areas.
It seems the ALP version of the NBN up to 2021 for FTTP is justified.
What I'd like to see is a decision to also scrap the satellite component completely. It was always lousy, pointless and it would have been better for their to be fixed wireless deployed to these people.
As well as a long-term plan for full FTTP to these people. Although if it was up to me I would go all the way on-budget.
The perpetual debt and deficit disaster is a myth and is a cancer on our economy.
By running a surplus you are taking money out of our economy.
Also these technologies can't compete that well against 160 gbps FTTP so the point that this is a good idea is moot.
Much better to back productive investments that grow our gdp such as investing in full-FTTP for everyone.
What next we will have to pay out of pocket to have roads for local roads to be surfaced like it's a poor african country where the government can't afford to surface it's roads?
And that at the end of the day is how I see Fibre On Demand something that only a developing country would consider.
And that at the end of the day is how I see Fibre On Demand something that only a developing country would consider.
At the end of the day Fibre on Demand is something that only a moron who subscribes to turnbull and Co's fairy tale known in the vernacular as FRAUDBAND or alternatively MTM (Malcolm Turnbull's Mess) along with the rest of the LNP who are complicit in his intentional deceit of a policy provided as an alternative to Labor's FTTH network.
And I might also mention that "NO" other developing country on this planet or in the known Universe has embarked or is intending to buy obsolete copper networks on which to deliver equally obsolete internet services across the now redundant architecture.
Not that FoD has been a stunning success anywhere on this planet, � nor will be: in our or anyone else's lifetime mind you!
Cheers
Someone's still got a chip on their shoulder about getting blasted in a senate hearing
Telstra Wholesale?
I'd suggest a better option would be FTTP by default, but in the case of blocked LICs FTTdp be the default option with the customer given the choices of:
From NBN Co's own leaked documents, blocked LIC are only 10% of premises. Why complicate the build and add complexity to the management etc by adding an extra access technology?
According to the leak, FTTdp is still cheaper than FTTP best case, but only by $250 / premise (multiply by a few million though).
This is an interesting point, that is CPP to date for FTTP compared to CPP estimated at completion for FTTN isn't it?
I ask that because it is becoming clear NBN Co have a bunch of charges that are soon to be charged for connections.
Things like "subsequent install" and "new development" charges. These could significantly reduce the FTTN CPP EAC figure. Maybe even account for the full $250 difference.
(If you are asking yourself do I think the current NBN Co management would get down and dirty in the political shit fight, the answer, sadly, is YES!)
I think Paul has made a mistake though,
he is joining together skinny fibre and FTTdp.
I can install FTTdp on "thick fibre" (for want of a term to differentialte it from skinny fibre)
or I can install FTTP on skinny fibre
This is an important point that some people are overlooking.
"Skinny Fibre" is really a dumbing down and consequent reduction in long term utility and flexibility of the LDN.
It isn't simply a cheaper network architecture, it is a cheaper and less capable network. We need to be mindful of the future cost of the reduced capability.
http://www.businessspectator
NBN Co�s announcement that it will reduce the Connectivity Virtual Circuit (CVC) charge from June, using a new discount model, will be welcomed by consumers as retail service providers (RSP) move to lower their monthly plan charges and offer more data.
Another good article from Mark.
While consumers will welcome a reduction in their monthly broadband bills it�s only a matter of time until they realise that with an all fibre NBN to 93 per cent of Australian homes, data usage would increase faster and this would mean that NBN Co could continue to reduce the CVC charge.
And there's the truth, the current MTM approach has "held up" costs for end users. Thereby costing them more.
It seems the ALP version of the NBN up to 2021 for FTTP is justified.
You have a lot more confidence than me that this will be the ALP's policy in this election campaign. Some of the recent comments from Jason Claire seem to be paving the way for FTTdp for at least some of the network, maybe even most of the network. I hope I am wrong, the end game is FTTP, so lets do it now.
Some of the recent comments from Jason Claire seem to be paving the way for FTTdp for at least some of the network
Labor will be where the LCP was in 2013 � stuck with something that they couldn't udo � namesly completedee installs and contracts signed.
What is outside of those will be FTTP as first choice.
What is outside of those will be FTTP as first choice.
Maybe they can fix the technology choice program, fttn is availible where I live, but as I predicted it hasn't fixed anything. I'm not on it, but my line has been flogged, 2 streets over a friend is "on it" but is still connected via adsl to the exchange (so clearly wrong line) next door is on it but gets 10 mbit
Maybe they can fix the technology choice program, fttn is availible where I live, but as I predicted it hasn't fixed anything.
I would guess Labor would be running fibre through the streets. Those stuck with FTTN cabinets in their area would get FTTdP and perhaps the larger MDU's as well, everyone else gets FTTP. The better ROI should be able to fund those now with FTTdP to finally get upgraded to FTTP.
It's not ideal for those on FTTN but it's going to cost time and money to cut out the newly laid copper cancer.
It's not ideal for those on FTTN but it's going to cost time and money to cut out the newly laid copper cancer.
It's not ideal, but that's part of the price we pay for electing the current Government.
Another good article from Mark.
Im not sure what Mark is on about here, he talks like NBN charge per mb of data transfer, but in actual fact the cvc is for speed size in mb.
Reducing the cvc charges simply gives rsp's more room to organise their customers to be less congested, i highly doubt lowering cvc (unless its lower by �) will result in any reduction in plan costs or increase in data allowance, well in the short term anyways.
Those stuck with FTTN cabinets in their area would get FTTdP and perhaps the larger MDU's as well, everyone else gets FTTP.
Why should users consigned to FTTN be offered and equally prejudicial technology option? If anything, FTTN areas need to be second priority (after ADSL/nothing), ahead of HFC.
Those who have I voted liberal badges get FTTN with no FTTdp
While all others get FTTP
That sounds fair :)
the "best case" ($977) including constructing a brownfields PCD where none exited. It probably includes installing the drop as well,
Installation of the PCD is the 'drop' part of the Customer Connect process. The other part is installation of the NTD.
The actual best case is for the drop to be built as part of a
Actually if you think about it the best case (lowest cost) must be for a 'demand drop' install of PCD via existing usable LiC, then NTD connection, in a single truck roll.
The reason this is not the preferred method is the problem with ~1 in 4 LiCs being blocked or non-existent. This often means delays as the initial contractor is generally not prepared for the blocked LiC, resulting in a wasted truck roll, and the need to reschedule with potentially a different contractor to build the new LiC.
It seems to me the main cost benefit of FTTdp is it avoids needing to replace unusable LICs
I would say the main cost benefit of FttDP (in the FttN footprint) is it avoids the potential 'regret capital' of FttN due to the fact that the LNDN is fully compatible with FttP from the outset, while ensuring (for the most part) that the lowest possible maximum speed is is likely to be over 100Mbps regardless of the technology used for the Customer Connect.
But for the vast majority of premises the LIC is fine,
According to the public statements of nbn it is ~1 in 4 as mentioned above. See here whrl.pl/RezO2f
I think it's probably a better solution than bulk drop LIC replacement and en-mass PCD construction.
A potential compromise solution would be to switch FttN to FttDP with an opt-in FoD option during the construction phase at a nominal charge (the differential between the FttDP and FttP cost). FoD after would still be available but would include the LiC build cost if required.
Those who have I voted liberal badges get FTTN with no FTTdp
While all others get FTTP
That sounds fair :)
Even in solid liberal areas there will be plenty of non LNP voters, so not really.
Also to be fair, voters have been badly let down and misinformed by the media, so they weren't making informed decisions.
1 in 4 LiCs being blocked or non-existent.
According to the public statements of nbn it is ~1 in 4 as mentioned above. See here whrl.pl/RezO2f
I do not accept the validity of public statements from NBN�. Based on NBN�'s track record it could be 10%.
According to the public statements of nbn it is ~1 in 4 as mentioned above. See here whrl.pl/RezO2f
I believe that this number may have been inflated by locations that had a mixture of aerial and underground "lead ins"
In a friends street the copper is distributed underground but some houses are connected aerially and others are connected underground.
When the FTTP lead ins were done all those that had an overhead connection had a underground conduit installed and the fibre was run in that way.
Locations like this could inflate the "blocked LIC" numbers
And even now nbn� systems in a fully aerial location call "no aerial connection" a "blocked LIC", which again could inflate the blocked LIC numbers
LIC seems to be either "blocked conduit" or "blocked connection" where the term "blocked" may just mean not pulled in or installed and thus the final install is "blocked" not the actual street to premises connection being physically blocked
The actual best case is for the drop to be built as part of a
Actually if you think about it the best case (lowest cost) must be for a 'demand drop' install of PCD via existing usable LiC, then NTD connection, in a single truck roll.
The PCD has two roles:
- to allow the network boundary to be outside the locked up part of customer's premises so it can be accessed anytime by the network provider. Completely irrelevant in nbn�'s case, at lease for now.
- to allow installation of the NTD � which requires access to the inside of the premises � to occur at a different time to the construction of the new LIC.
In an nbn� context the role of the PCD is to allow the deployment of bulk drops at nbn�'s convenience rather than when the customer is scheduled to be home.
nbn�'s experience suggests that building the PCD for everyone and new LICs as required as part of a bulk drop program is cheaper overall than demand drop. My point is the PCD step is redundant for 75%-90% of premises, but we just don't know which ones.
The reason this is not the preferred method is the problem with ~1 in 4 LiCs being blocked or non-existent. This often means delays as the initial contractor is generally not prepared for the blocked LiC, resulting in a wasted truck roll, and the need to reschedule with potentially a different contractor to build the new LiC.
I see FTTdp as a potential solution for this:
We revert to demand drop.
Customer connect is install the NTD and pull the drop back to the NAP � but using the existing LIC.
If the LIC is unusable they install a hardened reverse powered NTD in the pit
or give the customer the option of make good the LIC at their own expense
or give the customer the option of attempting pulling through the fibre drop with the copper lead in risking the customer being left with no service at all.
Also to be fair, voters have been badly let down and misinformed by the media, so they weren't making informed decisions.
Indeed, The credibility of the media is bottom of the barrel. Politicians and media both BS and people fall for it all the time.
["The PCD has two roles:
- to allow the network boundary to be outside the locked up part of customer's premises so it can be accessed anytime by the network provider. Completely irrelevant in nbn�'s case, at lease for now.
actually the network boundary is at the "ethernet ports" on the NTD
- to allow installation of the NTD � which requires access to the inside of the premises � to occur at a different time to the construction of the new LIC."]
The PCD is a connection point between the "internal" and "external" sections of the lead-in.
A large number of the PCDs that were installed in 2GOS-07 had the fibre, with no "connector socket", wrapped around the PCD not even installed into the PCD.
Taking the fibre into the PCD AND installing the "connection socket" was only done when the NTD was installed inside.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
It can also be said that many home owners struggle as it is without having to stump up front some money for FOD; it was much better when the cost of FTTP was calculated into the usage fees of NBN users through their RSPs.
Dear nbn
Yes, can I change my FTTN to FTTP?
I am willing to pay an additonal $2/month for the next 10 yrs to pay for this.
Of course as your operational costs are reduced by far more than this, I do expect a reduction in the service charge overall.
As there will not be a need to upgrade my service multiple times in the near future, please let me know how your reduced costs will benefit me further, such as offering additional services or reduction in CVC charges.
Thank you for your concideration.
Yes, can I change my FTTN to FTTP?
Dear user, why would you need those speeds?
Are you a pirate? A torrent seeder?
The FBI will be paying you a visit shortly
Regards,
NBN PR.
If you're doing FTTdp, you mayswell go full Fiber IMO.
Totally agree. Apart from a 'technology' imperative there is now a greater political imperative. Saving a few pennies now will cost lots later and a suspicion among taxpayers they will pay for the last few metres. Complete certainty is essential.
NBNCo has historically struggled with Customer Connect costs for FTTP, still floating around ~$1500
This costing amazes me...I have watched the process and I can't see where it can possibly cost $1500, particularly when Telstra charges $299, I believe, to install leadins. The hardware for FTTP on/in premises does not cost that much nor does fibre. Pile a huge amount of admin and design fees, high average length etc maybe reasons but these can't be realistic, surely.
Dear user, why would you need those speeds?
Are you a pirate? A torrent seeder?
The FBI will be paying you a visit shortly
Regards,
NBN PR.
Dear NBN PR
I just want to stream Twitch. I also like the Cloud. Please don't visit me. Don't waste your time. You won't find any pirate flags under my bed or any torrent garden mulch.
Best Regards
Sard as clean and pure as wonder soap.
but in the case of blocked LICs FTTdp be the default option with the customer given the choices of:
Why should it become the customers problem?...and/or cost.
The most efficient way to do it is up front as part of the project...piece meal is so much more expensive and cost recovery is via normal life of project/service methods � do it right the first time....it's done, it will work properly for every customer in the same manner, it is cost transparent to consumers and the most cost efficient and build efficient way to do it.
Latest ABS stats are up for internet activity.
If the LNP changed to do FTTdp instead of FTTN, Labor will drag them over the coals for their backlip, plus the time and money wasted on FTTN
Quite a target eh?...pre election....
I'd suggest likewise if labor take it up as well � backdown and acceptance that their original FTTP Plan was wrong...even though not supported of course by the rest of the world now implementing FTTP....
Only way to go is commit to full FTTP � oddly LNP would get a huge vote boost if they wrangled their way to that position pre election I'd suggest...
Where is the FTTdp? That looks like a comparison of FTTH around the world?
That link in Sect 4 show Australia FTTH 2013 Strategic Review figure of $38.2B...?? Wonder if the authors have put out a disclaimer since that SR data can't be relied on...?
Only way to go is commit to full FTTP � oddly LNP would get a huge vote boost if they wrangled their way to that position pre election I'd suggest...
I will eat your and my hat if that was to happen.
FTTdP in some areas, hfc replaced by fttn where applicable and more cost and time blow outs for the LNP.
I'm not sure what the ALP will announce � either FTTN replaced with FTTdp/fttp and either upgrade hfc to docsis 3.1 or fttdp/fttp or their original plan.
They should point out the superior roi, the fact that the rollout timeframe is similar (or a little better) and how the LNP version never pays for itself.
We are still waiting on the fully costed LNP plan though!
Only way to go is commit to full FTTP � oddly LNP would get a huge vote boost if they wrangled their way to that position pre election I'd suggest...
Too late for that now unfortunately as FTTN areas such as mine are either half way through construction or are approaching RFS status. :(
What I like to know is the long term plan (if any) for those of us left stranded on this copper rubbish.
Can anyone imagine The Australian editorial campaigning on Labor's NBN policy lo
A cynic might suggest Murdoch is 'offering his services' to Labor atm now that Turnbull has not completely done the deal, nor passed legislative changes before DD election, on media ownership and killed sport on free to air TV.
This makes NBN policy a greater priority for each party...
Too late for that now unfortunately as FTTN areas such as mine are either half way through construction or are approaching RFS status. :(
What I like to know is the long term plan (if any) for those of us left stranded on this copper rubbish.
My best guess is that those areas that are FTTN will go to the back of the line for the full FTTP upgrade and will be upgrade to FTTP last. At nearly every point in this debate almost all sides have said FTTP should be then end goal eventually. I believe their are even some LNP quotes around to this extent from very early in the NBN debate.
We are still waiting on the fully costed LNP plan though!
The whole point of Labor's plan was as much as possible to remove the question over internet access for the majority of the country.
When I was looking at buying my current house one of the important factors was Internet Access and I did as much research as possible at the time. I was told there was ADSL2+, Ports free at the exchange etc etc.
At the first moment possible I signed up to find there were no ports left for ADSL2+ and I had to even wait for ADSL1, which when finally connected only syncs at 2mbit. As you can imagine, not impressed.
The MTM nonsense doesn't resolve these types of issues and instead brings in another level of complexity when trying to get connected.
As a user you'll need to pay for access at roughly the same costs no matter the tech used. The digital divide remains and is now entrenched for even more decades to come thanks to the Liberal Party.
While News Ltd will traditionally lean conservative, they will always look to back the winner. By picking the winner it allows their boss and organization to claim a status as kingmakers.
History shows News Ltd announce the winner a day or two before the election....a key to influence undecided voters as well?
EDIT: � one wonders if NBN will rank highly enough and be part of that editorial ... factually
The internet is like a series of toobes
I believe their are even some LNP quotes around to this extent from very early in the NBN debate.
I doubt it but am happy to be proved wrong. It would have been foolish to suggest even for a second that their plan would need "upgrading" to FTTP unless they factored that into their costs and rollout times, which they did not.
The best they did was claim everyone would have up to 24mbit by 2016 and up to 50-100mbit by 2019 under their MTM plan, especially early on. There was no mention of FTTP other than those 7% already on it at the time and up to 20% that was too late to cancel.
But of those speeds, the "up to" has to be used as copper is involved. But as we've seen, they're light years away from their targets both in cost and installation.
Their mistake purely to wedge Labor is unforgivable. They sold us all out for what? As the years go by and more and more people become tech savy by default and learn the truth, or worse, travel overseas and experience what broadband actually is (I remember a not to distant past where 128kbps and 256kbps was being called broadband not narrowband) I hope the Liberal and National Parties Chickens will come home to roost and they'll experience some rare accountability for once.
Also these technologies can't compete that well against 160 gbps FTTP so the point that this is a good idea is moot.
Much better to back productive investments that grow our gdp such as investing in full-FTTP for everyone.
What next we will have to pay out of pocket to have roads for local roads to be surfaced
Welcome to this NBN thread.... you have made a number of pertinent points.....
The recent disaster by Turnbull on State's raising taxes for "their", ie State's, schools is a clear indication of the ideological direction of current conservative politics in this country, the globe in fact. It was either 2010 or 2013 pre election a prominent UK Conservatives advisor was on ABC current affairs interviews sprouting this very philosophy � devolving everything down the line � someone else's problem....
With that in mind we can be assured user pays up front would be the reality for any iteration of NBN.
From NBN Co's own leaked documents, blocked LIC are only 10% of premises. Why complicate the build and add complexity to the management etc by adding an extra access technology?
By my quick calc's that is no more than ~$250M saving � if you believe the $250 to be correct in the first instance and on top of that the relevant point you made re additional costs planned by NBN. In the overall scheme of things that is marginally significant over the life of the budget � contingencies, process improvements savings etc etc
The internet is like a series of toobes
I like this misprint near the end of the article :
"According to Prysmian, the new technology is expected to become the stranded optical cable of choice in the Australian telecom industry within the next three years."
Latest ABS stats are up for internet activity.
Wireless now down to 2.5% of total traffic.
From NBN Co's own leaked documents, blocked LIC are only 10% of premises.
This is contradicted by evidence given at the recent senate hearing. I looked at some of the apparent inconsistencies of the leaked FttDP doc here � whrl.pl/RezO2f
Why complicate the build and add complexity to the management etc by adding an extra access technology?
That horse has bolted. The build is already more complex and cant be simplified any time soon. FttDP doesnt really add a different access technology. It is still VDSL, just over shorter copper than FttN
"Skinny Fibre" is really a dumbing down and consequent reduction in long term utility and flexibility of the LDN.
I understand your point, however 'skinny fibre' in and of itself isn't the whole issue here, is it? Rather it is the change to the network topology which resulted in loss of redundant paths etc. Or is this change required because the FDH function has been split and dispersed deeper into the network?
If that is the case then provided the underlying GPON infrastructure is capable of supporting the newer iterations of 10-PON and NG-PON (as it should be) the decision comes down to the whether the loss of potential longer term benefits is justifiable by the lower cost.
Latest ABS stats are up for internet activity.
Anyone got Vertigan's email address....? How close is the ABS data to his projections again....?
Reducing the cvc charges simply gives rsp's more room to organise their customers to be less congested, i highly doubt lowering cvc (unless its lower by �) will result in any reduction in plan costs or increase in data allowance, well in the short term anyways.
I agree. Mark suggestion that RSPs will reduce prices is completely missing the point of the issue which the CVC pricing is causing � peak time contention.
This issue is not so much the customer not wanting to pay the agreed price, rather it is the customer being unhappy that they are not getting what they agreed to pay for.
The total volume of data downloaded in the three months ended 31 December 2015 was 1.71 million Terabytes (or 1.7 Exabytes). This is a 23.5% increase in data downloads when compared with the three months ended 30 June 2015.
Data downloaded via fixed line broadband (1.67 million Terabytes) accounted for 98% of all internet downloads in the three months ended 31 December 2015.
From December 2014 to December 2015, the volume of data downloaded by fixed line broadband showed a 50.4% increase.
The volume of downloads in the graph is on a steep upward projectory. Funny about that
This should be interesting to see if copper and 24mbit speed used in this fabulous MTM can keep up with the ever increasing demand. Yeah no wants faster internet !!!
Their mistake purely to wedge Labor is unforgivable.
Which has now meant they are wedged � oh how delicious.
If they do change, the ALP can highlight the backflip.
If they don't, the ALP has several options for a better NBN � even if it is only fttdp.
I agree. Mark suggestion that RSPs will reduce prices is completely missing the point of the issue which the CVC pricing is causing � peak time contention.
It can be a lot more complicated than simply increasing CVC bandwidth, for the majority of RSPs are resellers. There's only a few of the larger RSPs that can afford to have connectivity to all the NBN POIs, so most RSPs are 'resellers of resellers'... and have no visibility, or say, over the CVC bandwidth.
And the assumption from Mark that RSPs will reduce prices over increasing CVC bandwidth, or increasing shareholder returns, shows a lack of understanding of any of the RSPs' motives. NBN is a drain on any of the tier 1 ISPs, increasing their cost per customer and reducing their bottom lines significantly. And they're all learning how they can increase profits from the new type of customer they're being forced to service.
A reduction in CVC cost will be, in order of preference for an RSP, 1) and increase in shareholder value, 2) a reduction in costs per customer, 3) a minimisation of the cost of capacity planning.... etc... etc... etc... and around number 18) a reduction in cost to the end user.
We are still waiting on the fully costed LNP plan though!
So true....it 'evolves" doesn't it?
Clearly a commitment to full FTTP is Labor's priority but that has to be in the context that contracts let etc need to be recognised, renegotiated, redesigned etc
Logistics for parallel FTTN completion and restart of FTTP from a resources point of view will be a challenge.
Design for FTTP must be available and fairly quick decisions could be viable. Startups for POIs and FSAMs will take up some time before street activity for remediation can take off. I'd like to think the learnings of early FTTP would see again some of this in parallel.
IMO the fact FSAMs were built prevented FTTP being halted and contracts having to be completed. I don't believe FTTN has the same level of inevitable need for completion and suppliers etc would be less 'harmed' by change of Technology. FTTN existing design plans for a number of nodes surely (at risk of being a simplistic approach) can be rejigged to build FSAMs at significant cost benefit justifying FTTP in lieu of FTTN not commenced. That would minimise any FTTdp to that which may be required for FTTN already started, if the cost of that can be justified.
What I like to know is the long term plan (if any) for those of us left stranded on this copper rubbish.
That is really my position that FTTP is overall plan recognising existing limitations with current FTTN.
I'd like to see some discussion on what would be required, in simple broad terms, to overbuild FTTN with FTTP...ie FTTP POI/FSAMs in place of FTTN Nodes and how the FTTP architecture can be overlaid efficiently.
One lives in hope that FTTN was overlaid on FTTP designs for future 'upgrade'..if they were smart enough to do so and not totally motivated by sabotage....
The internet is like a series of toobes
Competition for Corning...?
Clearly a commitment to full FTTP is Labor's priority
Until the labor party come out and commit to this prior to the upcoming federal election I wouldn't be making that assumption at all. As with all opposition parties, unless some policy will see them increase their standing in the polls the status quo will prevail. The full redesign (reversion of design) will cost billions, so if they can get away with not having to make a commitment... it won't be mentioned.
That horse has bolted. The build is already more complex and cant be simplified any time soon. FttDP doesnt really add a different access technology. It is still VDSL, just over shorter copper than FttN
This is a good point. I think we need to come to terms with the fact that the ALP are probably not going to be able to fix this mess and go back to 93% fibre in the short to medium term. It is likely that Labor's broadband policy (whatever it will be) will disappoint a lot of people. Comments in recent days from Mitch Fifield have laid the platform for them to try to shift some of the anger to the ALP. He will be pushing people towards the conclusion that the ALP has embraced the Coalition's MTM policy (just with a bit of minor tinkering).
Until the labor party come out and commit to this prior to the upcoming federal election I wouldn't be making that assumption at all.
Jason Clare has said as much that FTTP is the priority. His lack of 'full on commitment' is part of the political games pre election. If they don't, then they don't deserve a vote.... it would be absolute stupidity. I do note the increasing reference to NBN by Shorten (this morning again) as a priority.
If voting Labor gets the NBN gimps removed from the board and PR department.. Worth it!
But yes, FTTP would be nice.. But who knows how fked the system is to revert it back from FTTN to FTTP *shrugs*
I wouldn't be making any commitments either until I saw the mess.
so if they can get away with not having to make a commitment... it won't be mentioned.
It is already being mentioned though. I heard Bill Shorten mention "better NBN" as a goal in one of his speeches the other day. The LNP tried the tactic in 2010 of opposing the ALP's "white elephant" NBN, without coming up with a coherent policy of their own, and it is one of the reasons they lost the election (from their own analysis). I don't think the ALP will be making that mistake this election,
Wireless now down to 2.5% of total traffic.
That is wireless only, mobile data has hit 5.2%, but is reported on another page.
The policy the lnp came up with is to polish a turd of rejection policy of nbn mk1 which was tabled within the 1st term of Howard's 1st term as prime minister...
which was a dead police to begin with because the overall cost of its physical deployment..
and historically the lnp has done nothing with the comms portfolio until Malcolm came to be comms minister, he also has vested ans invested interests to see something fail through personal and political affiliations..
I heard Bill Shorten mention "better NBN" as a goal
That's not a commitment though...
Jason Clare has said as much that FTTP is the priority.
And neither is this...
If NBN is to become an election issue they need to be concise in their plan... or it's just another empty election ploy. Will the masses care? Don't the masses still believe the bullshit from the LNP last election? Think 'stop the boats' actually meant 'stop telling the public about the boats'.
If NBN is to become an election issue they need to be concise in their plan...
Agreed, but we are not even officially in an election campaign yet, they have time.
If NBN is to become an election issue they need to be concise in their plan... or it's just another empty election ploy. Will the masses care? Don't the masses still believe the bullshit from the LNP last election? Think 'stop the boats' actually meant 'stop telling the public about the boats'.
I share your sentiments but political games are just that and we are the pawns � a little patience is hopefully all we need....and then hopefully with the will of the general uninformed public's wisdom there will be a change of govt and NBN FTTP can re-emerge..and rightfully so...with a barrage of accountability thrust on perpetrators of the FTTN/MTM farce that has cost this nation dearly
In the end, excusing Labor's lack of policy detail does the fibre cause more harm than good.
As I said above, we do not have an official election date yet. There is something to be said for timing in politics. I wouldn't release details of the policy now if I were the ALP either.
Timelines for delivery of fibre under Labor are questions that FTTP supporters should ask
In light of six months delays for FTTN in less than six months since starting your 'black pot uniform ' stands out glowingly....(I'll help you out Kingy � pot calling kettle black...?). You should be more than reluctant to pop your head up with that old rollout cliche..
excusing Labor's lack of policy detail does the fibre cause more harm than good.
And again where is the LNP policy detail Kingy? ....and what semblance does what ever that may be have with the rolling, tumbling, evolving, thought bubbles of current FTTN/MTM build.. Even Morrow seems to be undermining Turnbull/Fifield...
Timelines for delivery of fibre under Labor are questions that FTTP supporters should ask.
Timelines for delivery of fibre under the Liberals are questions everyone should ask.
Timelines for delivery
...are irrelevant. Of course delivery of FTTP are going to be longer, and initial outlay is going to be more expensive (although honest costings have proven to be better than the bullshit proffered by the liberals during the last election campaign). But it's a network that doesn't need to be built a second (or third) time... unlike the current mess of MTM.
Kingforce something you need to consider that delays happen in any build faze...
Fttn will always be an election and term deployment and be a dead deployment option past 1.5 years because any profits that is made with that, would have to be re-invested.. into the infrastructure to maintain a basic usable speed
Turnbull has said that fibre is the endgame.
Really... then where's his costings, including the interim cost of keeping Murdoch happy and Foxtel profitable ?
This issue is not so much the customer not wanting to pay the agreed price, rather it is the customer being unhappy that they are not getting what they agreed to pay for.
Bringing back WYSIWYG (speed advertised) would be great. Fibre got it right with 2500mbps shared between 20-32 users.
You should be more than reluctant to pop your head up with that old rollout cliche..
So. The Coalition can just say what Labor did when they were in charge. Just say that they are officially on target. Everybody gave Labor a free pass then so what makes you think the voter cares if the Coalition are (potentially) behind now?
-- edit
I should be more clear, the voter does care about delays but whether the Coalition will be punished for it is another story.
Everybody gave Labor a free pass then so what makes you think the voter cares if the Coalition are (potentially) behind now?
Because Labor wasn't running around broadcasting to the electorate how they had a "fully costed ready to go" plan that would be rolled out "faster & cheaper".
Timelines for delivery of fibre under Labor are questions that FTTP supporters should ask.
Meanwhile you should be asking why the Coalition have utterly failed to deliver on their election promise of 25Mbps to all by 2016 � are you doing that? Not asking that question means less of a chance to influence policy. In the end, excusing the Coalition's lack of policy detail does your cause more harm than good.
Really... then where's his costings, including the interim cost of keeping Murdoch happy and Foxtel profitable ?
That would help for Apples for apples comparison eh?
The Labor FTTP direct path and the long winding expensive road of anything else built and replaced to the ultimate point of FTTP....
At the last election the Coalition released their plan in April 2013.
They did no such thing, as you know full well.
starting 2017 intend to connect 300,000 to FTTdp.
That is a lie.
Turnbull has said that fibre is the endgame.
Turnbull also said they'd deliver 25Mbps to all by 2016... remember that?
I believe that this number may have been inflated by locations that had a mixture of aerial and underground "lead ins"
The break down to the senate seems pretty straight forward.
Senator CONROY: If you could confirm that, it would be good. Coming back to some slightly more generic issues for the moment, what is the current aerial-underground mix as a percentage for customer connect on FTTP? What percentage of fibre drops are underground.
...
Mr Rue: I was not quite right. It is 16.6 per cent aerial, and obviously 83.4 underground.
...
Mr Rue: It is 58 per cent existing, 26 per cent new and 16 aerials.
Locations like this could inflate the "blocked LIC" numbers
What matters is how many underground LiCs need to be built. The rest is just semantics.
Turnbull did not invent FTTP though he would quite obviously have like to .
Everything that Labor has said this year is pretty much what the Coalition will do (if they get re-elected) e.g. FTTdp.
Everything that Labor has said this year is pretty much what the Coalition will do (if they get re-elected) e.g. FTTdp.
FUD, glorious FUD.
Everything that Labor has said this year is pretty much what the Coalition will do (if they get re-elected) e.g. FTTdp.
and Even if that was true, the Liberals record with the NBN and Australia is so bad with the choices they have made in the past 3 years, they don't deserve another run at government. Time to let some adults run the country.
Everything that Labor has said this year is pretty much what the Coalition will do (if they get re-elected) e.g. FTTdp.
Official link stating this fact please.
Everything that Labor has said this year is pretty much what the Coalition will do
And this is what scares me the most... not only will we be left with the same NBN bullshit that the LNP have given us, but we'll also be left with the same inhumane policies on immigration and human rights (and global warming, and marriage equality etc.. etc...), and the secretive way they disseminate information to the public, as the rubbish government we have.
Any policy left behind from this current government is a crime.
The Coalition can just say what Labor did when they were in charge.
Already have and been discredited widely for slowing that down to snails pace alienating consumers and industry and academia etc etc � you know � voters....
Just say that they are officially on target.
I presume you mean FTTN. You can't "just say that..." because you know it is false by a long way � data does not back that up and Fifields claims over last six qtrs has next to nothing to do with FTTN � almost all FFTP and those targets were heavily educed by Turnbull to make it easy to say exactly what you are trying to (what a coincidence!!)
The original FTTP targets would have had ~4M services in place now and after Turnbull's interference and stupidity barely half of that (less than?) is what we have � say thank you Kingy and bow gracefully to your master... for such a stuff up.
so what makes you think the voter cares if the Coalition are (potentially) behind now?
So LNP/Turnbull have such disdain for voters they rely on ignorance to claim success? ...and thanks to the NBN Co/Turnbull covert campaign to ensure the voters don't get the right information to start with has a lot to do with that.... They care believe me they care � seen the polls drifting down for LNP � ask yourself why � voters care.....
They did no such thing, as you know full well.
Fair comment on Kingy's diatribe.
We are still waiting for Turnbull's NBN Plan � all we got back then was 'discussion paper' another thought bubble � costly at that like all the rest....
I see FTTdp as a potential solution for this:
I prefer my option. Your proposal transfers all risk to the homeowner, and ignores the potential savings to be had from 'build drop' PCD installation.
That is wireless only, mobile data has hit 5.2%, but is reported on another page.
Good pickup � thanks.
What I like to know is the long term plan (if any) for those of us left stranded on this copper rubbish.
There will be no further improvement for you until the rollout is complete and the rerollout can begin.
What is Labor saying that makes them any different from the government?
The LNP obsolescent FTTN roll-out will stop under ALP Gov... for starters ...
The LNP obsolescent FTTN roll-out will stop under ALP Gov... for starters ...
It probably won't stop immediately, they will probably need to honor existing contracts
But who knows how fked the system is to revert it back from FTTN to FTTP *shrugs*
If nbn are to be believed there is nothing stopping the rollout from changing to include much more fibre, other than the SoE.
It probably won't stop immediately, they will probably need to honor existing contracts
..and anyone stuck with FTTN or fixed wireless will be put to the back of the queue for any upgrades. 20 years on these inferior products isn't outside the realm of possibility... especially if Murdoch lives that long.
Fibre got it right with 2500mbps shared between 20-32 users.
CVC is an issue on FttP as much as any other delivery technology, and users on the highest speed plans are more likely to feel it than others.
..and anyone stuck with FTTN or fixed wireless will be put to the back of the queue for any upgrades. 20 years on these inferior products isn't outside the realm of possibility... especially if Murdoch lives that long
Unfortunately I think your right there. The only way I'll ever get a FTTP service is if I move.
The LNP obsolescent FTTN roll-out will stop under ALP Gov... for starters ...
Until the opposition put this in writing it's not a given. Time and time again we see the opposition just keep existing policy in place, or make minute amendments. Think about the work choices bullshit that labor left in place after little johnny howard decimated the country, and made sure that workers in this country had lost everything the union movement worked for for decades.
The only way I'll ever get a FTTP service is if I move.
It's becoming more and more apparent that if you want true FTTP then this is your only option. Though keep in mind that the properties in this exclusive footprint are actually worth more (real) money nowadays just because of this option.
It probably won't stop immediately, they will probably need to honor existing contracts
Minor distraction.... It's a given that the hurdle will need to be dealt with but it's not insurmountable as Turnbull demonstrated when he called a halt to FTTP. Contractors will negotiate and it will cost a bit but that has to be far less than the cost incurred by continuing on with building a sunk asset.
Unlike now Turnbull had to buy time to try and put some meat on his 'ready to go fully costed plan' which everyone now knows was a nonsense. His 'Plan' in 2013 was in fact one to develop a FTTN Plan. He needed a couple of years otherwise FTTP would ,have been stopped a lot earlier.
Additionally the transition from FTTP to FTTN, IMO, was far more difficult than it would be to go from FTTN to FTTP. For starters FTTP architecture for the whole country was defined and fundamental design also, plus lots of learning in the mean time. Biggest problem would be getting most those that know all about it back together again. I think there would be some volunteers and quite a few inside NBN Co still.
Main point is though that FTTP can almost start immediately somewhere with existing knowledge and no need for ground up development period that Turnbull needed. I'm far more upbeat about it.
Laurie Patton, the CEO of the country�s peak internet body, Internet Australia has repeatedly called on the government to abandon the approach and revert back to the Labor favoured fibre to the premises model (FTTP) which provides far greater capacity.
However Mr Cross insists the current NBN rollout will be �sufficient� to allow Aussie homes to do what they want to do today.
�We know that behaviours will change, and we can move with those in time,� he said.
NBN, building tomorrow's network for yesterdays demand, and then we'll just move with the times.. with an open wallet
Everything that Labor has said this year is pretty much what the Coalition will do
Are you sure � we're discussing the fact that the coalition doesn't even do what the *coalition* says it will do. Further bear in mind that what all those disagreeing with you predicted did come to pass, whereas if we look at your little claim regarding "April 2013" above, you're having trouble getting what has already happened right.
It may pay to stop reading the central office FUD sheets, and checking outside...
NBN, building tomorrow's network for yesterdays demand, and then we'll just move with the times.. with an open wallet
That's always ok as long as it comes out of taxpayers pockets....
Anyone got Vertigan's email address....? How close is the ABS data to his projections again....?
i was thinking Mal and his whiteboard.....
the 2007-2015 download curve is impressive and showing no sign of abating, it certainly looks outsize compared to the subscriber growth.
the other thing that caught my eye was the fixed line/wireless split in Dec 15...
1 673 123 TB downloaded on fixed line
41 757 TB by wireless.
on that sort of trajectory id estimate jun 16 is going to report 2 million terabytes for the 3 months..
http://www.zdnet.com/article
"Average monthly download usage on the NBN network was 73GB in March 2015, but was 110GB by September, a rise of 51 percent in just six months"... and the demand for data marches on...
I'm far more upbeat about it.
The underlying reasoning for the drop to FTTN though, because obviously the cost wasn't even close to being a reason, is how long the LNP can keep their friends in profit. So long as those 'friends' aren't also supporting the labor party we might see some change when the LNP are finally buried.
I'm not so hopeful though. I've no doubt that the labor party harbor just as many morally corrupt individuals that will line their pockets with payments from self interested third parties like Murdoch, and will equally hold us back in the 20th century for as long as possible to ensure that their profits don't suffer. Governments are owned by corporations, and don't place as much stock in the electorate as they should.
At the last election the Coalition released their plan in April 2013. Turnbull intends to have an election on 2 July.
While it is true their first announcement with non-costed (by PBO) estimates and time frames they've so far failed miserably to stick to was in April 2013, there was no such plan to have FTTP or FTTdp as the end game.
Do you honestly think people would have bought their plan, their lies if that was the end game they took to the electorate?
Spend $30billion (uncosted) on the existing network that will then need to be upgraded again to a technology more like Labor's original plan for a cost not included in said $30billion nor their time frame. If they were honest they would have been told to go to hell.
Labor needs to be able to differentiate itself from the Coalition. What is Labor saying that makes them any different from the government?
Firstly Labor should ask how long will the current MTM take to build, how much will it cost for real, then how much longer and at what expense will it take to get to this mythic fibre endgame you speak of?
Labor needs to justify the spend in having to unbreak the NBN, but, we're still waiting for justification from the Coalition on why they broke it in the first place because they've not come close to achieving the "Faster, Cheaper, Sooner" 3 word slogan they originally used.
And don't forget, the 3 word slogan was literally their justification. Nothing else needed or expected of Abbott at the time. Why the demands of more from Shorten?
I think you're right and we should demand more but I'm wondering why you think it's ok to do so for Labor while accepting a fraction of what you demand from the Liberal Party?
Timelines for delivery of fibre under Labor are questions that FTTP supporters should ask.
Non supporters of FTTP should be asking the hard questions of the government and NBN as to why they are failing to deliver, and why their policy cost has blown out to nearly twice what it is supposed to be. That is where the real problems lie, and that is where people are rightly putting their focus. I am astounded that you are happy with the waste of taxpayer dollars that is the MTM, and that you are fine to let it run on without question!
Not asking that question means less of a chance to influence policy.
FTTN was supposed to be the holy grail for cheaper and faster. Its been neither. Where are the questions as to why so you can influence the actual rollout and policy that is in place now? That is what is important. Desperately trying to deflect to Labor achieves nothing in fixing todays mess.
Governments are owned by corporations, and don't place as much stock in the electorate as they should.
Never more than in current times � we have seen it quite openly with NBN IMO � perhaps they are a bit full of themselves and pushing the limits further and further to the point of inadvertent slips ...or leaks from those that care...
Non supporters of FTTP should be asking the hard questions of the government and NBN as to why they are failing to deliver, and why their policy cost has blown out to nearly twice what it is supposed to be.
They must have known that going into it otherwise why would they have inflated the "true cost" of Labor's plan with enough meat to cover their lies?
At the last election the Coalition released their plan in April 2013.
How about telling the full story for a change Kingforce? The Libs released their policy months after Gillard announced the election date on 30th January 2013. Given the actual fact that the Libs took months to put out their policy, we can only assume you wont be a hypocrite and allow Labor a few months after Turnbull announces an actual election date to have their policy ready?
Turnbull intends to have an election on 2 July Again, in the interest of facts, where has Turnbull announced the election will be on July 2?
EDIT:
Turnbull has said that fibre is the endgame. HAhaha! that's even less committal than the claims you keep bleating on about from Jason Clare who you claim hasn't said will get rid of FTTN and go back to fibre. Turnbull says it and its true though LOL!! Where is Turnbulls upgrade plan and costings if he is serious about getting us there? Where is the corporate plan that shows NBN Co can even pay for itself let alone generate extra funds? So many awkward questions you cant bring yourself to ask.
why their policy cost has blown out to nearly twice what it is supposed to be.
The budget was never based on any reality... like when they said that the labor policy was going to cost $90billion. It was a bullshit, made up number to scare the electorate. The LNP are always doing this, and the ignorant majority just fall for it every time.
FTTN was supposed to be the holy grail for cheaper and faster.
Turnbullshit had the media talking about his time on the board at ozemail, as if he had a clue (where in reality even as a board member he was a politician, and knew nothing about the day-to-day running of an ISP), and the public lapped it up. In reality the kickbacks from the media was what built up his credence, even when Tony was looking like a first class idiot. That media have a huge self-interest in making the LNP seem legitimate... Foxtel needs to stay in profit for at least the next few years while it gets its internet presence profitable.
Cheaper and faster are things the people want, so that's what the government spouts. But none of it is real, and it's not going to happen while Murdoch is in power.
Everybody gave Labor a free pass then so what makes you think the voter cares if the Coalition are (potentially) behind now?
What a load of crap. The media were all over about the smallest thing. They would never have gotten away with being months overdue for their 3 year plan like NBN Co is now. No questions about why that is Kingforce? Remember Coffee Machine-gate? You are truly deluded if you think Labor and NBN Co were getting free passes on anything.
The question that needs asking is where is the same level of investigation and indignation over the farce that is occurring at the moment. Why is NBN Co and the government getting away with not being open and transparent as promised by your beloved Turnbull, and that people have to rely on leaks to get any information?
They must have known that going into it otherwise why would they have inflated the "true cost" of Labor's plan with enough meat to cover their lies?
They absolutely did, and Paul Fletcher even admitted they did that. Still, the Libs cant do any wrong by some.
I have it from a very good source that the NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight. Now don't blame me if the story gets bumped by something like a nickel refinery being put into receivership.....
NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight
Set timer to record. Thanks
Fluff piece or will they interview someone that knows what's really going on.
Cheaper and faster are things the people want, so that's what the government spouts. But none of it is real, and it's not going to happen while Murdoch is in power.
It's a matter of finding a way to relate the "Cheaper, Faster" nonsense in a way people understand what it actually means.
But even then, some people really don't think about tomorrow. The crowd who blow their fortnightly pay packet by the eve of payday aren't going to care about the downsides so lone as they can get a better car sooner and cheaper than their neighbours.
What they won't care about is the catch that it's not as fast as and will need to be replaced at a greater expense in the future to only be just as good (at best) as their neighbours car was originally which they had to spend a little more on and wait a little longer, but less in both categories overall.
They got a cheaper car sooner, well, at least that's what they were told when they left the show room. Sure the car now costs more, almost as much as their neighbours and it's been delayed, almost a long as their neighbours, but as long as they hold on to the sales pitch which included lies about the manufacturer of the neighbours car, it's all good. Smart savy decision, right?
Edit: on reading that, perhaps they could care...
Short sighted stupidity and gullibility are the fuel that the Liberal Party need to survive.
Labor aren't much better but at least they are forced somewhat to do right by the people...
The budget was never based on any reality... like when they said that the labor policy was going to cost $90billion. It was a bullshit, made up number to scare the electorate. The LNP are always doing this, and the ignorant majority just fall for it every time.
Fifield is still doing it, spouting forth his $30 billion more and 10 years longer crap at every opportunity. Its a shame the media don't press Fifield more on his lies, and why Morrow is contradicting him by saying fibre is actually getting cheaper and cheaper to roll out. Its a pretty obvious point to raise that will make Fifield look silly.
I have it from a very good source that the NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight. Now don't blame me if the story gets bumped by something like a nickel refinery being put into receivership.....
Thanks for the heads up Mark. Please world don't go into crisis between now and then!
Edit: Just checked the 730 abc twitter page and found this along with a quote with you Mark:
#NBN critics say rolling out fibre to the node is stopping Australia being a leader in the digital economy #abc730
"It's probably the most expensive project to roll out an obsolete second hand technology in the world's history." � RMIT computer engineer, Mark Gregory
spouting forth his $30 billion more and 10 years longer crap at every opportunity.
Historically they've already proven that these lies work... they see jumps in the polls every time one of their lies is printed by their captive press outlets.
I have it from a very good source that the NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight.
Good hopefully it starts a rational discussion on the best way forward from here.
The problem to date has been the story does not get much coverage in the mainstream media and many voters are not aware of the differences and find it hard to understand.
I personally believe that if voters could understand the issue they would prefer FTTH over MTM.
As from a technology view, long term maintenance, and return on investment it is a no brainer.
The problem to date has been Turnbull is very good at confusing the electorate and getting them to accept his distorted view of the FTTH solution at face value.
However, the problem for Turnbull will be if/when the electorate start to wise up, he has nowhere to hide on this issue.
The ALP should turn this into an election issue, they would be crazy not to.
A side issue is the current NBN management are very secretive, to be honest they strike me as totally incompetent. I'm not sure how they have taken so much time and money to achieve very little.
Again a little sunlight on this issue would be a great step forward, again, MT has nowhere to hide and no one else to blame.
I have it from a very good source that the NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight.
With Mark Scott in the departure lounge and the new ABC Managing Director (ex-Google Michelle Guthrie) still waiting to get her feet under the table, now is a perfect time for the ABC to take the gloves off over the NBN.
- The Vertigan Panel projections for usage look like a massive error
- Backbench MPs are getting hammered for NBN related delays and issues
- The LNP are looking wishy-washy and the NBN proves they can't deliver infrastructure
- Even the Murdoch press are smelling blood
- Team Australia are dropping down the rankings on Global Internet access speeds
- Cost blowouts and delays on access power are whose fault? (a risky technology to replace a proven one)
- Even ScoMo sees Malcolm is out of his depth
The ABC could do a real expose on Australia's largest infrastructure project and trail of mismanagement for which all roads lead to the Prime Minister.
Bring it on.
What matters is how many underground LiCs need to be built. The rest is just semantics.
maybe, but as they are using the term "LIC" to mean more than a "blocked lead in conduit", the number of blocked in ground lead in conduits is actually unknown, as any data from nbn� databases will include ALL forms of the term "blocked LIC" so it may inflate the actual numbers.
I have it from a very good source that the NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight. Now don't blame me if the story gets bumped by something like a nickel refinery being put into receivership.....
You need to do an educational piece on the various limitations of copper and how fibre overcomes them.
The ABC could do a real expose on Australia's largest infrastructure project and trail of mismanagement for which all roads lead to the Prime Minister.
I don't think that they have the necessary courage. Just have a look at what happened to Nick Ross when he made a comparison between MTM and FTTP technology being rolled out by NBN Co. Or to put it another way the ABC has had this story for years and done nothing..
Peter McCutcheon
Nearly 50,000 Australians now using Fibre to the Node technology. My report including iv with #NBN's Bill Morrow on #abc730 tonight.
Ah well, probably a puff piece. Nothing to see here then.
Never let it be said that I don't give credit where it is due.
I must applaud the doubling of active FTTP connections over the last year to 645,000 � so all credit to Stephen Conroy for being a more effective Comms Minister in opposition than Turnbull or Fifield are in power
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.a
FTTP connections almost doubled during the period covered by the ABS� latest Internet Activity report, growing from 324,000 to 645,000.
The ABC could do a real expose on Australia's largest infrastructure project and trail of mismanagement for which all roads lead to the Prime Minister.
Bring it on.
That would only lead to more cries of "#TheirABC" and should the Coalition retain office more cuts will be on the way.
Honest journalism and sticking to their charter has never been more dangerous for the ABC.
the ABC has had this story for years and done nothing
That's my point.
With Scott leaving and Guthrie not yet in place, they can get back to proper journalism and expose this clusterfcuk.
It's a free kick.
I must applaud the doubling of active FTTP connections over the last year to 645,000
Seriously? Whose planning efforts do you think made this possible? If that's the shill that is being released by the current NBN administration (yes, they're all LNP appointees now.. as well as rejects from Telstra and Optus) then you can tell that there's definitely an election in the pipeline.
Whose planning efforts do you think made this possible?
Did you actually read my second paragraph?
Did you actually read my second paragraph?
I did... and it doesn't change the fact that comments like "The significant increase in usage over the NBN network tells us the more bandwidth Australians have, the more content we want to consume" from the LNP shill Dennis Steiger aren't still missing the point. People are using the internet, and in an exponentially increasing way, and that anything short of a full FTTP rollout is going to stifle growth.
I've yet to see the term 'cord cutting' used by Australian internet users... and until that is their goal, actively ditching Murdoch's foxtel monopoly, then it's not enough.
People are using the internet, and in an exponentially increasing way, and that anything short of a full FTTP rollout is going to stifle growth.
Which is why I was crediting Conroy.
NBN, building tomorrow's network for yesterdays demand, and then we'll just move with the times.. with an open wallet
I think "Building yesterdays network, for todays needs, tomorrow" should be the new campaign slogan for the LNP in the coming election.
#NBN critics say rolling out fibre to the node is stopping Australia being a leader in the digital economy #abc730
Actually, I don't think the LNP give a damn about being a world leader in anything. Past history is that they prefer to be world followers; as late as possible, as evidenced by how long it took to get TV, colour TV, FM radio and digital radio compared to the rest of the western world.
The Project on Ch10 highlighted the NBN issue
FINALLY the truth is revealed on commercial prime time tv! :)
Well done Waleed Aly.
FINALLY the truth is revealed on commercial prime time tv! :)
Well done Waleed Aly.
Got a summary or is there a text of what he said?
https://twitter.com/hashtag/WhoToBlame?src=hash
nm Found this.
https://twitter.com/abc730/s
Some angry commenters on that ABC tweet. Nice quote too MG. ;)
I have it from a very good source that the NBN will be second story on 7:30 tonight. Now don't blame me if the story gets bumped by something like a nickel refinery being put into receivership.....
Just read your post at 7:29pm. Great timing for me. Thanks Mark.
Does FTTN require an NBN enclosure in the garage?
ABC 7:30 program just showed what is on tonights show and nbn is most certainly on tonight � stay tuned!
https://twitter.com/theproje
Waleed (with a few minor mistakes) just decimated the MTM NBN.
but as they are using the term "LIC" to mean more than a "blocked lead in conduit",
I am not sure what you are saying here. My understanding is that LiC means 'Lead-in Conduit' which would be specific to underground 'lead-ins', unless aerial 'lead-ins' are also in a conduit in some instances.
the number of blocked in ground lead in conduits is actually unknown,
Agreed
as any data from nbn� databases will include ALL forms of the term "blocked LIC" so it may inflate the actual numbers.
Once again � not sure what you are getting at.
The numbers given to the senate hearing are clearly percentage of actuals at a given point in time (14 December 2015?). The terms used were existing, new and aerial. It is not clear whether this includes all existing, new and aerial leadins from the build/bulk drop programs, or is just for completed activations (I suspect the latter).
As you said, the number of blocked / direct buried lead-ins is unknown. What the data on actuals gives is some guidance as to what to expect. There are additional factors which may contribute to expectations. Building out from the centre (older suburbs) to the outside (newer suburbs) may be one such.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
This is a better version of that 7:30 Report piece.
Waleed (with a few minor mistakes) just decimated the MTM NBN.
Yes � brilliant. The NBN is definitely on the the agenda !
Possibly already posted but..
"But look, the biggest infrastructure projects in this country's history were built with the future in mind.
"The Snowy Mountains Scheme was built to last hundreds of years, the Sydney Harbour Bridge was built with 8 lanes, not two.
"But now, as we enter Malcolm Turnbull's 'age of innovation' and we're told the NBN is the most important infrastructure project of the 21st century, we're expected to rely on a decaying copper network that experts say is already past its use-by date, instead of investing in fibre which the same experts say could service our internet needs for the next 100 years."
Mr Morrow said fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) could be upgraded in the future if there was enough demand.
At what cost, Mr. Morrow?
God I wish journos would give Morrow the kicking he deserves.
According to the public statements of nbn it is ~1 in 4 as mentioned above. See here whrl.pl/RezO2f
I do not accept the validity of public statements from NBN�. Based on NBN�'s track record it could be 10%.
Leaked documents form NBN Co put the figure at 10%, I expect that is probably the truth instead of the overtly politicised comments from NBN Co execs.
My favorite part:
So if you're watching this right now on the internet, and you had to wait for even a second for this video to buffer, you know who to blame
Tony Abbott� and the guy who he says invented the internet.
Waleed (with a few minor mistakes) just decimated the MTM NBN.
A much better expos� than the 7:30 Report tonight.
If anything, FTTN areas need to be second priority (after ADSL/nothing), ahead of HFC.
Verhemently disagree. The slower uplink on HFC makes any prospect of leveraging cloud offerings for offsite storage or serving content totally infeasible.
FTTN isn't much better but it's likely to be 10 times faster than HFC.
A much better expos� than the 7:30 Report tonight.
I'm just watching 7.30 now... off to the right start, with the deluded old politician ranting in (where else) a Telstra vehicle. I certainly find it hilarious that on the big screen they have finder.com.au/nbn, not nbn�'s website.
As well as getting pissed off when Morrow lies about the rollout being on track, I cringed when the reporter referred to "fibre to the premise"...
It just gets worse, with the milk man and reporter crapping on about "getting something today instead of in three years time" � someone should have told him that if the luddites hadn't been elected and deliberately slowed the rollout he may well have had FTTP by now.
Morrow claiming that FTTN can be upgraded is the biggest lie of them all � either he's a complete idiot, or he actually means "replaced" not "upgraded".
Would you rather spend it now and bet that it's going to be needed or wait and spend it as it's actually proven to be needed? � NBN CEO, Bill Morrow
Bit of a tired model Bill is using � forever playing catch up.
If the job description for NBN CEO was #1 be a dickhead and #2 be a LNP muppet then Bill is the right choice.
Waleed (with a few minor mistakes) just decimated the MTM NBN.
This is a better version of that 7:30 Report piece.
I really do not agree with those 2 down the bottom. Especially the video upload to youtube. The upload speeds FTTN will provide will still be crap. Waleed's report is better for sure
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