Interesting. The coalition has been savaged for years over their MTM approach, and now Jason Clare and Labor announce their slightly modified MTM approach, and they are applauded? What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete, and the maintenance costs making it uneconomical compared to the FTTP? What happened to the supposed unlimited social and economic benefits of FTTP which meant roll out cost didn't matter, that Australia couldn't afford NOT to have fiber? What happened to the "do it right, do it fiber blah blah" mantra? Now suddenly the costs matter, suddenly FTTN and HFC is fit for purpose, and suddenly Labor sell out on their vision and are prepared to burden millions of Australians with second rate, century copper and rubbish HFC just to pinch a few pennies.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC .
I don't know where you got that opinion from, but it is wrong. Labor isn't relying on FTTN, or HFC. The HFC networks have essentially been "paid for" and thus need to be used, or NBN Co will be wasting money. That isn't an acceptable proposition, and no one should be suggesting it is. As for the FTTN part, the current and near-future builds can't be stopped or changed. Doing so would waste money as well, and anger the contractors who would have purchased the components required for FTTN. Leaving that part of FTTN in place makes good sense. As for the rest of the build, it will be FTTP, fixed wireless, or satellite.
Depending on how the "pending" build for my area is handled (currently slated for FTTN, H2 2017), if it stays FTTN, I'll be less than impressed, but if it can be changed to FTTP, I'll be a happy chappy...
Anyone know if this is true ?
Yes, that is true, but he forgets to tell his fellow Australians is, that the largest amount of active services is actually on FTTP, fixed-wireless and Satellite which are all technologies in the technology mix of Labor's NBNv1.
A small portion is on FTTN, a even smaller portion on FTTB and none of HFC.
In other words Malcolm, the LNP and NBN Co take the achievements of others and make it their own. Bit like plagiarism ...
Just heard Malcolm Turnbull on the ABC's World Today dismissing the Labor plan.
He claimed that the NBN has connected more premises in the past month (?) than Labor had in all their time. Anyone know if this is true ?
You need to do more research. Malcolm, Mitch Fifield, Bill Morrows all lie through their teeth.
There is around 1 million premises connected. 800k plus connections are FTTP connections due to labors work. 100-200k are satelite and fixed wireless which is also due to labors work.
only around 50k connections are FTTN (of which some of them are FTTB connections.
Liberals like to steal other peoples credit and claim it as their own. Do you really want to trust these luddites running Australia?
The backpedal stuck out like dog's balls.
Well what do you expect? their hands are tied to a degree, they can't just scrap everything the LNP put in place and start fresh, that'd be political suicide aswell as being a terrible idea. extra cost, extra time, no one would accept it and it'd destroy any chance the ALP have of getting in.
This is the best they could propose, it's a huge step in the right direction while not shooting themselves in the foot.
At least in my area, nothing has even started yet.
I might still stand a chance of getting FTTP after all.
Well said..
Renai covered well, why it is a good policy.
At least in my area, northing has even started yet.
I might still stand a chance of getting FTTP after all.
Likewise
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are not going to bother as they know project fox was a cherry picked rollout that was done in Melton, 50-60KM from the Melb CBD.
Completely wrong...Project Fox was "cherry-picked" as the most representative rollout possible.
Labor will retain the status quo of MTM for the next few years
Or put another way, Labor will be stuck with the remains of the LNP stuff-up for the next few years (you can only clean this up so fast). But the immediate deployment change to FTTP, and the immediate phase out of FTTN as well as the study to replace the rest of the MTM is of course more in line with a responsible government decision
slightly modified MTM approach, and they are applauded?
Firstly, go read the policy.
Secondly, for how long on this very forum have fibre-supporters been saying it's too late to switch back to a full FTTP rollout? that ship sailed a long time ago, the best thing either party could do is something like this, roll out as much fibre as they can, get revenue from that going and then go from there.
Obviously they haven't announced where they'll go from there (it's still 8+ years away and pending an election).
What did you expect? trot out their 93% FTTP rollout again? would've been political suicide and just not feasible.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
They can not immediately dump FTTN,
Who said they were? You didnt read their Policy either.. !
Labor will be stuck with the remains of the LNP stuff-up for the next few years
They will be confronted with the remains for a lot longer than a few years. Imagine the ICT systems, imagine to maintain it, imagine to attempt to keep it up to a reasonable standard.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Whatever happened to Operation Clust**** making HFC bad according to conroy?
The Federal Government and NBN Co left Federal Labor with no choice but to get to like Clusterflaps or to eventually having to commit X$B extra to the flaps to ensure that it meets minimum requirements during peak periods, or start to overbuild or upgrade it to a better, more reliable and cost effective to maintain and upscale more fibrous solution.
What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete
They are, but Malcolm has already spent the money. They will be converted to FTTP as soon as is financially possible, and a study will be immediately commissioned to determine when and how to do that.
I will say that this policy is the very best that we could expect. Well done Clare!
In other words Malcolm, the LNP and NBN Co take the achievements of others and make it their own. Bit like plagiarism ...
To put that into perspective the reality the Australian public need to understand that Mike Quigley together with his team under the previous Labor Government were responsible for the following!
1. Built from scratch a company of close to 3000 people with all of the processes and systems needed to function as a wholesale telecommunications company.
2. Successfully launched an Interim Satellite service, which was more popular than had been anticipated.
3. Designed and contracted a Long Term Satellite solution that was on schedule and on budget for services beginning in mid 2015.
4. Designed and was deploying a 4G, Fixed Wireless network.
5. Designed and was deploying a Transit Network to support all access technologies.
This project was on budget and on schedule for completion by 2015.
6. Designed, developed and deployed fully functioning OSS/BSS systems that had been proven to function at scale.
7. Designed and established a National Test Facility and a Network Operations Centre.
8. Successfully designed, developed and launched a suite of Products covered by a Wholesale Broadband Agreement which were signed by many Retail Service Providers.
9. Developed a 27-year Special Access Undertaking, which was subsequently accepted by the ACCC. This was unprecedented.
10.Built a Greenfields fibre capability that could complete more than 30 new developments a week, anywhere in the country.
11.Built a Customer Connect capability that had connected more than 100k end users and which was rapidly growing the ability to deal with the exceptionally high take-up rates that were being experienced.
12.While the construction phase of the Brownfields fibre rollout experienced difficulties these problems were being overcome while preserving the integrity of NBN Co�s financial plan.
It should be noted that any one of the projects NBN Co was undertaking; Satellite, Fixed Wireless, Brownfields, Greenfields, the Transit Network, a major OSS/BSS development, a new wholesale product and pricing structure plus a 27-year SAU, would be a major challenge for even a mature Telco.
NBN Co was doing it all simultaneously while building a company from a standing start.
Source: Mike Quigley
//
So given that Malcolm took over with only the "volume rollout" component of the network to deal with -
The fact is that FRAUDBAND under turnbull and co is well behind � what would have been rolled out in terms of premises passed under Labor given hat Mike Quigley had finally nailed the contractors down to delivering on what they were contracted to provide and that "Telstra" had finally got its act together with Pit remediation coupled with the results as provided in Project Fox eg 60 percent reduction in deployment time and 50 percent reduction in costs � together with other now available solutions would seen the company well on the way to achieving its objectives!
//
And yet now under turnbull and Co we have the CEO Bill Morrow stating that the NBN Rollout is on track!
So lets look at the numbers here on this to get a comparison of just how truthful Bill's statement actually is, based on the original milestones set down for the project � and here I will refer to
a) NBN tm Corporate Plan 2016 � which provides and "dont' laugh please"
FY15, operational performance highlights include: total premises RFS (excluding satellite): 1,165k
*Note with around 48,000 on the ISS as provided by Labor it makes around 1.2 million!
So 1.2 million according to Bill Morrow is on target with no delays?? -
//
Compared with
b) Mike Quigley's and Labors 2012-2015 Corporate Plan which provided for and I quote!
9.5 Deployment Profile
The 2012-15 Corporate Plan incorporates the revised deployment forecasts and the 6 month extension to June 2021. It forecasts that 13 million premises will be passed or covered by NBN Co by the end of FY2021 (100% of premises across all networks).
By the end of FY2015, NBN Co forecasts passing or covering 3.7 million premises, of which 2.9 million will be with Fibre.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/asse
Unsurprisingly Malcolm continues to manufacture nonsensical unsubstantiated fabrications to somehow support the train wreck that he's now responsible for and present somehow that he's doing better than what Labor would have provided!
When the reality is that his FRAUDBAND network has seen Australia drop from 30th under Labor where it was continuing to rise again to now 60th and continuing to drop as others go the Fibre route and his numbers simply don't add up except in terms of budget blowouts, delays, and the growing litany of broken promises which do.
I will say that this policy is the very best that we could expect. Well done Clare!
Indeed, and in the same ballpark as for lnp for cost and timeframe.
Why are the trolls against this?
I'd like some clarification, (from Labour as anything else is just opinion at this stage,) of the existing build pipeline of works and changeover to FTTP. I live in 5CMD NBN area and have build starting in the second half of this year. In our own thread of locals there look to be no real start on remediation in the area but given the timeline has works starting this year, I have to think that contracts would already have been awarded.
Cynically, I believe it is in Labour's best interest to not give specifics and say 'each will be reviewed' as people like myself already with a build plan in the next 12mths would be in for terrible disappointment, knowing that the NBN will actually get better but not for you.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor will retain the status quo of MTM for the next few years
You really need to read the ALP policy before posting Raoul.
Today was about a slight differentiation to the MTM plan with Labor proposing to make slight variations closer to the end of the decade .
LOL, talk about living in a fantasy world.
it will take a very long time to implement FTTP.
Are you saying that Turnbull and co have completely screwed up nbn� so badly that they've forgotten how to do the job they were created to do?
You really need to read the ALP policy before posting Raoul.
Seems none of the tr..lls have read the policy. Just responding ad-hoc from kiddy scripts.
Cynically, I believe it is in Labour's best interest to not give specifics and say 'each will be reviewed' as people like myself already with a build plan in the next 12mths would be in for terrible disappointment, knowing that the NBN will actually get better but not for you.
If built has already started then you're stuck with FTTN, but that doesn't mean your vote doesn't matter � improving the overall economics of the project will benefit you also (with reduction to CVC charges for example) and reduce the time you'll be stuck on FTTN.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC .
Yours is an incredibly foolish and uninformed response.
Labor's policy is the best that can be realistically done, given the huge mess that Malcolm Turnbull and the LNP have done. I'm sorry if people aren't being 'fibre zealots' like you expect.
FTTN and HFC are crap and obsolete. But the LNP have screwed the country into needing to continue that rollout for just long enough to get the fibre rollout ramped up again. Labor's plan is the best anyone can do.
To put that into perspective
It is a comfortable idea to be able to always rely on your thoroughness. :)
It seems to indicate to me that the HFC contracts have been signed and they are forced to use it hence the only 40% FTTP.
I understand the issue is the sunk costs on HFC, Clare said it was more than $1b, I am not sure if he mispoke or if it is that much.
That was pretty impressive imo. My opinion of Clare has gone up a bit.
I have met him once and spent maybe 15 minutes having a chat, I agree.
You really need to read the ALP policy before posting Raoul.
Where can I read it?
Where can I read it?
Here we are:
http://www.100positivepo
If built has already started then you're stuck with FTTN
Yes this part of their statement is clear but my question was more on the specifics about what is in build and what isn't. NBN have three year build plan, you could say any area outlined there is actually in build. Obviously the reality will be more related to which areas have had their contracts issued and equipment/materials purchased. So, back to the original question and my assertion that we will not find out the details. My area is not in build, but it is close. Many people will be in the same boat, NBN builds starting in the next 6-12mths and they will want to know how this effects them, but sadly it would be not in Labour interest to tell us.
Re voting, I'm pragmatic enough to know that a vote for faster, more fibre broadband is better for everyone and our economy regardless of if it gets delivered to me.
Thanks for the policy links, guys.
For many very good reasons.
Most of it political. There seems to be a trend on here that when Liberal party does something it's bad, but when the Labor does something it's good. Or when Liberals tell something it's a lie, when Labor says something it's the unadulterated truth. When Liberals do something " it's for political purposes" , when Labor "because they truly care about people and have great economic vision". There doesn't seem to be any middle ground or grey area, it's all just base, partisan, petty politics.
It's not a slight modification of the Coalition's failed approach.
Yes it is. Under their policy only 39% will be getting FTTP, the rest will be getting a turd sandwich. Its only slightly different to the mix identified in the strategic review, which we all know how that was received. Handing overlay responsibility of FTTN network to IA is just bait to appease fibre fanatics who demand nothing less . Of course Labor could just come out and say "we're going to commit x dollars to transition fttn customers to fttp" is just a cop out because they lack the will to seriously commit to it.
That is all still true. Sadly, the luddites got elected and have proceeded to infect the project � it'll take a long time to cut out all the rot.
If it's all true, then why don't Labor proceed to roll out fibre to 93% of premises as per their original plan and therefore save the economy and budget billions in maintenance and continued "infection" costs? Saying it's gonna take a "long time" is just a cop out because in truth everyone knows FTTN and HFC will be OKAY in the short term and possibly mid term.
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say.
What part of the policy gave you the impression that FTTN is in any way fit for purpose? As for HFC, the luddites and their dodgy contracts have locked it in so short of giving Telstra yet another massive bucket of cash the only option is to spend massive amounts of money on bringing it up to scratch.
The part where Labor announced they will continue with a % of FTTN households without committing to migrating these households to FTTP. Given that absolutely no country in the world is currently upgrading it's entire population to FTTP I don't think this will rate high on IA's agenda.
sadly it would be not in Labour interest to tell us.
True, perhaps you should ask Malcolm where that "more transparency" is which he promised he would implement once he would be Telecommunication Minister.
Nobody knows what is issued contractual wise. And attempting to get that information can result in a visit of the AFP.
Your question is absolute fair and valid, yet nobody is able to answer that question other than NBN Co.
the rest will be getting a turd sandwich.
So you acknowledge the mtm is a turd? At last..
There seems to be a trend on here that when Liberal party does something it's bad
I think you are just being paranoid and looking at everything through political lenses...
I (and most here) just look at the results. When it hurts the country it is bad, when it helps the country it is good.
When John Howard got rid of the guns, that was good...when the LNP came up with this monstrosity, that was bad.
Under their policy only 39% will be getting FTTP, the rest will be getting a turd sandwich
That is actually a Turdbull sandwich...that money and commitment has already been made by the LNP, and cannot reasonably be undone quickly. They have also committed to immediately commissioning a study on how to undo the Turd...
Yes it could. But then again they could raise the funding cap.
It seems pretty silly to me to cap government equity investment and then cap private debt on an infrastructure project of this nature.
As Frank mentioned there isn't really an end to the entire rollout, just the brownfields component (and this is what they really mean when they talk of a cap, I suppose).
I suspect it's political.
Agreed. Let us hope (in vain � I know) that the politics will be put aside.
They've been hamstrung in their performance by having to toe the government line.
If the failure of management to find savings in the FttP rollout is due to them having to toe the government line all the more reason to get rid of the shifty pricks. What a misuse of public funds!
If it is because they were simply unable to find savings � get rid of them and give someone else a go.
Most of it political.
None of it political � all are technical and economic.
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground or grey area, it's all just base, partisan, petty politics.
That's definitely true of MTM supporters.
Yes it is.
If you believe that then you need to read the policy and keep reading it over and over until it sinks in.
Under their policy only 39% will be getting FTTP, the rest will be getting a turd sandwich.
So you admit that the MTM is a turd sandwich?
Its only slightly different to the mix identified in the strategic review, which we all know how that was received.
You are confused � the strategic review was a political document created at the time that NBNCo were doing their job and rolling out the NBN... it has no relevance to the disastrous situation Turnbull et al have put us in.
If it's all true, then why don't Labor proceed to roll out fibre to 93% of premises as per their original plan and therefore save the economy and budget billions in maintenance and continued "infection" costs?
You can't undo an infection!
everyone knows FTTN and HFC will be OKAY in the short term and possibly mid term.
The only people who know that are those that uncritically believe what Malcolm Turnbull says � anyone with technical or economic savvy knows that it's rubbish.
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say.
Isn't it amazing that every Coalition supporter here seems to say the same thing?
The part where Labor announced they will continue with a % of FTTN households without committing to migrating these households to FTTP.
You really need to read the policy again.
Given that absolutely no country in the world is currently upgrading it's entire population to FTTP I don't think this will rate high on IA's agenda.
You should probably read about the original NBN policy also, to understand why your discussion of "upgrading an entire population to FTTP" is irrelevant.
I am a bit confused about the HFC retention in Labor's policy.
What does this really mean?
I am a bit confused about the HFC retention in Labor's policy.
What does this really mean?
It's means that the HFC will remain for meantime with possible overbuild with fttp on completion of nbn.
How do we know which suburbs/regional areas are in the lucky 2 million figure? I really want to know.
I am a bit confused about the HFC retention in Labor's policy.
What does this really mean?
The new agreement with Telstra and purchase of equipment means that much of the HFC has already been bought and cannot be stopped. They will be commissioning Internet Australia on developing a plan and timing for changing both existing FTTN and HFC to FTTP...
Most of it political. There seems to be a trend on here that when Liberal party does something it's bad, but when the Labor does something it's good.
Given that the LNP have had what is it now twenty or so different policies since they sold Telstra off � none of which has served the National interest I might add, nor worked other than for the vested interests associated with their policies then this is quite understandable!
Then you have for example Tony Abbott ordering Malcolm Turnbull to "Demolish the NBN"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
Which of course was "bad" for All Australians.
Whilst Labor continue with their Fibre vision in spite of the train wreck turnbull and co together with the rest of the LNP have been responsible for with respect to the last 3 years and their FRAUDBAND alternative.
And I might add their openly stated policy of "privatising" NBN Co as soon as possible!
Which effectively doesn't provide for migrating those poor bastards off the obsolete copper and digital abyss that turnbull has bulldozed them into.
Whoops but's that's another thing that provides an ideological divide between providing a national network with equality of access to all Australians under Labor and the LNP's policy of allowing the so called "free market" to provide a solution � which simply doesn't work with what essentially should be considered a public utility service. A point that even the President of the United States of America has made comment on, given its importance to all citizens today and more importantly � into the future.
What does this really mean?
They'll be using the HFC.
In theory it should be fine.
The practice, given the notable delays from the Coalition on getting anyone onto it, remains to be seen.
if not posted
'We will look at this" is a cheap consolation to all those with FTTN. The review will say, "it will cost $X Billion" and then the govt will have to sell this further investment in a future election.
I feel like Labour have utterly failed to connect with the message that NBN isn't a cost, it is investment. Both the actual money used will be paid back through user subscription AND the fact that modernising our economy via fast broadband. Massive failure to connect on this message. People just don't get it, as the average person about the NBN and they would assume the money comes out of the budget against other services like health or middle class welfare.
How do we know which suburbs/regional areas are in the lucky 2 million figure?
The best we can tell so far is that if you're not on the (out of date but we're not allowed to see an update) three year rollout plan, don't have HFC available nearby and were in the fixed line footprint of the NBN then you'll probably get FTTP... beyond that it's a matter of guesswork.
Simple point is, if the LNP/coalition didn't stick their ideological driven ore in this wouldn�t be a problem today.
But no the LNP has to go against a policy just out of spite and refuses to listen to expert advice because they are arrogant enough to think whats best.
Now the ALP has to clean up as much as possible of the disaster the LNP has created.
LNP did the destruction out of political spite.
Now we can hope for the best out of the situation that ALP has laid out to fix the LNP/coalition mongrel.
I feel like Labour have utterly failed to connect with the message that NBN isn't a cost, it is investment. Both the actual money used will be paid back through user subscription AND the fact that modernising our economy via fast broadband. Massive failure to connect on this message.
Yep, although I don't know how much of that is Labor not saying it and how much is the media not reporting what they do say.
Labor's plan is the best anyone can do.
With the best the Federal Coalition can do after any election win is probably to declare NBN Co bankrupt, a failed GBE experiment, and shut up shop ASAP.
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground or grey area, it's all just base, partisan, petty politics.
We are in care taker mode and if you didn't notice an election is coming up. :)
Being political agnostic, as engineer, I say any policy that delivers faster speed Internet to Australians is good. We got a backlog of an odd 10 years there, implementing FTTN adds another 5 years on top of that for the large majority of our population. No politics, currently simply a network is build that is not cost-economical and is based on a 15 year old technology not being able to meet demand by 2020. Simple. No politics.
To be fair, I miss that in the ALP policy, the future demand for bandwidth which should drive this project at large on technology choice. The current state is highlighted sufficiently enough, but not the future demands. I miss that as argument to move to the FTTP roll out.
The part where Labor announced they will continue with a % of FTTN households without committing to migrating these households to FTTP.
Ah, you expect Labor to fix up the LNP's mistakes at first instance and bear the cost blow outs for it?
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say.
FTTN, short term, yes, middle long term no. HFC until at least some capital spending of the LNP as been returned. My concern is the state of the HFC. Labor could be caught out there if not careful.
I don't think this will rate high on IA's agenda.
I don't think that cost-economical decisions are a consideration for Infrastructure Australia. Infrastructure Australia should set a engineering perspective out for the government based on global developments in the world. It should replace the role of the Communications Alliance, which was more a lobby group of the Industry. We know the dramas on policy influence on that one. According to the Harper Review, policy should be made for all Australians. Not for a selected group of our Industry so I think the proposal is good, but I would make it a joint effort between End Users and engineers. I would invite Internet Australia to do the same to get the End Users point of view.
The best we can tell so far is that if you're not on the (out of date but we're not allowed to see an update) three year rollout plan, don't have HFC available nearby and were in the fixed line footprint of the NBN then you'll probably get FTTP... beyond that it's a matter of guesswork.
Yes I'm on the three year plan but late 2018 build. No HFC available and the FTTN work haven't been done yet. I guess we will see after a Shorten government win this July 2nd ????
Wow, they've come out and hit it for 6!
They knew what they needed to highlight!
They have my vote!
With the best the Federal Coalition can do after any election win is probably to declare NBN Co bankrupt, a failed GBE experiment, and shut up shop ASAP.
True, but sadly that is not an option. Not global development wise and most definitely not financially.
I feel like Labour have utterly failed to connect with the message that NBN isn't a cost, it is investment. Both the actual money used will be paid back through user subscription AND the fact that modernising our economy via fast broadband. Massive failure to connect on this message. People just don't get it, as the average person about the NBN and they would assume the money comes out of the budget against other services like health or middle class welfare.
I have to somewhat agree with you. This is backed up with the word invest or investment appearing about 6 times only in the 33 page policy document. Whereas the word "cost' appears about 26 times.
p3 The financial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has crashed from 7.1 per cent to as low as 2.7 per cent.
p17 Mr Turnbull�s decision to switch to inferior technologies has also had signi cant adverse effects on the return to taxpayers from their $29.5 billion investment.
p17 Under Mr Turnbull�s watch, the nancial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has now crashed from 7.1 per cent to as low as 2.7 per cent
p18 It is no longer possible to roll out bre-to-the-premises to 93 per cent of homes and businesses in one stage. Over the last three years, approximately $15.7 billion in public investment has been sunk into the NBN.47 Labor cannot x the mess Mr Turnbull has made with the flick of a switch, or by pulling out every node, or stopping all the work NBN is currently doing without potentially causing more problems and wasting a lot of sunk investment.
At 30 June 2016:
The taxpayer�s total investment in the NBN is expected to be $21 billion (of $29.5 billion total).
p21 Labor will reverse Mr Turnbull�s decision to place the West Coast of Tasmania on the satellites. Under Labor Queenstown, Zeehan and Rosebery will be delivered 21st century bre-to-the- premises, as they were promised by both parties in 2013. A provision for this investment has been made.
Mr Turnbull ignored this advice. Under his watch, the forecast nancial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has now plummeted to as low as 2.7 per cent.
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say
Thanks to lnp and their signing of dodgy ass contracts.. Should be held accountable imo
I guess we will see after a Shorten government win this July 2nd ????
IF Labor wins government, there is a lot of issues to deal with. Firstly and most important turning NBN Co again in a transparent GBE it once was. That will not be a easy task.
There is currently not much we know. And that includes information on which areas have been awarded by contracts and in which areas, work has actually started.
True, but sadly that is not an option.
In which case, Turnbull most definitely is Conservative toast, and consigned to the bargain fibre to the basement bin.
People just don't get it, as the average person about the NBN and they would assume the money comes out of the budget against other services like health or middle class welfare.
Currently the NBN isn't on budget � however given the disastrous predicament of its revenue base under the LNP and the fact they the LNP are yet to publish a business case to support further investment into their MTM alternative.
The reality is that it will have to be brought back onto budget which of course would see budget deficit which has tripled under the LNP since coming to office blow out even further!
Whilst on the other hand Labor's return to provisioning more Fibre and provisioning the SME and Enterprise market with NBN services and replacing copper sooner rather than later would see its revenue base restored somewhat � and the financial market more readily looking at again, investing in the network of the future! instead of the LNP's noodle network to nowhere which pretty much describes their FTTNnnn alternative which frankly no one else is bothering building anywhere on this planet except here in Australia under the turnbull and co's LNP.
As for competition in the market place, well 80Gbps NG-PON2 pretty much puts paid to FTTB and then some � whilst a new NBN National Wifi Network run off its Fibre assets � would also add further revenue's to NBN coffers -
Which of course would piss some off in the marketplace but then its what's in the National interest that best � not what's best for those private market operators in what essentially should be a public utility piece of infrastructure.
why don't Labor proceed to roll out fibre to 93% of premises as per their original plan and therefore save the economy and budget billions in maintenance and continued "infection" costs?
Why don't the LNP?
I think you are just being paranoid and looking at everything through political lenses...
I (and most here) just look at the results. When it hurts the country it is bad, when it helps the country it is good.
When John Howard got rid of the guns, that was good...when the LNP came up with this monstrosity, that was bad.
Don't think so mate. There's a fair amount of Liberal bashing and name calling that goes on here, "luddites" and the rest. In addition there's been ZERO scrutiny of anything Labor has ever done, EVER! ZERO SCRUTINY! EVER!! Even when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions and costs were skyrocketing the consensus here was everything was on time and budget, there were no problems at all, Conroy was still god. But by golly when a leaked NBN report revealed the FTTN roll out might have been delayed by a few thousand premises there was absolute pandemonium.
I'll be the first to admit MTM has become a bit of a farce, fttn capex being the main concern, but Labor are far from clean skins in all of this.
That is actually a Turdbull sandwich...that money and commitment has already been made by the LNP, and cannot reasonably be undone quickly. They have also committed to immediately commissioning a study on how to undo the Turd...
Commissioning a study? lol Why can't it be undone quickly? If HFC and FTTN are soooo bad, isn't time of the essence in getting those problems rectified? Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
The reality is that it will have to be brought back onto budget which of course would see budget deficit which has tripled under the LNP since coming to office blow out even further!
But the Federal Coalition suddenly bringing the NBN onto the budget gives it just the excuse to have an emergency min-budget for emergency savings to protect our credit rating and implement things like massively scaling down the ABC/SBS, deep cuts into welfare, education and family tax benefits and more user pays in health and education. Basically a re-run of the austerity measures it tried on in the failed 2014 Federal Budget.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
If it wasn't for Labor there would be no satellites
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
You are mistaken � Labor will improve the economics of the whole project and reduce the load on the satellite (the opposite of what Turnbull and co have done and will continue to do).
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
They will have 1 more sattelite and potentially look at funding more.
We should be either funding enough sats to give everyone 100mbs or funding more fttp when we can.
They may even put more users on fixed line (fttp or hfc).
Page 19 states greenfields are by fttp � so this reversal is good.
You are mistaken
I take it by your answer the answer to my question is NO, Labor do not give two hoots about sat users.
So no reason at all to vote labor on this issue.
Labor's policy hasn't been shortened at all instead the reality is the existing contracts put in situ by turnbull and co are a commercial reality today!
Fair comment, the ALP still look like making a better fist of this mess. But the uneasy look in Shorten's eyes said "I think I got away with it". You could see he was parroting the old slogan and just managed to pull himself up in time. Luckily for him none of the journos pounced, and he quickly handed over to Clare.
Once or if Labor get back in don't think things are going to move quickly. Once they remove the staff they don't want at NBN co and retool and sign new contracts it will be another 2 years. Anyone in the roll out plan in the next year or so will have to wait another few more years.... Just my guess this will just delay things further.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Melton, 50-60KM from the Melb CBD.
Good demonstration of not knowing Melbourne at all ;) Its 44km by road, Its outer ring, just like exists in the eastern suburbs out past Dandenong and around, but never mind that because its distance from the CBD is completely irrelevant.
Labor are not going to bother as they know project fox was a cherry picked rollout
This is true to a certain extent. It didn't have to deal with a high MDU count. For the rest however, The whole rollout area was 0 � 40 years old for the ducting used, which gives a pretty good indication of a large percentage of the country, and the soil is rock, which is a good test for digging time. That said, they kind of are, because the new rollout techniques relied on do include the techniques used in Melton. This includes those deployments currently being done by NBN Co.
They can not immediately dump FTTN, as said it will take a very long time to implement FTTP.
They did not say that. They said its a sunk cost, and that they are going to engage IA to put together a plan to upgrade from FTTN to FTTP. They don't say it will take a very long time to implement, just that they are not starting by ripping out FTTN.
Whatever happened to Operation Clust**** making HFC bad according to conroy?
You clearly missed the part about sunk costs. Yes HFC is a terrible idea, however NBN Co have already signed the contracts for all the CMTS' from Arris, something that will be almost a billion dollars in sunk costs, and they have signed a $1.6b deal with Telstra for Telstra HFC construction. By my count that puts the total sunk costs into HFC at about $2.5billion, HFC is done. We have no choice but to continue this rollout and replace it when the time is right rather than wasting billions to get out of it.
But no the LNP has to go against a policy just out of spite and refuses to listen to expert advice because they are arrogant enough to think whats best.
If the expert advise is for the government to roll out fttp to 93% of the population, why aren't other countries listening to the experts, and instead rolling out VDSL and HFC faster than FTTP in places like Europe and North America?
Now the ALP has to clean up as much as possible of the disaster the LNP has created.
But they're not, they're just putting a band aid on it. Most Australians will still be stuck with 16th century infrastructure with god awful 100mbps! How will ever cope!
There's a fair amount of Liberal bashing and name calling that goes on here, "luddites" and the rest.
Why do you object to the use of accurate descriptions?
In addition there's been ZERO scrutiny of anything Labor has ever done, EVER!
You are completely wrong.
when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions
When was this?
costs were skyrocketing
When did this happen?
But by golly when a leaked NBN report revealed the FTTN roll out might have been delayed by a few thousand premises there was absolute pandemonium.
The FTTN rollout has been delayed by millions of premises.
Why can't it be undone quickly?
Because you need to gain the facts that nbn� and this government have been keeping secret then understand the nature and extent of the mess we're in before plotting a course out of it.
Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
Turnbull and co have been destroying the project for less than two years (although it's true that they've been trying for a lot longer).
Currently the NBN isn't on budget � however given the disastrous predicament of its revenue base under the LNP and the fact they the LNP are yet to publish a business case to support further investment into their MTM alternative.
A political goal should be to keep it out of the budget. The policy published today, does exactly that. It raises the IRR which is the way to go for the moment. If you slash assets where you invested in, NBN Co drops instantly under the 2.5% which is the wrong approach as it would turn an infrastructural long term investment into expenditure on the budget.
The reality is that it will have to be brought back onto budget which of course would see budget deficit which has tripled under the LNP since coming to office blow out even further!
My point, increase FTTP is the smarter way to go, as it is known to have higher and faster uptake rates then FTTN, delivering faster an economical return in amount.
I spoke in the MTM-thread about the fact that "passed premises" are an expenditure and "active premises" are a revenue source. Shifting to FTTP, maximises the active premises so it is a smart move.
the financial market more readily look at again investing in the network of the future instead of the LNP's noodle network to nowhere which pretty much describes their FTTNnnn alternative.
Indeed, they should attempt to replace slowly over time, the bonds by capital from the public market. The only way they can achieve this, by developing NBN Co into a innovative company, technology wise. Bill Morrow should understand that you can't do this by being technology agnostic. FTTN doesn't fit into to this approach short and long term. HFC doesn't fit in long term.
I take it by your answer the answer to my question is NO
He actually answered it perfectly, which means the answer to your question is YES.
I take it by your answer the answer to my question is NO, Labor do not give two hoots about sat users.
You are wrong � the answer was and is a resounding yes.
So no reason at all to vote labor on this issue.
You're not going to pretend that you were ever going to vote Labor on any issue, are you?
http://bbpmag.com/wordpress2
The FTTH technology just keeps improving.
I understand the issue is the sunk costs on HFC, Clare said it was more than $1b
It most certainly is more than a billion, especially with any poison pill in the Telstra HFC delivery deal. They have already purchased the CMTS' from Arris for $400 million, then there is the modem NTD delivery on top of that to start soon, which would be close to that again. Who knows what kind of cancellation policy the Telstra HFC delivery deal has but it has the potential to be several million. There really is no choice but to continue, but I've been saying that since the Arris deal was originally signed.
the uneasy look in Shorten's eyes said "I think I got away with it".
I think the uneasy look in Shorten's eyes was more to do with him thinking that Clare is way more suited to being PM than he is. Shorten won't last long if he wins. Don't think there will be too many tears if Shorten quietly retires, and Clare or Albanese takes over the reigns well before the 2019 election, should Shorten become PM.
A vote for Labor is a vote for a future Clare or Albanese as PM in my eyes.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits
So lets look at the history here hat92.
Mike Quigley was going to deliver Satellite to 200,000 users and had a policy that provided that where any link in Labor's National network exceeded a 67 percent utilisation limit that these would be then upgraded!
To that end he announced prior to the last election that FTTH would be delivered further and deeper into both the Satellite and Wireless footprints and that this would be done at no additional cost to budget ensuring that the Satellite service was provided to those who live beyond the economic reach of FTTH and further didn't have plans to flog its bandwidth off to the commercial market as we've seen announced under the LNP this year by Qantas and Bill Morrow and further and importantly!
Labor provided redundancy in its network design to ensure that services could continue should sections of the Satellite network fail as is part of the course with this technology something that no longer exists under the LNP model!
The sad facts are that turnbull and co intend to deliver Satellite Services to those in Regional Australia who were previously earmarked for FTTH and that they have extended the Wireless footprint from 3 to 4 percent provides -------a very clear distinction between what Labor's commitment to Regional Australia is with respect to Broadband services.
I might add here that the new 3rd Generation Ka-Band Satellites now being operationalised were, according to turnbull and the LNP ---
An "expensive waste of taxpayers money" and that the "commercial" market had more than enough bandwidth to service Australia's needs!
Which as it turns out was simply drivel and diatribe from turnbull as we all now know � but further, it would be remiss of Labor not to ask what happens to the Satellite service under the LNP if they are re-elected �
Will it simply be flogged off in line with their ideological position of privatisation and further will Regional Australia be left in the backwater broadband network that the commercial operators have traditionally provided under Coalition Governments.
Obviously some questions to put to Jason Clare with respect to Regional Australia and how provisioning FTTH could be used to reduce the capacity demands on the finite resources of the 2 Satellites as is currently the case under the LNP thereby improving the service for existing users � whilst taking those the LNP have duckshoved onto the Satellite service off � and onto FTTH with Queenstown and a few others in Tasmania immediately coming to mind.
Cheers
If the expert advise is for the government to roll out fttp to 93% of the population, why aren't other countries listening to the experts, and instead rolling out VDSL and HFC faster than FTTP in places like Europe and North America?
Please cite your sources.
But they're not, they're just putting a band aid on it.
Are you saying that the MTM is a gaping wound?
NO, Labor do not give two hoots about sat users.
Few questions for you.
Firstly, who said that ordering three satellites was a waste of taxpayers money?
Secondly, which party actually put a policy in place, that arranged those satellites?
You are wrong � the answer was and is a resounding yes.
Well if you make stuff up like you have done it might be yes.
Unfortunately the truth is different
Labor won�t touch existing satellites or fixed wireless technology, which account for about 7 per cent of the rollout
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
As they view the NBN as a platform over which businesses can give and recieve services and not as a Foxtel threatening entertainment system, I think you may be mistaken.
There are downsides.
HFC re-use and support. Already contracted. Telstra execs would be likely to injure themselves laughing if Sorten asked if they want to buy it back.
FTTN (existing). An upgrade path will need to be delveloped. The choice is do it sooner and write down the investment, or do it later and cop the negitive returns, as well as the impacts to other service delivery and economy.
We've had NBN: A New Hope, the MTM Strikes Back, and now Return of the NBN, with another sequel needed in the near future. Fun.
Unfortunately the truth is different
No, it really isn't.
Labor won�t touch existing satellites or fixed wireless technology, which account for about 7 per cent of the rollout
You mean Labor won't touch the existing Labor satellites (which Turnbull said weren't needed) or the Labor fixed wireless technology, nor will they load them up with premises excised from the fixed line footprint as the Coalition have and will.
Lil bit off-topic which I'm sorry for, but why we need to get away from FTTN -
that 3.9 million enterprises (72% of businesses) suffered �up to� 8 Internet outages and 43 hours of downtime each during 2015 and they could have lost productivity worth an estimated �12.3 billion.
also found that the worst hit are smaller businesses, many of which tend to rely on consumer grade broadband connectivity (e.g. ADSL, FTTC etc.) and these suffered double the amount of downtime.
Why do you object to the use of accurate descriptions?
I object when the descriptions aren't accurate, and when they're entirely political and used in a perjorative context.
You are completely wrong.
No I'm not.
When did this happen?
It's been happening since the start
The FTTN rollout has been delayed by millions of premises.
Hahahaha
Because you need to gain the facts that nbn� and this government have been keeping secret then understand the nature and extent of the mess we're in before plotting a course out of it.
Ah yes the old "naughty libs are trying to wreck the nbn" chesnut
Turnbull and co have been destroying the project for less than two years (although it's true that they've been trying for a lot longer).
Hahaahaha
Firstly, who said that ordering three satellites was a waste of taxpayers money?
Secondly, which party actually put a policy in place, that arranged those satellites?
Thirdly, which party said we didn't need the satellites or that private enterprise should do it?
Fourthly, which party wanted to double the number of people on those satellites?
Labor will be stuck with the remains of the LNP stuff-up for the next few years
I suspect it is going to take longer than a few years to fix.
Should Labor get the opportunity to try to mitigate the current mess they should insist that the entire text for nbnTurnbullsMisfeasance be shown an all official documents and marketing materials until the situation is finally rectified � some time in the early 2030s I would expect, when the HFC is finally replaced with FttP.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/why-
but one may wonder why the Labor party will not also pledge to move some of the HFC premises to Fibre to the Premises. Further, why only shift 2 million premises to fibre? That�s because of one word: contracts.
I object when the descriptions aren't accurate, and when they're entirely political and used in a perjorative context.
So you shouldn't object to their use in this thread then.
No I'm not.
If you believe that then you should get reading the forum.
It's been happening since the start
In other words, it didn't happen.
Hahahaha
You find this government's failure funny? I find it revolting, but not unexpected.
Ah yes the old "naughty libs are trying to wreck the nbn" chesnut
It's an undeniable fact.
Ah yes the old "naughty libs are trying to wreck the nbn" chesnut
They aren't trying, they already have.
and here the mud comes
The LNP have nothing.
It's the same time frames, the same cost but their solution provides � the roi.
They need to change to this policy and be done with it.
Might be a bit harder convincing all those potential Copper Gurus from Ireland and wherever to take a risk across the seas to work on the Australian copper now that Labor has announced it's Copper Stopper policy.
With some of Copper Gurus, after reading Labor's NBN policy release today, maybe to start questioning whether the Federal Coalition will also stop the copper sooner rather than later, should it retain power.
You mean Labor won't touch the existing Labor satellites
The ones that are giving us 35GB download limits with no increase in actual coverage, still 3% of premises.
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why would you trust them again.
Labor won�t touch existing satellites or fixed wireless technology, which account for about 7 per cent of the rollout
Policy..,
"The rollout of Labor�s fixed wireless and satellite networks, and fibre-to-the-basement, will also continue. Greenfields will be delivered fibre-to-the-premises"
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why is the current situation their fault?
Who has been in power for 3 years?
The LNP changed it and are to blame.
Without the ALP you wouldn't have those satellites!
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why would you trust them again.
Gotta love you bagging the only party that was willing to launch new satellites in the first place. But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
The ones that are giving us 35GB download limits
The Coalition were in charge when the FUP limit was set.
no increase in actual coverage, still 3% of premises.
That claim doesn't become true by repetition.
But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
I crashed the Car, but it was my dads fault, he bought it..
Few questions for you.
Firstly, who said that ordering three satellites was a waste of taxpayers money?
Secondly, which party actually put a policy in place, that arranged those satellites?
Thirdly, which party doubled the number of users that are to be on satellite?
Gotta love you bagging the only party that was willing to launch new satellites in the first place. But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
Bit like your favorite (insert competition sport here) team wins and then blaming them at the same time for winning.
The LNP changed it and are to blame.
Without the ALP you wouldn't have those satellites!
True especially when you look at the history eg
.
Mike Quigley was going to deliver Satellite to 200,000 users � as provided in NBN's Corporate Plan � under the LNP its now 400,000 and I might add that Mike had a policy that provided that where any link in Labor's National network exceeded a 67 percent utilisation limit that these would be then upgraded!
So essentially if a Satellite Spot beam reached that limit then either Fixed Wireless or FTTH would be deployed into the footprint.
To that end he announced prior to the last election that FTTH would be delivered further and deeper into both the Satellite and Wireless footprints and that this would be done at no additional cost to budget ensuring that the Satellite service was provided to those who live beyond the economic reach of FTTH and further didn't have plans to flog its bandwidth off to the commercial market as we've seen announced under the LNP this year by Qantas and Bill Morrow and further and importantly!
//
Labor provided redundancy in its network design to ensure that services could continue should sections of the Satellite network fail as is part of the course with this technology something that no longer exists under the LNP model!
The sad facts are that turnbull and co intend to deliver Satellite Services to those in Regional Australia who were previously earmarked for FTTH and that they have extended the Wireless footprint from 3 to 4 percent provides -------a very clear distinction between what Labor's commitment to Regional Australia is with respect to Broadband services.
I might add here that the new 3rd Generation Ka-Band Satellites now being operationalised were, according to turnbull and the LNP ---
An "expensive waste of taxpayers money" and that the "commercial" market had more than enough bandwidth to service Australia's needs!
Which as it turns out was simply drivel and diatribe from turnbull as we all now know � but further, it would be remiss of Labor not to ask what happens to the Satellite service under the LNP if they are re-elected �
Will it simply be flogged off in line with their ideological position of privatisation and further will Regional Australia be left in the backwater broadband network that the commercial operators have traditionally provided under Coalition Governments.
Obviously some questions to put to Jason Clare with respect to Regional Australia and how provisioning FTTH could be used to reduce the capacity demands on the finite resources of the 2 Satellites thereby improving the service for existing users �
Whilst taking those the LNP have duckshoved and I might add many still blissfully unaware � onto the Satellite service � off! and onto FTTH with Queenstown and a few others in Tasmania immediately coming to mind
Cheers
https://delimiter.com.au/20
and here the mud comes
Think that mud sticks to nothing really. Poor shot, but I didn't expect anything else from him.
Mark Gregory's take on the ALP-policy:
http://www.theaus
On FTTN:
There�s no turning back of the clock to the full-fibre vision laid out in the original NBN plan, instead Labor is hoping to bury the fibre-to-the-nodes (FTTN) folly for good and provide Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) to an additional two million premises. It may seem limited to those hoping for more dramatic action from Bill Shorten but the policy is fiscally responsible, technically sound and shifts the focus back to providing Australia with a more reliable broadband infrastructure.
I agree.
On HFC:
The decision to continue with the remediation, upgrade and integration of the existing Hybrid Fibre Coax (HFC) networks into the NBN is significant. It may have its detractors and the cable infrastructure may not be in the best condition but decommissioning this asset is simply no longer possible. About 34 per cent of premises will be connected to the NBN using HFC and contracts were signed earlier this year with Telstra for HFC remediation, upgrades and new construction to ensure that customers within the HFC footprint can connect to the NBN and achieve 100/40 Mbps, which remains the target connection speed for the FTTP rollout.
Again I agree. Bold is mine, to illustrate the same conclusion from jxeeno, it is the contracts.
On the revenue, expenditure and IIR:
With FTTP customers expected to connect at higher speed tiers, more fibre means more money for NBN Co�s coffers and that�s the assumption that underpins Labor�s plan to deliver an internal rate of at least 3.9 per cent. It�s a significant improvement over the current internal rate of return that has slumped to between 2.7 and 3 per cent.
Which was the point I made earlier.
Neat rounding up:
The two great myths perpetuated by the Coalition Government, that Labor�s NBN plan will cost $30bn more and will take ten years longer than the Coalition�s NBN plan, can now be set aside for good.
Please note you can access paywalled articles by going to news.google.com.au and searching for the article then opening it there � I use firefox to do this.
Mark Gregory's take on the ALP-policy:
http://www.theaus
There�s no turning back of the clock to the full-fibre vision laid out in the original NBN plan, instead Labor is hoping to bury the fibre-to-the-nodes (FTTN) folly for good and provide Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) to an additional two million premises. It may seem limited to those hoping for more dramatic action from Bill Shorten but the policy is fiscally responsible, technically sound and shifts the focus back to providing Australia with a more reliable broadband infrastructure.
Labor�s new NBN plan may be marginally more expensive but the increased construction cost will be offset by a reduction in the operational cost because FTTP is cheaper to operate and this means that the public equity contribution remains at the current cap of $29.5bn.
With FTTP customers expected to connect at higher speed tiers, more fibre means more money for NBN Co�s coffers and that�s the assumption that underpins Labor�s plan to deliver an internal rate of at least 3.9 per cent
Bit like your favorite (insert competition sport here) team wins and then blaming them at the same time for winning.
He would prefer to get nothing apparently.
Mark Gregory's take on the ALP-policy:
A fiscally and technically responsible infrastructure plan is needed that identifies how to transition premises from FTTN to FTTP and whether the HFC networks should be upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 or replaced with FTTP. Labor has announced that it will commission Infrastructure Australia to carry out this review and to provide a report prior to the 2019 Federal Election that takes into account the views of Australian experts, consumer groups, business and the telecommunications industry.
Obviously here the actual state of the HFC network and those "buried" documents that discuss the existing state of the HFC network will form part of a future "PUBLIC" debate together with an proper examination on just what the costs are with respect to this!
Immediately one suspects that where you don't have overlap and that the Optus HFC exists only then it would be safe to assume that these area's will go FTTH given that Optus has stated they were going to decommission the HFC in 2018 anyway!
Fortunately, it would seem that Labor�s NBN tweaks are not going to be held hostage to another lengthy round of negotiations with Telstra. Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare told The Australian that changes to existing agreements with Telstra would not be necessary and this removes the need for construction to halt or be delayed while a new agreement clears the way for a rapid transition back to FTTP.
Even Telstra would understand that their business interests are best served with respect to provisioning RSP services across a wholesale FTTH network rather than the obsolete copper that turnbull was providing :- and that their future revenue base isn't in the infrastructure royalties and payments but rather in the next generation applications services that they will be able to deliver across a Fibre Optic network.
In addition there's been ZERO scrutiny of anything Labor has ever done
That is just not true...
Even when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions and costs were skyrocketing
When was that?
Why can't it be undone quickly?
The cost of breaking the contracts alone could be tens of billions...
Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
A decade? The commercial build began in March of 2012...but the problems didn't really occur until September 2013.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
They are fixing the rest and getting people off of satellite as a result. This is the most that anyone CAN do...they cannot rewrite the laws of physics.
If the expert advise is for the government to roll out fttp to 93% of the population, why aren't other countries listening to the experts, and instead rolling out VDSL and HFC faster than FTTP in places like Europe and North America?
errr. what? got any links for this claim?
But they're not, they're just putting a band aid on it.
That's about the best that can be done right now mate.
Do you understand how big a project the NBN is? to put it simply, imagine driving a car. What you seem to want is for them to slam the breaks on while going 100km/h down the highway, jump into a different car, then take off in the other direction.
Guess what would happen If you did that? a bloody great wreck is what.
with god awful 100mbps
hmmm...where are you getting this from I wonder?
Gotta love you bagging the only party that was willing to launch new satellites in the first place. But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
This isn't true. Under Howard they planned to roll out FTTN and separate Telstra at minimal cost to the taxpayer, until ACCC stepped outside their remit and decided they were technology consultants.
Lets not forget Rudd based his initial NBN platform on fttn at a cost of four billion. It should have been fttn all the way, from the beginning, it would have been long completed by now and everyone would whinging about their 4G speeds rather than in what decade they will get decent broadband.
The business case for FTTP has always been based on platitudes like "turbo charged digital economy" and "future proof for the rise of super apps!" rather than any substantive or robust analysis.
The two great myths perpetuated by the Coalition Government, that Labor�s NBN plan will cost $30bn more and will take ten years longer than the Coalition�s NBN plan, can now be set aside for good.
It sounds like The Australian now supports the nbn � thanks to hfc being protected.
Yes I'm on the three year plan but late 2018 build.
The intention should be to ramp up FttP as quickly as possible. The revised plan puts the total FttN numbers at ~2.4 million. The current corporate plan is for ~2million to be completed by FY2017.
A rough guess would be no new FttN builds starting after FY2017 (and more likely April 2017).
It will really depend on how the FttP ramp up effects build resources across the industry.
Once or if Labor get back in don't think things are going to move quickly
I don't think anybody does...except the appointment of the commission.
Stopping the momentum of Turnbull's slide will not happen overnight.
Once they remove the staff they don't want at NBN co and retool and sign new contracts it will be another 2 years
Not really...they do not need any "retooling". In fact they could expand the FTTP rollout within a few months...
The intention should be to ramp up FttP as quickly as possible.
Switch back, employ people directly (creating jobs and growth) and go for it!
Get FTTP rolled out asap, increase revenue and then switch fttn/hfc areas where possible.
ACCC stepped outside their remit and decided they were technology consultants.
The ACCC is dysfunctional already since the Howard years when it comes to the Telecommunication portfolio. At least we agree on something. This being dysfunctional includes policy wise, regulatory wise, legally wise, mergers and about everything else. And I know that I am supported by many academics and industry members.
Which brings me to another matter I miss, the revamp of our Telecommunication regulation. None of the parties seem to be interested in it, yet is essential to make NBN into a success. Odd.
Under Howard they planned to roll out FTTN and separate Telstra at minimal cost to the taxpayer, until ACCC stepped outside their remit and decided they were technology consultants.
Please provide a link to support this assertion.
Lets not forget Rudd based his initial NBN platform on fttn at a cost of four billion. It should have been fttn all the way, from the beginning, it would have been long completed by now and everyone would whinging about their 4G speeds rather than in what decade they will get decent broadband.
How on earth did you miss the RFP process and the expert analysis that none of the FTTN proposals offered value for money?
The business case for FTTP has always been based on platitudes like "turbo charged digital economy" and "future proof for the rise of super apps!" rather than any substantive or robust analysis.
Completely false � the business case for FTTP has always been based on economic and technical facts, verified by robust substantive analysis.
It should have been fttn all the way, from the beginning, it would have been long completed by now
It would have been completed 4-7 years ago, and we would now still be going through an FTTP upgrade. The only difference is that the cost would have been far less (because we wouldn't have had to pay for the huge copper repair), and the revenue to date would have been greater.
Lets not forget Rudd based his initial NBN platform on fttn at a cost of four billion
That was not a tested cost, and was not to 93% of the premises in the country...
The business case for FTTP has always been based on platitudes like "turbo charged digital economy" and "future proof for the rise of super apps!" rather than any substantive or robust analysis
No, the business case is based on facts...
1. An economic fact is that each time you double broadband speed, you increase the GDP by 0.3% (just over $5 Billion/year).
2. Another fact is that the most current estimates say that over 600 Million premises around the world will have access to Gigabit internet by 2020...and we live in a global economy. That is the majority of homes on the planet.
They are fixing the rest and getting people off of satellite
Do you really think a couple of thousand people will make a difference? But ironically it will cost a lot of dollars to give people getting sat to give them FTTP. Their budget will be blown if they did.
Why make up these excuses when they are so lame?
Do you really think a couple of thousand people will make a difference?
A couple of thousand? More like a couple of hundred thousand...that is what Labor designed the Sat system for...it was the LNP that doubled it.
Immediately one suspects that where you don't have overlap and that the Optus HFC exists only then it would be safe to assume that these area's will go FTTH given that Optus has stated they were going to decommission the HFC in 2018 anyway!
Which is exactly the situation I am in now with Optus HFC 100/2, minimal peak hour congestion after an HFC upgrade earlier this year, the nearest Telstra HFC approx. 4km as the crow flies, and the NBN HFC build scheduled to commence sometime in the next 6 months, and RFS sometime in the next 6-12 months according to the last NBN Co schedule that found its way into the public arena.
errr. what? got any links for this claim?
Google it. Most FTTP growth is concentrated in Asia, VDSL and HFC in Europe and NA.
That's about the best that can be done right now mate.
Do you understand how big a project the NBN is? to put it simply, imagine driving a car. What you seem to want is for them to slam the breaks on while going 100km/h down the highway, jump into a different car, then take off in the other direction.
Guess what would happen If you did that? a bloody great wreck is what.
Why is it the best that can be done? Gubbermint could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works, and then figure out how much it will cost to upgrade the copper path to fiber, and then sign a bunch of new contracts to see the work done. Given much of the fiber is already laid, and the work force is nearing its peak, surely it would be far more costly to have to come back later and start all over again, so why not strike while the irons hot? It's because deep down, in your heart of hearts, you know FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs and the additional expense of overlaying with fiber is not worth it in the current economic and budget environment.
Why make up these excuses when they are so lame?
Only you can answer why you support the party that is making your connection (and the whole network, and the economy) worse.
FTTN and John Howard.
Make what you think of it.
Telstra made a welcome contribution to our salaries at Fairfax yesterday with $250,000 worth of full-page ads in the major daily newspapers. Ker-ching . . . thanks for that, Sol.
But like many advertising campaigns, the fact of the ads says more than what is in them.
Things must be going badly for Telstra. Yesterday's full-pagers were specifically aimed at the Prime Minister, John Howard, to get him to overrule those absolute bounders at the ACCC on fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) broadband.
Apparently Communications Minister Helen Coonan sort of, kind of, agreed to Telstra's demands two weeks ago, but Australian Competition and Consumer Commission chairman Graeme Samuel reminded her that there is a process of consultation to go through.
Last night, at a black-tie dinner in Hobart, Samuel held up his own advertisement in reply to Telstra's (although he is too stingy to contribute to Fairfax Media's coffers by actually buying space in the papers). It was simply a copy of Telstra's ad with the words "At What Price?" across it in blue.
What a ludicrous, farcical business Australia's progress towards true high-speed broadband has become.
Samuel knows exactly what price Telstra is proposing because he knocked it back, but he can't say what it is because he is bound by confidentiality agreements. Our political representative, Senator Coonan, also knows, but she won't say. Telstra obviously knows, but it won't say until it has bullied someone into agreeing to the price, in private.
Telstra's Phil Burgess mumbled a few weeks ago that it was in the mid-80s that is, around $85 per month per service, wholesale access. He then changed his mind and said the entry price is more like $60.
The competing G9 proposal started at $21 to $24, but that turns out to be the absolute entry level as well, and now they are saying the average is less than half Telstra's price, that is, around $40. Or is it $45?
It is suggested that Telstra's entry level $60 price will only apply to relatively slow speeds. The price of true high-speed broadband using FTTN will actually be around $85 a month wholesale. That means the retail price will be around $100 a month.
Gubbermint could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works
That is what they ARE doing...
Sorry, that is what Labor is promising to do...big difference. ;)
you know FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs
Actually, what I know is that this is absolutely untrue...
Google it.
Thank you for admitting that it was not true.
Gubbermint could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works, and then figure out how much it will cost to upgrade the copper path to fiber, and then sign a bunch of new contracts to see the work done.
You really need to real the policy you're talking about � if you do, you'll see that's exactly what's proposed.
FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs
Why do people like you keep claiming this against all evidence?
Why do people like you keep claiming this against all evidence?
To bollock up any kind of logic.
:0>
Malcolm Turnbull's Second Rate NBN:
https://www.facebook.com
it was the LNP that doubled it.
Why do you make up lies like that?
Everyone knows that even Mike Quigley said 3% of premises.
You lose all credibility when you just make stuff up.
Even when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions
Which targets were missed by millions � or were you simply exaggerating?
and costs were skyrocketing
Which were these? Are you talking about the Strategic Review? Some other financial report from NBNCo which shows costs 'skyrocketing'?
Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
Asking IA to report on how to get to FttP from FttP would be a bit silly wouldn't it?
Do you really think a couple of thousand people will make a difference?
1% is 110,000 (based on 11 million premises).
The original plan was to connect 200,000 � the LNP DOUBLED the number to 400,000.
Google it. Most FTTP growth is concentrated in Asia, VDSL and HFC in Europe and NA.
Right, so fantasy then.
could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works, and then figure out how much it will cost to upgrade the copper path to fiber, and then sign a bunch of new contracts to see the work done.
...so you did read the ALP NBN policy, but want it to be the LNP policy.
FTTN and HFC are fine for
Deep down, in my heart of hearts, I know FTTN and HFC are not suitable for anything except disposing of.
the additional expense of overlaying with fiber
You mean the $56b the LNP govt is spending? or the ~$1b the ALP wants to spend to fix what they can?
in your heart of hearts, you know FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs and the additional expense of overlaying with fiber is not worth it in the current economic and budget environment.
The big question for you is, do you actually believe we should be spending billions and many years on something that only fills current needs?
If you do then, then you are pretty much saying we we should only build roads that is just enough capacity for the amount of cars today.. which is absolutely absurd.
In announcing a policy to ditch Malcolm Turnbull's favoured method of broadband delivery entirely, Labor has made a political decision that will play well with large portions of the electorate, who have never been sold on the idea that his decision to pursue fibre to the node (FTTN) was technically or financially prudent.
this is a bold move that hits the government (and particularly the Prime Minister) in a notable weak spot.
However those that have been connected to FTTN already, or who have missed out on the NBN so far in relevant areas, will be back on the path to FTTP under Labor.
Labor's new plan would however put it in direct contradiction with the man currently charged with running the show, former Vodafone Australia boss Bill Morrow.
selling its message will be a big challenge for opposition spokesman for communications Jason Clare, as FTTN Vs FTTP cannot be summed up in a TV news-friendly soundbite.
Well Mr Smith, how about your masthead's owners (Fairfax) help sell the message a wee bit more thoroughly and repeatedly, than from the last Federal election to today.
Still no editorial or opinion in this article about whether the labor policy is more in the national interest than the Federal Coalitions.
Labors FTTH was previously fully costed a point made here refuting the lies provided to you by turnbull entirely!
You just made me spill my tea.
The ALP FttH was not fully costed at all! They had no direct plan for multi dwelling apartment complexes at all.
They had no direct plan for connecting multi tenanted business parks and locations.
To say that the ALP was fully costed then is as much laughable as their $57 billion cap is now!
Fixed that for you.
Hahaha! Thank you.
Google it. Most FTTP growth is concentrated in Asia, VDSL and HFC in Europe and NA.
I guess your not using google correctly then.
http://www.fiercetelecom.com
Why do you make up lies like that?
The Sat system was originally designed to accommodate around 200,000 premises...the LNP expanded that to 400,000.
An apology would be nice...
You're welcome.
It is suggested that Telstra's entry level $60 price will only apply to relatively slow speeds. The price of true high-speed broadband using FTTN will actually be around $85 a month wholesale. That means the retail price will be around $100 a month.
Thanks for that 2007 article Shane.
Today, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
The original plan was to connect 200,000
More lies?
It was 3%. Always was 3% and still is 3%.
It must be a hard sell when you have to tell lies to make up your argument.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
The ability to deliver
leading to
Economy of scale
The ability to deliver
leading to
Economy of scale
That's just as vague as Labor's policy.
More lies?
https://delimiter.com.au/201
In fact Turnbull commented on Labor's plan...
In 2012, when he was Shadow Communications Minister, Malcolm Turnbull said: �There is enough capacity on private satellites already in orbit or scheduled for launch for the NBN to deliver broadband to the 200,000 or so premises in remote Australia without building its own.�
Now go read page 9...
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
I see you've moved on from asking for Labor's policy details.
Since this point appears to be of importance to you, what are the Coalition's plans for gigabit services?
The ability to deliver
Based on how the NBN started, then this is the "theory" behind the ability to deliver vs the actual ability to deliver...?
Again, having a paper on what they want to achieve to win an election is one thing. Actually committing to and successfully putting a paper plan into action is another.
Today, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre. Given the option to pay a fraction of this at the same speed or a similar price for gigabit, I would probably get something in the middle.
Thirdly, which party doubled the number of users that are to be on satellite?
Well to be honest this may actually turn out to be a bad underestimation of the demand on the part of NBNCo in initially.
The number of users covered hasn't changed significantly (AIUI), however, the expected number of users taking up a service has increased dramatically. I seem to recall that the second satellite was primarily there as a backup for the first. If this is the case the problem may not be as bad as feared because the second can be used for additional capacity rather than simply backup (until / unless one fails)
It remains to be seen exactly how the satellite situation plays out. The ISS oversupply issues led to the implementation of the new limits being set for satellite users. It may be that the initial demand profiling is actually correct and this would mean increased limits on the satellite service.
I see you've moved on from asking for Labor's policy details.
I'm happy that they released their policy today. Congratulations to Labor for stepping up to the plate.
Since this point appears to be of importance to you, what are the Coalition's plans for gigabit services?
It can't reduce much because the NBN Co has to make a return. I would prefer that the NBN be reduced in scope or that it be subsidised by the taxpayer to make broadband more affordable in the long term, but no party wants to do that.
Overall Labor has released a pragmatic, fiscally responsible and sensible plan that should be supported.
Those left with substandard broadband in the short term can only blame Turnbull and the Coalition.
I agree, at least it's a start and includes a means to get back on track long term.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
I agree...and that (in my mind) will be a priority over the next year or 2.
That said, their deployment plan is excellent and is probably the only way to get out of the horrific position that Turnbull has put us in...
We certainly need affordable gigabit internet by 2020...
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
Today, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN.
LOL, so 6Mbps and 1000Mbps are equivalent in your mind?
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
The Coalition still hasn't detailed any plan fullstop.
To that end he announced prior to the last election that FTTH would be delivered further and deeper into both the Satellite and Wireless footprints and that this would be done at no additional cost to budget ensuring that the Satellite service was provided to those who live beyond the economic reach of FTTH
That is hard to believe since they could not even deliver FTTH to metro areas on time, delivering FTTH to remote areas was not believable.
Labor is not even spruiking rolling FTTH to remote areas in this election.
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre. Given the option to pay a fraction of this at the same speed or a similar price for gigabit, I would probably get something in the midd
Business connections whom need agreements in place are different to residential users.
Your business likely has a special Businsss type connection where certain SLA' s are to be delivered.
If someone really wants a guaranteed 100MBps at any time of the day under nbn then they would need to fork out $1,750 a month.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
Paying more of course...hell, inflation alone will take its toll in that. But there is also the expectation that over time, more people will use broadband. This is certainly proving true as even the elderly are increasing internet usage at a huge rate.
It must be a hard sell when you have to tell lies to make up your argument.
I'm glad you finally acknowledge that's what you're doing.
More ppl are probably watching TV and on news sites on the internet to catch up with info on the Orlando shooting. Whilst they're watching they'll see the Labor NBN policy news.
No, think of it this way. Bill Shorten is on QandA tonight and knows it's the question the audience has been asking.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Business connections whom need agreements in place are different to residential users
But those agreements (while still important to some) are much less important with a network that doesn't break all the time and has a far more predictable throughput rate.
oday, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN.
Incorrect, it costs A$ 17.50 x 1000 = A$ 17,500 wholesale to get 1Gbs on the NBN.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
No party has an answer to that, as the revenue of NBN Co is heavily based on CVC revenue. CVC as we all know is a financial instrument and not a technical instrument. In fact it totally doesn't make any sense for innovative purposes to restrict bandwidth on media that is by nature "unlimited" in bandwidth. That why it is not done anywhere overseas in FTTP roll outs.
But sadly the politicians and NBN Co have not progressed to that higher level of thinking.
Actually committing to and successfully putting a paper plan into action is another.
The ALP were doing that until September 2013. By contrast, the Coalition have failed to fulfil any of the promises of their 2013 broadband policy.
The Coalition still hasn't detailed any plan fullstop.
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
No one is going to pay that much
LOL, you quote someone saying they pay that much then claim that no one is going to pay that much?
fibre-to-the-basement,
Ok, so previously MDUs were in the FTTP footprint under previous policy. Now they are not. Makes sense, though upgrade path for body corp to remediate work to upgrade to FTTP themselves I would hope be in the longer term plans.
LOL, you quote someone saying they pay that much then claim that no one is going to pay that much?
Yes, because people don't have a spare $1500 lying around under their bed.
you quote someone saying they pay that much then claim that no one is going to pay that much?
Ah Irony, thy name is KingForce? :)
https://delimiter.com.au/201
what are the Coalition's plans for gigabit services?
Spend the winter months in another country in the Northern Hemisphere that has GB speeds?
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
Wow, that rivals your backflip about fraudulent RFS the other day, less than half an hour from acknowledging the existence of the ALP policy to pretending it doesn't exist.
Yes, because people don't have a spare $1500 lying around under their bed.
Yet Raoul claims people should pay $10,000 for FOD if they want better than the MTM disaster can provide...
But sadly the politicians and NBN Co have not progressed to that higher level of thinking.
Ever since new age economics calls for not only user pays but super quick repayment of debt we have this ridiculous situation that goods and services are priced out of our reach. They say infrastructure debt is wrong � and that's what's causing the financial crisis everywhere (the German austerity model).
Japan has the right idea (as floated at the G7) � Governments should be spending more on infrastructure to stimulate the economy, increase consumer confidence and get consumers spending. Not much point in spending on high speed internet when we can't afford genuine high speed � just a service inferior to what we already have in lots of ways!
If built has already started then you're stuck with FTTN
But what if the build has not started if your area and there is absolutely no NBN physical activity in your area? In my area (Whyalla) back in September 2013 when the Coalition came to power, NBNCo was to start the planning process of FTTP for Whyalla in March of 2014. But the Liberals had no problem cancelling Whyalla along with half the country of the FTTP build.
Could this not also apply now to areas that are earmarked to get FTTN now/near future but with no physical activity in your area, no build contracts would have been signed off yet. My understanding under Labor's old FTTP all the planning/pre-build activity had to be completed first, then the actual build contracts are issued/signed off last. That's how Turnbull was able to cancel all those planned/up coming FTTP builds. Could Labor not do the same here if they win office???
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
What's next in your conga line of logic?
No plans, no money, no value.
No point.
Apart from a writedown of the NBN ASAP, what do you think the Government of the day should do with NBN Co and the NBN/MTM from here (Kingforce)?
The ALP were doing that until September 2013
No they weren't.
They were failing dismally. The plan on paper was wonderful. The execution of the plan was appalling.
The end result was Malcolm reinventing the policy poorly when the LNP came to power.
If the plan had started well, the execution of the plan went well, the LNP would have had no alternative but to continue.
But because the plan went balls up very quickly, it gave rise to an alternative.
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
They got plans plenty, but nobody is capable of stepping up to the plate and see the complete picture.
Now I understand from political perspective, winning the voters, the total picture is rather overwhelming and not really a way to get the vote. But as parties you should have a clear Telecommunication policy. That is not coming forward. That is scary, I agree and not good for Australia.
The sad thing is that NBN Co is unable to deliver commercial world results until the Telecommunication policies and regulations are revamped completely.
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
It will be too early to tell for sure. If you aren't on the 3 year rollout plan you should be ok though.
Merimbula is due to start in H1 2017, with delays I hope no plans have been signed off on, assuming people vote the right way of course.
That's just as vague as Labor's policy.
Nothing vague about deploying access technologies that can actually deliver the speeds which you're referring to.
fraudulent RFS the other day,
Today, on the Coalition's NBN, there are about 40,000 are on a service class zero or an equivalent. That about 2.6% of the fixed line footprint.
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
In September 2013 one third of fibre premises could not order a service from Labor's NBN.
The execution of the plan was appalling.
How so � apart from being nobbled by the LNP ,the plan you are referring to has delivered all the FTTP connections which exist today, has seen the launch of the satellite and fixed wireless services and last, but not least, saw the building of the transit network, POI, FAN, etc...
Now compare that to the LNP who have manged to connect a few tens of thousands to their copper based mess.
But what if the build has not started if your area and there is absolutely no NBN physical activity in your area?
If they have purchased hardware (nodes, fibre cable specific to FTTN � all of which have to be ordered well in advance) they you are locked in.... and FTTN for you.
If they have signed contracts with firms to install FTTN � even if they haven't started � that would cost big money to get out of those contracts � FTTN for you as well.
No one is going to pay that much
And yet businesses do today � you can't deny facts...
It will be too early to tell for sure. If you aren't on the 3 year rollout plan you should be ok though
Actually, anything that won't go RFS in the next 2 years should be okay (it takes about 18 months or just over to go from issuing design instructions to being RFS).
And they could make FTTN workable in the meantime by specifying 10GigE for the back haul for existing builds.
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
I assume, generally speaking, you don't already have FTTN and are not in an area where that is starting soon and you're not in a HFC area.
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
So why are they choosing not to � cue deadening silence....
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
Check out results from real people in Cannington and Doubleview (two of the first "production" areas for FTTN) � the number who can't get connected although sites tell them they can is huge.
Just like politicians claim you are fully employed if you work 20 hours a week.... they also fiddle the NBN stats to their own end (the LNP seem better at twisting stats than Labor � but both can be good when convenient).
By contrast, the Coalition have failed to fulfil any of the promises of their 2013 broadband policy.
Not according to Turnbull on the radio just now. He was spewing lies about how bad this new ALP plan is and how good his MTM is and they have met or exceeded all their goals.
Turnbull conveniently failed to mention that he changed the goal posts so the goals could be met, otherwise his MTM train wreck would be seen as the dismal failure that it is...
Ever since new age economics
Odd isn't?
Politicians all talk innovation, yet they are unable to formulate a complete policy over one (or many portfolio's) which actually contributes to being innovative. The talking about it, but it is only limited to talking about it as a definition. Yet to see the contributing factors that lead to innovation, they are unable to define.
No they weren't.
Yes they were.
They were failing dismally.
Not according to any credible analysis.
The execution of the plan was appalling.
According to...?
If the plan had started well, the execution of the plan went well, the LNP would have had no alternative but to continue.
The LNP plan was based on lies, both about their policy and about the NBN � the reality of the rollout had nothing to do with it.
Why do you make up lies like that?
Whose lieing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
Mike Quigley said the satellite design was "not easy", because the required coverage is about "five per cent of the world's land mass" containing "at least 200,000 premises" spread across "over 7,000 kilometres" of area between Cocos Islands and Norfolk Island
You owe that user an apology!
They were failing dismally.
They really weren't...nor were they succeeding heroically. They were exactly where they should have been, in the startup phase of a massive decade long project to rebuild the nations communications.
Today, on the Coalition's NBN, there are about 40,000 are on a service class zero or an equivalent.
Isn't it amazing that not bothering to rollout FTTP will stop people being put in a status where they're not yet able to order a FTTP service?
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
Please cite your sources.
In September 2013 one third of fibre premises could not order a service from Labor's NBN.
Any other old myths you want to bring out?
But because the plan went balls up very quickly, it gave rise to an alternative.
To follow your line of thinking, what was the alternative?
Wrecking the NBN? The MTM-policy? Or was it simply about serving vested interests?
Please cite your sources.
In the weekly report on NBN Co's website. Been there for ages.
Different from when Labor was in charge. They only reported official stats every three months.
Different from when Labor was in charge. They only reported official stats every three months.
What do you think about the fact the LNP are now reporting once a year?
In the weekly report on NBN Co's website.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious � I'm after credible sources.
Different from Labor which only reported official stats every three months.
I'm sure you're aware that nbn� don't want to report anything at all, including rollout maps and lists.
Wrecking the NBN?
Yes. Exactly that. The policy was failing in the cost estimate. And we all know costs are more of a political football than anything else.
Because the ALP math was wildly wrong in their assessments, the next govt had an easy political alternative. That alternative was "we will spend less cash".
I'm after credible sources.
Those figures match with what Morrow said at estimates. NBN Co would be lying to parliament if those figures were wrong.
on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
LOL � tell that to the people waiting to be serviced from this node � https://delimiter.com.au/2016
and all the opthers like it where the node is not even powered up yet.
They were exactly where they should have been, in the startup phase of a massive decade long project to rebuild the nations communications.
Three months behind schedule on average. If NBN Co at that time said they would enable in January, we planned on April. Mostly we were spot on and were able to do a pre and post marketing campaign within 30 days over each other when an area was activated.
Those figures match with what Morrow said at estimates.
Again, I'm after credible sources.
NBN Co would be lying to parliament if those figures were wrong.
Wow, what a shock that would be.
lying to parliament if those figures were wrong
Something we all agree on � NBN not telling the truth and the whole truth to parliament.
That alternative was "we will spend less cash".
Which went out the window for something that is diabolically worse.
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
In September 2013 one third of fibre premises could not order a service from Labor's NBN.
I consider that there are pros and cons to both approach. While Coalition wants everyone in RFS to connect, I'd argue it slows down the overall national rollout and reduces revenue opportunities. Labor approach got coverage out nationally faster to early adopters and higher revenue in particular, arguably cheaper, but didn't adequately address the hard 20% in the 18 months. If we didn't have the Telstra constraint again, I'd tend to argue the Labor/NZ approach is superior for a national rollout.
The policy was failing in the cost estimate.
According to...?
Because the ALP math was wildly wrong in their assessments, the next govt had an easy political alternative. That alternative was "we will spend less cash".
If that was their alternative, why did they choose to lie instead?
the next govt had an easy political alternative. That alternative was "we will spend less cash"
And failed at that to � 29.5 Billion was the total they took to the 2013 election. Seems that it is okay for the LNP to just make shit up and at the same time Labor must be held to the highest level of accountability and scrutiny. Or to put it another way, one party lies and the other tells the truth?
Yes. Exactly that.
Do I get you right, that you blame Labor for the fact that the Liberals wrecked the NBN?
This would be new low if that is actually what you mean.
From the Harper Review: good government policy is to benefit all Australians.
Please explain to me, why is wrecking the NBN, good government policy?
Or do we agree that it is actually not policy at all but simply serving vested interests towards certain parties?
The ones that are giving us 35GB download limits with no increase in actual coverage, still 3% of premises.
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why would you trust them again.
When the alternative is LNP � There is sufficient Sat bandwidth existing. No need for anothe sat. 12Mbps is all anyone needs. � MT
Labor came up with the NBN Sat service. Extended the fixed line FTTP footprint to 93%
LNP did not publish the increased Sat utilisation, but added many towns and said the total was unchanged. Still using Eleventy's calculator
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
At least on the Labors plan, gigabit is technically possible. 4 gigabit is technically possible on Labors FTTP plan.
Libs plan it is impossible, without doing another rollout, costing how many more billions? And still won't be the fibre we inevitably need in the future.
And failed at that to � 29.5 Billion was the total they took to the 2013 election. Seems that it is okay for the LNP to just make shit up and at the same time Labor must be held to the highest level of accountability and scrutiny. Or to put it another way, one party lies and the other tells the truth?
No. Both parties lie. One is detrimental to the countries interests, the other is mediocre and union-driven...
I see Fifield has attempted to play the "deceit" card, and not allowed his "critique" of Labor's plan to be called into question... by cutting off the journalists. Hopefully this policy will give a good swing against the "Noambition" party.
What do you think about the fact the LNP are now reporting once a year?
It's worse than that � they don't want to publish the reports at all, instead they only want to provide them to RSPs (who are controlled by gag orders).
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
We have clients paying more than that for under 10Mbps, I guarantee they would love to pay less for more, as would everyone.
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre
The irony of this should not be lost on us all � remember the cost of broadband every time the LNP says that they are the party for small business.
It's worse than that � they don't want to publish the reports at all, instead they only want to provide them to RSPs (who are controlled by gag orders).
NBNco has gone mafia style.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
Actually it relies on people paying more for higher speeds and larger data quotas. As network speeds increase AVC prices fall and as network data usage increases CVC prices fall.
Actually it relies on people paying more for higher speeds and larger data quotas. As network speeds increase AVC prices fall and as network data usage increases CVC prices fall.
Yep � I don't think KIngForce understood this when I said economy of scale either...
The Sat system was originally designed to accommodate around 200,000 premises...the LNP expanded that to 400,000.
We've had this one before but let's do it again ...
Fifield says ...
nbn's high-capacity satellites will ultimately cover more than 400,000 homes ...
http://www.minister.com
The NBNCo corporate plan 2010 on page 77 says ...
Serve the remaining 7% of premises (1 million) by next generation wireless and satellite technologies, including developing a Satellite First Release solution.
... simple arithmetic will tell you that's ~428,000 covered by satellite.
You're welcome.
Extended the fixed line FTTP footprint to 93%
I just saw that stated on the news, but Labor now says that is not possible to do 93% and can only do 39%.
Why is that?
Did they have their digits messed up?
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
If construction is not planned to start prior to FY2017 you will likely get FttP if Labor are elected. There are no guarantees though.
I just saw that stated on the news,
They state a lot ... the news.
On twitter it was mentioned that a reporter of Sydney 702 stated today that FTTH will shift electricity costs onto home owners. You got some bright lights working in our media industry.
On twitter it was mentioned that a reporter of Sydney 702 stated today that FTTH will shift electricity costs onto home owners
I'm waiting for the bright spark to claim that Fibre is hollow and therefore will cause our homes to flood...
If they have purchased hardware (nodes, fibre cable specific to FTTN � all of which have to be ordered well in advance) they you are locked in.... and FTTN for you.
If they have signed contracts with firms to install FTTN � even if they haven't started � that would cost big money to get out of those contracts � FTTN for you as well.
But wouldn't that also have applied to FTTP under Labor in September 2013?? Hardware/fibre cables etc all specific to FTTP and ordered well in advance for builds to start/plan within 12 months of the Liberals taking office in September 2013. Yet they (Turnbull) killed off everything FTTP related except areas that had actually physically started.
I remember here on Whirlpool back in September 2013 and just after the election just about everyone here was saying that FTTP builds planned in the next 12 months would be safe, and even 3 year planned builds had a fair chance of being safe. Yet Turnbull canned all FTTP builds that weren't "chained down" or had physically started.
On twitter it was mentioned that a reporter of Sydney 702 stated today that FTTH will shift electricity costs onto home owners. You got some bright lights working in our media industry.
LOL oh dear.
You have to wonder what VDSL modems run on?
Kerosene or paraffin, Vodka or magic.
:0>
LOL oh dear.
You have to wonder what VDSL modems run on?
Kerosene or paraffin, Vodka or magic.
Unfortunately for the aging population that only uses their phone, this appears to be true. Under FTTP � they see an NTD which needs to be plugged into their own power. Currently, their phone is generally powered by the network. They don't understand what FTTN means...
If construction is not planned to start prior to FY2017 you will likely get FttP if Labor are elected. There are no guarantees though.
I'm in an area where construction won't start until then but have Telstra HFC. I gather that this Labor mention of FttP will likely be for areas without HFC. I'd sort of read some conflicting stuff paraphrasing as "if you were going to get HFC that won't change". Is that everyone's understanding as well?
... simple arithmetic will tell you that's ~428,000 covered by satellite.
I thought that satellite was originally intended for around 3% of premises.
Since around 9 million premises were intended to be covered, that would be about 270,000 premises.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
Have the Libs? Why is the onus only on Labor?
Have the Libs? Why is the onus only on Labor?
The best way to make gigabit available is to make fibre available.
They were failing dismally. The plan on paper was wonderful. The execution of the plan was appalling.
Have you asked yourself why this happened? Lets ignore the asbestos delay (it would have been managed � at Telstras cost).
Consider the political climate at the time. This was definitely a factor in the deployment delays that are down to the prime contractors.
It has been said that the rollout rate proposed under the original plan were not achievable.
Consider this � on the 16/07/15 the rolling quarterly (13 week) weekly average for brownfield FttP peaked at 12267. This was ~45% of the required run rate forecast to be reach by the 2012 CP in FY2015. In a rollout where the focus had shifted almost entirely to FttN and HFC.
Edit: It could have been done but never got the chance.
I just saw that stated on the news, but Labor now says that is not possible to do 93% and can only do 39%.
Are you new here?
Is your question serious?
The LNP signed contracts for the HFC networks and fttn has already been built/there are contracts signed for this as well.
Instead of the original 93%, it's now (about):
20% FTTN
34% HFC
39% FTTP
7% fixed wireless/satellites
damn chose a good day to be really busy..
refresh and 10 pages to read sigh
Since around 9 million premises were intended to be covered, that would be about 270,000 premises.
I quoted from the 2010 corporate plan. I'll do it again, from Exhibit 1-7 on page 33 under "coverage" ...
13 million premises covered by FY2021, 93% by the Fibre Network (12 million), 7% by the Wireless Network or the Satellite Network.
The NBNCo says 13 million premises. I don't know where you get 9 million from. I'll take the NBNCo's number over yours.
Are you new here?
Is your question serious?
Go easy on the poster, ABC news reporter completely ballsed up his summary of the 39% by describing it as though Federal Labor was only going to cover 39% of the whole of Australia with NBN Services, when he should have tied in the 39% with the increased from up to 20% FTTP % of the MTM mix.
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre
Please keep in mind, I only brought this up to put into context that business will pay a premium where it is required for the operation of the business and because I think the revenue potential here is not discussed much in the public forums. By no means is this a comparison to NBN consumer services, this has a 99.99% uptime SLA and 1:1 contention. Three years ago, when this service was unavailable, we paid the same for 10/10. In three years time it should be 1000/1000. That won't happen with the MTM.
I believe in equity, I'm ok wih waiting while those under serviced get fibre, just get us all there eventually or a valid alternative.
Why is that?
Basically, Labor's original plan (of 93% FTTP � from back when they were in govt) is no longer possible due to the MTM rollout progress, so what they're doing is increasing the FTTP footprint � as it stands it's going to about about 19%, they want to increase it to 39%.
Meaning more people will have delicious fiber and proper bowel movements.
simple arithmetic will tell you that's ~428,000 covered by satellite
The issue is the expected take-up. Under the original Corporate Plan FW and sat are lumped together and takeup was expected to be very low (around 13% in FY2015 to ~24% in FY2021)
FW takeup is currently ~29%, and expected demand for the LTSS is expected to be much higher than initially forecast.
The issue is the expected take-up.
The figure for take up in the 2010 corporate plan was 200,000 (page 71). I think this is the number people are wrongly using as the number of premises covered.
The 2015 corporate plan (section 5.3) has a satellite take up figure for 2018 of 135,000. I don't know if there's a later figure.
I'm in an area where construction won't start until then but have Telstra HFC.
You are almost certainly going to get HFC judging by the policy release.
In fact Turnbull commented on Labor's plan...
Good for him.
Are you trying to say Labor were only going to cover 1.5% with satellite now. And the other 1.5% were going to get nothing from the NBN.
You see you can find even NBN co documents saying the satellites were 3% coverage. which is just around 400 000 premises. http://www.nbnco.com.au/conte
You seem to be saying the coalition were much more honest over the NBN. So why would anyone believe any Labor policy.
The figure for take up in the 2010 corporate plan was 200,000 (page 71)
The 200000 figure is more about the maximum capacity being planned for, rather than expected takeup.
The NSAS will deliver at least 12Mbps peak download speed, and an ABHT of 300Kbps, for up to 200,000 users. To meet this requirement, NBN Co will need to launch two 80Gbps Ka-Band (60Gbps forward path and 20Gbps return path) satellites, supported by a network of 10 � 15 transmitting and receiving stations known as Gateways.
The 2012 CP shows an estimated 232000 premises connected to FW and Sat by FY2021. There are already ~112000 FW active connections.
It was seriously underestimated.
You see you can find even NBN co documents saying the satellites were 3% coverage. which is just around 400 000 premises.
Surely you realise that 3% is not a precise figure, and that the actual figure can vary by 120,000 premises while still being considered 3% of premises, right?
You seem to be saying the coalition were much more honest over the NBN.
LOL, they honestly lied all the time and still do.
Election looms closer.. Labors NBN policy has been released...
Liberals release their trolls into the world.
It was seriously underestimated.
Quite possibly. But the Coalition figure for satellite coverage is 400,000, the same as it was under Labor. Unless we are now expecting 100% take up the claim that "The Sat system was originally designed to accommodate around 200,000 premises...the LNP expanded that to 400,000." is simply incorrect.
Not really...they do not need any "retooling".
Yes they do. They'll need to get rid of some of the tools, like the NBN Board, Morrow, and other nbn� stooges, etc. Or is that untooling?
Liberals release their trolls into the world.
They don't have a fully costed policy either!
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
No-one in the coalition has any plans and that's the scary part.
Actually the coalition is the scary part.
Looks like some of the boys are going to miss out on all that extra wholesome goodness fibre NBN workers are going to experience under any change of Government after the upcoming Federal Election.
Labor sources said the party has little faith in many of the "lackeys" Mr Turnbull brought into the organisation.
Mr Clare in the past blasted the appointment of NBN chairman Ziggy Switkowski, board member Justin Milne and senior executive JB Rousselot as "jobs for the boys".
Actually the coalition is the scary part.
They turned back the fibre.
Now it's Federal Labor's TIME to turn back the nodes and copper.
Mr Clare in the past blasted the appointment of NBN chairman Ziggy Switkowski, board member Justin Milne and senior executive JB Rousselot as "jobs for the boys".
Not to mention they directly profited from having nbnco buy back the copper network and signed contracts for the ongoing maintenance of said copper network while holding a significant amount of telstra shares.
Election looms closer.. Labors NBN policy has been released...
Liberals release their trolls into the world.
Ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!
The coalition will poo poo Labor's policy without releasing their own.
I guess we're waiting for it to download. LOL
The coalition will ..... Labor's policy without releasing their own.
I'm surprised that the Federal Coalition are taking any new policies to the the election.
Far less effort to just tell everyone how you've met or are on the way to meeting all your goals and targets.
Then discretely disperse a few porkies and pork barrels to marginal seats.
Like the fixed line little bad piggy that got catapulted over to the West Coast of Tasmania last week, and today's Townsville non-digital sporting content distribution system upgrade where those unable to stream their footy in 4/8K or virtual reality in/to the premise will no longer have to try and rely on a digital sporting experience, and will be forced off their bums to a shared sporting service centre (new stadium).
Election looms closer.. Labors NBN policy has been released...
Liberals release their trolls into the world.
In was inevitable. As soon as the policy was released, bam, whirlpool flooded. The usual suspects and then some.
How so?
To start with, it was totally uncosted.
They (the ALP) put a picked-from-the-air figure of $43 billion to build.
You could easily be talking about Turnbull there, some of his own party used similar language.
I agree. One simply off set the other.
The NBN has been more about chest beating than seriously providing a fully fibre based network solution to most parts of the country.
To start with, it was totally uncosted.
They (the ALP) put a picked-from-the-air figure of $43 billion to build.
Please substantiate that claim.
To start with, it was totally uncosted.
Nonsense.
They (the ALP) put a picked-from-the-air figure of $43 billion to build.
And four years later it was $45.6bn. Capex was pretty constant. Total funding increased due to roll out delays.
Compare that to the staggering blowout in Turnbull's costs.
hey (the ALP) put a picked-from-the-air figure of $43 billion to build.
That's rubbish. No one can "pluck a figure out of the air" and come up with a figure of $43 billion.
And, ALL projects start off with something sketched on a piece of paper. It makes for great politics, but shows a complete ignorance of the development process!
Election looms closer.. Labors NBN policy has been released...
Liberals release their trolls into the world.
The lengths they go to so they can protect their fraud. But then again their quality of trolling matches the quality of our internet.
Bleeding crap.
:0>
HOW DIFFICULT IS IT FOR NBN CO TO SWITCH TECHNOLOGIES?
Rod Tucker from the University of Melbourne believes it would be little trouble for NBN Co to switch back to a fibre-to-the-premises model.
�There is still the design and technical expertise within the company for carrying out fibre-to-the-premises installations,� he said. �There are plenty of those people around still � I don�t think it would be that much of a disruption.�
Mr Tucker also pointed to Labor�s commitment to honour all existing contracts as a way to ensure a smooth transition.
�For instance, where I�m living, I know the design stages are under way for my particular town. There�s been no work done yet but I guess under this plan obviously there�s a contract in place and that will continue with fibre to the node.�
Ok so for area's/towns still under "Build Prep" its pretty much locked in for FTTN regardless unless they for example find the copper network is in such a bad state and the only option sensible is FTTP instead
its pretty much locked in for FTTN regardless unless they for example find the copper network is in such a bad state and the only option sensible is FTTP instead
I predict that they'll be more than 39% FTTP as more and more FTTN areas are found to have too many issues with the copper.
They (the ALP) put a picked-from-the-air figure of $43 billion to build.
As opposed to the Coalition's $29.5 Billion figure that Turnbull waved about the House of Representatives?
*Facepalm*
And four years later it was $45.6bn. Capex was pretty constant. Total funding increased due to roll out delays.
Not entirely, you remember that the FTTP coverage increased from 90% to 93% and they also moved to build drops instead of demand drops.
Demand drops was expected to increase capex (and consequently peak funding) but also increase revenues and therefore a prudent measure.
This is why using the peak funding figure is a bull$hit measure, and I have said this for a while. It is no way to compare the two policies.
We have seen why in the recent budget, the MTM peak funding allegedly is lower but due to the use of obsolete access technologies and the need for upgrades it will struggle to raise the private debt.
The majority FTTP policy may have had a higher peak funding, but it had nearly the same government equity contribution but had a much greater capacity to raise private debt.
Does it really matter if the peak funding is higher if the same policy was better able to raise the additional debt?
I predict that they'll be more than 39% FTTP as more and more FTTN areas are found to have too many issues with the copper.
if the SoE requires NBN Co to take into account the TCO then this is almost certain.
So it seems that Labor will keep HFC with the view to upgrade it in the future, while building FTTP just about everywhere else. My question is of the ~20% FTTN how much of that is currently under construction?
I think the original Labor policy could have been improved using FttB with an upgrade path to FTTP, to speed up the rollout and get a lot more return sooner on the NBN.
Then again politics and those with no knowledge of how the techonology works got in the way suggesting wireless in 2010 and then FTTN in 2013. I often wonder if a conscience vote on the FTTP NBN was offered how many coalition members actually supported it. I think quite a few would have but Abbotts desire to make it a political issue got in the way. Certainly polls showed it was popular with coalition voters and independents and other parties all supported it.
Not entirely, you remember that the FTTP coverage increased from 90% to 93% and they also moved to build drops instead of demand drops.
The increase in FTTP coverage happened in the implementation study when the funding estimate was $42.8bn. Exhibit 16-6 in the 2013 corporate plan showed no change in capex from 2012, still $37.4bn.
This is why using the peak funding figure is a bull$hit measure, and I have said this for a while. It is no way to compare the two policies.
Total funding is what it costs to build. Capex is just part of the story.
Does it really matter if the peak funding is higher if the same policy was better able to raise the additional debt?
What matters is the NBNCo's ability to pay for the peak funding amount. Higher revenue and lower opex pays for more peak funding. That's why the MTM was never the most cost-effective solution.
What a surprise. An NBN free ABC TV 7:30 report tonight.
Yes, that is true, but he forgets to tell his fellow Australians is, that the largest amount of active services is actually on FTTP, fixed-wireless and Satellite which are all technologies in the technology mix of Labor's NBNv1.
Are you sure it's true? Didn't Quigley say they had 150,000 connected at his last Senate hearing?
But the Coalition figure for satellite coverage is 400,000, the same as it was under Labor.
Yes it is I agree completely (not withstanding the Tassie west coast reversal).
The problem is the difference between premises 'passed' (the ~400k) and premises that can actually have an active service (the ~200K maximum given the design specs quoted previously).
Of course those initial design specs are served by a single Sat (assuming equal distribution across the spot beams) with the 2nd Sat in reserve in case of failure (and to takeup some of the excess load on heavily congested beams).
The real issue for Sat users is whether the ABHT (Average Busy Hour Throughput) of 300Kbps is adequate. The ACCC NBN Wholesale Report suggests this is ~1/3 of the level currently being provided over the fixed line network due to the CVC restrictions, which is about 1Mbps per user. (although I am not sure how the CVC transitional arrangements factor in this, that is the 150 Mbps per CSA)
Unless we are now expecting 100% take up the claim that The Sat system was originally designed to accommodate around 200,000 premises...the LNP expanded that to 400,000. is simply incorrect.
Yes
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