Does this mean that they started work before announcing the agreement?
To be honest IMO from observations on Perth streets there would be little doubt Telstra has been doing works for FTTN since late 2013. Lots of yellow barriers popped up in a number of locations and left there for months. There was extensive fibre laid from Cannington Exchange etc etc. Lets not forget that FTTN would appear to be little more than an upgrade from Telstra's Tophat tech. That's well prior to revised Telstra agreement too....
What does "network shortfall" mean? A shortfall of what?
Can only mean spin for network not completed yet/not ready. NBN do not have services that can be connected at that point in time obviously.
RFS and/or premises passed stats would appear to be counted but services can't be connected.... lies lies and more lies IMO
Can only mean spin for network not completed yet/not ready.
That sounds like it.
It's a bit amusing, if like me you have that sense of humour � Turnbull in opposition never ceased excoriating NBN Co for designating areas as RFS before they actually were, and now his nbn� seems to be doing exactly the same thing.
RFS and/or premises passed stats would appear to be counted but services can't be connected...
But they have met all their targets!
It would be churlish to suggest there might be a little, er, imagination being applied here, surely?
I'm guessing that bringing a clapped out old voice network up to the standards for FTTN � is extremely difficult. It was never designed for this.
Yeah, but this is true overseas as well. Is our copper worse to the extent FTTN is not feasible but they don't want to admit it before the election? You could be right. They're going to have to face up to it soon though.
Man hours is the biggest cost so how many man hours would be needed to see if the local copper is fit for use, and remediation as needed? Then going back a few times for every incident of poor speeds?
I think checking the copper comes down to connecting a customer and seeing what happens. From what I've read here, if there's a problem it may or may not get fixed.
It begs the question of how they determine a node is RFS.
You're not on your own with that question :)
Yeah, but this is true overseas as well.
Most overseas countries with clapped out copper are not futilely attempting to retrofit FTTN.
They are doing the sensible, logical, correct, agile and innovative thing and installing FTTP or FTTdp/FTTB.
From what I've read here, if there's a problem it may or may not get fixed.
Or it may get duck-shoved seemingly for ever, in the apparent hope that the enduser will get fed up and give up.
Most overseas countries with clapped out copper are not futilely attempting to retrofit FTTN.
Except the UK. And even they have admitted its a complete mistake.
and their housing density is so different to ours. sharing walls with neighbours in streets where the houses look near identical and are 1/3 the width of Aussie house, obviously no side yards for a lot of them (being joined!) .
Even if the UK was giving FTTN top marks the difference in average distance from exchange or the efficiency of how many people you can run off a node would be cause for concern
Reality is � the area is RFS � until you actually try and connect.
If the entire SAM is like this then it should not be classified as RFS. As I understand it, the trigger is ~90% of premises must be able to order (and have installed) a service before a SAM can be declared RFS. A quick look at recent FttN activations show SAMs ranging from 1000 to 4200 premises.
See http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/recent/bf
A quick investigation of the recent activations, suggest the entire SAM 5CPK-10 is classed SC10. Quite a few of the others from this list return the same result. The issue is not isolated to FttN SAMs.
I suspect there is an issue with the source data jxeeno is getting.
The other alternative is nbnTM are going early in an effort to meet their FY2016 targets.
The other alternative is nbnTM are going early in an effort to meet their FY2016 targets.
They shouldn't call an area ready for service if it isn't just to meet they're targets so they don't look bad.
They are doing the sensible, logical, correct, agile and innovative thing and installing FTTP or FTTdp/FTTB.
I was trying to keep away from this argument, not that there is one really, and focus on what's happening with FTTN. As far as I can see there are two possibilities: the copper is too far gone for FTTN to be viable and/or the NBNCo is running out of money.
Whatever it is, they're not going to tell us before the election. It will have to come out after the election though whichever side wins.
They shouldn't call an area ready for service if it isn't just to meet their targets so they don't look bad.
No they shouldn't, no matter how much political pressure may be being applied behind the scenes.
This would be a particularly egregious practice for nbn� to follow, given the previous never-ceasing Turnbull rampage against NBN Co for allegedly doing exactly the same thing.
What does "network shortfall" mean? A shortfall of what?
When I had my FTTP service activated this was reported. When I spoke to my RSP (iiNet), they said there was something about the NTD serial number not being recognised. I was asked to check it. As the installers had left the boxes for me to dispose of I scanned the serial number on the box and discovered there was a S on the front as there were two barcodes � the part number and the serial number. The Part number had a P for checking that was to be discarded and the serial number an S.
I called iiNet back and they confirmed the number provided when the installers scanned the data through they included the S.
Once corrected, the service was activated within minutes.
So, when network shortfall is reported, it covers a multitude of sins. Maybe it's to allow the system to report a successful connection, but not actually place any demands on it?
This would be a particularly egregious practice for nbn� to follow, given the previous never-ceasing Turnbull rampage against NBN Co for allegedly doing exactly the same thing.
Yeah well if it comes out that his doing the same thing, all he has to say is Labor did it first, we should be allowed a chance too. Bunch of hypocrites. You know they say 51-49 is close but if thats the case, we clearly see Shorten is unpopular compared to turnbull but with the way things are going i won't be surprised if Labor does somehow win this. Hopefully they can reveal everything the Coalition has done to the NBN and somehow fix it. But that would need a miracle
But why isn't it faster? There's a lot less work so it should be faster.
The data from jxeenos site suggests it is faster.
I was trying to keep away from this argument
That's certainly the impression given.
two possibilities: the copper is too far gone for FTTN to be viable and/or the NBNCo is running out of money.
There's a third one, which only arises due to the extreme personnel changes and other politicisation of nbn� which have recently occurred.
That would be that, as suspected, much of the CAN is shot and should be replaced to deliver anywhere near the QOS standards that were airily promised as an assured part of the MTM. So now the whole MTM miasma is being made to mark time until the election is safely out of the way.
But why isn't it faster?
More visits for the tech, replacing of degraded copper, people complaining when they don't get increased speeds.
The data from jxeenos site suggests it is faster.
And that data looks compelling.
But apparently we aren't supposed to know that. Perhaps it's an operational matter!
;-)
The data from jxeenos site suggests it is faster.
Yep, but is he counting premises reported as RFS but that can't order a service? It seems that's what the NBNCo is doing.
That's certainly the impression given.
It should be possible to discuss the issues with the FTTN part of the MTM without being sidetracked.
That would be that, as suspected, much of the CAN is shot and should be replaced to deliver anywhere near the QOS standards that were airily promised as an assured part of the MTM.
Is that different from "the copper is too far gone for FTTN to be viable"?
But they have met all their targets!
Here is my take on the grades of aiming at targets.
1. Stand, draw the arrow against the bow, aim, release, and hit the center of the target.
2. Stand, draw the arrow against the bow, aim, release, and hit the somewhere on the target.
3. Stand, draw the arrow against the bow, don't aim, release, and miss the target.
4. Stand but do nothing.
5. Sit around and complain that it's hate speech to be expected to shoot the arrow.
Overall I'd say that MTMCo haven't done better that #3.
Perhaps it's an operational matter!
I think so because they certainly have been doing a job on us.
And that data looks compelling.
It is incredible to me that a young man, during the years he finished high school and started university was able to build a website that provides a vastly superior overview of the largest national infrastructure project in this nations history, than the GBE rolling out the project.
Imagine the clarity that could be provided on this project if this approach was taken by nbnTM.
Yep, but is he counting premises reported as RFS but that can't order a service? It seems that's what the NBNCo is doing.
The data provided at www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker (formerly mynbn.info) is derived from a number of unofficial sources (as I understand it).
It beggars belief that nbnTM would be headed down this path. If it comes to light that nbnTM is declaring SAMs RFS when significant numbers of premises can't order successfully order a service, heads should be on the line, all the way up to the Minister.
politics aside, there's no reason that Labor shouldn't win and then expose these criminals. After the way they treated Conroy (regardless of what you may think of him) I think Dreyfus will go directly after Fizzbull'ss litigious ass.
The other alternative is nbnTM are going early in an effort to meet their FY2016 pre-election targets.
FTFY :)
Be wary of the poster posers where they do a selective rollout of hardware and have sweet fa infrastructure in place, typical politician window dressing.
It is incredible to me that a young man, during the years he finished high school and started university was able to build a website that provides a vastly superior overview of the largest national infrastructure project in this nations history, than the GBE rolling out the project.
Not really: mature adults expect to be paid well for paced work output whilst the young are still enthusiastic enough to put in extra unpaid effort for their own interest. They are quickly dissuaded of this approach though by the establishment. It's a real tragedy, because the young show what society could be like when money is not the be-all-end-all driving force.
It is incredible to me that a young man, during the years he finished high school and started university was able to build a website that provides a vastly superior overview of the largest national infrastructure project in this nations history, than the GBE rolling out the project.
Interestingly I was at a seminar around a month ago where one of the speakers was from NBNCo. When people asked about the rollout, the speaker recommended that people look at MyNBN.info as it has better and more up to date information than the NBNCo roll out maps!
I think it may be an euphemism for saying your connection does not work.
Network shortfall is simply 'spin'....fro no service available....
The reason for spin is to hide failure to deliver and most likely hide the RFS stats are claimed without actually being built....
the trigger is ~90% of premises must be able to order (and have installed) a service before a SAM can be declared RFS
It would appear that NBN Co have determined that the infrastructure does not need to be completed to commence ordering with the RSP ...you just have to wait a long(er) time ie 'Network Shorfall status" is the interim period between concept design and actual service availablity....but NBN CO can claim the RFS stats for senior management and pollies to broadcast achievement of target forecasts.... /S (that's a big /S)
Just another example of how the Lib's NBN policy is possibly the worst commercial decision of all time...
From the Labor Thread � a user has a voice and ADSL fault in an FTTN area. Telstra check to the pillar, all good. Now NBN needs to investigate and fix the pillar to user fault.
Telstra are laughing all the way to the bank! Free maintenance!
But it also highlights � what happens to people who need a phoneline? The elderly, the medical priority? What do they do when FTTN comes around?
What do they do when FTTN comes around?
They would have had a similar issue with FTTP, but it is a problem none the less.
I think Dreyfus will go directly after Fizzbull'ss litigious ass.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a reaction at least to the news today that 80+% of Australians want an ICAC type body created at Federal level to deal with corruption at that level....
A promise from Labor to create that with NBN at the forefront would be a good start....
They would have had a similar issue with FTTP, but it is a problem none the less.
With FTTP there is a solution built into the network design (and Telstra hold a contract to transition phone only customers to FTTP, including going into homes and rewiring existing phone points to the UNI-V)... with FTTN it's in the too hard basket.
oops missed half the post I responded to
In the case of Telstra it is Murphy's law of the patch and to deny there is an issue with its infrastructure and implement the bare necessity to keep the copper functioning keeping the twisties network in place as long as possible...
Just another example of how the Lib's NBN policy is possibly the worst commercial decision of all time...
From the Labor Thread � a user has a voice and ADSL fault in an FTTN area. Telstra check to the pillar, all good. Now NBN needs to investigate and fix the pillar to user fault.
Telstra are laughing all the way to the bank! Free maintenance!
So if you had flaky ADSL2+ from the beginning. When your area is RFS. Never sign up to FTTN. Keep hassling telstra for line remediation until its fixed. Hopefully they raise it with MTMCo and it gets fixed.
Then reassess whether its worthwhile to cut over to FTTN. By then if your line was fixed you should probably see a slightly better ADSL2+ service to decide whether its worth it to switch.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a reaction at least to the news today that 80+% of Australians want an ICAC type body created at Federal level to deal with corruption at that level....
Both major political parties have stated at various times that they don't want a federal ICAC...might be too many skeletons and dodgy deals in both their closets.
Not sure if this has been posted, but is a good reflection of the differences between the original NBN and the Coalitions MTM.
might be too many skeletons and dodgy deals in both their closets.
So true and for LNP the NBN would be top of the list....we certainly wouldn't be getting the rubbish we get IMO
It may become a political tool however, they would get more disciplined, wouldn't they?
might be too many skeletons and dodgy deals in both their closets.
Even more reason to do it.
If we are left with no politicians then so be it.
LNP masters of a con and fiction.
I watched Turnbull today stand in front of the banner material and keep referring to the Economic Plan time and time again.
With memories of the pre 2013 NBN Plan I thought I'd check what was in The Economic Plan with reference to NBN. I went on the LNP website and couldn't find an actual document called the Economic Plan but found an item that listed the items on it (with donate tabs on each issue. The above Fifield tweet is all that is there �
If this is the ECONOMIC PLAN for NBN then it cannot be called a plan. If the whole lot (perhaps six pages at best(?) is the overall Economic Plan then it is a nothing document IMO. If the public have a perception that it contains anything of substance they are sadly misguided. It is worse than Abbott's was and we know what that was worthwith regards to implementation......de ja vue???
If we are left with no politicians then so be it.
Id prefer this, and we could have independent bodies formed by those in the academia/industry/industry bodies to make decisions, not politicians who have vested interests.
Id prefer this, and we could have independent bodies formed by those in the academia/industry/industry bodies to make decisions, not politicians who have vested interests.
Imagine an nbn built by industry experts for what we actually need....
Something like the original Overland Telegraph line I believe was basicaly built by the the Industry Experts at the time. So it can be done. I would think there would be more recent examples of decent infrastructure being built without any political footballing.
If you look at The Sydney Harbour Bridge, Copper Can, Snowy Mountain Scheme etc. the thing they have in common is that the Liberals all thought they weren't needed.
Just like the nbn � history will show how wrong they were.
Imagine an nbn built by industry experts for what we actually need....
I can, it was the original NBN, or was there a /s that i missed? forgive me but im sick :/
Im hoping that this swing towards indis will put FTTP back on the table, if Labor cant get up.
I thought I'd check what was in The Economic Plan with reference to NBN.
the plan??? did it go something like this? jobs and growth, jobs and growth, jobs and growth, LABOR BAAADDDD NBN BBAAAAADDDD jobs and growth... blah
I loved the way the caretaker PM use Engineers Australia to sell his pseudo-innovation plan by trying to piggy-back of the Engineers Australia branding, all the while doing everything he can to ensure that Australia remains an online connected backwater!
I'm surprised that EA was prepared to be used like that.
I'm surprised that EA was prepared to be used like that.
"Support us or no funding for you".....
Im hoping that this swing towards indis will put FTTP back on the table, if Labor cant get up.
That will only work if it gets the ALP to complete the NBN as originally designed, or for the LNP to abandon its stance and embrace the original NBN plan.
The hard truth is that a handful of independents is not going to change anything. They might hold some sway for a period of time and be an annoyance but ultimately they will not change the way political parties run government.
I'm surprised that EA was prepared to be used like that.
Not, only was it disappointing from that point of view but a lack of mention to anything like NBN infrastructure etc being part of 'exciting' future, the verbal garbage and over statement re girls girls girls was embarrassing. I could imaging most young girls/women hearing his spin would have, as presumably intelligent people, walked away saying 'what a dork..." (or the equivalent these days ). Where was the substance?...just fluff, EA would be disappointed no doubt.
NBN is a critical part to their future domestically and internationally. Already a large part of engineering for big Miners and Oil and Gas is done overseas, at least some capability to communicate with Australia would be appreciated. The stuff that moves head offices overseas....brain drain overseas is not what these girls/young women want to hear.
That will only work if it gets the ALP to complete the NBN as originally designed, or for the LNP to abandon its stance and embrace the original NBN plan.
Unfortunately it's too late for that, unless they plan to rip out all the nodes & associated equipment that have/being installed in the FTTN areas.
Like the Irish Government are about to legislate, when is the Australian Federal Coalition going to change their NBN/MTM policy, NBN Strategy, and SOE to NBNCo, to provide a legally enforceable right for home and business owners to be provided with minimum speeds of at least 25Mbps (including during peak hours) from their RSP's?
At the moment their is no right or even guarantees of minimum speeds that Australian homes and business must be able to get for their broadband 24*7.
https://www.siliconrepublic.
unlike the UK, which has stopped at 10Mbps as a minimum standard, the USO will need to serve home and business owners in Ireland for the next 30 or 40 years and that 30Mbps is the baseline.
�We want to ensure people have access to broadband as a right,� Naughten said. �I want it as an enforceable right.�
Where was the substance?...just fluff, EA would be disappointed no doubt.
Exactly. It was certainly cringeworthy.
The disappointing thing is that EA is a Non-Profit Organisation and gets $0 funding from any government. They did not need it, but have allowed themselves to be used.
Unfortunately it's too late for that, unless they plan to rip out all the nodes & associated equipment that have/being installed in the FTTN areas.
Well, if Australia wants to be taken seriously, it will have to.
The politicians talk about leaving future generations to pay the debt. Well what about leaving them that debt anyway and then the requirement that THEY will have to correct things????
They (indies) might hold some sway for a period of time and be an annoyance but ultimately they will not change the way political parties run government.
Well if Windsor gets in he is pro NBN clearly as are any Greens and Wilkie I believe is pissed off at what happened to Tasmania's promise for FTTP, so there are 4 votes to add to ALP. There could well be a couple of Xenophon's succeed as well s there could be 6 indies favouring NBN. Add Katter to the mix who probably wouldn't support NBN... Possible 7 indies.
LNP need 76 seats to govern in own right and (ref ABC Calculator ) 50.1% Lib vote is minimum LNP need to retain power with all predicted 4 indies supporting them. 50.6% Lab vote give them govt in their own right and 50.2% Lab has indies involved. That's with only 4 indies predicted by ABC. By current polls even a 50/50 vote may save NBN. There are variables that can throw that out like the $1.6B LNP have already thrown as pork barrel to marginal seats during election campaign mostly in South Aust/Qld.
On those figures though the senate looks like it could be worse for LNP and how that affects NBN depends, but HoR is real key for NBN. Interestingly, the joint sitting due to Double Dissolution may backfire with likely minority in overall total to LNP. I'd bet it won't happen at all......egg on face...unless LNP have majority.
If you look at The Sydney Harbour Bridge, Copper Can, Snowy Mountain Scheme etc. the thing they have in common is that the Liberals all thought they weren't needed.
Just like the nbn � history will show how wrong they were.
I have never voted for the LNP and will never vote them in my lifetime. Leopard never changes their spot, they are anti-everything, attack labor, attack NBN, attack students, attack pensioners and attack the poor. One thing they support Businesses and Big businesses (aka, their rich mates).
But when you ask them to come up with something and execute. They make things worse, setting us backwards as a nation. The MTM is one of the biggest examples. Its time for the nation to get educated and actually vote them out for good. Their values do not align with fair go Australia, everyone deserves a fair go.
Their plan and repeating. "Jabs" and "Glooat". Yep, give labor a few uppercut jabs, and gloat how well they are managing the economy. Except everything points to the contrary.
Id prefer this, and we could have independent bodies formed by those in the academia/industry/industry bodies to make decisions, not politicians who have vested interests.
This seems like a simpsons episode if i recall correctly... They had issues with their opinions but eh would be enjoyable to see
the plan??? did it go something like this? jobs and growth, jobs and growth, jobs and growth, LABOR BAAADDDD NBN BBAAAAADDDD jobs and growth... blah
Funny how Labors NBN could provide jobs
Funny how Labors NBN could provide jobs
They aren't jobs powered by coal though � everyone knows that green tech/the internet aren't real!
A real NBN could provide so many innovative jobs � but the LNP don't want to invest in something that displeases Rupert.
I was over in the Central Coast thread with a bit of a discussion happening about nodes being declared RFS yet no one can seem to connect due to the mystery "network shortfall"
will just pick on area and list the nodes in it with connection stats courtesy of Finder
you can do your own analysis starting here http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/sa/2WOY
ADA ID Technology Premises # Serviceable^ Connected^
2WOY-13-01 copper 291 291 (High) 20 (Low)
2WOY-13-02 copper 195 194 (High) 20 (Low)
2WOY-13-03 copper 202 202 (High) 13 (Low)
2WOY-13-04 copper 179 179 (High) 23 (Low)
2WOY-13-05 copper 106 106 (High) 6 (Low)
2WOY-13-06 copper 316 315 (High) 25 (Low)
2WOY-13-07 copper 139 139 (High) 10 (Low)
2WOY-13-08 copper 117 117 (High) 0 (None)
2WOY-13-09 copper 40 40 (High) 2 (None)
2WOY-13-10 copper 101 101 (High) 3 (None)
2WOY-13-11 copper 81 81 (High) 10 (Low)
2WOY-13-13 copper 68 68 (High) 0 (None)
not sure of the dates of the data, but the numbers look outstanding not sure if I need to add this /s
I was over in the Central Coast thread with a bit of a discussion happening about nodes being declared RFS yet no one can seem to connect due to the mystery "network shortfall"
After looking through a significant number of SAMs in the recent activations list I am pretty sure the data jxeeno is using is lagging reality.
Every SAM I checked on the recent activation list with a RFS date later than April 1 2016 returned a SC0 / SC10 value of 100%. Perhaps this data is only updated quarterly in the sources he is using?
Now this doesn't address the 'network shortfall' issue, which may be related to another issue I have discovered. I simply had not read any of the Service Class designations other than the ones I was directly interested in.
Service Class 11- the location is serviceable by copper, copper lead-in required
EDIT: I forgot to add the redundant WTF???
From your 2WOY serving area you can see the following.
Service Class 11 = 8,681 (28%)
This information does not come from an official nbnTM website, however, it is my understanding that the underlying data is from nbnTM indirectly via 'unknown sources'.
however, it is my understanding that the underlying data is from nbnTM indirectly via 'unknown sources.'
AFP RAID !!!
They would have had a similar issue with FTTP, but it is a problem none the less
No, there is no such problem with FTTP switch-over. When I got FTTP, the fibre was physically connected for about three weeks before NBN and the ISP got it actually working. In the mean time I still had a working ADSL and phone. It was only when the FTTP connection was operational (green light on) that I switched my router over. No disruption of any services!
Duplicate � Sorry.
Imagine an nbn built by industry experts for what we actually need...
That would have been the NBN, as planned and commenced by NBN Co.
'An nbn', aka MTM, sounds more like a Turnbull perversion, as proposed to be delivered by his nbn�.
Imagine an nbn built by industry experts for what we actually need....
Wait, I remember this one time, prior to 2013, when they did exactly that...Or wake me up 'cause I'm dreaming.
But it also highlights � what happens to people who need a phoneline? The elderly, the medical priority? What do they do when FTTN comes around?
According to nbn, they should get a Telstra mobile. If they have a Medtronic Carelink style product, they should exchange it for the 3G version (only an additional $50/month to your health provider)
If you have a fall alert device, then that is another 3G service also.
nbn have stated that voip over FTTN is unreliable.
nbn have stated that voip over FTTN is unreliable.
Ah hmm jeez where have i heard that VOIP IS reliable... hmm i think the first word began with a F and the last word started with a H. Ah yes Fibre to the Home.
So many services we will be missing out on :(
According to nbn, they should get a Telstra mobile.
ooops is this another "kick back" for the free copper?
Interesting the Q+A in Tamworth on rural issues is repeating returning to the NBN.
And Windsor (yay!) stood up and said "Do it once, do it right, do it with fibre".
Plenty of NBN discussion on Q & A tonight. Barnaby Joyce and Tony Windsor with others. Subject has come up a number of times and Barnbay is the lone voice in the room. He rattled out the $30billion more, 8 years more, 25/5 is enough, noone has ordered more than 100/40, etc almost all in one sentence.
Q&A is coming from Tamworth tonight. The NBN is getting quite a lot of coverage. It looks like poor old Barnaby is the only one on the panel who supports the MTM. I don't like the "do it once ... etc" thing but Tony Windsor got a big cheer when he said it :)
edit:
no comments for ages then three in a minute :)
Q&A is coming from Tamworth tonight. The NBN is getting quite a lot of coverage. It looks like poor old Barnaby is the only one on the panel who supports the MTM. I don't like the "do it once ... etc" thing but Tony Windsor got a big cheer when he said it :)
It shows how important the NBN is rural and regional Australia. The questioners are asking all the right questions. Windsor is right to say do it once etc... It's the only way it can be done properly in these areas. If they get FTTN, they won't get FTTP for decades, if at all. FTTP had the potential to fill in a lot of holes in services in terminal Australia. Windsor needs to keep pushing.
Subject has come up a number of times and Barnbay is the lone voice in the room. He rattled out the $30billion more, 8 years more, 25/5 is enough, noone has ordered more than 100/40, etc almost all in one sentence.
The audience is certainly asking all the right questions this time. I really do wish that someone would raise Barnabys previous support for FTTP and his claim labor stole his policy.
Q&A is coming from Tamworth tonight. The NBN is getting quite a lot of coverage. It looks like poor old Barnaby is the only one on the panel who supports the MTM. I don't like the "do it once ... etc" thing but Tony Windsor got a big cheer when he said it :)
Where can i watch this piece of footage, would love to see it.
Where can i watch this piece of footage, would love to see it.
hopefully it should be up on iView tomorrow
edit:- and here is the link http://iview.abc.net.au/progr
It shows how important the NBN is rural and regional Australia. The questioners are asking all the right questions.
It always has been important. I was going to say Tony Windsor is making Barnaby Joyce look a fool but I think it would be more accurate to say Barnaby Joyce is making Barnaby Joyce look a fool.
Windsor is right to say do it once etc... It's the only way it can be done properly in these areas.
Possibly. I don't like ruling out the use of FTTB/dp in MDUs to speed up the roll out. Then come back and do FTTP in those MDUs later. I think that stands in all areas.
If they get FTTN, they won't get FTTP for decades, if at all.
FTTN is not an interim solution on the way to FTTP. The only place I think it might have is in regional towns that are not getting FTTP where exchange-based VDSL might be a good solution to take the load off wireless.
It always has been important. I was going to say Tony Windsor is making Barnaby Joyce look a fool but I think it would be more accurate to say Barnaby Joyce is making Barnaby Joyce look a fool.
Everyone made Barnaby look like an idiot. He even got the tomato happening at some stages he was so flustered. I just wish someone would have nailed him about his previous advocacy of FTTP. There would be no comeback from that, and the room would have given him a serve.
Possibly. I don't like ruling out the use of FTTB/dp in MDUs to speed up the roll out. Then come back and do FTTP in those MDUs later. I think that stands in all areas. MDUs are largely irrelevant in the regions. The majority of premises are single dwellings. Windsor gets a lot of support for his stance for good reason.
FTTN is not an interim solution on the way to FTTP.
It needs to be done once, and done right.
obviously Joyce has a selective memory and has seldom bothered to research his original policy trying to change tact in fttp support
obviously Joyce has a selective memory
Well he can't say FTTP has any merit as that would put a huge kink in the LNP campaign. His only hope of staying deputy PM is to toe the party line. Just goes to show how many scruples most politicians have.
toeing the party line means the commitment of political suicide and more than likely face a gaol cell if not the firing squad for treason against the country...
sad to say i suspect Malcolm will be leaving the country to remove himself from facing any commission regarding his time former opspokesman on comms, to eventually comms minister now within the seat of prime minister which he was not elected for and passing the same fate labor did previous election cycle they should went to the polls when the fool took office..
i doubt joyce has even looked at the commissioned papers regarding the current state of australias communication network, never mind sully his own fingers of malcs farce without himself liable supporting this political pissing contest of factually fraudulent facts...
It was a great episode � lots if questions about the nbn,
It shows it is an election issue.
What you wont read in the unaustralian.
Q&A: Barnaby Joyce and Tony Windsor trade blows on mining and national broadband network
A woman from a farm 20km from Tamworth asked why she had telecommunications �equivalent of a third world� with no TV reception, mobile and no fixed line.
The loudest cheers came for Windsor�s slogan on the National Broadband Network, �do it once, do it right, do it with fibre�.
t was a great episode � lots if questions about the nbn,
Darn, I didn't know it was on and even if it was I didn't really know "NBN" was going to be mentioned in Q&A for once.
Anyway I haven't got time now to watch the Q&A Video right now but it looks like the latest one was uploaded to Iview 9 hours ago. Check it out if you missed it like i did.
http://iview.abc.net.au/prog
Have a read of the comments too. When I last looked probably half the comments were about the NBN. None of them were favourable to Joyce's stance.
Have a read of the comments too. When I last looked probably half the comments were about the NBN
More than half.. A big issue in new England.
Comments said : bye bye Barnaby..
no such problem with FTTP switch-over
Understood, The switch over is fine, but what about after? I was refering more to the curfuffel around the in-home backup battery to power home phones on FTTP.
The loudest cheers came for Windsor�s slogan on the National Broadband Network, �do it once, do it right, do it with fibre�.
I was a little annoyed that Jones cut the responses short on this.
Nevertheless, I got a sense there is an elephant in the room and it is about to get upset.
just had my voice phone line fixed after reporting a fault
- Yesterday Telstra checked exchange to the pillar, then as it was ok tho there they put a job into nbn� to fix the pillar to network boundary point
- worker wearing a nbn� vest turns up and starts checking the fault after having done some prep work at the pilllar by replacing the jumpers, removing a "battery" and some other tidying up.
- worker is actually employed by Telstra
- I am informed if the fault is in my aerial lead in he cannot replace it as neither nbn� workers or Telstra workers now have access to poles to work on aerial junctions or anchor points due to the transfer of ownership of the assets (this could be due to the privatisation of the poles and wires in NSW) and NO agreement between nbn� and AUSGRID for climbing poles all that work has to be scheduled and done from a bucket truck at a later date
- luckily my fault is between the point of attachment onto the house and the first socket
oh what a wonderful scheme Dear Leader Malcolm Turnbull has given us, especially for those of us with FTTN in an AUSGRID area and maybe other areas as well
the man is so egotistical that he even has his initials on the nbn� branding, of course either in keeping with his plan the initials are backwards or are like you do a school roll, surname first
just had my voice phone line fixed after reporting a fault
Faster and cheaper � YEAH RIGHT!
What a shambles!
If we were getting FTTP it wouldn't matter � we could roll it out and there would't be any issues with lead-ins etc.
staying deputy PM is to toe the party line
Not quite � that position goes to the leader of the Nationals in a Liberal/silage coalition, so it's not the Liberal line he needs to follow. What the voters in Tamworth need to ask themselves is where *were* the National party when Barnardy's preferred option was being lied about then dismantled by Clownshoes and Lord Verdigris...:-(
Understood, The switch over is fine, but what about after? I was refering more to the curfuffel around the in-home backup battery to power home phones on FTTP.
It was a storm in a tea cup.
I was refering more to the curfuffel around the in-home backup battery to power home phones on FTTP
In my case battery backup is provided with the NTD. I think this became optional for later fttp installations. Like most people I use VOIP and not the UNI-V port for my phone connection. For emergency calls during long power failures I would use my mobile. This has not been necessary in my three years of FTTP (no power failures and no network failures). I would think that medical monitoring could be switched to mobile when necessary, but am not sure. For me and the vast majority of fttp users � no curfuffel whatsoever!
Not NBN directly but this sums up the "your home doesn't need those speeds" argument -
EEF members' main concerns for broadband are that it's cost effective, reliable, and resilient, as well as future proof. Speed doesn't factor into it nearly as much.
Full report �
more than likely face a gaol cell if not the firing squad for treason against the country...
Ridiculous hyperbole like that really detracts from your points
Stats are in on most important things for voters.
It was a storm in a tea cup.
Indeed, but there was a lot of noise about it.
no curfuffel whatsoever!
It was at the time. I'd prefer not to have a home phone at all.
Their plan and repeating. "Jabs" and "Glooat". Y
Just use "Slobs and sloth." inste�d of "Jobs and growth.
Indeed, but there was a lot of noise about it.
So alot of noise about a solved probelm. However: there is no noise about the Telstra HFC not having any battery backup at all � and no plans to install it. And this will be a significant part of the population. What happens to medical priority in these areas?
https://delimiter.com.au/201
Comms Minister skips Internet Australia meeting in home town.
�It�s a shame we weren�t able to show Senator Fifield some of the success stories unfolding here for those businesses that have already been connect to the NBN,� he said.
Fong continued to say that those parts of Ballarat that have been provided with the high-speed fibre-based FTTP version have already benefitted greatly from the NBN rollout.
�Businesses there are now able to undertake tasks never before possible,� Fong said. �The parts of our city that have FTTP provide a benchmark for operational delivery of high speed NBN services across regional Australia.�
Comms Minister skips Internet Australia meeting in home town.
Chair of the group, George Fong, said he was �bemused� that the Minister did not make the time to catch up with local stakeholders, despite being in his hometown of Ballarat at the time, and following multiple requests for a meeting.
�This would have been the ideal opportunity for the minister to speak first hand to people who need fast broadband and have the evidence to prove it, and to hear their stories not the filtered reports ministers traditionally receive�, Fong said.
Ahhh but Fifield would have had to listen to the inconvenient truth if he'd attended, wouldn't he.
Ahhh but Fifield would have had to listen to the inconvenient truth if he'd attended, wouldn't he.
This is fast becoming a rather large issue for the LNP.
They keep banging on about cost and time overruns and yet their own network has these.
People don't care about this � all they want is working internet fast enough to last well into the future.
FTTN cannot give us this.
This is fast becoming a rather large issue for the LNP.
It certainly is. There are lots of angry internet users out there who have woken up to Turnbull and is fraudband con.
This is fast becoming a rather large issue for the LNP.
Just finished watching Q&A from last night.
The LNP seem to be ignoring the groundswell of support for a proper FTTP nbn.
Let's hope people back it up, when it's time to vote!
So alot of noise about a solved probelm
Yes, a lot of noise 5+ years ago, sheesh where were you guys then?
Just saw MT announce the next debate will be streamed on news.com.au and Facebook.
Somehow, this could backfire with the pathetic NBN Internet speeds being experienced!
Yes, a lot of noise 5+ years ago, sheesh where were you guys then?
I was here.. However, it was always planned to have battery backup available � which made the arguments seem nonsensical.
Now � for most, its not even going to be an option.. Wait until my die hard liberal voting family find out that they are going to have to forkout moolah to come up with a solution for my Grandmothers Call Alert system. Its battery backed up, but the network its going to be connected to wont be.
Just finished watching Q&A from last night.
The LNP seem to be ignoring the groundswell of support for a proper FTTP nbn.
Let's hope people back it up, when it's time to vote!
It really is beginning to seem the libs are too proud to admit they made a mistake with fttn and will hold to the script, even at the expense of the election.
edit:
no comments for ages then three in a minute :)
I'd bet those NBN leakages might draw a comment from Joyce to Jones as he walked out which might have taken the form of ....how's your ABC budget looking Tony.....? Could get a lot worse you know...I'm in a positon of influence, got mates in high places you know (as he reminded everyone a few times) ...
t shows how important the NBN is rural and regional Australia. The questioners are asking all the right questions.
And the LNP are clearly not listening, certainly not about NBN, from Joyce's answers.
And the LNP are clearly not listening, certainly not about NBN, from Joyce's answers.
Joyce has a problem with his perceptions � Turnbull.
Turnbull has a problem with his perceptions � the liberal parties' right wing members.
Labor and LIberal/National parties have a problem � the two party preferred system.
Tony Windor's closing comment said it all. "From 1901, for the first 20 years of the federal government, we had no parties and everything worked fine". (So did the Gillard hung Parliament � more legislation passed than any other.)
Get behind the independents � but not so far behind as to render them useless.
�Businesses there are now able to undertake tasks never before possible,� Fong said. �The parts of our city that have FTTP provide a benchmark for operational delivery of high speed NBN services across regional Australia.
�It�s a shame we weren�t able to show Senator Fifield some of the success stories unfolding here for those businesses that have already been connect to the NBN,�
If Fifield doesn't see or hear it then it doesn't exist...right?
Chair of the group, George Fong, said he was �bemused� that the Minister did not make the time to catch up with local stakeholders, despite being in his hometown of Ballarat at the time, and following multiple requests for a meeting.
This confirms the 'small target' strategy of the LNP across the board. Residents of Ballarat and surrounds should be reading in their local papers and seeing on TV media that Fifield squibbed the opportunity to tell them why FTTN/MTM is so good for them and not FTTP...
Getting the FTTP message to electors is the major problem...
On the matter about having a fixed line phone with FTTP instead of using mobile, I want to speak of my own experience.
Yes, I could use mobile, but I don't like using it. I find the service patchy and often is hard to hear. I have had several mobile phones and haven't found one I like using. I have it up as loud as it goes on speaker and it's not good enough.
There is also an issue of calling some company or government service and being placed on call waiting for 30-60 minutes. It's a pain to have to hold the mobile close enough to hear when I finally get someone to talk to. Whereas using the fixed line I can use the speaker phone, which is loud enough to be heard and I don't have to hold it to my ear. Also, I can get the fixed line call rate much cheaper than using the mobile in this way, which charges continuously.
This may seem like silly piffle to others but it matters to me, and it's why I always option a VOIP service when I move into a rental with FTTP. The main pest is finding the owner has had the NTD placed in the garage where it's useless and I get the expense of having cabling run into the house.
Just saw MT announce the next debate will be streamed on news.com.au and Facebook.
Somehow, this could backfire with the pathetic NBN Internet speeds being experienced!
Lame excuse for not going on Q&A etc, wants to present an 'innovative' debate....
Now, if everyone goes online at the same time and everyone gets bbbbuuuuuffff ......eeeeerrrreeeeedddd that could be pretty embarrassing eh?
No doubt a moderator will vet online questions and those asking... 'why can't I follow the debate because of buffering'... won't get through....
Tony Windor's closing comment said it all. "From 1901, for the first 20 years of the federal government, we had no parties and everything worked fine".
It does appear to me that the party system is a significant problem. I see the same thing existing from what I know about the US and UK as well. When the parties establish dominance it means MPs are less responsive to the electorate and power is controlled by a few hidden controllers of party policy.
We are further handicapped in Australia by the two party preferred system, in that even if you put an independent or small party as #1, if that one doesn't get enough votes your vote will go to whichever big party is next in line on your ballot. As a result Liberal or Labor still get the vote, even if you don't want them to.
If Fifield doesn't see or hear it then it doesn't exist...right?
see no fibre
speak no fibre
say no fibre
the 3 Liberal monkeys
sadly backpaw i have read past the political spiel of the last 20 odd years, to the point i already know anyone riding on the curt tails of turnbull will not see office if by some miracle the lnp retain offfice if or when the federal royal commission is held i suspect a lot of lnp party faithful will face the docks..
6CAN customers are getting lucky... thanks to failure it seems.
There's quite a few getting free upgrades...must be election time !! Must keep customers happy at all cost.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
It does appear to me that the party system is a significant problem.
Should ban party politics. It doesn't work. To much power play, corruption and abuse .
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
We are further handicapped in Australia by the two party preferred system, in that even if you put an independent or small party as #1, if that one doesn't get enough votes your vote will go to whichever big party is next in line on your ballot. As a result Liberal or Labor still get the vote, even if you don't want them to.
This is why you have to work out who will be the last two in the battle for the seat and make sure you put the one you do not want to get in LAST. Don't worry about how to vote cards.
There is nothing more sobering for a politician that to lose his/her seat.
The NBN is such a way of getting the candidates to start listening.
to the point i already know anyone riding on the curt tails of turnbull will not see office if by some miracle the lnp retain offfice if or when the federal royal commission is held i suspect a lot of lnp party faithful will face the docks..
I sincerely hope this is true.
http://www.buddeblog.com.au/
We are spending close to $60 billion dollars on our national digital economy infrastructure and we need to do it wisely and effectively.
This has nothing to do with doing things cheaper and faster; as a matter of fact I would argue for slowing it down, to make sure we do it right.
The fact that the real questions regarding the validity of the MtM cannot be questioned also became clear in a recent report that Analysys Mason wrote for the ACCC. It came to the conclusion that the MtM approach is doable and deliverable within the context of the cheaper and faster policy of the government. But the research company had been explicitly forbidden to take other technologies into account. It is like investigating the road system between Sydney and Melbourne but not taking the freeways into account.
When you look at the extent of what Analysys Mason recently recommended to the Irish Government with their NBP, you'll get an idea of some of what is clearly missing from the current NBN/MTM plans.
Suggest everyone go read the whole Paul Budde article.
yup they talk a good ploy of misinformation...
http://www.buddeblog.com.au/
AS usual more pertinent and wise comments on NBN. Recommend reading the whole article....
The issue has been so incredibly politicised that it is almost impossible to cut through all the noise.
This has nothing to do with doing things cheaper and faster;
After all those years neither the government nor the NBN company have come up with a plan for what we need the NBN for; and what it means for the economy of our country.
All Minister Christopher Pyne had to say on the NBN was that it allows us to download five movies at the same time. How absurd is that? It is not a comment that you would expect from an informed senior political leader. Is that what his vision is for the country, for the NBN � the ability to download Netflix movies? I find that insulting.
NBN is a monopoly service, ..... why is there a need to hide information? Why is there such an issue around leaked documents? There can�t be much commercial-in-confidence information in what is a monopoly business?
There is no way the monopoly company can argue that the leaks are undermining them commercially.
The MtM policy severely undermines other long-term government policies such as innovation and smart cities. All those involved in innovation and smart cities are saying quite clearly that in order to get the proper benefits from these policies a full fibre network is required.
If the rest of the world can find bi-partisan solutions for its digital infrastructure why can�t we do the same?
But the research company had been explicitly forbidden to take other technologies into account
Yeah, that was a crock.. Another skewered partisan review..
Just getting back to the bit where the Comms minister Mitchel Fairfield skipped attending that meeting I can assure you (Because I know what the Libs are like) that they would be calling out Labor for doing the same thing too if they ever skipped such a meeting. But because the Libs are in the High chair at the moment, everyone else is too scared to speak up because the Libs will likely make more lies and made believe crap up.
It just sickens me as a Citizen of this Country that we have a Person in the Communications chair that is ignorant and doesn't care for our future. Any other country right now as I type is at least trying to listen to their citizens and trying to make ends meet. But us??? Ohhh no, we instead have an ignorant person who's not interested in our needs or wants and wants to make sure we are as far back as we are for the future, good game Mr Fairfield.
Also their so called innovation thing that the current Government is trying to push won't work well without a Modern National broadband Network.
But because the Libs are in the High chair at the moment, everyone else is too scared to speak up because the Libs will likely make more lies and made believe crap up.
If you want any proof on who controls the media just look at how much coverage the AFP raids are getting....
Yup that's right. Zilch, nada, nothing... outside of specialist outlets like ZDNet, Delimiter and ABC news everyone else has pretty much moved on and forgotten about it. Now can you imagine if the reverse happened and it happened to the Libs? We would not be hearing the end of it for weeks on end until the election.
Just saw the 4 minutes on the guardian about Q&A, the most cheers came when Tony said politics got involved and he is 100% right there
Comms Minister skips Internet Australia meeting in home town.
Oh he has some nerve... That won't look good on him and Turnbull, just shows how much they have to hide!
Not NBN directly but this sums up the "your home doesn't need those speeds" argument -
EEF members' main concerns for broadband are that it's cost effective, reliable, and resilient, as well as future proof. Speed doesn't factor into it nearly as much.
Pardon my french but thats absolutely bullshit. Its about all of the above there, if they say speed isnt a factor then they shouldn't be there.
Its about all of the above there, if they say speed isnt a factor then they shouldn't be there.
They didn't say it's a factor, they said it's less important than being reliable and cost effective � if it's unaffordable or drops out five times a day then the speed it's capable of doesn't really matter (in many situation)... I'd rather have a rock solid 25Mbps all day every day than 100Mbps that will stop working in the middle of a phone call, or work video conference, or game, or netflix stream, or ...
They didn't say it's a factor, they said it's less important than being reliable and cost effective � if it's unaffordable or drops out five times a day then the speed it's capable of doesn't really matter (in many situation)... I'd rather have a rock solid 25Mbps all day every day than 100Mbps that will stop working in the middle of a phone call, or work video conference, or game, or netflix stream, or ...
I would and still argue today that 25mbps isn't enough but i do see the point, however speed is STILL an important factor and they are making it sound like it isn't. I especially want more upload speeds which we are not getting with this politicised crap
Wait until my die hard liberal voting family find out that they are going to have to forkout moolah to come up with a solution for my Grandmothers Call Alert system.
Well if they are really true blue die hard liberals then they'll come up with a plan to shift those costs to someone else. Have you got your credit card ready? ;)
They didn't say it's a factor, they said it's less important than being reliable and cost effective � if it's unaffordable or drops out five times a day then the speed it's capable of doesn't really matter (in many situation)... I'd rather have a rock solid 25Mbps all day every day than 100Mbps that will stop working in the middle of a phone call, or work video conference, or game, or netflix stream, or ...
There are dropouts and dropouts. In a previous residence of mine I had an ADSL line that dropped out many more than 5 times a day (as it turned out due to rodent activity on wiring internal to the apartment, but that's a different story.) but because my PPOE session stayed up and waited for the modem to retrain, it really only affected voip calls.
The other saving grace is that if your DSL line drops out once a day because of poor line quality, chances are it will be dropping out dozens of times a day and will get flagged for maintenance under NBN rules. The number "5" is chosen not because anyone is saying 5 dropouts a day are acceptable, but because they don't want to be flagging a line for maintenance because someone rebooted their modem a couple of times.
yup they talk a good ploy of misinformation...
Well, it's 'good' only from the coalition point of view.
First they told serial lies about the NBN, so (exactly as intended) all the non-tech, non-committed people got the impression it must be an expensive disaster.
Then they moved to stage two of their campaign and rolled out the even bigger porky that they could deliver their MTM to provide Faster! Cheaper! Quicker! access for everybody.
And now? It looks that the MTM we are getting will be at least as expensive over time as the NBN � but will be grossly inferior from day one, a deficiency which will become greater with every passing decade.
i still wondering why malcs got the comms portfolio in the1st place given the majors of conflicts of interest of industry he has.. though the case of irony it would benefithis business in other areas with reliable infrastructure..
Talk about NBN continues...on the ABC Drum today. Towards end of programme.
A fair bit of ignorance as to what NBN is but.... it is in the arena...increasingly.
Even the known right of centre Creighton, The Australian, concedes to get on with it .."and it might help innovation" (?) ....
Sensible stuff early from Peter Martin Economist, the Age, and Nicki Hutley Economist Urbis.
In a previous residence of mine I had an ADSL line that dropped out many more than 5 times a day (as it turned out due to rodent activity on wiring internal to the apartment, but that's a different story.) but because my PPOE session stayed up and waited for the modem to retrain, it really only affected voip calls.
I assume you have that the wrong way around � you can have a PPP dropout while retaining line sync, but you cannot have an ADSL dropout while maintaining a PPP connection.
The number "5" is chosen not because anyone is saying 5 dropouts a day are acceptable, but because they don't want to be flagging a line for maintenance because someone rebooted their modem a couple of times.
There is no active monitoring that would necessitate such a threshold � the cause of dropouts is only (theoretically) investigated by nbn� if a fault is lodged by the RSP after going through rigorous standard troubleshooting with the customer (triggered by the customer contacting the RSP).
Moved from the NBN HFC thread....
Once full structural separation has been achieved, the first item on the agenda will to replace all the bits that Telstra still owns.
You mean replace the pits, pipes, conduits, fibre and exchanges?
What about the long term lease payments NBNCo has to pay Telstra for the pits, pipes, conduits, fibre and exchanges under the Telstra NBN Co agreement?
Likewise, from the HFC thread:
So at the moment ARPU difference between the technologies is negligible.
That is not true at all � not only are there an order of magnitude more customers on FTTP than FTTN overall, there are double the percentage of 100/40 customers on FTTP than there are up-to-100/40 on FTTN... combine those two factors together and ARPU has to be significantly higher on FTTP.
I fully expect FTTN users will start to get dissatisfied with their speed at some stage.
When they do, they won't be able to get a higher speed so they won't be stupid enough to pay more.
They will reduce it, but hit you with something like a $300 contract break fee if Telstra is anything to go by.
I find that incredibly hard to believe.
That is not true at all � not only are there an order of magnitude more customers on FTTP than FTTN overall
Some FTTP areas have had up to 93% takeup. That is impressive.
I assume you have that the wrong way around � you can have a PPP dropout while retaining line sync, but you cannot have an ADSL dropout while maintaining a PPP connection.
In fact you can, but perhaps only if you have a separate modem and router like I did. The Ethernet line was not dropped by the modem while it was resyncing, and consequently the router just kept sending packets. Once the line resynced, the PPP session carried on as before. I assume it would get dropped if the resync took too long, because the server (BRAS) is supposed to send out LCP echo request packets periodically to check the status of the PPPoE session.
On the other hand if I unplugged the Enet cable between the router and the modem, the link went down instantly, my sessions all got ICMP Host unreachable packets and all my SSH (or other TCP) sessions would drop.
There is no active monitoring that would necessitate such a threshold � the cause of dropouts is only (theoretically) investigated by nbn� if a fault is lodged by the RSP after going through rigorous standard troubleshooting with the customer (triggered by the customer contacting the RSP).
Yeah. but the stats are kept in the DSLAM. Those counters would be monitored somewhere. But you may be right that they don't make anything happen until someone phones up and complains. Then someone will look at the counter and put it on maint if the counter for the last 24 hours is > 5 or say it's fine if it is <5.
You mean replace the pits, pipes, conduits, fibre and exchanges?
What about the long term lease payments NBNCo has to pay Telstra for the pits, pipes, conduits, fibre and exchanges under the Telstra NBN Co agreement?
I guess it depends how good those pits, pipes and conduits are. I am assuming most of them will not meet NBNco design rules and not be suitable for the big fibre cables they use for FTTP. I may be wrong on that.
http://www.sunshinecoastdail
THERE seems to be an assumption in the structuring and marketing of the National Broadband Network that the average punter is too dumb to comprehend the differences in speed offered through the network's various models and incarnations.
That assumption is exemplified by the marketing campaigns of the various telcos hocking NBN, where download limits are shouted in big pastel coloured numbers while finding the actual speeds takes so much clicking around you can only assume the telco would prefer not to talk about it.
Given all that, along with the high cost of plans with the highest speeds, it's really not at all surprising NewsCorp's The Australian was able to shout a few months ago that fewer than 25% of new NBN customers were opting for the fastest plan.
It feels as though we're all being taken for fools.
Which reminds me of something very truthful that the head of Telstra's NZ equivalent was recorded as saying 10 years ago. Something that we see clear evidence of happening still today in Australia from both NBN Co and some major ISP's/RSP's with broadband speeds and different broadband technologies.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/bu
Gattung admits Telcos not being straight
Telecom's public image may take another hit as an audio clip of Theresa Gattung circulating on the internet has the chief executive admitting to the company "not being straight up" with customers.
"Think about pricing. What has every telco in the world done in the past? It's used confusion as its chief marketing tool. And that's fine," said Gattung in a speech recorded on March 20.
"You could argue that that's how all of us keep calling prices up and get those revenues, high-margin businesses, keep them going for a lot longer than would have been the case.
"But at some level, whether they consciously articulate or not, customers know that's what the game has been. They know we're not being straight up."
Gattung made the comments as part of a speech given to analysts in Sydney about the company's plans for the future.
"What she was talking about is the new paradigm that we're moving to ... which is all about having a much more transparent, open and easier-to-understand set of products so that customers have a lot more control."
I guess it depends how good those pits, pipes and conduits are. I am assuming most of them will not meet NBNco design rules and not be suitable for the big fibre cables they use for FTTP. I may be wrong on that.
Actually, I guess it firstly depends on whether the economics and ROI stacks up for NBN Co in building their own pits, pipes and conduits. I daresay it does not. And with either a lock of poles where power has gone underground, or poles that are not longer in the possession or control of State Governments, I think you may be 100% wrong on that.
With the existing liabilities for lease payments to utilise Telstra's CAN network assets of pits, pipes, conduits and exchanges (that lasts for how many years?) the economic return nail in the coffin, without a substantial hike in wholesale and retail NBN prices. With the added threat of either the poles and wires owners (current or new owners or strategic partners) or Telstra competing with their own FTTP/5G/Hybrid wireless/fixed line networks.
Some FTTP areas have had up to 93% takeup. That is impressive
To be fair that may be because the 18mth rule is invoked and full cutover has to take place. Must say it belies the LNP arguments that take up is bad which it isn't anyway � well exceeds original forecasts. slagging for the sake of slagging....
I am assuming most of them will not meet NBNco design rules and not be suitable for the big fibre cables they use for FTTP. I may be wrong on that.
I would have thought OF cable has advanced a fair bit and would be smaller now anyway and certainly OF smaller than coax so where's the problem...?
To be fair that may be because the 18mth rule is invoked and full cutover has to take place. Must say it belies the LNP arguments that take up is bad which it isn't anyway � well exceeds original forecasts. slagging for the sake of slagging....
Comparison of all SAM's that went RFS after 01/01/16 and take up data is from end of March.
Tech | SAMs RFS | # Premises | # Activated | % Take Up
FTTP | 41 | 97,679 | 16,445 | 16.8%
FTTN | 60 | 127,040 | 12,123 | 9.5%
FTTB | 71 | 17,441 | 567 | 3.3%
Edit: Will add all the SAM's that went RFS after 25/09/15 (when 1st FTTN site went SAM) up to end March (Made a mistake, correcting)$ Tech | SAMs RFS | # Premises | # Activated | % Take Up
FTTP | 303 | 578,608 | 231,611 | 40.0%
FTTN | 96 | 204,240 | 33,798 | 16.5%
FTTB | 118 | 29,007 | 1,359 | 4.7%
Tech | SAMs RFS | # Premises | # Activated | % Take Up
FTTP | 135 | 270,586 | 79,610 | 29.4%
FTTN | 95 | 203,302 | 33,678 | 16.6%
FTTB | 117 | 28,370 | 1,249 | 4.4%
Comparison of all SAM's that went RFS after 01/01/16 and take up data is from end of March.
Tech | SAMs RFS | # Premises | # Activated | % Take Up
FTTP | 41 | 97,679 | 16,445 | 16.8%
FTTN | 60 | 127,040 | 12,123 | 9.5%
FTTB | 71 | 17,441 | 567 | 3.3%
Makes a mockery of Deputy Prime Minister Joyce's claims on Q&A last night......
I would have thought OF cable has advanced a fair bit and would be smaller now anyway and certainly OF smaller than coax so where's the problem...?
Bending radius. I personally have been bitten by this one. Pipe plenty big enough for the next bigger cable size, but bending radii too small for the bigger cable. The design rules for new estates are very particular about bending radii and certainly don't allow plenty of things that copper cables just wouldn't care about.
Makes a mockery of Deputy Prime Minister Joyce's claims on Q&A last night......
All helpfully mapped out here since the 1st SAM went RFS
- https://nbnmtm.cartodb.com/vi
Edit: Will add all the SAM's that went RFS after 25/09/15 (when 1st FTTN site went SAM) up to end March
Wow, this is what Frank was talking about, even if FTTN is quicker to build it is not an advantage if the takeup lags too far behind FTTP.
A faster FTTN build with lagging takeup burns through cash.
Bending radius. I personally have been bitten by this one.
have a look at this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUBRjiVhJTs
HFC has the same problems of bend radius as most optical fibres, just that a 10 times of a 10mm diameter HFC cable is much bigger than 10 times a 3 mm diameter SMOF fibre NBN Co was using for lead ins
A faster FTTN build with lagging takeup burns through cash.
I did rough estimates months ago somewhere in these forums. Even if FTTP takes an extra 90 days (which seems roughly where it is forecast to be at the moment), FTTP will be already earning more revenue within the first 3 months than FTTN will be at 6+ months. At that point the CAPEX is done, the OPEX is lower, and FTTP sites are just raking in the dough.
I dread to think what will happen with the 18m cutoff for FTTN. At least with FTTP the change is very visible to every home owner, but with FTTN if you don't follow the rollout, you may not even know that it has occured. Add on to the fact that people don't lose their copper and will cling on further to their special services, I see the 18m easily blowing out to 24m+ for the first FTTN sites.
fttn/fttdp might be an applicable install 10-20 years ago, today it is hardly worth given the distance limitations copper as service medium..
whilst the plan indicates fttn/fttdp as a cheaper to install solution, though go and ask telstra to install vdsl for you and will find a $5,000 PRICE tag you will have pay at a bare minimum..
now add 300-1,500 services at that price and a unreliable copper service past 1km and past 100meters from the pit a viability of vdsl/lan services..
Mac i suspect we are looking a 20-45 trillion on the non existent repairs and maintenance contracts to telstra for the next 30-60 years for the copper..
So it seems I'm am going to get some airtime on 612 abc this morning at 8:45. Give me some pertinent talking points people.
So it seems I'm am going to get some airtime on 612 abc this morning at 8:45. Give me some pertinent talking points people.
Upload and network reliability. ie. Rain, sun, degrading copper. Power usage == a whole power station for nodes.
Mac i suspect we are looking a 20-45 trillion on the non existent repairs and maintenance contracts to telstra for the next 30-60 years for the copper
As a TLS shareholder I welcome that news!
Not that I believe the figures or that the FTTN solution is as terrible as made out here.
Power usage == a whole power station for nodes.
Here we go again, typical for posts on this site � ultra exaggeration. Either a mini power station or the nodes just self replicated a thousand times. There is enough genuine data to argue each side of this technical/economic debate without resorting to outlandish claims. Mind you, publish it on the web and it becomes fact eh!
Wow, this is what Frank was talking about, even if FTTN is quicker to build it is not an advantage if the takeup lags too far behind FTTP.
A faster FTTN build with lagging takeup burns through cash.
In one all inclusive line that says it all:
IF the Cost per Premises is lower on FTTN in comparison to FTTP, then the benefit is definitely wasted on the lower uptake rate on FTTN in comparison to FTTP while NBN Co is rolling out faster FTTN.
Good morning ... :)
Nice information Nigel :) great work!
Hopefully everybody could understand my croaky voice.
That assumption is exemplified by the marketing campaigns of the various telcos hocking NBN, where download limits are shouted in big pastel coloured numbers while finding the actual speeds takes so much clicking around you can only assume the telco would prefer not to talk about it.
That irks me seriously..
The Telstra ad is the worst. Picture a family of several members, on several devices, movies , online games etc and then the claim..
"All at the same time"
No speed is mentioned.. yet they claim by being connected to the nbn , you can do all these things without buffering..
Well you can't do that on 12/1. My son can tell you that. He's like that family in the ad. I doubt if you could do it on 25/2.
The charity organization I work for has 32 connectors to one line.
Dont tell me 25/2 will be OK for them.
So it seems I'm am going to get some airtime on 612 abc this morning at 8:45. Give me some pertinent talking points people.
Is there a link to stream or transcript.?
At least with FTTP the change is very visible to every home owner, but with FTTN if you don't follow the rollout, you may not even know that it has occured.
I wonder how much this point has affected take up rates of FTTN? Especially with the later FTTP installs (where every PCD was installed whether you asked for it or not) it was bleedingly obvious that a new connection would be available soon so people looked into it. There is a very high likelihood that many people in the FTTN footprint don't even know it is being installed (if they don't happen to drive past a node while it is being worked on).
Have nbn been sending out mail about the FTTN rollouts in those areas? I moved away from my last house before they started coming.
A faster FTTN build with lagging takeup burns through cash.
That's the NBN Co financial death spiral I was banging on about the other day in Whirlpool.
Here we go again, typical for posts on this site � ultra exaggeration. Either a mini power station
Its is roughly a powerstation overall needed for 50,000+ nodes
or the nodes just self replicated a thousand times
No idea what you mean by that.
Is there a link to stream or transcript.?
Should be a link here not long after the show. Local time of interview was 8:47am I think it was. I got around 10min in.
http://www.abc.net.au/brisba
Have nbn been sending out mail about the FTTN rollouts in those areas? I moved away from my last house before they started coming.
FTTN is rolling out around me and it is very hard to miss. As it approached the date to go live the service providers, particularly Telstra, have ramped up publicity and feet on the ground in shopping centres etc.
Also it is interesting that it appears a lot of the effort, and cost presumably, has gone into the laying of purpose built new conduit to provide the OF link to all the nodes. So presumably when the whiners have their way and all this is replaced by FTTP, it should be fairly easy to pull some of that lovely new Corning Clearcurve fibre through the ducts from the node.
On the other hand the negative campaign is gaining traction with help from poorly written articles in the local rag. Several articles pointed to poor service in Newcastle and neatly stepped over the fact they all seemed to relate to the backhaul problems of one small provider. Even Paul Budde was less than clear in his comments regarding the Hamilton exchange. Then problem referenced would have been the same even if these customers were on FTTP, it had nothing to do with the copper in the exchange.
So presumably when the whiners have their way and all this is replaced by FTTP, it should be fairly easy to pull some of that lovely new Corning Clearcurve fibre through the ducts from the node.
Except the Fibre doesn't come from the node. It has to be taken to the fsam . The node becomes obsolete.
Its is roughly a powerstation overall needed for 50,000+ nodes
By my reckoning there are 4 main power stations in NSW, the smallest producing 1400Mw. Show me your maths. 50,000 nodes compared with 2.8 million households in NSW using some of that power output to run lights, power, heating, hot water etc never mind all the industrial use. See Computer World 10/6/14 "FTTN power bill $89m per year. Does not seem like much of a power station.
Except the Fibre doesn't come from the node. It has to be taken to the fsam . The node becomes obsolete.
Rubbish. It can be repurposed. Technology creep, we can't have a smaller FSAM where some of the nodes are. In any case there is now a lot of the fibre around all these main streets, presumably with unused fibres in the bundle also. Just because FTTP plan had the FSAM back at the exchange with OF running out to the GPON links for each bundle of houses does not mean there are no alternative topologies that could work when required.
it should be fairly easy to pull some of that lovely new Corning Clearcurve fibre through the ducts from the node
The FTTP will not be connected at the node...
Rubbish. It can be repurposed.
Nope...that is why the FoD is bypassing the node completely today.
presumably with unused fibres in the bundle also
Nope...4 strands per node.
The FTTP will not be connected at the node...
Think outside the nine dots. Yes current FTTP does not work that way and yes the nodes becomes redundant, but it is a location with power etc and could have a mini FSAM installed etc feeding the local loop (that would need to be installed). OK there could be some cost penalties but surely simpler than rejigging the whole damn lot.
So it seems I'm am going to get some airtime on 612 abc this morning at 8:45. Give me some pertinent talking points people
Yes, I heard you Nigel... good effort you got some good points across, I think the ABC presenter was stunned with some of the information.
It is got that this issue seems to be getting a run on 612 ABC and lots of business people are coming on saying how the current MTM mess is making it very difficult to run their businesses.
There looks to be some momentum there, if the ALP wants to win the election they need to raise the profile of this issue.... I think they will do that .. it is just a question of timing ... the clock is ticking ... I expect the alarm to go off soon. :)
Nope...4 strands per node.
And where I am there are 5 nodes within half a km, so 20 fibres and basically fed by the same main conduit. So how many OF from the FSAM to here under your plan to feed each of the 32 houses on a loop. Remember OF has "unlimited" potential. As I said just rethink the design move some of the stuff closer to the end point.
The node becomes obsolete.
Correct from FTTN to FTTP on GPON requires a complete rebuild. I would not call it a upgrade in engineer terms.
Also there is still the contributing issue of the Network Design Rules that have been changed. No redundant design on FTTN.
Correct from FTTN to FTTP on GPON requires a complete rebuild. I would not call it a upgrade in engineer terms.
So making FOD even more impossible than it already is.
So making FOD even more impossible than it already is.
FoD in the current offering is just a service that is there for political arguments.
Practically it is not worth a cent, if you consider the default bandwidth capacity towards to the Node. On a busy evening, after 18 months of activation, the available default bandwidth becomes rather crowded and the opportunity to receive even remotely the speed purchased on FoD I would consider impossible.
Why pay first up front for a cost calculation, then for the implementation and then to discover you don't get the speed?
Why pay first up front for a cost calculation, then for the implementation and then to discover you don't get the speed?
Yup, how nice the public has been sold a dud.
:0<
Correct from FTTN to FTTP on GPON requires a complete rebuild. I would not call it a upgrade in engineer terms.
agreed, though I believe they are simply sticking multiports at the node and using the spare strands from that to run out to max 32 premises per multiport. it is essentially a separate network, you are right. end user is paying for it all � it is meant to be at no cost to NBN, in line with current govt policy.
end user is paying for it all
In engineering terms there is always a solution, in cost-economical terms mostly there isn't. It mostly boils down to one question from the engineer to his manager: "How much are you willing to pay for it?" :)
Calculated a rebuild in the past, top of my head, around A$50b if the FTTN would be rolled out completely. The longer the FTTN roll out continues, the closer we get to this number. If a switch to FTTP (perhaps in combination with FTTdp) is required after the election, the balance act will be to stop the roll out of FTTN as cost-economically as possible while at the same time start-up a FTTP roll out as soon as possible.
I understand the NBN-policy is in the ALP budget which is financial sensible. It is the kind of sensibility I would expect from NBN Co in regards to their Corporate Plan. Claiming that FTTP is the end solution, implies that financial responsibility should be taken how we get to that end point.
A desktop analysis into a rebuild to FTTP would be a good idea. Likely Professor Ergas can offer a helping hand. :P
Yes current FTTP does not work that way and yes the nodes becomes redundant
Which is what will happen with a full FTTP roll out.
You cannot simply upgrade fttn to fttp � it doesn't work that way for a number of reasons.
The LNP have stuck us with a solution that isn't even adequate for today's needs.
A desktop analysis into a rebuild to FTTP would be a good idea. Likely Professor Ergas can offer a helping hand. :P
$25b for the lnp model and $100b for the alp model..?
$25b for the lnp model and $100b for the alp model..?
$25 for the lnp model and $100b for the alp model ... sorry that is a statement of net worth, not build cost.
$25 for the lnp model and $100b for the alp model ... sorry that is a statement of net worth, not build cost
Lol.. depends on ergas interpretation..
Rubbish. It can be repurposed. Technology creep, we can't have a smaller FSAM where some of the nodes are. In any case there is now a lot of the fibre around all these main streets, presumably with unused fibres in the bundle also. Just because FTTP plan had the FSAM back at the exchange with OF running out to the GPON links for each bundle of houses does not mean there are no alternative topologies that could work when required.
No point. The fibre is piss easy to run from the FSAM � because the ducts have already been cleared to run the fibre for the node. There is no reason to run mini-fsams. Just run the FSAM � run the fibre out through the pre-cleared ducts and you are good to go.
The nodes are redundant. A waste of time, as waste of space. The FSAMS can sit in the best choice for their location, not on the side of the road.
There is a very high likelihood that many people in the FTTN footprint don't even know it is being installed (if they don't happen to drive past a node while it is being worked on).
That's still no reason to think that the NBNis bring installed in your area. A node is being installed near my son's school in the Blue Mountains (did a lovely job wrecking some folk's footpath and fence), and there isn't an NBN symbol in sight. My missus had no idea it was NBN related, even though I talk her ear off about the issue.
Combine that with the older population up here, and it's likely bugger all people know NBN is rolling out without searching for the info.
HFC has the same problems of bend radius as most optical fibres, just that a 10 times of a 10mm diameter HFC cable is much bigger than 10 times a 3 mm diameter SMOF fibre NBN Co was using for lead ins
The true cost of HFC is not yet known but obviously it will all be in the HFC lead-in. From my reading everything else just seems to be using the existing HFC plant, other than the CMTS:
DO they need to deploy Fibre like they would for FTTP or FTTN for HFC. I have seen a lot of NBN workers in Yangebup where I live and haven't seen any Fibre being deployed.
Comparison of all SAM's that went RFS after 01/01/16 and take up data is from end of March.
You will see the same with HFC, a relatively low take-up rate. If you are a Bigpond cable user going to NBN will be a step back: you lose your landline and need to rely on the more unreliable VoIP and if you have Fast cable with 35 Mbps you will be downgraded to 25 Mbps NBN (reduction of 30%!). ADSL users with new HFC NTDs may be excited by this new technology (which they had access to already but maybe never realised) and be the majority of early adopters.
And where I am there are 5 nodes within half a km
Is that all, around here we have about 10 nodes within half a km
Yes current FTTP does not work that way and yes the nodes becomes redundant, but it is a location with power etc and could have a mini FSAM installed etc feeding the local loop (that would need to be installed).
And the current FTTN customers do what while this is happening?
And the current FTTN customers do what while this is happening?
"Who cares, they should move to somewhere that has better connectivity"
/sarcasm
or that the FTTN solution is as terrible as made out here
Don't take the word of posters here but check out the posts of those suffering through the FTTN rollout on FTTN threads like NBN � Cannington WA. There are very few happy customers..... Comparatively for FTTP rollout FTTP went like a dream while it was going and improving as it went both delivery and cost wise. It must be costing a fortune to fix all the problems, and RSPs are giving upgrades just to keep customers happy which also costs them. 'Terrible' may be a kind word in this instance....
Hopefully everybody could understand my croaky voice.
Is there a transcipt or summary...?
Is there a transcipt or summary...?
Not that I'm aware of. It's 9 minutes.
http://blogs.abc.net
http://www.computerworld.com
Hi Australia how's your 25mbps going?
Here it is.
Good interview, it's amazing the difference between an interview with someone who knows what they're talking about and a minister dumped with the portfolio regurgitating factually incorrect talking points prepared by someone else.
it's amazing the difference between an interview with someone who knows what they're talking about
It's like stumbling into oppsiteland
Here it is.
Go easy on me :)
http://blogs.abc.net.au/qu
Nice one mate.
Well worth listening too.
By my reckoning there are 4 main power stations in NSW, the smallest producing 1400Mw.
That's NSW, sure, here in WA, our best powerplant does 854MW, Western Power can't even get things right when it comes to keeping power up and running.
Not that I'm aware of. It's 9 minutes.
http://blogs.abc.net
Really good listen, clear, accessible and to the point. Thank you.
It's like stumbling into oppsiteland
Nice one mate.
Well worth listening too.
Thanks, good work. Your voice was nice and clear.
Really good listen, clear, accessible and to the point. Thank you.
Cheers guys/girls.
I was surprised I was given that much airtime. Although it felt like it was over too fast. I'll have to do write up a list of talking points if I get another opportunity.
There looks to be some momentum there, if the ALP wants to win the election they need to raise the profile of this issue....
They have to be allowed to air NBN issues.... I heard on ABC radio this morning that Shorten's sound bite this morning (to be done later) would include NBN (first point mentioned) etc in Labor economic Plan announcement. Seen minimal footage of Shortens piece and summaries do not include reference to NBN, in fact Cormann and Turnbull got more air time criticising the announcement. Have to laugh at Turnbull's 'glossy brochure' attack � take a look at his "Our Economic Plan' which they all carry around Abbottesque like. Their short section referring to NBN is Fifields tweet posted earlier and criticises Labor rather than present their own Economic Plan � political deflection when you have nothing good to present....
Why pay first up front for a cost calculation, then for the implementation and then to discover you don't get the speed?
That's what FTTN is all about isn't it?
Cheers guys/girls.
You said that NBN Co was being misleading and dishonest about activating FTTN premises. What did you mean about that?
You said that NBN Co was being misleading and dishonest about activating FTTN premises. What did you mean about that?
They are claiming that areas are RFS when nobody in those areas is able to successfully order a service.
Not that I'm aware of. It's 9 minutes.
http://blogs.abc.net
Great stuff Nigel...hope there were lots of Qlder's listening and hopefully a few media outlets will be prompted into action, after all they always want controversy...here's their chance.
They are claiming that areas are RFS when nobody in those areas is able to successfully order a service.
Didn't that used to be a bad thing? ;)
They are claiming that areas are RFS when nobody in those areas is able to successfully order a service.
If it's a problem with the system then people need to be sure about that.
How many premises have been affected and what should be done about it?
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem.
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem.
Wasn't Cannington mentioned?
Wasn't Cannington mentioned?
No. Besides, one area doesn't indicate a problem with the system.
Go easy on me :)
No need too, you were brilliant!
You got to the fact of the matter and demonstrated why the current situation is a farce.
I expect the AFP will be readying a raid on you.../sarcasm
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem.
It's up to the LNP to prove otherwise.
Since when has the truth been central to the nbn policy debate?
Everything Nigel stated is true.
How many premises have been affected and what should be done about it?
Surely you should be pushing for Turnbull's NBN Co to change their reporting like you expected Labor's NBN Co to?
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem.
No. Besides, one area doesn't indicate a problem with the system.
Bahahaha! Typical. So Nigel cant win. He has to name a place to be given credibility, but it doesn't matter anyway if he does name a place because Turnbull's NBN Co cant be wrong.
.
one area doesn't indicate a problem
Sure, check individual FTTN deployment threads, there are lots of posts from lots of deployment regions not able to connect for various different reasons. The gist of it is, there does not appear to be a standardised FTTN installation, most require some kind of technical intervention. This wasn't required for FTTP.
Since when has the truth been central to the nbn policy debate?
So it could be a case of Whirlpool exaggerating as usual.
They are claiming that areas are RFS when nobody in those areas is able to successfully order a service.
Honestly, the only rollout rates worth reflection are the connection stats � 76% on Labor-contracted FTTP, 4% on FTTN.
So it could be a case of Whirlpool exaggerating as usual.
Exaggeration like saying a network will cost 29.5 billion and then it magically doubles?
You are sounding a bit panicked their KF � it's not like the mtm is a vote loser for Malcolm as people are starting to realise who is responsible for the lack of improvement.
The gist of it is, there does not appear to be a standardised FTTN installation, most require some kind of technical intervention.
This should'nt be a surprise to NBN Co because it was made apparent in their trials. The speeds they quoted werent possible without multiple visits from technicians to "tweak" the connection. People asked the question back then, that if this was required for all connections, how is the MTM going to be cheaper or faster, because it adds a massive extra level of cost and scheduling issues on top of an already expensive, slow rollout.
Its a shame people like Kingforce didn't ask the hard questions of the Libs back then. Maybe now we would have a better outcome.
Maybe now we would have a better outcome.
They still support MTM so I doubt it.
Good work Nigel � if you need to be bailed out let us know.
He has to name a place to be given credibility,
It would be a start.
But it doesn't matter anyway if he does name a place because Turnbull's NBN Co cant be wrong.
That's why I say there needs to be numbers to confirm that this is a widespread problem.
Just before the 2013 election the AFR reported that one third of premises couldn't order a service on Labor's NBN (service class zero). The Coalition strategy was to lower the capex cost of the build which would give flexibility to pay contractors more.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Exaggeration like saying a network will cost 29.5 billion and then it magically doubles?
Almost as good as 25mbps for everyone by 2016! Or FTTN will only take 6 months to start rolling out? Or, the copper wont need much remediation? The list goes on and on!
St Marys POI. 5CPK3 and 5CPK10. Cannington. There's others.
So it could be a case of Whirlpool exaggerating as usual.
No. You asked for examples and you were given them.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem
What do the liberals propose?
Exaggeration like saying a network will cost 29.5 billion and then it magically doubles?
Well you know them pixie dusting fairies pop up every now and then.
Like the same ones that fixes the copper network.
Huh!
:0<
If it's a problem with the system then people need to be sure about that.
It's a problem with honesty.
How many premises have been affected and what should be done about it?
Many thousands. Are you seriously asking what should be done about it? The answer is obvious � tell the truth.
name one place where this was a problem.
The St Marys thread includes many posters affected by this deception.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises
lol now you're blaming Labor for not explaining how they will fix Turnballs mess of a network?
Almost as good as 25mbps for everyone by 2016! Or FTTN will only take 6 months to start rolling out? Or, the copper wont need much remediation? The list goes on and on!
Yup the LNP trumpet blowing in the ocean really.
It would be a start.
Not really something you should be commenting on.
That's why I say there needs to be numbers to confirm that this is a widespread problem
You said you would ignore them regardless.
Just before the 2013 election the AFR reported that one third of premises couldn't order a service on Labor's NBN (service class zero).
Turnbulls NBN CO is now doing exactly the same thing � funnily enough, just before an election where the Libs are getting drastically desperate for runs on the broadband board. Why aren't you calling them out over this as you do with Labor?
The Coalition strategy was to lower the capex cost of the build and that would give flexibility to pay contractors more. Which has nothing to do with anything that is being discussed, but regardless, hasn't happened. The cost has blown out, and contractors are still unhappy.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Give us a break! This is the Coalition thread. Nothing to do with Labor. The question that needs to be asked is why the Libs have made this mess, and why are they allowing NBN CO to do the exact same things that the Libs criticised Labor for. The only reason we have FTTN is because of Turnbull. What is he doing to fix it?
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Sorry, thats off topic. This is the Liberal Policy thread. What do your mates propose to fix the problem?
Its a big problem, because despite the rhetoric, and the lies (such as Pyne: The nbn is on track), people are realising that they arent getting what was promised. And a significant proportion who are getting it, are running into serious problems. The regional threads in here a full of them.
So I repeat, what is the Liberal Policy to fix this? They are running out of money, and MTM doesnt make enough to cover commercial interest rates. How will they fix it?
That's why I say there needs to be numbers to confirm that this is a widespread problem.
How about $29.5 billion to provide 25Mbps to all by 2016.
The Coalition strategy was to lower the capex cost of the build which would give flexibility to pay contractors more.
Wrong, the Coalition's strategy was to pay contractors more to not do the work, in order to scupper the FTTP rollout.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Stop the stupidity of rolling out FTTN in 2016 using copper that is not fit for purpose.
ive us a break! This is the Coalition thread. Nothing to do with Labor. The question that needs to be asked is why the Libs have made this mess, and why are they allowing NBN CO to do the exact same things that the Libs criticised Labor for. The only reason we have FTTN is because of Turnbull. What is he doing to fix it?
Exactly the libs are absolute hypocrites with the NBN. Labor got blasted for the FTTN proposition and rightly so. But the Libs do it its all just dandy o for them to do it.
Stop the stupidity of rolling out FTTN in 2016 using copper that is not fit for purpose.
Indeed take the logical common sense way.
Give us a break!
We're in the middle of an election. So we need to compare to Labor's plans.
Nigel was specifically asked how the major parties were going to fix the "network shortfall".
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem, it wouldn't matter anyway because no party is willing to do anything about it!
Exactly the libs are absolute hypocrites with the NBN. Labor got blasted for the FTTN proposition and rightly so. But the Libs do it its all just dandy o for them to do it.
The term "Fraudband" was initially coined by a LNP Politician. Fiona Nash I believe, to describe a FTTN rollout that would not meet expectations and blowout costs by 3 to 4 times the estimate.
http://www.fionanash.com.au/
Here we are about 10 years later, and things are going exactly the way Ms Nash predicted. Irony is such a cruel master.
. Irony is such a cruel master.
Yup and sadly the consumers are the ones who are getting bite marks from it.
:0<
Here it is.
Go easy on me :)
http://blogs.abc.net.au/qu
Brilliant job NN
I can just envisage the Labor press announcement of their official NBN policy.
Get the media in place, and then as an entree to the policy announcement with all of the press cameras rolling and microphones on, use at least all of the main points that Nigel raised to destroy the credibility of both NBN Co Management, Turnbull & Fifield and supporting team of the Federal Coalition's NBN/MTM. And whilst there at it, raise the issues of why many people are only connecting at 25/5 or less speeds, because of the way major RSP's are marketing speeds, combined with how NBN Co is pricing speeds and all the inherent issues with the FTTN/B transition period and examples of disconnections, line disruptions and the multitude of stuff ups with migrations and connections to FTTN from poor SLA's and systems between NBNCo and the RSP's, or the inability of NBNCo or the RSP's and all their various contractors and their subcontractors to train enough workers for the NBN Rollout. Plus add in the appalling FoD/Technology change program. All before Labor announces it's NBN policy.
The damage to the Federal Coalition from the resulting publicity from the entree to the NBN Policy might cost the Federal Coalition what they require to maintain power after the election, and as a minimum require them to immediately address and be honest about what is really going in with the FTTN.
Not that I'm aware of. It's 9 minutes.
http://blogs.abc.net
Great interview on ABC NerdyNigel, very good mate. They might get you on as a regular commentator. :-)
So we need to compare to Labor's plans.
What are the Coalition's plans? 25Mbps to all by 2016?
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem
It's lucky for you that nbn� are so transparent, isn't it... can't have facts to prove how badly it's going, can we.
it wouldn't matter anyway because no party is willing to do anything about it!
So you admit that the Coalition have stuffed up and are unwilling to address their failures?
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem, it wouldn't matter anyway because no party is willing to do anything about it!
No party � speak for the LNP, don't think the ALP don't have a plan to fix it.
They have not revealed what they are going to do yet.
Here it is.
Go easy on me :)
http://blogs.abc.net.au/qu
Thanks for mentioning uploads.
Very apt term "Regret capital" of FTTN nodes.
We're in the middle of an election. So we need to compare to Labor's plans
Comparing means that you are willing to analyse both sides. You aren't interested in that. Besides, this is the Coalition thread. Constantly diverting to Labor has no relevance here.
Nigel was specifically asked how the major parties were going to fix the "network shortfall".
So how are the Libs going to fix it? Its their mess. Labor only need to fix Turnbulls mess if they get into power, and you can discuss how they are going to do that in a different thread.
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem, it wouldn't matter anyway because no party is willing to do anything about it!
You are partly right. The Libs are definitely unwilling to fix their mess. I am not sure you meant to admit that though.
Thanks BM. Was rather nerve racking.
If you get the opportunity again as far as NBN policy is concerned you can refer people to LNPs Our Economic Plan or Fifield's tweet...one and the same morsel of rubbish. It demonstrates the complete lack of sincerity of this LNP govt to building a National Broadband Network infrastructure...not a road, so not worth anything to them...
It also demonstrates they have no idea of the contribution a real NBN can have to Innovation, Health, Education, the whole economy etc � more than just for emails.
Anyone else in Nigel's situation might want to, if they have the opportunity, to make comparative reference to the reality of a premises on one side of the road having FTTP and the other side directly opposite having FTTN. I use the example of a house owner with FTTP and his/her business on FTTN.
Comparing what each costs and what each delivers, currently as is the reality for me I pay $89/mth for 100/40 FTTP. For most part FTTN offers 25/5 for similar cost. I get near enough to consistent 100/40 (I get what I pay for) whereas real life experience with FTTN build right now as posted on Whirlpool threads is you get anything to nothing at whatever time of day/night � if you can get connected at all. One then needs to consider what are the upgrade paths...and who pays for the upgrades and how.
One of the many nodes that has just gone in here, has had a brand new second pillar installed to service it (the short one on the right) http://i.imgur.com/53R3OHU.jpg http://i.imgur.com/UsqrVL0.jpg
This is a node that has 5 other nodes a block away from it (pretty sure this pillar is not to service those other nodes, they all have their own pillar already)
And a couple of blocks away, another brand new pillar to go with it's skyscraper node http://i.imgur.com/GSqJ84f.png
If it's a problem with the system
No if about it Kingy, read the FTTN threads or even a couple of posts I have linked directed to you for a response/comment.
How many premises have been affected and what should be done about it?
Way too many to just a process problem � it is total failure. It was reported on ABC radio that Telstra (not NBN Co) announced they and NBN CO had agreed to stop rollout of FTTN until they had "worked out what the problems were...". Quite an admission they have no clues.
What should be done....Do FTTP it is proven success in all facets....
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem.
And you should know it is a problem and where it exists without asking posters here to inform you and do your work for you.
No if about it Kingy, read the FTTN threads or even a couple of posts I have linked directed to you for a response/comment.
Probably conveniently ignored it.
Just before the 2013 election the AFR reported that one third of premises couldn't order a service on Labor's NBN (service class zero).
A large portion of that was what has become FTTB which it took Turnbull over two years to get going, deadline after deadline missed and reset � he failed miserably yet you point the finger at Labor...?? He also screwed up with TPG access by trying to be too smart. Your hero??
The Coalition strategy was to lower the capex cost of the build which would give flexibility to pay contractors more.
Success is doubling teh cost ??? contractors just love Turnbull eh? Another admission of failure...??
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Yes its a problem and they should scrap it asap...only real solution
https://delimiter.com.au/201
FTTN still causing massive outages in Newcastle, says Labor
residents in early stage rollout areas in locations such as Newcastle have previously reported substantial problems with the technology.
This morning Shadow Regional Communications Minister Stephen Jones told the Broadband in the Bush Forum in Queensland that the problems were continuing. Click here to download the full speech in Word Doc format.
Jones said a resident of the Newcastle suburb of Belmont had recently revealed that the FTTN connection she had received was slower than the ADSL connection it replaced.
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem
You have been advised of threads to see the reality for yourself. You obviously choose not to, so end of responses Kingy...wasting everyone's time again...
Not only do people have trouble proving
They've just linked to some examples � you ignored them (as usual).
Jones said a resident of the Newcastle suburb of Belmont had recently revealed that the FTTN connection she had received was slower than the ADSL connection it replaced.
No say it aint so.
The MTM is absolutely perfect we don't need a fibre network.
/sarcky
Talk about monumental screw ups on a high scale.
Thanks Abbott and Turnbull for creating this I wouldn't even spit on it if it was on fire MTM nonsense.
If it's a problem with the system then people need to be sure about that.
How many premises have been affected and what should be done about it?
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem.
Do you backup your points with facts and references?
Why do you care so much, its a non-issue right? Are you desperate?
The FTTN is a mess, the numbers are all fudged up and the LNP is trying to cover its tracks.
If the LNP can put out so much misinformation, then we are well in our rights to say whatever we want. BTW what we say is pretty close to the truth. We see through the shenanigans presented by the LNP.
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem, it wouldn't matter anyway because no party is willing to do anything about it!
That's an odd response.
First, you are are only concerned if it is a serious problem.
Next, you are not bothered because no party is willing to do anything about it. Well, one party is actually entrenching the problem for future generations because it is actively pursuing a policy and plan that builds the problem in and continues with it.
You said that NBN Co was being misleading and dishonest about activating FTTN premises.
Talking about misleading and deceptive conduct, it is my view that NBN Co places the RSPs at risk of breaching the Australian Consumer Law on section 18.
The problem is that NBN Co and the LNP wants us to believe that FTTN is just as good as FTTP speed and reliability wise.
To limit their risk, RSPs got smart and sell first a lower speed and then upgrade the speed when the line results are clear at the End User's end. This move limits their risk of breaching section 18. They are not prepared to sell that Rolls Royce Lemon which has been cooked up by NBN Co and Co. as a Rolls Royce.
Practically, it undermines the political argument that FTTN is a suitable replacement for FTTP and all we need. It is rather interesting that the interests of NBN Co and the LNP are opposite to the interests of the RSPs, yet the RSPs sell the service and not NBN Co or the LNP. It appears that the RSPs are getting caught in the middle, while the End Users slowly discover what a cat in a bag is sold to them.
Obviously "pushing" End Users on lower speeds, obfuscates the demand and it also provides again a false argument to NBN Co and the LNP that higher speeds are not required. *)
In the meanwhile ACCC staff is running around in the hallways, fingers in their ears and shouting as loud as possible "we can't hear you".
In the process Bill Morrow is stating repeatedly that his NBN Co is not responsible for the drop in our internet speed ratings. Perhaps he should wake up to the real world where it is clear that RSPs are not going to take the legal risks of that what the NBN Co and the LNP think are reasonable political risks.
[On edit, added *)]
Jones said a resident of the Newcastle suburb of Belmont had recently revealed that the FTTN connection she had received was slower than the ADSL connection it replaced.
NBN, Turdbull or Liefield will simply state its a rsp congestion issue not NBN faults.
Whilst may be true it is indeed a RSP issue for some (not all) this still tracks back the the cost/demand prices set by NBN.
So in fact it really is NBN fault.
Not only do people have trouble proving that it is a serious problem
Someone has already pointed out 5CPK3 and 5CPK10 � just check the St. Marys thread, what about Cannington and Newcastle. Is that not proof enough?
Kingy � Why do you always put the onus of proof back on the individual posting, yet you constantly post blatant BS and are never compelled to provide any proof of your own?
Here it is.
That's really good stuff, and you finished with the 25Mbps to everyone by now dig. Beautiful work, Nigel.
Here it is.
Go easy on me :)
http://blogs.abc.net.au/qu
Great interview, mate. Good job.
Here it is.
Go easy on me :)
http://blogs.abc.net.au/qu
Just listened. Good job Nigel.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Hi Kingee ...... deflecting as usual I see.
Can I politely suggest that you head over to the Federal Labor NBN policy thread and see what sort of response you get to your question of Labor fixing up a problem with NBN� whilst we still have the LNP in power?
That'd be fun to watch. I'd get out the popcorn for that ...... and I don't even like popcorn!
The problem is that NBN Co and the LNP wants us to believe that FTTN is just as good as FTTP speed and reliability wise.
And it seems part of that process was making the expensive but otherwise apparently pointless change from NBN Co to nbn�. What other possible reason could lie behind such a decision?
The other vital aspect is financial viability. If we remove FTTP sectors from the equation, it is clear that the HFC/FTTN backbone of MTM won't be able to generate sufficient ROI, because inherent limitations mean the higher speed, higher value tiers envisaged in NBN are simply unavailable.
So the higher OPEX � HFC and FTTN � parts of MTM will be unable to generate sufficient ARPU to ensure the ongoing viability of MTM.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
We can't comment on plans to rectify the issue, due to NBN not stating what "network shortfall" means.
It could be a number of factors.
No techs
No copper link between node and pillar (faulty link)
No Connection list (wiring booklet from Telstra)
No software in place for that RFS area for RSPs to send in activation requests.
Until NBN declares to everyone what Network shortfall actually entails noone can specify a remedy.
*edit
It could be that NBN has run out of funds and can't pay Telstra cutover payments so they're delaying until they receive more revenue.
So it seems I'm am going to get some airtime on 612 abc this morning at 8:45. Give me some pertinent talking points people.
Just listened to the podcast. Well done Nigel.
Thanks all for the kind comments. It's time that all of us that know better (well most of us) start making noise in the right directions. I'm glad that most of you think I hit some important points but you forever think afterwards that you missed more. I was surprised at the length of time I was allowed to go on for. The NBN has been a building issue here on ABC Radio mornings with Steve Austin. I mentioned to the producer that it was about time that the media started to take notice of the NBN. One thing that was missed in the Soundcloud recording was a recording of the 25Mbps promise made by Abbott before the last election which also drove home my point at the end.
Thanks all for the kind comments.
You sounded nervous which is quite understandable if not used to speaking publicly. Overall you made some good points but I found a bit of confusion with discussion of ADSl 2 at the same time as FFTN. Different issues depending on the case. Unfortunately this is a common confusion, helped by the lack of understanding by the media, in the current debate. I think it would be helpful if any discussion of problems with the FTTN rollout is quarantined to discuss NBN issues not anything to do with the existing services, which may or may not work well depending on where you are. Similar for the issue of maintenance of the current ADSL and POTS service. Once you are on the other side of the story and getting or trying to get a decent service on FTTN/P/FixedW or Skymuster.
I think it would be helpful if any discussion of problems with the FTTN rollout is quarantined to discuss NBN issues not anything to do with the existing services, which may or may not work well depending on where you are.
When the FTTN rollout is impacting on existing services, it absolutely should be discussed.
discussion of ADSl 2 at the same time as FFTN.
I think you missed the point that when you cut over from ADSL to VDSL, if for some reason there is a problem with your FTTN install, you are stuck. You have no phone and no internet until the issue is fixed. Currently there is a long waiting list for technical assistance.
These issues don't exist with FTTP, or did you miss that?
Just before the 2013 election the AFR reported that one third of premises couldn't order a service on
Just before the 2016 election, 100% of the premises cannot order a service on 5CPK except for the lucky few whose FTTP connections had already commenced by 9/13, and, under the LNP appointed board and corporate policy, finally completed a couple of weeks ago
You've got a bit of a nerve asking what Labor will do regarding the LNP's complete botch-up of the network � or are you testing the "It's all Labor's fault' sample loop for when your dissembly gets too much for even the most hardened on LNP supporter ?
If it's a problem with the system then people need to be sure about that.
<Sweetly> Would you like to come around to mine and have a look?
The Coalition strategy was to lower the capex cost of the build which would give flexibility to pay contractors more.
Look how that turned out for them � what a crock. By the way Kingy, where is my 25Mbps Fraudband service? It is now 2016 after all.
What does Labor propose to do about the problem of activating FTTN premises ... if it is a problem?
Replace copper with Fibre � now there's a real plan.
Nigel should have been able to name one place where this was a problem
No. Besides, one area doesn't indicate a problem with the system.
Within one response � that has to be a record. Surely someone can come up with a bot that tricks Kingy into replying to and arguing with his own posts, and the rest of use can get on with something more worthwhile....
You sounded nervous which is quite understandable if not used to speaking publicly.
Which did not affect the overall performance by the poster.
Within one response � that has to be a record. Surely someone can come up with a bot that tricks Kingy into replying to and arguing with his own posts, and the rest of use can get on with something more worthwhile....
However, in return we get the classic Streisand effect.
Times now get interesting. Labor is starting their push by highlighting the failures in Newcastle. They are pointing out the whole thing is a mess, and its going to be interesting how the Liberals get themselves out of it.
I predict, they'll start with, Its labors fault. Followed by jobs and growth. Followed by policy on the run.
Good times..
First off, welcome back Frank!
Second Its about time Labors finally highlighting problems
https://delimiter.co
Good times..
But Malcolm has a plan that will make us all proud. I'm sure he's decided that all networks are thin at one end, much MUCH thicker in the middle, and then thin again at the far end. That is the plan that he has and which is his, and what it is too.
[With thanks to the Python team]
But Malcolm has a plan that will make us all proud.
he was so proud of his plan that he had his initials added to nbn for all to see the mark he left on it
nbnTurnbullMalcolm
Obviously "pushing" End Users on lower speeds, obfuscates the demand and it also provides again a false argument to NBN Co and the LNP that higher speeds are not required. *)
You mean contrived don't you....? Why else would they have removed the 50 etc speeds from the mix. Its all or nothing with a significant jump in cost between them so most people stay down at 25. Yes, it also saves LNP embarrassment that speeds can't be delivered.
Of course, if you pay for 100 and only get 25 why would you pay for 100...?
http://www.theherald.com.au/
Is he for real? Honestly? Contractors stopped under labor did they? Except they made 750k+ homes where as im not seeing that many on FTTN
�We�ve made a big turnaround. We now have 2.6 million premises where NBN is available and well over one million customers connected.
We are getting it built yet no one can connect to such an inferior service. Well Done Turnbull! So much for Ready for Service.
�It will be fully built in 2019-20.
Definitely not this inferior piece of crap you call infrastructure, just like your failed promise of 25mbps to all by the end of 2016
�It would no longer be able, in my view, to be categorised as an investment as it is now.
We can agree here. As it stands now, you have destroyed any opportunity for decent returns thanks to your choice in technology. Congratulations on doubling the cost of your own MTM and ruining any chance of getting anything back
An early nbn joke on the Chaser, and what a desk. :P
Until NBN declares to everyone what Network shortfall actually entails noone can specify a remedy.
Sorry, the meaning of "Network shortfall" is likely CiC.
NBN Co would likely argue that they do not want to let the market know of any shortage of labor, otherwise existing labor/suppliers or potential new labor/suppliers might use that to their advantage in or when negotiating for work and labor rates.
That irks me seriously..
The Telstra ad is the worst. Picture a family of several members, on several devices, movies , online games etc and then the claim..
"All at the same time"
Just like this southernphone envelope on my desk. Back of it says:
Why switch to nbn?
Enjoy access to faster internet speeds.
Easily handles multiple users online at the same time.
Great I won't have a problem having multiple people on at once and i'll have fast speeds!
So what are they advertising on the front... a 50GB 12/1 plan, so that's faster internet speeds and will easily handle multiple users at once?
Whats on the paper inside... two more 12/1 plans. Sure they say you can go to 25, 50 or 100 but only buried in all the lines of small print at the bottom of which how many people realistically read.....
LNP are banging on again about most people "choosing" 25Mbps or lower, is it any wonder when it's advertised all over the place as "fast internet speeds" "super fast NBN broadband" "lightning fast internet" but the plans offered with those words are only 25/12 if a speed is even indicated at all?
If they already get "super fast broadband" with their plan, why would they want to see about getting even faster... surely super fast will be fast enough...
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