whirlpool

https://ispspeedindex.netflix.com/
**Type Australia in then click on the arrow down button!

Very interresting. So, 'the elephant' in Oz really is the slowest beast in the menagerie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJtQF__8oHo

Cheers

I wouldn't say its an utter disaster. Its literally direct sabotage and destroying of the NBNCo by LNP all politically motivated with disregard for Australian public funds as well as disservice to the current Australians and future Australians of this country.

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Neil Mac writes...

Very interesting. So, 'the elephant' in Oz really is the slowest beast in the menagerie.

Pretty much, however given the disparate design of the MTM; on which you now have to run a National Wholesale Network on: the issue of "Bufferbloat" will become readily apparent eg the FTTN network and HFC networks!

We are seeing this already in Peaks on FTTN, where congestion add to latency and the obsolete copper; dropping packets for a myriad of reasons, causing even more congestion.

Whilst we've seen the CEO Bill Morrow attempt to state that its not his FTTN network to blame, � and instead, purportedly it is "underprovisioning" by the RSP's???

The reality is that: "Bufferbloat" can be entirely responsible for this perceived "underprovisioning" by the RSP market, where you have excessive latency and dropped packets occurring --

A point further reflected in the outages we see in the spectrum limited "Telstra" Mobile network, where we are now seeing what is known as "Cascading Failure" � due to congestion on their network, as demand and the networks ability to deal with the "throughput" gets to unmanageable levels resulting in: network failure..

Of course, a very simple way of addressing Bufferbloat, on fixed lines caused through packet loss which adds to latency and congestion; is to have a network, which provides for a reliable network which minimises "packet loss" and provides for a much more reliable network which of course is a FTTH network � and one unlike obsolete copper networks is one in which bandwidth can be added pretty much on demand as utilisation levels increase:-

This of course would similarly be applied at a much higher level across the Transit Network..

Labors policy intention to return to FTTH, is frankly the only way to go; if we are to avoid the sort of internet congestion-driven collapse of the network, and where our ever increasingly Internet and bandwidth dependent economy; has the potential for incalculable havoc to be wrought upon it, due to these collapses we are now starting to see.

And this:- is but one of the "risks" that simply don't figure in the moronically and stupendously stupid faster cheaper and more affordable Fraudband network the LNP are foistering onto an unsuspecting public and business community; where their only effective tools are to implement.

a) usage metering,

b) bandwidth caps,

and

even more expensive tiered pricing...

This is the reality! � that Labor need to make visible to the public instead of the fluff and nonsense we trotted out in the staged media events as provisioned by turnbull and co. /s

http://www.oecd.org/sti/ieconomy/38405781.pdf

Here is a 2006 report on traffic prioritisation. We had a clear warning back then of the problems of ever increasing data usage.

Latest news:

Malcolm Turnbull ready to call July 2 double dissolution election if IR bills rejected again

With a 2 July date practically set it's now time for Labor to get into serious election campaign mode.

Labor will most likely:

not return to a full fibre rollout
will instead follow the Multi Technology Mix model and not alter it in any significant way
announce their NBN policy on the 30 June
not focus on end user affordability or the sustainability of the cross subsidisation model
refuse to detail when or how much more fibre they will deliver in comparison to the Coalition's MTM

Both parties will probably:

ignore the issue of breaking up the NBN before privatisation.
not talk about MTM's Internal Rate of Return
avoid talking about taxes/cuts in services to prop up a failing NBN.

If the debate continues on as it has been then the NBN will not feature as an election issue. Very unlikely that social media will play an important role in influencing a change in the NBN's direction.

Here is a 2006 report on traffic prioritisation. We had a clear warning back then of the problems of ever increasing data usage

And more recently as provided here with respect to what sort of problems the MTM model is now having!

See:- http://cdn.cio.com.au/ktml/redactor_serve_image/37

Making even more pertinent my comments here: whrl.pl/Rez1r6 with respect to the only options available to the LNP under their MTM model.

Further the chart provides a very clear incentive for Labor returning to the FTTH model as previously indicated by Jason Clare together with hopefully deploying a new National Wifi network in which to provision the mobile services that will be needed as part of what is known as the Internet of Things (I.O.T.),

Where we see, as evidenced with: the Telstra Mobile network collapsing, twice recently due to "congestion" on their network, in which it simply can't sustain the bandwidth required for mobile data let alone that which will be required with I.O.T.

And here; the only network capable of provisioning that is ...

A FTTH network and certainly not the obsolete copper the LNP have slung like a millstone around the taxpayers necks!

Cheers

https://delimiter.com.au/2016/03/21/nbn-changes-mind-hfc-suburbs-get-fttn/

Labor will most likely:

not return to a full fibre rollout

Jason Clare has stated that they will stop doing FTTN.
HFC is kind of up in the air.

Knowbody writes...

Jason Clare has stated that they will stop doing FTTN

Given this

See:- whrl.pl/Rez0WR

Returning to a FTTH is pretty much guaranteed!

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Knowbody writes...

HFC is kind of up in the air.

Even the Libs arent doing full HFC anymore as per their dodgy SR, must be a real Charlie Foxtrot!!!

�Originally we thought, no problem, we�ll probably just pull coaxial down those overlooked streets and continue with the HFC build that was there, but we find that there are better economics in using technologies like FttN and/or potentially even some fixed-wireless applications,� Morrow reportedly said.

FFS, 4 different access technologies in 1 area, what a Joke!!!

It shouldn't be too hard for the ALP to come up with a better NBN policy!

dJOS writes...

Even the Libs arent doing full HFC anymore as per their dodgy SR, must be a real Charlie Foxtrot!!!

http://www.smh.com.au/business/telstra-and-nbn-close-in-on-massive-hfc-deal-20151221-glsgr9.html

What was the point of the Telstra deal then?

What was the point of the Telstra deal then?

delaying tactic?

Hopefully we will see Labor back in power soon and implement a FTTN phase-out project to replace all FTTN with FTTP :D

Hopefully we will see Labor back in power soon and implement a FTTN phase-out project to replace all FTTN with FTTP :D

Plus one, this liberal gov had been bad from day 1, not even including their destruction of the NBN that labor now has to fix!

What was the point of the Telstra deal then?

to make the HFC an essential part of the NBN, which Telstra has control of the sale of. Just like the copper. Think has to carry foxtel across any technology they put in place there, regardless of whether its HFC, Fibre etc.

I just hope ALP have a very good plan to get us all back on track. I do not think, however, there is any chance of the days of 'free fibre for everyone' given the ROI has been shredded by the above deal in particular.

to make the HFC an essential part of the NBN, which Telstra has control of the sale of

You mean stretch out the value of HFC until Telstra want to sell their share of Foxtel...oh they just said they do want to sell their share and oops FTTN is best way to go....What did Turnbull actually negotiate....seems little to do with NBN for taxpayers....

You mean stretch out the value of HFC until Telstra want to sell their share of Foxtel..

Good point, though its more than that � HFC is the major profit centre for the whole ROI. Changing the definitive agreement completely killed ALPs NBN plans' ROI.

Good point, though its more than that � HFC is the major profit centre for the whole ROI. Changing the definitive agreement completely killed ALPs NBN plans' ROI.

It could be the complete opposite, telstra knowing that HFC may be dead end for them. Selling out now is probably the better option. Look at their streaming box they are selling. Its delivered over internet bandwidth and not foxtel cables. (Depending on what the user has).

I thought they already sold the infrastructure of HFC to NBNco. What else are they selling? They announced they were selling the foxtel share of cable TV, I believe.

I thought they already sold the infrastructure of HFC to NBNco.

well NBNCo have agreed to take it, Telstra will have use of "the existing Telstra HFC foortprint for Foxtel"

but nbn� have to pay for the lot if they take control of one section of Telstra HFC.
To my knowledge they still haven't taken control of any and it will be interesting to see if nbn� do take control before the election, as a change of Government may cause the HFC parts to be immediately put on hold

Hopefully we will see Labor back in power soon and implement a FTTN phase-out project to replace all FTTN with FTTP :D

I hope they do have a plan to replace FTTN with FTTP. Won't be too impressed if they don't, especially considering they are currently rolling out the rubbish in my area.

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https://vimeo.com/41752476

Hopefully we will see Labor back in power soon and implement a FTTN phase-out project to replace all FTTN with FTTP :D

Should imagine they can simply copy the business case that New Zealand had to develop when they found out to their dismay and great cost that FTTN simply doesn't deliver and started deploying this!

And I note that ETI Technologies have developed a new tool to aid for the migration off obsolete copper based networks to Fibre Networks!

http://www.etisoftware.com/cincinnati-bell-inc-expands-and-extends-relationship-with-eti/

Might be worth looking at given the endless integration delays we've seen with the LNP's efforts with respect to managing the integration of the OSS/BSS systems that were operating to scale when they took over control from Mike Quigley under Labor � in which their changes they have inflicted, have and continue to be a major issue for the disaster known as MTM.

I thought they already sold the infrastructure of HFC to NBNco. What else are they selling? They announced they were selling the foxtel share of cable TV, I believe.

However, the bigger contract win is set to come in February 2016. Both parties have signed a memorandum of understanding and are in the final stages of negotiating a deal that would see Telstra design and project-manage the expansion and upgrade of its hybrid fibre-coaxial (HFC) network.

The HFC networks built by Telstra and Optus are largely used to deliver pay TV and cable internet services. But the Coalition's NBN plans to upgrade and expand it to connect around 4 million homes and businesses with high-speed broadband.

Market sources have indicated the deal is set to be worth between $1.5 billion and $1.8 billion for Telstra, but this could change depending on talks in the new year. Both sides declined to comment.

The contract would be one of the biggest NBN-related wins for Telstra since the project was launched in 2011. About 3.6 million homes and businesses will eventually be connected to the NBN using HFC cabling under Telstra's guidance.

That was supposed to happen.

but nbn� have to pay for the lot if they take control of one section of Telstra HFC.

ALARM BELLS.....Dive.... Dive.... dive....

That was supposed to happen.

and yet now they are throwing in FTTN inside HFC areas, seems like those HFC numbers may have been a little on the "high side"
or that was then and this is now FTTN for teh win at nbn� forget anything that can deliver over 25/5

Labor must say that they will do FTTP and highlight that they can increase bandwidth to end users without having to replace the main labor cost component, that is replacing the "in ground" component at every bandwidth increase.

the new "PON" can be used later in new areas, but for areas that had FTTP partly or fully planned, under the previous regime, they need to dust of those plans and start implementing them ASAP,

http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor-nbn-fttnb-design-may-lead-to-decades-of-congestion/

To my knowledge they still haven't taken control of any and it will be interesting to see if nbn� do take control before the election, as a change of Government may cause the HFC parts to be immediately put on hold

One can only hope that they don't take control. If they are buying it, they are buying junk.

But nothing surprises me with these incompetent LNP/MTM bunch. Buy old tech and re-badge as new to flog off to the masses. This makes dick smiths heist by Anchorage look like child's play.

Currently FTTH capacity is 2500mbps down 1250mbps up shared with 20 users (or physical contention, for nerd points) � with room for up to 32 users. Twenty users = 125/62.5mbps down/up for each.

My guess is if Labor want to bring 1gbps to the table they'd be using NG-PON 2 at 40gbps shared with 32 users or 80gbps and 64 users. That would be 1.25gbps per user. NG-PON can do this up to 40 kilometres away from an optical network terminal (ONT).

Compare that with the math Jxeeno did on the FTTN, and that doesn't include the distance factor of copper from a node.

Guess we shall see in the coming months.

Just to clarify this the ITU standard for NG-PON2 it that it will "at least" support a 40Gbit aggregate capacity in the D/L and 10Gbps in the U/L

Whilst the current target ceiling is 160Gbps in the DL/ and 80Gbps in the U/L which effectively provides for a dedicated 5Gbps DL and 2.5Gbps U/L per user on a 32 split as currently engineered!

Further existing GPON, XG-PON can also be concurrently run across the same piece of Fibre.

Ref G989.1 ITU and latest amendment thereto.

It could be the complete opposite, telstra knowing that HFC may be dead end for them.

apologies � I meant the HFC areas are the major profit centres for NBN, not the HFC cable itself.

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http://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=d2c31876-117f-4318-ae36-5fd7600f73c3&subId=32172

Ref G989.1 ITU and latest amendment thereto.

Bleah, amendments. :)

I had a look at some of the HFC contention figures but they were too depressing to post.

Jxeeno again.

I had a look at some of the HFC contention figures but they were too depressing to post.

And here how many Enterprise and SME businesses are going to be consigned to this limited spectrum environment in which they simply won't be able to compete and instead will have to get "Telstra" to install dedicated ethernet on which to run and write the cost off as a business expense to the taxpayer!

Essentially providing a duplicated network that the Taxpayer is shelling out their hard earned for!

And to think that turnbull said we couldn't afford to build a FTTH network and yet the reality is that the Taxpayer is actually paying "MORE" for what Labor's FTTH network was going to cost!

And then, the Australian Taxpayer is having to stump up even more, for all these duplicated networks and services that are being rolled out and installed � ripping to shreds NBN's revenue model which is now in a complete state of disarray!

https://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-G.989.1-201303-I!!PDF-E&type=items

Ref G989.1 ITU

Okay, that looks interesting. The can even push NG-PON2 out 60-100km with reach extenders, although the "must support a split ratio of at least 1:256" is less flexible for smaller areas.

dJOS writes...

FFS, 4 different access technologies in 1 area, what a Joke!!!

There is one street on the Gold Coast that 3 different technologies just across the street from each other.

And don't forget there are suburbs in south west Brissy that have Opticom (not NBN!) fibre 100/40 as well.

Hopefully we will see Labor back in power soon and implement a FTTN phase-out project to replace all FTTN with FTTP :D

and then LNP will be back in power 3/6 years later and again change the project to be FTTN.
It's a never ending cycle.
It'll take ALP at least 2 years to fix the screw ups of LNP, a year of rolling out their chosen method.

The reality is the NBN is now destined to be a shambles of technologies and it simply can't be fixed without starting again and getting all political parties on board with the obvious choice to use FTTP.
That won't happen simply because then they can't use it to fling mud at each other.

Chuggington writes...

and then LNP will be back in power 3/6 years later and again change the project to be FTTN.
It's a never ending cycle.

I can only hope that Labor [if it gains power] will have learned from the previous experience to hogtie the fibre rollout in such a way that the LNP won't be able to undo it.

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telstra knowing that HFC may be dead end for them. Selling out now is probably the better option.

I'm happy to be corrected but

Turnbull's Telstra deal means
- NBN CO will own HFC cables etc (not ducts etc?) and as soon as NBN Co complete one part they MUST complete whole HFC network
- Telstra has right of veto for any sale etc of HFC network

- HFC is quickly becoming a sunk asset due to likes of Netflix etc
- Telstra wants to sell its share of Foxtel because of decline in business (Money in the bank)

- NBN Co to increase HFC footprint by ~1M services to ~4m ( but some of that already is to be done as FTTN...(for Foxtel?)
- NBN Co carry cost of remediation/upgrade of HFC for Foxtel to benefit (nil Foxtel input)
- Newscorp, owners of other 50% of Foxtel benefit financially via customers from NBN Co outlays (nil Newscorp/Foxtel input)
- Telstra to be paid to design manage build HFC upgrades (revenue for Telstra)

- Telstra is most likely to be handed NBN Co or sold for a pittance to them ........

and the winners are?.....not taxpayers it seems

What an extraordinary act of stupidity on behalf of taxpayers this farce is.

What an extraordinary act of stupidity on behalf of taxpayers this farce is.

It is just blatant corruption on the part of politicians contrary to the sworn oath they took when put into office. People should be jailed for this, IMHO.

I just hope labor lock in a 'no NBN sale' as part of their new policy, and the returns from NBN reinvested into perpetual refresh/upgrades of the network.

Taxpayer funded critical infrastructure, specifically for taxpayers and the nation as a whole, is not purely an asset for a government to sell off when it suits them.

- NBN CO will own HFC cables etc (not ducts etc?) and as soon as NBN Co complete one part they MUST complete whole HFC network

not quite, they don't have to use it all, even after taking one segment of Telstra HFC, but they become responsible for "paying" for it all AND for the maintenance of it and any expansion until at least the Foxtel access deal runs its course.

What are the odds on a "modified" or "extended" Foxtel/Telstra access deal being done if Telstra goes to sell out 25% of their current share, you know, have to make the deal look better to the public and also bring in funds directly to Telstra

if Telstra goes to sell out 25% of their current share,

...and the likely buyer is Murdoch?

...and the likely buyer is Murdoch?

no, sold onto the market, ie to your super funds and poor Mum and Dad investors taken for a ride, much like the DSE IPO,
Fox already own 50%

blatant corruption on the part of politicians contrary to the sworn oath they took when put into office

They swear nothing of the sort.

I, A.B., do solemnly and sincerely affirm and declare that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to name of monarch, Her heirs and successors according to law.

Similarly for the oath.

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-prl- writes...

They swear nothing of the sort.

http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/OathsAffirmations disagrees �
In September 2013 Prime Minister Tony Abbott reinstated the oath and affirmation used by John Howard, with the addition of the phrase �Queen of Australia�.

Oath of Office (2013)

I, [Minister's full name], do swear that I will well and truly serve the people of Australia in the office of [position] and that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Australia. So help me God!

Affirmation of Office (2013)

I, [Minister's full name], do solemnly and sincerely affirm and declare that I will well and truly serve the people of Australia in the office of [position] and that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Australia.

Subsequently:

"I, Malcolm Bligh Turnbull, do swear that I will well truly serve the people of Australia, the office of prime minister and that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, the Queen of Australia, so help me, God."
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/australia-malcolm-turnbull-sworn-prime-minister-after-ousting-tony-abbott-1519771

Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard didn't swear or affirm allegiance to her maj, but republican Malcolm Turnbull did...

no, sold onto the market, ie to your super funds and poor Mum and Dad investors taken for a ride,

If my super fund bought into such a flagging investment I'd be rolling over to another fund, preferably one that has some sense of long term thinking like what is needed with NBN investment.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/192929-255tbps-worlds-fastest-network-could-carry-all-the-internet-traffic-single-fiber

Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard didn't swear or affirm allegiance to her maj, but republican Malcolm Turnbull did..

the act of someone supposedly invested in republicanism...when it suits him...

His approach to NBN has likewise been opportunistic....

This speed increase means that upgrading the backbone is necessary.

http://phys.org/news/2012-09-petabit-fiber-transmission-km.html

Wavelength Division Multiplexing was mentioned in the 4th of March NBN Select Committee and there's also multi-core fibre thrown into the mix.

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/solutions/collateral/service-provider/ip-ngn-ip-next-generation-network/white_paper_c11-481360.html

And this shows the estimated traffic of the world over the next three years. 2000 exabytes of data over one year in 2019. That's a lot of cat videos. :)

Ambitious But Rubbish writes...

I can only hope that Labor [if it gains power] will have learned from the previous experience to hogtie the fibre rollout in such a way that the LNP won't be able to undo it

Well lets face facts its not like turnbulls' faster cheaper and more affordable is taking the nation where Labor originally intended to lead the world in lighting the lights of Fibre Optic community up is it!

Especially given the hard light of dawn and the facts here!

?Labor MP slams Turnbull�s NBN as Aussie broadband speeds fall behind
Shadow Communications Minister, Jason Clare, has slammed the Liberal Party�s takeover of the National Broadband Network following new research showing a substantial drop in world rankings for average peak connection speed.

Clare said on Thursday that Australia has crashed in the global broadband rankings, citing new research from Akamai showing our average peak connection speed has dropped from 30th place to 60th in just three years.

http://www.cio.com.au/article/596648/labor-mp-slams-turnbull-nbn-aussie-broadband-speeds-fall-behind/

Under Labor's 2012-2015 Corporate Plan approximately 3.7 million residences would now be connected to the FTTH network compared with the piss poor effort of around 1 million under the LNP (See their 2016 Corporate Plan for EOF results 2015)

On top of which Gary Mclaren ex CTO of NBN Co stated in 2011 that they would migrate the network to the 10Gbps standard in 2016.

A point that since leaving NBN Co he actually has pretty much completed in Hong Kong since this was announced eg

https://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/2015/05/11/hkt-and-huawei-deploy-10gbps-ftth/

However should Labor win then you would expect a move to the NG-PON2 architecture given the developments here!

PT Inova��o helped Portugal Telecom (PT) making history once more. While announcing the commitment to bring fiber to 5.3 million Portuguese homes and companies until the year 2020, Portugal Telecom has presented a new and 100% national technology. Called NG-PON2, this new technology will increase 16 to 32 times the current fiber optic speeds.

http://www.alticelabs.com/en/126-ng-pon2-pt-inovacao-develops-pioneering-technology.html

*Note the standard actually currently provides for 160Gbps!

http://www.ict-coconut.eu/

However should Labor win then you would expect a move to the NG-PON2 architecture given the developments here!

One contender for the next step up from NG-PON2 looks to be "COCONUT" or COst-effective COhereNt Ultra-dense-WDM-PON.

I can get behind that acronym. :)

I can get behind that acronym. :)

That's a hard one to crack!

Ambitious But Rubbish writes...

*Note the standard actually currently provides for 160Gbps!

So bloody annoying -

FTTN can get maybe to 1GB if you believe the sales pitch of Morrow etc and that is supposedly 'fantastic' ungradeability from up to 25Mb/s, which is still to come

FTTP at 100Mb/s can be ungraded to 160Gb/s � NOW!!

Some sense of scale Mr Morrow, Mr Turnbull....!!

aaaahhhh!... but who needs it...? /s

Anyone else see Turnbull interviewed by Tony Jones on Lateline the other night?

Turnbull ticked Jones off for spending less time on his preferred (rehearsed) issue at the start of the interview than the tpoic he was pursuing at that time (and making Turnbull uncomfortable I might add...). Perhaps directives may have been issued by his office as agreement for his appearance and they were being veered from � who knows?.

If Turnbull is prepared to publicly tick off an ABC reporter ON AIR as if he was his immediate boss, one can only imagine how he may behave/has behaved behind closed doors � might explain why the NBN Co heirarchy trumpet his rubbish in supporting FTTN/MTM farce. Morrow for one must have the technical qualifications to understand the direction he is taking NBN is taking it to the grave yard yet he continues supporting the indefensible � MTM.

If Jones showed some independence then he has clawed back a slight point from me as I've long considered him a part of the problem [even before MT ever appeared on the scene] and not the solution.

As for Turnbull, I see in him the potential to become a tyrant, given his unswerving belief in his excellence and how he must impose his will on others.

wrong bookmarked moved to federal thread

As for Turnbull, I see in him the potential to become a tyrant

He's been there for some time....noticed how bad FTTN/MTM is?

NBN election: Labor polling voters on Coalition�s NBN performance

https://delimiter.com.au/2016/03/31/nbn-election-labor-polling-voters-coalitions-nbn-performance/

The Australian Labor Party has started directly calling voters to ask whether the Abbott/Turnbull Government�s handling of the National Broadband Network will influence how they vote at the upcoming Federal Election, in a sign Labor sees it as a key election issue.

This reader received a call from an automated interactive Voice Response (IVR) system which identified the call as being done by the Western Australian branch of the Labor Party. The call gave the local contact number for that branch.

After getting the reader�s details and organic voting preference, the call then asked specifically how the reader felt about the Government�s handling of/approach to the National Broadband Network, asking them to give a rating on a scale of one (very good) to five (poor) to determine how they felt about the issue.

The reader was then asked whether the issue would influence their vote at the next Federal Election.

Me ... me .... call me ... I'll give you my honest and unbiased opinion on how I feel about the Government�s handling of/approach to the National Broadband Network. A rating of 1 to 5 ...... can it go into the negative? Can it? Can it? Huh? Huh?

Written and spoken by and on behalf of all Whirlpoolians that are bloody sick and tired of Turnbull and his LNP cronies that have destroyed the NBN.*

* This bit needs to be read out loud in a very fast, deep and official sounding tone.

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Javelyn writes...

Me ... me .... call me ...

If Labor is smart they will focus on seats like Swan in WA. Part (Vic Park and some of South Perth) have FTTP completed and working for a while. Very happy customers from what I hear. Cannington FTTN /MTM is supposedly going live in a month or so and parts of that (St James) are directly adjacent to Vic Park. A survey of users on both sides of the fence presented to the local member and media would be interesting. The last question should be why have you screwed this NBN up so bad...?

I have previously posted that on the corner of Albany Hwy and Salisbury St the boundary exists between FTTP and FTTN/MTM.

I could hypothetically be living in my house on one corner with FTTP and have my business less than 20m away across the road on the other side of the corner with FTTN/MTM � the best I can get.

In my house I'm paying $89 for FTTP 100/40Mb/s 500Gb data and getting it, today I see a Telstra advert for the same price I can sign up my business for 'up to' 25Mb/s 200Gb � it's actually only 'up to' 12Mb/s for some months I believe � and with that I'd be living in hope of getting anywhere near that speed. OK, I get free Telstra AIr WiFi (for a short period only I think) but will I use it?

Thank you Mr Turnbull....for screwing my business..... So much for supporting small business � it's not quite as "exciting and agile" as my home FTTP service, is it?

EDIT � I had internet go down this morning for a while. I checked my NBN box here in my study and pulled out the manual to check what each flashing light meant � I was surprised to see my UNI D 1 orange light means "the device connected.....uses 1Gbps Ethernet"

Javelyn writes...

Me ... me .... call me ...

Why wait for them to call. Let Jason Clare know through his website. The last time I sent something through there, I had a call back from someone in his office.

I'll likely be sending a message over the weekend.

I am wondering:

What if labor get in. And at that point STOP all FTTN, DEAD STOP no more FTTN work, even if it means paying out contracts without them being completed, and then replace everything FTTN that LNP has done in the last 3 years with FTTP (Start over) and continue with their original plan of 93% FTTP.

With the advances show in Project Fox and subsequent Skinny Fiber trials, ie lower costs and faster rollout, would increased ROI of FTTP and GDP benefits, be enough to compensate the FTTN waste and make it a viable option? ( Long term / 20-30 year vision...)

ie, lets just cut our losses and do it right. Keeping in mind the recent reports of how much internet usage has grown in the last 12 months...

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phrat writes...

And add a COD option, "Copper On Demand". I'm sure Lib/FTTN fanbois be lining up to pay for their precious copper to the house.

It is just blatant corruption on the part of politicians contrary to the sworn oath they took when put into office.

Not so. It is just that donations to the LNP can represent excelent value for money for some. It is the free enterprise thing to do.

phrat writes...

ie, lets just cut our losses and do it right.

I suppose it's possible (if you play around with assumptions). But it's up to Labor to make that argument. They need to prove to the electorate that a switch away from the MTM is better.

They need to prove to the electorate that a switch away from the MTM is better.

If only it were that simple, they'd still be deploying FTTP.

SheldonE writes...

If only it were that simple, they'd still be deploying FTTP.

They've made no attempt to argue the case.

Assuming a full fibre network is always economically better, then phrat would be right. It's better to cut your losses now and start all over again.

They've made no attempt to argue the case.

Only in your world where you think Jason Clare hasn't actually said anything for 3 years. Pretty much every time he makes an announcement or is in an interview, he shoots down Turnbulls policy, with the reasoning that it is poorer value than Labors plan, its technically inferior than Labors plan, its worse not future proof like Labors plan, etc.

They've made no attempt to argue the case.

You're joking right? Can you point to a single bit of evidence to the contrary?

"KingForce writes...

They've made no attempt to argue the case."

What rock have you been hiding under KingForce?

SheldonE writes...

Can you point to a single bit of evidence to the contrary?

I'm saying that they are not arguing for a return to full fibre.

they are not arguing for a return to full fibre.

I don't think we can expect to know what their plans are until the election is called. Any conjecture either way is just speculation. personally, I think a return to full fibre is possible, if not then Abbott and Turnbull have succeeded in Destroying the NBN.

SheldonE writes...

I don't think we can expect to know what their plans are until the election is called.

They've said this much:

''While Labor would not be able to return to the original full-fibre NBN model, Clare said that �Fibre-to-the-Node will be gone. It�s not a question of if this will happen, it�s when it will happen and how it will be done.�
Vote for Labor, vote for fibre: Jason Clare

if not then Abbott and Turnbull have succeeded in Destroying the NBN.
I would rather Labor just concentrate on end-user affordability than technology.

While Labor would not be able to return to the original full-fibre NBN model

While this is not a direct quote, we won't know for sure how true this statement is until an election is called and we hear the policy.

concentrate on end-user affordability than technology

Technology moves at a fast pace, don't discount it so frivolously.

I would rather Labor just concentrate on end-user affordability than technology.

So you're in favour of FTTP then?

They need to prove to the electorate that a switch away from the MTM is better.

Referencing the rest of the world , which many started well after seeing the original NBN Plan, could hold some sway....seeing Australia would be in catch up mode. World ranking 30 down to 60 in relatively little time and heading south quickly is another....just off the top of the head....

Would MTM $56B+ cost play a part compared to original FTTP $43B which has not been challenged in its own right.

Or the promise at last election of FTTN $29.5B now $56B+ and growing quickly.....?

It's better to cut your losses now and start all over again.

Cut losses yes... start again � no ...95% of what is built is actually FTTP, Kingy, so nice try at perception building but facts are facts. Continuation of FTTP success in a proper manner as originally planned � should have been ~4M services in place by now except Turnbull screwed it.

Shane Eliiott writes...

What rock have you been hiding under KingForce?

He's been stuck in the LNP anti NBN perception factory......with any luck they will let him out around July....

They've said this much:

''While Labor would not be able to return to the original full-fibre NBN model, Clare said that �Fibre-to-the-Node will be gone. It�s not a question of if this will happen, it�s when it will happen and how it will be done.�
Vote for Labor, vote for fibre: Jason Clare

So your post above has just totally contradicted your most recent posts � how unusual!!

http://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-project/extra/season-7/who-to-blame-for-the-nbn

They need to prove to the electorate that a switch away from the MTM is better.

Easy, just send everyone a link to this:

phrat writes...

I wouldn't go that far, leave all the MTM technology in Liberal held suburbs, it's only fair they get what they voted for. Hahahaha.

There are some suburbs that have all the field planning/roping done for FTTP, that got cancelled and replaced with FTTN (or nothing 'cause they still haven't done any work yet). I did ask Jason Clare's office directly about this, fast track those areas while the mapping/work is still usable.

Given a choice between waiting another 2 years for FTTP, or getting FTTN this year, I'd wait 2 years. Yes despite field work starting 4 years ago, I'd still wait another 2 years. The alternative is to wait 5-10 years some time in the future while suburbs with no NBN at all are finished.

fabricator writes...

Yes! Me me me me me!

fabricator writes...

I wouldn't go that far, leave all the MTM technology in Liberal held suburbs, it's only fair they get what they voted for. Hahahaha.

Don't laugh it could well be they pork barrelled that as well and gave preference to loyal LNP seats.

http://www.mitchfifield.com/Media/MediaReleases/tabid/70/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/1139/MEDIA-RELEASE--Bill-Shorten-confirms-Labors-NBN-backflip.aspx

I suppose it's possible (if you play around with assumptions). But it's up to Labor to make that argument. They need to prove to the electorate that a switch away from the MTM is better.

That will never happen as even Labor now seem to realise that the cost of rolling out FTTH across Au is prohibitive when one has to deal with our Au prime contractors. Forcing the still inept NBNCo to bypass the middlemen (the prime contractors) and employ the real doers, the tradies direct, and making them the NBNCo responsible for real progress is about the only way we can hoe to get an FTTH outcome.

Zerophitus writes...

Forcing the still inept NBNCo to bypass the middlemen (the prime contractors) and employ the real doers, the tradies direct, and making them the NBNCo responsible for real progress is about the only way we can hoe to get an FTTH outcome.

They should have done this from the start as Telstra and Optus did in the 90's during the cable wars.

Zerophitus writes...

NBNco did this in the Darwin FTTP rollout, after sacking the Prime Contractor. It worked really well going by the reports posted on this forum.

Given how few businesses are actually donating to the Labor campaign fund (vs the Liberal one), there is no reason Labor need to support big business. Sack all the prime contractors, for poor performance and going along with this MTM scam.

Zerophitus writes...

even Labor now seem to realise that the cost of rolling out FTTH across Au is prohibitive

Actually, I would say that they are now forced to use the assets that the Libs have forced on the country...namely the copper.
The cost of FTTP has risen many fold due to Turnbulls agreements with Telstra and Optus.

"SHORTEN: �We won�t rip up everything that Mr Turnbull has done because I think, and it goes back to the fellow�s question before, not everything that the Liberals do is bad... So we will do a hybrid of some of what he�s done but we will have in our announcement, which we will be putting out pretty soon, a greater proportion of the use of fibre and we will also look at the proportions of fibre and we think we can provide more of that to more Australians.� (Source: Sky News People�s Forum, 7 April 2016)

The position outlined by Mr Shorten, to use more fibre, is already possible under the current multi-technology mix. This also confirms that Labor will utilise the existing copper network."

The position outlined by Mr Shorten, to use more fibre, is already possible under the current multi-technology mix. This also confirms that Labor will utilise the existing copper network."

It actually confirms that Fifield is an incompetent lying sack of...

The position outlined by Mr Shorten, to use more fibre, is already possible under the current multi-technology mix. This also confirms that Labor will utilise the existing copper network."

Dear oh dear, just more politics and spin, putting words in Shortens mouth.
The NBN has always had the capacity to roll out more fibre, it is this governments policy levers that put a stop to it. And Labor has not confirmed anything at all about its position on the future of the FTTN roll out, all we know is that their will be more fibre!

Nick writes...

Labor has not confirmed anything at all about its position on the future of the FTTN roll out, all we know is that their will be more fibre!

correct sir. given there has been little achieved with the FTTN rollout in the last 3 years, the impact shouldn't be as bad as it could � however the changes to the telstra definitive agreement WILL force labour to reconsider the means to fund the FTTP goal at the end of the day. As I have said before, I just hope the NBN stays in public hands, and its mandate is to re-invest in itself through ongoing upgrades, maintenance etc. to keep this asset a national resource.

(As opposed to Telstra who...<dont get me started>)

The position outlined by Mr Shorten, to use more fibre, is already possible under the current multi-technology mix. This also confirms that Labor will utilise the existing copper network."

It actually confirms that Fifield is an incompetent lying sack of...

When a pollie quotes their opponents words and uses that to bolster their own position, watch out for misquotation or a misinterpretation!

This could be interesting.

NBN Forum

Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare, Senator Jan McLucas and ALP Candidate for Capricornia, Leisa Neaton invite you to attend a forum about the National Broadband Network.

This forum is designed to tell locals how Labor will deliver on this critical project. We believe the NBN needs to be rolled out on an equitable basis around the country so people in regional areas like Central Queensland are not disadvantaged.
http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/classifieds/ad/2491611/

An opportunity to seek clarification on Labor's position.

An opportunity to seek clarification on Labor's position.

Anyone know where we can get this broken record fixed?

Labor is calling its policy a hybrid rollout for slight wording variations.

There will no longer ever be a return to FTTH.

The MTM fixed line portion give take small % either way is;

~ 33% HFC
~ 27% FTTH
~ 40% FTTN/FTTB

HFC is pretty much locked in.

The FTTB rollout I recall is 10% or higher of the FTTN/FTTH total rollout making the FTTN rollout about 30%. Since Labor has announced they will not undo what has been done and with plenty of expensive FTTN nodes and contracts locked in, both Labors and the MTM will be very identical.

This is a policy with no major differences between both parties.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/shorten-confirms-hybrid-nbn-under-labor/

There will no longer ever be a return to FTTH.

Raoul hath spoken.

both Labors and the MTM will be very identical.

You Coalition PR people and politicians must really be running scared right now to feel the need to keep repeating this lie...

This is a policy with no major differences between both parties.

What is the Coalition's policy? Their website https://www.liberal.org.au/fast-affordable-sooner-coalitions-plan-better-nbn still says Under the Coalition�s NBN all premises will have access to download speeds 25mbps to 100mbps by the end of 2016.

Is that what you will be campaigning for in the upcoming election?

Javelyn writes...

Anyone know where we can get this broken record fixed?

Nup. not worth the cost of repair (even if it could be repaired, seems well passed its useby date).

Better off tossing it in the trash next to teh copper and grabbing one of those new fangled DV... err ... streaming accounts. ;)

both Labors and the MTM will be very identical.
Why would Labour change back to FTTH and write off 10b Telstra deal? They are in a win win, when MTM fails and it will, they can blame the libs for the next 15 years. Malcolm Turnbull political career is over.

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Why would Labour change back to FTTH and write off 10b Telstra deal?

The agreement was made by labor, amended by the Libs. 11bn agreement would still stand regardless I would suggest.

I could not see Jason Clare saying anything about the policy until such time as the election has been announced. They will, IMHO, talk about bringing fibre to the home but in the meantime they will work to Fttdp � but in a different manner to which the Libs intend to use it (ie. Libs use this for Long runs and massive leads ins only, alp will push to have fibre at street level and fttdp in pits).
The upgrade path to FTTP for homeowners will be easier, but I suspect it will come out of their own pocket and not at the expense of the taxpayer as it was under the previous ALP policy.

The MTM fixed line portion give take small % either way is;

~ 33% HFC
~ 27% FTTH
~ 40% FTTN/FTTB

Link please...as usual. You need to check facts not invent them and your hedging by saying a small % variation is laughable...

There will no longer ever be a return to FTTH.

This is a policy with no major differences between both parties.

You wish....no fact to that statement what so ever....

Fttdp � but in a different manner to which the Libs intend to use it

Its funny that you think the Libs "intend" to use FTTdp! (and i don't mean funny har har!).

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The agreement was made by labor, amended by the Libs. 11bn agreement would still stand regardless I would suggest.

it was only 2b or something and it was to decommission the hfc and copper. plus 1b to optus. 12-2=10b.
If your not going to use the hfc and copper. it's a write off. Libs wont stop going on about it. Politics is game these people and that's a losing move

You Coalition PR people and politicians must really be running scared right now to feel the need to keep repeating this lie...

Yep!! a couple of coalition people have been going back to Gillard references...how scared is that � won't front current leadership and try to tie in three PMs back to current opposition leader � that's desperate!.....

Is that what you will be campaigning for in the upcoming election?

They can't surely when PM and anyone else on that side of politics is talking end of 2018 as moment of glory not ,2016 as promised...two years late and that's only for 25Mb/s as far as I can make out � not sure if that is 'up to' or guarantees but then again no-one has know which forever...

Intriguing that NBN Co keep adding FTTB to negligible FTTN to date to make it look good � so little FTTN has been done proportionally, and what part of the FTTB is non NBN Co � are they claiming that as well???

Why would Labour change back to FTTH and write off 10b Telstra deal?

Not sure why you would expect that write off in the first place. Same deal would stand...just renegotiated as Turnbull did....

WHy would Labor not do FTTH when it is the only realistic thing to do for the country's sake otherwise it goes to more than sub 100 on BBand list world wide. How does Australia compete economically and be innovative and agile and smart with that benchmark position....?

when MTM fails and it will, they can blame the libs for the next 15 years. Malcolm Turnbull political career is over.

True but that is the wrong motivation ...it will happen anyway. Blame games are for suckers focussed on anything but the prime issue...not doers....

this post was edited

Intriguing that NBN Co keep adding FTTB to negligible FTTN to date to make it look good �

Living in inner Sydney (and being one of the lucky ones with FTTB) I'm actually surprised at how slow the NBN FTTB rollout has been � TPGs rollout is substantially larger. The fibres in the ground � you could knock off every building over 50 apartments pretty quickly.

Plenty of FTTN being rolled out in certain areas (eg. Newcastle)

this post was edited

it was only 2b or something and it was to decommission the hfc and copper. plus 1b to optus. 12-2=10b

FYI � http://www.nbnco.com.au/corporate-information/media-centre/media-releases/nbn-co-and-telstra-sign-binding-definitive-agreements.html
"Total payments over time are estimated to deliver approximately $9 billion in June 2010 post tax net present value to Telstra"

I got the 11bn figure from this:http://www.itnews.com.au/news/coalition-wont-pay-extra-for-telstra-copper-354933
"....unwilling to budge on the promised $11 billion value of the definitive agreements..."

ALP spent a long time � good couple of years at least � getting this agreement through.

Agree alot of wasted effort.

this post was edited

Not sure why you would expect that write off in the first place. Same deal would stand...just renegotiated as Turnbull did....

Because it will let them come back with "MTM would have worked" and "labor wasted 10b tax payer money". They tied a noose around there neck and the ALP is going to let them hang themselves.

The Ziggster writes...

I'm actually surprised at how slow the NBN rollout has been

Which Fibre or FTTN?....FIbre has been slow because that is what Turnbull decided to do. He reduced it to less than half original rate of rollout so he could play politics (we should have ~4M premises by now and it is less than half now with anything included.... Turnbull's failure!

TPGs rollout is substantially larger

I'd suggest that is more perception than fact.

The fibres in the ground � you could knock off every building over 50 apartments pretty quickly.

You could and the max they get is what ? ...and what will they get when the fibre stuff gets to 10Gb/s and above....max 300 Mb/s maybe....? (I'm being generous I think). If a sugar kick is what you want ok but good business planning would suggest you go for long term not short term solutions...

Penny wise pound foolish!

ecause it will let them come back with "MTM would have worked"

If the blame game is what you want....but that doesn't get proper Bband to the country and surely that is the real objective.

There will no longer ever be a return to FTTH.

Did you by chance see Clare on Ch7 MOrning Weekend Breakfast show? Your posts for last six months or so are worthless....

BTW Friedenberg the 'second best' LNP salesman failed miserably only able to refer back to arguments of four years ago and trying to associate Gillard into current discussion � must be very very very worried...no substance and reversion to irrelevant ancient history to present any argument at all...?

If the blame game is what you want....but that doesn't get proper Bband to the country and surely that is the real objective.

I don't want it, but that's what we'll get. Politics is a game to them, they don't give a flap about us

There will no longer ever be a return to FTTH

Crap...FTTH is the only end game possible, so your statement is obviously hog-swallop.
And you are quoting Fifield who is "interpreting" what he thinks Shorten "meant".
Not exactly solid ground there either to say the least...

this post was edited

http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco2/documents/nbn-corporate-plan-2016.pdf

please...as usual. You need to check facts not invent them and your hedging by saying a small % variation is laughable...

Indeed, page 38.

FTTN/b component is 38% which means the FTTN component would be around 28% due to FTTN being 10%. Since many contracts are locked in on FTTN it has wedged and forced Labor into accepting the MTM legacy. All Labor will do is relabel MTM into Hybrid, probably will call it HTM.

It would be good if you provide us a link to the claimed $20B in GDP per annum to check if it's a fact as you claim, suspect you do not have a link as the figure is a WP myth.

Since many contracts are locked in on FTTN it has wedged and forced Labor into accepting the MTM legacy.

Rubbish GMT* .... Turnbull already set the trend on Government's breaking/changing/amending/ceasing contracts (even when he promised to the Australian people otherwise) when he became Minister for Communications.

*The use of 'T' in the initialism stands for something that I think is a more accurate TLA in representing her/his handle.

$20B in GDP per annum to check if it's a fact

It's not a fact no ..... it's an estimate. Doesn't mean it's not necessary reliable. When it comes to something purporting to be a 'fact' that is not even a reliable estimate you're thinking of the nbn Strategic Review.

http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco2/documents/nbn-corporate-plan-2016.pdf

So you think that your claim about what the ALP will do is supported by a link allegedly detailing what the current (mis)management will do, even when the ALP have repeatedly said that is definitely not what they will do? Seriously?

It would be good if you provide us a link to the claimed $20B in GDP per annum to check if it's a fact as you claim, suspect you do not have a link as the figure is a WP myth.

Complete rubbish � the links have been provided to you many times in the past... if you chose not to read them that is your prerogative, but that doesn't give them mythical status.