Hopefully Labor will have learned lessons from the Coalition.
Bugger the coalition learn from real life stuff internationally... Labor NBN policy makers should note this article...
http://www.buddeblog.com.au/
Quote � With the new results available to them, the argument now is that in many cases the cost of a full transiting from DOCSIS 3.0 to 3.1 are so great that it would be more cost effective to go to FTTH.
Looks like it is on with regards to NBN policies. Labor has said that they'll bring FTTP to the west coast of Tasmania communities that Turnbull decided to relegate to satellite.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
With the new results available to them, the argument now is that in many cases the cost of a full transiting from DOCSIS 3.0 to 3.1 are so great that it would be more cost effective to go to FTTH.
But Malcolm invented the internet and he knows!!!!
Not surprising really!
Looks like it is on with regards to NBN policies. Labor has said that they'll bring FTTP to the west coast of Tasmania communities
They should look at the seat of Swan in WA where half have got FTTP and half are getting FTTN in Cannington etc. What an opportunity for them to demonstrate to voters the differences between FTTP and FTTN particularly pricing for Plans.
In election mode LNP must be directing air traffic over South Perth Kensington Vic Pk Belmont (two weeks constant now even though there is a sharing plan in place) as they are so happy with FTTP and can't afford to upset the other half in Cannington etc getting FTTN with that as well. ...... /s
They should look at the seat of Swan in WA where half have got FTTP and half are getting FTTN in Cannington etc.
Dalyellup down south here is in the same boat, 3 different techs I believe? I know they have FTTP and they are getting FTTN but I believe the older sections have cable or something with another provider?
Here in Capel we are getting FTTP and FTTN plus the already existing FW which completely misses the entire townsite.
Labor will deliver fibre NBN to West Coast
http://www.jasonclare
They should look at the seat of Swan in WA where half have got FTTP and half are getting FTTN in Cannington etc
Just to reinforce that...
Quote extract from Cannington thread.....
...my maximum line rate that I had from last night of 76 Mbps has since halved for some reason:
Maximum Line rate
25.83 Mbps, 35.03 Mbps
Line Rate
22.6 Mbps, 31.9 Mbps
... but if there is something that can be done to rectify the speed back to the purchased 50 Mbps package........
Labor will deliver fibre NBN to West Coast
http://www.jasonclare.c
......and so say all of us ...too .....please
....and so say all of us ...too .....please
It's really not going to be hard for the ALP to better the LNP NBN policy is it, just change it from Corporate style project at lowest cost everything else be dammed, back to National infrastructure project to benefit all of Australia and Done!
It's really not going to be hard for the ALP
It helps when the technology gets better and better.
http://www.huawei.com/en/new
It helps when the technology gets better and better.
http://www.huawei.com/en/ne
Wow, and thats out of the lab too isn't it?
helps when the technology gets better and better.
http://www.huawei.com/en/ne
Bloody impressive but only at prototype stage atm, still they don't muck About and are very good at bring new tech to market rapidly.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
A "hoax" huh. Let me guess, they'll bring FTTN and to the west coast instead.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/
A "hoax" huh. Let me guess, they'll bring FTTN and to the west coast instead.
Quote � Mr Whiteley said he was working to come up with a funded solution.
"I have a solution presentation tomorrow that I'll be making to the Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and to Will Hodgman, the Premier of Tasmania, because I believe it will need to be a joint solution," he said.
"It's a substantial fix, it's probably somewhere around $18 million
Mr Whitely needs to recognise the hoax is on him from his own LNP party. Seriously, the funding for FTTP was in NBN coffers from the start and should have been completed by now. To expect new funding external to NBN/nbnTM is a total con. Is he representing the constituents � the voters � or the politics of his party?
By his own admission Whitely is making this up as he goes with a public bid to his masters who would appear not to have any idea about this fix. He has been let down by his masters, his party, it seems. On form any pre election promise would simply wither away..."oh so sorry, we looked at the figures again and can't do that at all for your nbnTM....satellite is it"
Well done Jason Clare. One expects this is just the start....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDJxk9Vfjew
Here is the April 28 video of Rob Mitchell and Jason Clare in Sunbury with a Forum on the NBN. Haven't watched it yet and the sound could've been better.
video of Rob Mitchell and Jason Clare in Sunbury with a Forum on the NBN
Enlightening stuff. The trials and tribulations these people are having to start with, and then lumbered with FTTN and Satellite issues as well.
Learned that there is additional costs for Sat users for data downloads....digital divide? Not sure that was part of original NBN plan (ubiquitous?) or a bit of 'opportunity' for revenue since change of govt.
Zealot and Kingy should take the time to see the real world here......apart from Clare's commitment to FTTP.
Good to hear Shorten's Budget Reply speech strong commitment to Fibre NBN. Look forward to more details....
I don't know if anyone else listening to Senate Estimate tonight picked up on this as being significant, but Conroy specifically asked nbn� if the commitment to take over all of Teltra's HFC network by taking any of it � would be triggered before 30 June (if I heard it correctly), and they said no. It suggests to me Labor may be thinking of walking away from the HFC � or at very least re-negotiating it.
Labor may be thinking of walking away from the HFC � or at very least re-negotiating it.
They have to � HFC areas are the major profit centres (why else would telstra do anything there in the first place?) and its key to going back to profitability.
It suggests to me Labor may be thinking of walking away from the HFC � or at very least re-negotiating it.
It's probably too costly to walk away from, so alter it to FTTP perhaps. The FTTdP one person "trial" means that technology can't be used for a Labor government to implement straight away.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
from what I heard in NZ the user has to pay for the connection cost.
False.
Costs
We cover the cost of fibre installation for most residential properties. This service includes:
Connecting your property to the fibre network in your street via the existing infrastructure
Reinstating any surfaces that have been disturbed during the install
Installing the external termination point on the exterior of the property
Installing the optical network terminal inside the property
Connecting your broadband provider�s modem
Testing to make sure everything is working
The only thing they don't cover is:
Any alternative installation from the road to the property that is outside our five different installation options.
So in the vast majority of cases, the installation doesn't cost you anything. If you have some sort of weird situation, then yeah it would probably cost something
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
That is because Verizon is not a nation wide rollout
same with NZ where the rollout is going to only ~ 70% of the population
Clutching at straws Zealot...... a technology rollout is a rollout and while there will be differentials for various reasons they will be marginal but five times more expensive than Verizon build and two times NZ ? � give it a break.
EDIT: You probably ignored it but Ozziemandias posted link to Quigley's statement exposing Turnbull's myth which demonstrates difference is � apples for apples more like $500.... I know who is more credible
I bumped into the local ALP candidate for Casey at the train station this morning, seemed pretty switched on and while not technical I thought i'd throw in my 2c on the NBN and see what sort of response I got.
He certainly seemed to think that Shorten's "full fibre" meant a return to FTTP as quickly as reasonably possible (although not an instant down tools on FTTN). He also said that I wasnt the first pi$$ed off ICT professional who personally told him we wanted a Royal Commission into the liberal parties destruction of the NBN.
Anyhoo, I look forward to seeing the actual policy when it appears.
He certainly seemed to think that Shorten's "full fibre" meant a return to FTTP as quickly as reasonably possible
That is in accord with Bowen at Press Club today in Budget reply statement. Full commitment to FTTP NBN ...details to come
That is in accord with Bowen at Press Club today in Budget reply statement. Full commitment to FTTP NBN ...details to come
Interesting. He would certainly be the best source. I Look forward to seeing the ALP policy. If it is full FTTP (apart from what is already built and contracted etc), they will open themselves up to the attack by LNP on the economics.
If it is full FTTP (apart from what is already built and contracted etc),
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
You could argue that it was always a MTM, as Labor's original plan included satellite and fixed wireless, so was never "full" fibre
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
The obvious option would be to come back to "MtM" areas once everyone else has the NBN and replace the copper networks with FTTP.
they will open themselves up to the attack by LNP on the economics.
So how do LNP justify highlighting their 2013 $29B election promise that went to $42B and then $56B...I think the immediate Labor response is obvious...don't lecture us....
As an aside I have previously posted that the original NBN V1 costing of $43B has never in itself been challenged directly and quantified (only seen SR Turnbull version of FTTP with crap assumptions and other contrivances/loadings) so with that as a starting point plus $8.5B predicted by NBN Co (if that can be believed) to switch back to FTTP it is actually still cheaper to go back to FTTP....$52B?
IT'S TIME!!!!.The catchcry call may just well be to make sure your friends vote for Labor if the NBN FTTP project is to be saved.
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
Of course they can...only a couple of hundred thousand FTTN services built compared to ~2M � MTM is a pimple on the bum at the moment � sooner it is excised the better
I imagine the ROI of FTTP is so much higher and over a longer life span that it would still be profitable to rip up all the FTTN now and replace with FTTP.
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy.
We dont' need semantics like this clogging up and taking away the debate about the real problems. I get what your saying.. and technically, yes, thats a claim to make. But come on... We have larger issues that are far more detrimental and if they arent fixed ASAP, god knows how worseoff we'll be (if thats even possible now).
upgrading existing FTTN builds
I cannot be upgraded, the equipment has to be decommissioned and replaced. Imagine all those power lines that will need to be turned off.
If it is full FTTP (apart from what is already built and contracted etc),
Is that actually confirmed?
They won't replace any new FTTN?
They won't replace any new FTTN?
Not until other areas have fttp � then hfc and fttn will be upgraded???
Maybe Labor will roll back any new FTTN work
They are ahead in both NewsPoll & Essential Research Polls 51-49 � my guess is they won't until their second term, if they win.
I asked our local Oxely Labor member (Milton Dick) this:
Whats your position on Telecoms? specifically the NBN. We desperately need service in the Centenary Village (Darra). We were scheduled for Fibre in 2014 before the LNP scuppered it for their dogs breakfast FTTN. Now, who knows what and when.
. Current speeds are 2 Mbps, if you can get a connection at all � no ports left on wacol exchange and it it drops out in the rain.
. Decent broadband is a necessity to work and access services nowadays.
And got this reply:
This is a really important issue that many residents throughout Darra and other parts of Oxley are giving me feedback about.
. Our plan under a Labor Government is to build the real NBN using fibre to the home and improve connection speeds significantly, as the current system is simply not good enough.
. As you mentioned, over the past 3 years the NBN rollout under the LNP has blown out and proven to be more expensive, less reliable and far slower than promised with their fibre to the node and I'll be doing my best to see this doesn't continue
Maybe Labor will roll back any new FTTN work
They are ahead in both NewsPoll & Essential Research Polls 51-49 � my guess is they won't until their second term, if they win.
Polls have them ahead, but they did not have a good few days. Every time an ALP candidate comes out opposing the immigration policy, they take a step backwards. I find it remarkable that they don't seem to understand this (the candidates opposing the policy I mean, Bill Shorten understands it perfectly).
Once Labor release their policy, they should start ad campaigns in any area that hasn't started build yet, specifically comparing what they will get under the LNP and what they will get under the ALP. I.e take what they did in West Tasmania and expand. Engage the internet army.
no matter what the Liberals do to it, when Labor gets back in they put it right back to where it should be.
lets hope so!
For brownfields the contracts already signed means that going back to FTTP will not happen.
You are advocating that we should fall for the 'sunk cost trap' � making a bad circumstance worse and losing even more money just because a lot of money has already been spent on it.
This is a classic business problem. The fact is, the cost of the copper is sunk � we can't get it back. We can't let that cloud our judgement for the future. If using that copper is going to make us worse off in the long run, then it's better to abandon it.
That's the rational approach � the problem will be the politics...
So you are actually betting each way .
I just put very little faith in anything that comes out of a politicians mouth. I believe the actions I see them take.
How many times do you have to be told their is no Fiber in Australia.
There most certainly is a Fiber in Australia. His name is Malcolm.
Sure, however we are seeing a lot of talk from alp candidates about FTTP so we'll have to wait for the policy.
Do you have actual quotes of ALP candidates talking about FTTP?
I bumped into the local ALP candidate for Casey at the train station this morning, seemed pretty switched on and while not technical I thought i'd throw in my 2c on the NBN and see what sort of response I got.
He certainly seemed to think that Shorten's "full fibre" meant a return to FTTP as quickly as reasonably possible (although not an instant down tools on FTTN).
This is the problem. By excluding the word FTTP leaves the ALP candidates to be unsure.
I do not see Clare going around saying FTTP.
Why? the most efficient and economic way to do it is as per NBN V1 � cost recovery through RSP charges for Plans.
In many cases there is no chance of recovering cost particularly if Labor decides to rollout FTTP in a cherry picked part of Tassie at a cost that is reportedly $10K per premise.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Do you have actual quotes of ALP candidates talking about FTTP?
Seriously Raoul, You are useless aren't you.
Bendigo's labor MP:
�Our ultimate goal is fibre to the premises for every household, every business. It may be a two-stage process where people already have fibre to the node, but for the rest of them, fibre to the premises.�
http://www.bendigoadvertiser
Plus West Tassie etc
�Our ultimate goal is fibre to the premises for every household, every business. It may be a two-stage process where people already have fibre to the node, but for the rest of them, fibre to the premises.�
http://www.bendigoadvertise
A two stage process. There is nothing convincing in this statement. Convincing words would be;
Labor will rollout FTTP
Both parties have an ultimate goal of FTTP, it does not mean that the govt will undertake the risk. Even the Coalition has said the end goal is FTTP, it does not mean the govt will get involved in the the rollout! Perhaps both parties will try and get the private sector to rollout FTTP � e.g. labor 2nd stage whatever that means.
Plus West Tassie etc
That is a problem in that Labor are not promising other parts of Australia to get FTTP, they have chosen a cherry picked location. Why aren' t they promising other parts of AU to get FTTP besides West Tassie? Questions should be raised on whether it's possible for a sitting govt to tell a GBE to discriminate regions?
What Labor is doing with west Tassie is like telling a GBE to offer cheap prices to certain suburbs.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
That is a problem in that Labor are not promising other parts of Australia to get FTTP, they have chosen a cherry picked location.
Oh rubbish zealot, as usual you are cherry picking snippets and ignoring the context. The Bendigo MP has let the cat out of the alp policy bag.
That is an Aus wide policy with the only missing piece of the puzzle HFC. We don't know if they'll use it or not.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Why aren' t they promising other parts of AU to get FTTP besides West Tassie?
Well lets think for a second...why oh why would they have chosen west Tassie...Couldn't possibly be they plan to deliver them the FTTP they were promised right from the get go. The same promise Turnbull made then reneged on. That couldn't possibly be it.
I won't deny that's simply blatant vote-mongering, but I don't disagree with it. They were promised FTTP initially for a reason. They (and the rest of Australia) damn well deserve it.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
a cost that is reportedly $10K per premise.
Source?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Even the Coalition has said the end goal is FTTP
Again, this begs the question. Why are they pissing $56b away on something that's going to get replaced in 5-10 years?! It's completely financially irresponsible and downright stupid!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the problem. By excluding the word FTTP leaves the ALP candidates to be unsure.
I do not see Clare going around saying FTTP.
Because not everyone knows what 'FTTP' means. 'Full fibre' is talking to the target audience by trimming down the jargon.
Bendigo's labor MP:
�Our ultimate goal is fibre to the premises for every household, every business. It may be a two-stage process where people already have fibre to the node, but for the rest of them, fibre to the premises.�
http://www.bendigoadvertise
That's quite a limb our Lisa has gone out on (and zealot, improve comprehension � two-stage for those already on FTTN and 'Labor will rollout FTTP' is exactly what she said). She did let the cat out of the bag, though it's very good news. Dare I say it's an indication of how to vote, if for no other reason than to get a reasonable NBN.
(Lisa Chesters went to my high school in Queensland. It's definitely her. That she became the federal member for the seat of Bendigo is monumental.)
Again, this begs the question. Why are they pissing $56b away on something that's going to get replaced in 5-10 years?! It's completely financially irresponsible and downright stupid!
Exactly, but their aim is to get something in the ground that brings in revenue to get the business going. Australia is paying dearly for that aim. The consequences are diabolical financially, alone.
Again, this begs the question. Why are they pissing $56b away on something that's going to get replaced in 5-10 years?! It's completely financially irresponsible and downright stupid!
Because it's about marketing a point of difference. This point of difference of 'cost saving' (initially, but way more in the long run) is about appealing to the less critically thinking, typically the elderly who don't, ON AVERAGE, appreciate higher speed internet. It wins votes and goes with the Libs slogans and rhetoric of 'Labor Waste' and wins them, swinging voters.
The irony is that the Libs are the wasteful ones and the poorer economic managers. Internet forums like these are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF SWINGING VOTERS CONCERNS.
typically the elderly who don't, ON AVERAGE, appreciate higher speed internet
Again, do you have any actual study or data that tells us this?
I think it would be wise to not pre-judge...my own experience tells me you are wrong, but that is just my own experience.
That's quite a limb our Lisa has gone out on (and zealot, improve comprehension � two-stage for those already on FTTN and 'Labor will rollout FTTP' is exactly what she said). She did let the cat out of the bag, though it's very good news.
I'm pretty sure Clare has previously mentioned the two stage process for FTTN as well, so it's starting to look like the upgrading of FTTN to FTTP at some point will be part of their policy. Hopefully this becomes official in due course. :)
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
What Labor is doing with west Tassie is like telling a GBE to offer cheap prices to certain suburbs.
Yes, but another way to look at it is simply making good on the Liberal's promise. Tassie was promised FTTP as all existing contracts were to be honoured. The libs then turned their back on this, and Tassie got screwed.
Because it's about marketing a point of difference. This point of difference of 'cost saving' (initially, but way more in the long run) is about appealing to the less critically thinking, typically the elderly who don't, ON AVERAGE, appreciate higher speed internet. It wins votes and goes with the Libs slogans and rhetoric of 'Labor Waste' and wins them, swinging voters.
Oh here we go again. The old chestnut about the "elderly" being tech illiterate. Where do you get off bagging the elderly sport. You might be surprised to find that a large portion of this demographic are a lot more tech savvy than you give them credit for. Stick to the debate and stop picking on one part of our community. As I have said elsewhere repeatedly there are a lot more important issues to be considered in Australia than FTTP. And don't give me the BS about FTTP being able to cure illness etc. Flame away.
Because it's about marketing a point of difference. This point of difference of 'cost saving' (initially, but way more in the long run)
As I've stated before if they wanted to market a point of difference, they should've pointed out labors failings with the FTTP rollout and then done it better. But sadly they chose a different model entirely...
Oh here we go again. The old chestnut about the "elderly" being tech illiterate.
I agree with you here, there's plenty of 'elderly' who are very tech literate, just as there are plenty of 'youths' who wouldn't have a clue about anything more technical how to facebook, tweet, snapchat/etc.
But that's detracting from the point.
As I have said elsewhere repeatedly there are a lot more important issues to be considered in Australia than FTTP
There certainly are, but to ignore what's going on (in relation to FTTN being rolled out instead of FTTP) is just downright foolish. To treat it as a non-issue is exactly what the lib party want, as they know it's a big issue, why else would they have started attacking the labor plan � which hasn't even been announced yet?
The old chestnut about the "elderly" being tech illiterate
The people who designed and wrote the basic internet protocols and infrastructure are pretty much all "elderly" now.
The people who designed and wrote the basic internet protocols and infrastructure are pretty much all "elderly" now.
Vincent Cerf and Robert Kahn, who gave us the TCP/IP protocols, are now 72 and 77 respectively. Tim Berners-Lee (of HTTP fame) is a relative youngster at "only" 60 (he's younger than me, anyway :) ).
Stick to the debate and stop picking on one part of our community.
Your doing a pretty good job of that and taking stuff out of context... or trying to generate context
And don't give me the BS about FTTP being able to cure illness etc.
That wasn't mentioned at all in that post and I have never seen anyone in these NBN threads make that claim with FTTP.
FTTP provides the best enabler for practitioners and 'patients' and the best opportunity for world's best practice health care particularly in regional and remote areas where there are no practitioners...no mention of curing.
As I have said elsewhere repeatedly there are a lot more important issues to be considered in Australia than FTTP.
Luckily people can do more than 1 thing at a time.
Would you rather spend money an technology that can't guarantee a speed and doesn't provide an roi � if so why?
For the people disputing age is negatively correlated to technology usage, why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP? It's because their base don't want it and see it as a waste of money.
What is the base of the Libs? A substantial portion is older people.
Don't believe me? Google the 2013 ABC Vote Compass and you will see the results of party voted for filtered by age � over 55 year olds comprised 60% of Lib voting in that age bracket, IIRC.
For the people disputing age is negatively
It's irrelevant wether you're correct or not. What matters is the libs are rolling out FTTN, labor are rolling out 'more fiber' (no idea how much though until they announce it).
For the people disputing age is negatively correlated to technology usage, why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP?
I happen to know that one of the few owners of an NBN Gigabit connection is an elderly couple in their 70s...
Greens also want FTTP
why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP?
Because they are heavily invested in Telstra...
I happen to know that one of the few owners of an NBN Gigabit connection is an elderly couple in their 70s...
I happen to understand the concept of data collection, statistics & averages
I happen to understand the concept of data collection, statistics & averages
Then you should use that knowledge more wisely...
Then you should use that knowledge more wisely...
No, I accept reality even when it upsets my worldview
No, I accept reality even when it upsets my worldview
Good...then you should attempt to seek an actual poll or other scientific means of proving your hypothesis.
For the people disputing age is negatively correlated to technology usage, why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP?
The discussion about the age of end users of FTTP is entirely fallacious. Why?
In a nutshell... the NBN is being built for the long term, it isn't just being built for today's use. This mean the "elderly" will (crudely) kick the bucket well before the network even remotely comes to the end of its life.
FTTP provides the best enabler for practitioners and 'patients' and the best opportunity for world's best practice health care particularly in regional and remote areas where there are no practitioners...no mention of curing.
Whilst not disagreeing with the premise that FTTP is better than FTTN, telemedicine relies on upload speeds from the doctor and patient, not download speeds. Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
More important is reliability, that is what sets FTTP apart.
More important is reliability, that is what sets FTTP apart
Also the ability to operate the medical service separately from the home owner's internet service. The medical service could be provided by the government department's RSP with a much better SLA than the residential service.
Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
Nonesense. You are quite correct upload is an important issue, however, so is reliability of connection for clear constant image display ...FTTN can't upload quick enough nor guarantee consistent image without buffering ...look at many of the ABC live interviews with pollies � not one survives without some buffering. I know which I'd prefer if I was in need of remote medical treatment. Combine data base searches with image display and interactive comms ...FTTN can't do it.
Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
Fttn is nice and stable then?
Doesn't drop out � 10-15 times a day.
Doesn't corrode or drop out when it rains?
Has no issues???
Fttn is nice and stable then?
Doesn't drop out � 10-15 times a day.
Doesn't corrode or drop out when it rains?
Has no issues???
I referred only to the speeds. I SUPPORT FTTP.
And to answer your questions: No FTTN does not drop out 10 to 15 times per day, Even fibre connections can break down as can ISP's. FTTP will not and never will be available to the really remote areas which will depend on wireless and satellite � both inherently more unreliable than FTTN.
And, to really throw a spanner in your works, remote medicine is bullshit. It is always a short term compromise and cannot and will not replace face-to-face medical consultation. It is inherently dangerous because of the limitations of clinical interaction from a remote camera making the likelihood of an error in diagnosis many times higher than in conventional medical practice.
And, to really throw a spanner in your works, remote medicine is bullshit.
Whilst remote diagnosis might be unlikely, remote monitoring is not. For example; remote monitoring and remote contact with elderly people might allow them to stay in their own homes longer before they need to move into aged care. It doesn't require high speed but it does require high reliability and it is best delivered via a dedicated service. It could save the government billions.
remote medicine is bullshit
I'd suggest you take a little holiday and drive through some regional and remote areas in large states and visit the medical resources available � if you can find them. I say regional because even smaller and middle sized medical services in regional locations suffer fairly badly in terms of decent, repeat, decent communications. Certainly in WA these pop up a number of hundreds of kms apart and service a number of remote communities....because that is all there is. Some have little more than dial up speeds if that. They would beg for ADSL anything right now.
It is always a short term compromise and cannot and will not replace face-to-face medical consultation
Do you not appreciate the capability of a specialist in any capital city hospital on line, with a nurse on a lap top with a car crash patient in say Balgo in WA, providing guidance and expertise thanks to visual and voice communications permitting interrogation with the nurse using procedural analysis and high resolution visual examination. Decision making can be made to deal on site with the problem or to instigate Royal Flying Doctor Services. It used to be just the latter or carry huge risks with delaying expensive flights out with RFDS. Pre preparation awaiting arrival at appropriate facilities can be put in train immediately. Life and death stuff in some instances. Doesn't take long to earn its keep.....Bullshit you say???
FYI private trials have been done in WA using particular tech associated with mobile service extension and reaching out to remote farm house medical problems using laptop. It worked but you can imagine the quality of regional mobile service, much worse than Fixed Wireless or Satellite capability NBN now affords. Just FTTP at one end is a bonus.
The only thing that really stops this happening right now is quality and reliability of comms and, believe it or not, Medicare bureaucracy as to how it gets approved and paid for etc ......
Face to face is optimal for sure, but today's FTTP type tech allows getting fairly close to that ...Heard about the heart operation done remotely by a specialist in New York with the patient in Paris France......special comms was set up for that but....
I dont think this will have to happen again because FTTP is already part of the MTM
Should NBN Co be instructed by a Labor govt to change back to HFC replacement and perhaps not accept handover of copper network and remediation and maintenance deal � because it should never have happened and is so fundamentally stupid to continue � there may well be renegotiations. Having the original agreement at hand will make that a straight forward process for the most part.
Lets face it, Telstra are very adept at playing one off the other for its own financial gain and there will be a price to pay but they will play ball ..for a price. They do after all want to stay in business and as we have seen govts can have their way if tehy really want to.
It's pretty much the same speed as the MTM but it doesn't have any FTTN and it delivers a better end result. Your rationale does not support the MTM.
The MTM has the highest IRR and NBN Co says that the MTM model delivers NBN upgrades on average two years sooner to underserved areas. There will definitely be a positive impact for those going from woeful speeds (less than 1 Mbps say) to good speeds (12 Mbps).
Even on the figures in the SR scenario 4 was only $10bn more than the MTM.
That's still money that has to be found by NBN Co.
They can even use the Coalition's own figures from the SR.
Unfortunately, the Labor's policy on the NBN is incoherent. It's six weeks to an election and they still haven't presented a good plan. The Coalition's preparations at the last election was detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
LNP better economic managers myth has been well and truly blow.
Agreed...in fact this was pointed out to ME by a die-hard LNP voter friend of mine who has grown quite disgusted.
That's still money that has to be found by NBN Co
Only if the Libs remain in power...I have no problem extended the debt overhead on an infrastructure project like this. The same happened on Snowy River, the first paved highways, the Sydney Harbour Bridge, etc...
Haven't heard that, but since this is not part of the budget, they can say that they have easily fit the change into the budget...:)
Election FactCheck: does Labor have a $19.5b black hole in its funding plan?
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
Fifield has been repeatedly asking Clare about costs and timelines for ALP's NBN policy for a long time now. Clare has had nearly three years to fully expand on issues such as end-user affordability, competition, and disaggregation before privatisation. As far as I'm concerned, Clare constantly runs away from the NBN economic debate.
The MTM has the highest IRR
Compared to what? Shares in Dick Smith?
to good speeds (12 Mbps)
12/1? The download is (just) OK, the upload is woefull. Working from home with a 1Mbps upload is an excersice in pain.
six weeks to an election and they still haven't presented a good plan
Still plenty of time, besides, they've dropped a lot of hints.
detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
Can I have whatever it is your smoking?
The benefits of a quick MTM rollout out are obvious; economic benefits will be reaped sooner.
Having seen this repeated repeatedly please tell us where and what the benefits are if FTTN/MTM is in such dire straits that the govt has had to stump up $500k of taxpayers money to work out how the hell they can keep funding the nbn MTM, potentially needing to be sold off reportedly...??
Labor should tell us their plans for the NBN.
Tell Australia the details of the current nbn and then....
pointing the finger elsewhere does not change the LNP failure to inform taxpayers what they are getting and paying for and maybe writing off at great expense to them. Current offerings are little more than advertising pamphlets with ploitical platitudes and 'motherhood' statements rather than any useful detail
Election FactCheck: does Labor have a $19.5b black hole in its funding plan?
Thanks for the link...so 19.5B over a 10 year time frame.
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
Funny you should say that, since the LNP had an increase in their estimate on the nbn from $29 Billion to as much as $56 Billion...that is a $27 Billion hole, is it not?
Clare has had nearly three years to fully expand on issues such as end-user affordability
Without access to the data...you suggest he should make stuff up the way Turnbull did at the last election?
All we know is that a full NBN will cost about $80 billion.
Here we go again...stop throwing figures up without substantiation and details...I reckon lets say it will only cost $1B...there you go that is the new fact!!!!!
Last I heard Mr Bowen had to find money to help cover a reported $20 billion budget hole.
You are referring to the $20B difference created by the different assumptions made by the Dept of Treasury and Parliamentary Budgets Office..not Bowen. When they sort it out then whoever is Treasurer will elect which to choose the assumptions if they can't. We have seen quite clearly Turnbull's/NBN Cos use of assumptions to jig up preferred outcomes � this is not different.
The cost of $80 billion matters
Yes it does, but promising a $29B network and turning it into as $56B+mess doesn't in your assessment apparently?...so do the decent thing and substantiate the details of that figure otherwise repetition doesn't create a fact....might be Goebble's type tactic but transparently futile
Whatever people say about Malcolm Turnbull no one can accuse him of not working hard to sell his version of the NBN
I agree, but I see no virtue in selling a complete falsehood to the electorate.
Quite the opposite actually...
We cannot confidently say the same about Clare. I don't believe he has the same deep understanding of the digital economy as Turnbull does
All evidence to the contrary...judging by Turnbull's plans and results, it appears that he knows very little about the stuff he was investing in. The only other possibility is that he was lying on purpose and was uncaring how poorly he treated the Australian people.
No doubt there will be a fairly definitive statement with FTTP as the ultimate objective...Shorten and Clare have already said so.
It means nothing to say FTTP is the ultimate objective if they do not commit to a FTTP straight away.
Even the Coalition has said FTTP is the end game. Both parties do not want to commit to a full FTTP rollout.
All Labor is doing is handballing the FTTP ultimate objective to a future govt. in 10-15 years time then voters will forget and the current pollies have moved on.
It's expected Labor will go with FTTdp (little to rollout since heavy FTTN contracts in place) and retain HFC and maintain FTTN contracts (Shorten said they will not unwind) and say FTTP will be done in 2nd stage that will be quickly forgetten when a new generation of pollies are in power.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All Labor is doing is handballing the FTTP ultimate objective to a future govt.
Until they are able to figure out just how badly the Libs have torn up the NBN, that is all that they CAN do.
It's expected Labor will go with FTTdp
Not by me, but OK...I don't think that they have yet had time to figure out what they can do.
To make wild claims months out from an election (or any time period before they have all the facts) is just irresponsible, and should be left to folks like Turnbull and the Libs...
The MTM has the highest IRR
Even on the rubbery figures in the SR the difference between scenario 4 and the MTM is just 0.6%. That's well within the margin of error and is a price worth paying anyway given the better result.
NBN Co says that the MTM model delivers NBN upgrades on average two years sooner to underserved areas.
Exhibit 4-3 in the SR shows the difference to be a few % only. But just look at the difference in the figures for the end result!
That's still money that has to be found by NBN Co.
Given the 10 year bond rate, that's the silliest way to fund the NBNCo. The government should just come clean on the implicit debt guarantee and fund the NBNCo with equity.
Unfortunately, the Labor's policy on the NBN is incoherent.
Actually, it's unannounced. What is "incoherent" is the variation in the speculation about what it might be. That's our fault, not Labor's :)
The Coalition's preparations at the last election was detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
Yep, but they turned out to be a whole load of camel crap.
Until they are able to figure out just how badly the Libs have torn up the NBN, that is all that they CAN do
There was nothing torn up since Labor handed a mess of an nbn to the Coalition with 2/3rd or premises only able to get a connection. The first nbn connection went live in 2010 in Tassie and Labor barely reached 200K that could order a service after lots of fanfare and heaps of capital spent.
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version.
by me, but OK...I don't think that they have yet had time to figure out what they can do.
Which will not be a return to universal FTTP
The Coalition released their plan in April 2013 and the election was in September.
The fully costed plan to give us all access to 25/5 by 2016? That was to cost $29B?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
There was nothing torn up
Except a globally competitive and reliable network...
The first nbn connection went live in 2010 in Tassie
Nope...that was a test connection. The NBN went commercially live in early 2012 when the first POI was delivered and the final Telstra document was signed.
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version
You mean the FTTN idea back in 2006? True...Telstra basically indicated that the copper was too far gone to proceed. Go figure...
Which will not be a return to universal FTTP
Is that what your Magic 8-Ball says?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version.
Conroy's gone from the portfolio and hopefully his 'do it once, do it right, do it with fibre' idiocy has gone with him. I think Clare has the common sense to consider cost-effective interim solutions that deliver the most benefit to the most people in the shortest time (eg. FTTB/dp for MDUs).
Which will not be a return to universal FTTP
The Coalition (used to) talk about universal FTTP as the end game but they didn't plan for it and now they've stopped talking about it. We'll see if Labor include a plan for it in their policy.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version.
Except the times when Jason Clare admitted the Labor NBN was rolling out too slow under their government.
Turnbull admit something when he's wrong? Hahahah.. never.
Except a globally competitive and reliable network...
Yup
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2531036
Reliable.
Pitiful more like it.
I can expect more of this crap happening with FTTNot working properly or at all.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It means nothing to say FTTP is the ultimate objective if they do not commit to a FTTP straight away.
Give you the tip Zealot you don't set the rules, if there are any... fixing Turnbull's massive stuff up has its unfortunate complexities...and huge costs. Doing it right for the people of this country and the businesses they run and the schools and medical facilities is what counts � not your apparent motivation � politics
Both parties do not want to commit to a full FTTP rollout.
Wrong � LNP pays lip service and doesn't care about the massive ansd wasteful total cost of doing nbn MTM and then FTTP to replace it (as distinct from upgrade because that is not possible).
Labor has been committed from day one to the most sensible and appropriate solution FTTP...no need for re-commitment, and your demands for that are very low priority I'd suggest...
It's expected
"It's" is just what/who ...or just a convenient generalisation.... Wild assumptions again trying to masquerade as 'fact' Zealot � attempt at perception management again???
Even on the rubbery figures in the SR the difference between scenario 4 and the MTM is just 0.6%. That's well within the margin of error and is a price worth paying anyway given the better result.
That was also based on a convenient short term time frame and subsequently disparaged for that. Long term ROI is far superior for FTTP medium and long term.
Cherry picking by supporters of nbn MTM out of the highly discredited SR which has as good as been consigned to the rubbish bin is foolhardy and irresponsible.
The government should just come clean on the implicit debt guarantee and fund the NBNCo with equity
Don't think they can continue if ROI drops below threshold justifying NBN as an investment, therefore off budget loans no longer possible. It becomes an on budget taxpayer expense otherwise. One wonders if Turnbull contrived this situation through SR assumptions.
I think Clare has the common sense to consider cost-effective interim solutions that deliver the most benefit to the most people in the shortest time
I'd suggest the failure to perform by NBN Co with nbn MTM in all aspects you note would clearly justify Conroy's position to
'do it once, do it right, do it with fibre'
Because NBN Co has to find a way to recover that $80 billion cost. We don't know if Labor will be able to credibly manage that. If they can't do that then that would drive up prices.
The MTM is a complete failure. On every measure. The $1 billion a year maintenance on copper is going to cost more than the extra finance charges required on borrowing some more money.
The country cant afford NOT to do FTTP. Turnbull handing $11 billion to Telstra for corroded copper, cracked joints and busted ducts full of asbestos was probably the worst commercial decision of all time.
The MTM is a complete failure. On every measure.
Fascinating isn't it? MTM failure is the cause of a potential $80B (if that can be believed... apparently can't be substantiated ... just plucked out of thin air it seems) yet it is Labor's problem?? Screw up what you like and make it someone else's problem ... just so terrifically responsible � that's what politics has got to it seems
The benefits of a quick MTM rollout out are obvious; economic benefits will be reaped sooner. Older Australians deserve to share in all those benefits. That's why it's so important to finish the NBN as soon as possible.
There is no such thing as FINISH with the MTM roll out.
So your proposing we stop at 100Mbits (if we win NodeLotto) and thats it for this century? There is no upgrade path for FTTN.
Your idea is to roll it out the door as fast as possible, as cheap as possible, with the lowest level of service and aimed to be thrown away if you wanted something remotely better. With this mindset, I'd like to sell you something, its good for the economy (my wallet) and the environment.
At least with FTTP, the upgrades are possible, least intrusive and on demand when needed. If only the libs thought that way.
The MTM has the highest IRR and NBN Co says that the MTM model delivers NBN upgrades on average two years sooner to underserved areas. There will definitely be a positive impact for those going from woeful speeds (less than 1 Mbps say) to good speeds (12 Mbps).
If they are getting 1Mbps on ADSL/ADSL2+, then that copper is truly crap. They will not be winning any node lotto. Those drop outs that take 30 minutes � 2 hours to reconnect will be fun.
I look forward to them signing up for that and complaining. Then what will MTMco do? reroll copper to their homes?
You do realise if they had decent copper they wouldn't be on 1Mbps? they would be closer to 10-20Mbps on ADSL2+.
LOL going from 1Mbps to 12Mbps FTTN, such a leap in today's global internet race.
"MTMFailCo, FTTN dropouts included, courtesy and supplied by the dropkick Malcolm Turnbull"
https://twitter.com/Feeney4B
Taking it to the streets
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
They have been competent in choosing FTTP fibre network to 93% of Australians.
Where as the coalition plan to murder 56 Billion on FTTN .
The FTTP rollout was planned to reach approximately 93% of premises in Australia by June 2021.
The country cant afford NOT to do FTTP. Turnbull handing $11 billion to Telstra for corroded copper, cracked joints and busted ducts full of asbestos was probably the worst commercial decision of all time.
Or a decision that should be investigated by the ICAC for any corruption or vested interest connections by those making the decision and executing the decision.
The $1 billion a year maintenance on copper is going to cost more than the extra finance charges required on borrowing some more money.
Interesting point I had not previously considered.
- 15 year Government bond rate is currently 2.52%
- At $1 Billion per year, NBNco could have borrowed an extra $39.7 billion dollars for FTTP rollout costs.
Almost 40 BILLION MORE dollars could have been invested to create an FTTP based network when compared to the MTM, at no additional OPEX to NBN.
An FTTP based network provides increased capability for higher ARPU � not just through higher bandwidth plans being procured at the residential level (because they can actually achieve that connection speed), but also business grade connections could be provided with SLAs and commensurate higher charges.
Your idea is to roll it out the door as fast as possible, as cheap as possible, with the lowest level of service and aimed to be thrown away if you wanted something remotely better.
Meets the political imperative...only....bloody useless otherwise!
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
They have � the only successful terrestrial comms in place is FTTP going by the problems FTTN is having as evidenced in FTTN threads....and it is earning the revenue, not FTTN
They can even use the Coalition's own figures from the SR.
What we do know now about the FttN assupmtions in the SR is that they are out by a factor of 2. Comparisons in the section regarding NPV benefit costed FttP to 3.6 million premises (the initial FttN footprint) at $8Billion NPV. Fttn to those premised was costed at $2Billion.
Astonishingly, FttP has remained exactly the same cost to install as claimed in the SR. There have been none of the savings that seem typical in virtually all other FttP rollouts over time (Actually I think the last CCP figure I saw was about $150 lower).
The most disturbing aspect of this to me is that that my understanding is that the actual FttP architecture has changed to one that is less flexible (certainly lower fibre counts) with less redundancy (this might be only for skinny fibre in future).
Labor can easily make a case for switching to scenario 4.
More recent articles about the cost of upgrading to DOCSIS 3.1 are calling into question the perceived benefit of HFC over FttP.
Labour had the right idea from the start. Mike Quigley (in 2012/13?) made a statement to one of the committees in response to a question about G.Fast (I have searched for the actual quote but cant find it).
It was along the lines of � PARAPHRASING 'it would be imprudent to design a national network rollout (in 2010) around technologies that are unproven and not likely to be commercially available until some time in the future
He was right then and events since merely reinforce the point.
I actually agree with that principle...with caveats. I think that FTTB should have been allowed
I worked on the build phase of 6 to 12 story MDUs, with between 4 and 6 units a floor, though the 70s into the 80s as a Sparky
In most of those the MDF was in the Electrical Meter/Switchroom and there would not be any room to install a FTTB cabinet
We did all the "block cabling".
The phone cables ran up a riser, shared with the power cables for each unit.
There was what was classed as a IDF at the time, but is now called a junction box, on each floor for the units and conduits from this location to phone points in each unit.
In these buildings to install fibre it would not have required any building modification, BUT one floor would have needed its copper removed to give access to pull in the fibre needed. A temporary solution for those residents could have been provided to permit the install of fibre for every one. It would have only required a multiport to be installed in in the riser at each floor
The units that would be much harder were the 2 and 3 story built from the late 40s on, they usually had no "risers" or Switchrooms so here there would again be no room for a FTTB cabinet.
I think one reason nbn� are using FTTN for a lot of units rather than FTTB is the lack of room in the property for the equipment, not so much body corporate issues. It is also these blocks that TPG are ignoring as well.
NBN has the power under the legislation to install without Body Corporate permission if they follow proper process, and as TPG proved in court they can tap straight into "common property power" they do not need to run their own "mains supply"
What they can do is though explain the current situation left by the LNP, stop all new planned fttn from the day they get elected and change those areas to fttdp or fttp
I think that's the best we can hope for honestly, atleast fttdp has an easy upgrade path to fttp if the customer wants to go that route or it ends up getting built on later down the line.
The Labor party cannot afford to leave older Australians behind.
Nor are they.
The benefits of a quick MTM rollout out are obvious
Unfortunately we haven't gotten a quick MTM rollout at all. We've gotten delays and budget blow outs.
Labor should tell us their plans for the NBN.
I agree.
Will Labor's NBN cost $80 billion?
Only according to Turnbull and his dodgy figures.
How long will Labor's NBN take to finish?
Already been covered. 1-3 years longer than FTTN would've. Not a long time in the scheme of things.
These are all questions that need immediate answers from Mr Clare and Mr Shorten.
I can think of a rather large list of questions that need immediate answers from Mr Fifield and Mr Turnbull. But they'll never get answered because that's just not how the LNP do things. FUD and obfuscation all the way.
All we know is that a full NBN will cost about $80 billion.
No, we don't know that at all. We know that's what Turnbull and Co. are claiming, based on a bunch of undisclosed, impossible to verify or replicate figures.
full fibre NBN will be completed in ten years time
Just as incorrect. Please, provide some credible source that verifies this information, or quit peddling LNP lies.
The cost of $80 billion matters
Because it's a made up figure that needs to be explained by the LNP. Until that happens it should be treated as what it is. A blatant lie.
because Labor the liberals need to show that they are economically responsible.
Fixed that for you. You, and the LNP need to answer this question. What's more economically responsible, spending $56b, then spending another $80b (using your figure as we don't have an accurate figure yet) to replace the original $56b, or spending $80b?
Because NBN Co has to find a way to recover that $80 billion cost.
Quit throwing around $80b, as we have no evidence to substantiate that cost! I'm not denying that FTTP will be more expensive than FTTN, but all the facts point to it being vastly superior in every possible metric, at a slightly higher cost and time to roll out. Even if it was $100b, it still makes more sense to spend $100b once, than spend $56b then $100b. That's basic math, ignoring all the other relevant information (such as return/etc.).
The MTM has the highest IRR
I'm sorry, but what? source? links? any evidence whatsoever to support this claim? Pretty sure I know you'll ignore this as every shred of credible evidence points to the opposite.
The Coalition's preparations at the last election was detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
Hahaha, yes it was 'detailed'. "We've got a fully costed, ready to go NBN plan". Detailed indeed.
Clare constantly runs away from the NBN economic debate.
And frankly I can see why he's doing so. Why should the ALP say anything, when what the LNP is saying is far more damning for the LNP?
I'd love to see what the ALP plan is, but up until now they've had no real need to do anything but sit back and watch the LNP FTTN lies come to light and self-destruct.
No, we don't know that at all. We know that's what Turnbull and Co. are claiming, based on a bunch of undisclosed, impossible to verify or replicate figures.
Like when they claimed it would cost $90B but then admitted how their own review estimated it would only be $55.9B so the $90B estimate they were throwing was just "a little higher again from that number".
From $55.9B $90B.... a 61% difference is just "a little higher"? Gee I wish I got paid just "a little higher" than what I do now then.
I wonder if their $80B is also just "a little higher" from the actual estimation.
That may be true but FttP opex costs are not zero.
Also true, and yes okay we should probably look at the overall difference in OPEX.
Any equation that compares differential opex must take both into account. I have seen (but cant be bothered finding them ATM) sources that suggest the opex cost of FttP compared to FttN is ~20%. I am happy to be corrected.
Based on NBN Co numbers it is about 62% of FTTN. However if we want to talk about MtM as a whole then we really need to include HFC in the calculation. Again working backwards from the information that has either leaked or disclosed HFC OPEX is a little over double that of FTTN, I am however willing to compromise on exactly double. Excluding 20% for FTTB and adding in the 4 million premises scheduled for HFC I get $1.69B annually in OPEX, for those same 8 million premises all on FTTP I get $705 million, or about $985 million a year difference in OPEX.
I will absolutely agree though that the straw that breaks the camels back in this situation is the HFC component, however even if all 8 million premises were FTTN the difference would be almost half a billion (~$420m), but this is less an argument for FTTP and more against HFC.
Sorry but I simply don't see this happening. Are you saying the nbnTM revised agreements bring forward payments?
I will admit that I haven't independently verified this claim, but it is something I have heard through somewhat trusted sources.
Like when they claimed it would cost $90B but then admitted how their own review estimated it would only be $55.9B so the $90B estimate they were throwing was just "a little higher again from that number".
Its another one of these cases, there was a news story a few weeks ago that I can't seem to find now where NBN Co admitted that a return to fibre would be in the range of $8-10b more than the current rollout strategy, which puts the top price at $66b, surely $80 billion is only a little bit over ;)
which puts the top price at $66b, surely $80 billion is only a little bit over ;)
And yet Kingy and Co. keep banging on about $80b like it's 1) accurate and 2) set in stone. Gotta love it!
Gotta love it!
The golden part is that they really have not convinced any of us one iota, yet bless their little cotton socks they try.
:0>
yet bless their little cotton socks they try.
They're certainly determined, I'll give them that much.
$80b
I thought it was $90b?! I keep losing track of my billions.. I have Turnbull disease
I thought it was $90b?! I keep losing track of my billions..
Some rubbery figure that's more than FTTN and more than the reality.
I have Turnbull disease
Become a politician, you'll be rolling in your own variable billions soon enough!
return to fibre would be in the range of $8-10b
And worth every dollar.
Detailed analysis of NBN Co�s finances shows FTTP better value than FTTN
"Ferrers� analysis suggests, he wrote, that FTTP ended up being better financial value than FTTN when the NBN company�s operational expenditure and projected revenue figures were examined six and a half years after each technology was deployed.
This fact, he said, came from the fact that FTTP was significantly cheaper to run on an ongoing basis ($90 less per connection per year), but also generated more average revenue (close to $25 per month or $300 per annum per connection).
�This difference totals about $30 per month,� in favour of FTTP, Ferrers wrote. �This is a total net benefit of $390 per household per year for using FTTP over using FTTN.�
Consequently, the analyst wrote, the capital expenditure difference between the two technologies (FTTP costs about $2,300 more per premise to install than FTTN) would be earned back in 76 months � or about six and a third years.
Over the long term, according to the analyst, this would add up to many billions of dollars � for example, $9 billion in total over ten years. �The longer FTTN remains in place, the greater the foregone benefit for not switching to FTTP,� he wrote.
there was a news story a few weeks ago that I can't seem to find now where NBN Co admitted that a return to fibre would be in the range of $8-10b more than the current rollout strategy,
This one?
https://delimiter.com.a
There's not enough there to know exactly what that figure represents. Is it capex or total funding? If it's total funding I would have expected Labor to make much more noise about it. If it's just capex then I think we're still in the $10-15bn ballpark for more total funding. We need more information.
I wonder if Conroy is working on the alp nbn policy?
Maybe we should sack the board and sub it out to the NZ mob.?
where under labor, busted ducts and asbestos was a Telstra problem, its now an NBN problem.
Oddly that is not a material change and nor is ownership of copper and HFC (sunk assets) and maintenance costs � all added to original agreement...but not material change to original Telstra Agreement...hmmmmm
possibly the worst deal ever. Buying a network with no idea as to its condition. Such a bad deal, that remediation costs end up 10 times worse than expected.
Turnbull the 'great' merchant banker and supposedly great negotiator backed himself in a corner big time by committing to the opposite of NBN V1...at all costs...and taxpayers will like carry that can
I think Labor can just keep the agreement as it is.
yep just change the SoE to not preclude FTTP by stealth...
Senate Estimates Morrow quote?
The problem here is that Morrow's numbers simply don't add up � nor I might add "reflect" the deployment costs that are being evidenced in the global rollout of Fibre Optic Networks around the world!
One but has to look at New Zealand where in their more challenging topography they are deploying their Fibre Optic Network for $1600 per premise passed which is now LESS than what is being pissed down the gurgler on the LNP's MTM they continue to persist with!
In fact "Costs" are one of the few area's that that Morrow and the LNP- in fact lead the world in � eg!
Whilst the LNP also win the prize for being the only Government on this planet to have procured obsolete copper from an existing Telco on which to attempt to deliver redundant 20th century FTTN services on to its citizens!
Noting that we are yet to see the "further" blow out costs to their much delayed and already blown to buggery and deployment costs for EOL (End of Life) HFC and FTTN networks � as previously announced in their "now" $56 billion MTM model!
One thing is for sure, and that is Labor's Policy will have to address the disaster that MTM has become not to mention its budgetary and revenue position which are pretty much in freefall compared to Labor's last published Corporate Plan!
We've also seen reports of Fibre ports being stolen, Fibre dropping out of connectors, NTDs falling off the wall
Have we? feel like providing links/sources? as this is the first I've heard of it.
plenty of speeds issues thanks to the CVC charges
All the speed issues I've seen are for FTTN connections. Links/sources for FTTP CVC issues?
Do we? Or did he just want to investigate using it? This is a serious question as I am unsure what the case actually was.
That was what I understood from what I heard/read at the time. I could be wrong.
At the Joint Committee hearing on 20 April 2013 Quigley said ...
There is a percentage that really do have basements and really do have main distribution frames and you can treat them as such. Obviously we looked at the option of running fibre into the basement, putting a small DSLAM into the basement and then using the existing copper. That has certain attractions, obviously, as you do not get into structural separation issues because normally that copper is owned by the building owner. There is no question there is a saving to be had by not having to fibre a multidwelling unit, but there are some other issues that need to be dealt with, such as how you ensure that you get analog voice, which is a tricky issue. What I am really trying to say is that there is not a simple answer. It needs some very careful work because applying analog voice in that situation is nontrivial.
I'm not sure why analogue voice is a problem as it just requires an ATA (?) in place of the NTD. (non-techie alert)
What was reported was ...
NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley later clarified the company would carry out the government�s policy.
�There are obviously ways you can look at doing MDUs using copper," he said. �We would be remiss if we didn�t have a look at that, it�s the obvious thing to do.
�But it�s a policy decision and the government has been absolutely clear on what the policy is, it�s to provide fibre to the premises into all MDUs. That�s what we�re executing on, that�s what�s happening."
http://www.afr.
There may be other reports but it's hard to find stuff from back then.
The problem here is that Morrow's numbers simply don't add up
so it was Bill who inherited Joe's calculator!!
although on second thoughts, with some of the other numbers coming from the Liberal Party they must have purchased a batch lot from the reject shop and handed them out to all Ministers and other party acolytes.
I mean, fully costed MTM plan of $29 Billion is now over 50
Those calculators might be better used as Die in a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Diplomacy, they seem pretty good random number generators
I think there's close to $1bn pa in lower opex and higher revenue for FTTP over FTTN.
If you look at my last couple of posts I did the maths based on leaked documents, for an all FTTN network the difference is about half a billion, and for MTM it's about a billion excluding the FTTB component.
please or is this again your guess, and over what period is your long term....
The official bond rate for 10 years hit a record low this month at 2.2% so quite frankly copper man is speaking out his ass
We've also seen reports of Fibre ports being stolen, Fibre dropping out of connectors, NTDs falling off the wall
You are going to have to specify the time frames (pre/post 2013 election) for these claims as well as some evidence to bear any credibility.
I had some issues with post 2013 election when a couple of young Bangaldeshi kids installed my service � they weren't the problem themselves so much as they were two weeks off the boat (457 visas one presumes) and little training and resourcing by NBN Co. Being able to communicate would have helped for starters.
This should not be attributed to FTTP technology/infrastructure but rather the NBN Co work and fundamental business practices.
FTTP is not the problem as you seem to be trying to claim rather NBN Co itself.
I'm not sure why analogue voice is a problem as it just requires an ATA (?) in place of the NTD.
At that stage, NBN judged voip over copper to be an inferior service. It doesnt meet power backup requirements. VDSL drops � remember fttn allows 6 drops per day before it can be investigated � and syncing may take 2 minutes. QOS can still be an issue depending on routers.
NBN via FTTP was providing a fully managed analogue service from the NTD � with battery backup. An ATA is outside their network, not battery backed up, and outside of their control.
Suddenly we move to an MTM, and these issues and considerations just conveniently disappear without discussion.
All the speed issues I've seen are for FTTN connections. Links/sources for FTTP CVC issues?
The CVC issue stems from the fact that the shift to MTM has destroyed the financials of the NBN and NBN Co needs to keep the CVC high to try and make some money.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor somehow announce a return to FTTP then they will need to answer the question on how much more ARPU since as you say $40B is needed to build FTTP. The long term interest rate is closer to 5% and the NBN will need to pull in a min $2B in net cashflow just to break even on the Interest cost.
Way to misinterpet my words GMZ.
I did not say FTTP would cost $40B more to build.
I indicated that the additional $1B** OPEX needed for MTM could have covered the interest for an additional almost $40B of CAPEX for FTTP. This does not in any way say that an FTTP rollout would cost $40B more than the MTM.
The 15 year rate on Government bond when I wrote my post was 2.52% (now 2.59%), which would indicate that's the rate that NBNco are receiving money from the Federal Government at.
http://www.bloomberg.com/mar
The RBA has 10 year bonds hovering in the mid 2's also:
http://www.rba.gov.au/c
I would shudder to think a government backed enterprise would be paying consumer based interest rates.
**$1B is indicative based on other comments / data in this thread, again used to show just how expensive the MTM is when compared to the FTTP based NBN.
Even at � a $Billion per year we're still looking at ~$20B in additional CAPEX availability.
If the change to FTTP is only 8.5-10B extra, it would still be break even if NBNco are charged retail pricing of ~5%.
ie:
Break even at retail interest pricing, ie: no cost differential between MTM and FTTP NBN.
I would shudder to think a government backed enterprise would be paying consumer based interest rates.
especially because at least on the initial investment they are not. The government is raising the investment capital with bonds, technically the interest is covered by the tax payer, but thats where the return on investment comes in.
**$1B is indicative based on other comments / data in this thread
I will stand by my comments of $1B for MTM ex. 1m premises for FTTB vs 93% FTTP too, I've used actual figures from leaked NBN Co documents to arrive at that figure, and if anyone wants to challenge it I welcome them to do so without using speculative figures. That figure includes no opex for those million FTTB premises so if the FTTB portion is more than 20% of the 5 million FTTN premises that figure is not really going to effect the outcome unless that ends up being half of all FTTN premises, and if the figure is 20% or less, the difference is going to be even larger.
Even at � a $Billion per year we're still looking at ~$20B in additional CAPEX availability.
When the project started the bond rate was 5.39% so the first few bonds leveraged for the NBN will have that higher rate. Treasury and the department of finance have indicated that they are using 10 year bonds not 15 year bonds for NBN investment, so now is really the time to make available that extra capital they need. at the current 2.35% the interest is cheaper than ever predicted under the preliminary recommendations to go off-budget.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This $11 Billion deal was initiated by Labor 5-6 years ago
No it wasn't...all Labor were buying was access and customers. Turnbull bought a HUGE amount of liability by taking ownership and making the taxpayer responsible for repairs and cleanup.
If you look at my last couple of posts I did the maths based on leaked documents, for an all FTTN network the difference is about half a billion ...
Yep. You were just looking at opex though. I've added in foregone revenue to get it up to a billion. I think that's fair.
Yep. You were just looking at opex though. I've added in foregone revenue to get it up to a billion. I think that's fair.
I'm not quite sure thats a reasonable assumption, using the backwards engineered figures from plan b again, I get about $150 million lost revenue on FTTN and $107.6 million on MTM, which again is another argument against HFC because for half a billion in extra operating costs per year, you gain $42.4 million in revenue, leaving about $450 million in the negative on the cost/benefit ratio, even with the extra 21 months of revenue under their predictions, the operating costs in the first year alone strip the benefit of early revenue, in either example.
Looking closer at the Plan B documents, it does everything it can to make FTTP as least desirable as possible and still fails at that. The claim at the bottom is that the lower OPEX is largely due to not running as long on the lease payments, but you can't include the lease payments in the OPEX for FTTP as they are using the revised $4,400 CPP figure for FTTP which includes the cost of the lease payments.
And with that, I'm done basing any further analysis off these documents as the numbers are deliberately misleading.
t the current 2.35% the interest is cheaper than ever predicted under the preliminary recommendations to go off-budget.
so had NBN V1 continued, in every respect it would have benefited financially whereas FTTN MTM with reduced revenue would get marginal benefit, hence the problem now confronted with future debt servicing ...and in fact current fund raising as it is a far greater risk than expected due to lack of performance. Usually that means no finance or higher interest rates...gets worse and worse...
All Labor's fault of course... /S
I'm not quite sure thats a reasonable assumption, using the backwards engineered figures from plan b again, I get about $150 million lost revenue on FTTN and $107.6 million on MTM ...
Even the SR (exhibit 4-6) has a loss of $300m in revenue from FTTP to the MTM.
My point is ... the 'do it right, do it once, do it with fibre' thing prevents the NBNCo from considering any interim solutions.
Its the only way most of Australia, particularly, regional and suburban Australia will get long term solutions in a cost effective manner. As we see with the inclusion of interim solutions in those areas, with no plan for actually upgrading it, they will be stuck on that technology for many, many years now. Windsor was correct saying do it once, do it right. He is from a regional area and regional areas have already suffered decades of being under-served with no plan to provide ubiquity or equality that is badly needed.
A serious part of me hopes that Labor just "scraps" the NBN completely and then restarts back where it left off with FTTP. As someone who isn't even on the 3 year rollout, I'll rather wait 5 years for FTTP than 3+ years for FTTN.
Also just Gulag Ziggy, Morrow, the entirety of News Corp staff in Nauru or whatever for their crimes against this country, actually forced labour would be better, make them with their bare hands work on rolling out FTTP in the field. "No shovel for you comrades, you're hands are good enough!".
As you can tell I've had a hard time with my connection recently.
Yep. Any interim solution has to be planned with the end goal of FTTP in mind.
That has to include a cost of getting there and details of how NBN Co are going to make a return sufficient to cover that necessary future cost. Turnbull says his plan has FTTP in mind. We cannot get their using Turnbull MTM plan though. Its goingt o struggle to even pay for itself, let alone provide extra to cover the necessary FTTP upgrade.
A serious part of me hopes that Labor just "scraps" the NBN completely and then restarts back where it left off with FTTP.
They cant now. The Libs have made such a mess that it cant be easily fixed, but they have also effectively added a 2 � year delay in the project, and so further delay to fix the project properly (going back to 93% FTTP) would be political suicide. Clare will have to replace FTTN with something better, that is not going to introduce more delay, and also increase the amount of fresh FTTP in as many areas as possible. The big question will be, what happens to the poor suckers who already have FTTN? They are likely to move to the back of the FTTP upgrade line.
As you can tell I've had a hard time with my connection recently.
You arent the Lone Ranger. There are many people with an MTM connection that are complaining about it.
yep just change the SoE to not preclude FTTP by stealth...
They just need to tighten up the SOE's wording a bit. If it included value for money and running cost instead of just saying 'cost' it would make FTTN and HFC ineligible.
And they should reframe it as being a good investment rather than just cheap, which would deal with the much lower revenue potential of FTTN.
The big question will be, what happens to the poor suckers who already have FTTN? They are likely to move to the back of the FTTP upgrade line.
Yep, unfortunately that will be the likely outcome for those of us consigned to wonderful copper. It would be good if they can at least provide us with a more realistic option to pay for our own FTTP upgrade/replacement for those who really need it, unlike the current ridiculous (virtually non) option.
Ben Grubb ?@bengrubb 3m3 minutes ago
Ooft. Labor office being raided by police in Melbourne, according to @leighsales. Tony Burke says it's over the leaking of NBN documents.
Labor office being raided by police in Melbourne, according to @leighsales. Tony Burke says it's over the leaking of NBN documents.
Can't have transparency or foi can we..?
That's not going to do lnp any favors
Ben says it's probably due to this leak
Daaamn. It's getting real. *grabs popcorn*
Can't have transparency or going, can we..
That's not going to do lnp any favors
What a waste of taxpayers money, the documents leaked are of public interest. The Coalition are so desperate that they get the AFP to silence transparency and no doubt fishing for the ALP NBN policy.
The Coalition are so desperate that they get the AFP to silence transparency and no doubt fishing for the ALP NBN policy
Bound to blow up in their faces.
LNP getting desperate? nah that's not their style.
Oh wait its totally their golden infused suit.
Kieran Gilbert @Kieran_Gilbert
Stephen Conroy's Melb office currently being raided by AFP in relation to NBN leaks, staffer's home in Brunswick will also be raided #auspol
Drawing attention to the NBN and the content of the NBN documents related to the AFP raid could result in a net negative for the Federal Coalition as far as the upcoming election goes. Even if it does claim the scalp of both Conroy and the whistleblower.
Kieran Gilbert @Kieran_Gilbert
Stephen Conroy's Melb office currently being raided by AFP in relation to NBN leaks, staffer's home in Brunswick will also be raided #auspol
And we hope that Stephen is smart enough to not have any incriminating evidence in the office...
Finally the NBN is back in the headlines
I hope this backfires in the coalitions face. Drawing attention to leaks which are evident of their failure on the project.
I hope this backfires in the coalitions face. Drawing attention to leaks which are evident of their failure on the project.
Have a feeling that's exactly what will happen. The public will be asking themselves "what do they have REALLY have to hide!".
Maybe Abbots mates in the AFP doing him a favor to further discredit Turnbull.
I hope this backfires in the coalitions face. Drawing attention to leaks which are evident of their failure on the project.
I think it will backfire bigtime
it will tell us his second rate network is costing the same as the so called "gold plated" network
so peopel will surely ask why.
So much for the usual suspects here telling us that the NBN and fast broadband are a non-issue. It appears that the LNP don't agree with them.
Ha!
deleted
I don't think it is co-incidental that this has been done at the start of the weekend news cycle, because people typically don't watch the news from Friday to Sunday. They know this very well.
Labor will have to find a way to fan the flames so that it will still be an issue on Monday.
^^ This.
In maybe a big way as apparently the homes of around 20 NBNCo employees have also been raided.
In maybe a big way as apparently the homes of around 20 NBNCo employees have also been raided.
Good.. might actually lead to lnp figure..
We were told the NBN wasn't an election issue. It was supposed to be kept under a rock with the other roaches. It certainly will be an issue now.
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo. So basically they've triggered the raids of their own staff
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo. So basically they've triggered the raids of their own staff
Yes.. heads will roll.. Hope come the lnp ministers escape scrutiny? Could have been an inside job..
Political views arise, we wait to see who requested the raids, why, and on what grounds.....
Dreyfus was on Lateline on ABC News 24. He is not a happy chappy. I missed most of the interview but apparently the AFP investigation was requested by the NBNCo. I'll catch it later on ABC.
Yes.. heads will roll.. Hope come the lnp ministers escape scrutiny? Could have been an inside job..
Surely the place to run too is obvious. With so many FTTP gardens dug up in the remains of Labor's FTTP rollout. there are plenty of holes in those gardens to hide in. Find a hole. Hide in it. Because Bill Morrow was right about digging up those gardens.
/s
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo.
OR, the AFP just want to know when their own houses are getting FTTP ...
In maybe a big way as apparently the homes of around 20 NBNCo employees have also been raided.
but, but, the employee satisfaction survey said they were all happy so why would they leak?
why would they leak?
indeed. as common sense says (i know i know.. its the MTM so this goes out the window), leaks happen because there is something ready to burst and it wants to get out!
I notice not a peep from The Australian.
On Sky News, the scrolling news at the bottom of the screen is all about these raids
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo.
And no doubt the Coalition requested NBNCo to refer it in hope to shut the doors of transparency (ie: the leaks). The Coalition isn't that stupid to try and distance itself.
Ben says it's probably due to this leak
I wonder if Mark Kenny might do an NBN article tomorrow morning in SMH .....
So why are they investigating alp offices , when the alp asked for the investigations to start with?
I think he is referring to other matters not NBN with the 20 requests...
What are the AFP hoping to find? afaik Labor hasn't done anything wrong by receiving leaked documents.
What is being sought is the source within NBN Co ....and the opportunity to take the heat off the flagging prospects of the LNP by diverting attention from policies because they have none other than corporate tax reduction and a fear campaign with asylum seekers ....and that won't hold for another six weeks. The budget has only 29% approval rating as well so that's a dud too.
Regardless, there is nothing wrong in Labor receiving anonymous NBN information � if they have done something illegal with it then they have something to answer for. The focus has to be NBN Co source and that can be construed there is lots more bad news for Turnbull....
and the opportunity to take the heat off the flagging prospects of the LNP by diverting attention
The LNP are in a winning position. I would think drawing attention to the NBN would be the last thing they would want to do.
Dreyfus was on Lateline on ABC News 24. He is not a happy chappy. I missed most of the interview but apparently the AFP investigation was requested by the NBNCo. I'll catch it later on ABC.
The LNP are in a winning position.
Barely, but when the cornerstone of their campaign � the budget (supposedly different to Abbott's) is dead in the water with polls showing 29% acceptance something has to change. Morrisson has failed dismally there. It is more than apparent Turnbull doesn't want to talk about NBN other than in glancing comments so clearly there are issues there for him.
http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll ...Lab 52.5 to lnp 47.5 with other still 51/49 Labors way...as I said barely and the trend is swinging to Labor and there are 6 weeks to go.
I would think drawing attention to the NBN would be the last thing they would want to do.
Can't disagree � it does not make sense. Who knows there might be an Abbott factor here...doesn't the Attorney General Brandis (close Abbott ally?) need to be involved in AFP directives for political searches? Turnbull's appointment to Minister for Comms with the agenda directive from Abbott to destroy NBN regarded by many as a political poison chalice...is this the last hurrah (almost maybe) for Abbott?
Surprise, surprise!
Front page story on Limited News' Herald Sun.
http://heraldsun.digitaleditions.com.au/?code=401
Desperate people, do desperate things!
Front page headline on http://www.theaustralian.com.au/ now
Raided: Conroy�s office, adviser�s house
Live: A police raid on Labor front�bencher Stephen Conroy�s Melbourne office late last night has sparked a �political storm.
No mention
(a) of NBN in the headline.
(b) that it's all about who at NBN that leaked the documents or to find more documents that are about to be leaked
Assuming most people that look at the online or offline media only get as far as looking at the headlines online or offline and don't actually read the story, the editorial choice and tone of words and pictures to use or not use in headlines is potentially very powerful.
The owners of The Australian clearly do not want discussion on the Federal Coalition's NBN/MTM seeing as
(a) how they virtually unquestioningly supported the creation of this Mongrel
(b) they generally support and back the "Conservative" side of politics that created it
(c.) Tony Abbott, signed off on the NBN/MTM. He is ex staff, and potential future staff or at least a lobbyist ongoing in some form for many of the Australian owners preferred policies (see http://www.ipa.org.au/ for more details)
(d) Peta Credlin, is now working for Sky
(e) Henry Ergas (consultant on the MTM) is either an employee or contractor for them
(f) the MTM model, destruction of the previous NBN model, and likely outcome of the MTM, suits their short, medium and long term goals in Australia
Clearly the intention is to smear Labour. I hope people will have their attention drawn to the fact that Liberal policy has severely damaged the whole NBN concept and is a complete fail & waste of money compared to the previous quality plan.
I hope this smear attempt backfires badly on the instigators.
Front page story on Limited News' Herald Sun.
http://heraldsun.digitaleditions.com.au/?code=401
With headlines of
Campaign Bombshell
AFP Executes warrants on senator's office
Probe launched into ALP mole in NBN ranks
COPS RAID LABOR The main headline
A stunned Bill Shorten and Jason Clare last night with half page picture of Shorten and Clare.
All coming from a publication whose owners were embroiled in this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
The effect of the phone hacking scandal originating with the News of the World also raised wider questions about the ethics employed by companies under Murdoch's ownership, as well as the effects the scandal will have on the ethics employed specifically by print journalists and to some extent the wider world of journalism.
Murdoch had previously been criticised for building a media empire that lacked any ethical base and replacing responsible journalism with "gossip, sensationalism, and manufactured controversy.
Rupert Murdoch admitted that a cover-up had taken place within the News of the World to hide the scope of the phone hacking. On 1 May 2012, a parliamentary select committee report concluded that Murdoch "exhibited wilful blindness to what was going on in his companies and publications," and stated that he was "not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company
On 3 July 2013, Channel 4 News broadcast a secret tape in which Murdoch dismissively claims that investigators were "totally incompetent" and acted over "next to nothing", and excuses his papers' actions as "part of the culture of Fleet Street.
In July 2011 the Ethical Investment Advisory Group (EIAG) of the Church of England, England's Established church, issued a statement stating that "The behaviour of the News of the World has been utterly reprehensible and unethical. In August 2012 the EIAG further announced that it had no confidence in News Corporation's stated intention of returning to ethical practices, and that as a result all Church of England organisations would cease investment in News Corporation.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/a
This is something at least.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/
This is something at least.
"We will support whatever the government of the day's policy is in relation to the NBN," Telstra chief executive Andy Penn told reporters on Thursday.
Something very concerning.
So if it is a crap Policy (from either sides of Government), that is not in the interest of the National, or is doomed to failure or a massive blow out in time or costs or quality or fitness for purpose, how is Telstra going to show some Corporate leadership?
If the government's Policy of the day is to increase Corporate Tax rates to 50%, will Telstra just say "We will support whatever the government of the day's policy is in relation to levels of Corporate Tax"?
Why the appeasement for NBN policy?
What about same sex marriage and Telstra?
Apparently Delimiter and the Australian are named in the warrant...they'll barely get a sideways glance I'd wager.
Good.. might actually lead to lnp figure
The undeniable facts are that conroy' s office and a staffer' s home for Jason Clare were raided.
How on earth would the LNP be linked when it's all on Labor that seemed to have illegally gotten hold of sensitive documents.
Stick to the facts and the facts we know is that the Labor party premises were raised.
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Stick to the facts and the facts we know is that the Labor party premises were raised.
ROFLMAO.
Stick the facts � Thanks to this the facts (the real facts) will now be in the public domain.
The cost blow out, the time frames etc.
Why did the AFP chase this up and not the leaking of the defence white paper?
Are you saying the fact that this was leaked to news corp isn't strange � REALLY?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Stick to the facts and the facts we know ....
I just don't know what to say to that comment from you GMT ..... I'm just gobsmacked.
Well I'm not really actually. I've got to confess I'm telling a little white lie.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
it's all on Labor that seemed to have illegally gotten hold of sensitive documents.
Which is about the only type of NBN disclosure we have seen since 2013...
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
I am very happy that whoever leaked did so...it is important to know just how huge Turnbull's whoppers are becoming.
whoever leaked did so...it is important to know just how huge Turnbull's whoppers are becoming.
Would you be very happy if prison terms are handed to whom ever leaked and spread the documents?
Which is about the only type of NBN disclosure we have seen since 2013...
UM plenty of disclosure, rollout statistics, corporate plans etc
So looks like the Libs are going to be embarrassed by the leaks. Excellent � nice to see the Libs dirty tactics being used on themselves
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
Spoken like a good little party member.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents
Ever heard of whistle blowers and public interest?
When a document exposes incompetence of a government management of a government owned company, don't you think it is really important that voters been informed about it. Or do you prefer governments be able to cover up their incompetence, especially when alot of public money is involved?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
ROFLMAO � as if!
I guess you would say the same thing if an ex pm leaked a defence white paper.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Would you be very happy if prison terms are handed to whom ever leaked and spread the documents?
I would be very happy if those prison terms resulted in a rework of our horrendous whistleblower protection laws (or lack thereof).
And as you well know those leaked documents weren't sensitive, and more importantly they were very much in the public interest. Which, if we had decent whistleblower protection laws, would automatically absolve the leakers of any wrongdoing.
Also:
It would constitute the misuse of national security laws to clamp down on a public discussion that had caused political embarrassment. And it would not be the first time.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/fede
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook
The plot thickens...
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The undeniable facts are that conroy' s office and a staffer' s home for Jason Clare were raided.
How on earth would the LNP be linked when it's all on Labor that seemed to have illegally gotten hold of sensitive documents.
Stick to the facts and the facts we know is that the Labor party premises were raised.
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
The NBN Co is an arm of government. Its board was appointed by the government. Its actions � because of the timing are political. Their actions and decisions can and will hurt the government.
Labor has claimed parliamentary privilege on these documents. There is no reason for them to delete the documents. No doubt � they show significant miss-truths told to the Senate Committee on the NBN. We know of many of them already. Morrow himself claimed that many of the documents weren't of NBN origin � further reason not to delete them.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes..
The undeniable facts are that conroy' s office and a staffer' s home for Jason Clare were raided.
Wonder if they found "the napkin" in search of a better Coalition NBN strategy?
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
Thanks for that Malsplain.
I wonder if the situation were reversed whether you'd say the same thing? Don't answer ... the question is rhetorical ... I know what you'd answer ... and I also know what would really happen.
Source Please
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
I'd prefer not to jump off a cliff to find out what's at the end.
We are already well over the cliff with the MTM.
But Labor could save us all the trouble and tell us how what they're going to do with the NBN.
Labor will reveal it when its ready, whats the rush?
How about call the AFP for a second raid to get their hands on sensitive info?
Don't answer ... the question is rhetorical ... I know what you'd answer
Its also not so much rhetorical as demonstrable, when cherry picked phrases from the McKinsey implementation study that pointed out certain risks, Raoul and his ilk were wetting their pants over it.
I'd prefer not to jump off a cliff to find out what's at the end.
So you'd prefer to be steered off a cliff, knowing there's a pile of broken glass and crap at the bottom?
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
Missed what he was asking. Well done.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Would you be very happy if prison terms are handed to whom ever leaked and spread the documents?
Now how many times have prison terms been handed down because someone has breached CiC agreements?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Stick to the facts
I was surprised to see you telling others to stick to the facts.
If Labor were to switch back to a full fibre plan that would mean a mid range cost of $80 billion. It would mean completion in 2026. That's not a very good alternative.
Compared to delivering a half baked NBN that will take longer to deliver, cost more and be slower, only after all that has been done, it will have to be replaced with FTTP anyway? Now how much will that cost?
If Labor were to switch back to a full fibre plan that would mean a mid range cost of $80 billion. It would mean completion in 2026
Only under the current management. Replace them with competent operators and an appropriate SoE and watch FttP rollout ramp up and realise the costs saving that current management are incapable of delivering.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I have yet to hear from the AFP what had caused them to seek search warrants
I heard from news based sources that they were looking for NBN staffers email addresses to identify the leakers.
Probable Cause that a crime may have been committed, and that crime being something within the AFP jurisdiction.
Which leaking this information is. Sadly we don't have a sufficient level of whistleblower protection to cover these kinds of leaks
It would mean completion in 2026
Only if they stopped for a few years...Even at the current FTTP rollout rate, they would complete FTTP by 2021-2023.
http://www.abc.net
All of the data has been documented at the bottom (unlike the NBN Co report).
If Labor were to switch back to a full fibre plan that would mean a mid range cost of $80 billion. It would mean completion in 2026.
Perhaps with decent management not intent on reverse engineering costs to substantiate the position of their feeder?
Other counties can deploy FTTP at a far lower cost than this crew
What is the LNP time estimate to get to the same endpoint?
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I have yet to hear from the AFP what had caused them to seek search warrants.
Journalists' metadata?
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
Which has been proven to be wrong � just like Malcolm's promises in 2013
What #NBN approach is better value for $$$ ??? FTTN FTTP
A one question survey:
https://twitter.com/ValueMgmt/status/732832466650726404
or the longer version:
What is really important to you about FTTP FTTN? Compare their value for $$$?
A Valuing FTTN & FTTP; NBN Australia 2016 Survey
Rate #NBN #FTTN #FTTP on #value for money� on a number of dimensions...
... or add your own dimensions...
Journalists' metadata?
Warrants to that effect would be served on service providers (phone and/or internet) not on political offices and staffers.
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
Quoting works of fiction still eh kingy, tut tut.
I guess the alp will have to release their policy sooner than later now.
I guess the alp will have to release their policy sooner than later now.
Not necessarily. The raids have given the ALP the ability, from now on, to play the NBN as an issue with no need to bring out a policy; the ALP can release an NBN policy at its leisure.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
It may not have a choice.
Although the afp should now have to investigate non co for stealing "sensitive information" going by the lnp supporters here.
Although the afp should now have to investigate non co for stealing "sensitive information" going by the lnp supporters here.
Seeing they "took photos of 34 or 35 documents" seems like they arn't sure just how many photos were taken so maybe the AFP along with a representative from Conroy's Office acting as a "special constable" should head over to NBN and go through everything they have to make sure there are no more photos.....
https://twitter.com/DavidSharaz?ref_src=twsrc
Someone with better eyesight might be able to read that.
Someone with better eyesight might be able to read that.
This better?
https://pbs.twimg.com
This better?
mmmm.
"images contained on the phone"
Maybe they also need to request that images automatically backed up to the cloud be deleted as well.
All they would have needed to do was disable auto delete "cloud backup" on the phone and they would still have a cloud copy of those images
Maybe they also need to request that images automatically backed up to the cloud be deleted as we
They did.
Conroys legal team have also asked who authorised the taking of such images.
They did.
Conroys legal team have also asked who authorised the taking of such images.
good.
I hope Sen Conroy or his legal team have a pair or 2 of winklepickers to wear at the appropriate time
Is it just me that lol'd at "downloaded onto a USB". :)
Well well well fellow forumites who appreciate a proper NBN, what a wonderful day for free kicks Labor has received!!
Mr Turnbull is not going to come out of this well at all.
Labor will thank the NBN staffer for taking those illicit pics!
just me that lol'd
I cringe every time I hear someone call a thumb drive a "USB", USB is the connector, not the device.
free kicks Labor has received!!
Seems almost like an own goal by Mr S.
Seems almost like an own goal by Mr S.
It will highlight Turnbull's incompetence. There is only so much mileage one get from charisma & eloquent speaking before actual substance is put under the blowtorch
I hope Sen Conroy or his legal team have a pair or 2 of winklepickers to wear at the appropriate time
a �factional bovver boy�
Me thinks the current opposition Minister for Defence is going to defend himself ably, show them what happens when you bovver him like this, and go kick some arse. Go Stephen.
Does he have a twitter?
Appears not. But he's being talked about on Twitter quite a bit today.
https://twitter.com/search?q=lee-steere&src=typd
#NBNGATE is trending on Twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/nbngate
#NBNGATE is trending on Twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/nbngate
There are some pearlers on that Twitter page.
Anyway s/he states:
Status quo for NBN Co to hide things isn't it Kingforce? Lets hope the person is charged for illegally obtaining and disseminating documents they had no right to collect. There needs to be lots of questions asked of the government, NBN Co and the AFP about what has happened here right?
Lets hope the person is charged for illegally obtaining and disseminating documents they had no right to collect.
I don't know that it is illegal. If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
So your not concerned about illegal dissemination of alp policy documents or the damage that may be done?
So your not concerned about illegal dissemination of alp policy documents or the damage that may be done?
Who told you that it was ALP policy documents and why do you believe them?
Senior Labor sources have confirmed to BuzzFeed News they suspect one of the documents photographed by the NBN staffer was the party's yet to be released NBN policy.
Labor fears the policy has been leaked to the Liberal Party, and may be given to the media before Bill Shorten gets a chance to announce it during the election campaign.
How can the LCP release it to the media without admitting that they obtained it from the raided documents?
Particularly so IF Labor (now) has the originals in a very secure place with limited access to other 'lesser' Labor-ites.
Senior Labor sources
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Does it matter if they do or not?
Does it matter if they do or not?
That was my thought too. It was a bit of a cheap/petty shot. Time people get real here.
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Says the guy using an alias on Whirlpool....
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
Nothing can stop NBNCo suffering commercial damages except an ALP election victory.
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
You quoted an anonymous person in another thread (who subsequently admitted/claimed they hadn't seen the misbehaving special constable for several years) as an authority on what happened or didn't happen during the raid.
then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
The damage has already been done.... that's what the original leaked documents showed, the complete lies, deceit and coverup from the LNP. The commercial damage from the MTM is there, and the public's right to know about it is what has been ignored in all of this. But it appears that if you make Turnbull look incompetent you can expect a visit from the AFP. There's nothing right about that.
*I know that wasn't your quote, but I quoted it from your response.
Karina Keisler, the Executive General Manager of Corporate Affairs at NBN Co, tweeted on Friday the staff was just following the instructions of the AFP.
There is no way that the AFP said to this guy, "Make sure you pass those pics onto your bosses and the Liberal Party."
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Lets see your name for the record.
I don't know that it is illegal.
Seriously?? This person is a representative of the entity that called the AFP to investigate leaks that NBN Co claimed are theft of its IP. This person has photographed documents they had no right nor responsibility to photograph, and has dissemenated them to other sources. How is this any less illegal than the "illegal" behaviour that NBN called the AFP about? Its worse given these documents are under parliamentary privilege and are said to be unrelated to NBN Co leaks. Its stealing � plain and simple.
In another thread, you are bleating on about leaks damaging NBN Co and favouring third parties, but when its potentially Labors NBN policy that has been leaked, you dont have a problem with the benefit that can be derived by third parties of access to such documents prior to their release. Hypocritical much?
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Typical � deflection from the real issue.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
There is no way that the AFP said to this guy, "Make sure you pass those pics onto your bosses and the Liberal Party."
or said
"Hey mate, get your phone out and photograph anything you want, and you dont need to let us know what you took pics of � go nuts"
How can the LCP release it to the media without admitting that they obtained it from the raided documents?
Particularly so IF Labor (now) has the originals in a very secure place with limited access to other 'lesser' Labor-ites.
They do not have to release it. What it gives them is the opportunity to NOT appear flatfooted.
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
How come? Was it just CiC for the "leaker"?
Also, what commercial damage would be suffered if the documents were made public? Is there some hidden entity that NBNCo are courting to hop in with????
Is there some hidden entity that NBNCo are courting to hop in with????
not hidden, just CiC
*e*s*r*
is the best guess
*p*u* or *P* at a long shot
You wanted quotes from alp for "do it once, do it right, do it with fibre" , and your still not happy..
Nah only happy when billions of $$$ squandered on a half arsed unreliable internet for the masses.
They couldn't give a toss about progress and the ever growing digital economy.
Will you two just find a room!
Meanwhile, in reality � this now has legs and is not only getting people talking about the MTM, it's also highlighting the mismanagement under Malcolm.
How can someone be trusted to run the country if they can't even manage 1 infrastructure project right?
Repeat after me � "It's all Labor's fault" x 10,000.
I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
But not by alp , which you are insinuating.. they were stolen by nbn staffers ..
They were taken without anybody's permission
They were COPIED without anyone's permission...there is a HUGE difference.
Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest
What sort of proof would you accept? I think you mean to ask in what way this information dissemination to the public about their investment will financially injure NBN Co...
But not by alp , which you are insinuating.. they were stolen by nbn staffers ..
their is no proof that they were stolen they may have been duplicated which is not theft.
Only a court can deem anything stolen.
Up until then "allegedly stolen" should be used by everyone including Malcolm Turnbull QC MP, who should damn well know due process
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
Now how is it that you have left the LNP Govt out of that list... they have lots of questions to ask particularly as to why they are not do their job as Taxpayer representatives and mismanaging their portfolios or not even doing anything at all. The Minister responsible for AFP (who is that actually?) has many questions to answer about the raid itself � incompetence ?... illegalities of taking and distribution of photos?...breaches of parliamentary privilege?....
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
NO!! if your LNP mates were doing their job they should be furious and investigating, on behalf of taxpayers and NBN Co what the hell happened and asking why they were not told � total incompetence of Fifield and Brandis who locked into arse protection mode .... or deception mode
Labor should not have publicly questioned the AFP's timing
You must be is such a state of shock and fear you've slipped into lala fantasy land or alternatively stop that tranquilising medication � you are on another planet....
I'm still waiting on Jason Clare's plan to deliver better broadband quicker and at an affordable price.
I'll bet you are!! That's why the raid was undertaken wasn't it? � Patience Kingy ...your time will come
...thanks for revealing your true alliance. No wonder we cannot get sense in. Its going to be like this the whole election campaign and beyond, won't it?
When I say "us" I'm talking about the people of Australia.
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost. I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter.
When I say "us" I'm talking about the people of Australia.
Hah, as if you speak for me. How dare you think I will ally myself with any party.
I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter.
You're saying that Turnbull's lies are more plausible than an unannounced policy from the ALP?
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest
Were they stolen/taken?
Show me where it says that.
They were leaked � by nbn staff!
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
Do I need to repeat it a couple more times?
The LNP have no track record on this!
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
No, no, no .... the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition are doing a spectacular job all by themselves.
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
"IT'S ALL LABOR'S FAULT".
It's like a mantra for LNP supporters isn't it Kingee. Does your wife complain when you continuously mumble that in your sleep?
Very vague and extremely cynical I would say GMZ. Labor should not treat us as if we don't know anything.
Ahhh the mutual backslapping.
We know that Turnbull et al have been keeping the truth of their MTM failures from the public.
I agree Queeg this is just disgraceful behaviour by the LNP Government.
Labor's suggestions that the AFP are goons acting for the Liberal party are loopy
Ohh Kingee can you please find the quote for this? Nahh didn't think so. Still making stuff up.
Who knows? But it's very petulant behaviour from Labor.
Maybe that's the reason why the search took so long because Labor staffers kept dragging their feet.
Please see previous comment of "IT'S ALL LABOR'S FAULT".
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
Which is all the sort of information that Quigley and NBNCo routinely put up on the NBNCo website. But Turnbull, Fifield and Morrow have to hide the truth about the clusterf^*k they have created. How about some transparency Kingee ... true transparency and there would have been no need for any leaks.
How many times does the AFP commissioner have to say that the AFP was responsible for the timing of the raids?
There are really only 2 possibilities...
1. The AFP Commissioner is inept enough to schedule this for the middle of an election on his own (I hope that isn't true)
2. There is some political intimidation involved
NBN Co says that he fully complied with AFP direction.
He illegally photographed and then forwarded PP docs to the NBNCo.
Either AFP is incompetent and gave him wrong instructions or he committed an offence.
Which one is it?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It's very common for the AFP to bring in assistance
No probs with that but it is very apparent the assistant was either running the show or not supervised � neither position is tenable.
this very serious matter that has embroiled the ALP who are now trying to hide parliament priveldge.
ALP is not hiding anything...Smart enough to claim PP to prevent irresponsible actions perhaps...the NBN docs are all in public domain since December (?) what's the problem...are there other more damning docs (to NBN Co and LNP govt that is) at hand maybe?
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
I'd check the facts on that Kingy...there are particular reqs with PP sealed docs I believe..... your assumption is not correct.
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
And when Labor requested the information 2 months ago from Government, it should have been given instead of waiting until the day of the election calling...
I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter
Interesting...yet when Turnbull told bald-faced lies prior to the last election, and every techo in the country called them out for the lies they were, the Australian Voter was easily fooled. So you think that by telling the truth, the ALP are on the wrong track?
It's disgraceful that the LNP put their operative in and then got him to take pictures as part of an AFP raid � this is the level of discussion we now have in this thread.
Would the 2 LNP supporters please stop posting opinions as facts � it isn't fooling anyone and is getting tiring.
1. The AFP Commissioner is inept enough to schedule this for the middle of an election on his own (I hope that isn't true)
The sealed documents won't speed the investigation...will they...
2. There is some political intimidation involved
The raids involved offices of the Opposition yet the MSM were left alone...
As Turnbull said that's just shameful.
As with everything else, and particularly NBN, those that know him well know to read the opposite of what he says....common for snake oil salesmen types
I can pretty much guarantee
Do you have a scoop on the proceeds from the raid Kingy eh? eh? Copies of illegal photos?
Keep waiting KIngy , you will find out when you are told...
Which one is it?
In a statement, the AFP said it believed it had acted appropriately and in accordance with the law in raids, saying the NBN staff were assisting with document verficiation.
"Taking photos was part of this verification process," the statement said.
"These employees were under the direction and supervision of AFP officers at all times during the search warrant."
http://www.abc.ne
Given the documents were under parliamentary privilege, I'd say that shows the AFP is incompetent.
Maybe that MTMCo/LNP operative fancied himself as comparable to a Watergate plumber in stealing opposition material.
It seems to me he deserves the same as what the Watergate plumbers got.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
This is not true, I don't know how many times I need to post the AFP policy on this but the policy is for them to be sealed in audit bags and delivered to the clerk of the senate, procedure then gives a cooling of period for the MP or senator to withdraw their claim of privilege. If they indicate that they wish to pursue the claim of parliamentary privilege it is then handled by parliamentary court or the given house that member belongs to, to rule whether parliamentary privilege applies. If the ruling is that it does, the AFP don't get the documents, end of question. If they could just search through the documents potentially compromising investigations by senate committees, there would be absolutely no point in the procedure even existing.
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
The AFP have damaged themselves (again). They don't need anyone else to help them.
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
The commentary is a direct result of the AFP bungle, NBN playing politics, and the Libs trying desperately to create a scandal to try and shift focus away from their failing in the polls. Labor are supposed to be the victims, but the Libs couldn't even manage to get that right. More egg on face for Turnbull and Co.
Normally this type of social media chatter wouldn't matter, but it's different this time because we're in the middle of an election.
If the media wasn't tipped off, and if the AFP hadn't done some dodgy stuff, then it wouldn't have had the oxygen it has received. There is plenty here to question. The fact that you are ok with what has happened speaks volumes.
Labor should not have publicly questioned the AFP's timing of the raids or publicly demanded that documents be destroyed. That's very poor behaviour on Labor's part. Labor has nothing to do with it. The raids should never have happened. There have been much more serious leaks happen elsewhere with no AFP involvement. This is just another example for the Libs desperately trying to shut down public debate and silence the media and it blew up in the Libs face.
What's even more frustrating is that this does nothing for the NBN debate
Correct. Shutting down channels that provide real information about the MTM rollout and how badly it is going cant be any good for the debate. Debate cannot be had when facts are unavailable and that is exactly where Turnbull and Co is trying to get to . Its increasingly obvious that the Libs and NBN Co are seriously scared of the truth getting out. Best thing that can happen is for Labor to get in, show the reality of how badly the MTM is going and what a daft idea it was and then try and sort it all out. Wouldn't like to be in Clares shoes having that task!
I'm still waiting on Jason Clare's plan to deliver better broadband quicker and at an affordable price. I am surprised you weren't on the top of the list to receive the illegal photos the NBN Co staffer took that are purported to contain some of that detail.
Once again � lets blame the ALP � as always!
I laughed at this one. The straw clutching is reaching new levels. No one can seriously believe the raids were Labor's fault. It makes absolutely no sense. There is a word starting with t that best explains those sort of posts.
Yes, the timing of the AFP raids is shameful as is the conduct of the raids.
as is Turnbull's shameful lack of leadership, honesty and integrity not only with NBN but across the board... Turnbull has forgotten he is the Prime Minister of the people of this country and they expect so much more of those qualities from someone holding that office....
Having the job of PM is so very different from doing it properly... its more than ego self massaging, it is the honour and privilege of public service...you know the words every person that gets to be put in the role of PM says the day they get it at the TV event broadcast to the whole country.
If one checks the polls Turnbull's trajectory is heading down rapidly now for this very reason.
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
LOL, your posts seem very desperate. Its obvious by now your agenda.
The documents were leaked from within NBNCo.
There was no way Conroy could have got them, unless they were given to him anonymously.
You agree with everything Turnbull says, doesn't mean his right.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It's very common for the AFP to bring in assistance from federal agencies such as the ATO or nbn in this case to investigate this very serious matter that has embroiled the ALP who are now trying to hide parliament priveldge.
You and Kingforce don't even seem to understand what the raid is about. NBN Co staff have allegedly done the wrong things by leaking documents. The AFP have ballsed up the investigation. Labor has had nothing to do with the leak or the AFP's farcical handling of the issue.
Once police enter the premises they can search anything they want even what the ALP claim to be sealed documents, is the ALP hiding something?
Demonstrating your lack of understanding again Raoul. The AFP have been caught out not doing their job properly. Pretty simple.
Questions for you, who allowed the NBN Co staffer to take pictures and send them to whoever they wanted? Was that allowed under the warrant? Was that allowed under AFP document collection procedures? Who tipped off the media so they were there before the AFP even arrived? Why does parliamentary privilege not apply to documents in a senators office?
I dare Jason Clare and all of the Labor party to use that as a slogan at the election!
As if they would take any notice of anything you say Kingy.....really...your delusion to self importance is ......just is...
Turnbull said that documents were stolen from NBN Co
So if that is the case why have two NBN employees been stood down....?
Define stolen please...
Given the documents were under parliamentary privilege, I'd say that shows the AFP is incompetent.
As per their own admission.
But this sorry LNP/AFP/NBNCo mess doesn't end there...:
Opposition Senate leader Penny Wong said she wanted an explanation from government-owned NBN Co about who saw the photos before their destruction.
We know that those photos were disseminated, those photos were sent at least to NBN, but we don't know who they were sent to. The Government should make clear who they were sent to," she said.
"The Government should tell Australians who got the photos and the Government should make clear they've been destroyed."
Mark Dreyfus, the guy who wants to be Attorney General, went around initially questioning the timing of the AFP raids.
Various media outlets were named in the warrant. Why were only Labor offices and Labor staff homes searched? Who tipped off the press so they could be there before the AFP arrived? Why haven't the AFP been called to investigate other more important leaks to do with national security etc, but they get called on Turnbulls pet project hat is proving nothing but an embarrassment for him?
People are right to ask questions about timing and due process. You would be screaming bloody murder if it were the other way around and it had been Labor who had been seen to initiate the raid.
Still waiting on Labor's NBN plan by the way.
Isn't it telling that despite all the indignation from Labor that they still have no idea how to improve the MTM?
These 2 statements prove how desperate the Liberal supporters are to beat up an argument. First sentence you claim to not know what Labor is going to do. Very next sentence you claim to know that they cant improve the MTM. You cant have it both ways.
How many times does the AFP commissioner have to say that the AFP was responsible for the timing of the raids?
Were they responsible for ensuring the media was there to make sure it made the news?
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
LOL, Turnbull is a Lawyer. To say something like that shows how sad he is.
The documents were leaked within NBNco and given to the ALP. To turn around and say they were stolen? If he really is a lawyer, his a pretty shit one. Try putting that through the courts.
The desperation from MT and the LNP is really showing. Bring on the implosion.
The AFP should be allowed to do their job.
Who stopped them doing their job? Based on the media coverage, (who tipped off the media again?), it looked like they went in and did their job. Its concerning that you aren't worried about how badly they did their job and how poorly they control documents they are supposed to be collecting.
Labor's suggestions that the AFP are goons acting for the Liberal party are loopy.
Labors suggestions are that NBN co were ordered to call them in by the Libs. That has a lot of credence, given the timing and how things have played out.
Also, even Sky news has ran a story with a headline that concedes that Mr. S. may face charges.
And rightly so. The AFP handling of this raid has been appalling and the NBN Co staffer knew that he shouldn't be taking pictures and sending them off to other NBN staffers. Its simple common sense. There needs to be an investigation into the whole mess and charges laid for theft of documents, and illegally disseminating documents, just as a start.
Also, even Sky news has ran a story with a headline that concedes that Mr. S. may face charges.
Been trying to find that, but nothing yet.
The desperation from MT and the LNP is really showing.
Other than sheer spite, I can't see a reason for the LNP to orchestrate something like this. I mean, it's obvious that they have, but desperation? I'm not sold. They've achieved their goal; we're not getting FTTP for at least another generation, thus extending the monopoly on all forms of Australian media and communication of the LNP's donors. I see this as nothing more than a final "screw you, we won" from the LNP, rather than a last-ditch effort to stop Labor from rolling out an FTTP NBN. That dream is dead for the next 25 years. The best we can hope for now is a mix of FTTdp and DOCSIS 3.0.
Would the 2 LNP supporters please stop posting opinions as facts ...
Is there a term commonly used on the internet to describe this sort of behaviour?
NBN raids: how independent are the federal police? � Behind the Lines podcast with Kristina Keneally
http://www.theguar
Been trying to find that, but nothing yet.
search with nbn staffer ;) theres 2 copies of the article, 1 deleted and 1 live
ELECTION LIVE: NBN staffer may face jail
Yep thanks
Http://news/top-stories/2016
Is there a term commonly used on the internet to describe this sort of behaviour?
Astroturfers
404
That link wasn't quite right, but found the story is here:
What do the lnp supporters think of that?
The lnp operative might get jail
Mod note
We need to take the AFP raids discussion to the relevant thread! /forum-replies.cfm?t=2532259
That dream is dead for the next 25 years.
unless enough people, like you, vote Labor of course
Other than sheer spite, I can't see a reason for the LNP to orchestrate something like this. I mean, it's obvious that they have, but desperation? I'm not sold. They've achieved their goal; we're not getting FTTP for at least another generation, thus extending the monopoly on all forms of Australian media and communication of the LNP's donors. I see this as nothing more than a final "screw you, we won" from the LNP, rather than a last-ditch effort to stop Labor from rolling out an FTTP NBN. That dream is dead for the next 25 years. The best we can hope for now is a mix of FTTdp and DOCSIS 3.0.
Whether we get FTTP or not is moot.
They don't want anything MTM related exposed prior to the election. Its pretty obvious for the last 3 years, no media coverage. The desperation stems from trying to keep a lid on things despite the heavy handed tactics going via the AFP.
It must be really bad the whole MTM project, from financials down to rollout management.
The lnp operative might get jail
yes just another silly deluded low level lib supporter that takes the fall for the big wigs.
It must be really bad the whole MTM project, from financials down to rollout management.
There was no conceivable scenario in which it would be anything but a total shambles. It's 2016 (and a half), let's take a look at how the Coalition's promise of "Cheaper, faster, better" is turning out...
Cheaper
Costs have blown out as the amount of copper that would need replacing was severely underestimated, as well as the ever-increasing cost of maintaining a positively ancient copper network. Additionally, advances in FTTP now price it cheaper per premises than FTTN, negating the initial touted savings made by switching in the first place.
Faster (in both rollout and speed)
Rollout: Rollout wise, it's 2016 and vast swathes of the country still haven't got access to "at least 25Mbps".
Speed: Speed wise, the few suburbs that DO have FTTN are reporting only marginal increases in speeds due to necessary copper repair work not being undertaken, a lack of backhaul, or just the plain under-provisioning of nodes.
Better (both "better than what we have now" and "better than the other mob")
Better than what we have now: See Faster.
Better than the other mob: This doesn't even need explaining. 93% FTTP/7% wireless is, and always was, the superior option.
Again, I fail to see how the MTM could have been better for this country in any way, shape or form. As with many infrastructure plans in this country, it was merely a battle of ideologies and a hate for "the other mob" coming to town with the better plan first.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Once police enter the premises they can search anything they want even what the ALP claim to be sealed documents, is the ALP hiding something?
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
You are full of it, the agency must comply with the terms and conditions of the warrant. They can not step outside that, no matter what load of rubbish you try to trot out to support your "friends".
I can pretty much guarantee that they won't return to a full fibre rollout.
No you can't.
...moved to other thread
No you can't.
Kingy's got a copy of ALP docs if he is so sure.... send the AFP out eh?
The challenge for Labor may well be to keep the NBN concept in govt control and stop it being handed over to Telstra. The real problem with what Turnbull has done is effectively corner NBN Co into a high risk position dependent on Telstra to survive. So many contracts for Greenfields, FTTN and HFC builds are via Telstra, HFC future is controlled by Telstra ...and Telstra have a $22B+ (?) facility waiting in the wings.
A less than successful build of FTTN (with associated bad publicity) not Telstra's fault of course, and unsatisfied customers supports the argument for NBN Co to be handed off, sold off, whatever. Telstra can make sure that happens with the level of control it has over NBN Co's success or failure.
Labor would have a huge challenge to stop that, there is nothing more sure that NBN Co will go if LNP remain in power and continue to hand it off by stealth.
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
and all the internal "proof" from nbn� documents may now be not able to be used till after the senate sits after the election
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
Finding whistle blowers was just a bonus
If the Libs are using section 70 of the crimes act for that, then we have skipped the "banana republic" and have descended into the realms of despots
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
The uphill battle isnt the LNP, as Christopher Pyne showed, they have no idea.
The uphill battle is the mainstream media. No matter what the Labor party comes out with, News Limited will attack it with full force.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Wrong on all counts.
No matter what the Labor party comes out with, News Limited will attack it with full force.
Labor don't need to make any NBN statements at all, News in particular invent stuff themselves even with anonymous 'experts' sometimes... and these often sound like they come straight off the LNP song sheet...or is it vice versa?
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
Finding whistle blowers was just a bonus
If the Libs are using section 70 of the crimes act for that, then we have skipped the "banana republic" and have descended into the realms of despots
I'm sure the ALP have backups of the work they have been working on. I just hope they can move on and expose it in time prior to the election.
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
bingo sir. occams razor applies here.
I'm sure the ALP have backups of the work they have been working on. I just hope they can move on and expose it in time prior to the election.
Of course they would � but not own up to it. Rewording and approximation of figures rather than direct quotes and who can prove a relationship back to original docs? There are ways around it..
Can just hear the likes of Turnbull, Cormann and Morrison goading and demanding the source of the NBN figures quoted by Labor and deriding no source quoted.... no-one wins particularly you and I nor the public in general
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims
If this was the primary aim, or one of several aims, it clearly demonstrates that the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
If so, then so much for their claim that broadband is not a significant issue this election. They wouldn't put themselves in such a vulnerable position if they didn't think it worth it. Therefore Labor should seize their advantage and run with it as long and as hard as they can.
Did anyone see Pyne's performance on Q&A last night when asked about the NBN? He was queried on the delays and cost blowouts that switching to the MTM has created. He gave the form response of "cheaper, faster, better" and the whole audience just laughed in his face. Albanese looked like he was about to crack up himself. I know that Q&A audiences usually aren't really that representative of the Australian public at large due to the mostly Labor/Greens voting audience, however, I think last night demonstrated that the jig really is up for the LNP. The public are starting to see through their crap and are having none of it. Even in my own personal experience, loyal LNP voters are beginning to understand that they were essentially scammed by Abbott and Turnbull in regards to the NBN. I've had to explain to a few people that they won't be getting any sort of increase in speeds or reliability any time soon. These people, myself included, live in the HFC footprint but are unable to be provisioned with an HFC service. I'm stuck with 6Mbps down/1Mbps up with a family of four, one of whom telecommutes. Usually they come out of the conversation feeling betrayed and outraged. Hopefully it's enough to change their votes.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
We must capitalise on this and get the NBN at the forefront of this election. Publicly decry the MTM and expose the LNP for the charlatans they are. Even if a handful people listen, it'll make a difference.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Clearly demonstrates that the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
Certainly is
so much for their claim that broadband is not a significant issue this election
Pyne's performance on Q&A last night
He gave the form response of "cheaper, faster, better" and the whole audience just laughed in his face
You missed the comment that Australia doesn't need really fast broadband � and he's innovation minister???? BIG fail there!! Problem is that conservative politics actually believes that and most of their Business brothers, sisters and cousins tell them that as well. They fear spending money to upgrade and fail to recognise the competitive edge they can get ie. don't see it as an investment....yet they don't flich the cost has gone from Labor's $43B to $56B+ for LNPs version --how come?. If they themselves don't understand it then they won't let anyone else move ahead with it.
loyal LNP voters are beginning to understand that they were essentially scammed by Abbott and Turnbull in regards to the NBN
All posts demonstrate why the Raid was undertaken � shut down any info that may not be favorable to current nbn regime and/or LNP govt...and maybe pick up Labor's NBN Plan in the process
Did anyone see Pyne's performance on Q&A last night
Yes, and also Albos. Both of them haven't a damn clue about the point of the NBN. The whole segment was an embarrassment.
Anything Labor comes out with will be better than the current MTM Fraudband.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Oh definitely :)
The MTM is the biggest vulnerability that the LNP have. I don't know what Labor is waiting for. They should be hammering this for all it's worth, just like Turnbull did against them before the last election. There are so many angles just begging to be used.
They do a little but nothing like as much as they could. If Albanese and Shorten don't even understand the point of universal fibre, and various talking heads when interviewed let points go through to the catcher instead of rebutting them, they are leaving their greatest tactical weapon behind.
The funny thing we would have been better off if both parties did nothing and if they never thought of the NBN. Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices. Other countries around the world have better broadband then us because the government kept there noses out. Most other Countires that have tired to introduce a NBN type have also fallen behind as it removed all of the little and large carriers wanting to build there own networks. Back in 2008 there was a lot of telecom type project canceled because the NBN was coming but never turned up. Labor or lib they both f-Ickes it up
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
This has been shown to be wrong. Telstra were not doing anything. The telecommunications policy had been botched for ten to 15 years before the NBN came on the table. Market forces would have left Australia in a continuing telecommunications black hole. Unfortunately MTM will not lift us out of the black hole.
. Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices
Telstra has been holding the pie for too long they put profits before progress, they let the copper and hfc network deteriorate.
We had a chance to finally catch up but the LNP put their grotty noses into it and we are back to square one.
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
I think we would all have Telstra ~20gig 4g for $100 a month, and regional could have dial-up. Public utilities should stay public as far as I'm concerned.
The original NBN would have helped pull this country out of the mines and become one of the world leaders in research, tech, education, etc ..... And put everyone (almost) on a level playing field, filling in most of the digital divide.
LNP's MTM has done the exact opposite.
These were the reasons the ALP wanted to create the NBN in the first place.
I don't see how we can even refer to what the LNP are giving us now as a "national broadband network".
I think we would all have Telstra ~20gig 4g for $100 a month, and regional could have dial-up. Public utilities should stay public as far as I'm concerned.
No we wouldn't. Without competition, Telstra's prices would remain unchallenged, and we'd all be paying out the nose.
One of the points of the NBN was to build infrastructure that wasn't controlled by a commercial monopoly.
and we'd all be paying out the nose.
Like we do now (with Telstra) on their network of bandaids and string?
One of the points of the ( original (I'll add that) NBN was to build infrastructure that wasn't controlled by a commercial monopoly.
Totally agree.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Even Albo didn't use that line on Q&A.
He seemed to say there was a Tasmania promise for 2016.. not going to be met
Full rollout complete by 2019.. now 2020
And didn't push back at all when it was said a FTTP rollout would stretch to 2024.
Agree that 'Pyne' doesn't have a clue about the NBN
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