I actually agree with that principle...with caveats. I think that FTTB should have been allowed
I worked on the build phase of 6 to 12 story MDUs, with between 4 and 6 units a floor, though the 70s into the 80s as a Sparky
In most of those the MDF was in the Electrical Meter/Switchroom and there would not be any room to install a FTTB cabinet
We did all the "block cabling".
The phone cables ran up a riser, shared with the power cables for each unit.
There was what was classed as a IDF at the time, but is now called a junction box, on each floor for the units and conduits from this location to phone points in each unit.
In these buildings to install fibre it would not have required any building modification, BUT one floor would have needed its copper removed to give access to pull in the fibre needed. A temporary solution for those residents could have been provided to permit the install of fibre for every one. It would have only required a multiport to be installed in in the riser at each floor
The units that would be much harder were the 2 and 3 story built from the late 40s on, they usually had no "risers" or Switchrooms so here there would again be no room for a FTTB cabinet.
I think one reason nbn� are using FTTN for a lot of units rather than FTTB is the lack of room in the property for the equipment, not so much body corporate issues. It is also these blocks that TPG are ignoring as well.
NBN has the power under the legislation to install without Body Corporate permission if they follow proper process, and as TPG proved in court they can tap straight into "common property power" they do not need to run their own "mains supply"
What they can do is though explain the current situation left by the LNP, stop all new planned fttn from the day they get elected and change those areas to fttdp or fttp
I think that's the best we can hope for honestly, atleast fttdp has an easy upgrade path to fttp if the customer wants to go that route or it ends up getting built on later down the line.
The Labor party cannot afford to leave older Australians behind.
Nor are they.
The benefits of a quick MTM rollout out are obvious
Unfortunately we haven't gotten a quick MTM rollout at all. We've gotten delays and budget blow outs.
Labor should tell us their plans for the NBN.
I agree.
Will Labor's NBN cost $80 billion?
Only according to Turnbull and his dodgy figures.
How long will Labor's NBN take to finish?
Already been covered. 1-3 years longer than FTTN would've. Not a long time in the scheme of things.
These are all questions that need immediate answers from Mr Clare and Mr Shorten.
I can think of a rather large list of questions that need immediate answers from Mr Fifield and Mr Turnbull. But they'll never get answered because that's just not how the LNP do things. FUD and obfuscation all the way.
All we know is that a full NBN will cost about $80 billion.
No, we don't know that at all. We know that's what Turnbull and Co. are claiming, based on a bunch of undisclosed, impossible to verify or replicate figures.
full fibre NBN will be completed in ten years time
Just as incorrect. Please, provide some credible source that verifies this information, or quit peddling LNP lies.
The cost of $80 billion matters
Because it's a made up figure that needs to be explained by the LNP. Until that happens it should be treated as what it is. A blatant lie.
because Labor the liberals need to show that they are economically responsible.
Fixed that for you. You, and the LNP need to answer this question. What's more economically responsible, spending $56b, then spending another $80b (using your figure as we don't have an accurate figure yet) to replace the original $56b, or spending $80b?
Because NBN Co has to find a way to recover that $80 billion cost.
Quit throwing around $80b, as we have no evidence to substantiate that cost! I'm not denying that FTTP will be more expensive than FTTN, but all the facts point to it being vastly superior in every possible metric, at a slightly higher cost and time to roll out. Even if it was $100b, it still makes more sense to spend $100b once, than spend $56b then $100b. That's basic math, ignoring all the other relevant information (such as return/etc.).
The MTM has the highest IRR
I'm sorry, but what? source? links? any evidence whatsoever to support this claim? Pretty sure I know you'll ignore this as every shred of credible evidence points to the opposite.
The Coalition's preparations at the last election was detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
Hahaha, yes it was 'detailed'. "We've got a fully costed, ready to go NBN plan". Detailed indeed.
Clare constantly runs away from the NBN economic debate.
And frankly I can see why he's doing so. Why should the ALP say anything, when what the LNP is saying is far more damning for the LNP?
I'd love to see what the ALP plan is, but up until now they've had no real need to do anything but sit back and watch the LNP FTTN lies come to light and self-destruct.
No, we don't know that at all. We know that's what Turnbull and Co. are claiming, based on a bunch of undisclosed, impossible to verify or replicate figures.
Like when they claimed it would cost $90B but then admitted how their own review estimated it would only be $55.9B so the $90B estimate they were throwing was just "a little higher again from that number".
From $55.9B $90B.... a 61% difference is just "a little higher"? Gee I wish I got paid just "a little higher" than what I do now then.
I wonder if their $80B is also just "a little higher" from the actual estimation.
That may be true but FttP opex costs are not zero.
Also true, and yes okay we should probably look at the overall difference in OPEX.
Any equation that compares differential opex must take both into account. I have seen (but cant be bothered finding them ATM) sources that suggest the opex cost of FttP compared to FttN is ~20%. I am happy to be corrected.
Based on NBN Co numbers it is about 62% of FTTN. However if we want to talk about MtM as a whole then we really need to include HFC in the calculation. Again working backwards from the information that has either leaked or disclosed HFC OPEX is a little over double that of FTTN, I am however willing to compromise on exactly double. Excluding 20% for FTTB and adding in the 4 million premises scheduled for HFC I get $1.69B annually in OPEX, for those same 8 million premises all on FTTP I get $705 million, or about $985 million a year difference in OPEX.
I will absolutely agree though that the straw that breaks the camels back in this situation is the HFC component, however even if all 8 million premises were FTTN the difference would be almost half a billion (~$420m), but this is less an argument for FTTP and more against HFC.
Sorry but I simply don't see this happening. Are you saying the nbnTM revised agreements bring forward payments?
I will admit that I haven't independently verified this claim, but it is something I have heard through somewhat trusted sources.
Like when they claimed it would cost $90B but then admitted how their own review estimated it would only be $55.9B so the $90B estimate they were throwing was just "a little higher again from that number".
Its another one of these cases, there was a news story a few weeks ago that I can't seem to find now where NBN Co admitted that a return to fibre would be in the range of $8-10b more than the current rollout strategy, which puts the top price at $66b, surely $80 billion is only a little bit over ;)
which puts the top price at $66b, surely $80 billion is only a little bit over ;)
And yet Kingy and Co. keep banging on about $80b like it's 1) accurate and 2) set in stone. Gotta love it!
Gotta love it!
The golden part is that they really have not convinced any of us one iota, yet bless their little cotton socks they try.
:0>
yet bless their little cotton socks they try.
They're certainly determined, I'll give them that much.
$80b
I thought it was $90b?! I keep losing track of my billions.. I have Turnbull disease
I thought it was $90b?! I keep losing track of my billions..
Some rubbery figure that's more than FTTN and more than the reality.
I have Turnbull disease
Become a politician, you'll be rolling in your own variable billions soon enough!
return to fibre would be in the range of $8-10b
And worth every dollar.
Detailed analysis of NBN Co�s finances shows FTTP better value than FTTN
"Ferrers� analysis suggests, he wrote, that FTTP ended up being better financial value than FTTN when the NBN company�s operational expenditure and projected revenue figures were examined six and a half years after each technology was deployed.
This fact, he said, came from the fact that FTTP was significantly cheaper to run on an ongoing basis ($90 less per connection per year), but also generated more average revenue (close to $25 per month or $300 per annum per connection).
�This difference totals about $30 per month,� in favour of FTTP, Ferrers wrote. �This is a total net benefit of $390 per household per year for using FTTP over using FTTN.�
Consequently, the analyst wrote, the capital expenditure difference between the two technologies (FTTP costs about $2,300 more per premise to install than FTTN) would be earned back in 76 months � or about six and a third years.
Over the long term, according to the analyst, this would add up to many billions of dollars � for example, $9 billion in total over ten years. �The longer FTTN remains in place, the greater the foregone benefit for not switching to FTTP,� he wrote.
there was a news story a few weeks ago that I can't seem to find now where NBN Co admitted that a return to fibre would be in the range of $8-10b more than the current rollout strategy,
This one?
https://delimiter.com.a
There's not enough there to know exactly what that figure represents. Is it capex or total funding? If it's total funding I would have expected Labor to make much more noise about it. If it's just capex then I think we're still in the $10-15bn ballpark for more total funding. We need more information.
I wonder if Conroy is working on the alp nbn policy?
Maybe we should sack the board and sub it out to the NZ mob.?
where under labor, busted ducts and asbestos was a Telstra problem, its now an NBN problem.
Oddly that is not a material change and nor is ownership of copper and HFC (sunk assets) and maintenance costs � all added to original agreement...but not material change to original Telstra Agreement...hmmmmm
possibly the worst deal ever. Buying a network with no idea as to its condition. Such a bad deal, that remediation costs end up 10 times worse than expected.
Turnbull the 'great' merchant banker and supposedly great negotiator backed himself in a corner big time by committing to the opposite of NBN V1...at all costs...and taxpayers will like carry that can
I think Labor can just keep the agreement as it is.
yep just change the SoE to not preclude FTTP by stealth...
Senate Estimates Morrow quote?
The problem here is that Morrow's numbers simply don't add up � nor I might add "reflect" the deployment costs that are being evidenced in the global rollout of Fibre Optic Networks around the world!
One but has to look at New Zealand where in their more challenging topography they are deploying their Fibre Optic Network for $1600 per premise passed which is now LESS than what is being pissed down the gurgler on the LNP's MTM they continue to persist with!
In fact "Costs" are one of the few area's that that Morrow and the LNP- in fact lead the world in � eg!
Whilst the LNP also win the prize for being the only Government on this planet to have procured obsolete copper from an existing Telco on which to attempt to deliver redundant 20th century FTTN services on to its citizens!
Noting that we are yet to see the "further" blow out costs to their much delayed and already blown to buggery and deployment costs for EOL (End of Life) HFC and FTTN networks � as previously announced in their "now" $56 billion MTM model!
One thing is for sure, and that is Labor's Policy will have to address the disaster that MTM has become not to mention its budgetary and revenue position which are pretty much in freefall compared to Labor's last published Corporate Plan!
We've also seen reports of Fibre ports being stolen, Fibre dropping out of connectors, NTDs falling off the wall
Have we? feel like providing links/sources? as this is the first I've heard of it.
plenty of speeds issues thanks to the CVC charges
All the speed issues I've seen are for FTTN connections. Links/sources for FTTP CVC issues?
Do we? Or did he just want to investigate using it? This is a serious question as I am unsure what the case actually was.
That was what I understood from what I heard/read at the time. I could be wrong.
At the Joint Committee hearing on 20 April 2013 Quigley said ...
There is a percentage that really do have basements and really do have main distribution frames and you can treat them as such. Obviously we looked at the option of running fibre into the basement, putting a small DSLAM into the basement and then using the existing copper. That has certain attractions, obviously, as you do not get into structural separation issues because normally that copper is owned by the building owner. There is no question there is a saving to be had by not having to fibre a multidwelling unit, but there are some other issues that need to be dealt with, such as how you ensure that you get analog voice, which is a tricky issue. What I am really trying to say is that there is not a simple answer. It needs some very careful work because applying analog voice in that situation is nontrivial.
I'm not sure why analogue voice is a problem as it just requires an ATA (?) in place of the NTD. (non-techie alert)
What was reported was ...
NBN Co chief executive Mike Quigley later clarified the company would carry out the government�s policy.
�There are obviously ways you can look at doing MDUs using copper," he said. �We would be remiss if we didn�t have a look at that, it�s the obvious thing to do.
�But it�s a policy decision and the government has been absolutely clear on what the policy is, it�s to provide fibre to the premises into all MDUs. That�s what we�re executing on, that�s what�s happening."
http://www.afr.
There may be other reports but it's hard to find stuff from back then.
The problem here is that Morrow's numbers simply don't add up
so it was Bill who inherited Joe's calculator!!
although on second thoughts, with some of the other numbers coming from the Liberal Party they must have purchased a batch lot from the reject shop and handed them out to all Ministers and other party acolytes.
I mean, fully costed MTM plan of $29 Billion is now over 50
Those calculators might be better used as Die in a game of Dungeons and Dragons or Diplomacy, they seem pretty good random number generators
I think there's close to $1bn pa in lower opex and higher revenue for FTTP over FTTN.
If you look at my last couple of posts I did the maths based on leaked documents, for an all FTTN network the difference is about half a billion, and for MTM it's about a billion excluding the FTTB component.
please or is this again your guess, and over what period is your long term....
The official bond rate for 10 years hit a record low this month at 2.2% so quite frankly copper man is speaking out his ass
We've also seen reports of Fibre ports being stolen, Fibre dropping out of connectors, NTDs falling off the wall
You are going to have to specify the time frames (pre/post 2013 election) for these claims as well as some evidence to bear any credibility.
I had some issues with post 2013 election when a couple of young Bangaldeshi kids installed my service � they weren't the problem themselves so much as they were two weeks off the boat (457 visas one presumes) and little training and resourcing by NBN Co. Being able to communicate would have helped for starters.
This should not be attributed to FTTP technology/infrastructure but rather the NBN Co work and fundamental business practices.
FTTP is not the problem as you seem to be trying to claim rather NBN Co itself.
I'm not sure why analogue voice is a problem as it just requires an ATA (?) in place of the NTD.
At that stage, NBN judged voip over copper to be an inferior service. It doesnt meet power backup requirements. VDSL drops � remember fttn allows 6 drops per day before it can be investigated � and syncing may take 2 minutes. QOS can still be an issue depending on routers.
NBN via FTTP was providing a fully managed analogue service from the NTD � with battery backup. An ATA is outside their network, not battery backed up, and outside of their control.
Suddenly we move to an MTM, and these issues and considerations just conveniently disappear without discussion.
All the speed issues I've seen are for FTTN connections. Links/sources for FTTP CVC issues?
The CVC issue stems from the fact that the shift to MTM has destroyed the financials of the NBN and NBN Co needs to keep the CVC high to try and make some money.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor somehow announce a return to FTTP then they will need to answer the question on how much more ARPU since as you say $40B is needed to build FTTP. The long term interest rate is closer to 5% and the NBN will need to pull in a min $2B in net cashflow just to break even on the Interest cost.
Way to misinterpet my words GMZ.
I did not say FTTP would cost $40B more to build.
I indicated that the additional $1B** OPEX needed for MTM could have covered the interest for an additional almost $40B of CAPEX for FTTP. This does not in any way say that an FTTP rollout would cost $40B more than the MTM.
The 15 year rate on Government bond when I wrote my post was 2.52% (now 2.59%), which would indicate that's the rate that NBNco are receiving money from the Federal Government at.
http://www.bloomberg.com/mar
The RBA has 10 year bonds hovering in the mid 2's also:
http://www.rba.gov.au/c
I would shudder to think a government backed enterprise would be paying consumer based interest rates.
**$1B is indicative based on other comments / data in this thread, again used to show just how expensive the MTM is when compared to the FTTP based NBN.
Even at � a $Billion per year we're still looking at ~$20B in additional CAPEX availability.
If the change to FTTP is only 8.5-10B extra, it would still be break even if NBNco are charged retail pricing of ~5%.
ie:
Break even at retail interest pricing, ie: no cost differential between MTM and FTTP NBN.
I would shudder to think a government backed enterprise would be paying consumer based interest rates.
especially because at least on the initial investment they are not. The government is raising the investment capital with bonds, technically the interest is covered by the tax payer, but thats where the return on investment comes in.
**$1B is indicative based on other comments / data in this thread
I will stand by my comments of $1B for MTM ex. 1m premises for FTTB vs 93% FTTP too, I've used actual figures from leaked NBN Co documents to arrive at that figure, and if anyone wants to challenge it I welcome them to do so without using speculative figures. That figure includes no opex for those million FTTB premises so if the FTTB portion is more than 20% of the 5 million FTTN premises that figure is not really going to effect the outcome unless that ends up being half of all FTTN premises, and if the figure is 20% or less, the difference is going to be even larger.
Even at � a $Billion per year we're still looking at ~$20B in additional CAPEX availability.
When the project started the bond rate was 5.39% so the first few bonds leveraged for the NBN will have that higher rate. Treasury and the department of finance have indicated that they are using 10 year bonds not 15 year bonds for NBN investment, so now is really the time to make available that extra capital they need. at the current 2.35% the interest is cheaper than ever predicted under the preliminary recommendations to go off-budget.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This $11 Billion deal was initiated by Labor 5-6 years ago
No it wasn't...all Labor were buying was access and customers. Turnbull bought a HUGE amount of liability by taking ownership and making the taxpayer responsible for repairs and cleanup.
If you look at my last couple of posts I did the maths based on leaked documents, for an all FTTN network the difference is about half a billion ...
Yep. You were just looking at opex though. I've added in foregone revenue to get it up to a billion. I think that's fair.
Yep. You were just looking at opex though. I've added in foregone revenue to get it up to a billion. I think that's fair.
I'm not quite sure thats a reasonable assumption, using the backwards engineered figures from plan b again, I get about $150 million lost revenue on FTTN and $107.6 million on MTM, which again is another argument against HFC because for half a billion in extra operating costs per year, you gain $42.4 million in revenue, leaving about $450 million in the negative on the cost/benefit ratio, even with the extra 21 months of revenue under their predictions, the operating costs in the first year alone strip the benefit of early revenue, in either example.
Looking closer at the Plan B documents, it does everything it can to make FTTP as least desirable as possible and still fails at that. The claim at the bottom is that the lower OPEX is largely due to not running as long on the lease payments, but you can't include the lease payments in the OPEX for FTTP as they are using the revised $4,400 CPP figure for FTTP which includes the cost of the lease payments.
And with that, I'm done basing any further analysis off these documents as the numbers are deliberately misleading.
t the current 2.35% the interest is cheaper than ever predicted under the preliminary recommendations to go off-budget.
so had NBN V1 continued, in every respect it would have benefited financially whereas FTTN MTM with reduced revenue would get marginal benefit, hence the problem now confronted with future debt servicing ...and in fact current fund raising as it is a far greater risk than expected due to lack of performance. Usually that means no finance or higher interest rates...gets worse and worse...
All Labor's fault of course... /S
I'm not quite sure thats a reasonable assumption, using the backwards engineered figures from plan b again, I get about $150 million lost revenue on FTTN and $107.6 million on MTM ...
Even the SR (exhibit 4-6) has a loss of $300m in revenue from FTTP to the MTM.
My point is ... the 'do it right, do it once, do it with fibre' thing prevents the NBNCo from considering any interim solutions.
Its the only way most of Australia, particularly, regional and suburban Australia will get long term solutions in a cost effective manner. As we see with the inclusion of interim solutions in those areas, with no plan for actually upgrading it, they will be stuck on that technology for many, many years now. Windsor was correct saying do it once, do it right. He is from a regional area and regional areas have already suffered decades of being under-served with no plan to provide ubiquity or equality that is badly needed.
A serious part of me hopes that Labor just "scraps" the NBN completely and then restarts back where it left off with FTTP. As someone who isn't even on the 3 year rollout, I'll rather wait 5 years for FTTP than 3+ years for FTTN.
Also just Gulag Ziggy, Morrow, the entirety of News Corp staff in Nauru or whatever for their crimes against this country, actually forced labour would be better, make them with their bare hands work on rolling out FTTP in the field. "No shovel for you comrades, you're hands are good enough!".
As you can tell I've had a hard time with my connection recently.
Yep. Any interim solution has to be planned with the end goal of FTTP in mind.
That has to include a cost of getting there and details of how NBN Co are going to make a return sufficient to cover that necessary future cost. Turnbull says his plan has FTTP in mind. We cannot get their using Turnbull MTM plan though. Its goingt o struggle to even pay for itself, let alone provide extra to cover the necessary FTTP upgrade.
A serious part of me hopes that Labor just "scraps" the NBN completely and then restarts back where it left off with FTTP.
They cant now. The Libs have made such a mess that it cant be easily fixed, but they have also effectively added a 2 � year delay in the project, and so further delay to fix the project properly (going back to 93% FTTP) would be political suicide. Clare will have to replace FTTN with something better, that is not going to introduce more delay, and also increase the amount of fresh FTTP in as many areas as possible. The big question will be, what happens to the poor suckers who already have FTTN? They are likely to move to the back of the FTTP upgrade line.
As you can tell I've had a hard time with my connection recently.
You arent the Lone Ranger. There are many people with an MTM connection that are complaining about it.
yep just change the SoE to not preclude FTTP by stealth...
They just need to tighten up the SOE's wording a bit. If it included value for money and running cost instead of just saying 'cost' it would make FTTN and HFC ineligible.
And they should reframe it as being a good investment rather than just cheap, which would deal with the much lower revenue potential of FTTN.
The big question will be, what happens to the poor suckers who already have FTTN? They are likely to move to the back of the FTTP upgrade line.
Yep, unfortunately that will be the likely outcome for those of us consigned to wonderful copper. It would be good if they can at least provide us with a more realistic option to pay for our own FTTP upgrade/replacement for those who really need it, unlike the current ridiculous (virtually non) option.
Ben Grubb ?@bengrubb 3m3 minutes ago
Ooft. Labor office being raided by police in Melbourne, according to @leighsales. Tony Burke says it's over the leaking of NBN documents.
Labor office being raided by police in Melbourne, according to @leighsales. Tony Burke says it's over the leaking of NBN documents.
Can't have transparency or foi can we..?
That's not going to do lnp any favors
Ben says it's probably due to this leak
Daaamn. It's getting real. *grabs popcorn*
Can't have transparency or going, can we..
That's not going to do lnp any favors
What a waste of taxpayers money, the documents leaked are of public interest. The Coalition are so desperate that they get the AFP to silence transparency and no doubt fishing for the ALP NBN policy.
The Coalition are so desperate that they get the AFP to silence transparency and no doubt fishing for the ALP NBN policy
Bound to blow up in their faces.
LNP getting desperate? nah that's not their style.
Oh wait its totally their golden infused suit.
Kieran Gilbert @Kieran_Gilbert
Stephen Conroy's Melb office currently being raided by AFP in relation to NBN leaks, staffer's home in Brunswick will also be raided #auspol
Drawing attention to the NBN and the content of the NBN documents related to the AFP raid could result in a net negative for the Federal Coalition as far as the upcoming election goes. Even if it does claim the scalp of both Conroy and the whistleblower.
Kieran Gilbert @Kieran_Gilbert
Stephen Conroy's Melb office currently being raided by AFP in relation to NBN leaks, staffer's home in Brunswick will also be raided #auspol
And we hope that Stephen is smart enough to not have any incriminating evidence in the office...
Finally the NBN is back in the headlines
I hope this backfires in the coalitions face. Drawing attention to leaks which are evident of their failure on the project.
I hope this backfires in the coalitions face. Drawing attention to leaks which are evident of their failure on the project.
Have a feeling that's exactly what will happen. The public will be asking themselves "what do they have REALLY have to hide!".
Maybe Abbots mates in the AFP doing him a favor to further discredit Turnbull.
I hope this backfires in the coalitions face. Drawing attention to leaks which are evident of their failure on the project.
I think it will backfire bigtime
it will tell us his second rate network is costing the same as the so called "gold plated" network
so peopel will surely ask why.
So much for the usual suspects here telling us that the NBN and fast broadband are a non-issue. It appears that the LNP don't agree with them.
Ha!
deleted
I don't think it is co-incidental that this has been done at the start of the weekend news cycle, because people typically don't watch the news from Friday to Sunday. They know this very well.
Labor will have to find a way to fan the flames so that it will still be an issue on Monday.
^^ This.
In maybe a big way as apparently the homes of around 20 NBNCo employees have also been raided.
In maybe a big way as apparently the homes of around 20 NBNCo employees have also been raided.
Good.. might actually lead to lnp figure..
We were told the NBN wasn't an election issue. It was supposed to be kept under a rock with the other roaches. It certainly will be an issue now.
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo. So basically they've triggered the raids of their own staff
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo. So basically they've triggered the raids of their own staff
Yes.. heads will roll.. Hope come the lnp ministers escape scrutiny? Could have been an inside job..
Political views arise, we wait to see who requested the raids, why, and on what grounds.....
Dreyfus was on Lateline on ABC News 24. He is not a happy chappy. I missed most of the interview but apparently the AFP investigation was requested by the NBNCo. I'll catch it later on ABC.
Yes.. heads will roll.. Hope come the lnp ministers escape scrutiny? Could have been an inside job..
Surely the place to run too is obvious. With so many FTTP gardens dug up in the remains of Labor's FTTP rollout. there are plenty of holes in those gardens to hide in. Find a hole. Hide in it. Because Bill Morrow was right about digging up those gardens.
/s
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo.
OR, the AFP just want to know when their own houses are getting FTTP ...
In maybe a big way as apparently the homes of around 20 NBNCo employees have also been raided.
but, but, the employee satisfaction survey said they were all happy so why would they leak?
why would they leak?
indeed. as common sense says (i know i know.. its the MTM so this goes out the window), leaks happen because there is something ready to burst and it wants to get out!
I notice not a peep from The Australian.
On Sky News, the scrolling news at the bottom of the screen is all about these raids
Referral to AFP apparently originated from NBNCo.
And no doubt the Coalition requested NBNCo to refer it in hope to shut the doors of transparency (ie: the leaks). The Coalition isn't that stupid to try and distance itself.
Ben says it's probably due to this leak
I wonder if Mark Kenny might do an NBN article tomorrow morning in SMH .....
So why are they investigating alp offices , when the alp asked for the investigations to start with?
I think he is referring to other matters not NBN with the 20 requests...
What are the AFP hoping to find? afaik Labor hasn't done anything wrong by receiving leaked documents.
What is being sought is the source within NBN Co ....and the opportunity to take the heat off the flagging prospects of the LNP by diverting attention from policies because they have none other than corporate tax reduction and a fear campaign with asylum seekers ....and that won't hold for another six weeks. The budget has only 29% approval rating as well so that's a dud too.
Regardless, there is nothing wrong in Labor receiving anonymous NBN information � if they have done something illegal with it then they have something to answer for. The focus has to be NBN Co source and that can be construed there is lots more bad news for Turnbull....
and the opportunity to take the heat off the flagging prospects of the LNP by diverting attention
The LNP are in a winning position. I would think drawing attention to the NBN would be the last thing they would want to do.
Dreyfus was on Lateline on ABC News 24. He is not a happy chappy. I missed most of the interview but apparently the AFP investigation was requested by the NBNCo. I'll catch it later on ABC.
The LNP are in a winning position.
Barely, but when the cornerstone of their campaign � the budget (supposedly different to Abbott's) is dead in the water with polls showing 29% acceptance something has to change. Morrisson has failed dismally there. It is more than apparent Turnbull doesn't want to talk about NBN other than in glancing comments so clearly there are issues there for him.
http://www.roymorgan.com/morganpoll ...Lab 52.5 to lnp 47.5 with other still 51/49 Labors way...as I said barely and the trend is swinging to Labor and there are 6 weeks to go.
I would think drawing attention to the NBN would be the last thing they would want to do.
Can't disagree � it does not make sense. Who knows there might be an Abbott factor here...doesn't the Attorney General Brandis (close Abbott ally?) need to be involved in AFP directives for political searches? Turnbull's appointment to Minister for Comms with the agenda directive from Abbott to destroy NBN regarded by many as a political poison chalice...is this the last hurrah (almost maybe) for Abbott?
Surprise, surprise!
Front page story on Limited News' Herald Sun.
http://heraldsun.digitaleditions.com.au/?code=401
Desperate people, do desperate things!
Front page headline on http://www.theaustralian.com.au/ now
Raided: Conroy�s office, adviser�s house
Live: A police raid on Labor front�bencher Stephen Conroy�s Melbourne office late last night has sparked a �political storm.
No mention
(a) of NBN in the headline.
(b) that it's all about who at NBN that leaked the documents or to find more documents that are about to be leaked
Assuming most people that look at the online or offline media only get as far as looking at the headlines online or offline and don't actually read the story, the editorial choice and tone of words and pictures to use or not use in headlines is potentially very powerful.
The owners of The Australian clearly do not want discussion on the Federal Coalition's NBN/MTM seeing as
(a) how they virtually unquestioningly supported the creation of this Mongrel
(b) they generally support and back the "Conservative" side of politics that created it
(c.) Tony Abbott, signed off on the NBN/MTM. He is ex staff, and potential future staff or at least a lobbyist ongoing in some form for many of the Australian owners preferred policies (see http://www.ipa.org.au/ for more details)
(d) Peta Credlin, is now working for Sky
(e) Henry Ergas (consultant on the MTM) is either an employee or contractor for them
(f) the MTM model, destruction of the previous NBN model, and likely outcome of the MTM, suits their short, medium and long term goals in Australia
Clearly the intention is to smear Labour. I hope people will have their attention drawn to the fact that Liberal policy has severely damaged the whole NBN concept and is a complete fail & waste of money compared to the previous quality plan.
I hope this smear attempt backfires badly on the instigators.
Front page story on Limited News' Herald Sun.
http://heraldsun.digitaleditions.com.au/?code=401
With headlines of
Campaign Bombshell
AFP Executes warrants on senator's office
Probe launched into ALP mole in NBN ranks
COPS RAID LABOR The main headline
A stunned Bill Shorten and Jason Clare last night with half page picture of Shorten and Clare.
All coming from a publication whose owners were embroiled in this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
The effect of the phone hacking scandal originating with the News of the World also raised wider questions about the ethics employed by companies under Murdoch's ownership, as well as the effects the scandal will have on the ethics employed specifically by print journalists and to some extent the wider world of journalism.
Murdoch had previously been criticised for building a media empire that lacked any ethical base and replacing responsible journalism with "gossip, sensationalism, and manufactured controversy.
Rupert Murdoch admitted that a cover-up had taken place within the News of the World to hide the scope of the phone hacking. On 1 May 2012, a parliamentary select committee report concluded that Murdoch "exhibited wilful blindness to what was going on in his companies and publications," and stated that he was "not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company
On 3 July 2013, Channel 4 News broadcast a secret tape in which Murdoch dismissively claims that investigators were "totally incompetent" and acted over "next to nothing", and excuses his papers' actions as "part of the culture of Fleet Street.
In July 2011 the Ethical Investment Advisory Group (EIAG) of the Church of England, England's Established church, issued a statement stating that "The behaviour of the News of the World has been utterly reprehensible and unethical. In August 2012 the EIAG further announced that it had no confidence in News Corporation's stated intention of returning to ethical practices, and that as a result all Church of England organisations would cease investment in News Corporation.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/a
This is something at least.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/
This is something at least.
"We will support whatever the government of the day's policy is in relation to the NBN," Telstra chief executive Andy Penn told reporters on Thursday.
Something very concerning.
So if it is a crap Policy (from either sides of Government), that is not in the interest of the National, or is doomed to failure or a massive blow out in time or costs or quality or fitness for purpose, how is Telstra going to show some Corporate leadership?
If the government's Policy of the day is to increase Corporate Tax rates to 50%, will Telstra just say "We will support whatever the government of the day's policy is in relation to levels of Corporate Tax"?
Why the appeasement for NBN policy?
What about same sex marriage and Telstra?
Apparently Delimiter and the Australian are named in the warrant...they'll barely get a sideways glance I'd wager.
Good.. might actually lead to lnp figure
The undeniable facts are that conroy' s office and a staffer' s home for Jason Clare were raided.
How on earth would the LNP be linked when it's all on Labor that seemed to have illegally gotten hold of sensitive documents.
Stick to the facts and the facts we know is that the Labor party premises were raised.
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Stick to the facts and the facts we know is that the Labor party premises were raised.
ROFLMAO.
Stick the facts � Thanks to this the facts (the real facts) will now be in the public domain.
The cost blow out, the time frames etc.
Why did the AFP chase this up and not the leaking of the defence white paper?
Are you saying the fact that this was leaked to news corp isn't strange � REALLY?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Stick to the facts and the facts we know ....
I just don't know what to say to that comment from you GMT ..... I'm just gobsmacked.
Well I'm not really actually. I've got to confess I'm telling a little white lie.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
it's all on Labor that seemed to have illegally gotten hold of sensitive documents.
Which is about the only type of NBN disclosure we have seen since 2013...
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
I am very happy that whoever leaked did so...it is important to know just how huge Turnbull's whoppers are becoming.
whoever leaked did so...it is important to know just how huge Turnbull's whoppers are becoming.
Would you be very happy if prison terms are handed to whom ever leaked and spread the documents?
Which is about the only type of NBN disclosure we have seen since 2013...
UM plenty of disclosure, rollout statistics, corporate plans etc
So looks like the Libs are going to be embarrassed by the leaks. Excellent � nice to see the Libs dirty tactics being used on themselves
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
Spoken like a good little party member.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents
Ever heard of whistle blowers and public interest?
When a document exposes incompetence of a government management of a government owned company, don't you think it is really important that voters been informed about it. Or do you prefer governments be able to cover up their incompetence, especially when alot of public money is involved?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
ROFLMAO � as if!
I guess you would say the same thing if an ex pm leaked a defence white paper.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Would you be very happy if prison terms are handed to whom ever leaked and spread the documents?
I would be very happy if those prison terms resulted in a rework of our horrendous whistleblower protection laws (or lack thereof).
And as you well know those leaked documents weren't sensitive, and more importantly they were very much in the public interest. Which, if we had decent whistleblower protection laws, would automatically absolve the leakers of any wrongdoing.
Also:
It would constitute the misuse of national security laws to clamp down on a public discussion that had caused political embarrassment. And it would not be the first time.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/fede
Follow us: @theage on Twitter | theageAustralia on Facebook
The plot thickens...
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The undeniable facts are that conroy' s office and a staffer' s home for Jason Clare were raided.
How on earth would the LNP be linked when it's all on Labor that seemed to have illegally gotten hold of sensitive documents.
Stick to the facts and the facts we know is that the Labor party premises were raised.
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
The NBN Co is an arm of government. Its board was appointed by the government. Its actions � because of the timing are political. Their actions and decisions can and will hurt the government.
Labor has claimed parliamentary privilege on these documents. There is no reason for them to delete the documents. No doubt � they show significant miss-truths told to the Senate Committee on the NBN. We know of many of them already. Morrow himself claimed that many of the documents weren't of NBN origin � further reason not to delete them.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes..
The undeniable facts are that conroy' s office and a staffer' s home for Jason Clare were raided.
Wonder if they found "the napkin" in search of a better Coalition NBN strategy?
If anyone within the Labor party got hold of these documents from an insider at nbn then they should have immediately ignored the insider and deleted the documents.
Thanks for that Malsplain.
I wonder if the situation were reversed whether you'd say the same thing? Don't answer ... the question is rhetorical ... I know what you'd answer ... and I also know what would really happen.
Source Please
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
I'd prefer not to jump off a cliff to find out what's at the end.
We are already well over the cliff with the MTM.
But Labor could save us all the trouble and tell us how what they're going to do with the NBN.
Labor will reveal it when its ready, whats the rush?
How about call the AFP for a second raid to get their hands on sensitive info?
Don't answer ... the question is rhetorical ... I know what you'd answer
Its also not so much rhetorical as demonstrable, when cherry picked phrases from the McKinsey implementation study that pointed out certain risks, Raoul and his ilk were wetting their pants over it.
I'd prefer not to jump off a cliff to find out what's at the end.
So you'd prefer to be steered off a cliff, knowing there's a pile of broken glass and crap at the bottom?
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
Missed what he was asking. Well done.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Would you be very happy if prison terms are handed to whom ever leaked and spread the documents?
Now how many times have prison terms been handed down because someone has breached CiC agreements?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Stick to the facts
I was surprised to see you telling others to stick to the facts.
If Labor were to switch back to a full fibre plan that would mean a mid range cost of $80 billion. It would mean completion in 2026. That's not a very good alternative.
Compared to delivering a half baked NBN that will take longer to deliver, cost more and be slower, only after all that has been done, it will have to be replaced with FTTP anyway? Now how much will that cost?
If Labor were to switch back to a full fibre plan that would mean a mid range cost of $80 billion. It would mean completion in 2026
Only under the current management. Replace them with competent operators and an appropriate SoE and watch FttP rollout ramp up and realise the costs saving that current management are incapable of delivering.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I have yet to hear from the AFP what had caused them to seek search warrants
I heard from news based sources that they were looking for NBN staffers email addresses to identify the leakers.
Probable Cause that a crime may have been committed, and that crime being something within the AFP jurisdiction.
Which leaking this information is. Sadly we don't have a sufficient level of whistleblower protection to cover these kinds of leaks
It would mean completion in 2026
Only if they stopped for a few years...Even at the current FTTP rollout rate, they would complete FTTP by 2021-2023.
http://www.abc.net
All of the data has been documented at the bottom (unlike the NBN Co report).
If Labor were to switch back to a full fibre plan that would mean a mid range cost of $80 billion. It would mean completion in 2026.
Perhaps with decent management not intent on reverse engineering costs to substantiate the position of their feeder?
Other counties can deploy FTTP at a far lower cost than this crew
What is the LNP time estimate to get to the same endpoint?
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I have yet to hear from the AFP what had caused them to seek search warrants.
Journalists' metadata?
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
Which has been proven to be wrong � just like Malcolm's promises in 2013
What #NBN approach is better value for $$$ ??? FTTN FTTP
A one question survey:
https://twitter.com/ValueMgmt/status/732832466650726404
or the longer version:
What is really important to you about FTTP FTTN? Compare their value for $$$?
A Valuing FTTN & FTTP; NBN Australia 2016 Survey
Rate #NBN #FTTN #FTTP on #value for money� on a number of dimensions...
... or add your own dimensions...
Journalists' metadata?
Warrants to that effect would be served on service providers (phone and/or internet) not on political offices and staffers.
NBN Co 2016 Corporate Plan (pg 39). Cost projection was actually a range ($74-84 billion)
Quoting works of fiction still eh kingy, tut tut.
I guess the alp will have to release their policy sooner than later now.
I guess the alp will have to release their policy sooner than later now.
Not necessarily. The raids have given the ALP the ability, from now on, to play the NBN as an issue with no need to bring out a policy; the ALP can release an NBN policy at its leisure.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
It may not have a choice.
Although the afp should now have to investigate non co for stealing "sensitive information" going by the lnp supporters here.
Although the afp should now have to investigate non co for stealing "sensitive information" going by the lnp supporters here.
Seeing they "took photos of 34 or 35 documents" seems like they arn't sure just how many photos were taken so maybe the AFP along with a representative from Conroy's Office acting as a "special constable" should head over to NBN and go through everything they have to make sure there are no more photos.....
https://twitter.com/DavidSharaz?ref_src=twsrc
Someone with better eyesight might be able to read that.
Someone with better eyesight might be able to read that.
This better?
https://pbs.twimg.com
This better?
mmmm.
"images contained on the phone"
Maybe they also need to request that images automatically backed up to the cloud be deleted as well.
All they would have needed to do was disable auto delete "cloud backup" on the phone and they would still have a cloud copy of those images
Maybe they also need to request that images automatically backed up to the cloud be deleted as we
They did.
Conroys legal team have also asked who authorised the taking of such images.
They did.
Conroys legal team have also asked who authorised the taking of such images.
good.
I hope Sen Conroy or his legal team have a pair or 2 of winklepickers to wear at the appropriate time
Is it just me that lol'd at "downloaded onto a USB". :)
Well well well fellow forumites who appreciate a proper NBN, what a wonderful day for free kicks Labor has received!!
Mr Turnbull is not going to come out of this well at all.
Labor will thank the NBN staffer for taking those illicit pics!
just me that lol'd
I cringe every time I hear someone call a thumb drive a "USB", USB is the connector, not the device.
free kicks Labor has received!!
Seems almost like an own goal by Mr S.
Seems almost like an own goal by Mr S.
It will highlight Turnbull's incompetence. There is only so much mileage one get from charisma & eloquent speaking before actual substance is put under the blowtorch
I hope Sen Conroy or his legal team have a pair or 2 of winklepickers to wear at the appropriate time
a �factional bovver boy�
Me thinks the current opposition Minister for Defence is going to defend himself ably, show them what happens when you bovver him like this, and go kick some arse. Go Stephen.
Does he have a twitter?
Appears not. But he's being talked about on Twitter quite a bit today.
https://twitter.com/search?q=lee-steere&src=typd
#NBNGATE is trending on Twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/nbngate
#NBNGATE is trending on Twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/nbngate
There are some pearlers on that Twitter page.
Anyway s/he states:
Status quo for NBN Co to hide things isn't it Kingforce? Lets hope the person is charged for illegally obtaining and disseminating documents they had no right to collect. There needs to be lots of questions asked of the government, NBN Co and the AFP about what has happened here right?
Lets hope the person is charged for illegally obtaining and disseminating documents they had no right to collect.
I don't know that it is illegal. If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
So your not concerned about illegal dissemination of alp policy documents or the damage that may be done?
So your not concerned about illegal dissemination of alp policy documents or the damage that may be done?
Who told you that it was ALP policy documents and why do you believe them?
Senior Labor sources have confirmed to BuzzFeed News they suspect one of the documents photographed by the NBN staffer was the party's yet to be released NBN policy.
Labor fears the policy has been leaked to the Liberal Party, and may be given to the media before Bill Shorten gets a chance to announce it during the election campaign.
How can the LCP release it to the media without admitting that they obtained it from the raided documents?
Particularly so IF Labor (now) has the originals in a very secure place with limited access to other 'lesser' Labor-ites.
Senior Labor sources
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Does it matter if they do or not?
Does it matter if they do or not?
That was my thought too. It was a bit of a cheap/petty shot. Time people get real here.
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Says the guy using an alias on Whirlpool....
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
Nothing can stop NBNCo suffering commercial damages except an ALP election victory.
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
You quoted an anonymous person in another thread (who subsequently admitted/claimed they hadn't seen the misbehaving special constable for several years) as an authority on what happened or didn't happen during the raid.
then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
The damage has already been done.... that's what the original leaked documents showed, the complete lies, deceit and coverup from the LNP. The commercial damage from the MTM is there, and the public's right to know about it is what has been ignored in all of this. But it appears that if you make Turnbull look incompetent you can expect a visit from the AFP. There's nothing right about that.
*I know that wasn't your quote, but I quoted it from your response.
Karina Keisler, the Executive General Manager of Corporate Affairs at NBN Co, tweeted on Friday the staff was just following the instructions of the AFP.
There is no way that the AFP said to this guy, "Make sure you pass those pics onto your bosses and the Liberal Party."
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Lets see your name for the record.
I don't know that it is illegal.
Seriously?? This person is a representative of the entity that called the AFP to investigate leaks that NBN Co claimed are theft of its IP. This person has photographed documents they had no right nor responsibility to photograph, and has dissemenated them to other sources. How is this any less illegal than the "illegal" behaviour that NBN called the AFP about? Its worse given these documents are under parliamentary privilege and are said to be unrelated to NBN Co leaks. Its stealing � plain and simple.
In another thread, you are bleating on about leaks damaging NBN Co and favouring third parties, but when its potentially Labors NBN policy that has been leaked, you dont have a problem with the benefit that can be derived by third parties of access to such documents prior to their release. Hypocritical much?
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Typical � deflection from the real issue.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
There is no way that the AFP said to this guy, "Make sure you pass those pics onto your bosses and the Liberal Party."
or said
"Hey mate, get your phone out and photograph anything you want, and you dont need to let us know what you took pics of � go nuts"
How can the LCP release it to the media without admitting that they obtained it from the raided documents?
Particularly so IF Labor (now) has the originals in a very secure place with limited access to other 'lesser' Labor-ites.
They do not have to release it. What it gives them is the opportunity to NOT appear flatfooted.
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
How come? Was it just CiC for the "leaker"?
Also, what commercial damage would be suffered if the documents were made public? Is there some hidden entity that NBNCo are courting to hop in with????
Is there some hidden entity that NBNCo are courting to hop in with????
not hidden, just CiC
*e*s*r*
is the best guess
*p*u* or *P* at a long shot
You wanted quotes from alp for "do it once, do it right, do it with fibre" , and your still not happy..
Nah only happy when billions of $$$ squandered on a half arsed unreliable internet for the masses.
They couldn't give a toss about progress and the ever growing digital economy.
Will you two just find a room!
Meanwhile, in reality � this now has legs and is not only getting people talking about the MTM, it's also highlighting the mismanagement under Malcolm.
How can someone be trusted to run the country if they can't even manage 1 infrastructure project right?
Repeat after me � "It's all Labor's fault" x 10,000.
I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
But not by alp , which you are insinuating.. they were stolen by nbn staffers ..
They were taken without anybody's permission
They were COPIED without anyone's permission...there is a HUGE difference.
Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest
What sort of proof would you accept? I think you mean to ask in what way this information dissemination to the public about their investment will financially injure NBN Co...
But not by alp , which you are insinuating.. they were stolen by nbn staffers ..
their is no proof that they were stolen they may have been duplicated which is not theft.
Only a court can deem anything stolen.
Up until then "allegedly stolen" should be used by everyone including Malcolm Turnbull QC MP, who should damn well know due process
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
Now how is it that you have left the LNP Govt out of that list... they have lots of questions to ask particularly as to why they are not do their job as Taxpayer representatives and mismanaging their portfolios or not even doing anything at all. The Minister responsible for AFP (who is that actually?) has many questions to answer about the raid itself � incompetence ?... illegalities of taking and distribution of photos?...breaches of parliamentary privilege?....
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
NO!! if your LNP mates were doing their job they should be furious and investigating, on behalf of taxpayers and NBN Co what the hell happened and asking why they were not told � total incompetence of Fifield and Brandis who locked into arse protection mode .... or deception mode
Labor should not have publicly questioned the AFP's timing
You must be is such a state of shock and fear you've slipped into lala fantasy land or alternatively stop that tranquilising medication � you are on another planet....
I'm still waiting on Jason Clare's plan to deliver better broadband quicker and at an affordable price.
I'll bet you are!! That's why the raid was undertaken wasn't it? � Patience Kingy ...your time will come
...thanks for revealing your true alliance. No wonder we cannot get sense in. Its going to be like this the whole election campaign and beyond, won't it?
When I say "us" I'm talking about the people of Australia.
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost. I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter.
When I say "us" I'm talking about the people of Australia.
Hah, as if you speak for me. How dare you think I will ally myself with any party.
I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter.
You're saying that Turnbull's lies are more plausible than an unannounced policy from the ALP?
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest
Were they stolen/taken?
Show me where it says that.
They were leaked � by nbn staff!
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
Do I need to repeat it a couple more times?
The LNP have no track record on this!
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
No, no, no .... the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition are doing a spectacular job all by themselves.
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
"IT'S ALL LABOR'S FAULT".
It's like a mantra for LNP supporters isn't it Kingee. Does your wife complain when you continuously mumble that in your sleep?
Very vague and extremely cynical I would say GMZ. Labor should not treat us as if we don't know anything.
Ahhh the mutual backslapping.
We know that Turnbull et al have been keeping the truth of their MTM failures from the public.
I agree Queeg this is just disgraceful behaviour by the LNP Government.
Labor's suggestions that the AFP are goons acting for the Liberal party are loopy
Ohh Kingee can you please find the quote for this? Nahh didn't think so. Still making stuff up.
Who knows? But it's very petulant behaviour from Labor.
Maybe that's the reason why the search took so long because Labor staffers kept dragging their feet.
Please see previous comment of "IT'S ALL LABOR'S FAULT".
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
Which is all the sort of information that Quigley and NBNCo routinely put up on the NBNCo website. But Turnbull, Fifield and Morrow have to hide the truth about the clusterf^*k they have created. How about some transparency Kingee ... true transparency and there would have been no need for any leaks.
How many times does the AFP commissioner have to say that the AFP was responsible for the timing of the raids?
There are really only 2 possibilities...
1. The AFP Commissioner is inept enough to schedule this for the middle of an election on his own (I hope that isn't true)
2. There is some political intimidation involved
NBN Co says that he fully complied with AFP direction.
He illegally photographed and then forwarded PP docs to the NBNCo.
Either AFP is incompetent and gave him wrong instructions or he committed an offence.
Which one is it?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It's very common for the AFP to bring in assistance
No probs with that but it is very apparent the assistant was either running the show or not supervised � neither position is tenable.
this very serious matter that has embroiled the ALP who are now trying to hide parliament priveldge.
ALP is not hiding anything...Smart enough to claim PP to prevent irresponsible actions perhaps...the NBN docs are all in public domain since December (?) what's the problem...are there other more damning docs (to NBN Co and LNP govt that is) at hand maybe?
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
I'd check the facts on that Kingy...there are particular reqs with PP sealed docs I believe..... your assumption is not correct.
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
And when Labor requested the information 2 months ago from Government, it should have been given instead of waiting until the day of the election calling...
I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter
Interesting...yet when Turnbull told bald-faced lies prior to the last election, and every techo in the country called them out for the lies they were, the Australian Voter was easily fooled. So you think that by telling the truth, the ALP are on the wrong track?
It's disgraceful that the LNP put their operative in and then got him to take pictures as part of an AFP raid � this is the level of discussion we now have in this thread.
Would the 2 LNP supporters please stop posting opinions as facts � it isn't fooling anyone and is getting tiring.
1. The AFP Commissioner is inept enough to schedule this for the middle of an election on his own (I hope that isn't true)
The sealed documents won't speed the investigation...will they...
2. There is some political intimidation involved
The raids involved offices of the Opposition yet the MSM were left alone...
As Turnbull said that's just shameful.
As with everything else, and particularly NBN, those that know him well know to read the opposite of what he says....common for snake oil salesmen types
I can pretty much guarantee
Do you have a scoop on the proceeds from the raid Kingy eh? eh? Copies of illegal photos?
Keep waiting KIngy , you will find out when you are told...
Which one is it?
In a statement, the AFP said it believed it had acted appropriately and in accordance with the law in raids, saying the NBN staff were assisting with document verficiation.
"Taking photos was part of this verification process," the statement said.
"These employees were under the direction and supervision of AFP officers at all times during the search warrant."
http://www.abc.ne
Given the documents were under parliamentary privilege, I'd say that shows the AFP is incompetent.
Maybe that MTMCo/LNP operative fancied himself as comparable to a Watergate plumber in stealing opposition material.
It seems to me he deserves the same as what the Watergate plumbers got.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
This is not true, I don't know how many times I need to post the AFP policy on this but the policy is for them to be sealed in audit bags and delivered to the clerk of the senate, procedure then gives a cooling of period for the MP or senator to withdraw their claim of privilege. If they indicate that they wish to pursue the claim of parliamentary privilege it is then handled by parliamentary court or the given house that member belongs to, to rule whether parliamentary privilege applies. If the ruling is that it does, the AFP don't get the documents, end of question. If they could just search through the documents potentially compromising investigations by senate committees, there would be absolutely no point in the procedure even existing.
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
The AFP have damaged themselves (again). They don't need anyone else to help them.
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
The commentary is a direct result of the AFP bungle, NBN playing politics, and the Libs trying desperately to create a scandal to try and shift focus away from their failing in the polls. Labor are supposed to be the victims, but the Libs couldn't even manage to get that right. More egg on face for Turnbull and Co.
Normally this type of social media chatter wouldn't matter, but it's different this time because we're in the middle of an election.
If the media wasn't tipped off, and if the AFP hadn't done some dodgy stuff, then it wouldn't have had the oxygen it has received. There is plenty here to question. The fact that you are ok with what has happened speaks volumes.
Labor should not have publicly questioned the AFP's timing of the raids or publicly demanded that documents be destroyed. That's very poor behaviour on Labor's part. Labor has nothing to do with it. The raids should never have happened. There have been much more serious leaks happen elsewhere with no AFP involvement. This is just another example for the Libs desperately trying to shut down public debate and silence the media and it blew up in the Libs face.
What's even more frustrating is that this does nothing for the NBN debate
Correct. Shutting down channels that provide real information about the MTM rollout and how badly it is going cant be any good for the debate. Debate cannot be had when facts are unavailable and that is exactly where Turnbull and Co is trying to get to . Its increasingly obvious that the Libs and NBN Co are seriously scared of the truth getting out. Best thing that can happen is for Labor to get in, show the reality of how badly the MTM is going and what a daft idea it was and then try and sort it all out. Wouldn't like to be in Clares shoes having that task!
I'm still waiting on Jason Clare's plan to deliver better broadband quicker and at an affordable price. I am surprised you weren't on the top of the list to receive the illegal photos the NBN Co staffer took that are purported to contain some of that detail.
Once again � lets blame the ALP � as always!
I laughed at this one. The straw clutching is reaching new levels. No one can seriously believe the raids were Labor's fault. It makes absolutely no sense. There is a word starting with t that best explains those sort of posts.
Yes, the timing of the AFP raids is shameful as is the conduct of the raids.
as is Turnbull's shameful lack of leadership, honesty and integrity not only with NBN but across the board... Turnbull has forgotten he is the Prime Minister of the people of this country and they expect so much more of those qualities from someone holding that office....
Having the job of PM is so very different from doing it properly... its more than ego self massaging, it is the honour and privilege of public service...you know the words every person that gets to be put in the role of PM says the day they get it at the TV event broadcast to the whole country.
If one checks the polls Turnbull's trajectory is heading down rapidly now for this very reason.
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
LOL, your posts seem very desperate. Its obvious by now your agenda.
The documents were leaked from within NBNCo.
There was no way Conroy could have got them, unless they were given to him anonymously.
You agree with everything Turnbull says, doesn't mean his right.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It's very common for the AFP to bring in assistance from federal agencies such as the ATO or nbn in this case to investigate this very serious matter that has embroiled the ALP who are now trying to hide parliament priveldge.
You and Kingforce don't even seem to understand what the raid is about. NBN Co staff have allegedly done the wrong things by leaking documents. The AFP have ballsed up the investigation. Labor has had nothing to do with the leak or the AFP's farcical handling of the issue.
Once police enter the premises they can search anything they want even what the ALP claim to be sealed documents, is the ALP hiding something?
Demonstrating your lack of understanding again Raoul. The AFP have been caught out not doing their job properly. Pretty simple.
Questions for you, who allowed the NBN Co staffer to take pictures and send them to whoever they wanted? Was that allowed under the warrant? Was that allowed under AFP document collection procedures? Who tipped off the media so they were there before the AFP even arrived? Why does parliamentary privilege not apply to documents in a senators office?
I dare Jason Clare and all of the Labor party to use that as a slogan at the election!
As if they would take any notice of anything you say Kingy.....really...your delusion to self importance is ......just is...
Turnbull said that documents were stolen from NBN Co
So if that is the case why have two NBN employees been stood down....?
Define stolen please...
Given the documents were under parliamentary privilege, I'd say that shows the AFP is incompetent.
As per their own admission.
But this sorry LNP/AFP/NBNCo mess doesn't end there...:
Opposition Senate leader Penny Wong said she wanted an explanation from government-owned NBN Co about who saw the photos before their destruction.
We know that those photos were disseminated, those photos were sent at least to NBN, but we don't know who they were sent to. The Government should make clear who they were sent to," she said.
"The Government should tell Australians who got the photos and the Government should make clear they've been destroyed."
Mark Dreyfus, the guy who wants to be Attorney General, went around initially questioning the timing of the AFP raids.
Various media outlets were named in the warrant. Why were only Labor offices and Labor staff homes searched? Who tipped off the press so they could be there before the AFP arrived? Why haven't the AFP been called to investigate other more important leaks to do with national security etc, but they get called on Turnbulls pet project hat is proving nothing but an embarrassment for him?
People are right to ask questions about timing and due process. You would be screaming bloody murder if it were the other way around and it had been Labor who had been seen to initiate the raid.
Still waiting on Labor's NBN plan by the way.
Isn't it telling that despite all the indignation from Labor that they still have no idea how to improve the MTM?
These 2 statements prove how desperate the Liberal supporters are to beat up an argument. First sentence you claim to not know what Labor is going to do. Very next sentence you claim to know that they cant improve the MTM. You cant have it both ways.
How many times does the AFP commissioner have to say that the AFP was responsible for the timing of the raids?
Were they responsible for ensuring the media was there to make sure it made the news?
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
LOL, Turnbull is a Lawyer. To say something like that shows how sad he is.
The documents were leaked within NBNco and given to the ALP. To turn around and say they were stolen? If he really is a lawyer, his a pretty shit one. Try putting that through the courts.
The desperation from MT and the LNP is really showing. Bring on the implosion.
The AFP should be allowed to do their job.
Who stopped them doing their job? Based on the media coverage, (who tipped off the media again?), it looked like they went in and did their job. Its concerning that you aren't worried about how badly they did their job and how poorly they control documents they are supposed to be collecting.
Labor's suggestions that the AFP are goons acting for the Liberal party are loopy.
Labors suggestions are that NBN co were ordered to call them in by the Libs. That has a lot of credence, given the timing and how things have played out.
Also, even Sky news has ran a story with a headline that concedes that Mr. S. may face charges.
And rightly so. The AFP handling of this raid has been appalling and the NBN Co staffer knew that he shouldn't be taking pictures and sending them off to other NBN staffers. Its simple common sense. There needs to be an investigation into the whole mess and charges laid for theft of documents, and illegally disseminating documents, just as a start.
Also, even Sky news has ran a story with a headline that concedes that Mr. S. may face charges.
Been trying to find that, but nothing yet.
The desperation from MT and the LNP is really showing.
Other than sheer spite, I can't see a reason for the LNP to orchestrate something like this. I mean, it's obvious that they have, but desperation? I'm not sold. They've achieved their goal; we're not getting FTTP for at least another generation, thus extending the monopoly on all forms of Australian media and communication of the LNP's donors. I see this as nothing more than a final "screw you, we won" from the LNP, rather than a last-ditch effort to stop Labor from rolling out an FTTP NBN. That dream is dead for the next 25 years. The best we can hope for now is a mix of FTTdp and DOCSIS 3.0.
Would the 2 LNP supporters please stop posting opinions as facts ...
Is there a term commonly used on the internet to describe this sort of behaviour?
NBN raids: how independent are the federal police? � Behind the Lines podcast with Kristina Keneally
http://www.theguar
Been trying to find that, but nothing yet.
search with nbn staffer ;) theres 2 copies of the article, 1 deleted and 1 live
ELECTION LIVE: NBN staffer may face jail
Yep thanks
Http://news/top-stories/2016
Is there a term commonly used on the internet to describe this sort of behaviour?
Astroturfers
404
That link wasn't quite right, but found the story is here:
What do the lnp supporters think of that?
The lnp operative might get jail
Mod note
We need to take the AFP raids discussion to the relevant thread! /forum-replies.cfm?t=2532259
That dream is dead for the next 25 years.
unless enough people, like you, vote Labor of course
Other than sheer spite, I can't see a reason for the LNP to orchestrate something like this. I mean, it's obvious that they have, but desperation? I'm not sold. They've achieved their goal; we're not getting FTTP for at least another generation, thus extending the monopoly on all forms of Australian media and communication of the LNP's donors. I see this as nothing more than a final "screw you, we won" from the LNP, rather than a last-ditch effort to stop Labor from rolling out an FTTP NBN. That dream is dead for the next 25 years. The best we can hope for now is a mix of FTTdp and DOCSIS 3.0.
Whether we get FTTP or not is moot.
They don't want anything MTM related exposed prior to the election. Its pretty obvious for the last 3 years, no media coverage. The desperation stems from trying to keep a lid on things despite the heavy handed tactics going via the AFP.
It must be really bad the whole MTM project, from financials down to rollout management.
The lnp operative might get jail
yes just another silly deluded low level lib supporter that takes the fall for the big wigs.
It must be really bad the whole MTM project, from financials down to rollout management.
There was no conceivable scenario in which it would be anything but a total shambles. It's 2016 (and a half), let's take a look at how the Coalition's promise of "Cheaper, faster, better" is turning out...
Cheaper
Costs have blown out as the amount of copper that would need replacing was severely underestimated, as well as the ever-increasing cost of maintaining a positively ancient copper network. Additionally, advances in FTTP now price it cheaper per premises than FTTN, negating the initial touted savings made by switching in the first place.
Faster (in both rollout and speed)
Rollout: Rollout wise, it's 2016 and vast swathes of the country still haven't got access to "at least 25Mbps".
Speed: Speed wise, the few suburbs that DO have FTTN are reporting only marginal increases in speeds due to necessary copper repair work not being undertaken, a lack of backhaul, or just the plain under-provisioning of nodes.
Better (both "better than what we have now" and "better than the other mob")
Better than what we have now: See Faster.
Better than the other mob: This doesn't even need explaining. 93% FTTP/7% wireless is, and always was, the superior option.
Again, I fail to see how the MTM could have been better for this country in any way, shape or form. As with many infrastructure plans in this country, it was merely a battle of ideologies and a hate for "the other mob" coming to town with the better plan first.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Once police enter the premises they can search anything they want even what the ALP claim to be sealed documents, is the ALP hiding something?
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
You are full of it, the agency must comply with the terms and conditions of the warrant. They can not step outside that, no matter what load of rubbish you try to trot out to support your "friends".
I can pretty much guarantee that they won't return to a full fibre rollout.
No you can't.
...moved to other thread
No you can't.
Kingy's got a copy of ALP docs if he is so sure.... send the AFP out eh?
The challenge for Labor may well be to keep the NBN concept in govt control and stop it being handed over to Telstra. The real problem with what Turnbull has done is effectively corner NBN Co into a high risk position dependent on Telstra to survive. So many contracts for Greenfields, FTTN and HFC builds are via Telstra, HFC future is controlled by Telstra ...and Telstra have a $22B+ (?) facility waiting in the wings.
A less than successful build of FTTN (with associated bad publicity) not Telstra's fault of course, and unsatisfied customers supports the argument for NBN Co to be handed off, sold off, whatever. Telstra can make sure that happens with the level of control it has over NBN Co's success or failure.
Labor would have a huge challenge to stop that, there is nothing more sure that NBN Co will go if LNP remain in power and continue to hand it off by stealth.
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
and all the internal "proof" from nbn� documents may now be not able to be used till after the senate sits after the election
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
Finding whistle blowers was just a bonus
If the Libs are using section 70 of the crimes act for that, then we have skipped the "banana republic" and have descended into the realms of despots
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
The uphill battle isnt the LNP, as Christopher Pyne showed, they have no idea.
The uphill battle is the mainstream media. No matter what the Labor party comes out with, News Limited will attack it with full force.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Wrong on all counts.
No matter what the Labor party comes out with, News Limited will attack it with full force.
Labor don't need to make any NBN statements at all, News in particular invent stuff themselves even with anonymous 'experts' sometimes... and these often sound like they come straight off the LNP song sheet...or is it vice versa?
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
Finding whistle blowers was just a bonus
If the Libs are using section 70 of the crimes act for that, then we have skipped the "banana republic" and have descended into the realms of despots
I'm sure the ALP have backups of the work they have been working on. I just hope they can move on and expose it in time prior to the election.
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
bingo sir. occams razor applies here.
I'm sure the ALP have backups of the work they have been working on. I just hope they can move on and expose it in time prior to the election.
Of course they would � but not own up to it. Rewording and approximation of figures rather than direct quotes and who can prove a relationship back to original docs? There are ways around it..
Can just hear the likes of Turnbull, Cormann and Morrison goading and demanding the source of the NBN figures quoted by Labor and deriding no source quoted.... no-one wins particularly you and I nor the public in general
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims
If this was the primary aim, or one of several aims, it clearly demonstrates that the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
If so, then so much for their claim that broadband is not a significant issue this election. They wouldn't put themselves in such a vulnerable position if they didn't think it worth it. Therefore Labor should seize their advantage and run with it as long and as hard as they can.
Did anyone see Pyne's performance on Q&A last night when asked about the NBN? He was queried on the delays and cost blowouts that switching to the MTM has created. He gave the form response of "cheaper, faster, better" and the whole audience just laughed in his face. Albanese looked like he was about to crack up himself. I know that Q&A audiences usually aren't really that representative of the Australian public at large due to the mostly Labor/Greens voting audience, however, I think last night demonstrated that the jig really is up for the LNP. The public are starting to see through their crap and are having none of it. Even in my own personal experience, loyal LNP voters are beginning to understand that they were essentially scammed by Abbott and Turnbull in regards to the NBN. I've had to explain to a few people that they won't be getting any sort of increase in speeds or reliability any time soon. These people, myself included, live in the HFC footprint but are unable to be provisioned with an HFC service. I'm stuck with 6Mbps down/1Mbps up with a family of four, one of whom telecommutes. Usually they come out of the conversation feeling betrayed and outraged. Hopefully it's enough to change their votes.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
We must capitalise on this and get the NBN at the forefront of this election. Publicly decry the MTM and expose the LNP for the charlatans they are. Even if a handful people listen, it'll make a difference.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Clearly demonstrates that the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
Certainly is
so much for their claim that broadband is not a significant issue this election
Pyne's performance on Q&A last night
He gave the form response of "cheaper, faster, better" and the whole audience just laughed in his face
You missed the comment that Australia doesn't need really fast broadband � and he's innovation minister???? BIG fail there!! Problem is that conservative politics actually believes that and most of their Business brothers, sisters and cousins tell them that as well. They fear spending money to upgrade and fail to recognise the competitive edge they can get ie. don't see it as an investment....yet they don't flich the cost has gone from Labor's $43B to $56B+ for LNPs version --how come?. If they themselves don't understand it then they won't let anyone else move ahead with it.
loyal LNP voters are beginning to understand that they were essentially scammed by Abbott and Turnbull in regards to the NBN
All posts demonstrate why the Raid was undertaken � shut down any info that may not be favorable to current nbn regime and/or LNP govt...and maybe pick up Labor's NBN Plan in the process
Did anyone see Pyne's performance on Q&A last night
Yes, and also Albos. Both of them haven't a damn clue about the point of the NBN. The whole segment was an embarrassment.
Anything Labor comes out with will be better than the current MTM Fraudband.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Oh definitely :)
The MTM is the biggest vulnerability that the LNP have. I don't know what Labor is waiting for. They should be hammering this for all it's worth, just like Turnbull did against them before the last election. There are so many angles just begging to be used.
They do a little but nothing like as much as they could. If Albanese and Shorten don't even understand the point of universal fibre, and various talking heads when interviewed let points go through to the catcher instead of rebutting them, they are leaving their greatest tactical weapon behind.
The funny thing we would have been better off if both parties did nothing and if they never thought of the NBN. Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices. Other countries around the world have better broadband then us because the government kept there noses out. Most other Countires that have tired to introduce a NBN type have also fallen behind as it removed all of the little and large carriers wanting to build there own networks. Back in 2008 there was a lot of telecom type project canceled because the NBN was coming but never turned up. Labor or lib they both f-Ickes it up
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
This has been shown to be wrong. Telstra were not doing anything. The telecommunications policy had been botched for ten to 15 years before the NBN came on the table. Market forces would have left Australia in a continuing telecommunications black hole. Unfortunately MTM will not lift us out of the black hole.
. Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices
Telstra has been holding the pie for too long they put profits before progress, they let the copper and hfc network deteriorate.
We had a chance to finally catch up but the LNP put their grotty noses into it and we are back to square one.
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
I think we would all have Telstra ~20gig 4g for $100 a month, and regional could have dial-up. Public utilities should stay public as far as I'm concerned.
The original NBN would have helped pull this country out of the mines and become one of the world leaders in research, tech, education, etc ..... And put everyone (almost) on a level playing field, filling in most of the digital divide.
LNP's MTM has done the exact opposite.
These were the reasons the ALP wanted to create the NBN in the first place.
I don't see how we can even refer to what the LNP are giving us now as a "national broadband network".
I think we would all have Telstra ~20gig 4g for $100 a month, and regional could have dial-up. Public utilities should stay public as far as I'm concerned.
No we wouldn't. Without competition, Telstra's prices would remain unchallenged, and we'd all be paying out the nose.
One of the points of the NBN was to build infrastructure that wasn't controlled by a commercial monopoly.
and we'd all be paying out the nose.
Like we do now (with Telstra) on their network of bandaids and string?
One of the points of the ( original (I'll add that) NBN was to build infrastructure that wasn't controlled by a commercial monopoly.
Totally agree.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Even Albo didn't use that line on Q&A.
He seemed to say there was a Tasmania promise for 2016.. not going to be met
Full rollout complete by 2019.. now 2020
And didn't push back at all when it was said a FTTP rollout would stretch to 2024.
Agree that 'Pyne' doesn't have a clue about the NBN
Even Albo didn't use that line on Q&A.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't.
Full rollout complete by 2019.
The promise was for 25Mbps to all premises by the end of 2016.
We had project in the stages of planning then NBN came along and put a stop to it. No carrier is will to send to much money on infrusture as they know NBN can stomp on it. NBN has killed off all carriers wanting to build there own network not because it cheaper but because now there hands are tie and they are not allowed to compete with the NBN. Carriers .e.g. Tpg roll out was stopped? Why? Because they can do it cheaper. Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything. NBN there is still no sla type services for business. Labor fu.ked it up then the Libs came along and made a total mess of it too.
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
They didn't form decades so what makes you think they would now....
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
This is unlikely. Telstra didn't deploy adsl2 until accc forced them to allow other providers to install adsl2 equipment in their exchanges. Telstra only deployed HFC in response to the Optus rollout and stopped as soon as Optus stopped. Telstra wasn't going to deploy fttn unless the government chipped in a lot of money and were allowed to lock out other providers. Telstra has left their fixed network to rot so they can focus on their hugely profitable mobile network and continue overcharging for their slow bdsl services. Telstra 'only' make $2b/yr profit, they would not roll out a $50b network. Any competitors would be met with a repeat of the Optus overbuild, killing their investment.
Have a look at all nationwide infrastructure, roads, water pipes, electricity networks, the original copper network, they are always built by government. The original plan was on track to make a return, even with the problems it had. The current mtm is overpriced junk and is going to cost us more because the return is much less.
And didn't push back at all when it was said a FTTP rollout would stretch to 2024
That's because it's not something you can accurately calculate, putting a date on it just creates more enemy ammunition.
Honestly so long as you are creating the right infrastructure or policies for the medium/long term, time and money is almost irrelevant.
Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything.
Can you please specify the privately funded national infrastructure project you are comparing the NBN (or the MTM) to?
Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything.
Just like the electricity networks that had 60 billion spent gold plating then and forcing electricity prices to increase 500% in 10 years.
Oh wait they are owned by private enterprise.
The fact that Telstra has had 20 years to do something and nothing has happened shows private enterprise won't do it.
What state plan are you talking about?
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2016/s4468293.htm
NBN customers complain of poor connections and speeds years after being connected
Mr Jackson has sent PM a 16 page document detailing his dealings with Telstra and the NBN.
His case was continually referred between the two companies, and he claims he struggled to get them to cooperate with one other.
Mr Jackson took his case to his local MP and to the telecommunications ombudsman. On the 13th of this month, his internet service was finally restored.
Great collaboration team NBN!
Challenge to the likely incoming Federal Labor Government. What's your plan to minimise these sorts of problems occurring when you likely inherit the MTM?
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
'Market forces' would have seen the telcos competing with each other for the high population density areas � 'cherry-picking' the most profitable geographic locations.
"Market forces' would have seen the government pick up the tab for the rest of the country.
then the Libs came along and made a total mess of it
Totally agree with you on that point.
The fact that Telstra has had 20 years to do something and nothing has happened shows private enterprise won't do it.
Indeed they had all this time but they did a massive SFA, charge the consumers like wounded bulls just to have the privilege to put up with rubbish service in the fixed line services.
Again profits before progress and left us in the dark.
Telstra has had 20 years to do something and nothing has happened shows private enterprise won't do it.
Telstra's lack of investment and what appears to be very poor Risk Management is doing the Federal Opposition's a lot of favor's in decreasing their confidence in the competence of the Private Sector's competitive pressures to ensure that Australia's Infrastructure is at least reliable enough, let alone cheap or fast enough.
Telstra CEO Andy Penn says he�s reading the comments of customers frustrated with the company�s repeated internet failures.
The big danger here (not for Telstra), is that if the design of the MTM and strategies of NBN Co results in Telstra increasing it's market share and increasing the barriers to more easily changing or trying out new RSP's, the resulting lack of competitive pressure just adds as another disincentive for Telstra to invest in it's network to improve broadband services, as opposed to investing in acquiring new Australian customers, investing overseas, investing in non-Broadband products, investing in content.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
All the boardband reports you see from overseas and compair to here. Most if not all oversea country's cherry pick... Most countryies around the world once you get out of the city you get nothing.
Cherry pick first make it profitable then go bush I say. This model works well plus keeps isp's cashed up for up grades and profits help the bush roll out. It should. Not be done in reverse order. People in the bush have there benefits just like people in the city. How do you think ISP could afford there ADSL 2 roll out with no govement handouts?
At the end of the day it's going to be a network built with tax payers money which will be running at a loss when around 80% of the pollution really don't care if they are on ADSL or 4g or NBN. Just look at the NBN take up rates if it was so important the take up rate would be far higher. This comes back again to cherry picking. Labor was rolling NBN. In areas that had cable thus people did not want to change. Thus you had other areas whole estates stuck on old cmux with ADSL1 still missing out. If they did those areas first the take up rate would be much higher the media would be reporting what a great job every on is doing. But we want to put it in other areas were the need is not so great. Cherry pick I say. This is the whole reason why NBN is failing. No busniess going to market without a plan to sell there product to the masses without cherry picking.
Cherry pick first make it profitable then go bush I say.
Cherry picking is profitable for them so that is why they do it, when it suits but only to the degree and timing that it suits.
When they have all the ripe cherries, they stop because it is uneconomic to do more.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
It won't get broadband to the whole country and we will end up paying more
The dilemma that Federal Labor are likely to inherit is one of whether to defer, the HFC build in areas like mine where there is already uncongested 100/2 HFC from Optus for those of us not in MDU's, and to instead focus resources on getting next door suburb MDU's with crap and congested unuseable during peak hours mobile broadband from Optus/Telstra/Vodafone, no Optus HFC lead ins to the MDU's, and congested unusable during peak hours ADSL2+.
Federal Labor are going to have to come up with plan/policy for this and actually implement it solve this issue with underserved locations. No 6-12 months of delay. Just do it. Get fibre into the MDU basements wherever possible for starters. Either work with someone like TPG to do this or outlaw TPG from doing it. Collaborate. Just get it done and done quickly, without compromising on quality too much.
When they have all the ripe cherries, they stop because it is uneconomic to do more.
not uneconomic, just not super profitable
once upon time companies would charge the same price for an item in regional Austrlia as they would in the cities.
This meant they had to charge everyone slightly more, so the "cheap to supply areas" subsidised the "dear to supply areas"
Then along came the rise of accountants runing companies and the analysis of every person and itme into either a profit or a cost centre.
So they started to charge areas prices based on the cost of delivering it to that specific area which technically meant the "easy to supply area" got the item cheaper, but I don't think that really happened, just the company made more per item and difficult to supply areas were either charged more or not supplied at all.
And then we got corruption of this, the 2 major supermarkets charging different prices in different areas of the cities and in the case of fresh fruit and vegetables delivering different quality goods to those areas. Funny thing is, that fruit and vegetables were being charged more in the poorer suburbs for lesser quality goods than teh so called areas that could afford to pay more.
If you supply a product over a wide area,either state based or national, the price should be th esame everywhere and so should the delivery of service.
That is what is wrong with cherry picking
and speaking of fruit and vegeatables and even meat, why is it dearer in the rural areas of Australia where it is produced than in the cities, why, because of "cherry picking of supply"
If they did those areas first the take up rate would be much higher
Due to the mandatory cut over that take up rate is going to be high.
Example http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/sa/3BAC this service area has passed disconnection and has an uptake of 78%
http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/sa/2ARM is at 57%
Both of these areas are consistent with the national broadband penetration for the types of area they are once you take into account mobile broadband houses.
Cherry pick I say.
Cherry picking means entirely avoiding areas they deem unprofitable.
And no, the free market was not going to provide, Telstra said "we'll provide, but this is a stick up" Telstra wanted the government to give them funding to upgrade the national network and to be the sole provider who could sell through the government funded upgrades. This was never going to be acceptable.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
Cherry picking is a major problem because it creates large digital divide of "have's" and "have not's", especially when it comes to the suburbs. This has been proven with ISP's and their ADSL dslam rollout's, and the hfc cable rollouts with Telstra & Optus. The areas without any form of fixed line broadband (RIM port hell areas for example) have been simply ignored with no ISP's willing to spend the money on new infrastructure as it's not profitable enough for them to do so. This is the main reason why Labor created the NBN.
Most countryies around the world once you get out of the city you get nothing.
Cherry pick first make it profitable then go bush I say.
You have contradicted yourself. The big problem with cherry picking is that when you are using profit driven motives only to decide the outcome, those in the lower profit/no profit areas get nothing. This has been proven time and time again in Australia. It always comes down to government incentives to drive the investment in the bush, and even then, Telstra swallows the majority of the funding because they already have infrastructure in place to leverage off, which had also been funded by taxpayers.
This model works well plus keeps isp's cashed up for up grades and profits help the bush roll out.
It doesn't work well. That has been proven over many decades in Australia. It just creates a digital divide between the overserved city areas, and the regions and rural areas who get nothing. This was one of the reasons Labor proposed 93% FTTP � to get true ubiquity, and remove the digital divide as far as possible. Turnbull has undone that, and firmly re-entrenched the digital divide again.
How do you think ISP could afford there ADSL 2 roll out with no govement handouts? They didn't get government handouts, and so the investment didn't happen for a very very long time, if at all. You clearly don't live in a regional or rural area.
This is the main reason why Labor created the NBN.
Yup was 93% country will be fibre and the rest 7% fixed wireless.
Well that was the real NBN not the pathetic MTM.
Thanks LNP screwed everyone again,
uncongested 100/2 HFC from Optus
Uncogested and Optus do not belong in the same sentence � mine slows to 3mbs.
If they fixed it up so I could get a constant 30mbs (or 100) then I would be happy.
They need to fix those suburbs which do not have any broadband first � give them fttdp and allow an upgrade to fttp for $500-1000.
No busniess going to market without a plan to sell there product to the masses without cherry picking.
It is not efficient to prop up private enterprise by encouraging business to rely on cherry-picking and government handouts for their survival.
Nor is it efficient to use the AFP in a foolish, quixotic quest to locate allegedly "commercial in confidence" documents, regardless of the potential embarrassment the documents might cause to nbnTM, and/or nbnco's builders and contractors, and/or the Liberal-National "Market Forces" Coalition.
Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything.
Does that extend to roads, railways, water supplies etc?
Government project may be not be ideal, but private projects are only build when there is a profit to be made and that involves delivering minimal service for maximum cost, or not building at all.
I take the alternative view, the privatisation of Telsta was bungled, yes it was inefficient when it was a government monopoly. But it remained inefficient as a private monopoly and was holding back progress in Telecoms infrastructure as profit can be maximised by keeping the status quo and charging more.
What should probably have been done is to privatise the following as separate companies:-
1) Telstra wireless and mobile.
2) Telstra HFC and pay TV
3) Telstra retail � ADSL, home phone on CAN & reselling services for 1) & 2).
Provision of ADSL and phone services should have been kept as Telstra wholesale in government hands, it is the part of the float that was not attractive.... and could have easily morphed into the NBN with a bit if direction from the government.
Parts 1)..3) above mere probably the more attractive business and would have fetched a good price.
So the original ALP NBN proposal was a response bungled privatisation of Telstra.
The main mistake the ALP made was over selling the project and under estimating the ramp up.
It was getting there before the change of government, I can't remember the exact numbers but with a bit of process improvement we would probably have 80% coverages on FTTH NBN by now.
Especially if the ALP got smart and went with FTTB which they should have done from day 1.
TPG was cherry-picking the FTTB market because the major bungle was the NBN not rolling out FTTB as far and wide as possible ASAP.
Politics came into it as rolling out FTTB first would have been spun as giving the city priority over regional area, but that is they way it should have been done, as the NBN would have quickly obtained a mass of customers to help fund the rest of the rollout.
We had project in the stages of planning then NBN came along and put a stop to it. No carrier is will to send to much money on infrusture as they know NBN can stomp on it.
The carriers had the opportunity to bid for this infrastructure before the NBN was even invented. None of the bids fit the bill, and Telstra excluded itself from the process when Sol Trujillo played brinkmanship with the government (even in defiance of instructions from the Telstra board, who specifically asked him to deliver a competing bid).
They had their opportunity ... the NBN was the result of private enterprise not being able to do it.
So I wouldn't shed many tears about private enterprise wailing about the NBN coming along and "stomping" on them now. They had their shot ... they failed.
why is it dearer in the rural areas of Australia where it is produced than in the cities, why, because of "cherry picking of supply"
Accounting. We used to be charged freight from here to Sydney and back for flour that was grown here;milled here and sold here.
We had project in the stages of planning then NBN came along and put a stop to it. No carrier is will to send to much money on infrusture as they know NBN can stomp on it. NBN has killed off all carriers wanting to build there own network not because it cheaper but because now there hands are tie and they are not allowed to compete with the NBN. Carriers .e.g. Tpg roll out was stopped? Why? Because they can do it cheaper. Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything. NBN there is still no sla type services for business. Labor fu.ked it up then the Libs came along and made a total mess of it too.
The problem is that the carriers will only do the profitable bits. They'll pick and choose regions.
The NBN is to give everyone internet.
If it was just left to go, internet would be forever stuck the way it is now, some areas with good internet, some with average, and a lot with nothing.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
It does nothing to help deliver infrastructure to anything more than select areas in a country, and does plenty to hurt it.
How do you think ISP could afford there ADSL 2 roll out with no govement handouts?
http://whirlpool.net.au/news
http://whirlpool
etc.
etc.
At the end of the day it's going to be a network built with tax payers money which will be running at a loss when around 80% of the pollution really don't care if they are on ADSL or 4g or NBN.
Your figures bear no resemblance to reality.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
It does nothing to help deliver infrastructure to anything more than select areas in a country, and does plenty to hurt it.
Classic example of what's wrong, here:-
http://www.abc.net.au/
Oz telecommunication users get gouged by the commercial providers for profit, and our Gov't puts taxpayers funds towards the mobile network infrastructure.
Oz telecommunication users get gouged by the commercial providers for profit, and our Gov't puts taxpayers funds towards the mobile network infrastructure.
This amount is double the amount Labor will spend connecting those in Tasmania that should have had FTTP by now.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?. I know people on Whirlpool have a greater requirement for Internet services but in the greater scheme of things there is far much more important places the money should go. Hence the reason why I think both parties have got it wrong. The forced up take is only 53% and less then 25% of users take up the higher speeds most of these users would have been better off on the cable/ADSL service they were on. We have been stuck with Telstra for many years there is NO difference between them and NBN Co the different now there is another level of costs.
Thanks Steve
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money
It touches those issues you have just mentioned ... all of them. So when you attempt to put in in a hierarchy by asking whether it's more important ... it's a question that can't be answered. It can cover services in all of those sectors.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
I will tell you this, it is much more important than those damned submarines, what will they provide us?
And don't use the term defence, our only real defence is that were are allied with hte USA and to be honest, that has never been put to the test (thank heavens)
The original NBN was not an entertainment or gaming device, it was a full national multifaceted COMMUNICATIONS network, capabable of supporting many things.
The MTM is a dogs breakfast that will need to be replaced before it is finished, yet it is costing the same as wht FTTP was costed at.
MTM is the WASTE and the money WILL be spent on building it even when it cannot work as claimed
Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?
Having reliable ubiquitous communications infrastructure benefits every one of those fields, and as the NBN would have made a return on investment (and stimulated the economy) there would be more money available for spending on them.
We have been stuck with Telstra for many years there is NO difference between them and NBN Co the different now there is another level of costs.
That statement makes it clear that you don't understand Telstra at all. If you want to educate yourself, investigate the term "vertically integrated monopoly".
Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care
Healthcare, roads, and aged care are all positively impacted by a fast (up and down) and reliable national network infrastructure project.
I would strongly encourage you to read some of the information out there about telehealth. Here's one good one to get you started, Telehealth and the NBN.
Working from home has health benefits (I know this from personal experience, as I am lucky enough to have FTTP NBN and an employer that allows me to work from home every now and then) both for the person working from home and for everyone else on the road. Imagine if 10-15% of people were suddenly empowered to work from home. How much traffic would disappear from our congested roadways? What if 30% were able to work from home? Even if it was only 1-2 days a week.
Aged care, with a combination of remote monitoring, and remote nurse assisted diagnosis, the elderly would be able to stay in their own homes longer, we would have shorter waiting times at GPs. Telehealth can reduce the time people stay in hospital through the same techniques, leading to shorter hospital waiting times and more beds available.
Seems like the same old recyclable nonsense again.
Roads, hospitals etc etc etc
All important as well as a reliable communication and internet sector.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
Of course, your point ignores the the fact that the NBN is supposed to generate an ROI and therefore is off the budget and therefore (for the umpteenth time) the money for the NBN is *NOT* competing with other funding requirements like roads and healthcare!
Seriously man, this has been hashed over back when Labor first put this together...
The forced up take is only 53% and less then 25% of users take up the higher speeds most of these users would have been better off on the cable/ADSL service they were on.
The take up is 53% in a rural community. Which is consistent with the national broadband penetration for rural communities. You quite conveniently ignored the other example of Bacchus Marsh, which while is not a Melbourne suburb, is on the outer edges of Melbourne, and as one of the second release sites, has a 78% take up.
Also "would have been better off on the cable/ADSL service they were on" where the hell does that nonsense come from. Not saying that you are wrong, just that the statistic we are looking at has sweet flap all to do with if their existing services were capable of handing their needs.
s It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?
This is a fallacious argument. You stated that the private sector would have handled it, even though that is proven to not be the case. In fact, the private sector wanted to be given government money to improve broadband. It might seem like I'm talking about an entirely different thing here but I'm not. A government investment like the NBN, or the future fund, or any of the other investment portfolios, that is where the government invests money into a business and gets money back either in the short term or the long term do not rob money from all of those things you mentioned. In fact, all of those things you mentioned bar housing are "on budget" expenses for the federal government, which means they are reported in the budget bottom line, things like the NBN however are not. See the government isn't just handing money to NBN Co and saying go nuts, it is a loan. which means that money comes back, with interest, and then on privatisation the government is the one again that makes more money, just like Telstra did when it was sold off.
I know people on Whirlpool have a greater requirement for Internet services but in the greater scheme of things there is far much more important places the money should go.
A significant proportion of the country disagrees with you.
However, under the Labor NBN, it wasnt costing us anything, it was just borrowing money through the government at record low rates of interest. And paying it back (with a 7% rate of return). It was building a money making asset that would also significantly increase our GDP.
The Liberal NBN? Well, its not going to be able to make a rate of return above the interest, so its going to cost us. Both in paying for it (See hidden cvc charges) and from the government. Thanks to the shit internet it provides (We are now at 60 in the world and falling) � it wont have a noticeable effect on GDP either.
under the Labor NBN, it wasnt costing us anything, it was just borrowing money through the government at record low rates of interest. And paying it back (with a 7% rate of return). It was building a money making asset that would also significantly increase our GDP.
That's been totally lost on these naysayers.. It wasn't going to cost the taxpayer anything, to build the original nbn..
Seems like the same old recyclable nonsense again.
Roads, hospitals etc etc etc
Yes who'd think that a Government could walk and chew gum at the same time ehhh? Government's (well the public service actually) are quite adept at managing multiple programs. I won't even go to the issue that the taxpayer was not funding the NBN program.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
What some people don't see is the fact that a fast and reliable communications network is an essential service nowadays � it's right up there with water and electricity.
Impoverishing Australia's communication network in order to pour money into roads, healthcare, housing and aged care is short-sighted, to say the least.
Impoverishing Australia's communication network in order to pour money into roads, healthcare, housing and aged care is short-sighted, to say the least.
Roads, healthcare, housing and aged care are all just as important. Tax breaks to your mates and a fleet of submarines are not.
Roads, healthcare, housing and aged care are all just as important.
They are all important, but not 'essential services' such as water, electricity, and the communications network.
Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care ...
Ooo, aged care. My favourite. An FTTP service with four NTD ports would allow the government to have a reliable, separate service at an elderly person's home to support heat/motion monitoring and video contact that could keep that elderly person in their own home for much, much longer before they needed to move to an aged care facility. That could save the government billions.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
Actually a well developed NBN will reduce the cost of delivering those services, with cost reductions able to excede to cost of deployment.
Hospital at home projects that reduce the cost of providing health care, improve outcomes and are more family friedly. � the better projects are enabled by actual fast broadband on demand. (on demand, as opposed to a 6-12 week wait for connection)
-These programs reduce the costs by hundreds per DAY.
Work from home � even if only 1 in 20 of us could do this 1 day per week, this would produce a massive reduction in congestion. (as well as the business continuity planning benefits, cost reductons, flexibility etc)
Aged care � Stay at home programs, with fall sensors, GP telehealth, telemetry. None of which is viable over FTTN � too unreliable according to nbn. These programs (inc Vic pilot in FTTP area) do reduce the costs to the Govt.
So the question is really, Can we afford NOT to install a FTTP based NBN, with our ageing population?
So the question is really, Can we afford NOT to install a FTTP based NBN, with our ageing population?
How is any of that going to keep foxtel profitable?
An FTTP service with four NTD ports would allow the government to have a reliable, separate service at an elderly person's home to support heat/motion monitoring and video contact that could keep that elderly person in their own home for much, much longer before they needed to move to an aged care facility.
My aunt is going home today � she fell in a shopping centre and broke on or more bones, so had an operation and a few nights in hospital. Because she lives on her own and the district nurse is only able to come around once a day to check on her she had to spend another week in hospital, then another week or so in a respite centre at the taxpayer's expense. If she had FTTP she probably could have gone home soon after the operation, with remote monitoring and alerts if she had another fall... cost to the taxpayer for that would be maybe a couple of hundred dollars instead of potentially tens of thousands of dollars.
I know people on Whirlpool have a greater requirement for Internet services
That is a common misconception...the folks on Whirlpool also have a far greater insight into what the world will require in communication technology going forward. If we could deploy fibre in a year or less, there would be much less passion about it (grumbling yes, but much less passion). However, keep in mind that all over the world, local internet connectivity is changing at an astonishing pace, and most of the planet will have access to 1000/1000 speeds by 2020 (in 3.5 years).
We are going in exactly the opposite direction at a time when we desperately NEED a new source of revenue (which the NBN could provide).
It is a proven fact that each time you double the average internet speed of a country, you increase their GDP by .3% (in Australia, that equates to ~$5 Billion/year). But, if you double it again, you increase it again...
Going from our current average of 6Mbps to 100Mbps is just over 4 doublings (increase of $20 Billion/ year in GDP?)
How is any of that going to keep foxtel profitable?
They'll just have to move to a streaming model, similar to Netflix, Presto, and Stan.
Just posted in the Coalition thread:
guys i was in NBN forum with Gai brodtman mp and stephen jones mp , bill shorten will announce the nbn policy very soon
I expect some time in the next week.
How your crappy internet speed could decide election
http://www.news.com.
Just realised that was yesterday's... may have already been posted.
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas. I do know a little more then you might think.
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services as its yet to give the end user SLA's times. Maybe in a few more years this might change but now its a very hard sell. Just last week we have a customer In Toowoomba largish business that has a fibre break and they have not been given at ETA. The same company has a 20/20 MPLS services they were looking at cancelling but after this outage its total made them rethink. Yes having reliable internet is great but at what cost? Funny how you can get SLA on PSTN type services and other copper feed services not yet on NBN enabled Greenfields type sties. So before any says its critical for business look at the big picture most businesses have plans around it NOT working..... For the amount of money we are paying we could be getting better a lot better.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas
Which is nice, but there are a ton of folks in this forum that work directly with e-health...they all say your wrong.
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services
That I know from personal experience is quite incorrect...I design networks and systems for folks in SMB, and without exception they are clamouring for the NBN. You may mean Enterprise...
Just last week we have a customer In Toowoomba largish business that has a fibre break and they have not been given at ETA
Fibre breaks are almost always fixed much faster than copper breaks...it is far easier to find the break with fibre.
BTW, the SLA is with the RSP, not NBN Co...
Edit:I should say that I am speaking of the FTTP NBN...FTTN is not really very reliable at all and most are still quite sceptical (as they should be)
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
Yes, it will, without doubt.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas.
Then you know the value of reliable ubiquitous communication, so why are you against it?
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services as its yet to give the end user SLA's times.
That's entirely down to the current management � business services were on the roadmap before the election, but are obviously pointless on inherently unreliable FTTN.
Yes having reliable internet is great but at what cost?
Less than unreliable FTTN, and with a return on investment.
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
For god sake. Get off the healthcare/roads bullcrap comparisons mate.
NBN is a self-paying investment, the money gets paid back and then it turns into a cash cow. It's nothing like healthcare.
The fact you're comparing these services shows a complete lack of economic clue. Whether its 50 billion or 70 billion, it makes no damn difference longterm.
Solutions and spending for Healthcare will go on forever, there will be no end to costs like that. It's not a revenue stream. And the introduction of technologies such as NBN just reduces Healthcare costs if anything, along with less reliance on the daily highway commutes on those expensive roads into the city.
It's not a revenue stream.
Unless you a specialist of one of the Colleges. Then it's a bloody goldmine!
BTW, the SLA is with the RSP, not NBN Co...
The RSP cannot give a SLA that is not supported by the NBNCo.
This issue was reported years ago. For example ...
ISP iiNet has lampooned NBN Co for setting the bar too low on restoration times for network faults ...
http://www.itnews.com.a
The fact you're comparing these services shows a complete lack of economic clue. Whether its 50 billion or 70 billion, it makes no damn difference longterm.
Well that's a contradiction within its self.... How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way? This means there is less to go around and pay other bills and bring new schools services online. Money does not come from nowhere. I don't think its up to governments to pay for this type of infrastructure. There job is to change and make legislation to make it easier for public enterprise to fund it. E.g. work with councils and other utilities for shared space and timing of projects so the same bit of road is not dug up twice.
Look at what we have got... Governments prove time and time again they fail with big projects as the don't have the guts to make the hard choices.
Fibre breaks are almost always fixed much faster than copper breaks...it is far easier to find the break with fibre.
BTW, the SLA is with the RSP, not NBN Co...
Edit:I should say that I am speaking of the FTTP NBN...FTTN is not really very reliable at all and most are still quite sceptical (as they should be)
Totally wrong there is NO SLA as of yet. The RSP has no control. Customer has an NBN issue turning around time that we see with out customers 2-3 weeks. Telstra does a better job fixing PSTN services 2-4 days at most. I can only tell what I see everyday. I am sure NBN Co will get better as they will have to as people will start jumping up and down like they are with low speeds due to very poor pricing structure of CVC.
This means there is less to go around and pay other bills and bring new schools services online
No, it really doesn't. If the money that was being invested into NBN Co were used for anything on budget it would be purely deficit. You know, that big bad evil that Abbott introduced us to in 2013 ;)
The money invested into NBN Co isn't from the tax coffers but rather from Commonwealth bonds.
Money does not come from nowhere
Correct, in this case it comes from the sale of bonds, which is then paid back by NBN Co.
I don't think its up to governments to pay for this type of infrastructure.
Its this or nothing. Even in the magical free market world, they wanted regulatory holidays and direct funding from commonwealth funds. That is to say, not a loan, not an investment, but straight up "heres a bag of free money" to do anything about it.
Governments prove time and time again they fail with big projects as the don't have the guts to make the hard choices.
So I guess the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Snowy hydro, the sewage network, water network, Telstra's copper line and HFC networks, and the electricity grid are all failures? I left the opera house off this list because it is one project that ostensively could be called a failure. Some of those other projects were failures at the time, but you wouldn't consider them failures now. Hell the HFC and PTSN networks that NBN Co are now acquiring were built in government hands. Telstra was still a GBE at the time the rollout started, and the PTSN network was entirely government funded, but the more important ones in that list are the sewage, water, and power networks. These utilities were all big government projects.
I left the opera house off this list because it is one project that ostensively could be called a failure.
Well it probably hasn't made its money back in ticket sales, and its acoustics probably leave a little to be desired, but by being brave and bold with the architecture, the building has become an international icon and has no doubt generated millions of dollars in indirect tourism revenue.
This is precisely what the NBN detractors don't get (or get, but wilfully ignore) � the NBN (and by that, I mean a proper Fibre based NBN) will generate millions, if not billions of dollars of extra economic revenue for the government through increased productivity and strong global competitiveness. So much of the NBN FUD relies on simplistic models of revenue and short sighted notions of what sort of broadband requirements will be needed in the future � it makes me want to scream!!!
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas.
Such as ...? Which ones are you proud of...?
So much of the NBN FUD relies on simplistic models of revenue and short sighted notions of what sort of broadband requirements will be needed in the future � it makes me want to scream!!!
More correctly cost to build is the only criteria really where in reality the discussion should be what is the cost of NOT building NBN FTTP compared to FTTN.
As for Sydney Opera House could anyone put a price on the marketing value it has generated over the years as an architectural icon (world wonder) and all the money tourists have spent to come to Australia and experience it. What would have been the cost to Australian businesses to not have built it.
So I guess the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Snowy hydro, the sewage network, water network, Telstra's copper line and HFC networks, and the electricity grid are all failures?
Sydney Harbour Bridge
Cost: $4.2 million or 6.25 million Australian pounds ($A13.5 million)
I found two different figures so I've shown both.
Ongoing Costs: The annual maintenance costs are approximately $5 million. (Paid for by ongoing revenue.)
Outstanding Debt: Paid off in 1988
Revenue: The initial toll for a car was 6 pence and a horse and rider was 3 pence. Today the toll is around A$3.30 for cars for a southbound trip and it is free to go northbound. (I imagine that there is probably ongoing revenue from the company running the bridge climbs.)
Benefits:
- Completed in 1932, the construction of the bridge � known locally as "The coathanger" � was an economic feat as well as an engineering triumph.
- Prior to the bridge being built, the only links between the city centre in the south and the residential north were by ferry or by a 20 kilometre (12� mile) road route that involved five bridge crossings.
- In 1932, the average annual daily traffic was around 11,000 and now it is around 180,000 vehicles per day.
Ahhh the short-sightedness of the LNP with the MTM. I wonder how many times the Federal LNP have tried to sell off the Sydney Harbour Bridge without realising that it belongs to NSW. Mind you the Federal LNP would have undervalued it on eBay as the LNP have always thought the Sydney Harbour Bridge only has one lane each way.
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding. Some good point mentioned before and I will take them onboard. A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas. It's good to have a chat and not agree on everything :)and not take it personally. Once that happens you have lost the fight. I just think it could have been better planed and costed.
The Drum tonight unsolicited discussion about Internet for the bush by non ALP and LNP pollies
Steve78 you may be interested re rural health
go to 14.45
Also on iview
Australia Votes: Regional Leaders' Debate: Discussing the issues facing Regional Australia will be Nationals' Leader Barnaby Joyce, the ALP's Joel Fitzgibbon & Greens Leader Richard Di Natale. Hosted by Chris Uhlmann live from Goulburn, NSW.
NBN is discussed from the 31st min mark.
http://iview.abc.net.au/prog
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding. Some good point mentioned before and I will take them onboard. A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas.
People like to trivialise the NBN by saying it's just for streaming movies and TV � and to some extent they're right. It will most definitely be used for that. Netflix and co aren't going anywhere. But it will also be used for a myriad of other purposes � and we need to make sure that we have a network that can sustain the bandwidth for all of the above without hitting bottlenecks. Otherwise, what's the bloody point of spending $50B+ on it? If I can't do my work in a timely fashion because half my street is watching Netflix, then it's money wasted IMHO...
I just think it could have been better planed and costed.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, it can make anyone look wise. :)
I think even Mike Quigley and Conroy would agree that some things could have been done better. But if you look at what was achieved, it was a pretty impressive feat.
Just because the FTTP could have been improved is not a reason to completely change direction to a new policy (MTM). The LNP should have improved on the original plan not changed it completely.
Once politics get involved no one wins.... its all about scoring points
Once politics get involved no one wins.... its all about scoring points
And what I mean about large government projects not going right.
Should I mention desalination plants water grid, east link. In the last few years large expensive projects have not been costed nor gone well costing the tax payer plenty. Snowy river and other big projects was built with non Union slave labour very unsafe environments very surprised labor would even want them acknowledged. I think you might even 58% of snowy hydro was sold by nsw and vic governments also was introduced by the Libs and nats after ww2 using cheap European labour. Do you think this is going to happen with NBN?
People like to trivialise the NBN by saying it's just for streaming movies and TV � and to some extent they're right.
The NBN is not about streaming movies, but it does make sound business sense to use streaming movies to help pay for it.
A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas
Just to add...according to every modern global economic model, when you double the average broadband for a country, you add .3% to the GDP each time. That formula has proven (so far) to be like Moore's Law, it just keeps going...
In Australia, .3% of GDP is currently ~ $5 Billion/year.
If you double the broadband average here 4 times (say from the current 6Mbps to 96Mbps) you add (theoretically) ~$20 Billion/year to the GDP.
Edit: Imagine what getting the NBN on gigabit will do...
Also, since it's a GLOBAL economy, you have to look at what the rest of the world is doing. According to Deloitte, the vast majority of the homes in the world will have access to Gigabit by 2020...
Hell the HFC and PTSN networks that NBN Co are now acquiring were built in government hands.
And this is the big point the anti-NBN supporters and conservative trolls are forgetting when they start waffling on with their usual rubbish. Both networks were built and paid for while in our hands over a long period of time. The NBN should be no different and is why this network should be built properly the first time.
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
Actually yes.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas. I do know a little more then you might think.
Good to hear. Were you involved in the trials of the home oncology project a while ago? Lots of ISDN links. Of course customers who required urgent treatment were not candadates, as you can imagine. Project findings � great for patients, great for budget. Lead time and reliability of network were a problem.
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services as its yet to give the end user SLA's times. Maybe in a few more years this might change but now its a very hard sell.
Have a read of PulseIT. You may want to revise your position.
Having worked in both vendor and provider space for healthcare, I can tell you that healthcare vendors are interested (they are SMB with a distribuited field network), as it improves reliability and throughput. With increasing use of presence in local/home offices, and integration of phone (voip and mobile) with crm/erp it is even more important to ensure network availability to small office structures.
And a well timed document:
http://www.pulseitm
Healthcare providers try to be technology agnostic. FTTN has raised issues with some devices that use dialup (and acoustic!) methods to return data. These work find with the Uni-V port ATA, and even some of the RSP provisioned services. Even nbn admit that FTTN is not suitable.
The solution for this is to move to 3G/4G. Only adds $50-100 per month to the bill per device for the provider to pay.
the amount of money we are paying we could be getting better a lot better
When the current govt ministers all trott out the 'it is an expensive entertainment network' line, what do you expect. Even our so called 'Innovation' minister does not see a need for fast broadnband in Australia.
Just to add...according to every modern global economic model, when you double the average broadband for a country, you add .3% to the GDP each time. That formula has proven (so far) to be like Moore's Law, it just keeps going...
In Australia, .3% of GDP is currently ~ $5 Billion/year.
You may want to visit ABS to get the correct GDP figure. Your numbers are a bit low.
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding
Have a read of what IBM thought labor's nationwide FTTP would do for Australia's economy and how it would essentially restructure almost every industry. Ultimately they think it'd be worth 1 trillion dollars per year to our economy by 2050.
Once greedy neo-liberals politics get involved no one wins Australia loses.
Fixed that for you.
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way?
None, since by definition an investment is not a gift.
There job is to change and make legislation to make it easier for public enterprise to fund it.
What is this "public enterprise" you're speaking of? Do you mean a self-funding GBE like the NBN which merely requires seed investment from the government to get going?
Look at what we have got... Governments prove time and time again they fail with big projects as the don't have the guts to make the hard choices.
I'm still waiting for you to specify which privately funded national infrastructure project you're comparing the NBN (or the MTM) to.
Totally wrong there is NO SLA as of yet.
Blame Turnbull and Morrow who keep delaying its release, presumably because admitting that FTTP is reliable and FTTN is not wouldn't help their election chances.
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding.
Just trolling you mean.
A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas.
It will / would have increased productivity throughout the economy.
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way?
Well that's definitely going to happen if the nbn goes back on budget. And that's quite possible if it can't raise private equity and increase returns . Switching to mtm has reduced the resale value by half and the revenues from 7% to 3.5%.
The only portion of the mtm making high returns is the Fibre.
A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas
Only some specific areas? The Internet is having a profound impact in almost every industry on earth. It's also the premier delivery system for any services based economy. Without exaggeration, the Internet is the single biggest productivity driver since industrialisation.
Totally wrong there is NO SLA as of yet.
http://www.internode.on.net/business/internet/nbn/sla/
Not great, but it does exist...
I should add that it was part of the Labor NBN, but the Coalition appears to have changed that...
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
Internet is the single biggest productivity driver since industrialisation.
Just like the automobile once was for the elite and now just look its for the masses all kinds of shapes and sizes and configurations and prices.
Same with the internet it started off small and now its a global revolution.
Also just full of bandwidth clotting trolls, spam and adverts.
Once called the superhighway now its getting close to a digital traffic jam.
The NBN was meant to at least that some way alleviate.
The MTM just brings back the traffic jams.
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way?
Thanks to the LNP we will get to find out.
Tax breaks to your mates and a fleet of submarines are not.
In fact little more than sound bites...no substance other than announcements in tax breaks and no detail other than number of subs matches the lack of substance to Turnbull's promises for NBN....ready to go became nothing for 2 � years and when the moment arrives nothing but trouble and failures. Fully costed promise turned $29B cost into $56+B. Stopping spending has resulted into highest level of spending ever and the so called debt and deficit election slogan has been tripled....but that is not a problem.
Where is the real substance to nbn MTM??? slower, dearer and later.... OH! what could have been, we may well lament.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas. I do know a little more then you might think.
And I design remote access solutions for Queesland State Government, and I can tell you that a FTTH NBN would have been a godsend to me ... SLA's be damned. I'm not turning this into a urination contest here by the way, just letting you know that I understand your concerns better than most.
You won't get SLA's for consumer grade connections anyway, but that doesn't stop business from using consumer grade ADSL right now for some connections. It comes down to money (which if you want SLA's the business forks out more and pays for a business grade connection) versus percentage uptime (which saves money, but loses the SLA's). So why not use fibre instead of copper?
Consider that fibre as a medium on it's own is a lot less susceptible to distance and EMI than copper, the more fibre out there makes for an optimal experience for end users that I simply can't get anywhere else. If I was PM for a day (or however long it would take) I'd reinvest every drop of profit that the FTTH network would have made into pushing fibre out to as close to 100% as possible (it's nice to dream I guess *grin*).
I'm not talking about the MTM by the way, I'm talking about the previous FTTH, which was on track to make a better return than the MTM, and even better, if it went above the 7% threshold, NBNCo would have been forced to lower wholesale prices to the ISP's, who in turn would hopefully have passed some of that on to customers.
So before any says its critical for business look at the big picture most businesses have plans around it NOT working
Here's the thing though ... with regards to those plans ... it's up to us, the designers of these solutions to take that into account. The network traffic isn't the goal here, think bigger, the applications to the end users are. So if you're going to leverage the NBN, have a plan for critical services to go down.
Just because a service doesn't have an SLA doesn't mean that the service isn't fit for purpose. It's our job as architects to provide solutions. It might mean the apps aren't fit for purpose. In which case, you change architectures if you got that luxury, or you change apps. We can't guarantee 100% uptime on anything, but if you want 5 x 9's reliability out in the regions, you aren't going to get it realistically. Does that mean no solutions can be designed for that scenario? Of course not.
This is the crux of the discussion where new applications could be deployed over the NBN. These are the opportunities that lower the barrier to entry (thanks to fibre's advantages as a medium) for applications and architectures to be created to introduce new services such as the ones you gave examples of to (until the 2013 election) 93% of Australian premises. The hybrid MTM keeps that bar high ... no amount of turd polishing can make it even approach the longevity/scalability of fibre from the start.
That is worth taking a few years longer for ... because in a little while, we'll all be dead ... but the same medium (fibre) will still be serving those after us. If it's copper, we'll see this puppet show again in our lifetime, and some of us didn't want to see it even once.
An FTTP service ........ could keep that elderly person in their own home for much, much longer before they needed to move to an aged care facility. That could save the government billions.
All part of the $20+B pa contribution to GDP that only FTTP could deliver...all forgone by Turnbull's failed promise of MTM
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way
If you are talking Turnbull's nbn then, forever, IF it continues to support it. The market will not fund FTTN MTM as it is too high a risk and correctly viewed as a sunk asset in a commercially short time frame for such an asset. FTTN MTM can't achieve sufficient ROI so most likely the only way to continue it is for govt taxpayer funds to continue ...forever?
If you are talking NBN FTTP then with the apparent ROI from what FTTP has been built the NBNV1 projections would have been achieved if not beaten ie. govt support finished earlier and the market borrowing start sooner or less required.
one thing that Labor need to start screaming from teh rooftops is that the NBN under them was not on the budget books.
The Government went guarantor on loans to NBN which were raised from the private sector.
These funds were raised by bonds in which the Government cannot invest, so all the money came from the private sector.
Just because a service doesn't have an SLA doesn't mean that the service isn't fit for purpose
+1 for your entire post...truly well written Murdoch!
I think even Mike Quigley and Conroy would agree that some things could have been done better. But if you look at what was achieved, it was a pretty impressive feat.
Proof is in the pudding � the only parts of NBN that actually work and earn good revenue � as planned and forecast � are what NBN V1 put in place, and Turnbull ironically claims the praises for achieving that without having contributed to that part of the build yet has done everything he can to slow its success down and destroy it.
ou may want to visit ABS to get the correct GDP figure. Your numbers are a bit low.
Viditors figures are about right for 2013 so you are quite correct in today's figues it would be significatnly higher...~$25Bpa (?)
Switching to mtm has reduced the resale value by half and the revenues from 7% to 3.5%.
I am reasonably sure NBN Co have mentioned down to 2.5%
Without exaggeration, the Internet is the single biggest productivity driver since industrialisation.
Damned right!! So why is Turnbull destroying the best opportunity this country has had with FTTP to maximise innovation, productivity and jobs....?
Just because a service doesn't have an SLA doesn't mean that the service isn't fit for purpose.
Unlike the Copper and HFC networks.
Snowy river and other big projects was built with non Union slave labour
"slave labour" � I didn't realise that slave labour was used for the Snowy river project. Please do tell more.
The NBN is not about streaming movies, but it does make sound business sense to use streaming movies to help pay for it.
I've expressed my dislike of using analogies for describing the NBN but does the Government only build roads for persons travelling to work, for business and industry to use or do they build roads for individuals going to the movies, other such 'entertainment' and personal use and persons travelling to work, for business and industry?
Another suggestion for the Labor NBN Policy.
Announce that if elected that all those Turnbull commissioned post 2013 Federal Election Strategic Review's and CBA are to be updated within 6 weeks of the Federal Election
1. By the original writers.
2. By at least 2 independent Consulting firms
3. One other independent consulting form nominated by the Federal Liberal Party
The results of all of them to be publicly published and compared 6 weeks after the Federal Election. Along with a summary of the changes from the original reviews.
Then a further 3 consulting firms will peer critique all of the above within 4 weeks and these critiques will again all be publicly published immediately to assist the new Government with refining and further developing it's NBN 3.0 plans.
Popcorn to the SuperMax time folks.
Another suggestion for the Labor NBN Policy.
How about the ALP and the LNP work together to reach a bi-partisan position for the future rollout of the NBN to take the politics out of it. Base the NBN rollout going forward on the advice of expert telecommunication engineers.
Yeah .... I know .... I'm dreaming.
it will never happen cause the liberal party wanna protect foxtel by rolling out outdated technology , so when u get slow internet worse than adsl then you will be forced to use foxtel TV !
liberal party wanna keep the copper network for another three decades
As much as I wish there could be a bipartisan consensus, I very much doubt that it could be possible, and would probably be undesirable, to my way of thinking.
The reason is that, for the LNP to agree, the project would have to be watered down to such an extent that it would very much resemble the MTM. And I don't want Labor to lose their ticker and cave into the MTM for expediency's sake.
I just don't believe that anything will convince the LNP elite to lift their game to aim for something that is actually good.
So why is Turnbull destroying the best opportunity this country has had with FTTP to maximise innovation, productivity and jobs....?
Because with a TA led LNP he had to come up with an idea that was not FTTP.
With a MT led LNP he has to keep selling the same tripe so it is not obvious he spent 20Bn of taxpayers money for a personal power trip.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
The reason is that, for the LNP to agree, the project would have to be watered down to such an extent that it would very much resemble the MTM.
You're right there will not be bipartisan agreement and the LNP position you suggest would not be acceptable which is why I said:
Base the NBN rollout going forward on the advice of expert telecommunication engineers.
But doesn't change my original view that:
Yeah .... I know .... I'm dreaming
Sorry Javelyn, I missed your point when I wrote my piece.
Has anyone noticed that Labor do not appear to have a current NBN policy?
Has anyone noticed that Labor do not appear to have a current NBN policy?
No, it hasn't been announced.
Bill Shorten says its an election issue for him, so we will wait for the announcement.
Anything else is noise.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I missed your point when I wrote my piece
No apologies required ... I feel like we're all old friends from way back here.
How about the ALP and the LNP work together to reach a bi-partisan position for the future rollout of the NBN to take the politics out of it.
I've said before it needs a non-partisan approach. The LNP have shown themselves to be driven by ideology and paid consultants (shills).
Base the NBN rollout going forward on the advice of expert telecommunication engineers.
Yeah, for the reasons above I think this would be the approach, constitute an expert and respected committee that met regularly and took public submissions and/or hearings.
The panel could run for the life of NBNco, even after construction had completed. This would then be able to ensure the GBE was responsive to market requirements, Which is a criticism of public organisations.
The panel should have reps for productivity commission, industry experts, community reps, education, medicine etc.
If a good mix of people could be found for such a steering committee it would devalue the political BS that comes from the politicians.
I've said before it needs a non-partisan approach
constitute an expert and respected committee that met regularly and took public submissions and/or hearings
The panel could run for the life of NBNco, even after construction had completed
If a good mix of people could be found
Sorry but I don't understand why such complexity needs to be added to the farce the NBN has become.
The reality is the original NBN has demonstrated in the field it works, works very well delivering what it was planned to do and the alternative is proving to be a dog (my apologies to dogs). Telstra have had more internet problems since FTTN MTM started to be built than for a decade or more....just get on with NBN V1 and do it right...the rest of the world is and so should Australia...the cost of not doing NBN V1 far outweighs the up front build cost ......no need to complicate a successful Plan
This is potentially what the alp could do � I'm not sure what they will announce though.
1 � finish current areas being built with fttn � even offering a cheap upgrade to fttp.
2 � upgrade hfc to docsis 3.1
3 � stop fttn where they can and change to either fttd or fttp (500 upgrade fee from fttdp to fttp?)
I'm not sure what they Willem announce, but I'm thinking fttdp could be their policy if they don't go fttp.
What if this entire thread was copied and emailed to both Major parties so they could see what real people, some of whom who actually know what they are talking about think and want from the NBN then we might get somewhere.
anyway I will grab my coat and turn the lights off on the way out...
know what they are talking about think and want from the NBN then we might get somewhere.
LOL � why would we need someone who isn't a total luddite building this once in a life time network?
Why bother taking politics out of it and doing what is best by the country?
I am pissed at the LNP � They have wrecked it � not only wrecked it but it may mean this project has to be bought on budget because it won't make a return.
I'm also angry that they protected an old man's business (foxtel) instead of doing what's best for the country.
The ALP can announce whatever they want and it will be a better policy � hell, not doing anything will be a better policy.
2 � upgrade hfc to docsis 3.1
DOCSIS 3.1 looks like itwil not be the panacea that Cable Labs and the HFC providers had hoped. There seem to be a great deal of difficulty in trying to implement it in the field when compared to the lab, there have been linked articles in teh HFC thread I think.
Also it seems there are no 3.1 modems being commercially produced yet.
Cable providers in the USA (maybe not all) seem to be changing over to Fibre and ditching their existing HFC networks.
Maybe spend te bare minimum on the HFC areas where ecconomic and then come back and do FTTP, but otherwise don't waste money on it
Maybe spend te bare minimum on the HFC areas where ecconomic and then come back and do FTTP, but otherwise don't waste money on it
Get them to a stable 30/100mbs and then upgrade adsl to fttp, fttn to fttp and then hfc to fttp.
The ALP can announce whatever they want and it will be a better policy
I'll reserve judgement until I actually see what the policy is.
Maybe spend te bare minimum on the HFC areas where ecconomic and then come back and do FTTP, but otherwise don't waste money on it
I think that makes sense. Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
They could do something similar with FTTB/dp for MDUs. Just have the option to stick a VDSL device where the copper enters the building and move on. Come back later and do FTTP.
The most important thing imo is to stop FTTN.
Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
Agree.. and I hope that's the alp policy objective..
PS , Tailgator, miss your input mate..
What if this entire thread was copied and emailed to both Major parties
It would be more than a safe bet they have been for a very long time ....noticed a couple of posters heavily and nonsensically flooding it with purely partisan posts....perception management? Whirpool is a very critical source for political parties on many topics, NBN being high on the list.
I think that makes sense. Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
DOCSIS 3.1 looks like itwil not be the panacea that Cable Labs and the HFC providers had hoped. There seem to be a great deal of difficulty in trying to implement it in the field when compared to the lab, there have been linked articles in teh HFC thread I think.
I think the main problem is the cost. As far as I have read, apart from the node splits required, almost all the active equipment has to be replaced. It's not so much an upgrade as an entire overhaul of the network. When you combine that with infill into the areas that Telstra and Optus missed in the rollout, the chance of HFC with DOCSIS 3.1 being more cost effective over the medium term than FTTP is very low.
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
Wasted money I agree, after all they are supposed to nominally have 100Mb/s aren't they � bit like FTTN promises promises...
IMO there is oly one way to go full FTTP pretty much in the order mention a few posts ago but leave HFC to end ... just work around the FTTN MTM mess.... the KISS principle.
It would be more than a safe bet they have been for a very long time ....noticed a couple of posters heavily and nonsensically flooding it with purely partisan posts....perception management? Whirpool is a very critical source for political parties on many topics, NBN being high on the list.
Yes, both parties know about this thread, and one side has been extremely active in trying to shift groundswell with a number of shill accounts. Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
both parties know about this thread
Remember those days pre-Liberal when NBN were on these forums answering questions.. ahh the good old days. Now whirlpool.net.au would be blocked from their server
Sorry but I don't understand why such complexity needs to be added to the farce the NBN has become.
Huh? The complexity has come from he purely partisan way that the current goverment has handled the since winning goverment.
What I was suggesting is one way that decoupled the influence partisan politics had over the project. Essentially two politicians direct NBNco by way if the SoE with nothing standing between common sense and the common good and their self interest.
What I suggested wasn't particularly complex, it is certainly easy to understand. Get a representative expert panel to steer NBNco. Mist likely through the SoE process.
Unless you think NBNco can turn the MTM ship around and complete the NBN in the next term of goverment you will need a better plan than "just build it".
That was the original plan and look what happened on the change of goverment.
Unless you think NBNco can turn the MTM ship around and complete the NBN in the next term of goverment you will need a better plan than "just build it".
Apologies cw, I wasn't being critical, just suggesting to just get on with it. The time it would take to get a steering committee set up and then put a plan together, and all the flak that would draw politically (the Oz would have a birthday...) is what I call complexity.
As for bi-partisanship, I only see Turnbull as having any capability of that on the LNP side and he totally squibbed any opportunity for anyone to believe he could. Waste of time IMO sadly.
NBN V1 was totally designed in overall build and a number of areas were detail designed so unless that has been destroyed under LNP reign there is a quick start possibility. That would buy the time to sort the longer term nitty gritties out � no delay dare I say sooner , faster and I have no doubt cheaper than nbn MTM on every measure....
Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
I've noticed this as well � maybe the funding ran out?
NBN V1 was not perfect, however it was a lot better than V2.
V3 should learn from the mistakes of the past and be aiming to finish it in 10 years � FTTP for 93% then look at the other 7%/invest in more sattelites/other technologies to give better internet to rural communities.
We should be aiming for 50mbs minimum in 3 years and 1gbs by 2030 � these speeds are available overseas at the moment.
Other countries are laughing at us.
Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
They are probably reloading.
We should be aiming for 50mbs minimum in 3 years and 1gbs by 2030 � these speeds are available overseas at the moment.
Other countries are laughing at us.
In fact any build for FTTP can now do 100/40 and be easily upgraded to 1GB with little work at each end I believe � no infrastructure requirements at all. No need for 50Mb/s min.
If HFC if treated by an NBN FTTP V3 as Turnbull claimed it with his 2016 promise ie. do nothing to it because it already is supposed to do better than 25Mb/s but claim it as part of his build, only ~ 2/3rds of the 12M services identified in NBN V1 need to be 'built'. About 2M FTTP have been done to date and that was at a 40% rate compared to NBN V1 planned built rate, leaving 6M to be done. A large portion of that would be done before another election.
I could not see another reversal of FTTP if restarted under any circumstance. FTTN is failing badly and FTTP has had nowhere near the same problems and is performing well.
They are probably reloading.
Busy reviewing the Labor NBN Policy image docs phoned out of Conroy's office maybe?
HFC with DOCSIS 3.1
The other big problem with 3.1 is the speed, or those on FTTN asking why those on HFC would get far faster speeds than those stuck with copper. The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable, something the current lot in power would not want to deal with.
The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable, something the current lot in power would not want to deal with.
Except to increase that divide. These are people who only measure success by wealth and power. They want more of those and can only get them [because their feeble imaginations can't perceive any other way] by taking it away from others. The idea of actually increasing the size of the pie so that everyone benefits is beyond them.
Remember those days pre-Liberal when NBN were on these forums answering questions.. ahh the good old days. Now whirlpool.net.au would be blocked from their server
I wish i remebered them days! Although i was on WP long before then, i wasn't deep in NBN untill about 5 years ago when i started learning that a possible change in government would mean an end to an already VERY LONG AND PAINFUL wait just to get on the "3-years-for-heaven-build-commence" list only to have it be swept out the window in 2013! i really wish NBNv1 was still going full steam ahead. I could only imagine how awesome it would have been to be on FTTP 6 months ago (and thats worst case!) and ot have ridden the wave the whole way and even being able to read communications with NBN staff on WP!
This is the kind of thing that should be happening with such a massive country wide undertaking.
I think ALP should just halt all new FTTN instantly. Finish any new builds of FTTN that aren't passed the point of no return (even if some are well into starting... save the money down the road of BUILD PRICE + FISH UP PRICE and just chuck away the half spent on BUILD START and scrap it and go back to FTTP NG-PON2 for all.
Forget HFC. Even though i've seen some good examples of decent ways to use it.. all the negatives just seem like a wast of time and money. In the end.. stop fkg around and get on with what we all know should never have been stopped. And just fix the issues that were wrong with that implementation (CVC / POI / Stopping the network from being changed again... etc).
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Once they take ownership of any part of the HFC network they commit to taking ownership if it all but that happens over time as the roll out progresses.
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
It's revenue for the NBNCo. If an interim HFC upgrade can pay for itself before it's replaced then that's a net benefit to the NBNCo. If it can't then don't do it. It's worth a look imo.
The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable
Makes it very attractive for Foxtel owners doesn't it and Telstra who wants to sell it share or part of....NBN CO added value at taxpayer expense...bloody wonderful!!
It's revenue for the NBNCo. If an interim HFC upgrade can pay for itself before it's replaced then that's a net benefit to the NBNCo. If it can't then don't do it. It's worth a look imo.
So NBN Co didn't have much regard for FTTN then if they gave HFC priority...
Maybe the ALP's policy could be to allow NBN Co (but probably without the portion of the current nbn� management that is one eyed) to decide whether to rollout FttP or Fttdp where NBN Co determines which is the beat approach against a set criteria. Existing FttN rollouts will be continued where its not feasible or economical to change to a FttP or Fttdp rollout. Otherwise FttN can go the way of the dodo (dodo also to = MT).
I have no flapping idea what they do with HFC, particularly given nbn� may have locked in costly arrangements with Telstra.
Maybe the ALP's policy could be to allow NBN Co (but probably without the portion of the current nbn� management that is one eyed) to decide whether to rollout FttP or Fttdp where NBN Co determines which is the beat approach against a set criteria.
I think the first step could be to show the Coalition has turned the NBNCo into such a financial basket case the only way to complete the roll out is for the government to fund it all with equity. There are already reports of the Coalition looking at ways to get out of the mess. Labor just needs to build on that. Using equity is cheaper all round.
Having done that, I think Labor can make a financial case for a return to FTTP. I take Phg's point in the Coalition thread, though, that FTTdp might be politically more acceptable. If FTTdp is far enough advanced as a technology to be used in a full scale roll out then it might be the best way forward.
I have no flapping idea what they do with HFC, particularly given nbn� may have locked in costly arrangements with Telstra.
I think that will depend on whether the NBNCo has triggered the 'take it all' clause in the Telstra agreement.
If they have a choice I think Labor should look to see if HFC is a cost-effective interim solution to generate some revenue whilst allowing the NBNCo to focus on FTTP (or FTTdp) elsewhere.
I also think they should use FTTB/dp as a first resort for MDUs to speed up the roll out. It's been too long already. They can't afford to slow down. They really need to speed up.
all just my opinion
oops
Umm ... this is the Labor thread :)
I think that will depend on whether the NBNCo has triggered the 'take it all' clause in the Telstra agreement.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC). I think it was asked and answered in the last senate select committee hearing, but I wasn't able to listen to that and haven't caught up on it yet.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC).
OK Thanks. I think Labor should have a quick look at it and then decide what to do. There should be a lot of information there already.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC). I think it was asked and answered in the last senate select committee hearing, but I wasn't able to listen to that and haven't caught up on it yet.
last Senate Estimates hearing page 132 of the Hansard
Senator CONROY: As we have discussed before, the revised definitive agreements with Telstra have anticherry-picking provisions in them in regard to the Telstra HFC. Specifically, a trigger point is reached when the first HFC line is transferred to nbn co, after which nbn co takes on an obligation to acquire and maintain Telstra's
entire HFC network or face the compensation regime. That is correct?
Mr Morrow: Yes.
Senator CONROY: Your corporate plan states that 10,000 HFC premises will be ready, and I know you
made a statement earlier about the service on the HFC by 30 June 2016. Will any of those HFC premises switched
on by nbn co by 30 June 2016 be on the Telstra network?
Mr Morrow: No.
Senator CONROY: So the trigger point will not be reached?
Mr Morrow: That is correct.
I fear what may happen on July 1 though
1 day before the election
On a a Friday a day where nbn� like to make lots of announcements
If they have a choice I think Labor should look to see if HFC is a cost-effective interim solution to generate some revenue whilst allowing the NBNCo to focus on FTTP (or FTTdp) elsewhere.
But what do you do with all the people without HFC in a HFC area?
But what do you do with all the people without HFC in a HFC area?
That's one of the options to consider:
- move everyone onto HFC over 18 months using the 'demand drop' method to do the lead-ins
- leave ADSL in those areas: let those who want to move to HFC move and let the others stay where they are
It's all part of the decision whether to take over the HFC networks or not. If it's not cost-effective to take them on then the NBNCo just goes back to paying for them to be decommissioned.
I fear what may happen on July 1 though
1 day before the election
On a a Friday a day where nbn� like to make lots of announcements
Would not be a surprise I agree.... I think in fact there was a comment on a thread that NBN Co would make an announcement on June 30/July 1 (?). When Labor announces its NBN Policy it should IMO specify that it will not honour any commitments made by LNP during caretaker period and should not be considered binding.
When Labor announces its NBN Policy it should IMO specify that it will not honour any commitments made by LNP during caretaker period and should not be considered binding.
think you mean nbn� , but they are allegedly bound by the caretaker provisions
think you mean nbn�
nah! that is a misnoma and misrepresents what it actually is.... I mean a real National Broadband Network Policy
Makes it very attractive for Foxtel owners doesn't it and Telstra who wants to sell it share or part of....NBN CO added value at taxpayer expense...bloody wonderful!!
i think its a case of taking over the ownership of the nbn itself � retaining its wholesale monopoly yet again (like this has worked well in the last 15 or so years hasnt it) � and having the public purse fund most of a network they will own and control. As it is, they * control the sale of the copper * that we are locked into if we use it. ie. they can simply make it impossible to sell off to anyone but them.
If this isnt corruption at federal govt level I dont know what is.
I hope labor have a good plan to trying and dig the nation out of this hole. I do expect that FttDP (with user pays pti to premises if they want fibre all the way) and FTTB (with similar user pays arrangements) will be the core of the ALP policy to be announced in the next couple of weeks. I am guessing they are saving it up for a hail mary pass at the end of the campaign.
I do expect that FttDP
The problem is this doesn't get us out of the Teltra veto powers mess, as it's still using Telstra's copper assets for that last 20 or so meters. FTTB is the only one that does in true FTTB situations as the MDF and building wiring belong to the body Corp and not Telstra
The problem is this doesn't get us out of the Teltra veto powers mess, as it's still using Telstra's copper assets for that last 20 or so meters.
I agree sir. But theres no silver bullet solution � there has to be a compromise. The positive in this is that at least it means labor wont be selling off the NBN anytime soon when the only buyer is Telstra...
I would expect under FTTDp there will be a fixed price fibre on demand option, and this will be the best we will get.
My personal opinion is the days of 'free fibre' are over � and with the changes to the definitive agreement, the revenue model that supported that (bringing in the HFC high profit centres) is gone. I guess we will know soon enough what their plans are. Has to be better than the libs current efforts at sabotaging a nation to support a corporation (and Murdochs tax break haven of foxtel).
with the changes to the definitive agreement
Changes to the definitive agreement don't really change this. Originally I thought they might, but they only really bring an issue about with areas that have a node. The remediation responsibility is capped, but not removed for areas that go straight to fibre. In some cases where the remediation responsibility hits its cap, it may even work out quicker than previously experienced because NBN Co would directly take over responsibility for fixing it.
the revenue model that supported that (bringing in the HFC high profit centres) is gone
I suggest you check the leaked documents. FTTH has a higher revenue model than all the other technologies in all the other areas. Also providing NBN Co don't do something monumentally stupid in caretaker mode, If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
I would expect under FTTDp there will be a fixed price fibre on demand option, and this will be the best we will get.
The problem I have with this is all the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises, do you seriously think the next push to fibre, either paid directly by subscribers, or a new mass rollout to get that last 30-40m is going to cost less than $300 per premises, and do you seriously think that no government is going to privatise before this occurs meaning Telstra gets their veto in there, and plays havoc with the market value?
Also providing NBN Co don't do something monumentally stupid in caretaker mode
Past experience is not promising
The problem I have with this is all the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises
The problem I have with this is those numbers come from the NBNCo. I haven't believed their other numbers and I'm not about to believe this one.
Telsoc reckoned the cost per pit for FTTdp was roughly the same as the cost per premises for FTTP. On that basis, if there are four premises using he pit the saving is ~$1,000 per premises. I'll go with Telsoc's numbers rather than the NBNCo's.
Telsoc quote/link ... whrl.pl/ReDd7K
The problem I have with this is those numbers come from the NBNCo.
Based on one fttdp trial connection.. hardly a representative sample.
I think the first step could be to show the Coalition has turned the NBNCo into such a financial basket case the only way to complete the roll out is for the government to fund it all with equity. There are already reports of the Coalition looking at ways to get out of the mess. Labor just needs to build on that. Using equity is cheaper all round.
There are two separate political issues with NBN:
1) � How it's financed
2) � The tech used
The genuine ideological difference is (1) (with the left position being very popular), but Turnbull successfully reframed the issue as (2).
But the reality is MTM means ongoing government funding is now a necessity.
I don't think this will be Labor policy, but it I still think the left have the opportunity to fork Turnbull on this. FTTP is profitable and could be viably privatised, but MTM is not. Personally, I'd love the irony of the privately funded quality from Labor vs publicly funded crap from the Libs.
Re HFC:
1) � We are yet to see how much it's really going to cost to implement. We're still early in it's development and the scope for more cost blowouts are still alive and kicking. But I think perhaps a bigger problem is infill. It's all very well to quote average CPPs, but once they start putting in nodes for areas with high infill requirements, effectively these premises are passed by � and nbn� have to pay for � both techs for the same premises. This is the anti-cherry picking provisions Telstra negotiated with their take-one, take-all HFC provisions.
2) � I don't think an incoming Labor government would have any huge problem unwinding any of this implemented during the caretaker period. Telstra could take it to the courts, but they'd lose (Telstra are fully aware of the caretaker provisions, they couldn't claim good faith). But even if Telstra won, Labor would win politically on this, and would be able to get enabling legislation through the Senate.
I suggest you check the leaked documents. FTTH has a higher revenue model than all the other technologies in all the other areas.
sorry, I was bringing up the point of HFC areas in the context they are big income stream areas (otherwise PM Murdoch wouldnt have rolled out HFC there in the first place).
The reason why I suggested the compromise approach is that traditionally the pit to the premises has been the most expensive component of the build. Ignoring the estimated build costs for premises that have been quoted for a minute (experience has shown that since telstra dont know the state of their ducts, no one can estimate how much capital work is involved � hence NBN have been quoting ranges for their technology upgrade program) it would appear FTTdP would be focusing labour on the street at pit level only, and eliminates the pit to the premises component expense for NBN � and that can be passed to the home owner, if they want a pure fibre run.
I would hope the current govt fell for the Telstra claims (otherwise its pure corruption) that all they had to do was drop a (powered) box at each DA, and then the DA had NBN. Well we we all know how that worked out.
Little Steve, I hope some of the stuff you have said is true. Lets hope its a cracker of a policy that will make people vote intelligently. The failure of the NBN in this country thanks to politicians (on both sides) has put this country at a significant disadvantage on so many levels at a time we simply do not need it (Im talking as the worlds largest coal exporter, failure to recognise climate change, etc.).
With the FTTN MTM, the operating costs are higher for NBNCo because they now have to upgrade, maintain and support multiple technologies and not just the single GPON.
The issue with HFC is that just because you have HFC running past premises, does not mean that everyone can be connected to HFC. The HFC network was only designed for something like a 20% take up. So, if you have both Telstra and Optus HFC running past premises, only around 40% of the premises will be able to connect to it before their capacity will be reached.
The result is you end up with having FTTN, and HFC in exactly the same area. Hardly a saving!
I'll go with Telsoc's numbers rather than the NBNCo's.
But much of the Telsoc analysis is based on the Strategic review numbers. You can't have it both ways.
the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises,
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP. Where a new LiC or aerial lead-in is required (~40%) this additional cost must be added.
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP.
do the costs also factor in the price of the GPON to VDSL converter, the premises modem and the premises power injector?
Or are these all on the user pays method?
It also gets murky for FTTdp as most devices seem to have one GPON input and various counts of copper output.
One to one would be easy to swap over to a Fibre lead in, multiple copper port models would require either a network rejig to permit a fibre lead in with more fibre pulled in after build, lots of spare fibre at build or the install of splitters and multiports with spare unused ports
and having the public purse fund most of a network they will own and control.
That's the game...wonder if a few pollies are investing in Telstra.....
If this isnt corruption at federal govt level I dont know what is.
It also gets murky for FTTdp as most devices seem to have one GPON input and various counts of copper output.
I think FTTdp only makes sense if the network architecture supports FTTP migration for all users both on an ad-hoc (on demand) basis and bulk upgrade (switching all remaining FTTdp users). This migration needs to have minimal disruption to services that have not specifically requested the migration.
I've said this before, but will repeat it again... I also think FTTdp is only a viable possibility if the fibre network architecture that feeds it maintains the flexibility of the original design.
If a FTTdp doesn't retain the ability to deliver direct fibre and path diverse products then it will have the same reduced revenue issue that FTTN has, it will just take a bit longer to reach the crunch point.
[edit] Added the point about disruption
But much of the Telsoc analysis is based on the Strategic review numbers. You can't have it both ways.
I can see many references to the SR for FTTN and FTTP costs. Can you point me at the bit in the Telsoc report that gets FTTdp costs from the SR. afaict I am not having it both ways.
The only FTTdp cost I can find in the SR is redacted and refers to a 48 port device 200m from the premises. That is not the FTTdp we are talking about. Is there something else?
edit:
iirc quigley's numbers for the premises connection were $1100-1500. So one pit for four premises is $1600 for FTTdp (Telsoc) versus $4400-6000 for FTTP. That's a saving of $700-1100 per premises.
I guess we will know soon enough what their plans are.
Pre voting is in about two weeks I think, so all policies including NBN will be released before then with time to 'argue' the points. Some 4.5M early votes are expected according to Insiders programme this morning so the last couple of weeks will be interesting for theatrics rather than policy � no new announcements one would expect.
Telstra could take it to the courts, but they'd lose (
They would be more than happy to make a fat financial settlement while parading their well funded and extensive legal team....
I also think FTTdp is only a viable possibility if the fibre network architecture that feeds it maintains the flexibility of the original design.
I think that's the scenario described by Mark Gregory in his articles and WP posts about FTTdp. I'm not a techie but aiui the only difference is instead of a passive optical multiport feeding the premises from the street there is a reverse-powered VDSL device.
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP.
Apples for apples, just as with FTTN costing less because only to the node is included in cost with the rest cost shifted if it is to happen any time into the future.
You can't ignore the up front cost to consumers for the leadin component which must be more than $300 so what's the point of doing FTTdp other than satisfying a political standpoint. Seems like simple logic to me.
do the costs also factor in the price of the GPON to VDSL converter, the premises modem and the premises power injector?
Or are these all on the user pays method?
Difficult to know. The FttDp leaked document appears to include CPE in the $729 premises activation costing but this isn't explicitly stated (I think that figure would be too high if CPE were not included) .
Can you point me at the bit in the Telsoc report that gets FTTdp costs from the SR.
It doesn't. It gives a cost from a G.Fast equipment manufacturer of <$300 compared to a FttP cost estimate of >$1500. What is not clear is what these cost estimates include.
The only FTTdp cost I can find in the SR is redacted and refers to a 48 port device 200m from the premises. That is not the FTTdp we are talking about.
Yet that is what the Sckipio costing above seems to be referring to.
From your Telsoc link http://telsoc.org/ajtde/2014-
This bit ...
We need to ask what corresponding costs should be assumed for the parts of the access network not included in Sckipio's final 200m calculations, but it is likely that the cost of FTTdp even in their estimation is not far above that of the $350 to $700 international FTTN range given at page 78 of the NBN Co Strategic Review report.
seems at odds with this bit..
However, the cost of the FTTdp customer connection in the Australian NBN setting involves only a portion of the work performed for the $300 cost suggested by Sckipio above (being supply and installation in the pit of the micro-node device).
iirc quigley's numbers for the premises connection were $1100-1500.
According to Quigley's rebuttal, the average cost of customer connect (on a fully loaded basis) was $1375 when he left. This was increased to $1552 in the FY2015 annual results. Who knows where it is at now.
So one pit for four premises is $1600 for FTTdp (Telsoc)
Does this include CPE? I doubt it at $400 per premises (which is a little over half of the $729 cost from the leaked doc). Is capitalised internal labour included? Please note the first quote from the telsoc document above suggests � but it is likely that the cost of FTTdp even in their estimation is not far above that of the $350 to $700 international FTTN range given at page 78 of the NBN Co Strategic Review report.
That's a saving of $700-1100 per premises.
You can't say what the saving is until you can compare like for like costings.
The leaked FttDp document gives a range of $250 � $2000 depending the state of LiC and how it is replaced if required. The low side is for premises where the LiC is fit for purpose (roughly 60% of brownfields in the FttP footprint so far).
Does this include CPE?
Nope. It's A generous allowance of $800 in equipment costs and $800 for multiple installer visits to the street pit, translates to $1600 in total, for an average of $400 per premises. That has to be compared to the cost of the FTTP multiport and four premise connections an average $1,375 (Quigley). That's a saving of $3,900 for four premises.
I think the cost of the CPE has to be added because it's not reasonable to expect the end customer to provide a modem/router that can support reverse power to the pit. I think the NBNCo would want control over that. The CPE would have to cost ~$600 to get the savings down to the NBNCo's $200-300 though.
You can't say what the saving is until you can compare like for like costings.
I think I am doing like for like costings.
guys billshorten as debate today at 7.30 , do u think he will announce something about the nbn today ?
do u think he will announce something about the nbn today ?
Knowing Politicians, I don't really expect him or anyone else to announce anything about the National Broadband network for a while, sadly despite what the NBN looks like now and the mess it is, it's still not at the top of anyone's lists, but if we see or hear any more NBN from either side of the team then i'll be watching closely.
This was a big infrastructure Project for Australia and it scratches my head as to how something so big get's little so attention (leave out the part where technical people wouldn't understand the NBN) If the NBN was some sort of Highway construction I can bet my Fibre two shoes that Both sides of politics would be taking about it constantly, but a Fibre network for the future? Eh at the bottom of every list at the moment such as it is :(
but he said they will announce the policy next two weeks ! he said that
Politicians make lots of promises and say this and that to the Camera's but what you don't know is whether they are being truthful or not.
Remember how we were all promised 25 Megabits to all premises (or most premises I don't know which way it was) by 2016? Well it's half way through 2016 now and where's the so called "promised" 25 Megabits? Up in thin air of course. I hate to say it but Politicians can't be trusted, it's a very dirty game to see how many sheep they can get to follow them.
If Bill says anything about the NBN then we should count ourselves lucky as for the past 2-3 years NBN hasn't really been at the top of the priority or list of things to speak and talk about.
The CPE would have to cost ~$600 to get the savings down to the NBNCo's $200-300 though.
You do understand that the nbnTM $250 cost differential is against a FttP "Best Case Install", and not the average cost? That is, using an existing fit for purpose LiC, as is said to be the case for ~60% of brownfield premises in the current FttP footprint.
I think I am doing like for like costings.
But one side does not include CPE, and is based on supposedly generous assumptions that are not likely to include 'capitalised internal labor'.
I understand your reluctance to give any credence to nbnTM or even NBNCo figures, however once the makeup of those figures is clearly understood, it would be very surprising to find they are not correct.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
You do understand that the nbnTM $250 cost differential is against a FttP "Best Case Install", and not the average cost? That is, using an existing fit for purpose LiC, as is said to be the case for ~60% of brownfield premises in the current FttP footprint.
Quigley put the cost at $1,100-1,500 (iirc). So we compare $400 (Telsoc) + CPE to $1,100 for FTTP. For the difference to be just $250 the CPE would have to cost $450. I don't believe it.
But one side does not include CPE, and is based on supposedly generous assumptions that are not likely to include 'capitalised internal labor'.
I'm using Quigley's numbers which didn't include all the later 'add ons'. I think that's like for like.
I understand your reluctance to give any credence to nbnTM or even NBNCo figures, however once the makeup of those figures is clearly understood, it would be very surprising to find they are not correct.
Are you prepared to apply that logic to the strategic review and the cost-benefit analysis? I'm not. I think the NBNCo has manufactured figures to fit the argument, ie. FTTN is the way to go.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
Not with estimates like this.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute. I don't think this government would.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute. I don't think this government would.
the current one may not, but if Labor do get in then they may.
The Liberals overturned so many "conventions" in this term that it wouldn't surprise me if some action was not taken on many things not just NBN Co Limited.
And the Previous Government Cabinet discussions and other documents now seem open game for Royal Commissions
If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
Except that NBN has already contractors out and about in SA and WA installing HFC lead-ins and even reports of HFC infill as part of the current HFC Build. If Labor do order a cease and desist this is certainly a waste of taxpayer money (but no different to those HFC areas that underwent unnecessary pit and duct remediation for FTTP and then were culled from the map, like 6APP-05, see http://blog.jxeeno.com/nbn-co
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute
The AFP? :)
the current one may not, but if Labor do get in then they may.
I think Labor will do a number of 'independent reviews' that come up with different numbers and a different solution. Then everyone will change ends and the arguing will continue. The big difference this time is they're not starting from scratch so they should get things done quite quickly.
And the Previous Government Cabinet discussions and other documents now seem open game for Royal Commissions
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
HFC is not the great saviour of the NBN. It has a limited capacity because of its design. The thing is that Telstra HFC is also generally in the same area as Optus HFC, so it is not as though it will cover a greater area. In fact FTTN is have to be used to fill in the shortfall.
It looks like Labor are trying to make the NBN an election issue.
Tanya Plibersek posted this video on Facebook today
https://www.facebook.co
#NBNfails
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
I understand what you mean here. And if there was some way to ensure the LNP would never do such a thing in the future it would be good to make an end of it for the very reason you allude to: that a political RC is a bad thing.
It must, of course, be said there is no way to ensure the LNP wouldn't do it again, so Labor not doing it would be to give the LNP a weapon that only they would use. There's no point in Labor playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules if the LNP won't. Nor is there any point in Labor setting an example because the LNP won't see it that way; they would see it as political weakness to not play dirty. In my opinion, of course.
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government. In the case of so many things to do with the MTM fiasco I believe there may be just cause for an RC.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
That is why you engage a number of consultants to contribute to your reviews, and you tell them what you want to find. That way no single person owns or is responsible for the conclusions.
You also do these reviews as early as possible, so you can load up the existing technology with "Actuals" including trials and prior to efficiency gains. Then you use "blue sky" assumptions for your preferred technologies as there is no possibility of actuals being available.
Oh, and when it comes to CPP calculations, you load prior technologies with the all the costs of trials and early builds where the best approach was still being assessed. You also load it up with the legal settlement costs for abandoning FTTP contracts.
But when it comes to changing access technologies, you don't book the IT system changes required against the new access technologies CPP but instead across the entire build. This lets you book an extra $1b against mostly FTTP as HFC and FTTN have rolled out to sweet FA premises.
So yeah, I think it is possible for them to cook the books and I do believe they have. But I suspect it may not be prosecutable, just that it wouldn't pass the pub test.
I've said this before, but I would be really interested in hearing what Rue's honest advice would be for a changed government without Bill Morrow sitting next to him at the table.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government.
I've never believed the corruption stuff. I think the MTM is just bad policy badly executed. I think Labor will have a RC into the finance sector, including the regulators. I don't think they'll also have one into Turnbull's ego. I think they can make the point much better by just getting the NBN back on track.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government. In the case of so many things to do with the MTM fiasco I believe there may be just cause for an RC
Malcolm had to come up with a non FTTP NBN proposal to keep his portfolio (and membership) in the TA LNP.
Once the coup happened, he could hardly go back and change it, as he would lose all remaining credibility. So we have bad and horrendously expensive policy perpetuated so he can keep his position.
No conspiracy, just a severe case of lack of vision by TA and MT. MT should have thought about what would happen if he had to implement his policy.
Of course the nbn sale after the election may be a different thing. All MT.
It would help if Labor came out with a detailed policy
In light of the AFP raids and the subsequent document 'distribution', should we be asking Bill or Malcolm what that policy is?
I think the MTM is just bad policy badly executed
And how do you account for the fraudulent reports and reviews then? Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals corruption in my book.
Quigley put the cost at $1,100-1,500 (iirc).
Quigleys evidence to the senate on the 19/04/13 was that estimated at completion (EAC) of volume sites was inline with the 2102 Corporate plan @ $1100.
His $1375 figure includes the 'capitalised internal labour' cost to present a like for like comparison to figures nbnTM were quoting, and may include premises outside the volume sites.
So we compare $400 (Telsoc) + CPE to $1,100 for FTTP. For the difference to be just $250 the CPE would have to cost $450.
No because the $250 differential claims are for FttDp costs of $729 (actually these can really only be categorised as estimates) made against the low end FttP costs at $977. Once again � it is not clear whether any of these costs are 'fully loaded'.
The $1100 cost for FttP is an EAC average across the FttP footprint that is not 'fully loaded'.
The $400 (Telsoc) cost is a guestimate, based on a 'generous allowance' being added to a manufacturers cost estimate which includes zero detail of what it actually entails.
Are you prepared to apply that logic to the strategic review and the cost-benefit analysis? I'm not. I think
the NBNCo has manufactured figures to fit the argument, ie. FTTN is the way to go.
Of course not. There are serious problems with the SR numbers. I agree that management has manufactured figures to suit their agenda. However, I don't believe they have misreported actuals. Here are a couple of examples from that document which are germane to our current discussion.
Page 62 � Exhibit 2-26:
LNDN Cost per premises:
CP2012 = 1054
Current Normalised* EAC = 1383 *(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
Revised Outlook = 1997 � WTF??? Why you ask? � Because REDACTED
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
Demand Drops:
CP2012 = 344
Current LTD = 763 � This seems to be a blowout
Revised Outlook = 786 � That is not a huge increase on the LTD, but this is being phased out
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
Bulk/Build Drops:
CP2012 = 328
Current LTD = 314
Revised Outlook = 682 � WTF??? Why you ask? � No reason given
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
In Premises Only:
CP2012 = 408
Current LTD = 433
Revised Outlook = 537 � WTF??? Why you ask? � No reason given and suggestions from the FttDp leaked doc suggest it might be 320 in their current thinking.
Reporting of actuals for the build is littered with qualifiers. There was a report to the parliamentary joint committee by NBNCo on 19/04/13 that showed that actuals for the various early release sites and Type 1 and Type 2 architecture sites for the LNDN, and Customer connect actuals for the initial sites and the volume sites. It should be noted that this document states that the Customer Connect figure for volume sites @ $1100 was for demand drop installs which also included Battery Backup units and Telstra Lead-in acquisition costs.
Not with estimates like this.
Not for estimates perhaps, but for actual figures I think you will find there are.
I need a shower after diving back into the Strategic Review.
guys billshorten as debate today at 7.30 , do u think he will announce something about the nbn today
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
And how do you account for the fraudulent reports and reviews then? Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals corruption in my book.
Yep, the situation around the reports and reviews seems really fishy. I think those probably are essentially fraudulent. Those were mostly all commissioned by the federal Comms department (i.e Turnbull) though.
Bill and the rest of Malcolm's handpicked management I don't think are really corrupt though. Mainly just incompetent and beholden to the findings of the dodgy reports.
Oh, and when it comes to CPP calculations, you load prior technologies with the all the costs of trials and early builds where the best approach was still being assessed.
I understand that and was alluding to it in my previous post here.
Page 62 � Exhibit 2-26:
LNDN Cost per premises:
CP2012 = 1054 **According to the document I am referring to below this figure is actually 1200 (1150 � 1250)
Current Normalised* EAC = 1383 *(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
Revised Outlook = 1997 � WTF??? Why you ask? � Because REDACTED
It is this rider which requires further clarification
*(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
I also mentioned the report to the parliamentary joint committee by NBNCo on 19/04/13 that showed that actuals for the various early release sites and Type 1 and Type 2 architecture sites for the LNDN.
That document listed the following distinct rollout types (if I can call them that) and LNDN costs (Rounded to the nearest 100):
Tasmania Pre-Release Actual = 5000
Tasmania Stage 2 Actual = 4000
First Release Sites Actual = 3100 (Mainland?)
Type 1 In Service EAC = 1800
Type 2 In Service EAC = 1200
FSAMs Work Commenced EAC = 1100 � 1400
2012/15 Corp Plan FY2013 = 1200
According to me, the wording of the Strategic Review is ambiguous enough to allow management to use costs from the the Type 1 and Type 2 architecture FSAMs at least and possibly even the First Release Sites also.
So yeah, I think it is possible for them to cook the books and I do believe they have.
Once again I think they have been very careful to ensure figures they referred to as 'Actuals' are in fact accurate. The 'fully loaded' costings they refer to are a case in point. The accounting treatment is different, but in no way is it illegal.
EDIT: It is ethically questionable when this figure is knowingly compared to one that has been calculated in a different way, but not illegal.
This is a perfect example of Turnbulls' lack of moral compass.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
No question asked on nbn subject but Bill did mention they would reign in the rollout delays and cost in his closing speech. That is all I heard.
Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals ...
... politics. Both sides. Sad, but that's how I see it.
I need a shower after diving back into the Strategic Review.
I'm really sorry about this. I didn't mean to start a detailed debate. I just didn't believe FTTdp is $250 per premises less than FTTP. I do believe they've skewed the figures to make FTTN look better.
Quigleys evidence to the senate on the 19/04/13 was that estimated at completion (EAC) of volume sites was inline with the 2102 Corporate plan @ $1100.
Yep, my fault. The $1,100-1,400 was for fibre down the street. The premises connection was $1,100 as you say.
(wrong button) edit:
Here are a couple of examples from that document which are germane to our current discussion.
So the premises connection is either $736 or $747 or $1,219 (wtf) depending on which numbers you use. If the first two are right then I'll have to accept the $250-300 difference.
... politics. Both sides. Sad, but that's how I see it.
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
I'm really sorry about this. I didn't mean to start a detailed debate.
No need to apologise, it is from such detailed analysis that everyones understanding is improved. I know mine is when I have to document the arguments I think are valid.
I just don't believe FTTdp is $250 per premises less than FTTP.
As I said, the reality is not that FttDp is $250 less than FttP 'on average' (as is perhaps being claimed by some).
It is that FttDp may be ~$250 less than the FttP 'best case install' scenario.
The sckipio website has this to say regarding comparisons to FttP.
Unfortunately, the cost to implement fiber all the way to a consumer�s home can be very substantial � as much as $4,000 per subscriber. Most of this cost relates to trenches that need to be dug between the curb and the home and other home installation costs. (my italics)
This is not the case if there is a fibre path to the premises using existing infrastructure, as is the case for ~60% of the current FttP brownfields footprint.
With regard to the leaked document FttDp costings, given a trial size of 1, any figures for FttDp from nbnTM must be considered for what they are � estimates.
Given the timing of the leaked document (02/02/15), and the lack of certainty regarding the configuration of the solutions being investigated (let alone settled on), it is difficult to see how they have arrived at a number which ends in a 9 for the proposed customer connect cost.
EDIT:
So the premises connection is either $736 or $747 or $1,219 (wtf) depending on which numbers you use. If the first two are right then I'll have to accept the $250-300 difference.
No, the numbers I quoted from the strategic review indicate*:
'Demand Drop' was 1196 LTD and would become 1323 in the revised outlook.
'Build/Bulk Drop' was 747 LTD and would become 1115 in the revised outlook.
*(Provided the redacted line in the table does not have a material effect on the numbers we are discussing)
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
It would seem a good bet that would only be applicable if there was a change of govt going by past history since last election....no faith at all for any accountability what so ever...
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
The motivation is what makes them low...This nbn MTM farce speaks for itself and is clearly documented with Turnbull's hand on helm...regardless of fault shift to NBN Co...
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
nailed it.
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
I was thinking of the Implementation Study which said Labor could build their NBN for almost exactly the same price, $42.8bn versus $43bn, in competition with Optus and Telstra. That looked a bit convenient at the time and looked even more dodgy when Conroy later decided to pay Telstra ~$90bn over 30 years.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
AS usual Zealot you only see what you want to see and usually that's usually the the part you want to see. I suuggest you get on iView and take anther look. SHorten does raise NBN in his closing speech.
If we apply the usual logic you and Kingy do the lack of reference to NBN by Turnbull must mean he is hiding and very reluctant to talk about NBN because of great embarrassment with the lack of performance and failure of FTTN....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
That doesn't mean it's not an election issue � if anything it's now a bigger issue thanks to the LNP raids.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor says they want to roll out more Fibre then they need to prove how much it will cost.
Who still haven't acknowledged the cost and time blow outs.
The LNP promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 � it's been linked to before and I'll do it again:
http://www.abc.net.au/mediaw
Does this standard also apply to the LNP?
What do you think about their cost blow out?
I guess it doesn't matter as the NBN has hit all the "revised" targets � it's just a pity that 95% of connections are on fttp.
I guess the 2016 promise isn't real either.
SHorten does raise NBN in his closing speech.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
For me, Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though. So far, Labor has campaigned on claimed government cover ups, cost blow outs and delays. If fibre is the way to go then I would have expected that Labor would be talking more about the economic benefits of FTTP and and the need to recover lost economic opportunity.
If we apply the usual logic you and Kingy do the lack of reference to NBN by Turnbull must mean he is hiding and very reluctant to talk about NBN
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known. Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative. Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM
You logic is bad, I suggest you revisit it and note where you went wrong.
Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though
You don't? How about Nodelotto, what's fair about that? How about the digital divide? Also unfair.
economic benefits of FTTP and and the need to recover lost economic opportunity
Still early days yet.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
No one can "improve" the MTM. The only way to improve it is to get rid of it.
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known.
And yet they refuse to talk about it, to address the cost blow outs, the delays, the moving goal posts and the missed targets. Because they know it's a dud, they're just hoping Australia doesn't find out in time.
Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
It's likely too late for a complete switch, labor need to find out what the details of all the deals are before they can present any viable solution.
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
Which they can't realistically do until they have all the details. Details which NBN co and the govt. aren't providing.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
That's wishful thinking on your part, but the fact is that the MTM doesn't need to be improved � it needs to be replaced.
For me, Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though.
Really? You're unfamiliar with the concept of "the haves and the have-nots", and you're unfamiliar with node lotto?
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known.
It's already well known for not meeting even one of its policy objectives.
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
There is no such thing as the Coalition's NBN!
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
Of course we can � the MTM is a failure and can be improved on several ways.
The only way to improve it is to get rid of it.
Obviously the Labor party will not do that. Makes a mockery of their anger over costs and delays.
And yet they refuse to talk about it
Scrutiny of the NBN happens at parliamentary committees and is also discussed in mainstream media when financial reports are released. It's as if Bill Shorten just found out about the NBN.
It's likely too late for a complete switch
Not if fibre is the only way to go.
Details which NBN co and the govt. aren't providing.
There were leaks. If those leaks are credible then Labor should have more than enough information to form policy.
Makes a mockery of their anger over costs and delays.
Blaming the ALP for the LNP's mistakes � again.
Malcolm promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs minimum for all by 2016 � he has failed on all counts.
The ALP can announce whatever they want � as long as the cost overrun isn't doubled then the LNP have nothing to complain about � especially as thanks to their "solution" it may have to now be brought onto budget.
Why are we so concerned about the cost of the nbn anyway � it's a network that will pay for itself many times over just as the copper can has.
The nbn will cost around the same amount as the gold plating of the energy networks � unlike those it will add to the gdp of the country.
If it's a "it's only for leisure purposes" then the same argument could be used against roads, rail, television, radio and the copper can.
If it's a "private does it better" argument � the fact that the copper/hfc networks are so degraded and the fact that both hfc networks were not finished demonstrates that infrastructure competition does not work.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor says they want to roll out more Fibre then they need to prove how much it will cost.
You mean like the LNP not disclosing that it would be paying Telstra and Optus billions of dollars for access to their HFC network and degraded copper network that Telstra was paid to shut down?
Or the fact that NBNCo has purchased many tens of thousands of dollars worth of copper that it will use to replace major parts of the degraded copper network they paid for?
Or that by implementing the discredited MTM, NBNCo now has to maintain and upgrade a complex network comprising up to 5 different technologies instead of just one technology with the GPON it shut down?
Once again the LNP supporters are blaming the ALP and (yet again) ignoring the issues with their own solution.
The LNP have nothing on this � they've created the mess and it will have serious consequences for years to come.
I hope protecting Rupert's interest was worth it.
the MTM is a failure and can be improved on several ways.
We still have to hear from Labor on that. How is it that that whirlpoolians can talk about the HFC rollout and cost per premises (in the last few pages of this very thread no less!) in great detail but Jason Clare can't? In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
The ALP can announce whatever they want � as long as the cost overrun isn't doubled then the LNP have nothing to complain about � especially as thanks to their "solution" it may have to now be brought onto budget.
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
You mean like the LNP not disclosing that it would be paying Telstra and Optus billions of dollars for access to their HFC network and degraded copper network that Telstra was paid to shut down?
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
The LNP promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 � it's been linked to before and I'll do it again:
http://www.abc.net.au/media
Not too sure what you are talking about, this is the Labor thread.
I hope protecting Rupert's interest was worth it.
Rupert�s lackey�s are always proud of their work, especially when it screws up any progress in this country.
here is no such thing as the Coalition's NBN!
Yup
LNP slimebulls mess.
Just dandy. :0<
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense????
Is it commonsense to pay for a network that needed to be upgraded without actually knowing the state of the network?
Is it commonsense to purchase a network that has limited connectivity and needs a major upgrade to come close to what is promised for the NBN?
Is it commonsense to purchase networks from two competitors where the networks overlay each other?
Is it commonsense to place an ongoing financial burden on NBNCo to install, maintain and upgrade multiple technologies instead of a single one?
Apparently, the LNP proponents of the MTM NBN do not have this thing called commonsense.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
Only you could come to that conclusion Kingy other than zealot maybe. Turnbull certainly didn't as he is mute on anything NBN at all.
Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though.
Fairness eh? What is fair about going to the last election with many promises and breaking almost all � in particular NBN...$29.5B fully costed now $56+B and growing, ready to go but 2 � years to start anything other than FTTP etc and then that is a failure with 25MB/s at least by 2016, now impossible. WOW ...that's all about fairness to the Australian public, eh?
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
If you haven't noticed Labor put a plan into place in 2010 � FTTP. That is their Plan and I'd suggest it just needs to be rejigged to bring to a halt the LNP MTM total failure...that is far from an alternative. NO new world solution needed when it is all there, just how you do it. You will just have to wait until Labor tell you Kingy, they work to their agenda not yours... can you wait a couple of weeks?
Apparently, the LNP proponents of the MTM NBN do not have this thing called commonsense.
Common sense is becoming an extinct commodity now.
LNP proves how they can destroy all factors of common sense with their MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Not too sure what you are talking about, this is the Labor thread.
Nice diversion � but it still doesn't answer the question.
You are attacking the ALP and yet you haven't acknowledged the issues with the MTM.
If the ALP's rollout costs 10-15 billion more, but has a return on investment that's 3-4 times as much you will still pick holes in it.
The ALP rollout wasn't perfect, but it didn't double the costs and time frames and could give users a minimum speed.
As for HFC � it all depends on what the LNP have signed.
I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
nothing odd about it. you seem to think its the ALP that are in government over the last 3 years. HINT: Its the LNP thats in power, DH!
Obviously the Labor party will not do that.
What's obvious to you is not obvious to anyone outside the Liberal party.
Scrutiny of the NBN happens at parliamentary committees
You're not seriously suggesting that nbn�'s performance at parliamentary committees has been open, honest and transparent are you?
There were leaks. If those leaks are credible then Labor should have more than enough information to form policy.
LOL, tell that to Ziggy who claims they are stolen misinformation.
Is it commonsense to pay for a network that needed to be upgraded without actually knowing the state of the network?
Is it commonsense to purchase a network that has limited connectivity and needs a major upgrade to come close to what is promised for the NBN?
Is it commonsense to purchase networks from two competitors where the networks overlay each other?
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra.
Is it commonsense to place an ongoing financial burden on NBNCo to install, maintain and upgrade multiple technologies instead of a single one?
No need to get angry. Labor has been very quiet on the HFC deals and they initiated the process to pay off Telstra and Optus.
The HFC network will have north of 3M premises it covers 30% of Australian premises
3M * 4000 per premise for FTTH is $12B to replace the HFC network with FTTP, likely a lot more.
That $12B is a burden as it will incur interest costs, upgrading HFC will be less of a burden as it will cost far less.
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
We still have to hear from Labor on that
Speaking of hearing from Labor ... you have forgotten ... these are politicians we're talking about. And this is during an election campaign. They choose when to release their polcies ... not you.
In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN.
That's hilarious, considering you didn't cast that sort of scrutiny over the lack of Coalition solutions over the term of the Labor government ... which is ... they had no policy until just before the election.
It is interesting to hear you bleat about Labor's lack of speech when you had no problems with the other side last time.
Just the usual KingForce double standards eh?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
That is impossible.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense says you don't try to "upgrade" end of life infrastructure when you can get a better result much cheaper with a replacement.
Not too sure what you are talking about
We are talking about your claims that nbn� are doing a good job when they have failed to meet every election promise.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra.
That is a blatant lie.
No need to get angry.
There is every need to get angry with this negligent waste of money.
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
You're living in an alternate reality world � in the real world, HFC networks are being replaced with FTTP because the HFC costs a fortune to maintain and cannot deliver the speeds (and revenue) required.
You're living in an alternate reality world � in the real world, HFC networks are being replaced with FTTP because the HFC costs a fortune to maintain and cannot deliver the speeds (and revenue) required.
Hell, in quite a few areas, even NBN co is replacing the HFC. There are significant overbuilds of the Optus HFC, with FTTN!
https://twitter.com/DCoopes/status/733940743803260928
The whole shebang is a mess. Ok, Labor need to release their policy, but they'll do it in their own time, because no matter what they release, they will face a very hostile media. But the libs need to state their policies, because whoever is in, is going to need to fix something.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
Can you point to anyone anywhere buying an HFC network (or copper network) for them to upgrade or "fine-tune"?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded
Please provide a source for this opinion.
HFC is a good technology, however in Australia the network's are outdated and Optus has issues with congestion and degradation.
The nbn has changed some areas from hfc to fttn.
Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
Only in your reality. Whirlpool recognizes the mess Turnbull has made with his MTM policy, and the serious delays his policy has caused, and know the pragmatic approach will be to make the most of the crap pile Turnbull has left and implement measures that will actually move us to fibre. This will entail changing some area where FTTN has not started yet to FTTdp or FTTP, and providing the poor suckers with FTTN a planned and costed upgrade path to FTTP. There should also be a plan put in place to get HFC people onto FTTP as well. Turnbull is doing none of those things.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
Justify that statement and please don't use NBN Co discredited SR and CBA data as that is clearly false.... waste of time.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense, eh? Walk us through that taking into account more than just up front costs.....
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
You and Kingy are really, really stressing over this ....why?
We still have to hear from Labor on that. How is it that that whirlpoolians can talk about the HFC rollout and cost per premises (in the last few pages of this very thread no less!) in great detail but Jason Clare can't? In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
Maybe you need to get through your head.
"HFC was Liberals Ideas."
Repeat after me. "HFC was Liberals Ideas."
Clare never intended or wanted to put in obsolete technologies such as FTTN or HFC.
Sorry but you can't blame Labor for Liberals Flap ups.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra
This is not the same thing and you know it. Both Optus and Telstra were paid compensation for them moving their Internet customers over from HFC to the FTTP NBN. It is the LNP who then paid even more for access to the HFC to deliver the discredited MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
How can you speak for Labor when they havn't announced anything. Also the Liberal initiated AFP raid sealed their docs.
ALP will announce their NBN policy when its ready SoonTM.
Anything else you say is just noise and should be ignored until the policy is announced.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
That's not the important measure though. You should ask which is more cost-effective.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense is a poor indicator of anything. Let's start with what we're trying to achieve and then do a proper comparison.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
I hope they will at least look at it as potentially a cost-effective interim solution. That shouldn't take long given all the design work that's been done for the MTM.
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