http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
It may not have a choice.
Although the afp should now have to investigate non co for stealing "sensitive information" going by the lnp supporters here.
Although the afp should now have to investigate non co for stealing "sensitive information" going by the lnp supporters here.
Seeing they "took photos of 34 or 35 documents" seems like they arn't sure just how many photos were taken so maybe the AFP along with a representative from Conroy's Office acting as a "special constable" should head over to NBN and go through everything they have to make sure there are no more photos.....
https://twitter.com/DavidSharaz?ref_src=twsrc
Someone with better eyesight might be able to read that.
Someone with better eyesight might be able to read that.
This better?
https://pbs.twimg.com
This better?
mmmm.
"images contained on the phone"
Maybe they also need to request that images automatically backed up to the cloud be deleted as well.
All they would have needed to do was disable auto delete "cloud backup" on the phone and they would still have a cloud copy of those images
Maybe they also need to request that images automatically backed up to the cloud be deleted as we
They did.
Conroys legal team have also asked who authorised the taking of such images.
They did.
Conroys legal team have also asked who authorised the taking of such images.
good.
I hope Sen Conroy or his legal team have a pair or 2 of winklepickers to wear at the appropriate time
Is it just me that lol'd at "downloaded onto a USB". :)
Well well well fellow forumites who appreciate a proper NBN, what a wonderful day for free kicks Labor has received!!
Mr Turnbull is not going to come out of this well at all.
Labor will thank the NBN staffer for taking those illicit pics!
just me that lol'd
I cringe every time I hear someone call a thumb drive a "USB", USB is the connector, not the device.
free kicks Labor has received!!
Seems almost like an own goal by Mr S.
Seems almost like an own goal by Mr S.
It will highlight Turnbull's incompetence. There is only so much mileage one get from charisma & eloquent speaking before actual substance is put under the blowtorch
I hope Sen Conroy or his legal team have a pair or 2 of winklepickers to wear at the appropriate time
a �factional bovver boy�
Me thinks the current opposition Minister for Defence is going to defend himself ably, show them what happens when you bovver him like this, and go kick some arse. Go Stephen.
Does he have a twitter?
Appears not. But he's being talked about on Twitter quite a bit today.
https://twitter.com/search?q=lee-steere&src=typd
#NBNGATE is trending on Twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/nbngate
#NBNGATE is trending on Twitter
https://twitter.com/hashtag/nbngate
There are some pearlers on that Twitter page.
Anyway s/he states:
Status quo for NBN Co to hide things isn't it Kingforce? Lets hope the person is charged for illegally obtaining and disseminating documents they had no right to collect. There needs to be lots of questions asked of the government, NBN Co and the AFP about what has happened here right?
Lets hope the person is charged for illegally obtaining and disseminating documents they had no right to collect.
I don't know that it is illegal. If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
So your not concerned about illegal dissemination of alp policy documents or the damage that may be done?
So your not concerned about illegal dissemination of alp policy documents or the damage that may be done?
Who told you that it was ALP policy documents and why do you believe them?
Senior Labor sources have confirmed to BuzzFeed News they suspect one of the documents photographed by the NBN staffer was the party's yet to be released NBN policy.
Labor fears the policy has been leaked to the Liberal Party, and may be given to the media before Bill Shorten gets a chance to announce it during the election campaign.
How can the LCP release it to the media without admitting that they obtained it from the raided documents?
Particularly so IF Labor (now) has the originals in a very secure place with limited access to other 'lesser' Labor-ites.
Senior Labor sources
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Does it matter if they do or not?
Does it matter if they do or not?
That was my thought too. It was a bit of a cheap/petty shot. Time people get real here.
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Says the guy using an alias on Whirlpool....
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
Nothing can stop NBNCo suffering commercial damages except an ALP election victory.
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
You quoted an anonymous person in another thread (who subsequently admitted/claimed they hadn't seen the misbehaving special constable for several years) as an authority on what happened or didn't happen during the raid.
then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
The damage has already been done.... that's what the original leaked documents showed, the complete lies, deceit and coverup from the LNP. The commercial damage from the MTM is there, and the public's right to know about it is what has been ignored in all of this. But it appears that if you make Turnbull look incompetent you can expect a visit from the AFP. There's nothing right about that.
*I know that wasn't your quote, but I quoted it from your response.
Karina Keisler, the Executive General Manager of Corporate Affairs at NBN Co, tweeted on Friday the staff was just following the instructions of the AFP.
There is no way that the AFP said to this guy, "Make sure you pass those pics onto your bosses and the Liberal Party."
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Lets see your name for the record.
I don't know that it is illegal.
Seriously?? This person is a representative of the entity that called the AFP to investigate leaks that NBN Co claimed are theft of its IP. This person has photographed documents they had no right nor responsibility to photograph, and has dissemenated them to other sources. How is this any less illegal than the "illegal" behaviour that NBN called the AFP about? Its worse given these documents are under parliamentary privilege and are said to be unrelated to NBN Co leaks. Its stealing � plain and simple.
In another thread, you are bleating on about leaks damaging NBN Co and favouring third parties, but when its potentially Labors NBN policy that has been leaked, you dont have a problem with the benefit that can be derived by third parties of access to such documents prior to their release. Hypocritical much?
Labor sources eh? Not willing to put their name on the record!
Typical � deflection from the real issue.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
There is no way that the AFP said to this guy, "Make sure you pass those pics onto your bosses and the Liberal Party."
or said
"Hey mate, get your phone out and photograph anything you want, and you dont need to let us know what you took pics of � go nuts"
How can the LCP release it to the media without admitting that they obtained it from the raided documents?
Particularly so IF Labor (now) has the originals in a very secure place with limited access to other 'lesser' Labor-ites.
They do not have to release it. What it gives them is the opportunity to NOT appear flatfooted.
If NBN Co can track down the leaker then that helps stop any commercial damages that NBN Co may be suffering.
How come? Was it just CiC for the "leaker"?
Also, what commercial damage would be suffered if the documents were made public? Is there some hidden entity that NBNCo are courting to hop in with????
Is there some hidden entity that NBNCo are courting to hop in with????
not hidden, just CiC
*e*s*r*
is the best guess
*p*u* or *P* at a long shot
You wanted quotes from alp for "do it once, do it right, do it with fibre" , and your still not happy..
Nah only happy when billions of $$$ squandered on a half arsed unreliable internet for the masses.
They couldn't give a toss about progress and the ever growing digital economy.
Will you two just find a room!
Meanwhile, in reality � this now has legs and is not only getting people talking about the MTM, it's also highlighting the mismanagement under Malcolm.
How can someone be trusted to run the country if they can't even manage 1 infrastructure project right?
Repeat after me � "It's all Labor's fault" x 10,000.
I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
But not by alp , which you are insinuating.. they were stolen by nbn staffers ..
They were taken without anybody's permission
They were COPIED without anyone's permission...there is a HUGE difference.
Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest
What sort of proof would you accept? I think you mean to ask in what way this information dissemination to the public about their investment will financially injure NBN Co...
But not by alp , which you are insinuating.. they were stolen by nbn staffers ..
their is no proof that they were stolen they may have been duplicated which is not theft.
Only a court can deem anything stolen.
Up until then "allegedly stolen" should be used by everyone including Malcolm Turnbull QC MP, who should damn well know due process
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
Now how is it that you have left the LNP Govt out of that list... they have lots of questions to ask particularly as to why they are not do their job as Taxpayer representatives and mismanaging their portfolios or not even doing anything at all. The Minister responsible for AFP (who is that actually?) has many questions to answer about the raid itself � incompetence ?... illegalities of taking and distribution of photos?...breaches of parliamentary privilege?....
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
NO!! if your LNP mates were doing their job they should be furious and investigating, on behalf of taxpayers and NBN Co what the hell happened and asking why they were not told � total incompetence of Fifield and Brandis who locked into arse protection mode .... or deception mode
Labor should not have publicly questioned the AFP's timing
You must be is such a state of shock and fear you've slipped into lala fantasy land or alternatively stop that tranquilising medication � you are on another planet....
I'm still waiting on Jason Clare's plan to deliver better broadband quicker and at an affordable price.
I'll bet you are!! That's why the raid was undertaken wasn't it? � Patience Kingy ...your time will come
...thanks for revealing your true alliance. No wonder we cannot get sense in. Its going to be like this the whole election campaign and beyond, won't it?
When I say "us" I'm talking about the people of Australia.
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost. I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter.
When I say "us" I'm talking about the people of Australia.
Hah, as if you speak for me. How dare you think I will ally myself with any party.
I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter.
You're saying that Turnbull's lies are more plausible than an unannounced policy from the ALP?
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest
Were they stolen/taken?
Show me where it says that.
They were leaked � by nbn staff!
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
25Mbps to all by 2016 for $29.5 billion ring a bell?
Do I need to repeat it a couple more times?
The LNP have no track record on this!
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
No, no, no .... the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition are doing a spectacular job all by themselves.
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
"IT'S ALL LABOR'S FAULT".
It's like a mantra for LNP supporters isn't it Kingee. Does your wife complain when you continuously mumble that in your sleep?
Very vague and extremely cynical I would say GMZ. Labor should not treat us as if we don't know anything.
Ahhh the mutual backslapping.
We know that Turnbull et al have been keeping the truth of their MTM failures from the public.
I agree Queeg this is just disgraceful behaviour by the LNP Government.
Labor's suggestions that the AFP are goons acting for the Liberal party are loopy
Ohh Kingee can you please find the quote for this? Nahh didn't think so. Still making stuff up.
Who knows? But it's very petulant behaviour from Labor.
Maybe that's the reason why the search took so long because Labor staffers kept dragging their feet.
Please see previous comment of "IT'S ALL LABOR'S FAULT".
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
Which is all the sort of information that Quigley and NBNCo routinely put up on the NBNCo website. But Turnbull, Fifield and Morrow have to hide the truth about the clusterf^*k they have created. How about some transparency Kingee ... true transparency and there would have been no need for any leaks.
How many times does the AFP commissioner have to say that the AFP was responsible for the timing of the raids?
There are really only 2 possibilities...
1. The AFP Commissioner is inept enough to schedule this for the middle of an election on his own (I hope that isn't true)
2. There is some political intimidation involved
NBN Co says that he fully complied with AFP direction.
He illegally photographed and then forwarded PP docs to the NBNCo.
Either AFP is incompetent and gave him wrong instructions or he committed an offence.
Which one is it?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It's very common for the AFP to bring in assistance
No probs with that but it is very apparent the assistant was either running the show or not supervised � neither position is tenable.
this very serious matter that has embroiled the ALP who are now trying to hide parliament priveldge.
ALP is not hiding anything...Smart enough to claim PP to prevent irresponsible actions perhaps...the NBN docs are all in public domain since December (?) what's the problem...are there other more damning docs (to NBN Co and LNP govt that is) at hand maybe?
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
I'd check the facts on that Kingy...there are particular reqs with PP sealed docs I believe..... your assumption is not correct.
When Labor says they'll roll out more fibre then they should specify the extent of the fibre footprint and the cost.
And when Labor requested the information 2 months ago from Government, it should have been given instead of waiting until the day of the election calling...
I have faith that their small target strategy won't fool the Australian voter
Interesting...yet when Turnbull told bald-faced lies prior to the last election, and every techo in the country called them out for the lies they were, the Australian Voter was easily fooled. So you think that by telling the truth, the ALP are on the wrong track?
It's disgraceful that the LNP put their operative in and then got him to take pictures as part of an AFP raid � this is the level of discussion we now have in this thread.
Would the 2 LNP supporters please stop posting opinions as facts � it isn't fooling anyone and is getting tiring.
1. The AFP Commissioner is inept enough to schedule this for the middle of an election on his own (I hope that isn't true)
The sealed documents won't speed the investigation...will they...
2. There is some political intimidation involved
The raids involved offices of the Opposition yet the MSM were left alone...
As Turnbull said that's just shameful.
As with everything else, and particularly NBN, those that know him well know to read the opposite of what he says....common for snake oil salesmen types
I can pretty much guarantee
Do you have a scoop on the proceeds from the raid Kingy eh? eh? Copies of illegal photos?
Keep waiting KIngy , you will find out when you are told...
Which one is it?
In a statement, the AFP said it believed it had acted appropriately and in accordance with the law in raids, saying the NBN staff were assisting with document verficiation.
"Taking photos was part of this verification process," the statement said.
"These employees were under the direction and supervision of AFP officers at all times during the search warrant."
http://www.abc.ne
Given the documents were under parliamentary privilege, I'd say that shows the AFP is incompetent.
Maybe that MTMCo/LNP operative fancied himself as comparable to a Watergate plumber in stealing opposition material.
It seems to me he deserves the same as what the Watergate plumbers got.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
This is not true, I don't know how many times I need to post the AFP policy on this but the policy is for them to be sealed in audit bags and delivered to the clerk of the senate, procedure then gives a cooling of period for the MP or senator to withdraw their claim of privilege. If they indicate that they wish to pursue the claim of parliamentary privilege it is then handled by parliamentary court or the given house that member belongs to, to rule whether parliamentary privilege applies. If the ruling is that it does, the AFP don't get the documents, end of question. If they could just search through the documents potentially compromising investigations by senate committees, there would be absolutely no point in the procedure even existing.
There's a lot of wild speculation on Whirlpool damaging the reputation of the AFP, NBN Co and the Coalition.
The AFP have damaged themselves (again). They don't need anyone else to help them.
That speculation is a direct result of the Labor party.
The commentary is a direct result of the AFP bungle, NBN playing politics, and the Libs trying desperately to create a scandal to try and shift focus away from their failing in the polls. Labor are supposed to be the victims, but the Libs couldn't even manage to get that right. More egg on face for Turnbull and Co.
Normally this type of social media chatter wouldn't matter, but it's different this time because we're in the middle of an election.
If the media wasn't tipped off, and if the AFP hadn't done some dodgy stuff, then it wouldn't have had the oxygen it has received. There is plenty here to question. The fact that you are ok with what has happened speaks volumes.
Labor should not have publicly questioned the AFP's timing of the raids or publicly demanded that documents be destroyed. That's very poor behaviour on Labor's part. Labor has nothing to do with it. The raids should never have happened. There have been much more serious leaks happen elsewhere with no AFP involvement. This is just another example for the Libs desperately trying to shut down public debate and silence the media and it blew up in the Libs face.
What's even more frustrating is that this does nothing for the NBN debate
Correct. Shutting down channels that provide real information about the MTM rollout and how badly it is going cant be any good for the debate. Debate cannot be had when facts are unavailable and that is exactly where Turnbull and Co is trying to get to . Its increasingly obvious that the Libs and NBN Co are seriously scared of the truth getting out. Best thing that can happen is for Labor to get in, show the reality of how badly the MTM is going and what a daft idea it was and then try and sort it all out. Wouldn't like to be in Clares shoes having that task!
I'm still waiting on Jason Clare's plan to deliver better broadband quicker and at an affordable price. I am surprised you weren't on the top of the list to receive the illegal photos the NBN Co staffer took that are purported to contain some of that detail.
Once again � lets blame the ALP � as always!
I laughed at this one. The straw clutching is reaching new levels. No one can seriously believe the raids were Labor's fault. It makes absolutely no sense. There is a word starting with t that best explains those sort of posts.
Yes, the timing of the AFP raids is shameful as is the conduct of the raids.
as is Turnbull's shameful lack of leadership, honesty and integrity not only with NBN but across the board... Turnbull has forgotten he is the Prime Minister of the people of this country and they expect so much more of those qualities from someone holding that office....
Having the job of PM is so very different from doing it properly... its more than ego self massaging, it is the honour and privilege of public service...you know the words every person that gets to be put in the role of PM says the day they get it at the TV event broadcast to the whole country.
If one checks the polls Turnbull's trajectory is heading down rapidly now for this very reason.
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
LOL, your posts seem very desperate. Its obvious by now your agenda.
The documents were leaked from within NBNCo.
There was no way Conroy could have got them, unless they were given to him anonymously.
You agree with everything Turnbull says, doesn't mean his right.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It's very common for the AFP to bring in assistance from federal agencies such as the ATO or nbn in this case to investigate this very serious matter that has embroiled the ALP who are now trying to hide parliament priveldge.
You and Kingforce don't even seem to understand what the raid is about. NBN Co staff have allegedly done the wrong things by leaking documents. The AFP have ballsed up the investigation. Labor has had nothing to do with the leak or the AFP's farcical handling of the issue.
Once police enter the premises they can search anything they want even what the ALP claim to be sealed documents, is the ALP hiding something?
Demonstrating your lack of understanding again Raoul. The AFP have been caught out not doing their job properly. Pretty simple.
Questions for you, who allowed the NBN Co staffer to take pictures and send them to whoever they wanted? Was that allowed under the warrant? Was that allowed under AFP document collection procedures? Who tipped off the media so they were there before the AFP even arrived? Why does parliamentary privilege not apply to documents in a senators office?
I dare Jason Clare and all of the Labor party to use that as a slogan at the election!
As if they would take any notice of anything you say Kingy.....really...your delusion to self importance is ......just is...
Turnbull said that documents were stolen from NBN Co
So if that is the case why have two NBN employees been stood down....?
Define stolen please...
Given the documents were under parliamentary privilege, I'd say that shows the AFP is incompetent.
As per their own admission.
But this sorry LNP/AFP/NBNCo mess doesn't end there...:
Opposition Senate leader Penny Wong said she wanted an explanation from government-owned NBN Co about who saw the photos before their destruction.
We know that those photos were disseminated, those photos were sent at least to NBN, but we don't know who they were sent to. The Government should make clear who they were sent to," she said.
"The Government should tell Australians who got the photos and the Government should make clear they've been destroyed."
Mark Dreyfus, the guy who wants to be Attorney General, went around initially questioning the timing of the AFP raids.
Various media outlets were named in the warrant. Why were only Labor offices and Labor staff homes searched? Who tipped off the press so they could be there before the AFP arrived? Why haven't the AFP been called to investigate other more important leaks to do with national security etc, but they get called on Turnbulls pet project hat is proving nothing but an embarrassment for him?
People are right to ask questions about timing and due process. You would be screaming bloody murder if it were the other way around and it had been Labor who had been seen to initiate the raid.
Still waiting on Labor's NBN plan by the way.
Isn't it telling that despite all the indignation from Labor that they still have no idea how to improve the MTM?
These 2 statements prove how desperate the Liberal supporters are to beat up an argument. First sentence you claim to not know what Labor is going to do. Very next sentence you claim to know that they cant improve the MTM. You cant have it both ways.
How many times does the AFP commissioner have to say that the AFP was responsible for the timing of the raids?
Were they responsible for ensuring the media was there to make sure it made the news?
They were taken without anybody's permission. Until you can prove that those documents were taken in the public interest then I would agree with Turnbull and say that they were stolen.
LOL, Turnbull is a Lawyer. To say something like that shows how sad he is.
The documents were leaked within NBNco and given to the ALP. To turn around and say they were stolen? If he really is a lawyer, his a pretty shit one. Try putting that through the courts.
The desperation from MT and the LNP is really showing. Bring on the implosion.
The AFP should be allowed to do their job.
Who stopped them doing their job? Based on the media coverage, (who tipped off the media again?), it looked like they went in and did their job. Its concerning that you aren't worried about how badly they did their job and how poorly they control documents they are supposed to be collecting.
Labor's suggestions that the AFP are goons acting for the Liberal party are loopy.
Labors suggestions are that NBN co were ordered to call them in by the Libs. That has a lot of credence, given the timing and how things have played out.
Also, even Sky news has ran a story with a headline that concedes that Mr. S. may face charges.
And rightly so. The AFP handling of this raid has been appalling and the NBN Co staffer knew that he shouldn't be taking pictures and sending them off to other NBN staffers. Its simple common sense. There needs to be an investigation into the whole mess and charges laid for theft of documents, and illegally disseminating documents, just as a start.
Also, even Sky news has ran a story with a headline that concedes that Mr. S. may face charges.
Been trying to find that, but nothing yet.
The desperation from MT and the LNP is really showing.
Other than sheer spite, I can't see a reason for the LNP to orchestrate something like this. I mean, it's obvious that they have, but desperation? I'm not sold. They've achieved their goal; we're not getting FTTP for at least another generation, thus extending the monopoly on all forms of Australian media and communication of the LNP's donors. I see this as nothing more than a final "screw you, we won" from the LNP, rather than a last-ditch effort to stop Labor from rolling out an FTTP NBN. That dream is dead for the next 25 years. The best we can hope for now is a mix of FTTdp and DOCSIS 3.0.
Would the 2 LNP supporters please stop posting opinions as facts ...
Is there a term commonly used on the internet to describe this sort of behaviour?
NBN raids: how independent are the federal police? � Behind the Lines podcast with Kristina Keneally
http://www.theguar
Been trying to find that, but nothing yet.
search with nbn staffer ;) theres 2 copies of the article, 1 deleted and 1 live
ELECTION LIVE: NBN staffer may face jail
Yep thanks
Http://news/top-stories/2016
Is there a term commonly used on the internet to describe this sort of behaviour?
Astroturfers
404
That link wasn't quite right, but found the story is here:
What do the lnp supporters think of that?
The lnp operative might get jail
Mod note
We need to take the AFP raids discussion to the relevant thread! /forum-replies.cfm?t=2532259
That dream is dead for the next 25 years.
unless enough people, like you, vote Labor of course
Other than sheer spite, I can't see a reason for the LNP to orchestrate something like this. I mean, it's obvious that they have, but desperation? I'm not sold. They've achieved their goal; we're not getting FTTP for at least another generation, thus extending the monopoly on all forms of Australian media and communication of the LNP's donors. I see this as nothing more than a final "screw you, we won" from the LNP, rather than a last-ditch effort to stop Labor from rolling out an FTTP NBN. That dream is dead for the next 25 years. The best we can hope for now is a mix of FTTdp and DOCSIS 3.0.
Whether we get FTTP or not is moot.
They don't want anything MTM related exposed prior to the election. Its pretty obvious for the last 3 years, no media coverage. The desperation stems from trying to keep a lid on things despite the heavy handed tactics going via the AFP.
It must be really bad the whole MTM project, from financials down to rollout management.
The lnp operative might get jail
yes just another silly deluded low level lib supporter that takes the fall for the big wigs.
It must be really bad the whole MTM project, from financials down to rollout management.
There was no conceivable scenario in which it would be anything but a total shambles. It's 2016 (and a half), let's take a look at how the Coalition's promise of "Cheaper, faster, better" is turning out...
Cheaper
Costs have blown out as the amount of copper that would need replacing was severely underestimated, as well as the ever-increasing cost of maintaining a positively ancient copper network. Additionally, advances in FTTP now price it cheaper per premises than FTTN, negating the initial touted savings made by switching in the first place.
Faster (in both rollout and speed)
Rollout: Rollout wise, it's 2016 and vast swathes of the country still haven't got access to "at least 25Mbps".
Speed: Speed wise, the few suburbs that DO have FTTN are reporting only marginal increases in speeds due to necessary copper repair work not being undertaken, a lack of backhaul, or just the plain under-provisioning of nodes.
Better (both "better than what we have now" and "better than the other mob")
Better than what we have now: See Faster.
Better than the other mob: This doesn't even need explaining. 93% FTTP/7% wireless is, and always was, the superior option.
Again, I fail to see how the MTM could have been better for this country in any way, shape or form. As with many infrastructure plans in this country, it was merely a battle of ideologies and a hate for "the other mob" coming to town with the better plan first.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Once police enter the premises they can search anything they want even what the ALP claim to be sealed documents, is the ALP hiding something?
If police enter any premise with a warrant everything in a premise can be searched even the so called sealed documents where criminal behaviour can be concealed or hidden.
You are full of it, the agency must comply with the terms and conditions of the warrant. They can not step outside that, no matter what load of rubbish you try to trot out to support your "friends".
I can pretty much guarantee that they won't return to a full fibre rollout.
No you can't.
...moved to other thread
No you can't.
Kingy's got a copy of ALP docs if he is so sure.... send the AFP out eh?
The challenge for Labor may well be to keep the NBN concept in govt control and stop it being handed over to Telstra. The real problem with what Turnbull has done is effectively corner NBN Co into a high risk position dependent on Telstra to survive. So many contracts for Greenfields, FTTN and HFC builds are via Telstra, HFC future is controlled by Telstra ...and Telstra have a $22B+ (?) facility waiting in the wings.
A less than successful build of FTTN (with associated bad publicity) not Telstra's fault of course, and unsatisfied customers supports the argument for NBN Co to be handed off, sold off, whatever. Telstra can make sure that happens with the level of control it has over NBN Co's success or failure.
Labor would have a huge challenge to stop that, there is nothing more sure that NBN Co will go if LNP remain in power and continue to hand it off by stealth.
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
and all the internal "proof" from nbn� documents may now be not able to be used till after the senate sits after the election
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
Finding whistle blowers was just a bonus
If the Libs are using section 70 of the crimes act for that, then we have skipped the "banana republic" and have descended into the realms of despots
Be interesting to see how labor announce/play their NBN policy. Either way I feel they've got an uphill battle getting past all the FUD the LNP have throw about, that and getting people to accept that all the figures the LNP have been throwing out are inaccurate at best...
The uphill battle isnt the LNP, as Christopher Pyne showed, they have no idea.
The uphill battle is the mainstream media. No matter what the Labor party comes out with, News Limited will attack it with full force.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Wrong on all counts.
No matter what the Labor party comes out with, News Limited will attack it with full force.
Labor don't need to make any NBN statements at all, News in particular invent stuff themselves even with anonymous 'experts' sometimes... and these often sound like they come straight off the LNP song sheet...or is it vice versa?
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
Finding whistle blowers was just a bonus
If the Libs are using section 70 of the crimes act for that, then we have skipped the "banana republic" and have descended into the realms of despots
I'm sure the ALP have backups of the work they have been working on. I just hope they can move on and expose it in time prior to the election.
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims abou tit being on budget, on time and working perfectly
bingo sir. occams razor applies here.
I'm sure the ALP have backups of the work they have been working on. I just hope they can move on and expose it in time prior to the election.
Of course they would � but not own up to it. Rewording and approximation of figures rather than direct quotes and who can prove a relationship back to original docs? There are ways around it..
Can just hear the likes of Turnbull, Cormann and Morrison goading and demanding the source of the NBN figures quoted by Labor and deriding no source quoted.... no-one wins particularly you and I nor the public in general
Maybe this was the sole intent of the raid, to stop Labor using nbn�'s own documents to shoot down Liberal claims
If this was the primary aim, or one of several aims, it clearly demonstrates that the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
If so, then so much for their claim that broadband is not a significant issue this election. They wouldn't put themselves in such a vulnerable position if they didn't think it worth it. Therefore Labor should seize their advantage and run with it as long and as hard as they can.
Did anyone see Pyne's performance on Q&A last night when asked about the NBN? He was queried on the delays and cost blowouts that switching to the MTM has created. He gave the form response of "cheaper, faster, better" and the whole audience just laughed in his face. Albanese looked like he was about to crack up himself. I know that Q&A audiences usually aren't really that representative of the Australian public at large due to the mostly Labor/Greens voting audience, however, I think last night demonstrated that the jig really is up for the LNP. The public are starting to see through their crap and are having none of it. Even in my own personal experience, loyal LNP voters are beginning to understand that they were essentially scammed by Abbott and Turnbull in regards to the NBN. I've had to explain to a few people that they won't be getting any sort of increase in speeds or reliability any time soon. These people, myself included, live in the HFC footprint but are unable to be provisioned with an HFC service. I'm stuck with 6Mbps down/1Mbps up with a family of four, one of whom telecommutes. Usually they come out of the conversation feeling betrayed and outraged. Hopefully it's enough to change their votes.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
We must capitalise on this and get the NBN at the forefront of this election. Publicly decry the MTM and expose the LNP for the charlatans they are. Even if a handful people listen, it'll make a difference.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Clearly demonstrates that the LNP is running scared about any public attention about the MTM.
Certainly is
so much for their claim that broadband is not a significant issue this election
Pyne's performance on Q&A last night
He gave the form response of "cheaper, faster, better" and the whole audience just laughed in his face
You missed the comment that Australia doesn't need really fast broadband � and he's innovation minister???? BIG fail there!! Problem is that conservative politics actually believes that and most of their Business brothers, sisters and cousins tell them that as well. They fear spending money to upgrade and fail to recognise the competitive edge they can get ie. don't see it as an investment....yet they don't flich the cost has gone from Labor's $43B to $56B+ for LNPs version --how come?. If they themselves don't understand it then they won't let anyone else move ahead with it.
loyal LNP voters are beginning to understand that they were essentially scammed by Abbott and Turnbull in regards to the NBN
All posts demonstrate why the Raid was undertaken � shut down any info that may not be favorable to current nbn regime and/or LNP govt...and maybe pick up Labor's NBN Plan in the process
Did anyone see Pyne's performance on Q&A last night
Yes, and also Albos. Both of them haven't a damn clue about the point of the NBN. The whole segment was an embarrassment.
Anything Labor comes out with will be better than the current MTM Fraudband.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Oh definitely :)
The MTM is the biggest vulnerability that the LNP have. I don't know what Labor is waiting for. They should be hammering this for all it's worth, just like Turnbull did against them before the last election. There are so many angles just begging to be used.
They do a little but nothing like as much as they could. If Albanese and Shorten don't even understand the point of universal fibre, and various talking heads when interviewed let points go through to the catcher instead of rebutting them, they are leaving their greatest tactical weapon behind.
The funny thing we would have been better off if both parties did nothing and if they never thought of the NBN. Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices. Other countries around the world have better broadband then us because the government kept there noses out. Most other Countires that have tired to introduce a NBN type have also fallen behind as it removed all of the little and large carriers wanting to build there own networks. Back in 2008 there was a lot of telecom type project canceled because the NBN was coming but never turned up. Labor or lib they both f-Ickes it up
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
This has been shown to be wrong. Telstra were not doing anything. The telecommunications policy had been botched for ten to 15 years before the NBN came on the table. Market forces would have left Australia in a continuing telecommunications black hole. Unfortunately MTM will not lift us out of the black hole.
. Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices
Telstra has been holding the pie for too long they put profits before progress, they let the copper and hfc network deteriorate.
We had a chance to finally catch up but the LNP put their grotty noses into it and we are back to square one.
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
I think we would all have Telstra ~20gig 4g for $100 a month, and regional could have dial-up. Public utilities should stay public as far as I'm concerned.
The original NBN would have helped pull this country out of the mines and become one of the world leaders in research, tech, education, etc ..... And put everyone (almost) on a level playing field, filling in most of the digital divide.
LNP's MTM has done the exact opposite.
These were the reasons the ALP wanted to create the NBN in the first place.
I don't see how we can even refer to what the LNP are giving us now as a "national broadband network".
I think we would all have Telstra ~20gig 4g for $100 a month, and regional could have dial-up. Public utilities should stay public as far as I'm concerned.
No we wouldn't. Without competition, Telstra's prices would remain unchallenged, and we'd all be paying out the nose.
One of the points of the NBN was to build infrastructure that wasn't controlled by a commercial monopoly.
and we'd all be paying out the nose.
Like we do now (with Telstra) on their network of bandaids and string?
One of the points of the ( original (I'll add that) NBN was to build infrastructure that wasn't controlled by a commercial monopoly.
Totally agree.
The ALP should use the 2013 policy brochure against the LNP � 29.5 billion for 25mbs for all by 2016!
Even Albo didn't use that line on Q&A.
He seemed to say there was a Tasmania promise for 2016.. not going to be met
Full rollout complete by 2019.. now 2020
And didn't push back at all when it was said a FTTP rollout would stretch to 2024.
Agree that 'Pyne' doesn't have a clue about the NBN
Even Albo didn't use that line on Q&A.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't.
Full rollout complete by 2019.
The promise was for 25Mbps to all premises by the end of 2016.
We had project in the stages of planning then NBN came along and put a stop to it. No carrier is will to send to much money on infrusture as they know NBN can stomp on it. NBN has killed off all carriers wanting to build there own network not because it cheaper but because now there hands are tie and they are not allowed to compete with the NBN. Carriers .e.g. Tpg roll out was stopped? Why? Because they can do it cheaper. Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything. NBN there is still no sla type services for business. Labor fu.ked it up then the Libs came along and made a total mess of it too.
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
They didn't form decades so what makes you think they would now....
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
This is unlikely. Telstra didn't deploy adsl2 until accc forced them to allow other providers to install adsl2 equipment in their exchanges. Telstra only deployed HFC in response to the Optus rollout and stopped as soon as Optus stopped. Telstra wasn't going to deploy fttn unless the government chipped in a lot of money and were allowed to lock out other providers. Telstra has left their fixed network to rot so they can focus on their hugely profitable mobile network and continue overcharging for their slow bdsl services. Telstra 'only' make $2b/yr profit, they would not roll out a $50b network. Any competitors would be met with a repeat of the Optus overbuild, killing their investment.
Have a look at all nationwide infrastructure, roads, water pipes, electricity networks, the original copper network, they are always built by government. The original plan was on track to make a return, even with the problems it had. The current mtm is overpriced junk and is going to cost us more because the return is much less.
And didn't push back at all when it was said a FTTP rollout would stretch to 2024
That's because it's not something you can accurately calculate, putting a date on it just creates more enemy ammunition.
Honestly so long as you are creating the right infrastructure or policies for the medium/long term, time and money is almost irrelevant.
Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything.
Can you please specify the privately funded national infrastructure project you are comparing the NBN (or the MTM) to?
Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything.
Just like the electricity networks that had 60 billion spent gold plating then and forcing electricity prices to increase 500% in 10 years.
Oh wait they are owned by private enterprise.
The fact that Telstra has had 20 years to do something and nothing has happened shows private enterprise won't do it.
What state plan are you talking about?
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2016/s4468293.htm
NBN customers complain of poor connections and speeds years after being connected
Mr Jackson has sent PM a 16 page document detailing his dealings with Telstra and the NBN.
His case was continually referred between the two companies, and he claims he struggled to get them to cooperate with one other.
Mr Jackson took his case to his local MP and to the telecommunications ombudsman. On the 13th of this month, his internet service was finally restored.
Great collaboration team NBN!
Challenge to the likely incoming Federal Labor Government. What's your plan to minimise these sorts of problems occurring when you likely inherit the MTM?
Market forces would have done something by now if the were left to there own devices.
'Market forces' would have seen the telcos competing with each other for the high population density areas � 'cherry-picking' the most profitable geographic locations.
"Market forces' would have seen the government pick up the tab for the rest of the country.
then the Libs came along and made a total mess of it
Totally agree with you on that point.
The fact that Telstra has had 20 years to do something and nothing has happened shows private enterprise won't do it.
Indeed they had all this time but they did a massive SFA, charge the consumers like wounded bulls just to have the privilege to put up with rubbish service in the fixed line services.
Again profits before progress and left us in the dark.
Telstra has had 20 years to do something and nothing has happened shows private enterprise won't do it.
Telstra's lack of investment and what appears to be very poor Risk Management is doing the Federal Opposition's a lot of favor's in decreasing their confidence in the competence of the Private Sector's competitive pressures to ensure that Australia's Infrastructure is at least reliable enough, let alone cheap or fast enough.
Telstra CEO Andy Penn says he�s reading the comments of customers frustrated with the company�s repeated internet failures.
The big danger here (not for Telstra), is that if the design of the MTM and strategies of NBN Co results in Telstra increasing it's market share and increasing the barriers to more easily changing or trying out new RSP's, the resulting lack of competitive pressure just adds as another disincentive for Telstra to invest in it's network to improve broadband services, as opposed to investing in acquiring new Australian customers, investing overseas, investing in non-Broadband products, investing in content.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
All the boardband reports you see from overseas and compair to here. Most if not all oversea country's cherry pick... Most countryies around the world once you get out of the city you get nothing.
Cherry pick first make it profitable then go bush I say. This model works well plus keeps isp's cashed up for up grades and profits help the bush roll out. It should. Not be done in reverse order. People in the bush have there benefits just like people in the city. How do you think ISP could afford there ADSL 2 roll out with no govement handouts?
At the end of the day it's going to be a network built with tax payers money which will be running at a loss when around 80% of the pollution really don't care if they are on ADSL or 4g or NBN. Just look at the NBN take up rates if it was so important the take up rate would be far higher. This comes back again to cherry picking. Labor was rolling NBN. In areas that had cable thus people did not want to change. Thus you had other areas whole estates stuck on old cmux with ADSL1 still missing out. If they did those areas first the take up rate would be much higher the media would be reporting what a great job every on is doing. But we want to put it in other areas were the need is not so great. Cherry pick I say. This is the whole reason why NBN is failing. No busniess going to market without a plan to sell there product to the masses without cherry picking.
Cherry pick first make it profitable then go bush I say.
Cherry picking is profitable for them so that is why they do it, when it suits but only to the degree and timing that it suits.
When they have all the ripe cherries, they stop because it is uneconomic to do more.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
It won't get broadband to the whole country and we will end up paying more
The dilemma that Federal Labor are likely to inherit is one of whether to defer, the HFC build in areas like mine where there is already uncongested 100/2 HFC from Optus for those of us not in MDU's, and to instead focus resources on getting next door suburb MDU's with crap and congested unuseable during peak hours mobile broadband from Optus/Telstra/Vodafone, no Optus HFC lead ins to the MDU's, and congested unusable during peak hours ADSL2+.
Federal Labor are going to have to come up with plan/policy for this and actually implement it solve this issue with underserved locations. No 6-12 months of delay. Just do it. Get fibre into the MDU basements wherever possible for starters. Either work with someone like TPG to do this or outlaw TPG from doing it. Collaborate. Just get it done and done quickly, without compromising on quality too much.
When they have all the ripe cherries, they stop because it is uneconomic to do more.
not uneconomic, just not super profitable
once upon time companies would charge the same price for an item in regional Austrlia as they would in the cities.
This meant they had to charge everyone slightly more, so the "cheap to supply areas" subsidised the "dear to supply areas"
Then along came the rise of accountants runing companies and the analysis of every person and itme into either a profit or a cost centre.
So they started to charge areas prices based on the cost of delivering it to that specific area which technically meant the "easy to supply area" got the item cheaper, but I don't think that really happened, just the company made more per item and difficult to supply areas were either charged more or not supplied at all.
And then we got corruption of this, the 2 major supermarkets charging different prices in different areas of the cities and in the case of fresh fruit and vegetables delivering different quality goods to those areas. Funny thing is, that fruit and vegetables were being charged more in the poorer suburbs for lesser quality goods than teh so called areas that could afford to pay more.
If you supply a product over a wide area,either state based or national, the price should be th esame everywhere and so should the delivery of service.
That is what is wrong with cherry picking
and speaking of fruit and vegeatables and even meat, why is it dearer in the rural areas of Australia where it is produced than in the cities, why, because of "cherry picking of supply"
If they did those areas first the take up rate would be much higher
Due to the mandatory cut over that take up rate is going to be high.
Example http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/sa/3BAC this service area has passed disconnection and has an uptake of 78%
http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/sa/2ARM is at 57%
Both of these areas are consistent with the national broadband penetration for the types of area they are once you take into account mobile broadband houses.
Cherry pick I say.
Cherry picking means entirely avoiding areas they deem unprofitable.
And no, the free market was not going to provide, Telstra said "we'll provide, but this is a stick up" Telstra wanted the government to give them funding to upgrade the national network and to be the sole provider who could sell through the government funded upgrades. This was never going to be acceptable.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
Cherry picking is a major problem because it creates large digital divide of "have's" and "have not's", especially when it comes to the suburbs. This has been proven with ISP's and their ADSL dslam rollout's, and the hfc cable rollouts with Telstra & Optus. The areas without any form of fixed line broadband (RIM port hell areas for example) have been simply ignored with no ISP's willing to spend the money on new infrastructure as it's not profitable enough for them to do so. This is the main reason why Labor created the NBN.
Most countryies around the world once you get out of the city you get nothing.
Cherry pick first make it profitable then go bush I say.
You have contradicted yourself. The big problem with cherry picking is that when you are using profit driven motives only to decide the outcome, those in the lower profit/no profit areas get nothing. This has been proven time and time again in Australia. It always comes down to government incentives to drive the investment in the bush, and even then, Telstra swallows the majority of the funding because they already have infrastructure in place to leverage off, which had also been funded by taxpayers.
This model works well plus keeps isp's cashed up for up grades and profits help the bush roll out.
It doesn't work well. That has been proven over many decades in Australia. It just creates a digital divide between the overserved city areas, and the regions and rural areas who get nothing. This was one of the reasons Labor proposed 93% FTTP � to get true ubiquity, and remove the digital divide as far as possible. Turnbull has undone that, and firmly re-entrenched the digital divide again.
How do you think ISP could afford there ADSL 2 roll out with no govement handouts? They didn't get government handouts, and so the investment didn't happen for a very very long time, if at all. You clearly don't live in a regional or rural area.
This is the main reason why Labor created the NBN.
Yup was 93% country will be fibre and the rest 7% fixed wireless.
Well that was the real NBN not the pathetic MTM.
Thanks LNP screwed everyone again,
uncongested 100/2 HFC from Optus
Uncogested and Optus do not belong in the same sentence � mine slows to 3mbs.
If they fixed it up so I could get a constant 30mbs (or 100) then I would be happy.
They need to fix those suburbs which do not have any broadband first � give them fttdp and allow an upgrade to fttp for $500-1000.
No busniess going to market without a plan to sell there product to the masses without cherry picking.
It is not efficient to prop up private enterprise by encouraging business to rely on cherry-picking and government handouts for their survival.
Nor is it efficient to use the AFP in a foolish, quixotic quest to locate allegedly "commercial in confidence" documents, regardless of the potential embarrassment the documents might cause to nbnTM, and/or nbnco's builders and contractors, and/or the Liberal-National "Market Forces" Coalition.
Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything.
Does that extend to roads, railways, water supplies etc?
Government project may be not be ideal, but private projects are only build when there is a profit to be made and that involves delivering minimal service for maximum cost, or not building at all.
I take the alternative view, the privatisation of Telsta was bungled, yes it was inefficient when it was a government monopoly. But it remained inefficient as a private monopoly and was holding back progress in Telecoms infrastructure as profit can be maximised by keeping the status quo and charging more.
What should probably have been done is to privatise the following as separate companies:-
1) Telstra wireless and mobile.
2) Telstra HFC and pay TV
3) Telstra retail � ADSL, home phone on CAN & reselling services for 1) & 2).
Provision of ADSL and phone services should have been kept as Telstra wholesale in government hands, it is the part of the float that was not attractive.... and could have easily morphed into the NBN with a bit if direction from the government.
Parts 1)..3) above mere probably the more attractive business and would have fetched a good price.
So the original ALP NBN proposal was a response bungled privatisation of Telstra.
The main mistake the ALP made was over selling the project and under estimating the ramp up.
It was getting there before the change of government, I can't remember the exact numbers but with a bit of process improvement we would probably have 80% coverages on FTTH NBN by now.
Especially if the ALP got smart and went with FTTB which they should have done from day 1.
TPG was cherry-picking the FTTB market because the major bungle was the NBN not rolling out FTTB as far and wide as possible ASAP.
Politics came into it as rolling out FTTB first would have been spun as giving the city priority over regional area, but that is they way it should have been done, as the NBN would have quickly obtained a mass of customers to help fund the rest of the rollout.
We had project in the stages of planning then NBN came along and put a stop to it. No carrier is will to send to much money on infrusture as they know NBN can stomp on it.
The carriers had the opportunity to bid for this infrastructure before the NBN was even invented. None of the bids fit the bill, and Telstra excluded itself from the process when Sol Trujillo played brinkmanship with the government (even in defiance of instructions from the Telstra board, who specifically asked him to deliver a competing bid).
They had their opportunity ... the NBN was the result of private enterprise not being able to do it.
So I wouldn't shed many tears about private enterprise wailing about the NBN coming along and "stomping" on them now. They had their shot ... they failed.
why is it dearer in the rural areas of Australia where it is produced than in the cities, why, because of "cherry picking of supply"
Accounting. We used to be charged freight from here to Sydney and back for flour that was grown here;milled here and sold here.
We had project in the stages of planning then NBN came along and put a stop to it. No carrier is will to send to much money on infrusture as they know NBN can stomp on it. NBN has killed off all carriers wanting to build there own network not because it cheaper but because now there hands are tie and they are not allowed to compete with the NBN. Carriers .e.g. Tpg roll out was stopped? Why? Because they can do it cheaper. Government projects just waste money and gold plate everything. NBN there is still no sla type services for business. Labor fu.ked it up then the Libs came along and made a total mess of it too.
The problem is that the carriers will only do the profitable bits. They'll pick and choose regions.
The NBN is to give everyone internet.
If it was just left to go, internet would be forever stuck the way it is now, some areas with good internet, some with average, and a lot with nothing.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
It does nothing to help deliver infrastructure to anything more than select areas in a country, and does plenty to hurt it.
How do you think ISP could afford there ADSL 2 roll out with no govement handouts?
http://whirlpool.net.au/news
http://whirlpool
etc.
etc.
At the end of the day it's going to be a network built with tax payers money which will be running at a loss when around 80% of the pollution really don't care if they are on ADSL or 4g or NBN.
Your figures bear no resemblance to reality.
What's wrong with cherry picking?
It does nothing to help deliver infrastructure to anything more than select areas in a country, and does plenty to hurt it.
Classic example of what's wrong, here:-
http://www.abc.net.au/
Oz telecommunication users get gouged by the commercial providers for profit, and our Gov't puts taxpayers funds towards the mobile network infrastructure.
Oz telecommunication users get gouged by the commercial providers for profit, and our Gov't puts taxpayers funds towards the mobile network infrastructure.
This amount is double the amount Labor will spend connecting those in Tasmania that should have had FTTP by now.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?. I know people on Whirlpool have a greater requirement for Internet services but in the greater scheme of things there is far much more important places the money should go. Hence the reason why I think both parties have got it wrong. The forced up take is only 53% and less then 25% of users take up the higher speeds most of these users would have been better off on the cable/ADSL service they were on. We have been stuck with Telstra for many years there is NO difference between them and NBN Co the different now there is another level of costs.
Thanks Steve
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money
It touches those issues you have just mentioned ... all of them. So when you attempt to put in in a hierarchy by asking whether it's more important ... it's a question that can't be answered. It can cover services in all of those sectors.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
I will tell you this, it is much more important than those damned submarines, what will they provide us?
And don't use the term defence, our only real defence is that were are allied with hte USA and to be honest, that has never been put to the test (thank heavens)
The original NBN was not an entertainment or gaming device, it was a full national multifaceted COMMUNICATIONS network, capabable of supporting many things.
The MTM is a dogs breakfast that will need to be replaced before it is finished, yet it is costing the same as wht FTTP was costed at.
MTM is the WASTE and the money WILL be spent on building it even when it cannot work as claimed
Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?
Having reliable ubiquitous communications infrastructure benefits every one of those fields, and as the NBN would have made a return on investment (and stimulated the economy) there would be more money available for spending on them.
We have been stuck with Telstra for many years there is NO difference between them and NBN Co the different now there is another level of costs.
That statement makes it clear that you don't understand Telstra at all. If you want to educate yourself, investigate the term "vertically integrated monopoly".
Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care
Healthcare, roads, and aged care are all positively impacted by a fast (up and down) and reliable national network infrastructure project.
I would strongly encourage you to read some of the information out there about telehealth. Here's one good one to get you started, Telehealth and the NBN.
Working from home has health benefits (I know this from personal experience, as I am lucky enough to have FTTP NBN and an employer that allows me to work from home every now and then) both for the person working from home and for everyone else on the road. Imagine if 10-15% of people were suddenly empowered to work from home. How much traffic would disappear from our congested roadways? What if 30% were able to work from home? Even if it was only 1-2 days a week.
Aged care, with a combination of remote monitoring, and remote nurse assisted diagnosis, the elderly would be able to stay in their own homes longer, we would have shorter waiting times at GPs. Telehealth can reduce the time people stay in hospital through the same techniques, leading to shorter hospital waiting times and more beds available.
Seems like the same old recyclable nonsense again.
Roads, hospitals etc etc etc
All important as well as a reliable communication and internet sector.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
Of course, your point ignores the the fact that the NBN is supposed to generate an ROI and therefore is off the budget and therefore (for the umpteenth time) the money for the NBN is *NOT* competing with other funding requirements like roads and healthcare!
Seriously man, this has been hashed over back when Labor first put this together...
The forced up take is only 53% and less then 25% of users take up the higher speeds most of these users would have been better off on the cable/ADSL service they were on.
The take up is 53% in a rural community. Which is consistent with the national broadband penetration for rural communities. You quite conveniently ignored the other example of Bacchus Marsh, which while is not a Melbourne suburb, is on the outer edges of Melbourne, and as one of the second release sites, has a 78% take up.
Also "would have been better off on the cable/ADSL service they were on" where the hell does that nonsense come from. Not saying that you are wrong, just that the statistic we are looking at has sweet flap all to do with if their existing services were capable of handing their needs.
s It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?
This is a fallacious argument. You stated that the private sector would have handled it, even though that is proven to not be the case. In fact, the private sector wanted to be given government money to improve broadband. It might seem like I'm talking about an entirely different thing here but I'm not. A government investment like the NBN, or the future fund, or any of the other investment portfolios, that is where the government invests money into a business and gets money back either in the short term or the long term do not rob money from all of those things you mentioned. In fact, all of those things you mentioned bar housing are "on budget" expenses for the federal government, which means they are reported in the budget bottom line, things like the NBN however are not. See the government isn't just handing money to NBN Co and saying go nuts, it is a loan. which means that money comes back, with interest, and then on privatisation the government is the one again that makes more money, just like Telstra did when it was sold off.
I know people on Whirlpool have a greater requirement for Internet services but in the greater scheme of things there is far much more important places the money should go.
A significant proportion of the country disagrees with you.
However, under the Labor NBN, it wasnt costing us anything, it was just borrowing money through the government at record low rates of interest. And paying it back (with a 7% rate of return). It was building a money making asset that would also significantly increase our GDP.
The Liberal NBN? Well, its not going to be able to make a rate of return above the interest, so its going to cost us. Both in paying for it (See hidden cvc charges) and from the government. Thanks to the shit internet it provides (We are now at 60 in the world and falling) � it wont have a noticeable effect on GDP either.
under the Labor NBN, it wasnt costing us anything, it was just borrowing money through the government at record low rates of interest. And paying it back (with a 7% rate of return). It was building a money making asset that would also significantly increase our GDP.
That's been totally lost on these naysayers.. It wasn't going to cost the taxpayer anything, to build the original nbn..
Seems like the same old recyclable nonsense again.
Roads, hospitals etc etc etc
Yes who'd think that a Government could walk and chew gum at the same time ehhh? Government's (well the public service actually) are quite adept at managing multiple programs. I won't even go to the issue that the taxpayer was not funding the NBN program.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
What some people don't see is the fact that a fast and reliable communications network is an essential service nowadays � it's right up there with water and electricity.
Impoverishing Australia's communication network in order to pour money into roads, healthcare, housing and aged care is short-sighted, to say the least.
Impoverishing Australia's communication network in order to pour money into roads, healthcare, housing and aged care is short-sighted, to say the least.
Roads, healthcare, housing and aged care are all just as important. Tax breaks to your mates and a fleet of submarines are not.
Roads, healthcare, housing and aged care are all just as important.
They are all important, but not 'essential services' such as water, electricity, and the communications network.
Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care ...
Ooo, aged care. My favourite. An FTTP service with four NTD ports would allow the government to have a reliable, separate service at an elderly person's home to support heat/motion monitoring and video contact that could keep that elderly person in their own home for much, much longer before they needed to move to an aged care facility. That could save the government billions.
People just don't see it... Is It this more important then roads, Healthcare, Housing, and aged care which requires much more money and work then NBN with the aging population we are going to have the next 20 years?.
Actually a well developed NBN will reduce the cost of delivering those services, with cost reductions able to excede to cost of deployment.
Hospital at home projects that reduce the cost of providing health care, improve outcomes and are more family friedly. � the better projects are enabled by actual fast broadband on demand. (on demand, as opposed to a 6-12 week wait for connection)
-These programs reduce the costs by hundreds per DAY.
Work from home � even if only 1 in 20 of us could do this 1 day per week, this would produce a massive reduction in congestion. (as well as the business continuity planning benefits, cost reductons, flexibility etc)
Aged care � Stay at home programs, with fall sensors, GP telehealth, telemetry. None of which is viable over FTTN � too unreliable according to nbn. These programs (inc Vic pilot in FTTP area) do reduce the costs to the Govt.
So the question is really, Can we afford NOT to install a FTTP based NBN, with our ageing population?
So the question is really, Can we afford NOT to install a FTTP based NBN, with our ageing population?
How is any of that going to keep foxtel profitable?
An FTTP service with four NTD ports would allow the government to have a reliable, separate service at an elderly person's home to support heat/motion monitoring and video contact that could keep that elderly person in their own home for much, much longer before they needed to move to an aged care facility.
My aunt is going home today � she fell in a shopping centre and broke on or more bones, so had an operation and a few nights in hospital. Because she lives on her own and the district nurse is only able to come around once a day to check on her she had to spend another week in hospital, then another week or so in a respite centre at the taxpayer's expense. If she had FTTP she probably could have gone home soon after the operation, with remote monitoring and alerts if she had another fall... cost to the taxpayer for that would be maybe a couple of hundred dollars instead of potentially tens of thousands of dollars.
I know people on Whirlpool have a greater requirement for Internet services
That is a common misconception...the folks on Whirlpool also have a far greater insight into what the world will require in communication technology going forward. If we could deploy fibre in a year or less, there would be much less passion about it (grumbling yes, but much less passion). However, keep in mind that all over the world, local internet connectivity is changing at an astonishing pace, and most of the planet will have access to 1000/1000 speeds by 2020 (in 3.5 years).
We are going in exactly the opposite direction at a time when we desperately NEED a new source of revenue (which the NBN could provide).
It is a proven fact that each time you double the average internet speed of a country, you increase their GDP by .3% (in Australia, that equates to ~$5 Billion/year). But, if you double it again, you increase it again...
Going from our current average of 6Mbps to 100Mbps is just over 4 doublings (increase of $20 Billion/ year in GDP?)
How is any of that going to keep foxtel profitable?
They'll just have to move to a streaming model, similar to Netflix, Presto, and Stan.
Just posted in the Coalition thread:
guys i was in NBN forum with Gai brodtman mp and stephen jones mp , bill shorten will announce the nbn policy very soon
I expect some time in the next week.
How your crappy internet speed could decide election
http://www.news.com.
Just realised that was yesterday's... may have already been posted.
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas. I do know a little more then you might think.
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services as its yet to give the end user SLA's times. Maybe in a few more years this might change but now its a very hard sell. Just last week we have a customer In Toowoomba largish business that has a fibre break and they have not been given at ETA. The same company has a 20/20 MPLS services they were looking at cancelling but after this outage its total made them rethink. Yes having reliable internet is great but at what cost? Funny how you can get SLA on PSTN type services and other copper feed services not yet on NBN enabled Greenfields type sties. So before any says its critical for business look at the big picture most businesses have plans around it NOT working..... For the amount of money we are paying we could be getting better a lot better.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas
Which is nice, but there are a ton of folks in this forum that work directly with e-health...they all say your wrong.
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services
That I know from personal experience is quite incorrect...I design networks and systems for folks in SMB, and without exception they are clamouring for the NBN. You may mean Enterprise...
Just last week we have a customer In Toowoomba largish business that has a fibre break and they have not been given at ETA
Fibre breaks are almost always fixed much faster than copper breaks...it is far easier to find the break with fibre.
BTW, the SLA is with the RSP, not NBN Co...
Edit:I should say that I am speaking of the FTTP NBN...FTTN is not really very reliable at all and most are still quite sceptical (as they should be)
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
Yes, it will, without doubt.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas.
Then you know the value of reliable ubiquitous communication, so why are you against it?
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services as its yet to give the end user SLA's times.
That's entirely down to the current management � business services were on the roadmap before the election, but are obviously pointless on inherently unreliable FTTN.
Yes having reliable internet is great but at what cost?
Less than unreliable FTTN, and with a return on investment.
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
For god sake. Get off the healthcare/roads bullcrap comparisons mate.
NBN is a self-paying investment, the money gets paid back and then it turns into a cash cow. It's nothing like healthcare.
The fact you're comparing these services shows a complete lack of economic clue. Whether its 50 billion or 70 billion, it makes no damn difference longterm.
Solutions and spending for Healthcare will go on forever, there will be no end to costs like that. It's not a revenue stream. And the introduction of technologies such as NBN just reduces Healthcare costs if anything, along with less reliance on the daily highway commutes on those expensive roads into the city.
It's not a revenue stream.
Unless you a specialist of one of the Colleges. Then it's a bloody goldmine!
BTW, the SLA is with the RSP, not NBN Co...
The RSP cannot give a SLA that is not supported by the NBNCo.
This issue was reported years ago. For example ...
ISP iiNet has lampooned NBN Co for setting the bar too low on restoration times for network faults ...
http://www.itnews.com.a
The fact you're comparing these services shows a complete lack of economic clue. Whether its 50 billion or 70 billion, it makes no damn difference longterm.
Well that's a contradiction within its self.... How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way? This means there is less to go around and pay other bills and bring new schools services online. Money does not come from nowhere. I don't think its up to governments to pay for this type of infrastructure. There job is to change and make legislation to make it easier for public enterprise to fund it. E.g. work with councils and other utilities for shared space and timing of projects so the same bit of road is not dug up twice.
Look at what we have got... Governments prove time and time again they fail with big projects as the don't have the guts to make the hard choices.
Fibre breaks are almost always fixed much faster than copper breaks...it is far easier to find the break with fibre.
BTW, the SLA is with the RSP, not NBN Co...
Edit:I should say that I am speaking of the FTTP NBN...FTTN is not really very reliable at all and most are still quite sceptical (as they should be)
Totally wrong there is NO SLA as of yet. The RSP has no control. Customer has an NBN issue turning around time that we see with out customers 2-3 weeks. Telstra does a better job fixing PSTN services 2-4 days at most. I can only tell what I see everyday. I am sure NBN Co will get better as they will have to as people will start jumping up and down like they are with low speeds due to very poor pricing structure of CVC.
This means there is less to go around and pay other bills and bring new schools services online
No, it really doesn't. If the money that was being invested into NBN Co were used for anything on budget it would be purely deficit. You know, that big bad evil that Abbott introduced us to in 2013 ;)
The money invested into NBN Co isn't from the tax coffers but rather from Commonwealth bonds.
Money does not come from nowhere
Correct, in this case it comes from the sale of bonds, which is then paid back by NBN Co.
I don't think its up to governments to pay for this type of infrastructure.
Its this or nothing. Even in the magical free market world, they wanted regulatory holidays and direct funding from commonwealth funds. That is to say, not a loan, not an investment, but straight up "heres a bag of free money" to do anything about it.
Governments prove time and time again they fail with big projects as the don't have the guts to make the hard choices.
So I guess the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Snowy hydro, the sewage network, water network, Telstra's copper line and HFC networks, and the electricity grid are all failures? I left the opera house off this list because it is one project that ostensively could be called a failure. Some of those other projects were failures at the time, but you wouldn't consider them failures now. Hell the HFC and PTSN networks that NBN Co are now acquiring were built in government hands. Telstra was still a GBE at the time the rollout started, and the PTSN network was entirely government funded, but the more important ones in that list are the sewage, water, and power networks. These utilities were all big government projects.
I left the opera house off this list because it is one project that ostensively could be called a failure.
Well it probably hasn't made its money back in ticket sales, and its acoustics probably leave a little to be desired, but by being brave and bold with the architecture, the building has become an international icon and has no doubt generated millions of dollars in indirect tourism revenue.
This is precisely what the NBN detractors don't get (or get, but wilfully ignore) � the NBN (and by that, I mean a proper Fibre based NBN) will generate millions, if not billions of dollars of extra economic revenue for the government through increased productivity and strong global competitiveness. So much of the NBN FUD relies on simplistic models of revenue and short sighted notions of what sort of broadband requirements will be needed in the future � it makes me want to scream!!!
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas.
Such as ...? Which ones are you proud of...?
So much of the NBN FUD relies on simplistic models of revenue and short sighted notions of what sort of broadband requirements will be needed in the future � it makes me want to scream!!!
More correctly cost to build is the only criteria really where in reality the discussion should be what is the cost of NOT building NBN FTTP compared to FTTN.
As for Sydney Opera House could anyone put a price on the marketing value it has generated over the years as an architectural icon (world wonder) and all the money tourists have spent to come to Australia and experience it. What would have been the cost to Australian businesses to not have built it.
So I guess the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Snowy hydro, the sewage network, water network, Telstra's copper line and HFC networks, and the electricity grid are all failures?
Sydney Harbour Bridge
Cost: $4.2 million or 6.25 million Australian pounds ($A13.5 million)
I found two different figures so I've shown both.
Ongoing Costs: The annual maintenance costs are approximately $5 million. (Paid for by ongoing revenue.)
Outstanding Debt: Paid off in 1988
Revenue: The initial toll for a car was 6 pence and a horse and rider was 3 pence. Today the toll is around A$3.30 for cars for a southbound trip and it is free to go northbound. (I imagine that there is probably ongoing revenue from the company running the bridge climbs.)
Benefits:
- Completed in 1932, the construction of the bridge � known locally as "The coathanger" � was an economic feat as well as an engineering triumph.
- Prior to the bridge being built, the only links between the city centre in the south and the residential north were by ferry or by a 20 kilometre (12� mile) road route that involved five bridge crossings.
- In 1932, the average annual daily traffic was around 11,000 and now it is around 180,000 vehicles per day.
Ahhh the short-sightedness of the LNP with the MTM. I wonder how many times the Federal LNP have tried to sell off the Sydney Harbour Bridge without realising that it belongs to NSW. Mind you the Federal LNP would have undervalued it on eBay as the LNP have always thought the Sydney Harbour Bridge only has one lane each way.
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding. Some good point mentioned before and I will take them onboard. A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas. It's good to have a chat and not agree on everything :)and not take it personally. Once that happens you have lost the fight. I just think it could have been better planed and costed.
The Drum tonight unsolicited discussion about Internet for the bush by non ALP and LNP pollies
Steve78 you may be interested re rural health
go to 14.45
Also on iview
Australia Votes: Regional Leaders' Debate: Discussing the issues facing Regional Australia will be Nationals' Leader Barnaby Joyce, the ALP's Joel Fitzgibbon & Greens Leader Richard Di Natale. Hosted by Chris Uhlmann live from Goulburn, NSW.
NBN is discussed from the 31st min mark.
http://iview.abc.net.au/prog
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding. Some good point mentioned before and I will take them onboard. A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas.
People like to trivialise the NBN by saying it's just for streaming movies and TV � and to some extent they're right. It will most definitely be used for that. Netflix and co aren't going anywhere. But it will also be used for a myriad of other purposes � and we need to make sure that we have a network that can sustain the bandwidth for all of the above without hitting bottlenecks. Otherwise, what's the bloody point of spending $50B+ on it? If I can't do my work in a timely fashion because half my street is watching Netflix, then it's money wasted IMHO...
I just think it could have been better planed and costed.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, it can make anyone look wise. :)
I think even Mike Quigley and Conroy would agree that some things could have been done better. But if you look at what was achieved, it was a pretty impressive feat.
Just because the FTTP could have been improved is not a reason to completely change direction to a new policy (MTM). The LNP should have improved on the original plan not changed it completely.
Once politics get involved no one wins.... its all about scoring points
Once politics get involved no one wins.... its all about scoring points
And what I mean about large government projects not going right.
Should I mention desalination plants water grid, east link. In the last few years large expensive projects have not been costed nor gone well costing the tax payer plenty. Snowy river and other big projects was built with non Union slave labour very unsafe environments very surprised labor would even want them acknowledged. I think you might even 58% of snowy hydro was sold by nsw and vic governments also was introduced by the Libs and nats after ww2 using cheap European labour. Do you think this is going to happen with NBN?
People like to trivialise the NBN by saying it's just for streaming movies and TV � and to some extent they're right.
The NBN is not about streaming movies, but it does make sound business sense to use streaming movies to help pay for it.
A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas
Just to add...according to every modern global economic model, when you double the average broadband for a country, you add .3% to the GDP each time. That formula has proven (so far) to be like Moore's Law, it just keeps going...
In Australia, .3% of GDP is currently ~ $5 Billion/year.
If you double the broadband average here 4 times (say from the current 6Mbps to 96Mbps) you add (theoretically) ~$20 Billion/year to the GDP.
Edit: Imagine what getting the NBN on gigabit will do...
Also, since it's a GLOBAL economy, you have to look at what the rest of the world is doing. According to Deloitte, the vast majority of the homes in the world will have access to Gigabit by 2020...
Hell the HFC and PTSN networks that NBN Co are now acquiring were built in government hands.
And this is the big point the anti-NBN supporters and conservative trolls are forgetting when they start waffling on with their usual rubbish. Both networks were built and paid for while in our hands over a long period of time. The NBN should be no different and is why this network should be built properly the first time.
Your telling me its going to help with Healthcare?
Actually yes.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas. I do know a little more then you might think.
Good to hear. Were you involved in the trials of the home oncology project a while ago? Lots of ISDN links. Of course customers who required urgent treatment were not candadates, as you can imagine. Project findings � great for patients, great for budget. Lead time and reliability of network were a problem.
The Heath industry and SMB don't want to touch NBN type services as its yet to give the end user SLA's times. Maybe in a few more years this might change but now its a very hard sell.
Have a read of PulseIT. You may want to revise your position.
Having worked in both vendor and provider space for healthcare, I can tell you that healthcare vendors are interested (they are SMB with a distribuited field network), as it improves reliability and throughput. With increasing use of presence in local/home offices, and integration of phone (voip and mobile) with crm/erp it is even more important to ensure network availability to small office structures.
And a well timed document:
http://www.pulseitm
Healthcare providers try to be technology agnostic. FTTN has raised issues with some devices that use dialup (and acoustic!) methods to return data. These work find with the Uni-V port ATA, and even some of the RSP provisioned services. Even nbn admit that FTTN is not suitable.
The solution for this is to move to 3G/4G. Only adds $50-100 per month to the bill per device for the provider to pay.
the amount of money we are paying we could be getting better a lot better
When the current govt ministers all trott out the 'it is an expensive entertainment network' line, what do you expect. Even our so called 'Innovation' minister does not see a need for fast broadnband in Australia.
Just to add...according to every modern global economic model, when you double the average broadband for a country, you add .3% to the GDP each time. That formula has proven (so far) to be like Moore's Law, it just keeps going...
In Australia, .3% of GDP is currently ~ $5 Billion/year.
You may want to visit ABS to get the correct GDP figure. Your numbers are a bit low.
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding
Have a read of what IBM thought labor's nationwide FTTP would do for Australia's economy and how it would essentially restructure almost every industry. Ultimately they think it'd be worth 1 trillion dollars per year to our economy by 2050.
Once greedy neo-liberals politics get involved no one wins Australia loses.
Fixed that for you.
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way?
None, since by definition an investment is not a gift.
There job is to change and make legislation to make it easier for public enterprise to fund it.
What is this "public enterprise" you're speaking of? Do you mean a self-funding GBE like the NBN which merely requires seed investment from the government to get going?
Look at what we have got... Governments prove time and time again they fail with big projects as the don't have the guts to make the hard choices.
I'm still waiting for you to specify which privately funded national infrastructure project you're comparing the NBN (or the MTM) to.
Totally wrong there is NO SLA as of yet.
Blame Turnbull and Morrow who keep delaying its release, presumably because admitting that FTTP is reliable and FTTN is not wouldn't help their election chances.
120 billion dollar movie Sharing network..... Just kidding.
Just trolling you mean.
A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas.
It will / would have increased productivity throughout the economy.
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way?
Well that's definitely going to happen if the nbn goes back on budget. And that's quite possible if it can't raise private equity and increase returns . Switching to mtm has reduced the resale value by half and the revenues from 7% to 3.5%.
The only portion of the mtm making high returns is the Fibre.
A pure ftth was and is a great idea and yes will create a lot of jobs and might increase productivity in only some specialised areas
Only some specific areas? The Internet is having a profound impact in almost every industry on earth. It's also the premier delivery system for any services based economy. Without exaggeration, the Internet is the single biggest productivity driver since industrialisation.
Totally wrong there is NO SLA as of yet.
http://www.internode.on.net/business/internet/nbn/sla/
Not great, but it does exist...
I should add that it was part of the Labor NBN, but the Coalition appears to have changed that...
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
Internet is the single biggest productivity driver since industrialisation.
Just like the automobile once was for the elite and now just look its for the masses all kinds of shapes and sizes and configurations and prices.
Same with the internet it started off small and now its a global revolution.
Also just full of bandwidth clotting trolls, spam and adverts.
Once called the superhighway now its getting close to a digital traffic jam.
The NBN was meant to at least that some way alleviate.
The MTM just brings back the traffic jams.
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way?
Thanks to the LNP we will get to find out.
Tax breaks to your mates and a fleet of submarines are not.
In fact little more than sound bites...no substance other than announcements in tax breaks and no detail other than number of subs matches the lack of substance to Turnbull's promises for NBN....ready to go became nothing for 2 � years and when the moment arrives nothing but trouble and failures. Fully costed promise turned $29B cost into $56+B. Stopping spending has resulted into highest level of spending ever and the so called debt and deficit election slogan has been tripled....but that is not a problem.
Where is the real substance to nbn MTM??? slower, dearer and later.... OH! what could have been, we may well lament.
I design networks for the healthcare industry and network in remote areas. I do know a little more then you might think.
And I design remote access solutions for Queesland State Government, and I can tell you that a FTTH NBN would have been a godsend to me ... SLA's be damned. I'm not turning this into a urination contest here by the way, just letting you know that I understand your concerns better than most.
You won't get SLA's for consumer grade connections anyway, but that doesn't stop business from using consumer grade ADSL right now for some connections. It comes down to money (which if you want SLA's the business forks out more and pays for a business grade connection) versus percentage uptime (which saves money, but loses the SLA's). So why not use fibre instead of copper?
Consider that fibre as a medium on it's own is a lot less susceptible to distance and EMI than copper, the more fibre out there makes for an optimal experience for end users that I simply can't get anywhere else. If I was PM for a day (or however long it would take) I'd reinvest every drop of profit that the FTTH network would have made into pushing fibre out to as close to 100% as possible (it's nice to dream I guess *grin*).
I'm not talking about the MTM by the way, I'm talking about the previous FTTH, which was on track to make a better return than the MTM, and even better, if it went above the 7% threshold, NBNCo would have been forced to lower wholesale prices to the ISP's, who in turn would hopefully have passed some of that on to customers.
So before any says its critical for business look at the big picture most businesses have plans around it NOT working
Here's the thing though ... with regards to those plans ... it's up to us, the designers of these solutions to take that into account. The network traffic isn't the goal here, think bigger, the applications to the end users are. So if you're going to leverage the NBN, have a plan for critical services to go down.
Just because a service doesn't have an SLA doesn't mean that the service isn't fit for purpose. It's our job as architects to provide solutions. It might mean the apps aren't fit for purpose. In which case, you change architectures if you got that luxury, or you change apps. We can't guarantee 100% uptime on anything, but if you want 5 x 9's reliability out in the regions, you aren't going to get it realistically. Does that mean no solutions can be designed for that scenario? Of course not.
This is the crux of the discussion where new applications could be deployed over the NBN. These are the opportunities that lower the barrier to entry (thanks to fibre's advantages as a medium) for applications and architectures to be created to introduce new services such as the ones you gave examples of to (until the 2013 election) 93% of Australian premises. The hybrid MTM keeps that bar high ... no amount of turd polishing can make it even approach the longevity/scalability of fibre from the start.
That is worth taking a few years longer for ... because in a little while, we'll all be dead ... but the same medium (fibre) will still be serving those after us. If it's copper, we'll see this puppet show again in our lifetime, and some of us didn't want to see it even once.
An FTTP service ........ could keep that elderly person in their own home for much, much longer before they needed to move to an aged care facility. That could save the government billions.
All part of the $20+B pa contribution to GDP that only FTTP could deliver...all forgone by Turnbull's failed promise of MTM
How many years do you think our government will be giving NBN co billions to prop it up until its starts paying its way
If you are talking Turnbull's nbn then, forever, IF it continues to support it. The market will not fund FTTN MTM as it is too high a risk and correctly viewed as a sunk asset in a commercially short time frame for such an asset. FTTN MTM can't achieve sufficient ROI so most likely the only way to continue it is for govt taxpayer funds to continue ...forever?
If you are talking NBN FTTP then with the apparent ROI from what FTTP has been built the NBNV1 projections would have been achieved if not beaten ie. govt support finished earlier and the market borrowing start sooner or less required.
one thing that Labor need to start screaming from teh rooftops is that the NBN under them was not on the budget books.
The Government went guarantor on loans to NBN which were raised from the private sector.
These funds were raised by bonds in which the Government cannot invest, so all the money came from the private sector.
Just because a service doesn't have an SLA doesn't mean that the service isn't fit for purpose
+1 for your entire post...truly well written Murdoch!
I think even Mike Quigley and Conroy would agree that some things could have been done better. But if you look at what was achieved, it was a pretty impressive feat.
Proof is in the pudding � the only parts of NBN that actually work and earn good revenue � as planned and forecast � are what NBN V1 put in place, and Turnbull ironically claims the praises for achieving that without having contributed to that part of the build yet has done everything he can to slow its success down and destroy it.
ou may want to visit ABS to get the correct GDP figure. Your numbers are a bit low.
Viditors figures are about right for 2013 so you are quite correct in today's figues it would be significatnly higher...~$25Bpa (?)
Switching to mtm has reduced the resale value by half and the revenues from 7% to 3.5%.
I am reasonably sure NBN Co have mentioned down to 2.5%
Without exaggeration, the Internet is the single biggest productivity driver since industrialisation.
Damned right!! So why is Turnbull destroying the best opportunity this country has had with FTTP to maximise innovation, productivity and jobs....?
Just because a service doesn't have an SLA doesn't mean that the service isn't fit for purpose.
Unlike the Copper and HFC networks.
Snowy river and other big projects was built with non Union slave labour
"slave labour" � I didn't realise that slave labour was used for the Snowy river project. Please do tell more.
The NBN is not about streaming movies, but it does make sound business sense to use streaming movies to help pay for it.
I've expressed my dislike of using analogies for describing the NBN but does the Government only build roads for persons travelling to work, for business and industry to use or do they build roads for individuals going to the movies, other such 'entertainment' and personal use and persons travelling to work, for business and industry?
Another suggestion for the Labor NBN Policy.
Announce that if elected that all those Turnbull commissioned post 2013 Federal Election Strategic Review's and CBA are to be updated within 6 weeks of the Federal Election
1. By the original writers.
2. By at least 2 independent Consulting firms
3. One other independent consulting form nominated by the Federal Liberal Party
The results of all of them to be publicly published and compared 6 weeks after the Federal Election. Along with a summary of the changes from the original reviews.
Then a further 3 consulting firms will peer critique all of the above within 4 weeks and these critiques will again all be publicly published immediately to assist the new Government with refining and further developing it's NBN 3.0 plans.
Popcorn to the SuperMax time folks.
Another suggestion for the Labor NBN Policy.
How about the ALP and the LNP work together to reach a bi-partisan position for the future rollout of the NBN to take the politics out of it. Base the NBN rollout going forward on the advice of expert telecommunication engineers.
Yeah .... I know .... I'm dreaming.
it will never happen cause the liberal party wanna protect foxtel by rolling out outdated technology , so when u get slow internet worse than adsl then you will be forced to use foxtel TV !
liberal party wanna keep the copper network for another three decades
As much as I wish there could be a bipartisan consensus, I very much doubt that it could be possible, and would probably be undesirable, to my way of thinking.
The reason is that, for the LNP to agree, the project would have to be watered down to such an extent that it would very much resemble the MTM. And I don't want Labor to lose their ticker and cave into the MTM for expediency's sake.
I just don't believe that anything will convince the LNP elite to lift their game to aim for something that is actually good.
So why is Turnbull destroying the best opportunity this country has had with FTTP to maximise innovation, productivity and jobs....?
Because with a TA led LNP he had to come up with an idea that was not FTTP.
With a MT led LNP he has to keep selling the same tripe so it is not obvious he spent 20Bn of taxpayers money for a personal power trip.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
The reason is that, for the LNP to agree, the project would have to be watered down to such an extent that it would very much resemble the MTM.
You're right there will not be bipartisan agreement and the LNP position you suggest would not be acceptable which is why I said:
Base the NBN rollout going forward on the advice of expert telecommunication engineers.
But doesn't change my original view that:
Yeah .... I know .... I'm dreaming
Sorry Javelyn, I missed your point when I wrote my piece.
Has anyone noticed that Labor do not appear to have a current NBN policy?
Has anyone noticed that Labor do not appear to have a current NBN policy?
No, it hasn't been announced.
Bill Shorten says its an election issue for him, so we will wait for the announcement.
Anything else is noise.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I missed your point when I wrote my piece
No apologies required ... I feel like we're all old friends from way back here.
How about the ALP and the LNP work together to reach a bi-partisan position for the future rollout of the NBN to take the politics out of it.
I've said before it needs a non-partisan approach. The LNP have shown themselves to be driven by ideology and paid consultants (shills).
Base the NBN rollout going forward on the advice of expert telecommunication engineers.
Yeah, for the reasons above I think this would be the approach, constitute an expert and respected committee that met regularly and took public submissions and/or hearings.
The panel could run for the life of NBNco, even after construction had completed. This would then be able to ensure the GBE was responsive to market requirements, Which is a criticism of public organisations.
The panel should have reps for productivity commission, industry experts, community reps, education, medicine etc.
If a good mix of people could be found for such a steering committee it would devalue the political BS that comes from the politicians.
I've said before it needs a non-partisan approach
constitute an expert and respected committee that met regularly and took public submissions and/or hearings
The panel could run for the life of NBNco, even after construction had completed
If a good mix of people could be found
Sorry but I don't understand why such complexity needs to be added to the farce the NBN has become.
The reality is the original NBN has demonstrated in the field it works, works very well delivering what it was planned to do and the alternative is proving to be a dog (my apologies to dogs). Telstra have had more internet problems since FTTN MTM started to be built than for a decade or more....just get on with NBN V1 and do it right...the rest of the world is and so should Australia...the cost of not doing NBN V1 far outweighs the up front build cost ......no need to complicate a successful Plan
This is potentially what the alp could do � I'm not sure what they will announce though.
1 � finish current areas being built with fttn � even offering a cheap upgrade to fttp.
2 � upgrade hfc to docsis 3.1
3 � stop fttn where they can and change to either fttd or fttp (500 upgrade fee from fttdp to fttp?)
I'm not sure what they Willem announce, but I'm thinking fttdp could be their policy if they don't go fttp.
What if this entire thread was copied and emailed to both Major parties so they could see what real people, some of whom who actually know what they are talking about think and want from the NBN then we might get somewhere.
anyway I will grab my coat and turn the lights off on the way out...
know what they are talking about think and want from the NBN then we might get somewhere.
LOL � why would we need someone who isn't a total luddite building this once in a life time network?
Why bother taking politics out of it and doing what is best by the country?
I am pissed at the LNP � They have wrecked it � not only wrecked it but it may mean this project has to be bought on budget because it won't make a return.
I'm also angry that they protected an old man's business (foxtel) instead of doing what's best for the country.
The ALP can announce whatever they want and it will be a better policy � hell, not doing anything will be a better policy.
2 � upgrade hfc to docsis 3.1
DOCSIS 3.1 looks like itwil not be the panacea that Cable Labs and the HFC providers had hoped. There seem to be a great deal of difficulty in trying to implement it in the field when compared to the lab, there have been linked articles in teh HFC thread I think.
Also it seems there are no 3.1 modems being commercially produced yet.
Cable providers in the USA (maybe not all) seem to be changing over to Fibre and ditching their existing HFC networks.
Maybe spend te bare minimum on the HFC areas where ecconomic and then come back and do FTTP, but otherwise don't waste money on it
Maybe spend te bare minimum on the HFC areas where ecconomic and then come back and do FTTP, but otherwise don't waste money on it
Get them to a stable 30/100mbs and then upgrade adsl to fttp, fttn to fttp and then hfc to fttp.
The ALP can announce whatever they want and it will be a better policy
I'll reserve judgement until I actually see what the policy is.
Maybe spend te bare minimum on the HFC areas where ecconomic and then come back and do FTTP, but otherwise don't waste money on it
I think that makes sense. Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
They could do something similar with FTTB/dp for MDUs. Just have the option to stick a VDSL device where the copper enters the building and move on. Come back later and do FTTP.
The most important thing imo is to stop FTTN.
Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
Agree.. and I hope that's the alp policy objective..
PS , Tailgator, miss your input mate..
What if this entire thread was copied and emailed to both Major parties
It would be more than a safe bet they have been for a very long time ....noticed a couple of posters heavily and nonsensically flooding it with purely partisan posts....perception management? Whirpool is a very critical source for political parties on many topics, NBN being high on the list.
I think that makes sense. Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
DOCSIS 3.1 looks like itwil not be the panacea that Cable Labs and the HFC providers had hoped. There seem to be a great deal of difficulty in trying to implement it in the field when compared to the lab, there have been linked articles in teh HFC thread I think.
I think the main problem is the cost. As far as I have read, apart from the node splits required, almost all the active equipment has to be replaced. It's not so much an upgrade as an entire overhaul of the network. When you combine that with infill into the areas that Telstra and Optus missed in the rollout, the chance of HFC with DOCSIS 3.1 being more cost effective over the medium term than FTTP is very low.
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
Wasted money I agree, after all they are supposed to nominally have 100Mb/s aren't they � bit like FTTN promises promises...
IMO there is oly one way to go full FTTP pretty much in the order mention a few posts ago but leave HFC to end ... just work around the FTTN MTM mess.... the KISS principle.
It would be more than a safe bet they have been for a very long time ....noticed a couple of posters heavily and nonsensically flooding it with purely partisan posts....perception management? Whirpool is a very critical source for political parties on many topics, NBN being high on the list.
Yes, both parties know about this thread, and one side has been extremely active in trying to shift groundswell with a number of shill accounts. Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
both parties know about this thread
Remember those days pre-Liberal when NBN were on these forums answering questions.. ahh the good old days. Now whirlpool.net.au would be blocked from their server
Sorry but I don't understand why such complexity needs to be added to the farce the NBN has become.
Huh? The complexity has come from he purely partisan way that the current goverment has handled the since winning goverment.
What I was suggesting is one way that decoupled the influence partisan politics had over the project. Essentially two politicians direct NBNco by way if the SoE with nothing standing between common sense and the common good and their self interest.
What I suggested wasn't particularly complex, it is certainly easy to understand. Get a representative expert panel to steer NBNco. Mist likely through the SoE process.
Unless you think NBNco can turn the MTM ship around and complete the NBN in the next term of goverment you will need a better plan than "just build it".
That was the original plan and look what happened on the change of goverment.
Unless you think NBNco can turn the MTM ship around and complete the NBN in the next term of goverment you will need a better plan than "just build it".
Apologies cw, I wasn't being critical, just suggesting to just get on with it. The time it would take to get a steering committee set up and then put a plan together, and all the flak that would draw politically (the Oz would have a birthday...) is what I call complexity.
As for bi-partisanship, I only see Turnbull as having any capability of that on the LNP side and he totally squibbed any opportunity for anyone to believe he could. Waste of time IMO sadly.
NBN V1 was totally designed in overall build and a number of areas were detail designed so unless that has been destroyed under LNP reign there is a quick start possibility. That would buy the time to sort the longer term nitty gritties out � no delay dare I say sooner , faster and I have no doubt cheaper than nbn MTM on every measure....
Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
I've noticed this as well � maybe the funding ran out?
NBN V1 was not perfect, however it was a lot better than V2.
V3 should learn from the mistakes of the past and be aiming to finish it in 10 years � FTTP for 93% then look at the other 7%/invest in more sattelites/other technologies to give better internet to rural communities.
We should be aiming for 50mbs minimum in 3 years and 1gbs by 2030 � these speeds are available overseas at the moment.
Other countries are laughing at us.
Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
They are probably reloading.
We should be aiming for 50mbs minimum in 3 years and 1gbs by 2030 � these speeds are available overseas at the moment.
Other countries are laughing at us.
In fact any build for FTTP can now do 100/40 and be easily upgraded to 1GB with little work at each end I believe � no infrastructure requirements at all. No need for 50Mb/s min.
If HFC if treated by an NBN FTTP V3 as Turnbull claimed it with his 2016 promise ie. do nothing to it because it already is supposed to do better than 25Mb/s but claim it as part of his build, only ~ 2/3rds of the 12M services identified in NBN V1 need to be 'built'. About 2M FTTP have been done to date and that was at a 40% rate compared to NBN V1 planned built rate, leaving 6M to be done. A large portion of that would be done before another election.
I could not see another reversal of FTTP if restarted under any circumstance. FTTN is failing badly and FTTP has had nowhere near the same problems and is performing well.
They are probably reloading.
Busy reviewing the Labor NBN Policy image docs phoned out of Conroy's office maybe?
HFC with DOCSIS 3.1
The other big problem with 3.1 is the speed, or those on FTTN asking why those on HFC would get far faster speeds than those stuck with copper. The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable, something the current lot in power would not want to deal with.
The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable, something the current lot in power would not want to deal with.
Except to increase that divide. These are people who only measure success by wealth and power. They want more of those and can only get them [because their feeble imaginations can't perceive any other way] by taking it away from others. The idea of actually increasing the size of the pie so that everyone benefits is beyond them.
Remember those days pre-Liberal when NBN were on these forums answering questions.. ahh the good old days. Now whirlpool.net.au would be blocked from their server
I wish i remebered them days! Although i was on WP long before then, i wasn't deep in NBN untill about 5 years ago when i started learning that a possible change in government would mean an end to an already VERY LONG AND PAINFUL wait just to get on the "3-years-for-heaven-build-commence" list only to have it be swept out the window in 2013! i really wish NBNv1 was still going full steam ahead. I could only imagine how awesome it would have been to be on FTTP 6 months ago (and thats worst case!) and ot have ridden the wave the whole way and even being able to read communications with NBN staff on WP!
This is the kind of thing that should be happening with such a massive country wide undertaking.
I think ALP should just halt all new FTTN instantly. Finish any new builds of FTTN that aren't passed the point of no return (even if some are well into starting... save the money down the road of BUILD PRICE + FISH UP PRICE and just chuck away the half spent on BUILD START and scrap it and go back to FTTP NG-PON2 for all.
Forget HFC. Even though i've seen some good examples of decent ways to use it.. all the negatives just seem like a wast of time and money. In the end.. stop fkg around and get on with what we all know should never have been stopped. And just fix the issues that were wrong with that implementation (CVC / POI / Stopping the network from being changed again... etc).
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Once they take ownership of any part of the HFC network they commit to taking ownership if it all but that happens over time as the roll out progresses.
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
It's revenue for the NBNCo. If an interim HFC upgrade can pay for itself before it's replaced then that's a net benefit to the NBNCo. If it can't then don't do it. It's worth a look imo.
The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable
Makes it very attractive for Foxtel owners doesn't it and Telstra who wants to sell it share or part of....NBN CO added value at taxpayer expense...bloody wonderful!!
It's revenue for the NBNCo. If an interim HFC upgrade can pay for itself before it's replaced then that's a net benefit to the NBNCo. If it can't then don't do it. It's worth a look imo.
So NBN Co didn't have much regard for FTTN then if they gave HFC priority...
Maybe the ALP's policy could be to allow NBN Co (but probably without the portion of the current nbn� management that is one eyed) to decide whether to rollout FttP or Fttdp where NBN Co determines which is the beat approach against a set criteria. Existing FttN rollouts will be continued where its not feasible or economical to change to a FttP or Fttdp rollout. Otherwise FttN can go the way of the dodo (dodo also to = MT).
I have no flapping idea what they do with HFC, particularly given nbn� may have locked in costly arrangements with Telstra.
Maybe the ALP's policy could be to allow NBN Co (but probably without the portion of the current nbn� management that is one eyed) to decide whether to rollout FttP or Fttdp where NBN Co determines which is the beat approach against a set criteria.
I think the first step could be to show the Coalition has turned the NBNCo into such a financial basket case the only way to complete the roll out is for the government to fund it all with equity. There are already reports of the Coalition looking at ways to get out of the mess. Labor just needs to build on that. Using equity is cheaper all round.
Having done that, I think Labor can make a financial case for a return to FTTP. I take Phg's point in the Coalition thread, though, that FTTdp might be politically more acceptable. If FTTdp is far enough advanced as a technology to be used in a full scale roll out then it might be the best way forward.
I have no flapping idea what they do with HFC, particularly given nbn� may have locked in costly arrangements with Telstra.
I think that will depend on whether the NBNCo has triggered the 'take it all' clause in the Telstra agreement.
If they have a choice I think Labor should look to see if HFC is a cost-effective interim solution to generate some revenue whilst allowing the NBNCo to focus on FTTP (or FTTdp) elsewhere.
I also think they should use FTTB/dp as a first resort for MDUs to speed up the roll out. It's been too long already. They can't afford to slow down. They really need to speed up.
all just my opinion
oops
Umm ... this is the Labor thread :)
I think that will depend on whether the NBNCo has triggered the 'take it all' clause in the Telstra agreement.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC). I think it was asked and answered in the last senate select committee hearing, but I wasn't able to listen to that and haven't caught up on it yet.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC).
OK Thanks. I think Labor should have a quick look at it and then decide what to do. There should be a lot of information there already.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC). I think it was asked and answered in the last senate select committee hearing, but I wasn't able to listen to that and haven't caught up on it yet.
last Senate Estimates hearing page 132 of the Hansard
Senator CONROY: As we have discussed before, the revised definitive agreements with Telstra have anticherry-picking provisions in them in regard to the Telstra HFC. Specifically, a trigger point is reached when the first HFC line is transferred to nbn co, after which nbn co takes on an obligation to acquire and maintain Telstra's
entire HFC network or face the compensation regime. That is correct?
Mr Morrow: Yes.
Senator CONROY: Your corporate plan states that 10,000 HFC premises will be ready, and I know you
made a statement earlier about the service on the HFC by 30 June 2016. Will any of those HFC premises switched
on by nbn co by 30 June 2016 be on the Telstra network?
Mr Morrow: No.
Senator CONROY: So the trigger point will not be reached?
Mr Morrow: That is correct.
I fear what may happen on July 1 though
1 day before the election
On a a Friday a day where nbn� like to make lots of announcements
If they have a choice I think Labor should look to see if HFC is a cost-effective interim solution to generate some revenue whilst allowing the NBNCo to focus on FTTP (or FTTdp) elsewhere.
But what do you do with all the people without HFC in a HFC area?
But what do you do with all the people without HFC in a HFC area?
That's one of the options to consider:
- move everyone onto HFC over 18 months using the 'demand drop' method to do the lead-ins
- leave ADSL in those areas: let those who want to move to HFC move and let the others stay where they are
It's all part of the decision whether to take over the HFC networks or not. If it's not cost-effective to take them on then the NBNCo just goes back to paying for them to be decommissioned.
I fear what may happen on July 1 though
1 day before the election
On a a Friday a day where nbn� like to make lots of announcements
Would not be a surprise I agree.... I think in fact there was a comment on a thread that NBN Co would make an announcement on June 30/July 1 (?). When Labor announces its NBN Policy it should IMO specify that it will not honour any commitments made by LNP during caretaker period and should not be considered binding.
When Labor announces its NBN Policy it should IMO specify that it will not honour any commitments made by LNP during caretaker period and should not be considered binding.
think you mean nbn� , but they are allegedly bound by the caretaker provisions
think you mean nbn�
nah! that is a misnoma and misrepresents what it actually is.... I mean a real National Broadband Network Policy
Makes it very attractive for Foxtel owners doesn't it and Telstra who wants to sell it share or part of....NBN CO added value at taxpayer expense...bloody wonderful!!
i think its a case of taking over the ownership of the nbn itself � retaining its wholesale monopoly yet again (like this has worked well in the last 15 or so years hasnt it) � and having the public purse fund most of a network they will own and control. As it is, they * control the sale of the copper * that we are locked into if we use it. ie. they can simply make it impossible to sell off to anyone but them.
If this isnt corruption at federal govt level I dont know what is.
I hope labor have a good plan to trying and dig the nation out of this hole. I do expect that FttDP (with user pays pti to premises if they want fibre all the way) and FTTB (with similar user pays arrangements) will be the core of the ALP policy to be announced in the next couple of weeks. I am guessing they are saving it up for a hail mary pass at the end of the campaign.
I do expect that FttDP
The problem is this doesn't get us out of the Teltra veto powers mess, as it's still using Telstra's copper assets for that last 20 or so meters. FTTB is the only one that does in true FTTB situations as the MDF and building wiring belong to the body Corp and not Telstra
The problem is this doesn't get us out of the Teltra veto powers mess, as it's still using Telstra's copper assets for that last 20 or so meters.
I agree sir. But theres no silver bullet solution � there has to be a compromise. The positive in this is that at least it means labor wont be selling off the NBN anytime soon when the only buyer is Telstra...
I would expect under FTTDp there will be a fixed price fibre on demand option, and this will be the best we will get.
My personal opinion is the days of 'free fibre' are over � and with the changes to the definitive agreement, the revenue model that supported that (bringing in the HFC high profit centres) is gone. I guess we will know soon enough what their plans are. Has to be better than the libs current efforts at sabotaging a nation to support a corporation (and Murdochs tax break haven of foxtel).
with the changes to the definitive agreement
Changes to the definitive agreement don't really change this. Originally I thought they might, but they only really bring an issue about with areas that have a node. The remediation responsibility is capped, but not removed for areas that go straight to fibre. In some cases where the remediation responsibility hits its cap, it may even work out quicker than previously experienced because NBN Co would directly take over responsibility for fixing it.
the revenue model that supported that (bringing in the HFC high profit centres) is gone
I suggest you check the leaked documents. FTTH has a higher revenue model than all the other technologies in all the other areas. Also providing NBN Co don't do something monumentally stupid in caretaker mode, If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
I would expect under FTTDp there will be a fixed price fibre on demand option, and this will be the best we will get.
The problem I have with this is all the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises, do you seriously think the next push to fibre, either paid directly by subscribers, or a new mass rollout to get that last 30-40m is going to cost less than $300 per premises, and do you seriously think that no government is going to privatise before this occurs meaning Telstra gets their veto in there, and plays havoc with the market value?
Also providing NBN Co don't do something monumentally stupid in caretaker mode
Past experience is not promising
The problem I have with this is all the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises
The problem I have with this is those numbers come from the NBNCo. I haven't believed their other numbers and I'm not about to believe this one.
Telsoc reckoned the cost per pit for FTTdp was roughly the same as the cost per premises for FTTP. On that basis, if there are four premises using he pit the saving is ~$1,000 per premises. I'll go with Telsoc's numbers rather than the NBNCo's.
Telsoc quote/link ... whrl.pl/ReDd7K
The problem I have with this is those numbers come from the NBNCo.
Based on one fttdp trial connection.. hardly a representative sample.
I think the first step could be to show the Coalition has turned the NBNCo into such a financial basket case the only way to complete the roll out is for the government to fund it all with equity. There are already reports of the Coalition looking at ways to get out of the mess. Labor just needs to build on that. Using equity is cheaper all round.
There are two separate political issues with NBN:
1) � How it's financed
2) � The tech used
The genuine ideological difference is (1) (with the left position being very popular), but Turnbull successfully reframed the issue as (2).
But the reality is MTM means ongoing government funding is now a necessity.
I don't think this will be Labor policy, but it I still think the left have the opportunity to fork Turnbull on this. FTTP is profitable and could be viably privatised, but MTM is not. Personally, I'd love the irony of the privately funded quality from Labor vs publicly funded crap from the Libs.
Re HFC:
1) � We are yet to see how much it's really going to cost to implement. We're still early in it's development and the scope for more cost blowouts are still alive and kicking. But I think perhaps a bigger problem is infill. It's all very well to quote average CPPs, but once they start putting in nodes for areas with high infill requirements, effectively these premises are passed by � and nbn� have to pay for � both techs for the same premises. This is the anti-cherry picking provisions Telstra negotiated with their take-one, take-all HFC provisions.
2) � I don't think an incoming Labor government would have any huge problem unwinding any of this implemented during the caretaker period. Telstra could take it to the courts, but they'd lose (Telstra are fully aware of the caretaker provisions, they couldn't claim good faith). But even if Telstra won, Labor would win politically on this, and would be able to get enabling legislation through the Senate.
I suggest you check the leaked documents. FTTH has a higher revenue model than all the other technologies in all the other areas.
sorry, I was bringing up the point of HFC areas in the context they are big income stream areas (otherwise PM Murdoch wouldnt have rolled out HFC there in the first place).
The reason why I suggested the compromise approach is that traditionally the pit to the premises has been the most expensive component of the build. Ignoring the estimated build costs for premises that have been quoted for a minute (experience has shown that since telstra dont know the state of their ducts, no one can estimate how much capital work is involved � hence NBN have been quoting ranges for their technology upgrade program) it would appear FTTdP would be focusing labour on the street at pit level only, and eliminates the pit to the premises component expense for NBN � and that can be passed to the home owner, if they want a pure fibre run.
I would hope the current govt fell for the Telstra claims (otherwise its pure corruption) that all they had to do was drop a (powered) box at each DA, and then the DA had NBN. Well we we all know how that worked out.
Little Steve, I hope some of the stuff you have said is true. Lets hope its a cracker of a policy that will make people vote intelligently. The failure of the NBN in this country thanks to politicians (on both sides) has put this country at a significant disadvantage on so many levels at a time we simply do not need it (Im talking as the worlds largest coal exporter, failure to recognise climate change, etc.).
With the FTTN MTM, the operating costs are higher for NBNCo because they now have to upgrade, maintain and support multiple technologies and not just the single GPON.
The issue with HFC is that just because you have HFC running past premises, does not mean that everyone can be connected to HFC. The HFC network was only designed for something like a 20% take up. So, if you have both Telstra and Optus HFC running past premises, only around 40% of the premises will be able to connect to it before their capacity will be reached.
The result is you end up with having FTTN, and HFC in exactly the same area. Hardly a saving!
I'll go with Telsoc's numbers rather than the NBNCo's.
But much of the Telsoc analysis is based on the Strategic review numbers. You can't have it both ways.
the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises,
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP. Where a new LiC or aerial lead-in is required (~40%) this additional cost must be added.
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP.
do the costs also factor in the price of the GPON to VDSL converter, the premises modem and the premises power injector?
Or are these all on the user pays method?
It also gets murky for FTTdp as most devices seem to have one GPON input and various counts of copper output.
One to one would be easy to swap over to a Fibre lead in, multiple copper port models would require either a network rejig to permit a fibre lead in with more fibre pulled in after build, lots of spare fibre at build or the install of splitters and multiports with spare unused ports
and having the public purse fund most of a network they will own and control.
That's the game...wonder if a few pollies are investing in Telstra.....
If this isnt corruption at federal govt level I dont know what is.
It also gets murky for FTTdp as most devices seem to have one GPON input and various counts of copper output.
I think FTTdp only makes sense if the network architecture supports FTTP migration for all users both on an ad-hoc (on demand) basis and bulk upgrade (switching all remaining FTTdp users). This migration needs to have minimal disruption to services that have not specifically requested the migration.
I've said this before, but will repeat it again... I also think FTTdp is only a viable possibility if the fibre network architecture that feeds it maintains the flexibility of the original design.
If a FTTdp doesn't retain the ability to deliver direct fibre and path diverse products then it will have the same reduced revenue issue that FTTN has, it will just take a bit longer to reach the crunch point.
[edit] Added the point about disruption
But much of the Telsoc analysis is based on the Strategic review numbers. You can't have it both ways.
I can see many references to the SR for FTTN and FTTP costs. Can you point me at the bit in the Telsoc report that gets FTTdp costs from the SR. afaict I am not having it both ways.
The only FTTdp cost I can find in the SR is redacted and refers to a 48 port device 200m from the premises. That is not the FTTdp we are talking about. Is there something else?
edit:
iirc quigley's numbers for the premises connection were $1100-1500. So one pit for four premises is $1600 for FTTdp (Telsoc) versus $4400-6000 for FTTP. That's a saving of $700-1100 per premises.
I guess we will know soon enough what their plans are.
Pre voting is in about two weeks I think, so all policies including NBN will be released before then with time to 'argue' the points. Some 4.5M early votes are expected according to Insiders programme this morning so the last couple of weeks will be interesting for theatrics rather than policy � no new announcements one would expect.
Telstra could take it to the courts, but they'd lose (
They would be more than happy to make a fat financial settlement while parading their well funded and extensive legal team....
I also think FTTdp is only a viable possibility if the fibre network architecture that feeds it maintains the flexibility of the original design.
I think that's the scenario described by Mark Gregory in his articles and WP posts about FTTdp. I'm not a techie but aiui the only difference is instead of a passive optical multiport feeding the premises from the street there is a reverse-powered VDSL device.
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP.
Apples for apples, just as with FTTN costing less because only to the node is included in cost with the rest cost shifted if it is to happen any time into the future.
You can't ignore the up front cost to consumers for the leadin component which must be more than $300 so what's the point of doing FTTdp other than satisfying a political standpoint. Seems like simple logic to me.
do the costs also factor in the price of the GPON to VDSL converter, the premises modem and the premises power injector?
Or are these all on the user pays method?
Difficult to know. The FttDp leaked document appears to include CPE in the $729 premises activation costing but this isn't explicitly stated (I think that figure would be too high if CPE were not included) .
Can you point me at the bit in the Telsoc report that gets FTTdp costs from the SR.
It doesn't. It gives a cost from a G.Fast equipment manufacturer of <$300 compared to a FttP cost estimate of >$1500. What is not clear is what these cost estimates include.
The only FTTdp cost I can find in the SR is redacted and refers to a 48 port device 200m from the premises. That is not the FTTdp we are talking about.
Yet that is what the Sckipio costing above seems to be referring to.
From your Telsoc link http://telsoc.org/ajtde/2014-
This bit ...
We need to ask what corresponding costs should be assumed for the parts of the access network not included in Sckipio's final 200m calculations, but it is likely that the cost of FTTdp even in their estimation is not far above that of the $350 to $700 international FTTN range given at page 78 of the NBN Co Strategic Review report.
seems at odds with this bit..
However, the cost of the FTTdp customer connection in the Australian NBN setting involves only a portion of the work performed for the $300 cost suggested by Sckipio above (being supply and installation in the pit of the micro-node device).
iirc quigley's numbers for the premises connection were $1100-1500.
According to Quigley's rebuttal, the average cost of customer connect (on a fully loaded basis) was $1375 when he left. This was increased to $1552 in the FY2015 annual results. Who knows where it is at now.
So one pit for four premises is $1600 for FTTdp (Telsoc)
Does this include CPE? I doubt it at $400 per premises (which is a little over half of the $729 cost from the leaked doc). Is capitalised internal labour included? Please note the first quote from the telsoc document above suggests � but it is likely that the cost of FTTdp even in their estimation is not far above that of the $350 to $700 international FTTN range given at page 78 of the NBN Co Strategic Review report.
That's a saving of $700-1100 per premises.
You can't say what the saving is until you can compare like for like costings.
The leaked FttDp document gives a range of $250 � $2000 depending the state of LiC and how it is replaced if required. The low side is for premises where the LiC is fit for purpose (roughly 60% of brownfields in the FttP footprint so far).
Does this include CPE?
Nope. It's A generous allowance of $800 in equipment costs and $800 for multiple installer visits to the street pit, translates to $1600 in total, for an average of $400 per premises. That has to be compared to the cost of the FTTP multiport and four premise connections an average $1,375 (Quigley). That's a saving of $3,900 for four premises.
I think the cost of the CPE has to be added because it's not reasonable to expect the end customer to provide a modem/router that can support reverse power to the pit. I think the NBNCo would want control over that. The CPE would have to cost ~$600 to get the savings down to the NBNCo's $200-300 though.
You can't say what the saving is until you can compare like for like costings.
I think I am doing like for like costings.
guys billshorten as debate today at 7.30 , do u think he will announce something about the nbn today ?
do u think he will announce something about the nbn today ?
Knowing Politicians, I don't really expect him or anyone else to announce anything about the National Broadband network for a while, sadly despite what the NBN looks like now and the mess it is, it's still not at the top of anyone's lists, but if we see or hear any more NBN from either side of the team then i'll be watching closely.
This was a big infrastructure Project for Australia and it scratches my head as to how something so big get's little so attention (leave out the part where technical people wouldn't understand the NBN) If the NBN was some sort of Highway construction I can bet my Fibre two shoes that Both sides of politics would be taking about it constantly, but a Fibre network for the future? Eh at the bottom of every list at the moment such as it is :(
but he said they will announce the policy next two weeks ! he said that
Politicians make lots of promises and say this and that to the Camera's but what you don't know is whether they are being truthful or not.
Remember how we were all promised 25 Megabits to all premises (or most premises I don't know which way it was) by 2016? Well it's half way through 2016 now and where's the so called "promised" 25 Megabits? Up in thin air of course. I hate to say it but Politicians can't be trusted, it's a very dirty game to see how many sheep they can get to follow them.
If Bill says anything about the NBN then we should count ourselves lucky as for the past 2-3 years NBN hasn't really been at the top of the priority or list of things to speak and talk about.
The CPE would have to cost ~$600 to get the savings down to the NBNCo's $200-300 though.
You do understand that the nbnTM $250 cost differential is against a FttP "Best Case Install", and not the average cost? That is, using an existing fit for purpose LiC, as is said to be the case for ~60% of brownfield premises in the current FttP footprint.
I think I am doing like for like costings.
But one side does not include CPE, and is based on supposedly generous assumptions that are not likely to include 'capitalised internal labor'.
I understand your reluctance to give any credence to nbnTM or even NBNCo figures, however once the makeup of those figures is clearly understood, it would be very surprising to find they are not correct.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
You do understand that the nbnTM $250 cost differential is against a FttP "Best Case Install", and not the average cost? That is, using an existing fit for purpose LiC, as is said to be the case for ~60% of brownfield premises in the current FttP footprint.
Quigley put the cost at $1,100-1,500 (iirc). So we compare $400 (Telsoc) + CPE to $1,100 for FTTP. For the difference to be just $250 the CPE would have to cost $450. I don't believe it.
But one side does not include CPE, and is based on supposedly generous assumptions that are not likely to include 'capitalised internal labor'.
I'm using Quigley's numbers which didn't include all the later 'add ons'. I think that's like for like.
I understand your reluctance to give any credence to nbnTM or even NBNCo figures, however once the makeup of those figures is clearly understood, it would be very surprising to find they are not correct.
Are you prepared to apply that logic to the strategic review and the cost-benefit analysis? I'm not. I think the NBNCo has manufactured figures to fit the argument, ie. FTTN is the way to go.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
Not with estimates like this.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute. I don't think this government would.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute. I don't think this government would.
the current one may not, but if Labor do get in then they may.
The Liberals overturned so many "conventions" in this term that it wouldn't surprise me if some action was not taken on many things not just NBN Co Limited.
And the Previous Government Cabinet discussions and other documents now seem open game for Royal Commissions
If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
Except that NBN has already contractors out and about in SA and WA installing HFC lead-ins and even reports of HFC infill as part of the current HFC Build. If Labor do order a cease and desist this is certainly a waste of taxpayer money (but no different to those HFC areas that underwent unnecessary pit and duct remediation for FTTP and then were culled from the map, like 6APP-05, see http://blog.jxeeno.com/nbn-co
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute
The AFP? :)
the current one may not, but if Labor do get in then they may.
I think Labor will do a number of 'independent reviews' that come up with different numbers and a different solution. Then everyone will change ends and the arguing will continue. The big difference this time is they're not starting from scratch so they should get things done quite quickly.
And the Previous Government Cabinet discussions and other documents now seem open game for Royal Commissions
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
HFC is not the great saviour of the NBN. It has a limited capacity because of its design. The thing is that Telstra HFC is also generally in the same area as Optus HFC, so it is not as though it will cover a greater area. In fact FTTN is have to be used to fill in the shortfall.
It looks like Labor are trying to make the NBN an election issue.
Tanya Plibersek posted this video on Facebook today
https://www.facebook.co
#NBNfails
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
I understand what you mean here. And if there was some way to ensure the LNP would never do such a thing in the future it would be good to make an end of it for the very reason you allude to: that a political RC is a bad thing.
It must, of course, be said there is no way to ensure the LNP wouldn't do it again, so Labor not doing it would be to give the LNP a weapon that only they would use. There's no point in Labor playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules if the LNP won't. Nor is there any point in Labor setting an example because the LNP won't see it that way; they would see it as political weakness to not play dirty. In my opinion, of course.
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government. In the case of so many things to do with the MTM fiasco I believe there may be just cause for an RC.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
That is why you engage a number of consultants to contribute to your reviews, and you tell them what you want to find. That way no single person owns or is responsible for the conclusions.
You also do these reviews as early as possible, so you can load up the existing technology with "Actuals" including trials and prior to efficiency gains. Then you use "blue sky" assumptions for your preferred technologies as there is no possibility of actuals being available.
Oh, and when it comes to CPP calculations, you load prior technologies with the all the costs of trials and early builds where the best approach was still being assessed. You also load it up with the legal settlement costs for abandoning FTTP contracts.
But when it comes to changing access technologies, you don't book the IT system changes required against the new access technologies CPP but instead across the entire build. This lets you book an extra $1b against mostly FTTP as HFC and FTTN have rolled out to sweet FA premises.
So yeah, I think it is possible for them to cook the books and I do believe they have. But I suspect it may not be prosecutable, just that it wouldn't pass the pub test.
I've said this before, but I would be really interested in hearing what Rue's honest advice would be for a changed government without Bill Morrow sitting next to him at the table.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government.
I've never believed the corruption stuff. I think the MTM is just bad policy badly executed. I think Labor will have a RC into the finance sector, including the regulators. I don't think they'll also have one into Turnbull's ego. I think they can make the point much better by just getting the NBN back on track.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government. In the case of so many things to do with the MTM fiasco I believe there may be just cause for an RC
Malcolm had to come up with a non FTTP NBN proposal to keep his portfolio (and membership) in the TA LNP.
Once the coup happened, he could hardly go back and change it, as he would lose all remaining credibility. So we have bad and horrendously expensive policy perpetuated so he can keep his position.
No conspiracy, just a severe case of lack of vision by TA and MT. MT should have thought about what would happen if he had to implement his policy.
Of course the nbn sale after the election may be a different thing. All MT.
It would help if Labor came out with a detailed policy
In light of the AFP raids and the subsequent document 'distribution', should we be asking Bill or Malcolm what that policy is?
I think the MTM is just bad policy badly executed
And how do you account for the fraudulent reports and reviews then? Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals corruption in my book.
Quigley put the cost at $1,100-1,500 (iirc).
Quigleys evidence to the senate on the 19/04/13 was that estimated at completion (EAC) of volume sites was inline with the 2102 Corporate plan @ $1100.
His $1375 figure includes the 'capitalised internal labour' cost to present a like for like comparison to figures nbnTM were quoting, and may include premises outside the volume sites.
So we compare $400 (Telsoc) + CPE to $1,100 for FTTP. For the difference to be just $250 the CPE would have to cost $450.
No because the $250 differential claims are for FttDp costs of $729 (actually these can really only be categorised as estimates) made against the low end FttP costs at $977. Once again � it is not clear whether any of these costs are 'fully loaded'.
The $1100 cost for FttP is an EAC average across the FttP footprint that is not 'fully loaded'.
The $400 (Telsoc) cost is a guestimate, based on a 'generous allowance' being added to a manufacturers cost estimate which includes zero detail of what it actually entails.
Are you prepared to apply that logic to the strategic review and the cost-benefit analysis? I'm not. I think
the NBNCo has manufactured figures to fit the argument, ie. FTTN is the way to go.
Of course not. There are serious problems with the SR numbers. I agree that management has manufactured figures to suit their agenda. However, I don't believe they have misreported actuals. Here are a couple of examples from that document which are germane to our current discussion.
Page 62 � Exhibit 2-26:
LNDN Cost per premises:
CP2012 = 1054
Current Normalised* EAC = 1383 *(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
Revised Outlook = 1997 � WTF??? Why you ask? � Because REDACTED
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
Demand Drops:
CP2012 = 344
Current LTD = 763 � This seems to be a blowout
Revised Outlook = 786 � That is not a huge increase on the LTD, but this is being phased out
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
Bulk/Build Drops:
CP2012 = 328
Current LTD = 314
Revised Outlook = 682 � WTF??? Why you ask? � No reason given
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
In Premises Only:
CP2012 = 408
Current LTD = 433
Revised Outlook = 537 � WTF??? Why you ask? � No reason given and suggestions from the FttDp leaked doc suggest it might be 320 in their current thinking.
Reporting of actuals for the build is littered with qualifiers. There was a report to the parliamentary joint committee by NBNCo on 19/04/13 that showed that actuals for the various early release sites and Type 1 and Type 2 architecture sites for the LNDN, and Customer connect actuals for the initial sites and the volume sites. It should be noted that this document states that the Customer Connect figure for volume sites @ $1100 was for demand drop installs which also included Battery Backup units and Telstra Lead-in acquisition costs.
Not with estimates like this.
Not for estimates perhaps, but for actual figures I think you will find there are.
I need a shower after diving back into the Strategic Review.
guys billshorten as debate today at 7.30 , do u think he will announce something about the nbn today
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
And how do you account for the fraudulent reports and reviews then? Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals corruption in my book.
Yep, the situation around the reports and reviews seems really fishy. I think those probably are essentially fraudulent. Those were mostly all commissioned by the federal Comms department (i.e Turnbull) though.
Bill and the rest of Malcolm's handpicked management I don't think are really corrupt though. Mainly just incompetent and beholden to the findings of the dodgy reports.
Oh, and when it comes to CPP calculations, you load prior technologies with the all the costs of trials and early builds where the best approach was still being assessed.
I understand that and was alluding to it in my previous post here.
Page 62 � Exhibit 2-26:
LNDN Cost per premises:
CP2012 = 1054 **According to the document I am referring to below this figure is actually 1200 (1150 � 1250)
Current Normalised* EAC = 1383 *(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
Revised Outlook = 1997 � WTF??? Why you ask? � Because REDACTED
It is this rider which requires further clarification
*(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
I also mentioned the report to the parliamentary joint committee by NBNCo on 19/04/13 that showed that actuals for the various early release sites and Type 1 and Type 2 architecture sites for the LNDN.
That document listed the following distinct rollout types (if I can call them that) and LNDN costs (Rounded to the nearest 100):
Tasmania Pre-Release Actual = 5000
Tasmania Stage 2 Actual = 4000
First Release Sites Actual = 3100 (Mainland?)
Type 1 In Service EAC = 1800
Type 2 In Service EAC = 1200
FSAMs Work Commenced EAC = 1100 � 1400
2012/15 Corp Plan FY2013 = 1200
According to me, the wording of the Strategic Review is ambiguous enough to allow management to use costs from the the Type 1 and Type 2 architecture FSAMs at least and possibly even the First Release Sites also.
So yeah, I think it is possible for them to cook the books and I do believe they have.
Once again I think they have been very careful to ensure figures they referred to as 'Actuals' are in fact accurate. The 'fully loaded' costings they refer to are a case in point. The accounting treatment is different, but in no way is it illegal.
EDIT: It is ethically questionable when this figure is knowingly compared to one that has been calculated in a different way, but not illegal.
This is a perfect example of Turnbulls' lack of moral compass.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
No question asked on nbn subject but Bill did mention they would reign in the rollout delays and cost in his closing speech. That is all I heard.
Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals ...
... politics. Both sides. Sad, but that's how I see it.
I need a shower after diving back into the Strategic Review.
I'm really sorry about this. I didn't mean to start a detailed debate. I just didn't believe FTTdp is $250 per premises less than FTTP. I do believe they've skewed the figures to make FTTN look better.
Quigleys evidence to the senate on the 19/04/13 was that estimated at completion (EAC) of volume sites was inline with the 2102 Corporate plan @ $1100.
Yep, my fault. The $1,100-1,400 was for fibre down the street. The premises connection was $1,100 as you say.
(wrong button) edit:
Here are a couple of examples from that document which are germane to our current discussion.
So the premises connection is either $736 or $747 or $1,219 (wtf) depending on which numbers you use. If the first two are right then I'll have to accept the $250-300 difference.
... politics. Both sides. Sad, but that's how I see it.
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
I'm really sorry about this. I didn't mean to start a detailed debate.
No need to apologise, it is from such detailed analysis that everyones understanding is improved. I know mine is when I have to document the arguments I think are valid.
I just don't believe FTTdp is $250 per premises less than FTTP.
As I said, the reality is not that FttDp is $250 less than FttP 'on average' (as is perhaps being claimed by some).
It is that FttDp may be ~$250 less than the FttP 'best case install' scenario.
The sckipio website has this to say regarding comparisons to FttP.
Unfortunately, the cost to implement fiber all the way to a consumer�s home can be very substantial � as much as $4,000 per subscriber. Most of this cost relates to trenches that need to be dug between the curb and the home and other home installation costs. (my italics)
This is not the case if there is a fibre path to the premises using existing infrastructure, as is the case for ~60% of the current FttP brownfields footprint.
With regard to the leaked document FttDp costings, given a trial size of 1, any figures for FttDp from nbnTM must be considered for what they are � estimates.
Given the timing of the leaked document (02/02/15), and the lack of certainty regarding the configuration of the solutions being investigated (let alone settled on), it is difficult to see how they have arrived at a number which ends in a 9 for the proposed customer connect cost.
EDIT:
So the premises connection is either $736 or $747 or $1,219 (wtf) depending on which numbers you use. If the first two are right then I'll have to accept the $250-300 difference.
No, the numbers I quoted from the strategic review indicate*:
'Demand Drop' was 1196 LTD and would become 1323 in the revised outlook.
'Build/Bulk Drop' was 747 LTD and would become 1115 in the revised outlook.
*(Provided the redacted line in the table does not have a material effect on the numbers we are discussing)
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
It would seem a good bet that would only be applicable if there was a change of govt going by past history since last election....no faith at all for any accountability what so ever...
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
The motivation is what makes them low...This nbn MTM farce speaks for itself and is clearly documented with Turnbull's hand on helm...regardless of fault shift to NBN Co...
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
nailed it.
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
I was thinking of the Implementation Study which said Labor could build their NBN for almost exactly the same price, $42.8bn versus $43bn, in competition with Optus and Telstra. That looked a bit convenient at the time and looked even more dodgy when Conroy later decided to pay Telstra ~$90bn over 30 years.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
AS usual Zealot you only see what you want to see and usually that's usually the the part you want to see. I suuggest you get on iView and take anther look. SHorten does raise NBN in his closing speech.
If we apply the usual logic you and Kingy do the lack of reference to NBN by Turnbull must mean he is hiding and very reluctant to talk about NBN because of great embarrassment with the lack of performance and failure of FTTN....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
That doesn't mean it's not an election issue � if anything it's now a bigger issue thanks to the LNP raids.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor says they want to roll out more Fibre then they need to prove how much it will cost.
Who still haven't acknowledged the cost and time blow outs.
The LNP promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 � it's been linked to before and I'll do it again:
http://www.abc.net.au/mediaw
Does this standard also apply to the LNP?
What do you think about their cost blow out?
I guess it doesn't matter as the NBN has hit all the "revised" targets � it's just a pity that 95% of connections are on fttp.
I guess the 2016 promise isn't real either.
SHorten does raise NBN in his closing speech.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
For me, Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though. So far, Labor has campaigned on claimed government cover ups, cost blow outs and delays. If fibre is the way to go then I would have expected that Labor would be talking more about the economic benefits of FTTP and and the need to recover lost economic opportunity.
If we apply the usual logic you and Kingy do the lack of reference to NBN by Turnbull must mean he is hiding and very reluctant to talk about NBN
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known. Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative. Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM
You logic is bad, I suggest you revisit it and note where you went wrong.
Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though
You don't? How about Nodelotto, what's fair about that? How about the digital divide? Also unfair.
economic benefits of FTTP and and the need to recover lost economic opportunity
Still early days yet.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
No one can "improve" the MTM. The only way to improve it is to get rid of it.
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known.
And yet they refuse to talk about it, to address the cost blow outs, the delays, the moving goal posts and the missed targets. Because they know it's a dud, they're just hoping Australia doesn't find out in time.
Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
It's likely too late for a complete switch, labor need to find out what the details of all the deals are before they can present any viable solution.
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
Which they can't realistically do until they have all the details. Details which NBN co and the govt. aren't providing.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
That's wishful thinking on your part, but the fact is that the MTM doesn't need to be improved � it needs to be replaced.
For me, Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though.
Really? You're unfamiliar with the concept of "the haves and the have-nots", and you're unfamiliar with node lotto?
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known.
It's already well known for not meeting even one of its policy objectives.
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
There is no such thing as the Coalition's NBN!
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
Of course we can � the MTM is a failure and can be improved on several ways.
The only way to improve it is to get rid of it.
Obviously the Labor party will not do that. Makes a mockery of their anger over costs and delays.
And yet they refuse to talk about it
Scrutiny of the NBN happens at parliamentary committees and is also discussed in mainstream media when financial reports are released. It's as if Bill Shorten just found out about the NBN.
It's likely too late for a complete switch
Not if fibre is the only way to go.
Details which NBN co and the govt. aren't providing.
There were leaks. If those leaks are credible then Labor should have more than enough information to form policy.
Makes a mockery of their anger over costs and delays.
Blaming the ALP for the LNP's mistakes � again.
Malcolm promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs minimum for all by 2016 � he has failed on all counts.
The ALP can announce whatever they want � as long as the cost overrun isn't doubled then the LNP have nothing to complain about � especially as thanks to their "solution" it may have to now be brought onto budget.
Why are we so concerned about the cost of the nbn anyway � it's a network that will pay for itself many times over just as the copper can has.
The nbn will cost around the same amount as the gold plating of the energy networks � unlike those it will add to the gdp of the country.
If it's a "it's only for leisure purposes" then the same argument could be used against roads, rail, television, radio and the copper can.
If it's a "private does it better" argument � the fact that the copper/hfc networks are so degraded and the fact that both hfc networks were not finished demonstrates that infrastructure competition does not work.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor says they want to roll out more Fibre then they need to prove how much it will cost.
You mean like the LNP not disclosing that it would be paying Telstra and Optus billions of dollars for access to their HFC network and degraded copper network that Telstra was paid to shut down?
Or the fact that NBNCo has purchased many tens of thousands of dollars worth of copper that it will use to replace major parts of the degraded copper network they paid for?
Or that by implementing the discredited MTM, NBNCo now has to maintain and upgrade a complex network comprising up to 5 different technologies instead of just one technology with the GPON it shut down?
Once again the LNP supporters are blaming the ALP and (yet again) ignoring the issues with their own solution.
The LNP have nothing on this � they've created the mess and it will have serious consequences for years to come.
I hope protecting Rupert's interest was worth it.
the MTM is a failure and can be improved on several ways.
We still have to hear from Labor on that. How is it that that whirlpoolians can talk about the HFC rollout and cost per premises (in the last few pages of this very thread no less!) in great detail but Jason Clare can't? In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
The ALP can announce whatever they want � as long as the cost overrun isn't doubled then the LNP have nothing to complain about � especially as thanks to their "solution" it may have to now be brought onto budget.
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
You mean like the LNP not disclosing that it would be paying Telstra and Optus billions of dollars for access to their HFC network and degraded copper network that Telstra was paid to shut down?
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
The LNP promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 � it's been linked to before and I'll do it again:
http://www.abc.net.au/media
Not too sure what you are talking about, this is the Labor thread.
I hope protecting Rupert's interest was worth it.
Rupert�s lackey�s are always proud of their work, especially when it screws up any progress in this country.
here is no such thing as the Coalition's NBN!
Yup
LNP slimebulls mess.
Just dandy. :0<
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense????
Is it commonsense to pay for a network that needed to be upgraded without actually knowing the state of the network?
Is it commonsense to purchase a network that has limited connectivity and needs a major upgrade to come close to what is promised for the NBN?
Is it commonsense to purchase networks from two competitors where the networks overlay each other?
Is it commonsense to place an ongoing financial burden on NBNCo to install, maintain and upgrade multiple technologies instead of a single one?
Apparently, the LNP proponents of the MTM NBN do not have this thing called commonsense.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
Only you could come to that conclusion Kingy other than zealot maybe. Turnbull certainly didn't as he is mute on anything NBN at all.
Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though.
Fairness eh? What is fair about going to the last election with many promises and breaking almost all � in particular NBN...$29.5B fully costed now $56+B and growing, ready to go but 2 � years to start anything other than FTTP etc and then that is a failure with 25MB/s at least by 2016, now impossible. WOW ...that's all about fairness to the Australian public, eh?
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
If you haven't noticed Labor put a plan into place in 2010 � FTTP. That is their Plan and I'd suggest it just needs to be rejigged to bring to a halt the LNP MTM total failure...that is far from an alternative. NO new world solution needed when it is all there, just how you do it. You will just have to wait until Labor tell you Kingy, they work to their agenda not yours... can you wait a couple of weeks?
Apparently, the LNP proponents of the MTM NBN do not have this thing called commonsense.
Common sense is becoming an extinct commodity now.
LNP proves how they can destroy all factors of common sense with their MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Not too sure what you are talking about, this is the Labor thread.
Nice diversion � but it still doesn't answer the question.
You are attacking the ALP and yet you haven't acknowledged the issues with the MTM.
If the ALP's rollout costs 10-15 billion more, but has a return on investment that's 3-4 times as much you will still pick holes in it.
The ALP rollout wasn't perfect, but it didn't double the costs and time frames and could give users a minimum speed.
As for HFC � it all depends on what the LNP have signed.
I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
nothing odd about it. you seem to think its the ALP that are in government over the last 3 years. HINT: Its the LNP thats in power, DH!
Obviously the Labor party will not do that.
What's obvious to you is not obvious to anyone outside the Liberal party.
Scrutiny of the NBN happens at parliamentary committees
You're not seriously suggesting that nbn�'s performance at parliamentary committees has been open, honest and transparent are you?
There were leaks. If those leaks are credible then Labor should have more than enough information to form policy.
LOL, tell that to Ziggy who claims they are stolen misinformation.
Is it commonsense to pay for a network that needed to be upgraded without actually knowing the state of the network?
Is it commonsense to purchase a network that has limited connectivity and needs a major upgrade to come close to what is promised for the NBN?
Is it commonsense to purchase networks from two competitors where the networks overlay each other?
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra.
Is it commonsense to place an ongoing financial burden on NBNCo to install, maintain and upgrade multiple technologies instead of a single one?
No need to get angry. Labor has been very quiet on the HFC deals and they initiated the process to pay off Telstra and Optus.
The HFC network will have north of 3M premises it covers 30% of Australian premises
3M * 4000 per premise for FTTH is $12B to replace the HFC network with FTTP, likely a lot more.
That $12B is a burden as it will incur interest costs, upgrading HFC will be less of a burden as it will cost far less.
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
We still have to hear from Labor on that
Speaking of hearing from Labor ... you have forgotten ... these are politicians we're talking about. And this is during an election campaign. They choose when to release their polcies ... not you.
In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN.
That's hilarious, considering you didn't cast that sort of scrutiny over the lack of Coalition solutions over the term of the Labor government ... which is ... they had no policy until just before the election.
It is interesting to hear you bleat about Labor's lack of speech when you had no problems with the other side last time.
Just the usual KingForce double standards eh?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
That is impossible.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense says you don't try to "upgrade" end of life infrastructure when you can get a better result much cheaper with a replacement.
Not too sure what you are talking about
We are talking about your claims that nbn� are doing a good job when they have failed to meet every election promise.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra.
That is a blatant lie.
No need to get angry.
There is every need to get angry with this negligent waste of money.
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
You're living in an alternate reality world � in the real world, HFC networks are being replaced with FTTP because the HFC costs a fortune to maintain and cannot deliver the speeds (and revenue) required.
You're living in an alternate reality world � in the real world, HFC networks are being replaced with FTTP because the HFC costs a fortune to maintain and cannot deliver the speeds (and revenue) required.
Hell, in quite a few areas, even NBN co is replacing the HFC. There are significant overbuilds of the Optus HFC, with FTTN!
https://twitter.com/DCoopes/status/733940743803260928
The whole shebang is a mess. Ok, Labor need to release their policy, but they'll do it in their own time, because no matter what they release, they will face a very hostile media. But the libs need to state their policies, because whoever is in, is going to need to fix something.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
Can you point to anyone anywhere buying an HFC network (or copper network) for them to upgrade or "fine-tune"?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded
Please provide a source for this opinion.
HFC is a good technology, however in Australia the network's are outdated and Optus has issues with congestion and degradation.
The nbn has changed some areas from hfc to fttn.
Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
Only in your reality. Whirlpool recognizes the mess Turnbull has made with his MTM policy, and the serious delays his policy has caused, and know the pragmatic approach will be to make the most of the crap pile Turnbull has left and implement measures that will actually move us to fibre. This will entail changing some area where FTTN has not started yet to FTTdp or FTTP, and providing the poor suckers with FTTN a planned and costed upgrade path to FTTP. There should also be a plan put in place to get HFC people onto FTTP as well. Turnbull is doing none of those things.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
Justify that statement and please don't use NBN Co discredited SR and CBA data as that is clearly false.... waste of time.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense, eh? Walk us through that taking into account more than just up front costs.....
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
You and Kingy are really, really stressing over this ....why?
We still have to hear from Labor on that. How is it that that whirlpoolians can talk about the HFC rollout and cost per premises (in the last few pages of this very thread no less!) in great detail but Jason Clare can't? In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
Maybe you need to get through your head.
"HFC was Liberals Ideas."
Repeat after me. "HFC was Liberals Ideas."
Clare never intended or wanted to put in obsolete technologies such as FTTN or HFC.
Sorry but you can't blame Labor for Liberals Flap ups.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra
This is not the same thing and you know it. Both Optus and Telstra were paid compensation for them moving their Internet customers over from HFC to the FTTP NBN. It is the LNP who then paid even more for access to the HFC to deliver the discredited MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
How can you speak for Labor when they havn't announced anything. Also the Liberal initiated AFP raid sealed their docs.
ALP will announce their NBN policy when its ready SoonTM.
Anything else you say is just noise and should be ignored until the policy is announced.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
That's not the important measure though. You should ask which is more cost-effective.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense is a poor indicator of anything. Let's start with what we're trying to achieve and then do a proper comparison.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
I hope they will at least look at it as potentially a cost-effective interim solution. That shouldn't take long given all the design work that's been done for the MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
3M * 4000 per premise for FTTH is $12B to replace the HFC network with FTTP, likely a lot more.
You are being a little disingenuous there aren't you mate?
It costs $2150 per premises under NBN Co's estimate to activate a HFC premises. That is $5.55b the difference not $12b, but seeing as you are so concerned about the cost of servicing the extra debt, the 10 year bond coupon rate right now is 4.25%, lets call it 5% because I'm feeling generous to you today. That is $2.775 billion over the 10 years of the bond.
It costs $319 per premises passed per year to maintain the HFC network, but only costs $88 per premises passed per year to maintain the FTTP network, thats a difference of $231 per premises per year. Thats a cost of 693 million per year extra to keep that HFC network running, or over the 10 years $6.93 billion. It looks to be that the debt bill is already covered.
But for some reason I still feel like being nice to you, because what about the lost revenue for the 2 years longer that has been estimated for HFC areas to be replaced. Lets have a look at that then too. NBN co estimate that HFC will bring in an ARPU of $41.37 per month averaged over a 3 year period. Over the 10 years thats 4900 and something, but lets call it $5000 because again I'm feeling generous. That brings in $15 billion, that does not cover the $6.45 billion to bring the HFC network into NBN control, and the $9.57 billion ($319 * 3 million premises * 10 years) in operating costs. The interest also hasn't been paid. Lets see how we go with the FTTP build
Lets look at NBN Co's revenue prediction for FTTP in those HFC areas. I'll give 2 full years of no revenue to FTTP because while the first areas will come up rather quickly, I believe from the data David Cooper has processed the process is down to about 9 months, and multiple SAMs will come up at the same time, but the last ones won't come up until after the 2 years so the revenue will come close to balancing it out. The revenue is slightly higher at $48.75 according to NBN Co's numbers. That comes out at $4680 per premises passed over the 10 years, including 2 years of no revenue. This gives us a total revenue of $14.04 billion over the 10 years, indeed lower than the HFC option. This also doesn't cover the $12b to build the network, and $2.64 billion to maintain it, but has still cost less overall.
You may be right, the interest has tipped the balance in favour of HFC, except... I used favourable rounding for HFC and unfavourable rounding for FTTP, and operating costs were included for the whole 10 years, which also wouldn't be accurate, but I'm not going to bother redoing those figures to try and make FTTP look more favourable, and there is also an assumption that from day 1 the HFC network is magically operating and moves through to full subscriber count. This is unlikely to be the case, but again, I'm not going to manipulate assumptions so I can get FTTP vs HFC numbers in my favour.
My question to you is which is more desirable? $1.02b deficit between revenue and build/opex cost plus the interest on the bonds for HFC, or $600 million deficit between revenue and build/opex costs plus the interest on bonds for FTTP? The total build and opex cost for HFC over 10 years is $16.02 billion, but for FTTP is $14.64 billion. Given the peak funding requirement to be able to cover HFC, given at the end of the 10 years it still hasn't paid off its bill either, that the $2.775billion in extra interest is really going to matter because you are going to need that for HFC too.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
LOL fine tuning.
Seriously you need to get a grip.
There's nothing about fine tuning in HFC, Its a complete rebuild in most areas of Sydney where Optus Cable TV runs. It doesn't even deliver Internet services.
Based on the very foundation that Cable TV networks were originally designed for One way TV transmissions. DOCSIS was a hack to make it carry internet. DOCSIS 3.1 is still being developed and will cost more than just to move on and roll out FTTP.
Lets face it, Liberals just bought a junk status (End of life network) from both Telstra and Optus. This is sheer negligence and incompetence and should be brought into question by the public.
This is not the same thing and you know it. Both Optus and Telstra were paid compensation for them moving their Internet customers over from HFC to the FTTP NBN. It is the LNP who then paid even more for access to the HFC to deliver the discredited MTM.
So the NBN Co back in the day signed a $9 Billion deal with Telstra to get access to their pits, dark fibre and exchange and Telstra agreed to "disconnect" its customers from copper and HFC and move them to FTTTP and also in the deal, Telstra would not be able to market their mobile network as an alternative to the NBN for a number of years and they (NBN Co) paid Optus $800 million to take their HFC and get their users off HFC to FTTP.
When the Libs came in and launched their MTM fraudband...went back to Telstra and signed a deal for Telstra to maintain their copper network (for the FTTN rollout and HFC) and from memory the Libs/NBN paid the same price Labor paid for this to happen and I believe Optus payment was slightly lower than what Labor gave
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
No need to get angry.
I'd suggest zealot that if you read anger in that response to you it may well reflect your perception or state rather than cloister's. They were articulate questions, repetitive maybe but fair questions relevant to HFC and nbn.
I note the poster's response to your comment doesn't enter into anything argumentative....says a bit...
upgrading HFC will be less of a burden as it will cost far less.
broaden your horizons past the immediate Zealot do your costing over life of technology and compare revenue potential over 30+years and then talk cost benefit...that ignores potential capability of each network. Only conclusion can be HFC is a dud....
When the Libs came in and launched their MTM fraudband...went back to Telstra and signed a deal for Telstra to maintain their copper network (for the FTTN rollout and HFC) and from memory the Libs/NBN paid the same price Labor paid for this to happen
No, in addition to shifting costs from Telstra to NBNCo as part of the revised deal, Telstra have received billions of dollars worth of no-bid contracts as a direct result of signing the revised deal.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
You call an extra $1.x billion dollars (on top of the $11 billion we're giving Telstra) to make the HFC network fit for purpose ... "fine-tuning" ?
What a ridiculous notion you have there, particularly the "decades to come" drivel. I challenge you to find any reputable source that claims exactly what you just said.
I challenge you to find any reputable source that claims exactly what you just said.
They never provide a source � they assume their opinion is fact.
The ALP will announce their policy soon � why is their any panic over this?
The ALP will announce their policy soon � why is their any panic over this?
They want time to pick it to pieces..
They want time to pick it to pieces..
Which is funny as the LNP have royally screwed up.
Whatever they do, it will be better than the MTM.
Little Steve did a nice number on the estimates. I will just remind one and all that NBN HFC unlike NBN FTTN or FTTP is really novel compared to most world deployment since it will be one of the few that will attempt to:
- have 100% of premises actively connected to HFC for all their phone and broadband needs
- provide a wholesale access regime with consequent overheads
- deploy and rely on D3.1 (EDIT: which by all accounts may be more expensive to do properly than first realised) in order to resolve issues with the severely limited upstream capacity available with D3.0 so HFC can compete with FTTP (and believe it or not FTTN!)
And on top of this we need to remember the unknown extra costs with NBN HFC:
- how many cable lead-ins to premises are required? In 6APP there is a post that 30% of premises required lead-ins, not too bad but no idea how many of these were in the too-hard basket for Telstra/Foxtel.
- how many streets will require HFC infill? In 6APP there was a report confirming one street in an HFC area which had no cable, so infill will be necessary. How many other streets littered in an HFC areas were missed by Telstra?
For Labor the real question is whether they aware of the risks keeping the NBN HFC especially the point of no return when NBN take over the Telstra HFC for the first time. To be honest I would rather HFC areas be left alone and wait for a proper FTTP replacement, perhaps a deal to share revenue with Telstra if HFC areas are the last to get FTTP (so Telstra can milk it some more) and Telstra uncap the upstream (e.g. 35/5 and 100/10 are reasonable) with NBN paying Telstra to maintain and upgrade the HFC network to relieve any congestion as they have been doing recently.
how many streets will require HFC infill? In 6APP there was a report confirming one street in an HFC area which had no cable, so infill will be necessary. How many other streets littered in an HFC areas were missed by Telstra?
They are doing that with fttn rather than hfc
When the Libs came in and launched their MTM fraudband...went back to Telstra and signed a deal for Telstra to maintain their copper network (for the FTTN rollout and HFC)
Telstra to maintain the copper, but at cost to NBN. The copper is now NBN's responsibility. As is all of the asbestos in the pits. That deal, is possibly the worst commercial deal ever made in the history of our government. Why would you take on a copper network, which at the time was of 'unknown quality' � with most reports siding with "pretty bad" compounded with the fact that its full of asbestos?
Previously, the ducts were Telstra's responsibility and cost issue.
Telstra to maintain the copper, but at cost to NBN. The copper is now NBN's responsibility. As is all of the asbestos in the pits. That deal, is possibly the worst commercial deal ever made in the history of our government. Why would you take on a copper network, which at the time was of 'unknown quality' � with most reports siding with "pretty bad" compounded with the fact that its full of asbestos?
Previously, the ducts were Telstra's responsibility and cost issue.
Because Tony Abbott was hellbent on destroying the NBN as we knew it and wanted to implement their "cheaper", "more affordable" NBN...and destroyed it
And it was a double win for Telstra (where they got money from the Labor government 3 years previous and now got it from the Liberals (via NBN) to basically do a 180...
They are doing that with fttn rather than hfc
Only at the DA level which can comprise several streets. If the granularity is finer than that then NBN has to decide HFC for the whole DA or FTTN for the whole DA. If they decide FTTN and you are one of the few with HFC you won't be none too happy!
NBN has to decide HFC for the whole DA or FTTN for the whole DA. If they decide FTTN and you are one of the few with HFC you won't be none too happy!
I recall PeteP you were in 6SP in a small sector with HFC surrounded by FTTP. Did you end up with FTTP or HFC?...the latter I hope...
recall PeteP you were in 6SP in a small sector with HFC surrounded by FTTP. Did you end up with FTTP or HFC?...the latter I hope..
I was in 6APP-05 (FTTP) now apparently I am in 6APP-61 (HFC). In our HFC exchange area NBNCo decided that 6APP-07 should proceed to FTTP (overbuild the HFC) but not the rest of the area. No(n)sense since 6APP-05 entered Build Prep for FTTP before 6APP-07 but was then removed. If this doesn't reflect how badly mismanaged NBN/MTM is I don't know what will. At least if Labor does the same it will be to delay the Build for an improvement not a degradation!
NBNCo decided that 6APP-07 should proceed to FTTP (overbuild the HFC) but not the rest of the area.
Sorry I messed up my posts I meant hope you got FTTP but it sounds like you are still in limbo really... what a bloody mess. Can't be technology build driven reasons only politic agenda surely.
From Actual Rollout Progress thread : � whrl.pl/ReDjxM
Is there a HFC rollout schedule announced? I thought HFC was on hold.
You are being a little disingenuous there aren't you mate?
It costs $2150 per premises under NBN Co's estimate to activate a HFC premises. That is $5.55b the difference not $12b, but seeing as you are so concerned about the cost of servicing the extra debt, the 10 year bond coupon rate right now is 4.25%, lets call it 5% because I'm feeling generous to you today. That is $2.775 billion over the 10 years of the bond.
A really interesting analysis LS, but I think there are a few minor blunders in it, beyond just being generous. The only one against FTTP is I think an apples with apples comparison of OPEX has HFC at $319pp and FTTP at $266pp, not $88pp as you state. These Opex figures include conduit lease payments to Telstra.
On the other side of the ledger, Zealot and you include the cost of financing the entire CPP, which includes the capitalised/grossed up Telstra conduit leases. Effectively this part of the "build" is lease financed by Telstra, not the taxpayer, so should/do not appear in the Capex nor Peak funding figures. Based on the same source as the Opex and Revenue numbers you've quoted, Capex pp for HFC is $1489, and for FTTP $2550. I'm not making this up BTW, these numbers come from nbn�. I'll leave everyone top speculate as to why nbn� think capex for FTTP in the HFC footprint would be $2500pp and not $4400pp as they keep telling everyone :-).
I make HFC NoP pp at $496-$319=$177 for an RoI of 11.9% FTTP $585-$266=$319 for an ROI of 12.5% (It's actually Cash-on-Cash return, but it's a near enough approximation).
Both of these are more than enough to cover the cost of debt finance at current rates.
Where I think SL has been too generous to the Zealot is assuming the FTTP option has to finance the capex difference over the full 10 years. If FTTP takes longer to come on stream, there will be a commensurate delay in capital expenditure. If you are going to consider the revenue differential over 8 years, the cost of financing should also be considered over the same period. I make the capex difference $1061pp or ~$3bil over 3mil premises.
These are nbn�'s numbers.
Now, I have grave reservations about these HFC projected returns for two main reasons:
1) The idea HFC will be able to maintain market share and revenue without additional Capex over a decade is laughable. (FTTP will have a similar issue too if nbn� persist with 4gpon too BTW)
2) These are Capex numbers are based on averages, and nbn� have already concluded they can't achieve their target CPPs for HFC without doing a significant portion of the infill in FTTN. And the HFC and FTTN footprints don't neatly border DA boundaries. In DAs where they build a node because they are only partially covered by HFC, effectively they are building both techs � or at least paying for both. In other words, they are double counting premises when they state their CPP numbers for different MTM techs. I *think* the way this will play itself out is the HFC footprint will bleed to FTTN, while the total HFC Capex is will remain more or less the same. This will show up as either increased CPP actuals, or a lower uptake rate (given premises passed by both techs would likely only buy one). Either way, I don't believe this has been properly considered by nbn� yet.
IMHO there is some merit in persisting with the HFC build/DS 3.1 upgrade, though it is fairly clearly financially inferior to a straight FTTP overbuild. This is something the US cable operators are currently coming to terms with. In nbn�'s case it really depends on how much capital nbn� have already committed to operation CF as to whether or not i is better to proceed or not.
On the limited evidence available, persisting with the HFC rollout or cancelling it in favour of an FTTP over build are both viable options. But one thing is clear (to me at least): the infill should be FTTP not FTTN. It'll be interesting to see how the ALP proceed on this front if they get the opportunity.
However, on the wealth of evidence available, I think GMZ is being perhaps a touch more than "a little" disingenuous :-).
so delimiter published this article but i cant see any video for bill shorten announcing this !
https://delimiter.com.au/201
so delimiter published this article but i cant see any video for bill shorten announcing this !
The article simply reconfirms my view that Labor are really more interests in political point scoring over the NBN as expected. I can't really blame them since there is little they can really do to change the current MTM without making things worse, other than to say "more fibre" and dangle FTTdp as a solution, which is probably what NBN has in mind anyway in the long term. HFC is off the table since the deal with Telstra has to be examined closely in terms of liabilities if NBN changes its mind again.
labor is taking very long time to release the policy as they said they will announce it next week
labor is taking very long time to release the policy as they said they will announce it next week
They have to play the politics on this one, and they have to do it very carefully, because the instant they announce anything NBN, they are going to face a very hostile News Limited media.
News Ltd has already been extremely hostile towards them regarding NBN, and will only ramp it up on any policy announcement.
Hell, just look around here at some of the Liberal shills for examples of this.
They have to play the politics on this one, and they have to do it very carefully, because the instant they announce anything NBN, they are going to face a very hostile News Limited media.
Exactly.. timing is critical..
News Ltd has already been extremely hostile towards them regarding NBN, and will only ramp it up on any policy announcement.
I'd give the same advice to Federal Labor as I gave to the Federal Coalition in 2013 on a prudent and efficient NBN Policy for an Opposition to take to an election.
Give some very broad intentions, but do not commit to any fuller plan, changes in technologies or costings until post election after the the following info has been provided and assessed.
1. A thorough debriefing from NBN Co Board, Management and staff and the Department of Communications (Blue Book)
2. All existing major CiC contractual agreements have been analysed
3. The currently CiC and not available to the Federal Coalition plans, issues, strengths, weaknesses, risks, threats and opportunities have been reviewed.
A very small target strategy along with a general commitment to roll out more fibre than the Federal Coalition. Particularly in areas that require substantial copper remediation or replacement.
To look at better ways to fast track better broadband in underserved areas.
To completely overhaul the technology change program.
More frequent and transparent public reporting
Less combative Corporate Communications
Stop overbuilding competitor networks
Stop the waste in duplication of infrastructure (i.e TPG FTTB)
so delimiter published this article but i cant see any video for bill shorten announcing this !
Announcing what?
labor is taking very long time to release the policy as they said they will announce it next week
Yep, and some voters will need to start sending in their postal votes soon.
You can see the attacks coming.
"How you going to pay for it?"
"How you going to pay for it?"
Something like the NBN is through usage charges, just like building roads and other infrastructure,
The problem is that there are many accounting "tricks" to make a project look good or bad.
The simplest is to demand an absurdly short amortisation period.
If you want to show a project as bad, you defer income but bring forward expenditure.
If you want to show a project as good, you bring forward income and defer expenditure.
and a whole lot of others to boot!
So, whenever you see numbers thrown around, you always need to make sure that the same accounting basis is being used to get to the numbers.
ep, and some voters will need to start sending in their postal votes soon.
Early voting starts June 14 and some 4.5M voters are expected to do that so Labor is most likely to announce NBN Policy a few days before that at latest.
Early voting starts June 14 and some 4.5M voters are expected to do that so Labor is most likely to announce NBN Policy a few days before that at latest.
And, people will have to vote and post them back pretty well near straight away as it can take up to 2 weeks to get to the AEC with the wonderful Australia Post delivery system.
So, it needs to come out sooner rather than later, and it needs to be repeated otherwise it will be taken as a throw away line.
"How you going to pay for it?"
By not wasting money and resources overbuilding existing good broadband infrastructure.
By not wasting money and resources competing head-on with companies like the Wondercom owned TPG and their FTTB apartment installations.
With a fraction of the additional Company Tax Revenue that will be received from not providing the Company Tax cuts that the Federal Coalition is so recklessly promising.
Ideally for Optus HFC areas, Federals Labor should commit to a full trial in one large enough geographic location.
A trial that includes
1. Removing every single premise from the Copper Network (except some Special Services)
2. In-fill of everyone with HFC or FTTB, including MDU's and businesses.
3. Seeing how much it costs to upgrade the HFC in an attempt to provide non-congested, reliable low latency services during peak hours and all other hours.
Then deciding whether to proceed with using the Optus HFC.
The only thing missing is including Docsis 3.1 in this trial. A technology that is not ready for the market.
Maybe Federal Labor will not even bother getting NBNCo to implement more extensive Optus HFC trials and just announce that all Optus HFC only areas are to get FTTP / FTTB or FTTdp. With the FTTB rollout to be accelerated.
Unfortunately, it has been widely reported that the NBNCo Telstra HFC agreement appears to have clauses in it that commit NBNCo to taking over the Telstra HFC Network, should they start using even one segment of it.
Docsis 3.1 in this trial. A technology that is not ready for the market.
That doesn't stop nbnco from spruiking it as the HFC panacea just round the corner..
At the moment I 110/2 on HFC, libs have stuffed up nbn so bad right now all I hope is they/lab don't stuff my hfc speed up.
At the moment I 110/2 on HFC, libs have stuffed up nbn so bad right now all I hope is they/lab don't stuff my hfc speed up.
That's one of the big risks of the move from Optus/Telstra HFC to NBN HFC.
Minimising disruption, and human and systematic stuff ups in the change process.
Particularly where those that get stuffed in the process, do not see any material benefits from the change, and do not care for any potentially higher upload speeds or give two hoots about the RSP retail choice options from NBN HFC, or are still under contract with their existing HFC ISP.
Not to forget that to get onto NBN HFC, you will not be able to use your existing Optus/Telstra HFC All in one Optus/Telstra supplied Cable Modem/wireless router, as you will be forced to install a new Cable Modem (with no wireless router built-in) to go onto an NBN HFC Service and then have to attach a seperate router/wireless modem of either your choice (within any NBNCo or RSP minimum requirements) or one supplied by your NBN HFC RSP retailer.
The changeover to new modems and wireless/routers for 3-4 million NBN HFC premise in the next 3-4 years is a huge and exercise in itself.
and do not care for any potentially higher upload speeds
exacerbated by the fact that the upstream capacity will be compromised on HFC given the limited spectrum vs every premises connected (every minor ACK upstream packet all adds up)
or give two hoots about the RSP retail choice options from NBN HFC
if you choose NBN HFC for the improved broadband you need a good quality RSP and with such you pay the same as you would with Telstra anyway
as you will be forced to install a new Cable Modem (with no wireless router built-in) to go onto an NBN HFC Service
most critically because you lose your landline you will require the unbridged RSP supplied router for all your landline services (using VoIP). The diehards don't use landline and do everything in data/mobile land so no problem for them; the entry level people are happy with what the RSP provides, the rest of us who want max. flexibility will suffer (RSP routers are locked down, no smart DNS service/routing control/VPN vs no VoIP landline, I want both!).
The changeover to new modems and wireless/routers for 3-4 million NBN HFC premise in the next 3-4 years is a huge and exercise in itself.
And this massively adds to the cost of the process. It wont show in the end reports � but it adds another billion dollars or so to the cost of internet for end users.
The changeover to new modems and wireless/routers for 3-4 million NBN HFC premise in the next 3-4 years is a huge and exercise in itself.
Complicated if there are only D3.0 NBN cable modems available now and then need to be replaced by D3.1 NBN cable modems in 2 years. Of course that assumes NBNCo actually proceeds with upgrade the HFC to D3.1. We need to remember that is a short term just-in-time prudent and efficient company we are dealing with, if NBN HFC with D3.0 holds its own (i.e. premises really only use 12/1 when they sign up for 25/5 plans or greater) then the upgraded to D3.1 will be delayed accordingly until NBN decided it is needed (you know after enough complaints about congestion have been logged into their system).
We need to remember that is a short term just-in-time prudent and efficient company we are dealing with,
prudent and efficient company ........ hahahahahahahaha .....
The ALP can release this in time � if it's not an election issue (as the MTM supporters are reporting) what is the issue?
The ALP can promise 1gb/s for all by 2019 for 56 billion � it doesn't matter if they don't hit the metrics, all that matters is the promise (it would seem).
They should move fttn to fttdp, keep fttp/fttb/sat where they can and I'm not sure what happens with hfc � maybe upgrade it, infill it and then change it over to fttp down the line.
The ALP can promise 1gb/s for all by 2019 for 56 billion
Why only 1GB/s why not 10Gb/s..... surely cost might be the same.
Limited to FTTP services though.... more excellent reason to just do FTTP..
The ALP can promise 1gb/s for all by 2019 for 56 billion � it doesn't matter if they don't hit the metrics, all that matters is the promise (it would seem).
Labor's Policy "should" provide for the delivery of concurrent services across a FTTH network including
a) 1Gbps for "Residential Customers"
b) 10Gbps for "Residential and SME Customers"
and
c 40Gbps" for Enterprise Customers
Across the same piece of Fibre by migrating to the NG-PON2 Standard and where appropriate provision for 80Gbps and beyond for the market in 2020.
And its not like we would be "Robin St Crusoe" in this Endeavor either!
http://advanced-television.c
Labor's Policy "should" provide for the delivery of concurrent services across a FTTH network including
I totally agree � FTTP should be the technology.
However the LNP have screwed this for everyone � thanks to pursuing fttn/hfc.
The reality is that the ALP have to see what the LNP have put in place and plan accordingly.
They have promised more Fibre � what this means is anyone's guess.
They have promised more Fibre
Well's Labor's promise is clearly different to the Liberal's promise, as the liberal's promised less fibre .... which they have delivered .....regardless that it is a poor promise.
However the LNP have screwed this for everyone
Not for everyone, only places where they are on the 3yr plan and have likely moved to Build Commenced. Those not on the 3yr plan should still be good to go for FTTP and those in Build Preparation may be able to move to FTTP.
Ideally Labor should stop rolling out FTTN, move to FTTdP (FTTP would be preferred), not bother with HFC at all, and for those stuck with FTTN they should come out with some form of NTD so that all the user has to worry about is plugging a router in, even if that NTD only has 1 port on it, so long as it is standardised to exactly what NBN require for VDSL2 FTTN.
But that's just my thoughts on the whole thing, there can still be some salvation for those on FTTN (maybe not in the speed area but at least cleaning up the connection to the network side of it so that the whole thing is standardised like it is for FTTP, FW, and Sat).
Ideally Labor should stop rolling out FTTN, move to FTTdP (FTTP would be preferred), not bother with HFC at all, and for those stuck with FTTN they should come out with some form of NTD so that all the user has to worry about is plugging a router in, even if that NTD only has 1 port on it, so long as it is standardised to exactly what NBN require for VDSL2 FTTN.
I totally agree with everything that you have mentioned. The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
I totally agree with everything that you have mentioned. The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go down this road, I'm not really sure how you would make it affordable (maybe user chips in 25% and NBN chips in the other 75%?), or, before NBNCo starts the actual build they send out flyers asking if anybody wants FTTP so that they can factor that into the build process.
It's a tough one really, I mean, at present if you want FTTP (via FOD), the fibre has to go back to either a splitter that feeds that node (which could be several km away) or even further back on the network.
if you want FTTP (via FOD), the fibre has to go back to either a splitter that feeds that node
Exactly..
The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
Exactly!
$500 or $1000 is much more reasonable.
The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
FoD would be expensive and inefficient to perform for individual premises where FTTN has been implemented. More likely that the entire implementation would be replaced by FTTP, however personally I think getting everyone connected ASAP* is more important now than migrating already connected premises to FTTP.
*Preferably via the most cost effective method for long term implementation.
Exactly!
$500 or $1000 is much more reasonable.
...and if there was sufficient interest for an FDH, and enough FDH's in an FSM to justify just doing full FTTP build .......?
The economics and logistics of this is interesting....
*Preferably via the most cost effective method for long term implementation.
With the most cost effective method being ????
With the most cost effective method being ????
Oh for an honest answer to that question.
...and if there was sufficient interest for an FDH, and enough FDH's in an FSM to justify just doing full FTTP build .......?
The economics and logistics of this is interesting....
Yeah, with regards to areas already with FTTN, It would be interesting to see what happens if the majority of a node want FTTH.
With regards to areas that are in Build Preparation (or possibly Build Commenced) if the majority in a node serving area want FTTH then they should just scrap the idea of plonking a node down and redo it as FTTP (an FTD is capable of serving the area of quite a few nodes, so you probably would need more than 1 node area that wants FTTP).
The logistics for what to do would be very interesting indeed, quite honestly, this is probably the way NBNCo should have gone with the MTM, but we all know it would never have flown with the current government.
Change fttn to fttdp and then give users an upgrade choice and be done with it.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go down this road ...
Sounds like the difference between the ALP's NBN and Malcolm's MTM too.
if the majority in a node serving area want FTTH then they should just scrap the idea of plonking a node down and redo it as FTTP
The ideal world IMO but fitting into an overall design would be challenging for NBN CO and politically for Labor. A new regime of NBN Co committed to FTTP would seize the opportunity unless totally unrealistic financially I'm sure. WOuld be worth doing even if a premium is required.
I still contend the starting point for a revised Labor Plan is the $43B of NBN V1 so if $56B was 'acceptable' for FTTN MTM rubbish being delivered now, the margin is there to play with.
$500 or $1000 is much more reasonable
Agree. Personally I would be prepared to fork out anything up to $5000. Anything greater and I'm better off selling the house and moving. In other words take our mate Malcolm's advice. ;)
however personally I think getting everyone connected ASAP* is more important now than migrating already connected premises to FTTP.
Yep agree here too and I've never stated otherwise to happen. I just want a proper more realistic FOD option developed for those of us in FTTN areas that are willing to pay for it. The current "technology switch" process through NBN is a complete expensive joke.
and for those stuck with FTTN they should come out with some form of NTD so that all the user has to worry about is plugging a router in, even if that NTD only has 1 port on it, so long as it is standardised to exactly what NBN require for VDSL2 FTTN.
Getting back to this point, this is the very first thing that I would like to see happen for those FTTN areas that have progressed too far to be cancelled. It's complete nonsense how a end user has to stuff around organizing their own VDSL modem through the ISP's. FTTP users obviously don't have this issue and neither should those using other technologies.
Yep agree here too and I've never stated otherwise to happen. I just want a proper more realistic FOD option developed for those of us in FTTN areas that are willing to pay for it. The current "technology switch" process through NBN is a complete expensive joke.
that is alright for those that can "afford" to pay for it, but what about those that have been forced onto lines over 1km.
Unless it is a fixed price then those furthest from the node would need to pay more than those near the node.
It is those furthest from the node that may be in more need of fibre, just to get a decent stable connection
It is not like those on long lines chose where the node went
Unless it is a fixed price
It should be a fixed price for all � charge enough to cover the FTTP and nbn covers any other costs.
what about those that have been forced onto lines over 1km.
Unless it is a fixed price then those furthest from the node would need to pay more than those near the node.
The pricing of FoD should be inverse to the quality of your broadband.
So that those further form the nodes pay the least for FoD.
With those closest to the nodes and without any material copper network issues, paying the most for their FoD.
The current "technology switch" process through NBN is a complete expensive joke.
That's cause News Corp does not want people to have 100/40 speeds IMO.
I can see why people are willing to stump up thousands of dollars if it will finally get them fibre to the home. But for renters this is a no go because almost no landlords care about spending money on their properties to make them better for the residents, and there are a lot of renters in Australia. And it shouldn't be necessary for renters to pay for an upgrade to a property that doesn't belong to them.
I hope that Labor have in their plan to not have an upfront fee for the installation of fibre, but to amortise the expense of installation over the life of the usage, like what they were doing before the last election.
FOD is always going to be expensive, because its piecemeal, its one off and each one is going to be a custom install.
Its nothing more than a stupid distraction � and it was enough to get the liberal party votes in the last election.
The solution needs to be, FTTP everywhere. It will work. It will pay for itself (unlike FTTN) we just need someone with the balls to do it.
FOD is always going to be expensive, because its piecemeal, its one off and each one is going to be a custom install.
Exactly, it's missing all the economies of scale you get from a full FTTP roll-out.
The solution needs to be, FTTP everywhere.
Plus a zillion. Malcolm's arguments (or his minions) for his MTM just do not hold water.
Exactly, it's missing all the economies of scale you get from a full FTTP roll-out.
I have some ideas that may offer a potential compromise to the binary MTM/full FttP positions.
It is unlikely to satisfy idealogical supporters of either polar position (perhaps that indicates it is a good idea). The necessity for this compromise is brought about by the escalating costs and delays resulting from the toxic political climate the project has been subject to.
The default position is FttDp using the most cost effective technology (this might be G.Fast, vplus, VDSL2 or some other yet to be commercialised tech over copper) to deliver the final 200? metres. This must be implemented on an appropriate underlying GPON architecture that supports a clear FttP upgrade path (eg. enough fibre to the Dp as is required to support upgrading the existing premises served). The cost differential for installing 1, 4 or 12 fibres to the Dp is marginal.
FttDp connections are 'on demand'. This defers these customer connect CAPEX costs until a service is active.
There is an option to opt-in during the build phase to FttP for the notional cost differential between FttP and FttDp. The reason for the notional charge is to satisfy the equity proposition for the fixed line footprint. This would be managed within the existing planning/notification phases, starting at preliminary design phase and ending at some appropriate time during the construction phase.
Opt-in FttP connections would be constructed via Build/Bulk drop, realising some of the savings benefits of this method. Clearly these connections are highly likely to order a service as soon as possible after RFS is declared, mitigating the moderate increased risk of CAPEX blowouts from unexpectedly high proportions of unsuitable LiCs.
FoD outside the initial FttP opt-in period is at bespoke quoted cost. If no copper based solution was provided this cost is subtracted from the quote (maintaining the equity proposition in the fixed line footprint). Obviously if a copper based solution has already been provided any future FoD upgrade would be at quoted cost.
Based on info from the leaked FttDp document this bespoke FoD cost (excluding FttDp credit estimated at ~$730) could be in the ~$1000 to $2500 range, depending on exact conditions onsite (eg. LiC condition and total distance).
A serious analysis of the proposed HFC rollout must be undertaken. If this path is to be followed I would suggest serious consideration be given to any lead-ins built including both coax and fibre components.
With labour being the greatest cost and an estimated ~2 million infill premises required it may be more appropriate in the medium term to simply roll the above FttDp solution into these areas.
I have some ideas that may offer a potential compromise to the binary MTM/full FttP positions.
Those are the sort of ideas/options I would have thought that Federal Labor would have been looking at over the last few months, as it became clearer that they might actually win Government in 2016.
FttDp connections are 'on demand'.
If you do not have to have either initially, then automatic activation makes sense.
then automatic activation makes sense.
Not sure if we are on the same page.
By 'on-demand' I basically mean that there is fibre running past the premises but no fibre to copper hardware installed until a service is ordered. It is not automatic � it requires a tech to install the pit hardware and perhaps a self install of CPE by the customer
By 'on-demand' I basically mean that there is fibre running past the premises but no fibre to copper hardware installed until a service is ordered
The initial opt-in (build drop) should include FTTdp as well as FTTP imho.
The modem should be automatically sent to the premises if FTTdp is selected, or an NTD install scheduled for FTTP.
I have some ideas that may offer a potential compromise to the binary MTM/full FttP positions.
It is unlikely to satisfy idealogical supporters of either polar position (perhaps that indicates it is a good idea). The necessity for this compromise is brought about by the escalating costs and delays resulting from the toxic political climate the project has been subject to.
I think you are presuming there is an ideological issue with technology choice. The only ideological difference I see is it's not possible to support a decision made by your political opponents.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But for renters this is a no go because almost no landlords care about spending money on their properties to make them better for the residents, and there are a lot of renters in Australia.
About 35% renters I heard the other day.... NBN V1 end to end no up front charges to consumers, ie owners or renters, was a very clever way to prevent the problems. Additionally, renters move from location to location so NBN V1 removed the need for multiple installation costs for individuals. and now we have....? a massive rip off.
Exactly, it's missing all the economies of scale you get from a full FTTP roll-out.
/s
But they are good economic managers!
/s
The default position is FttDp using the most cost effective technology (this might be G.Fast, vplus, VDSL2 or some other yet to be commercialised tech over copper) to deliver the final 200? metres.
The thing is that full fibre is proven. Any "prudent" developer of a broadband network would use this. It is proven in its current capacity that was being offered in Australia, and capable of being upgraded to many times that speed with technologies that already exist around the world. Why are we hanging out for a system and technology based on a an ancient and undermaintained but existing technology we have that MAY give us barely better speeds than ADSL2+?
There seems to be some sort of attachment to what we have and that somehow, if we continue to use it, it has to be cheaper, and who really needs anything! If it ends up costing up more for something little better (if at all) than what we had, we justify it by "not being wasteful".
It is like the old lady why swallowed a fly � https://www.google.com.au/url
Why are we hanging out for a system and technology based on a an ancient and undermaintained but existing technology we have that MAY give us barely better speeds than ADSL2+?
Probably because the NBN and NBN Co were carefully and deliberately re-designed to fail.
1. In an attempt to make it quicker to sell/liquidate/split up/divest assets.
2. To have another potential reason to discredit or dispense of Turnbull.
3. In an attempt to slow down the rate of digital change in Australia, to attempt to give local businesses and powerful overseas businesses operating in Australia (like News Corp) a better chance to adapt to and better survive the digital change.
4. To undermine the concept of GBE's and the "diss" the ability of Government organisations to deliver infrastructure, essential and other services. In an attempt to try and decrease the Australian voters (and other) resistance to more privatisation/outsourcing of Government Assets and Services.
With 3 and 4 likely the main reason (in my opinion).
With 2, probably the reason why the Federal Coalition was prepared to go ahead with Turnbull's plan, and risk the whole parties reputation. Knowing that if worst came to worst, they could try and deflect the blame onto Turnbull.
With 1, nice in theory, but a bit of an unknown, and depending on winning the Federal 2016 election, having a friendly enough Senate, and Telstra or News Corp actually allowing this to happen, as opposed to forcing the Government of the day to spend up to $100B or more on upgrading Australia's fixed broadband and digital communications infrastructure at the taxpayers risk and expense., before they regain more control of it (again in the case of Telstra) at some point in the future.
We have to stop thinking that we just need to do something to fix something else that just keeps repeating. We need to get to the root cause (in this case the ageing undermaintained network) and replace it, otherwise we will just keep doing one thing to fix another that causes a new problem that then requires another fix that causes a new problem...........
This is politics we are talking about. It's not what's good for the country long term, but what is good for the party short term.
Unfortunately people who want power don't govern for the whole, just the influential few ( Large Corporations, Media, Self-Interest manipulators ).
Labor made mistakes when implementing a 21st century communications system. Such as 121 POI's, cut the 1 from the end and it would be fine. Not doing a proper CBA ( even though you can manipulate the figures to give a certain outcome which is favourable), I know, I work for a Tax and Accounting firm, we use creative accounting all the time. Sen Conroy made arrogant claims that should have not been said. Such as issues with contractors and sub-contractors that he and NBN Co should have dealt with immediately. There are others that have all ready been described previously here and elsewhere.
What Labor and NBN Co were doing was something that would be beneficial for the individual, society and the economy for the long term future of this country. History has the best judgement on what is good, bad, ugly or indifferent. If the LNP win, we don't need foresight, communications in Australia will lose. New Zealand won't just brag about Rugby, milk and sheep. They can say we are a country ready for the future, while we are going to look at our own country and scream WHY!
Such as 121 POI's, cut the 1 from the end and it would be fine.
Wasn't that part of the negotiations with Telstra for access to the pits and ducts that were given to them?
The thing is that it is the underlying network that is being played with. We should not be spending the $100+ million on rectifying the copper network we are paying to access.
The underlying network needs to be FTTP. We should not be spending anything on perpetuating a copper network.
Labor made mistakes when implementing a 21st century communications system. Such as 121 POI'
They didn't do that.. the ACCC forced it on them ..
They didn't do that.. the ACCC forced it on them ..
Correct. But I still think it was a wrong decision to go ahead with. Even though the ACCC is supposed to be an independent adjudicator. It did get some, how you say, assistance from Telstra, Optus and Australian Private Networks.
Correct. But I still think it was a wrong decision to go ahead with. Even though the ACCC is supposed to be an independent adjudicator. It did get some, how you say, assistance from Telstra, Optus and Australian Private Networks.
can you imagine the media stories if the ALP had decided to ignore the ACCC and reduce the number?
Add to that the Liberal's screaming
"Labor is anti business and ignores the 'independent umpire'"
As it would directly impact businesses it would be have been even more intense than the rest of the oppositon to the FTTP NBN
I think Labor, even though they didn't like the 121 POIs agreed to go down that path to try and gain the support of some of the smaller groups in the Parliament at the time.
It was the same with the bit of Legislation enabling the sale of NBN Co Limited.
Note it was not to sell the infrastructure but the company.
Whereas the Liberals seem to have divided nbn� into competing silos ready for splitting up
can you imagine the media stories if the ALP had decided to ignore the ACCC and reduce the number
The media coverage was blatantly partisan to start with so the alp should have just overridden the accc and ignored the press.
We have to stop thinking that we just need to do something to fix something else that just keeps repeating. We need to get to the root cause (in this case the ageing undermaintained network) and replace it, otherwise we will just keep doing one thing to fix another that causes a new problem that then requires another fix that causes a new problem..........
Well said ...do it once, do it right...do full FTTP...very prudent!! Anything else including FTTdp effectively tries to be a political solution and in a way justifies the FTTN alternative thinking process...
Labor made mistakes when implementing a 21st century communications system.
The largest infrastructure project ever undertaken in this country.....not done before....... shouldn't we expect 'mistakes'?
Other similar projects in USA etc have demonstrated they have learned as they progress, improving processes, work flows etc and bringing cost down ....
It is easy to be harsh and demand perfection from day one but I can't recall any project that has gone like that and in fact if there were no problems and all went according to plan then the project has failed IMO because it has not built in the opportunity for learning and improvement. We tell and teach our kids to try something new , not to be afraid of failure...as long as they learn from it. We all learnt to ride a bike....after a few falls eh?
Politics is a tough rugged game without rules...We have seen it at its worst with NBN commentary....
can you imagine the media stories if the ALP had decided to ignore the ACCC and reduce the number?
Add to that the Liberal's screaming
The NBNCo was on thin ice wrt the GBE competitive neutrality guidelines anyway. Can you imagine the legal fight if they'd decided to provide free backhaul? It could have killed the project (imo). I don't think Conroy had much choice.
The media coverage was blatantly partisan to start with so the alp should have just overridden the accc and ignored the press
Exactly. They gained nothing by compromise. The same with ABC partisanship for the LNP; it hasn't stopped funding cuts or another LNP hack being appointed. Labor should, if given the opportunity, correct the mistakes of NBN and get rid of 121 points, the provision for company sale, bite the bullet and plan for 100% fibre in the long term, pass legislation that requires bodies corporate to allow access for hardware installation, shut Telstra out of the picture, pass legislation that compels media to report fully and honestly and agenda free and a watchdog with teeth to ensure it, provision for 1Gb speeds and affordable quotas or no quotas a d deal with the whole CVC problem.
A fine list of things that would make this a better and fairer country, and we know that none of this will be done, which shows just how corrupt the system is.
The media coverage was blatantly partisan to start with so the alp should have just overridden the accc and ignored the press.
The media certainly has a clear bias, but reporters are also very lazy. They do not bother to develop stories. They just use copy provided to them by whatever side they lean towards.
This is the main reason they do not like new media. It's too free.
Election 2016: Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
She's keen to talk about what she reckons could be the sleeper issue of the election campaign, certainly one that she says is gaining traction in her own seat.
Frustration, she says, is mounting about the slowing of internet speeds as the telecommunications network gets overloaded as households' consumption of data rises dramatically. Dubbed the "Netflix effect", the amount of data sucked through the copper-based cable network, much of it driven by streaming services such as Netflix and Stan, has doubled in the past year or so, and continues to rise at record rates.
read more
Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
The ALP need to highlight how Turnbull failed us...
The ALP need to highlight how Turnbull failed us...
Yes, they should become really aggressive on the subject and never miss an opportunity to hammer about it when interviewed or making a speech. It's a money for jam subject for Labor and they should make more use of it.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Yes, they should become really aggressive on the subject and never miss an opportunity to hammer about it when interviewed or making a speech. It's a money for jam subject for Labor and they should make more use of it.
For it to be effective (win votes), they need to not only attack the Coalition's record, but promote their own alternative. It is the latter that is missing at the moment. Hopefully they release their policy very soon.
For it to be effective (win votes), they need to not only attack the Coalition's record, but promote their own alternative.
The ALP have to put forward their plan and be confident about it and not go to water at the slightest criticism.
Unfortunately, this is how politics has turned. As soon as someone challenges a policy, the policy gets changed.
In part, this is because of the negativity and lack of journalism in the media.
The ALP have to put forward their plan and be confident about it and not go to water at the slightest criticism.
I think they'll be quite non-commital except they will come out strongly against FTTN.
They can reasonably say they don't know what options they have with HFC until they know what the NBNCo has done. Similarly with FTTdp where they need to see the results of the NBNCo's investigation and trial. I think they'll just keep saying "more fibre" until then.
There's also the mater of the NBNCo's financial position, which could be pretty dire.
I think they'll be quite non-commital except they will come out strongly against FTTN.
I have no doubt that will be the case, but they will be in for a bit of a shock when they discover just how many areas are already in well advanced stages for FTTN.
Election 2016: Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
It's only a sleeper issue because the MSM has blatantly ignored Turnbull's destruction of the NBN!
Had they been doing their job and exposing Turnbull's corrupt handling of the NBN it wouldn't be a sleeper issue at all.
I cant believe people here have not woken up to the fact that most 1st world countries are able to download five movies at once in like 5 minutes.
And they have unlimited. *Unlimited* for like $50 AUD!!
And they have unlimited. *Unlimited* for like $50 AUD!!
If only they were first world countries like Australia, imagine what they could do over copper!
For it to be effective (win votes), they need to not only attack the Coalition's record, but promote their own alternative. It is the latter that is missing at the moment. Hopefully they release their policy very soon.
One might expect the comparative performance of FTTP and FTTN through these storms. Copper failure due to getting wet. Copper failure due to power requirement for nodes...etc etc...
One might expect the comparative performance of FTTP and FTTN through these storms. Copper failure due to getting wet. Copper failure due to power requirement for nodes...etc etc...
I am still on regular pots and ADSL in a FTTN area.
phone line was all static yesterday, it is now no static, but dead.
Telstra have checked it to the pillar, all ok they say, and have now referred it to nbn� to fix the pillar to premises fault, this is the lovely copper that nbn�was gifted by Telstra.
If I was on VDSL the line would still be dead
At least as it is a voice service Telstra have arranged an nbn� tech to work in it tomorrow morning.
Not sure how I would have gone if it was a pure nbn� VDSL with VOIP as most providers are not offering the CSG on voice anymore
Assume NBN should still have a decent role to play this campaign. Maybe Labor saving it up for a last week blast?
i just wonder what the comparison of Gosford (FTP) to The entrance (FTTN) was like. wsa there much going on on the new thread in terms of performance over the storms?
Election 2016: Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
She's keen to talk about what she reckons could be the sleeper issue of the election campaign, certainly one that she says is gaining traction in her own seat.
Frustration, she says, is mounting about the slowing of internet speeds as the telecommunications network gets overloaded as households' consumption of data rises dramatically. Dubbed the "Netflix effect", the amount of data sucked through the copper-based cable network, much of it driven by streaming services such as Netflix and Stan, has doubled in the past year or so, and continues to rise at record rates.
Doesn't surprise me, even my wife a computer dummy was able to get netflix working herself through the samsung smart TV. Install the app, put int username / password and she is streaming. I just made sure an ethernet cable was plugged into the TV and router.
Imagine if she went installing netflix on up to 3 devices, her ipad and macbook. Up to 25mbps by 2016 LOL. LNP just don't get it.
And they never will. Shame. Shame. Shame.
And they never will. Shame. Shame. Shame.
They have had 16 policies in 20 years and none have fixed the issues we now face.
Infrastructure competition doesn't work.
Private companies don't want to build a nation wide network.
We are now falling even further behind.
I wonder when they will get it � I'm thinking when we are #100+ in the world and the copper network is so degraded they can no longer use it.
Infrastructure competition doesn't work.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
End user affordability is more important than technology choice.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
Can every user in the U.S get those speeds?
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
What gigabit speeds are on offer in Australia Kingy? Won't be any on your nbn FTTN MTM mess/farce � ever!!!
Only viable Tech for that is FTTP
Can every user in the U.S get those speeds?
How many in Australia have ordered an NBN 1 Gbps service?
How many in Australia have ordered an NBN 1 Gbps service?
How many in Australia can get 1gbs � FTTN can't offer those speeds.
What gigabit speeds are on offer in Australia Kingy?
The majority of connections on the NBN are FTTP. You should already know that erfman.
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
In what sense KF?
The amount nbn spends or the amount it charges end users?
FTTP would mean it pays itself off and the revenue is larger.
As for charging the end user less � I'm all for charging people less, although that wouldn't be "maximising profits".
Charge end users enough to pay it off and make it truly unlimited � I like the sounds of that.
What are the LNP doing to make it cheaper for end users?
And they have unlimited. *Unlimited* for like $50 AUD!!
I have a cousin in the US and she buys speed. She can then up/download as much as she can during the month at that speed. When I told her that we buy both speed and allowance, she was like the orangutan that was shown the trick where an object was put in a cup and closed. Then a switch was made and the cup opened.
Come to think of it, that is exactly what the pollies do to us and rather than kick them out, we ROFL!
In what sense KF?
It costs at least $150 a month to order a 1 Gbps service. Now, an inner city politician like Plibersek can talk about streaming Netflix to multiple devices all she wants but it is a fact that, since 2013, her party has never said anything about NBN's pricing structure.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
Because of lower running and maintenance costs of using FTTP
t costs at least $150 a month to order a 1 Gbps service
Whos in charge KF? Lnp or Alp
Because of lower running and maintenance costs of using FTTP
It is up to the Labor party to talk up the economic benefits of FTTP. No one is stopping them from doing this.
If it's going to cost a little more to increase the fibre footprint then why not release the policy now? If Labor argues its case effectively then there's more than enough time to convince voters that FTTP is economically superior.
It is up to the Labor party to talk up the economic benefits of FTTP.
Its up to LNP to talk up the economic benefits of FTTN
Aren't we going to decide that
Yes, but whos in charge of NBN NOW? Why aren't they doing anything to lower consumer cost?
Yes, but whos in charge of NBN NOW? Why aren't they doing anything to lower consumer cost?
Exactly. Wasn't it meant to be CHEAPER under the Coalition's policy!
Only viable Tech for that is FTTP
I'm waiting for the moment some one comes in here and says Wireless is the future and that's all we need and that FTTP is nothing but a waste and will be outdated when it's doing rolling out. I've seen enough of the Wireless Vs FTTP discussion on twitter and it doesn't always end up good.
How many in Australia can get 1gbs
He's already answered it but I'll go ahead and say
NBN = 0 (Results unknown and who even knows if there's business RSP's already offering 1gbps in secret over the NBN or something as long as you have FTTP) But maybe, just maybe, my Crystal ball tells me that if Labor was still the Current Government we would of likely seen 1gpbs speeds in Australia ages ago, but alas I'm in this universe were the Libs won the election and as such 1gbps over the NBN in Australia Is no where to be seen and who knows if 1gbps will ever be a thing for the next few years. Yes I'm aware that NBN started offering 1 gbps speeds a while ago to RSP's but what's the point of RSP's offering it if the Majority of people are now on FTTN and won't ever be able to get speeds of 1 gigabits on FTTN.
Non NBN (Aka the private Fibre connections that a lot of rich company's in this country pay for) Likely heaps, can't give a number as I don't not know the amount myself but if they have all of the money in the world then why wouldn't they go for 1 gbps for the sake of things?
What are the LNP doing to make it cheaper for end users?
Nothing, all they are interested in doing is pushing the costs of things up and making sure Australia has one heck of an outdated Telecommunications network for future generations to use and put up with.
Wasn't it meant to be CHEAPER under the Coalition's policy!
Cheaper, Faster , Sooner, More Affordable..
lol
Yes, but whos in charge of NBN NOW?
NBN Co have already lowered CVC charges. Obviously it isn't enough. But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
Why does something such as the NBN need an roi?
Why can't we invest the money for the good of society � tv and radio being 1 example.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Thats ironic KF
Why does something such as the NBN need an roi?
Ok, fair enough. Labor should put that proposition to the people and let Australia decide.
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
but wasn't Malcolm supposed to be doing that?
are you now saying he wasn't?
Labor should put that proposition to the people and let Australia decide
So why not ask the same of LNP?
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
Wow, so even you agree that the Lib's have screwed this one up and it needs to be fixed.
Thanks to the MTM failure, we already have some of the most expensive internet in the world. MTM means that the bandwidth is artificially limited, and we're paying out the nose for CVC charges.
Its more expensive to get bandwidth from your home to your local poi, then it is to the US.
So why not ask the same of LNP?
Yes, we're all very interested in what the Libs are going to do to fix their mess. I have a feeling politics will be interesting soon. The Murdoch media cant fight too hard against the nation on bandwidth without painting itself into irrelevance. People are asking, why does my netflix keep bufferring? Wasnt Turnbull meant to have fixed this by now? Why cant NBN even tell me when they are going to fix it?
Even worse � why is my new NBN connection slower than my ADSL at peak times? I dont care about speed at 2am, I care about it when I want to use it...
This is what needs to be addressed...
End user affordability is more important than technology choice.
So does that mean that you will be publicly supporting a switch from MTM back to FTTP?
But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
That's because the MTM is incapable of providing any return on investment, so why do you support it?
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
Correct � the NBN project will only be restarted if Turnbull and co are voted out of office.
Correct � the NBN project will only be restarted if Turnbull and co are voted out of office
And will be twice as expensive to do now thanks to Turnbull and his copper idiocy.
The majority of connections on the NBN are FTTP. You should already know that erfman.
In fact my post said the only ones possible are on FTTP -
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
When they get in, and that appears to be your assumption (correct at that), immediately upgrading to 1GB would be smart move as would dumping FTTN for FTTP. Great revenue earner then, and likely cheap prices for 1Gb plans no doubt due to availability, economies of scale and popularity with consumers.
Simply not possible with FTTN and a waste of time with HFC to upgrade.
I note you have not responded to my posts re the FTTN failures in SAMs like 6CAN and others all experiencing common disasters. Read this � whrl.pl/ReDyem
Tell me how they will get 1Gb/s when they struggle to get comparable to existing ADSL... if anything at all... and make nbn MTM affordable
That's because the MTM is incapable of providing any return on investment, so why do you support it?
All Labor's "big white elephant, don't need those speeds" fault.
I'm not sure why those who support the MTM do � but then have the audacity to question the ALP.
The same party who have not been in power for 3 years.
It is up to the Labor party to talk up the economic benefits of FTTP
Well according to LNP Economic Plan info on their website the LNP isn't!! and they are the government.....
Most of the info in that plan is attacking Labor not supporting their MTM...WHY?? Is it that bad??? little or nothing positive to say about MTM??
And will be twice as expensive to do now thanks to Turnbull and his copper idiocy.
Indeed.
That money could of used towards what was it.
Fibre optic cabling as so forth.
Nope instead buys crappy CAN..
:0<
Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
Your mate Turnbull has done that and delivered a dogs breakfast that can't fund itself.....
I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budge
Why the hell would anyone want to do that and miss the opportunity to build nationwide infrastructure at really cheap interest rates.
or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM.
Who wants to fix MTM??? it is a dud...back to full FTTP is only way NBN can get back to paying for itself � self evident for open minded punters KIngy.
Once again � It's all Labor's fault.
That is all the LNP have.
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Quite an admission eh?...that MTM is dead in the water.... and from KIngy himself....
Quite an admission eh?...that MTM is dead in the water.... and from KIngy himself....
Can't help feeling suspicious about this really.
.dbl post oops.
So who you gonna vote for KF?
Are you agreeing that the MTM is in fact a mess?
Really?
NBN Co have already lowered CVC charges. Obviously it isn't enough. But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
Why can't the ROI be lower and the payback period be 50 years? Why does it need to be 4?
It's a big issue and will only get larger � thanks to the MTM.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
Hi Kingee? have you been on holidays?
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
Actually now you're back.
If Labor argues its case effectively then there's more than enough time to convince voters that FTTP is economically superior.
Do you really believe there is a single voter out there that believes otherwise?
I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
I truly detect that the scales are starting to fall from someone's eyes.
Yes, KF just look around the world and we have been royally dudded.
From before Telstra gimped ADSL to protect ISDN revenues, this country has been held back by self-serving policies promoted by ALL flavours of Govt.
Australia could be one of the most advantaged countries in the world by using A grade Internet connectivity and overcoming the tyranny of distance which results from being at the 'arse end of the world'.
But no, we have paid top dollar for an absolute lemon.
And I'm sorry, but that choice was 100% LNP.
I am no fan of the other mob (Conroy, Krudd etc.) but buying back the copper and instigating the ABF (anything but fibre) policy was cutting off all our noses, kicking us in the nuts and handing a blank cheque to Telstra in one fell swoop.
Business grade, reliable, bi-directional, scalable Internet will rely on FTTP.
KF as you might have seen, the US (and many parts of Europe) have far cheaper, faster connections. Australia is still not going to have unlimited 1000/1000 connections for $50 a month (I'm looking at you Hong Kong) due to submarine cable limitations. But we could get close.
The first step to avoiding having the most expensive internet in the world is to dump this MTM farce and get back to FTTP, it's not about politics.
Can't help feeling suspicious about this really.
Standard fare.... got no ideas of their own and seek good advice on matters NBN... or how to stop good things happening with NBN
I despair at the lack of understanding amongst politicians about the potential of a real NBN.
I just watched a few minutes of Q&A tonight, when they were talking about the NBN. The audience and panel members seem to think that megabits per second, megabytes, and "gigs" are all interchangeable terms. (sigh)
Following the NBN discussion, someone asked a panel member (I think it was Joel Fitzgibbon � and maybe gibbon Fitzjoel, but we won't go there) if the Labor Party had a concrete plan to benefit remote people with mental health issues.
He pfaffed on about something � I think it was "blah blah blah.." or something similar.
The correct answer should have been "Yes, we have the NBN policy � this will benefit everyone, remote or not, with or without any specific mental health issues"
!
Correct � the NBN project will only be restarted if Turnbull and co are voted out of office.
That was correct; made patently clear on tonights Qand A � NBN was mentioned a dozen times, obviously the ABC ban on NBN has been lifted.
The majority of connections on the NBN are FTTP.
Thats got to be awkward for the Libs after nearly 3 years doesnt it Kingforce? The vast majority of connections on the NBN are thanks to Labors policy. Must be time to give Labor credit for providing the Libs with some sort of progress hey Kingforce? It would be sad stories if we had to wait foe a connection under this government.
Now, an inner city politician like Plibersek can talk about streaming Netflix to multiple devices
That was Christopher Pyyyyyyne. That was the only use he could quote for the NBN when he was on Q & A 2 weeks ago. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4445605.htm
TONY JONES: What speed do they need?
CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the speed that they will have, you�ll be able to watch five full-length movies in the same household if you all want to at the same time.
Pretty poor for the Minister for Industry, Innovation and Science, wouldn't you agree Kingforce?
Thankfully Albo sees the bigger picture
ANTHONY ALBANESE: The NBN isn't about movies. It's about our economy and how it functions.
If Labor argues its case effectively then there's more than enough time to convince voters that FTTP is economically superior.
Voters dont need convicning. Q and A tonight was more than enough evidence of that. There is massive support in the community for FTTP. The best thing that has happened to promote support for FTTP is Turnbulls MTM. People are seeing first hand what a farce it is and the cry fot FTTP is getting louder every day. Give yourself an education by watching the latest Q and A and see how much of a goose Barnaby looks as essentially the only anti-FTTP person in the room. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4452793.htm
People want FTTP. Turnbulls ego is the main thing stopping them getting it.
Whos in charge KF? Lnp or Alp
Kingforce is still struggling with that. He has spent the last 2 and half years under the delusion that Labor is still in charge, and that we can ignore, and not question what the Libs are doing, and just desperately point the finger at Labor. Thankfully, the chance for change is coming and Kingforce might well get his wish that Labor is back in charge again and that the Libs slip further into irrelevancy.
NBN Co have already lowered CVC charges. Obviously it isn't enough. But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
You need to ask the Libs why this problem exists. The MTM is supposed to be cheaper, and thus require a much lower ROI. How the MTM is going to pay for itself, or where is its viable business plan arent questions for the Labor policy thread. You need to ask those hard questions of the Libs in the Libs thread. /forum-replies.cfm?t=2532106&p=93
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM.
Labor arent in power. The Libs are.
Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world. Thanks Malcolm!
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Thats ironic KF
Pretty standard unfortunately. Conroy had to fix the mess that over a decade of failed Libs comms policies caused. Just as his good work was gaining traction, the Libs got in and screwed it up again. Best thing that could happen is for Labor to get back in again and fix it before its too late. Another term of this government will see irreversible damage done.
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
So you will be voting Labor then? Thats got to hurt!!!!
Wow, so even you agree that the Lib's have screwed this one up and it needs to be fixed.
He wont ask the hard questions of the Libs while they are in power though, when they could actually do something about fixing their own mess. He wants it to be Labor to the rescue again. Ironic indeed!
Thanks to the MTM failure, we already have some of the most expensive internet in the world. MTM means that the bandwidth is artificially limited, and we're paying out the nose for CVC charges.
Yep. And if the government doesnt change here is no end in sight.
People want FTTP. Turnbulls ego is the main thing stopping them getting it
People don't know what they want. They really just don't know!
It's up to us to enlighten them. We are the techos, tell your friends that the country needs fibre for reasons you understand.
You will have some friends that have sucked in some rubbish and offer "flat earth". You can but try, the country needs you to be a salesman. Unfortunately most of us are not.
Please try. If we don't get proper comms then we are doomed for a generation.
Q and A tonight was more than enough evidence of that. There is massive support in the community for FTTP.
They were very specific, FTTP. I doubt they are Whirlpoolians as well. The applause whenever FTTP was mentioned (except for Barnaby's stuttering around the subject) was clear as day to see. Rural regional Australia can see the importance and Tony Windsor is making it one of his primary reasons for making a comeback.
FTTP is the right infrastructure to bridge the gap for rural regional locations in areas of health, education and business today and into the future.
People don't know what they want. They really just don't know!
You would be surprised! I live in an area that was supposed to get full FTTP, but is now basically getting half FTTP and half FTTN. The amount of times people ask if they are getting the good fibre NBN or the copper one, is amazing. If you watch shows like Q and A tonight and listen to the crowds support any time FTTP was mentioned, you can see that they get it. After the last election people were surveyed and over 70% of them still supported Labors FTTP NBN. They get it. We just need to make sure we get a government in that gets it. This government sure doesnt!
They were very specific, FTTP.
Yep. they knew what they wanted. And they knew the right questiosn to ask. It was good for example to see someone point out to Barnaby (and the LNP) that the NBN is not about today, its about providing for the future. Telling us how many movies we can watch at once now is irrelevant. People are more interested in having infrastructure built now that will cater for the future. That is why they want to go back to FTTP.
FTTP is the right infrastructure to bridge the gap for rural regional locations in areas of health, education and business today and into the future.
Its the only sensible option in the regions. Do it once, do it right, and it will serve the regions well for decades, and allow them to be competitive with their city cousins.
They get it.
Not where I live. An affluent suburb of apparent idiots. All of whom are richer than me.
Is there a correlation?
Not where I live. An affluent suburb of apparent idiots. All of whom are richer than me.
Is there a correlation?
There is a scientific correlation between being right winger and being of a lower IQ ;)
http://www.theglobeandmail
Labor are pushing to make the NBN an election issue. Albo, Plibersek, Clare, Shorten, et al are all mentioning it at every chance. It is gaining traction as we saw in Q and A tonight.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM
Or, they could ditch MTM and switch back to an all fibre rollout, then:
-we won't need to put NBN on budget
-we won't need to raise taxes to fund it
-we won't be stuck with the most expensive (and slowest) internet in the world.
Voters dont need convicning. Q and A tonight was more than enough evidence of that. There is massive support in the community for FTTP.
Hilariously tonights Q&A was a regional edition � in Tamworth...
Labor and Liberal's policy on regional areas (excluding major towns) is identical � Satellite and Fixed Wireless.
The one question they actually took about this was someone complaining about the Interim Satellite not being quick enough to load Gmail --- exactly that Interim (and somewhat surprising to be honest) � SkyMuster will be much better providing a 25/5 service with caps (albeit still not city services � then again how is that sewer line going?)
That said from the crowd response � it appears Labor has the hearts and minds on this issue.
Labor and Liberal's policy on regional areas (excluding major towns) is identical � Satellite and Fixed Wireless.
I thought that under the Quigley era NBN, all towns of 1000 or more population (and several with less population) would get FTTP?
PS, 1000 population was mentioned here http://ministers.treasury.gov
I think that was wound substantially back for the 93/7% plan that was mentioned in 2012/3 or so
all towns of 1000 or more population
It was towns of more than 1000 premises, and if the town was on a fibre link this number was reduced to 500 premises.
I think that was wound substantially back for the 93/7% plan that was mentioned in 2012/3 or so
While Quigley was running NBNCo, 93 plus percent FTTP (including all towns of at least 1000 population) was the plan, unless you can find some documents that say otherwise.
Labor and Liberal's policy on regional areas (excluding major towns) is identical � Satellite and Fixed Wireless.
Not true � any town with more than a certain number of premises (1000 from memory) was to get FTTP, with the subsequent addition that towns with half that number of premises that were on a fibre backhaul route would also get FTTP.
Edit: I see I have been comprehensively beaten to that point :-)
The nbn is an election issue after all � who knew :)
Didnt realise the q and a was about this, is there a link to watch the full episode?
Didnt realise the q and a was about this, is there a link to watch the full episode?
ABC Iview � I enjoyed it as people were questioning what the LNP were doing.
FTTP � do it once, do it right!
ABC Iview � I enjoyed it as people were questioning what the LNP were doing.
FTTP � do it once, do it right!
Sorry but your delivery just doesn't match that of Tony Windsor on Q & A
"Do it once; Do it right; Do it with fibre;" � With a standing ovation from the audience.
Best thing I have seen or heard in this election campaign so far.
While Quigley was running NBNCo, 93 plus percent FTTP (including all towns of at least 1000 population) was the plan, unless you can find some documents that say otherwise.
Whilst the government objective mentions population, as you say, the 2010 corporate plan says this in section 5.5.1 ...
The proposed FTTP footprint is shown in Exhibit 5.3. It should be noted that this footprint actually extends to 92.3% of premises as of June 2010 but covers 93% of premises at the end of the roll-out. The FTTP footprint has been determined as follows:
i. All communities with greater than 1,000 premises (determined by G-NAF data) were mapped, and then remote communities (i.e. those requiring extensive transit backhaul) were backed out, to provide the minimum FTTP coverage of 90%;
ii. Transit backhaul routes required to service this FTTP footprint and 8 satellite earth stations were then plotted, and any communities with greater than 1,000 premises excluded under i. along these routes were added back in, resulting in 90.8% FTTP coverage;
iii. All additional communities with over 1,000 premises were then added back in, together with the additional transit backhaul needed to serve these communities, resulting in 91.4% FTTP coverage; and
iv. All communities with greater than 500 premises that are passed by the transit backhaul routes resulting from i-iii were added in, resulting in 92.3% FTTP coverage.
That's where it changed from population to premises.
I just watched a few minutes of Q&A tonight, when they were talking about the NBN. The audience and panel members seem to think that megabits per second, megabytes, and "gigs" are all interchangeable terms. (sigh)
And that is what Turnbull and LNP are playing at with NBN � exploiting ignorance and making ridiculous statements and lies to be taken as truth.
Joyce gave full indication as to how they are selling NBN.
Quote � " not one 1Gb/s service sold by NBN Co and majority sold are 25Mb/s...that's all the public want...". (What a coincidence yesterday Kingy was raising the 1Gb/s issue yesterday eh?) I found it sad no-one challenged Joyce though no doubt Tony Jones would have shut it down � details/facts don't count.
Fact is if 25Mb/s is all nbn FTTN /MTM can deliver then what else can consumer choose � the 100/40 product they charge more for is delivering around 25-30Mb/s at best in normal hours if they are lucky. Only FTTP can deliver 1GB/s.
It is a simple message but no-one in media especially it seems are able to grasp that pollies struggle as well
Whilst the government objective mentions population, as you say, the 2010 corporate plan says this in section 5.5.1 ...
Thanks...
FTTP is the right infrastructure to bridge the gap for rural regional locations in areas of health, education and business today and into the future.
The people at Q&A were certainly vocal and specific � FTTP is what they want.....now!!
It was also the Farmers Federation and the Small Business rep pushing for FTTP. Won't surprise if Windsor gets in. ALP might as well, if preferences flow their way and they get a few more votes than Windsor. Either will do as far as FTTP is concerned.
I think that was wound substantially back for the 93/7% plan that was mentioned in 2012/3 or so
NO! The 1000 rule was included in the 93/7% Plan. The rule went down to 500 under Labor's NBN V1 and they were eying off 94/6% with close proximity to Backhaul Fibre essential.
The nbn is an election issue after all � who knew :)
Quite correct. The SBS article really highlights the LNP don't want issues discussed. Turnbull (presidential style) is the focus � look at the backdrops for announcements not a mention of LNP just Turnbull. The most trivial things are reported and like the CFA Victoria issue, not federal policy issues. Look at Abbott style "Our (not LNP...) Economic Plan" which is as vague as a drunk at 3am Saturday night, it contains next to nothing re LNP NBN Plan just attacks Labor. All they have really offered up is the $50B Company Tax cuts and $50B subs......and quietly bits and pieces in marginal seats ($1.6B ABC says) which aren't getting reported.
Anything but policy is sought and blown out of proportion to obfuscate what people want to know...what are they going to do for us. Do they actually have a Plan???? IMO they want everyone to get so pissed off and bored, don't want them to be able to think about which way they want to vote and in frustration just stay where they went last time with their protest vote.
The NBN issue can be the game changer as it impacts on all portfolios and the delivery of Govt services. FTTP is the only tech that can deliver that. Labor has a great opportunity (to continue?) to drive the agenda and a focus on NBN would demonstrate a clear differentiation across the board.
The NBN issue can be the game changer
Yes, and I think that FTTP [Labor must call it fibre, not NBN because the LNP will say nbn, which sounds the same] could become the hot topic in the election if they play it right. It's a golden opportunity that the LNP have handed to Labor on a platter.
Labor should instruct their people to bone up on a proper understanding of the subject so they can nail the LNP reps at every opportunity, and they should be putting out pressers every second day.
They must also be ready to get serious about FTTP if they win the election. If they talk big now and do stuff all during their term they risk being a one term government.
This means doing more than just 93% fibre; it means getting rid of 121 POI and contention issues, any up front charges, using middlemen contractors who bleed the money dry, and fast track brownfield connections to raise the revenue faster.
couldnt help myself after watching that bumbling idiot Joyce. I had to make this. Share it around if you want, we cannot let the Liberals lead this country on July 2nd
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Labor should instruct their people to bone up on a proper understanding of the subject so they can nail the LNP reps at every opportunity, and they should be putting out pressers every second day.
They certainly should do this and organise public meetings where this is explained to voters.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
it means getting rid of 121 POI ...
How do you suggest they do this? I think it's impossible without a huge legal fight.
... and contention issues, ...
That would require them to either get rid of the CVC charge or reduce the price significantly. That reduces revenue which reduces the IRR. That will require the government to write off most if not all of their equity investment to date or accept the low IRR and bring the NBN on budget. That is going to start a political spitstorm.
fwiw ... I think whichever party wins the election is going to have to face this unpalatable reality after the election. I think they should bite the bullet and do it to keep prices down. It will be really tough though.
How do you suggest they do this? I think it's impossible without a huge legal fight.
My question would be can they keep the 121 POI, but allow for a separate service for transit to 12 POI's (per original). Allows for companies to retain existing investments, while still allowing for new entrants.
My question would be can they keep the 121 POI, but allow for a separate service for transit to 12 POI's (per original).
The 14 POI proposal allowed for RSP connection at the POIs and at the CSAs (conditions applied) at the same price. The transit from the POI to the CSA was therefore effectively free. That was never going to happen without a legal battle (imo).
The competitive neutrality guidelines for GBEs require the GBE to charge prices that deliver a risk adjusted return of the 10 year bond rate plus a risk premium: 3% low risk, 5% medium risk or 7% high risk. The NBNCo is not close to any of those. Entering the transit market with a service priced to undercut competitors is certain (imo) to be challenged.
ouldnt help myself after watching that bumbling idiot Joyce
Well done but I don't get the 'Thug', smoking, sunglasses depiction of Windsor... detracts a little from the rest
but I don't get the 'Thug', smoking, sunglasses depiction of Windsor
Yes that went over my head too .... wooooosh.
detracts a little from the rest
Agreed.
The Labor FTTH plan is still available to be re-instated post-election. However, the 'upgrade ' path from FTTN is not being clarified to voters.
All they have to do to win on the election issue of NBN is keep pointing to this.. http://www.abc.net.au/news/20
Watch some YouTube thug life vines
Ta but I've found in life that if you have to explain a joke then its better to just move on ....
As my jokes are often a bit cryptic I move on a lot. :)
How do you suggest they do this?
I haven't the foggiest idea. But I did ask that very same question in one of these threads a few months ago and there was an answer given that I didn't understand [me being rather dim]. Perhaps someone else can chip in on the matter.
But I asked the question because of all the talk about how 121 POI was a strangling noose on the operation of fibre in this country, and therefore it seems to me that we would be well rid of it.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But I asked the question because of all the talk about how 121 POI was a strangling noose on the operation of fibre in this country, and therefore it seems to me that we would be well rid of it.
Yeah, and I agree. It's just one of those things I think Conroy and the ACCC couldn't do anything about. The NBNCo would have been picking a fight with some of their biggest customers. More to the point, picking a fight with Optus and Telstra at the time they were trying to negotiate deals. Just not doable imo.
Sorry to pick on your post. I just want someone to tell me how they think Conroy could have done any different.
As I said, I don't know what I'm talking about, but I wonder if an Enabling Legislation would do the trick; one that overrides the authority of the ACCC in this matter. Not so much for Conroy back then, but perhaps in the future.
I realise it would mean junking what has been spent on 121, but I've never seen the point in persevering in something stupid just because it has already been set up.
If you can't do things once and do them right, then do things twice and make sure it becomes right, is my motto.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
If you can't do things once and do them right, then do things twice and make sure it becomes right, is my motto.
Why not try 16 different policies in 20 years and still not fix anything � because "private is better".
The jealousy effect is in full swing with NBN � those of us who have it are making sure EVERYBODY knows about it, and how good it is.
Rubbing peoples nose in it? Sure.
Upsetting business councils/Liberal voting suburbs with how good FTTH is? Absolutely.
Advocating that voting for Liberal is going to get you a poor outcome? Constantly.
As long as Labor keeps pushing the "Look what FTTH enabled suburb 'x' is doing!" they will be winnin
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
As I said, I don't know what I'm talking about, but I wonder if an Enabling Legislation would do the trick; one that overrides the authority of the ACCC in this matter. Not so much for Conroy back then, but perhaps in the future.
IANAL so what I write here is just my opinion. It may be right or it may be wrong :)
If the NBNCo goes to a 14 POI set up they will be effectively offering free backhaul from the current POIs to the capital city POIs. Having a GBE enter a competitive market with a free service would be a 'courageous' move. I don't know if it's illegal or unconstitutional though. I'm sure there would be a challenge of some sort by the current backhaul providers.
An alternative would be for the NBNCo to build its own backhaul to the 121 POIs and offer services at prices that undercut the current providers. This is where the GBE competitive neutrality guidelines come in. Again, I don't know what legal recourse the current providers would have but I'm sure they wouldn't go down without a fight of some sort.
The current backhaul providers include Optus, Telstra and TPG. The NBNCo picking a fight with its three biggest RSPs would be a high risk strategy imo. It has the potential to stop the sale of NBN services whilst the dispute is settled.
As I said, that's just as I see it. I don't see how Conroy could have done anything else and I don't see how a future government (either flavour) could change it. I'm always happy to be corrected.
I don't know if it's illegal or unconstitutional though.
I doubt it would be unconstitutional. They aren't taking anything (even if they did they can "acquire property under just terms" under the constitution) and the Govt has authority over this area, as such it wouldn't be 'illegal'.
http://www.100positivepolici
Compare this document to the LNP one .... if you can find it as a document to be read...seems like you have to choose an issue � do they really want us to know what is in the 'Plan'? Bit poor for them to be representing Labor's so flippantly when you can't find theirs at all.
Labor's NBN page is light on but at least positive � one might expect a policy launch shortly as stated. LNP's NBN Policy is the same as Fifield's tweet which is 75-80% attacking Labor...since when is a policy not about what you want to do but what you view the opposition's history as ...?
HAv ethe media actually looked at these � I think not.
http://www.100positivepolic
The Federal Labor 5 word NBN vision statement.
More fibre to more Australians
And it's a Gold Star from me and a Gold Star from him.
I'd like to supplement that with it's alter ego
Less copper to less Australians
and
The less copper the better
https://cdn.australianlabor.
BUILD THE NATIONAL BROADBAND NETWORK
The most important piece of infrastructure for any 21st century economy is a first-rate fibre National Broadband Network. In 2013, Malcolm Turnbull scrapped Labor�s world class Fibre-to-the-Premises NBN. The Liberals are instead building a slower, second-rate NBN that will leave Australia behind and hamstring our economy into the future.
The NBN is signature Labor policy. It is the biggest, most important public infrastructure project in Australian history. Universal, fast, reliable and affordable broadband is the platform on which the jobs of the future will be built.
The original Labor NBN would have delivered optic fibre to 93 per cent of homes and businesses, providing speeds of up to 1 gigabit per second, a network easily scalable to much higher speeds in the future. Fast and reliable broadband creates jobs and provides real economic benefits to households and businesses.
In 2013, Deloitte Access Economics estimated that the average annual household benefit of Labor�s NBN will be about $3,800 in 2020, in 2013 dollars, with around two-thirds of this benefit ($2,400) financial and the remainder in consumer benefits, such as travel time savings and convenience of e-commerce.
Only a Shorten Labor Government will build an NBN that delivers more fibre to more Australians
Rubbing peoples nose in it? Sure
Pretty poor form when your rubbing it the noses of people in Labor safe seats who have had to suffer FTTN being rolled out in the area without any say in the matter. :(
Upsetting business councils/Liberal voting suburbs with how good FTTH is? Absolutely.
Advocating that voting for Liberal is going to get you a poor outcome? Constantly.
As long as Labor keeps pushing the "Look what FTTH enabled suburb 'x' is doing!" they will be winnin
Even though I don't have FTTH. I welcome all the gloating around it, as long as it exposes the scam we have been sold by MTM.
The more news, the better. This is our chance of getting the same technology in the next 5 years.
The more news, the better. This is our chance of getting the same technology in the next 5 years.
Last chance I'd suggest to get to FTTP and secure the future of generations to come and Labor are the only one's that are committed to it. The LNP keep saying they have a Plan (I challenge anyone to print off a copy of the LNP 'Our Economic Plan ' they wave around for media photo/TV opportunities) but most of the NBN part of that is an attack on Labor so they are squibbing on doing NBN right.
With interest rate so low this is the time for investment in such massive infrastructure. No private enterprise will build FTTP off their own bat � they have refused to for decades and even now � a missed opportunity for big profits for decades. Only with govt funding will they participate and now that Turnbull has cornered the govt in Telstra's pocket Australian taxpayers will pay handsomely.
That effectively means what Turnbull has put in place will be it unless Labor wins the election and changes tack back to FTTP.
From a consumer's point of view I see an iinet ad today for nbn 1000Gb data for $79.99. No speed mentioned but for sure 25MB/s (12 in interim 18mths) No guarantee of a minimum speed either. FTTN Whirlpool threads are reporting failure after failure....
I am fortunate to have FTTP with iinet 100/40 500Gb for $89/mth with free calls across Australia, consistent near full speeds all the time � I get what I pay for and sadly those on FTTN do not. Biggest con of all time. Thanks Malcolm.... snake oil salesman supreme....
I bet it was thought up by Baldrick
Has turnbull had a namechnge � too embarrassed with FTTN rollout.
I meant to add Turnbull had a Plan for NBN as well, ready to go and fully costed � just like "Our Economic Plan" (which it seems you can't get a copy of) and we saw how the NBN Plan was a total hoax � took 2 � years to start and doubled in cost.
I'd bet the NBN Plan was actually a plan to do a plan � we just didn't read the fine print. Every answer to LNP policy by coalition members/candidates starts with ....we have a plan.... but there is no information as to what the substance is to justify the policy. See the similarity to Turnbull's NBN Plan?
.we have a plan
Blame the ALP and hope no-one notices the inaction.
It might work.....
So early voting starts next Tuesday with most commentators expecting increased levels of early voting. I have heard estimates of a third of voters will cast their vote before Election Day. Given this, wouldn't The ALP want to get their policy out soon? I would suggest it is probably too late this week (to capture good headlines you don't want to announce a major policy on a Friday or on the weekend). I am guessing we will see it early next week, but it is just a guess.
Are we actually going to get a labour policy? Or have I missed it? Or are they planning on playing safe and not having an offical policy? Sorry if this has been mentioned already but we are over half way through the campaign already and am starting to think they leaving it a bit to late.
Are we actually going to get a labour policy? Or have I missed it? Or are they planning on playing safe and not having an offical policy?
I think they are going about it badly.
The same in the year before the lead up to the 2013 election and in the campaign for that election too. They are not playing their strengths properly, in my opinion. They should boot out their strategist and get someone with a fire in his belly to win.
I'm already having nightmares about Federal Labor pollies being quizzed on their NBN Policy after it is announced and some of them floundering around in trying to answer and explain their policy in any detail.
Maybe the delay on the NBN Policy is partly to make surf that Federal Labor pollies have been fully trained in both how to spruik it, and how to handle any curveball questions they get about it.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I think they are going about it badly.
I'll cut them some slack. It's obvious what the Coalition line is going to be as soon as Labor announce "more fibre". There will be a steaming heap of "$30bn more", "8 years longer" bull spit. And the idiots that get to vote will suck it up. Labor ... spending ... BAD! Gods save us.
I'll cut them some slack.
I hope you're right. But I remember back in 2013 waiting for Labor to zing the polemic with a well structured campaign selling the fibre NBN with all it's merits and targeting the LNP lies with exposure. But it never came.
I believe that applications for postal votes have to be in soon, and each election more people opt for postal voting so they don't have to go to the voting booth. If Labor want to win more votes I think they should get on the wagon now.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I hope you're right.
I doubt it. The Coalition wants to spend $50bn on company tax cuts that will flow mostly to overseas shareholders. Labor wants to spend that $50bn on education and health for Australians. The polls are 50:50. It doesn't make sense.
But I remember back in 2013 waiting for Labor to zing the polemic with a well structured campaign selling the fibre NBN with all it's merits and targeting the LNP lies with exposure. But it never came.
Conroy was the right man to bash the NBN into existence but (imo) he wasn't the right man to sell it to the electorate. Remember the dishwasher shopping for cheap electricity?
If Labor want to win more votes I think they should get on the wagon now.
I don't think the NBN will decide many votes. The difference between the discredited trickle-down bollocks of the Coalition versus Labor's investment in the education and training of Australia's children is too stark. If the elctorate can't make a decision on that then they're way to stupid to understand the NBN.
I think Labor should tread warily on the NBN. "More fibre" is about all they can safely offer imo.
I think Labor should tread warily on the NBN. "More fibre" is about all they can safely offer imo.
Why they don't just go:
'We have a fully costed ready to go broadband plan. For $40B every Australian will have FTTP by 2020.'
When 2020 comes and they're nowhere near finished and it's more than double the cost say they didn't know just how bad a state the NBN was in until they saw the books so it's all the LNPs fault.
If the LNP can do it don't see why they can't o.O
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I believe that applications for postal votes have to be in soon
Early voting starts June 14 and 4.5M early votes has been mentioned in media. Ironically LNP haven't ramped anything up and keep playing the small target game. Their nbn stuff in their Our Economic Plan is just rubbish � they are not serious about a national broadband network is the only conclusion anyone can make. If that is all they can say about a $56+B spend then economic credentials are pretty much non existent.
NBN can be such a differentiating issue if presented properly and timing will be critical.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I believe that applications for postal votes have to be in soon, and each election more people opt for postal voting so they don't have to go to the voting booth. If Labor want to win more votes I think they should get on the wagon now.
Yeah, I believe that the election weekend is during school holidays, so expect that to increase the number of postal votes.
The Coalition wants to spend $50bn on company tax cuts that will flow mostly to overseas shareholders.
and Corporate Tax cuts of $50B offer GDP contribution of just 0.2% (~$3B) whereas NBN V1 was to deliver 1.5% pa (~$25B) for a $43B project now $56+B.....
The polls are 50:50. It doesn't make sense.
I don't think the NBN will decide many votes.
Check the FTTN threads ...might be quite a few there. Some posts are showing a preference for FTTP and anguish with getting connected let alone frustration with speeds when using it when they do....and some saying they had better speeds with ADSL.
Might be more than you think will not vote LNP
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But I remember back in 2013 waiting for Labor to zing the polemic with a well structured campaign selling the fibre NBN with all it's merits and targeting the LNP lies with exposure. But it never came.
Yeah Labor were absolutely terrible at selling themselves and their policies, and still are to a degree.
But to the vast majority of voting public, the NBN won't get on the radar except Libs attack on labor as a huge waste of money, that's simply the facts, nothing has changed...
I don't think the NBN will decide many votes
Maybe you should have watched Q&A on Monday mate. The NBN isn't in the mainstream media as an election issue, but is obviously a sleeping giant amongst the electorate.
Maybe you should have watched Q&A on Monday mate.
I did. I still don't think it will decide many votes. Someone recently posted a link to a survey of issues the public wanted to know more about. There were 12 on the list. The NBN came 10th for the youngest group (18-34 iirc) and 11th for the two other groups. That's not to say people aren't interested in the NBN, just that there are other issues of more importance.
I agree with Mark Gregory's points in this article ...
Bill Shorten is better off keeping the details of his first-rate fibre NBN close to his chest until the election is sorted.
http://www.theaustr
The slightest hint that Labor will spend more on the NBN and the LNP will be all over it like a rash. Labor is probably better off just saying "more fibre" and attacking FTTN.
The slightest hint that Labor will spend more on the NBN and the LNP will be all over it like a rash. Labor is probably better off just saying "more fibre" and attacking FTTN.
I'm not bothered by it not being released yet. I expect this and other major policies to come in the last two weeks, given the long long campaign. I'm also expecting it will be another glossy pamphlet than a detailed policy.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét