This could be interesting.
NBN Forum
Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare, Senator Jan McLucas and ALP Candidate for Capricornia, Leisa Neaton invite you to attend a forum about the National Broadband Network.
An opportunity to seek clarification on Labor's position.
Anyone know where we can get this broken record fixed?
Javelyn,
You must not be interested in returning to a full fibre rollout then.
You must not be interested in returning to a full fibre rollout then
I am sure that everyone is, but the LNP have already introduced a "poisoned pill" to prevent that
Complete rubbish � the links have been provided to you many times in the past...
Something to do with an Ericsson study if I recall. It's a misinterpretation of the results.
Better for Labor to release policy now and bring closure to the NBN technology debate. Focus on the NBN economic debate instead.
Something to do with an Ericsson study if I recall. It's a misinterpretation of the results
So you don't recall exactly, but you know it's a misinterpretation? Kinda shows how valuable and unbiased an insight that is...
So you don't recall exactly, but you know it's a misinterpretation?
Here then:
http://www.ericsson.com/news/1550083
But I don't see how that's relevant to Labor policy. Especially since Clare never cites that study.
But I don't see how that's relevant to Labor policy. Especially since Clare never cites that study
Just because he never sites the Chalmers University study, doesn't mean it isn't relevant to their policy.
As I have said, while the ALP NBN was far superior to the MTM, that doesn't mean that Labor is better at debating...
You could and the max they get is what ? ...and what will they get when the fibre stuff gets to 10Gb/s and above....max 300 Mb/s maybe....?
G.fast and xg.fast will deliver GBps speeds to shorter copper lengths � perfect upgrade for FTTB.
More problematic are the FTTN rollouts
Just because he never sites the Chalmers University study, doesn't mean it isn't relevant to their policy.
It should be a key weapon in Clare's arguments. He should mention it at every opportunity. But he doesn't because he knows the study is incomplete and needs further work.
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis that Labor has trouble refuting.
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis that Labor has trouble refuting.
Bugger KingForce, I accidentally sprayed water on my laptop reading that comment � surely it was said in jest, right?
Bugger KingForce, I accidentally sprayed water on my laptop reading that comment � surely it was said in jest, right?
No, Labor cannot credibly argue that consumer willingness to pay will cover the costs of a full fibre NBN. The Vertigan panel listed three independent strategies to estimate consumer WTP.
Labor still remain very quiet on the long term end user affordability on the NBN. The Vertigan CBA argued that retail prices would increase much more under Labor's old NBN plans as compared to the MTM.
No, Labor cannot credibly argue that consumer willingness to pay will cover the costs of a full fibre NBN. The Vertigan panel listed three independent strategies to estimate consumer WTP.
Pure fantasy. The Vertigan panel were unable to justify their assumptions so why on earth would anyone place any stock in the document derived from those assumptions?
The Vertigan CBA argued that the MTM is the way to go, because that's what they were paid to argue.
Before talking about the Vertigan CBA you should spend a few minutes reading http://www.businessspectator.
It should be a key weapon in Clare's arguments
It would be if they figure out how to present it...
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis that Labor has trouble refuting
Not only has Labor refuted it with ease, so has everybody else. It was an expensive joke of an analysis, and not even Turnbull waited for its results.
Labor cannot credibly argue that consumer willingness to pay will
You mean the metric that was invented by Ergas and laughed at by the rest of the economists in the world?
Do you really think the Emperor is clothed, despite the evidence of your own eyes???
You have highlighted one of the worst parts of the so called CBA...using a metric designed for a consumer company and applying it towards an infrastructure is the height of idiocy.
This does go a long way to explaining why we are stuck in the mess we are in...the LNP obviously have very little understanding of economics.
It should be a key weapon in Clare's arguments
I think you should send him a note letting him know how he should run the campaign...I am sure he would be grateful.
The Vertigan panel were unable to justify their assumptions so why on earth would anyone place any stock in the document derived from those assumptions?
Sorry but Shorten cannot turn up to the leader's debate and expect to use this sort of argument. If the subject turns to the NBN, Turnbull will crush him.
You should spend a few minutes reading
And Mark Gregory has also said that Labor's old NBN would take 10 years longer to complete.
In the end, Labor doesn't really anything to gain by making the NBN an election issue. I think it should be pretty clear by now that they don't have many original ideas that would improve the MTM.
With the Coalition, there's the possibility of connecting 300,000 with FTTdp. Labor's policy on this is still unclear.
Under Turnbull, CVC pricing has been readjusted. Clare hasn't even bothered to say anything about that.
With this government, NBN Co has met key targets for six quarters in a row. With the Rudd/Gillard government, NBN Co constantly failed to meet KPIs.
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis that Labor has trouble refuting.
You mean the one that was directed to ignore business demand and benefits when it was undertaken?
The same report that estimated the median demand for bandwidth to be 15Mbps in 2023?
Not even NBN Co believe that steaming pile of analysis.
Just last week we had NBN Co's CEO coming out saying HFC is fabulous and will deliver symmetric 30Gbps soon. He was also (rather hopefully) talking up G.fast and future XG.fast developments, saying they might hit 1Gbps and 5Gbps.
The Willingness To Pay metric is completely misunderstood in my opinion, what it referred to was NBN Co's willingness to pay for a cooked up metric from the report's authors.
NBN Co must have paid a pretty tidy sum given the nature of the fairytale that was delivered. I guess it is no coincidence that CBA could also stand for Couldn't Be Arsed, as in 'Turnbull CBA do it properly'.
And Mark Gregory has also said that Labor's old NBN would take 10 years longer to complete
Firstly, that was in March 2013...prior to any of the engineering results (project Fox, the data from NZ, the data from Verizon, the rollouts of Google Fibre, etc...), so you might as well quote something from 1950.
I think it should be pretty clear by now that they don't have many original ideas that would improve the MTM
You mean like replacing FTTN with FTTdp? Halting the HFC upgrade?
I think they do...
With the Coalition, there's the possibility of connecting 300,000 with FTTdp
Have the Coalition stated a single thing about rolling out FTTdp? I certainly haven't seen it...whereas Labor have categorically said they will roll out far more fibre than the Coalition.
With this government, NBN Co has met key targets for six quarters in a row. With the Rudd/Gillard government, NBN Co constantly failed to meet KPIs
As they keep changing their KPIs, it's no wonder...move the goal posts and declare the match.
Additionally, the current government has been in commercial rollout for 2.5 years, the Labor government was only 18 months. And of course, most of the current government's success can be traced to the efforts of the previous government...
The same report that estimated the median demand for bandwidth to be 15Mbps in 2023?
That was the technical demand which was, if I recall correctly, the minimum technical capabilities needed. What consumers would purchase may be higher or lower than that. No notable commentator has suggested what a better demand projection would be.
Besides, the average download speed on FTTN is 76 Mbps
Besides, the average download speed on FTTN is 76 Mbps
That is not the average speed, that is the average PEAK speed...in other words, it can hit that speed once in a 24 hour period so far on the very few cherry-picked connections.
You mean like replacing FTTN with FTTdp?
According to one Whirlpoolian:
And Jason Clare made it very clear at a meeting with him that I recently attended � the ALP would wait until everyone else had NBN access before revisiting those of us on FTTN for a possible upgrade.
I would imagine that quite a few who get FTTN won't be upgraded until the scheduled completion date of 2020.
But then again, sensible upgrade of FTTN is part of the Coalition's long term plan anyway, so it's hard to see where the policy difference is.
But then again, sensible upgrade of FTTN is part of the Coalition's long term plan anyway, so it's hard to see where the policy difference is.
And is this such a bad thing? If we come out of this election with the exact same policy on both sides, then maybe the project can get completed without the politicans interfering.
We may not get the ideal nbn, but just perhaps we'll get a less worse one than Hackett managed to achieve.
Though I disagree with statement on sensible upgrade, there is only replacement or overbuild. A sensible bipartisan policy would not include FTTN at all.
Sorry but Shorten cannot turn up to the leader's debate and expect to use this sort of argument.
If the idiots try to claim that the Vertigan CBA is a credible document that supports their plans, then absolutely he can.
If the subject turns to the NBN, Turnbull will crush him.
How? By lying? By claiming that the MTM is actually the same as the NBN? By claiming all the FTTP connections as MTM connections?
I think it should be pretty clear by now that they don't have many original ideas that would improve the MTM.
Only if you deliberately ignore what they actually say.
With the Coalition, there's the possibility of connecting 300,000 with FTTdp.
LOL, still hanging your hat on that furphy?
With the Rudd/Gillard government, NBN Co constantly failed to meet KPIs.
Of course you can substantiate that claim with credible links, right?
sensible upgrade of FTTN is part of the Coalition's long term plan anyway
Where? Please quote it, and explain how it is to be funded.
I would imagine that quite a few who get FTTN won't be upgraded until the scheduled completion date of 2020
I imagine it will be quite a bit longer than that...this is the reason that FTTN is such a poison pill.
sensible upgrade of FTTN is part of the Coalition's long term plan anyway
Do you have any numbers on that? I certainly haven't seen them, and considering the huge cost, its no wonder.
so it's hard to see where the policy difference is.
The Coalition will continue with the outrageously expensive and highly inefficient FTTN...Labor will stop that rollout and change it to either FTTP or FTTdp at the very least...meaning far fewer people stuck on the FTTN.
sensible upgrade of FTTN is part of the Coalition's long term plan anyway,
Absolute bullcrap Kingy. Not once have the LNP mentioned ANY upgrade to FTTN beyond the initial rollout, and they most certainly haven't EVER costed it as that totally demolishes ANY reason for the MTM.
Labor will stop that rollout and change it to either FTTP or FTTdp at the very least.
one thing Labor should do if they win the election is tell nbn� that they must pull in enough fibre to each node location under build when they take over so that a FDH can be configued adjacent to the node or a fibre junction installed and "skinny" or other fibre tech can be run out from that location at a later date bypassing the node. The labour to pull in a 144 fibre cable is very little more than pulling in a 4 fibre cable, given they are usually using "winch trucks" to do the pull
sensible upgrade of FTTN is part of the Coalition's long term plan anyway
Bullshit, complete fasntasy. For a start there is no upgrade path from FTTN, it has to be replaced. Classic example of a dead end technology.
My current view on a Labor policy, subject to variance on reality and the devil is always in the detail
- Establish strategy of Fibre to each street as fundamental strategy underpinning all other policies
- Review FTTN build contracts and halt all scheduled to begin build after 6 months
- Retain HFC plans to DOCSIS 3.1 with a review period of 2022
- Initiate FTTdP as standard subsidised NBN delivery technology for fixed line in non HFC areas except where cost effective to deliver FTTP. FTTdP not deployed within Brownfields Project timeframe to have future uniform cost, for example $299 (excluding trenching)
- Establish uniform fixed price of ~$499 for Fibre on Demand in fixed line, regardless of location, (excluding trenching), similar to existing Telstra model. No restrictions on progress of deployment for ordering FoD (other than Brownfield start) as the ultimate strategy is fibre to every street.
- Financially to consider providing write off on equity loans to NBN and place on budget.
- Retain existing Wireless and Satellite policy
Edit: And make peace with Libs on the above. The project is too big and important to fail, and can't have anymore politicisation. The above is also a compromise between both sides relatively close viewpoints. Drop NBN Senate Select Committee and govern through estimates.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
FTTN/b component is 38% which means the FTTN component would be around 28% due to FTTN being 10%.
The recently released leaked rollout documents would suggest your estimates are way off.
The number of brownfield premises is estimated to be ~10.1 Million (by 2021) according to the 2012 Corporate plan. This number should be the same for all plans given that brownfields are premises that exist today. So 10.1 million brownfields plus 1 million FW and sat gives 11.1 million. Therefore the number of FttP greenfields in the plan you linked is 11.9 � 11.1 = 0.8 million. Lets take that of the FttP number in the table you are quoting from and list the number just for brownfield fixed line.
FttP = ~1.6 million (2.4 � 0.8 greenfields)
FttN/B = ~4.5 million
HFC = ~4.0 million
The question is, how recent is the modelling which recommended the above totals? That document was publicly available ~August 2015. Clearly the modelling is older than that.
I wonder when the modelling was redone to come up with the more recently leaked figures.
A quick tally of the various technologies in the November 2015 PCC summary spreadsheet reveals the following totals:
FttP = ~1.2 Million (this would be brownfields)
FttN = ~5.0 Million
FttB = ~38.5 Thousand (it is a rounding error in the scheme of things)
HFC = ~3.9 (not listed but it must be the rest of the 10.1 million brownfields)
FttDP = 0 (this will likely be higher but where it will be is currently unknown)
Since many contracts are locked in on FTTN
Clearly contracts can be renegotiated. What has been done once can be done again. Locking in long term contracts would be entirely contradictory to nbnTM's claim of being technology agnostic and using the appropriate technology for each rollout area.
it has wedged and forced Labor into accepting the MTM legacy
Simple nonsense. Of course Labor is going to leave any newly installed FttN/B and HFC in place rather than overbuild. That does not mean that Labors commitment to 'more fibre' in the rollout is in any way an acceptance of Malcolm Turnbulls Misfeasance.
Edit: And make peace with Libs on the above.
that would require the Lib/Nats to also make piece, which to be honest I cannot see them doing
Drop NBN Senate Select Committee and govern through estimates.
problem with Estimates is that they cannot call independent witnesses to "pass judgement" or give ideas on how to do it better. And estimates have become even more politicised in the last 10 or so years, they seem now to be more about beating the Government of the day around the head than actually finding out information
Estimates can only ask about what and how they are carrying out the Governments orders, they can do no investigation of policy or even if it is the correct policy
HFC = ~3.9 (not listed but it must be the rest of the 10.1 million brownfields)
There is going to be a significant FTTN/HFC overlap because an as yet unknown portion of the HFC footprint will be overbuilt with FTTN.
There is going to be a significant FTTN/HFC overlap because an as yet unknown portion of the HFC footprint will be overbuilt with FTTN.
Agreed, and of course Morrow has made much of his perogative to change the technology mix, and which areas will be focused on to deliver against their target .. blah.. blah ..blah.
None of that changes the fact that there are ~10.1 million brownfield premises that form the bulk of the fixed line footprint (along with an estimated 800K greenfields). This is the number that the various technologies will need to add up to (unless something else changes).
ates can only ask about what and how they are carrying out the Governments orders, they can do no investigation of policy or even if it is the correct policy
Didn't think that would be the controversial part :). If you have agreement on policy then you only need estimates
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
which means the FTTN component would be around 28% due to FTTN being 10%.
Want another go at that explanation....??
Since many contracts are locked in on FTTN it has wedged and forced Labor into accepting the MTM legacy.
So you are congratulating sabotage....? Strange set of value Zealot....
All Labor will do is relabel MTM into Hybrid, probably will call it HTM
Really???? fantasy land again....
It would be good if you provide us a link to the claimed $20B in GDP per annum
Your right it is out of date, several posters here have told you where to go...for that reference.... It is out of date because that is based on ROI of 7% and again other posters here, far more intelligent that you and me, have assessed ROI for FTTP is more like 10-12% so extrapolating that contribution to GDP must be some 50% greater..about 2.25%.
Thanks for reinforcing that point and why FTTN is a greater failure than anyone thought.
EDIT: BTW the $20B figure is based on 1.5% contribution in those independent assessments of FTTP and using $2104 dollars for GDP so in today's figures it is even greater again....
Javelyn,
You must not be interested in returning to a full fibre rollout then.
Ahhhh KingeeKingee do you just naturally see the opposite of everything that is put before you or do you deliberately misrepresent and twist everything? Must be a strange way to walk through life.
And just for the record I see an eventual rollout of fibre to everywhere that copper has been rolled out previously. And yes I mean 'everywhere'. I see no point in using obsolete copper for our national telecommunications infrastructure.
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis that Labor has trouble refuting.
As he pulls the other handle ....
Jingle bells, jingle bells,
Jingle all the way,
Oh what fun it is to .......
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis
You mean the one that predicted the median speed requirement in Australia in 2025 would be 15mbps?
The one that forecast Australia's data download requirements � thanks to better compression algorithms � would plateau and remain static for the next two decades at 1/3rd the level they are at today?
The one with the demand model so obviously egregiously wrong even Henry Ergas wouldn't put his name to it?
He was certainly careful about that part of it :-).
but the LNP have already introduced a "poisoned pill"
Today's Telstra $1.6B Agreement on HFC announcement makes thing difficult � all eggs in one basket??? Labor should be sending a curt letter indicating it will not honour LNP contracts if Labor winds the election.
Pot calling kettle black with contract commitment within three weeks of potentially going to caretaker mode..... Telstra must have been very keen to get signoff so it can once again get paid out for doing nothing � predatory activity that.... and the sucker failing and costing the taxpayers big time again is Turnbull.
Something to do with an Ericsson study if I recall
Try just a little bit harder but thanks for confirmation you don't read or at least take in anything that isn't on your song sheet Kingy � blind faith fails you miserably.
Focus on the NBN economic debate instead.
You mean $29.5B now $56B+ for a copper network that is a sunk asset before it is completed?
You mean ROI drop to next to nothing if at all from planned 7% now running at 10%+ for FTTP (early days at that..) and the economic impact of FTTN/MTM failing to getting a $20-30B contribution to GDP?
You mean failure to meet concept of investment forcing the govt to put NBN on budget and become a direct taxpayer expense causing significant economic impacts....?
What is your real point Kingy � accepting failure?
The Coalition on the other hand have the Vertigan CBA. That's a careful economic analysis that Labor has trouble refuting.
Laughable!!!!
Verigan CBA and the SR are hugely discredited documents � wouldn't get a pass mark at University....evidence graphs a couple of days ago as to demand for streaming � way way in excess of Vertigan's 'assumptions'...some call them convenient lies....
And Mark Gregory has also said that Labor's old NBN would take 10 years longer to complete.
If he is right then responsibility rests at Turnbull's feet for massive delay and $20-40B increase in cost...sorry NBN CO said $84B increase in cost to catch up to the rest of the world....when we originally showed them how to do it......Shame Shame Shame!!!
Besides, the average download speed on FTTN is 76 Mbps
perhaps today using FTTB which comprises a very large proportion on FTTN/MTM. BTW what is average download speed of FTTP...?? You pay more for FTTN/MTM product than FTTP atm. Take a ride a couple of years down the track and what are the projections Kingy?
IT is a rubbish meaningless statement.
Labor still remain very quiet on the long term end user affordability on the NBN
Labor imo would be more than confident, about "end user affordability" given the unlimited data and spectrum on which they can wholesale to both the residential and business market on their vastly superior network.
Not to mention the additional revenue potential from being able to create a "National Wifi Network" and commercialise that.
Which would only further support Labor's previously accepted and validated "Business Case" for the NBN, and this also provides the opportunity for Labor to be kicking plenty of goals against turnbull and Co's MTM model.
Where unbelievably nearly 3 years on! the LNP are simply ""unable"" to publish an authorative business case, to support Malcolm Turnbull's Mess!
Which isn't unsurprisingly given MTM is "now" :-
nearly ten (10) times his original forecast back in 2010,
"three" (3) times his 2011 costing
"double" (2) times his 2013 election promise!
---and today! MTM provides less than half the "very conservative" ROI under the Labor model..
Not to mention the mess has a raft of "yet to be announced" revenue impacts from competition to the obsolete architecture they continue wasting Taxpayers hard earned deploying and other cost increases they have hidden under the blanket of darkness they intentionally provide.
Dead set, with a track record of the above disaster in Project Management you'd simply be unemployable anywhere; and yet � the LNP vote this guy into the top job!
Living proof of FTTP uptake and Plan selection prove that wrong
There is not enough information in the public domain to know that. More data is needed to see a clear ARPU trend.
Which is the better retail deal....for consumers Kingy?
Industry opinion is that CVC pricing is too high although recent readjustments may help alleviate congestion problems. An overhaul of pricing is allowable probably because of MTM's lower capex
Under Labor's old policy of full fibre, I doubt such a revision would have been possible. Wholesale pricing under a full fibre regime would have driven users off the NBN and eventually lead to higher retail prices.
As far as Labor policy today is concerned, I agree with what others have said; a write down of some form should be part of Labor policy. Affordability should be the primary concern for Labor.
I haven't really read into this too much yet, is it at all possible Labor can keep the MTM system while replacing the FTTN part with FTTdp, or are the contracts already in place for the current FTTN rollout?
It was obvious that Labor couldn't go back to the original plan, but as long as all that money isn't wasted on the FTTN ridiculous node hardware, the situation is at least manageable.
MTM provides less than half the "very conservative" ROI under the Labor model..
Why is it that nobody else agrees with this?
Labor, telecommunications economists, and I would say many fibre supporters now realise that 7.1% IRR for 93% FTTP was never possible.
I haven't really read into this too much yet, is it at all possible Labor can keep the MTM system while replacing the FTTN part with FTTdp, or are the contracts already in place for the current FTTN rollout?
NBN said it expects to have 1.8 million premises set to be served with FttN covered by a build contract, and 3.4 million issued with contract instructions for design by June 30. By September 30, the numbers are set to increase to 2.4 million premises under build contracts for FttN, and 3.8 million premises covered by design contracts.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/nbn-fttn-users-i ncreasingly-opting-for-slower-speeds/
All Labor needs to do is estimate the extra cost and possible delays for a full switch to FTTdp.
Labor, telecommunications economists, and I would say many fibre supporters now realise that 7.1% IRR for 93% FTTP was never possible.
Source?
All Labor needs to do is estimate the extra cost and possible delays for a full switch to FTTdp.
FTTdp still seems a little odd to me. You are rolling out a lot of fibre, while still having to install and power (so wasteful) a huge number of nodes. How does it make any sense over FTTP?
Still feels like it has the same issue as FTTN had, double dipping with building nodes that are eventually going to be completely redundant the moment you go to FTTP.
Labor, telecommunications economists, and I would say many fibre supporters now realise that 7.1% IRR for 93% FTTP was never possible.
I think within the time frame specified, 7.1% iRR was very achievable. Today? Obviously not. But long term the financial case for the FTTP network becomes more viable.
There is not enough information in the public domain to know that
From Oct 2012, Huge 100Mbps demand: 44% of NBN users take top speed
44 percent of NBN customers signed up so far have opted for the company�s fasted 100Mbps speed tier, the National Broadband Network Company revealed this week, as evidence continues to accumulate that Australians will overwhelmingly pay for the fastest broadband speeds available if given the chance.
Source?
Clare said that the FTTP rollout was too slow when they were in government and even Conroy said he underestimated the capacity of the construction industry. I haven't seen a telco analyst agree with the 7.1% projection since the 2013 target downgrade. As for FTTP supporters, I'm sure many would admit that the rollout was too slow and that it would have gone over budget.
As for FTTP supporters, I'm sure many would admit that the rollout was too slow and that it would have gone over budget.
Anyone who thinks the roll-out at the start wasn't a mess would have to be insane. But New Zealand shows (and our own data) that the efficiency of such a roll-out increases over time. The ironic bit is that the LNP scrapped the FTTP roll-out just as the efficiency levels were increasing, and the cost was decreasing.
As for overall budget, I doubt it would have ended up costs that much more than the new MTM disaster, particularly if you take into account of longer term maintenance and running costs.
The government changing at that time was the worst thing that could have happened, as far as the NBN goes.
From Oct 2012, Huge 100Mbps demand: 44% of NBN users take top speed
That's not enough information to tell if ARPU will increase as expected. It's hovering around $40 at the moment (which isn't too bad) but it was expected to increase to about $60 by 2020.
Troll worthy troll
Ok, forget that I ever mentioned it. Apparently everyone thinks Labor was doing a bang-up NBN job when they were running the show.
FTTP rollout was too slow
And yet, they were only 12 months behind when Mike Quigley resigned. How far behind are they now? Last estimate I saw was 3 years and that was a while ago.
That's not enough information to tell if ARPU will increase as expected
Maybe, but based on the corporate plan at the time, the take up rate and plan selection was well and truely ahead of the estimate to achieve the predicted 7.1% ROI. The writing was there for all to see, except for those who chose to close their eyes.
Apparently everyone thinks Labor was doing a bang-up NBN job when they were running the show
For the most part yes, they ran a massive backbone across the country and starting building a satellite, but couldn't really start customer connections until the Telstra agreement was settled. There were problems yes, but it was a kickstart in the right direction. Whereas apart from FTTB, every one of Libs fixes has been wrong. Their first 'fix' was to put it on hold for another 2 years. They have reneged on almost every election promise they made regarding the nbn.
They have reneged on almost every election promise they made regarding the nbn.
For all of Labors faults, they still did a far far better job of meeting expectations than the LNP has so far haha
There is not enough information in the public domain to know that
Absolute rubbish as always...
Industry opinion is that CVC pricing is too
Why change the subject matter Kingy...don't like reality, truth...? My real life example of direct comparison TODAY between FTTP and FTTN/MTM Plans clearly indicating RSPs ripping off must embarrass you too much.
Mind you compare what the plans were three years ago for ADSL2+ (and every other lower form of ADSL which customers were charged the same for and got less) and what they pay for much the same level of service (some less) now with FTTN/MTM.
Wholesale pricing under a full fibre regime would have driven users off the NBN and eventually lead to higher retail prices.
FACTS are it hasn't, as per my real life example, and in terms of what you get for your money FTTP delivers lots lots more than FTTN/MTM for LESS. Accept the FACTS.
I think within the time frame specified, 7.1% iRR was very achievable. Today? Obviously not.
Today � it would appear FTTP is delivering 10% plus based on higher take up and higher level of Plan than originally estimated to achieve the 7.1%. That ignores the increased takeup when 18mth rule applies to First release/second release areas which can only improve ROI further � for FTTP portion that is.... FTTN/MTM increasing costs and delays (in spite of Political BS) will impact negatively and to a large extent one might expect that many won't change their FTTN plans when they find as many have (anecdotally) got less than they were before.
Conroy said he underestimated the capacity of the construction industry.
Perhaps he meant their capacity to screw the system....
I haven't seen a telco analyst agree with the 7.1% projection
I haven't seen any disagree, other than Turnbull cronies with vested interests. Vertigan etc eliminate themselves from being independent by their failure to produce credible arguments.
As for FTTP supporters, I'm sure many would admit that the rollout was too slow and that it would have gone over budget.
IT is ironic that you ignore Morrow and Turnbull now crying into their laps about the difficulties and magnitude of the project, yet, feast on the obstacles the LNP and Telstra in particular along with ACCC put in the way. Regardless, the reality was accepted and managed. Quigley stated that the project was on budget and on time ...for the life of the project.
Selective periods are convenient for your argument Kingy but worthless in truth. Turnbull's aggravation of delays by deliberately slowing down rather than resourcing for ramp up of FTTP was an abrogation of his Ministerial responsibilities � and all for politics and ideology....
Why is it that nobody else agrees with this?
Well Kingy! you actually do have a good point there!
Given that the ROI for MTM actually isn't � half of what it was under Labor's financial market accepted financial figure of a 7.1 percent ROI.
As the reality is that the disaster the LNP have embarked upon see's the ROI doing a Kamikaze dive into the "Mariana Trench" with impact expected to be at 2.6 percent and given the depth below � then even further no doubt given the absolute mess that turnbull and Co have made of things!
Labor, telecommunications economists, and I would say many fibre supporters now realise that 7.1% IRR for 93% FTTP was never possible
Not sure what planet your on mate but the reality is today we see "NATIONAL" rollouts of FTTH globally and not at the piss FTTNnnn poor unguaranteed UPTO 25Mbps nonsense that turnbull provides but rather 80Gbps networks as currently being deployed in Portugal!
*Noting that even more substantive cost reductions will be effected with the commercialisation of the new ONT equipment expected to be announced prior to the EOF.
That was the technical demand which was, if I recall correctly, the minimum technical capabilities needed.
Even though Microsoft, Cisco and a few others all showed predicted demand to by for more than that.
What consumers would purchase may be higher or lower than that.
Quite correct. I predict that 100% of ADSL customers would order a service 24Mbps or less.
Personally, I would change my current service to 6Mbps or less, if that was a cheaper option.
Because that is all I can get.
The FUD that LNP have pushed out there, "Australians cant afford NBN" etc is now coming back to haunt them. Of course the highly complex nature of MTM will continue to be an impedement both to nbn directly, and the rest of AU in lost opportunities.
No notable commentator has suggested what a better demand projection would be
There have been a huge number over the past year or two. Most predict average demand to be ~50Mbps, although one notable commentator sees no need for more than 12Mbps.
Others have stated that countries with faster than average internet access will have greater growth.
Almost all agree that technology is the major limiting factor in broadband growth.
More data is needed to see a clear ARPU trend.
Early indications of the uptake ratios on FttN given in response to senate QoN appear to tell very different story to FttP take up rates.
Why are only ~11% of FttN plan activations for speeds higher than 25/5?
FttP is double that at the moment and was much higher again in the early stages due to early adopters.
FttB is more inline with current FttP ratios but it is a very small sample size as I understand it.
It's hovering around $40 at the moment (which isn't too bad)
ARPU increased from $39 (Dec 2014) to $43 (Dec 2015) despite the slowing in uptake of the higher speed tiers.
The CVC component of ARPU went from $10 to $13.
That is a pretty clear trend. What is unclear is what effect the hobbled FttN rollout will have as numbers increase, further slowing the takeup of higher speed tiers.
Clearly nbnTM management expect it to be fairly dramatic (from the latest CP page 48).
average monthly ARPU for residential and business is expected to grow from $40 in FY15 to $44 by FY18
Another of those incredibly challenging targets for them to trip over?
Labor clearly sees the danger that FttN presents to revenue growth due to the uncertain nature of the product. This is the primary reason the recent public statements have been clear. There will be more fibre under Labors direction.
Let us hope they will also encourage nbnTM to set demanding targets and strive to meet them rather than the rather lacklustre ones they are currently satisfied with.
The exact nature of Labors policy wont be clear until they announce it, which wont happen before an election is called.
The CVC component of ARPU went from $10 to $13.
So does that mean average CVC per user is 0.75 Mbps across the entire NBN??
RSPs are milking it in that case
So does that mean average CVC per user is 0.75 Mbps across the entire NBN?
Of course not � for one thing the entire NBN hasn't been built (and won't be built any time soon, thanks to your Coalition friends), not to mention the inclusion of 150Mbps per RSP per POI until 30,000 premises are passed by that POI.
RSPs are milking it in that case
Are you under the impression that all RSPs provision the same amount of CVC?
Under Labor's old policy of full fibre, I doubt such a revision would have been possible.
Yeah, lower ongoing costs and higher port revenues would have made CVC reductions harder, right?
I agree with what others have said
I'm sure you do, even if they didn't actually say what you claim they did.
Affordability should be the primary concern for Labor.
So again I ask, does that mean that you are against further rolling out temporary expensive MTM and that you favour return to the only economically and technically viable option (FTTP)?
So does that mean average CVC per user is 0.75 Mbps across the entire NBN??
That was the evidence given to the Senate by Rue on Feb 9 2016.
EDIT: Queeg is correct. This doesn't include the 150Mbps rebate per CSA
An interesting table on p101 of the unreleased draft 2013-16 corporate plan gave a breakdown of the mix of forecast revenues in FY2021.
Fibre AVC = 52%
CVC & NNI = 26%
Business services (excluding above components) = 12%
Multicast & other = 9%
FW & Satellite = 1%
Those percentages are clearly based on some form of aggregate contention ratio. The model allows for CVC to fall as AVC increases, not through price increases (AVC tier prices are expected to fall) rather through increased uptake of higher speed tiers.
As the higher speeds are taken up CVC prices must go down to ensure the RSPs can buy more to provide the increased performance their customers are demanding.
RSPs are milking it in that case
The big problem for consumers in what is a rapidly changing market is that most RSPs will be conservative with CVC. Supply will lag demand because of the cost of getting your forecasts wrong. As the customer base increases, and systems improve and changing usage patterns are allowed for, the volatility will settle and supply and demand will align more closely.
because of MTM's lower capex
That makes zero sense...Opex is far more important to setting pricing. Anyway, the TCO for MTM is a multiple of what the FTTP version was, so I think you are way off base on this.
Under Labor's old policy of full fibre, I doubt such a revision would have been possible
Why is that? The cost of MTM is higher no matter how you slice it...
Affordability should be the primary concern for Labor
If you mean long term lower costs and increased revenue for the country, I tend to agree...that's why the entire MTM is such a bad idea.
Apparently everyone thinks Labor was doing a bang-up NBN job when they were running the show.
umm thats because, compared to the LNP, they were doing an absolutely PERFECT job! And the only way anyone coudl think otherwise is because A)they are blind to reality, B)they are paid to be blind to reality, or C)both of the above.
Apparently everyone thinks Labor was doing a bang-up NBN job when they were running the show.
Well everyone who actually understood what actually was being delivered:- eg people like
Dr Gerrand,
Teresa Corbin from ACCAN,
John Stanton from CommsAlliance,
Managing Directors (now former) Rosemary Sinclair and Allan Horsley
together with Tim Herring and Graham Shepherd
Who recognised that Labor and specifically Mike Quigley, who and I quote!
1. Built from scratch a company of close to 3000 people with all of the processes and systems needed to function as a wholesale telecommunications company.
2. Successfully launched an Interim Satellite service, which was more popular than had been anticipated.
3. Designed and contracted a Long Term Satellite solution that was on schedule and on budget for services beginning in mid 2015.
4. Designed and was deploying a 4G, Fixed Wireless network.
5. Designed and was deploying a Transit Network to support all access technologies.
This project was on budget and on schedule for completion by 2015.
6. Designed, developed and deployed fully functioning OSS/BSS systems that had been proven to function at scale.
7. Designed and established a National Test Facility and a Network Operations Centre.
8. Successfully designed, developed and launched a suite of Products covered by a Wholesale Broadband Agreement which were signed by many Retail Service Providers.
9. Developed a 27-year Special Access Undertaking, which was subsequently accepted by the ACCC. This was unprecedented.
10.Built a Greenfields fibre capability that could complete more than 30 new developments a week, anywhere in the country.
11.Built a Customer Connect capability that had connected more than 100k end users and which was rapidly growing the ability to deal with the exceptionally high take-up rates that were being experienced.
12.While the construction phase of the Brownfields fibre rollout experienced difficulties these problems were being overcome while preserving the integrity of NBN Co�s financial plan.
It should be noted that any one of the projects NBN Co was undertaking; Satellite, Fixed Wireless, Brownfields, Greenfields, the Transit Network, a major OSS/BSS development, a new wholesale product and pricing structure plus a 27-year SAU, would be a major challenge for even a mature Telco.
NBN Co was doing it all simultaneously while building a company from a standing start.
//
Which is why he got this!
http://telsoc.org/event/nati
Cheers
It should be noted that any one of the projects NBN Co was undertaking; Satellite, Fixed Wireless, Brownfields, Greenfields, the Transit Network, a major OSS/BSS development, a new wholesale product and pricing structure plus a 27-year SAU, would be a major challenge for even a mature Telco.
Damned right!!
Turnbull and his contrived Board and CEO appointees couldn't build at anywhere near the same rate as the so called 'failing' FTTP rollout � and he had none of that to contend with....one presumes because he didn't want to....What a failure!!
Industry opinion is that CVC pricing is too high although recent readjustments may help alleviate congestion problems. An overhaul of pricing is allowable probably because of MTM's lower capex
That is BS, if anything the opposite is true due to MTM.
Takeup and revenue are the key words, FTTP kills FTTN in that area.
NBN Co was doing it all simultaneously while building a company from a standing start
Excellent breakdown and perspective aARQ...
It is good to remember that Quigley's performance was Herculean by comparison to Morrow's. He had 10 times the responsibility, and performed some absolutely amazing things. The other thing to remember is that even in the areas where he wasn't yet perfect, he already had in place the tools to make it so over time (e.g. Project Fox).
I salute you Mr Quigley Down Under...
That is BS, if anything the opposite is true due to MTM.
Takeup and revenue are the key words, FTTP kills FTTN in that area
Well stated and exactly correct...
It is good to remember that Quigley's performance was Herculean by comparison to Morrow's. He had 10 times the responsibility, and performed some absolutely amazing things. The other thing to remember is that even in the areas where he wasn't yet perfect, he already had in place the tools to make it so over time (e.g. Project Fox).
I salute you Mr Quigley Down Under...
This praise can NOT be over stated!
It should be noted
But the LNP songsheet stipulates that we MUST categorise all this as wasted time delaying customer access to "up to" 25Mbps internets...
I salute you Mr Quigley Down Under...
Well said and seconded by me....Shame those that do good get shafted for it. Says something (bad) about those that inflict such undeserved barrages.
>I'd suggest only if the economics long term stack up and I'd expect it won't. That is more of an interim political solution to keep people who have missed out on FTTP because of Turnbull's poor decision making.
I don't think the long term economics will stack up, but I suspect Labor will do it so suddenly it doesn't look like NBN stalls under them.
Sadly PR wins out over pragmatism in politics all too often.
My suspicion on Labor policy will be a switch to FTTdp with areas that already have their contracts and signed and planned for FTTN, then FTTP for areas that are still in pre-planning.
I am sorry to say that a FTTN build is an entirely different build to a FTTdp
it would be easier in a contract sense to drop back from a FTTP to an FTTdp design as 95% would be usable under either design than to move from a FTTN t a FTTdp design as very little of a FTTN build is usable for a FTTdp build
The earthworks are different, the skill set is different, much more pulling of "cables" over distances..
The primes would have to terminate lots of contracts to small subbies doing the earthworks and concreting, power hookups, copper pulls, copper terminations.
I would think more people would be effected by this than when Mal killed the FTTP contracts
You would have to throw out the FTTN contract and start again
You would have to throw out the FTTN contract and start again
So very unfortunate but those on FTTN now would have to wait until FTTdP/FTTP is done and hope the ROI is enough to allow an upgrade when everywhere else is finished. Still, if the returns are good there is always hope that those small villages that get a copper phone service and not on any rollouts could one day get fibre to their area and off of satellite.
I am sorry to say that a FTTN build is an entirely different build to a FTTdp
From my understanding FTTdb upgrades FTTN by running fibre from the node, which then connects to the existing copper
From my understanding FTTdb upgrades FTTN by running fibre from the node, which then connects to the existing copper
Nope, you might be thinking of micronodes (which may get power and backhaul from larger nodes) � FTTDP doesn't use nodes at all.
you might be thinking of micronodes
Ah true, yeah thats what I was thinking about.
Nope, you might be thinking of micronodes (which may get power and backhaul from larger nodes) � FTTDP doesn't use nodes at all.
and the "micronodes" that nbn� are using are all locally powered and are connected back to the FAN/AAS, they are not supplied fibre from the nearest full size node
Nope, you might be thinking of micronodes (which may get power and backhaul from larger nodes) � FTTDP doesn't use nodes at all.
Just to save toing and froing has anyone got access to simple diagramatic of the two methods FTTN and FTTdp?
Just to save toing and froing has anyone got access to simple diagramatic of the two methods FTTN and FTTdp?
I was googling this before, to better understand what FTTdp actually is. http://www.ispreview.co.uk/wp
If FTTdP is going to reuse pits in some cases I hope that they are properly waterproof. Otherwise, don't bother.
I hope that they are properly waterproof. Otherwise, don't bother.
Its is a concern, mine flood regularly.
Of course if it came with FOD I would pay for that. Up to $2,000. Maybe more.
If FTTdP is going to reuse pits in some cases I hope that they are properly waterproof. Otherwise, don't bother.
Well we have been told numerous times by a certain someone on here how the whole CAN is water sealed so it's nothing to worry about.
I guess all the many people whose ADSL drops to crap or out completely when it rains must just be all mass hallucinating at the same time whenever it rains o.O
I was googling this before, to better understand what FTTdp actually is.
Whilst it is a good guide to the differences between each technology, I hate the usage of terms like short, long very long with no actual distances.
I guess by the speeds that they are showing for ADSL would imply that most phone lines in Australia are longer than "long" (yes this is exchange to premises and hopefully node to premises will be shorter, yet we know that they are installing nodes with copper lines of over 1000 metres )
They are showing 100 Mbps over "short" VDSL2 lines and again it shows that nbn� are not running VDSL2 over short lines
Just a couple of questions about fttdp:
1. Is the Distribution Point in the Pit or within/on the Property Boundary? How about for Aerial?
2. Can reverse-fed power from the customer supply enough juice for the Fibre media converter or do they need to feed additional power from the street to make up the shortfall?
Of course if it came with FOD I would pay for that. Up to $2,000. Maybe more.
With FTTdP enabled it should then be a job similar to what Telstra do now with installing new phone lines, and they charge $299, if the customer digs the trench beforehand. If it costs a lot more than that I would love to see their reasoning as to why.
Just a couple of questions about fttdp:
Here is a long explanation of FTTdP.
http://telsoc.org/ajtde/2014-03-v2-n1/a26
1. Fibre to the Distribution Point (FTTdp) is a broadband access network technology that encompasses fibre to the street lead-in pit at the front fence, with an average copper lead-in length of 30m.
2. The FTTdp option is associated with the 'final' copper network distribution point, and the deployment of weather-protected micro-node devices reverse-powered from the premises. Such micro-node devices may serve up to 16 premises in medium density urbanised environments, or 4 premises in a standard suburban environment.
This guy whrl.pl/ReA4Qv says it's a red herring as far as FOD is concerned.
With FTTdP enabled it should then be a job similar to what Telstra do now with installing new phone lines, and they charge $299, if the customer digs the trench beforehand
I agree and if my memory is right Conroy asked Morrow the very question in the Senate.
Morrow wasn't aware telstra only charge $299.
Here is a long explanation of FTTdP.
http://telsoc.org/ajtde/2014-03-v2-n1/a26
It is interesting that in this explanation, they mention 'average copper lead-in lenght of 30m' several times, and then say perhaps as short as 30m.
The FTTdp device used in this paper is a VDSL2 device, not G.Fast, and not reverse powered.
As nbn seem to want to occupy � of the ports, this 12 port model would have 8 lines attached.
Picture your own street. Imagine one of these in your telecom pit (you won node lotto). Concider the 7 nearest houses on your left. Add up the distances to those houses from your pit, (no diagonals!).
Add another 10m for internal wiring.
Add your cable length.
Divide by 8.
How many of you came up with under 30?
(OK, some new developments with 7m frontages and 2m setback may get this)
Of course Morrow and Turnbull are loving this discussion. Ignore the failings of MTM and look at a quarter assed solution.
I agree and if my memory is right Conroy asked Morrow the very question in the Senate.
Morrow wasn't aware telstra only charge $299
Telstra charge $299 but make it clear that their costs are significantly higher. They make their money back by renting the line for the next 10+ years.
In the same way some companies sell capital equipment for low profit margins, but get the service and long tail effect.
From the Morning Bulletin:
NBN Forum
Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare, Senator Jan McLucas and ALP Candidate for Capricornia, Leisa Neaton invite you to attend a forum about the National Broadband Network
This forum is designed to tell locals how Labor will deliver on this critical project. We believe the NBN needs to be rolled out on an equitable basis around the country so people in regional areas like Central Queensland are not disadvantaged.
Come to Central Queensland University
Bruce Highway, North Rockhampton
6.00pm � 8.00pm Thursday 14 April
RSVP 1300 301 959
Where have you been Kingy that was posted some time ago....?
It was KingForce who posted it previously, as part of his ongoing "Labor need to say what they're going to do, because I won't believe what they've already said they're going to do" narrative.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2512805&p=5#r93
It was KingForce who posted it previously
Thanks � Then I'll happily retract the first part of my comment. They still need to catch up with NBN Technology choice and the real world though.
Good to see Kingy getting excited about a forum that Jason Clare is attending � . That forum will probably get broadcast as the first thing Clare has done in years....
I wonder if Kingy will go and ask some questions or clarify some of his (mis)understandings. I'd expect it wouldn't change the usual mantra posts though from FTTN/MTM ludities.
From the Morning Bulletin:
NBN Forum
So how many MTM public forums are the Government hosting to allow members of the public to voice their opinions on the MTM kingee�?
Ohh that's right they're all carefully staged media events aren't they.
...how many MTM public forums are the Government hosting...
Campaign signs in Rockhampton � -
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf_M55NWQAA-M57.jpg
A picture paints 1000 words. What do you suppose voters are telling Labor is the biggest election issue this year?
Visit http://leisaneaton.ml.net.au/ (admittedly you'll be one of the few by the looks of things). In any case, Ms Neaton calls for responses to -
"Our Rights at Work" .......................................... 5
"Protect Paid Parental Leave" ........................... 5
"Protect Education" ............................................ 10
"Fight for a High Speed World Class NBN" ...... 109
I really hope Labor starts turning up the heat. So far I'm discouraged by their cautious approach despite the fact there's such a high level of dissatisfaction in the electorate.
So far I'm discouraged by their cautious approach despite the fact there's such a high level of dissatisfaction in the electorate.
I feel that the ALP do have to be cautious. They don't want to be wedged by the LNP by coming out too early with a definitive policy. Of course Kingee would like to see the ALP put all their cards on the table.
I feel that the ALP do have to be cautious. They don't want to be wedged by the LNP by coming out too early with a definitive policy.
Labor would need info from all of those CiC, blacked out and reams of white pages first.
I feel that the ALP do have to be cautious. They don't want to be wedged by the LNP by coming out too early with a definitive policy
So far the alp is doing a great job of setting the policy agenda and painting the libs into a very unpopular corner, let's hope they manage to continue this with their NBN policy.
peoples views on this
news Bill Shorten appears to have confirmed Labor will retain elements of the Coalition�s controversial Multi-Technology Mix policy if it won power in the upcoming Federal Election, in what the Labor leader described as a �hybrid� version of the NBN.
Speaking at Sky News� People�s Forum last night, Shorten said Labor wouldn�t �rip up everything that Mr Turnbull has done� with respect to the NBN, because he didn�t believe �everything that the Liberals do is bad�.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
peoples views on this
It's been discussed extensively for the last seven pages of the thread, since /forum-replies.cfm?t=2512805&p=5#r88 linked to the Coalition's deliberately misleading press release.
http://www.themorningbulleti
Labor are going to need to take a lot of time and money to fix this pyrite-plated mess.
I feel that the ALP do have to be cautious. They don't want to be wedged by the LNP by coming out too early with a definitive policy.
I'm not talking about the timing of policy releases, I'm talking about rhetoric and narrative.
At best, Labor is sending mixed messages. At worst, overall they look as weak as dishwater.
Shorten said Labor wouldn�t �rip up everything that Mr Turnbull has done...�
Case in point. There's a huge distinction between "won't" and "can't."
What the hell, Bill Shorten? Why don't you just call a photo op and give Turnbull a big wet kiss on the lips?
Sheesh. People wonder why Fifield then gets a woody and says "Labor admits the MTM has a great deal of merit." If I was Fifield, I would have done the exact same thing. Bill Shorten just held the door open for him.
The ALP needs to get the axes and clubs out. Why on earth Bill Shorten (and not for the first time) took such a conciliatory tone is a complete mystery to me. He did the same thing in Gosford on March 9 .
"...we'll look at what the Turnbull Government's done and see how we can improve upon that."
I'm no James Carville or George Stephanopoulos, but it seems to me there's no benefit for Labor in repeatedly implying that the Libs are doing anything the right way, especially when it comes to the NBN.
Instead of
-
"we'll see what we can improve",
I'll be happier if and when Bill Shorten accepts the following suggestion from me -
"Malcolm Turnbull has made a huge catastrophic mess. That can't be over-stated. He's single-handedly sent Australia's digital economy backwards, and set the original future-proof and equitable broadband network back at least 15 years. He's not only failed to close the digital divide, he's widened it and created several more. Unfortunately now he's advanced his ill-conceived plans to the point where a lot of people are going to be disadvantaged for quite a long time. We're going to be stuck with some things we CAN'T undo right away without further disadvantaging the poor people and businesses Turnbull has already thrown under the bus."
Then, at least, we wouldn't get from Fifield "See? Labor admits the LNP MTM is the right way to go after all!"
I have the blackest pessimism about Labor's NBN policy.
I wonder with all the Moody's deficit hoo haa that it might be very, very difficult politically to sell any NBN improvement. I know that doesn't make sense with the facts; you know and I know that the ROI is what matters. But your average Joe the Bogan who believes every Newscorpse headline might never get it.
I thought in 2013 that this was the end of any world class broadband in Australia. Not just for now. Or for next week or next decade. But for all time. Forever. We are now a 3rd world Banana Republic. We had the time to not be one. Had we started a fibre internet rollout in the 90's and done 1/10th of it a year we would be home and dry. But we have had 20 years of the politics of distraction. I am cynical enough to think that there are vested interests in wanting that: a 19th century tech backwater. Could say 3000 words more but I would be off topic.
In short it's dead. It's over. Labor won't save it.
Hopefully Labor will have learned lessons from the Coalition.
Bugger the coalition learn from real life stuff internationally... Labor NBN policy makers should note this article...
http://www.buddeblog.com.au/
Quote � With the new results available to them, the argument now is that in many cases the cost of a full transiting from DOCSIS 3.0 to 3.1 are so great that it would be more cost effective to go to FTTH.
Looks like it is on with regards to NBN policies. Labor has said that they'll bring FTTP to the west coast of Tasmania communities that Turnbull decided to relegate to satellite.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
With the new results available to them, the argument now is that in many cases the cost of a full transiting from DOCSIS 3.0 to 3.1 are so great that it would be more cost effective to go to FTTH.
But Malcolm invented the internet and he knows!!!!
Not surprising really!
Looks like it is on with regards to NBN policies. Labor has said that they'll bring FTTP to the west coast of Tasmania communities
They should look at the seat of Swan in WA where half have got FTTP and half are getting FTTN in Cannington etc. What an opportunity for them to demonstrate to voters the differences between FTTP and FTTN particularly pricing for Plans.
In election mode LNP must be directing air traffic over South Perth Kensington Vic Pk Belmont (two weeks constant now even though there is a sharing plan in place) as they are so happy with FTTP and can't afford to upset the other half in Cannington etc getting FTTN with that as well. ...... /s
They should look at the seat of Swan in WA where half have got FTTP and half are getting FTTN in Cannington etc.
Dalyellup down south here is in the same boat, 3 different techs I believe? I know they have FTTP and they are getting FTTN but I believe the older sections have cable or something with another provider?
Here in Capel we are getting FTTP and FTTN plus the already existing FW which completely misses the entire townsite.
Labor will deliver fibre NBN to West Coast
http://www.jasonclare
They should look at the seat of Swan in WA where half have got FTTP and half are getting FTTN in Cannington etc
Just to reinforce that...
Quote extract from Cannington thread.....
...my maximum line rate that I had from last night of 76 Mbps has since halved for some reason:
Maximum Line rate
25.83 Mbps, 35.03 Mbps
Line Rate
22.6 Mbps, 31.9 Mbps
... but if there is something that can be done to rectify the speed back to the purchased 50 Mbps package........
Labor will deliver fibre NBN to West Coast
http://www.jasonclare.c
......and so say all of us ...too .....please
....and so say all of us ...too .....please
It's really not going to be hard for the ALP to better the LNP NBN policy is it, just change it from Corporate style project at lowest cost everything else be dammed, back to National infrastructure project to benefit all of Australia and Done!
It's really not going to be hard for the ALP
It helps when the technology gets better and better.
http://www.huawei.com/en/new
It helps when the technology gets better and better.
http://www.huawei.com/en/ne
Wow, and thats out of the lab too isn't it?
helps when the technology gets better and better.
http://www.huawei.com/en/ne
Bloody impressive but only at prototype stage atm, still they don't muck About and are very good at bring new tech to market rapidly.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
A "hoax" huh. Let me guess, they'll bring FTTN and to the west coast instead.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/
A "hoax" huh. Let me guess, they'll bring FTTN and to the west coast instead.
Quote � Mr Whiteley said he was working to come up with a funded solution.
"I have a solution presentation tomorrow that I'll be making to the Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull and to Will Hodgman, the Premier of Tasmania, because I believe it will need to be a joint solution," he said.
"It's a substantial fix, it's probably somewhere around $18 million
Mr Whitely needs to recognise the hoax is on him from his own LNP party. Seriously, the funding for FTTP was in NBN coffers from the start and should have been completed by now. To expect new funding external to NBN/nbnTM is a total con. Is he representing the constituents � the voters � or the politics of his party?
By his own admission Whitely is making this up as he goes with a public bid to his masters who would appear not to have any idea about this fix. He has been let down by his masters, his party, it seems. On form any pre election promise would simply wither away..."oh so sorry, we looked at the figures again and can't do that at all for your nbnTM....satellite is it"
Well done Jason Clare. One expects this is just the start....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDJxk9Vfjew
Here is the April 28 video of Rob Mitchell and Jason Clare in Sunbury with a Forum on the NBN. Haven't watched it yet and the sound could've been better.
video of Rob Mitchell and Jason Clare in Sunbury with a Forum on the NBN
Enlightening stuff. The trials and tribulations these people are having to start with, and then lumbered with FTTN and Satellite issues as well.
Learned that there is additional costs for Sat users for data downloads....digital divide? Not sure that was part of original NBN plan (ubiquitous?) or a bit of 'opportunity' for revenue since change of govt.
Zealot and Kingy should take the time to see the real world here......apart from Clare's commitment to FTTP.
Good to hear Shorten's Budget Reply speech strong commitment to Fibre NBN. Look forward to more details....
I don't know if anyone else listening to Senate Estimate tonight picked up on this as being significant, but Conroy specifically asked nbn� if the commitment to take over all of Teltra's HFC network by taking any of it � would be triggered before 30 June (if I heard it correctly), and they said no. It suggests to me Labor may be thinking of walking away from the HFC � or at very least re-negotiating it.
Labor may be thinking of walking away from the HFC � or at very least re-negotiating it.
They have to � HFC areas are the major profit centres (why else would telstra do anything there in the first place?) and its key to going back to profitability.
It suggests to me Labor may be thinking of walking away from the HFC � or at very least re-negotiating it.
It's probably too costly to walk away from, so alter it to FTTP perhaps. The FTTdP one person "trial" means that technology can't be used for a Labor government to implement straight away.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
from what I heard in NZ the user has to pay for the connection cost.
False.
Costs
We cover the cost of fibre installation for most residential properties. This service includes:
Connecting your property to the fibre network in your street via the existing infrastructure
Reinstating any surfaces that have been disturbed during the install
Installing the external termination point on the exterior of the property
Installing the optical network terminal inside the property
Connecting your broadband provider�s modem
Testing to make sure everything is working
The only thing they don't cover is:
Any alternative installation from the road to the property that is outside our five different installation options.
So in the vast majority of cases, the installation doesn't cost you anything. If you have some sort of weird situation, then yeah it would probably cost something
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
That is because Verizon is not a nation wide rollout
same with NZ where the rollout is going to only ~ 70% of the population
Clutching at straws Zealot...... a technology rollout is a rollout and while there will be differentials for various reasons they will be marginal but five times more expensive than Verizon build and two times NZ ? � give it a break.
EDIT: You probably ignored it but Ozziemandias posted link to Quigley's statement exposing Turnbull's myth which demonstrates difference is � apples for apples more like $500.... I know who is more credible
I bumped into the local ALP candidate for Casey at the train station this morning, seemed pretty switched on and while not technical I thought i'd throw in my 2c on the NBN and see what sort of response I got.
He certainly seemed to think that Shorten's "full fibre" meant a return to FTTP as quickly as reasonably possible (although not an instant down tools on FTTN). He also said that I wasnt the first pi$$ed off ICT professional who personally told him we wanted a Royal Commission into the liberal parties destruction of the NBN.
Anyhoo, I look forward to seeing the actual policy when it appears.
He certainly seemed to think that Shorten's "full fibre" meant a return to FTTP as quickly as reasonably possible
That is in accord with Bowen at Press Club today in Budget reply statement. Full commitment to FTTP NBN ...details to come
That is in accord with Bowen at Press Club today in Budget reply statement. Full commitment to FTTP NBN ...details to come
Interesting. He would certainly be the best source. I Look forward to seeing the ALP policy. If it is full FTTP (apart from what is already built and contracted etc), they will open themselves up to the attack by LNP on the economics.
If it is full FTTP (apart from what is already built and contracted etc),
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
You could argue that it was always a MTM, as Labor's original plan included satellite and fixed wireless, so was never "full" fibre
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
The obvious option would be to come back to "MtM" areas once everyone else has the NBN and replace the copper networks with FTTP.
they will open themselves up to the attack by LNP on the economics.
So how do LNP justify highlighting their 2013 $29B election promise that went to $42B and then $56B...I think the immediate Labor response is obvious...don't lecture us....
As an aside I have previously posted that the original NBN V1 costing of $43B has never in itself been challenged directly and quantified (only seen SR Turnbull version of FTTP with crap assumptions and other contrivances/loadings) so with that as a starting point plus $8.5B predicted by NBN Co (if that can be believed) to switch back to FTTP it is actually still cheaper to go back to FTTP....$52B?
IT'S TIME!!!!.The catchcry call may just well be to make sure your friends vote for Labor if the NBN FTTP project is to be saved.
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy. It will still be a MTM rollout.
Of course they can...only a couple of hundred thousand FTTN services built compared to ~2M � MTM is a pimple on the bum at the moment � sooner it is excised the better
I imagine the ROI of FTTP is so much higher and over a longer life span that it would still be profitable to rip up all the FTTN now and replace with FTTP.
They have no right to call it a full FTTP rollout if upgrading existing FTTN builds are excluded from their policy.
We dont' need semantics like this clogging up and taking away the debate about the real problems. I get what your saying.. and technically, yes, thats a claim to make. But come on... We have larger issues that are far more detrimental and if they arent fixed ASAP, god knows how worseoff we'll be (if thats even possible now).
upgrading existing FTTN builds
I cannot be upgraded, the equipment has to be decommissioned and replaced. Imagine all those power lines that will need to be turned off.
If it is full FTTP (apart from what is already built and contracted etc),
Is that actually confirmed?
They won't replace any new FTTN?
They won't replace any new FTTN?
Not until other areas have fttp � then hfc and fttn will be upgraded???
Maybe Labor will roll back any new FTTN work
They are ahead in both NewsPoll & Essential Research Polls 51-49 � my guess is they won't until their second term, if they win.
I asked our local Oxely Labor member (Milton Dick) this:
Whats your position on Telecoms? specifically the NBN. We desperately need service in the Centenary Village (Darra). We were scheduled for Fibre in 2014 before the LNP scuppered it for their dogs breakfast FTTN. Now, who knows what and when.
. Current speeds are 2 Mbps, if you can get a connection at all � no ports left on wacol exchange and it it drops out in the rain.
. Decent broadband is a necessity to work and access services nowadays.
And got this reply:
This is a really important issue that many residents throughout Darra and other parts of Oxley are giving me feedback about.
. Our plan under a Labor Government is to build the real NBN using fibre to the home and improve connection speeds significantly, as the current system is simply not good enough.
. As you mentioned, over the past 3 years the NBN rollout under the LNP has blown out and proven to be more expensive, less reliable and far slower than promised with their fibre to the node and I'll be doing my best to see this doesn't continue
Maybe Labor will roll back any new FTTN work
They are ahead in both NewsPoll & Essential Research Polls 51-49 � my guess is they won't until their second term, if they win.
Polls have them ahead, but they did not have a good few days. Every time an ALP candidate comes out opposing the immigration policy, they take a step backwards. I find it remarkable that they don't seem to understand this (the candidates opposing the policy I mean, Bill Shorten understands it perfectly).
Once Labor release their policy, they should start ad campaigns in any area that hasn't started build yet, specifically comparing what they will get under the LNP and what they will get under the ALP. I.e take what they did in West Tasmania and expand. Engage the internet army.
no matter what the Liberals do to it, when Labor gets back in they put it right back to where it should be.
lets hope so!
For brownfields the contracts already signed means that going back to FTTP will not happen.
You are advocating that we should fall for the 'sunk cost trap' � making a bad circumstance worse and losing even more money just because a lot of money has already been spent on it.
This is a classic business problem. The fact is, the cost of the copper is sunk � we can't get it back. We can't let that cloud our judgement for the future. If using that copper is going to make us worse off in the long run, then it's better to abandon it.
That's the rational approach � the problem will be the politics...
So you are actually betting each way .
I just put very little faith in anything that comes out of a politicians mouth. I believe the actions I see them take.
How many times do you have to be told their is no Fiber in Australia.
There most certainly is a Fiber in Australia. His name is Malcolm.
Sure, however we are seeing a lot of talk from alp candidates about FTTP so we'll have to wait for the policy.
Do you have actual quotes of ALP candidates talking about FTTP?
I bumped into the local ALP candidate for Casey at the train station this morning, seemed pretty switched on and while not technical I thought i'd throw in my 2c on the NBN and see what sort of response I got.
He certainly seemed to think that Shorten's "full fibre" meant a return to FTTP as quickly as reasonably possible (although not an instant down tools on FTTN).
This is the problem. By excluding the word FTTP leaves the ALP candidates to be unsure.
I do not see Clare going around saying FTTP.
Why? the most efficient and economic way to do it is as per NBN V1 � cost recovery through RSP charges for Plans.
In many cases there is no chance of recovering cost particularly if Labor decides to rollout FTTP in a cherry picked part of Tassie at a cost that is reportedly $10K per premise.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Do you have actual quotes of ALP candidates talking about FTTP?
Seriously Raoul, You are useless aren't you.
Bendigo's labor MP:
�Our ultimate goal is fibre to the premises for every household, every business. It may be a two-stage process where people already have fibre to the node, but for the rest of them, fibre to the premises.�
http://www.bendigoadvertiser
Plus West Tassie etc
�Our ultimate goal is fibre to the premises for every household, every business. It may be a two-stage process where people already have fibre to the node, but for the rest of them, fibre to the premises.�
http://www.bendigoadvertise
A two stage process. There is nothing convincing in this statement. Convincing words would be;
Labor will rollout FTTP
Both parties have an ultimate goal of FTTP, it does not mean that the govt will undertake the risk. Even the Coalition has said the end goal is FTTP, it does not mean the govt will get involved in the the rollout! Perhaps both parties will try and get the private sector to rollout FTTP � e.g. labor 2nd stage whatever that means.
Plus West Tassie etc
That is a problem in that Labor are not promising other parts of Australia to get FTTP, they have chosen a cherry picked location. Why aren' t they promising other parts of AU to get FTTP besides West Tassie? Questions should be raised on whether it's possible for a sitting govt to tell a GBE to discriminate regions?
What Labor is doing with west Tassie is like telling a GBE to offer cheap prices to certain suburbs.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
That is a problem in that Labor are not promising other parts of Australia to get FTTP, they have chosen a cherry picked location.
Oh rubbish zealot, as usual you are cherry picking snippets and ignoring the context. The Bendigo MP has let the cat out of the alp policy bag.
That is an Aus wide policy with the only missing piece of the puzzle HFC. We don't know if they'll use it or not.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Why aren' t they promising other parts of AU to get FTTP besides West Tassie?
Well lets think for a second...why oh why would they have chosen west Tassie...Couldn't possibly be they plan to deliver them the FTTP they were promised right from the get go. The same promise Turnbull made then reneged on. That couldn't possibly be it.
I won't deny that's simply blatant vote-mongering, but I don't disagree with it. They were promised FTTP initially for a reason. They (and the rest of Australia) damn well deserve it.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
a cost that is reportedly $10K per premise.
Source?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Even the Coalition has said the end goal is FTTP
Again, this begs the question. Why are they pissing $56b away on something that's going to get replaced in 5-10 years?! It's completely financially irresponsible and downright stupid!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is the problem. By excluding the word FTTP leaves the ALP candidates to be unsure.
I do not see Clare going around saying FTTP.
Because not everyone knows what 'FTTP' means. 'Full fibre' is talking to the target audience by trimming down the jargon.
Bendigo's labor MP:
�Our ultimate goal is fibre to the premises for every household, every business. It may be a two-stage process where people already have fibre to the node, but for the rest of them, fibre to the premises.�
http://www.bendigoadvertise
That's quite a limb our Lisa has gone out on (and zealot, improve comprehension � two-stage for those already on FTTN and 'Labor will rollout FTTP' is exactly what she said). She did let the cat out of the bag, though it's very good news. Dare I say it's an indication of how to vote, if for no other reason than to get a reasonable NBN.
(Lisa Chesters went to my high school in Queensland. It's definitely her. That she became the federal member for the seat of Bendigo is monumental.)
Again, this begs the question. Why are they pissing $56b away on something that's going to get replaced in 5-10 years?! It's completely financially irresponsible and downright stupid!
Exactly, but their aim is to get something in the ground that brings in revenue to get the business going. Australia is paying dearly for that aim. The consequences are diabolical financially, alone.
Again, this begs the question. Why are they pissing $56b away on something that's going to get replaced in 5-10 years?! It's completely financially irresponsible and downright stupid!
Because it's about marketing a point of difference. This point of difference of 'cost saving' (initially, but way more in the long run) is about appealing to the less critically thinking, typically the elderly who don't, ON AVERAGE, appreciate higher speed internet. It wins votes and goes with the Libs slogans and rhetoric of 'Labor Waste' and wins them, swinging voters.
The irony is that the Libs are the wasteful ones and the poorer economic managers. Internet forums like these are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF SWINGING VOTERS CONCERNS.
typically the elderly who don't, ON AVERAGE, appreciate higher speed internet
Again, do you have any actual study or data that tells us this?
I think it would be wise to not pre-judge...my own experience tells me you are wrong, but that is just my own experience.
That's quite a limb our Lisa has gone out on (and zealot, improve comprehension � two-stage for those already on FTTN and 'Labor will rollout FTTP' is exactly what she said). She did let the cat out of the bag, though it's very good news.
I'm pretty sure Clare has previously mentioned the two stage process for FTTN as well, so it's starting to look like the upgrading of FTTN to FTTP at some point will be part of their policy. Hopefully this becomes official in due course. :)
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
What Labor is doing with west Tassie is like telling a GBE to offer cheap prices to certain suburbs.
Yes, but another way to look at it is simply making good on the Liberal's promise. Tassie was promised FTTP as all existing contracts were to be honoured. The libs then turned their back on this, and Tassie got screwed.
Because it's about marketing a point of difference. This point of difference of 'cost saving' (initially, but way more in the long run) is about appealing to the less critically thinking, typically the elderly who don't, ON AVERAGE, appreciate higher speed internet. It wins votes and goes with the Libs slogans and rhetoric of 'Labor Waste' and wins them, swinging voters.
Oh here we go again. The old chestnut about the "elderly" being tech illiterate. Where do you get off bagging the elderly sport. You might be surprised to find that a large portion of this demographic are a lot more tech savvy than you give them credit for. Stick to the debate and stop picking on one part of our community. As I have said elsewhere repeatedly there are a lot more important issues to be considered in Australia than FTTP. And don't give me the BS about FTTP being able to cure illness etc. Flame away.
Because it's about marketing a point of difference. This point of difference of 'cost saving' (initially, but way more in the long run)
As I've stated before if they wanted to market a point of difference, they should've pointed out labors failings with the FTTP rollout and then done it better. But sadly they chose a different model entirely...
Oh here we go again. The old chestnut about the "elderly" being tech illiterate.
I agree with you here, there's plenty of 'elderly' who are very tech literate, just as there are plenty of 'youths' who wouldn't have a clue about anything more technical how to facebook, tweet, snapchat/etc.
But that's detracting from the point.
As I have said elsewhere repeatedly there are a lot more important issues to be considered in Australia than FTTP
There certainly are, but to ignore what's going on (in relation to FTTN being rolled out instead of FTTP) is just downright foolish. To treat it as a non-issue is exactly what the lib party want, as they know it's a big issue, why else would they have started attacking the labor plan � which hasn't even been announced yet?
The old chestnut about the "elderly" being tech illiterate
The people who designed and wrote the basic internet protocols and infrastructure are pretty much all "elderly" now.
The people who designed and wrote the basic internet protocols and infrastructure are pretty much all "elderly" now.
Vincent Cerf and Robert Kahn, who gave us the TCP/IP protocols, are now 72 and 77 respectively. Tim Berners-Lee (of HTTP fame) is a relative youngster at "only" 60 (he's younger than me, anyway :) ).
Stick to the debate and stop picking on one part of our community.
Your doing a pretty good job of that and taking stuff out of context... or trying to generate context
And don't give me the BS about FTTP being able to cure illness etc.
That wasn't mentioned at all in that post and I have never seen anyone in these NBN threads make that claim with FTTP.
FTTP provides the best enabler for practitioners and 'patients' and the best opportunity for world's best practice health care particularly in regional and remote areas where there are no practitioners...no mention of curing.
As I have said elsewhere repeatedly there are a lot more important issues to be considered in Australia than FTTP.
Luckily people can do more than 1 thing at a time.
Would you rather spend money an technology that can't guarantee a speed and doesn't provide an roi � if so why?
For the people disputing age is negatively correlated to technology usage, why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP? It's because their base don't want it and see it as a waste of money.
What is the base of the Libs? A substantial portion is older people.
Don't believe me? Google the 2013 ABC Vote Compass and you will see the results of party voted for filtered by age � over 55 year olds comprised 60% of Lib voting in that age bracket, IIRC.
For the people disputing age is negatively
It's irrelevant wether you're correct or not. What matters is the libs are rolling out FTTN, labor are rolling out 'more fiber' (no idea how much though until they announce it).
For the people disputing age is negatively correlated to technology usage, why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP?
I happen to know that one of the few owners of an NBN Gigabit connection is an elderly couple in their 70s...
Greens also want FTTP
why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP?
Because they are heavily invested in Telstra...
I happen to know that one of the few owners of an NBN Gigabit connection is an elderly couple in their 70s...
I happen to understand the concept of data collection, statistics & averages
I happen to understand the concept of data collection, statistics & averages
Then you should use that knowledge more wisely...
Then you should use that knowledge more wisely...
No, I accept reality even when it upsets my worldview
No, I accept reality even when it upsets my worldview
Good...then you should attempt to seek an actual poll or other scientific means of proving your hypothesis.
For the people disputing age is negatively correlated to technology usage, why do you think the Libs not want full FTTP?
The discussion about the age of end users of FTTP is entirely fallacious. Why?
In a nutshell... the NBN is being built for the long term, it isn't just being built for today's use. This mean the "elderly" will (crudely) kick the bucket well before the network even remotely comes to the end of its life.
FTTP provides the best enabler for practitioners and 'patients' and the best opportunity for world's best practice health care particularly in regional and remote areas where there are no practitioners...no mention of curing.
Whilst not disagreeing with the premise that FTTP is better than FTTN, telemedicine relies on upload speeds from the doctor and patient, not download speeds. Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
More important is reliability, that is what sets FTTP apart.
More important is reliability, that is what sets FTTP apart
Also the ability to operate the medical service separately from the home owner's internet service. The medical service could be provided by the government department's RSP with a much better SLA than the residential service.
Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
Nonesense. You are quite correct upload is an important issue, however, so is reliability of connection for clear constant image display ...FTTN can't upload quick enough nor guarantee consistent image without buffering ...look at many of the ABC live interviews with pollies � not one survives without some buffering. I know which I'd prefer if I was in need of remote medical treatment. Combine data base searches with image display and interactive comms ...FTTN can't do it.
Even the slowest available FTTN plans are perfectly adequate for telemedicine.
Fttn is nice and stable then?
Doesn't drop out � 10-15 times a day.
Doesn't corrode or drop out when it rains?
Has no issues???
Fttn is nice and stable then?
Doesn't drop out � 10-15 times a day.
Doesn't corrode or drop out when it rains?
Has no issues???
I referred only to the speeds. I SUPPORT FTTP.
And to answer your questions: No FTTN does not drop out 10 to 15 times per day, Even fibre connections can break down as can ISP's. FTTP will not and never will be available to the really remote areas which will depend on wireless and satellite � both inherently more unreliable than FTTN.
And, to really throw a spanner in your works, remote medicine is bullshit. It is always a short term compromise and cannot and will not replace face-to-face medical consultation. It is inherently dangerous because of the limitations of clinical interaction from a remote camera making the likelihood of an error in diagnosis many times higher than in conventional medical practice.
And, to really throw a spanner in your works, remote medicine is bullshit.
Whilst remote diagnosis might be unlikely, remote monitoring is not. For example; remote monitoring and remote contact with elderly people might allow them to stay in their own homes longer before they need to move into aged care. It doesn't require high speed but it does require high reliability and it is best delivered via a dedicated service. It could save the government billions.
remote medicine is bullshit
I'd suggest you take a little holiday and drive through some regional and remote areas in large states and visit the medical resources available � if you can find them. I say regional because even smaller and middle sized medical services in regional locations suffer fairly badly in terms of decent, repeat, decent communications. Certainly in WA these pop up a number of hundreds of kms apart and service a number of remote communities....because that is all there is. Some have little more than dial up speeds if that. They would beg for ADSL anything right now.
It is always a short term compromise and cannot and will not replace face-to-face medical consultation
Do you not appreciate the capability of a specialist in any capital city hospital on line, with a nurse on a lap top with a car crash patient in say Balgo in WA, providing guidance and expertise thanks to visual and voice communications permitting interrogation with the nurse using procedural analysis and high resolution visual examination. Decision making can be made to deal on site with the problem or to instigate Royal Flying Doctor Services. It used to be just the latter or carry huge risks with delaying expensive flights out with RFDS. Pre preparation awaiting arrival at appropriate facilities can be put in train immediately. Life and death stuff in some instances. Doesn't take long to earn its keep.....Bullshit you say???
FYI private trials have been done in WA using particular tech associated with mobile service extension and reaching out to remote farm house medical problems using laptop. It worked but you can imagine the quality of regional mobile service, much worse than Fixed Wireless or Satellite capability NBN now affords. Just FTTP at one end is a bonus.
The only thing that really stops this happening right now is quality and reliability of comms and, believe it or not, Medicare bureaucracy as to how it gets approved and paid for etc ......
Face to face is optimal for sure, but today's FTTP type tech allows getting fairly close to that ...Heard about the heart operation done remotely by a specialist in New York with the patient in Paris France......special comms was set up for that but....
I dont think this will have to happen again because FTTP is already part of the MTM
Should NBN Co be instructed by a Labor govt to change back to HFC replacement and perhaps not accept handover of copper network and remediation and maintenance deal � because it should never have happened and is so fundamentally stupid to continue � there may well be renegotiations. Having the original agreement at hand will make that a straight forward process for the most part.
Lets face it, Telstra are very adept at playing one off the other for its own financial gain and there will be a price to pay but they will play ball ..for a price. They do after all want to stay in business and as we have seen govts can have their way if tehy really want to.
It's pretty much the same speed as the MTM but it doesn't have any FTTN and it delivers a better end result. Your rationale does not support the MTM.
The MTM has the highest IRR and NBN Co says that the MTM model delivers NBN upgrades on average two years sooner to underserved areas. There will definitely be a positive impact for those going from woeful speeds (less than 1 Mbps say) to good speeds (12 Mbps).
Even on the figures in the SR scenario 4 was only $10bn more than the MTM.
That's still money that has to be found by NBN Co.
They can even use the Coalition's own figures from the SR.
Unfortunately, the Labor's policy on the NBN is incoherent. It's six weeks to an election and they still haven't presented a good plan. The Coalition's preparations at the last election was detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
LNP better economic managers myth has been well and truly blow.
Agreed...in fact this was pointed out to ME by a die-hard LNP voter friend of mine who has grown quite disgusted.
That's still money that has to be found by NBN Co
Only if the Libs remain in power...I have no problem extended the debt overhead on an infrastructure project like this. The same happened on Snowy River, the first paved highways, the Sydney Harbour Bridge, etc...
Haven't heard that, but since this is not part of the budget, they can say that they have easily fit the change into the budget...:)
Election FactCheck: does Labor have a $19.5b black hole in its funding plan?
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
Fifield has been repeatedly asking Clare about costs and timelines for ALP's NBN policy for a long time now. Clare has had nearly three years to fully expand on issues such as end-user affordability, competition, and disaggregation before privatisation. As far as I'm concerned, Clare constantly runs away from the NBN economic debate.
The MTM has the highest IRR
Compared to what? Shares in Dick Smith?
to good speeds (12 Mbps)
12/1? The download is (just) OK, the upload is woefull. Working from home with a 1Mbps upload is an excersice in pain.
six weeks to an election and they still haven't presented a good plan
Still plenty of time, besides, they've dropped a lot of hints.
detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
Can I have whatever it is your smoking?
The benefits of a quick MTM rollout out are obvious; economic benefits will be reaped sooner.
Having seen this repeated repeatedly please tell us where and what the benefits are if FTTN/MTM is in such dire straits that the govt has had to stump up $500k of taxpayers money to work out how the hell they can keep funding the nbn MTM, potentially needing to be sold off reportedly...??
Labor should tell us their plans for the NBN.
Tell Australia the details of the current nbn and then....
pointing the finger elsewhere does not change the LNP failure to inform taxpayers what they are getting and paying for and maybe writing off at great expense to them. Current offerings are little more than advertising pamphlets with ploitical platitudes and 'motherhood' statements rather than any useful detail
Election FactCheck: does Labor have a $19.5b black hole in its funding plan?
Thanks for the link...so 19.5B over a 10 year time frame.
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
Funny you should say that, since the LNP had an increase in their estimate on the nbn from $29 Billion to as much as $56 Billion...that is a $27 Billion hole, is it not?
Clare has had nearly three years to fully expand on issues such as end-user affordability
Without access to the data...you suggest he should make stuff up the way Turnbull did at the last election?
All we know is that a full NBN will cost about $80 billion.
Here we go again...stop throwing figures up without substantiation and details...I reckon lets say it will only cost $1B...there you go that is the new fact!!!!!
Last I heard Mr Bowen had to find money to help cover a reported $20 billion budget hole.
You are referring to the $20B difference created by the different assumptions made by the Dept of Treasury and Parliamentary Budgets Office..not Bowen. When they sort it out then whoever is Treasurer will elect which to choose the assumptions if they can't. We have seen quite clearly Turnbull's/NBN Cos use of assumptions to jig up preferred outcomes � this is not different.
The cost of $80 billion matters
Yes it does, but promising a $29B network and turning it into as $56B+mess doesn't in your assessment apparently?...so do the decent thing and substantiate the details of that figure otherwise repetition doesn't create a fact....might be Goebble's type tactic but transparently futile
Whatever people say about Malcolm Turnbull no one can accuse him of not working hard to sell his version of the NBN
I agree, but I see no virtue in selling a complete falsehood to the electorate.
Quite the opposite actually...
We cannot confidently say the same about Clare. I don't believe he has the same deep understanding of the digital economy as Turnbull does
All evidence to the contrary...judging by Turnbull's plans and results, it appears that he knows very little about the stuff he was investing in. The only other possibility is that he was lying on purpose and was uncaring how poorly he treated the Australian people.
No doubt there will be a fairly definitive statement with FTTP as the ultimate objective...Shorten and Clare have already said so.
It means nothing to say FTTP is the ultimate objective if they do not commit to a FTTP straight away.
Even the Coalition has said FTTP is the end game. Both parties do not want to commit to a full FTTP rollout.
All Labor is doing is handballing the FTTP ultimate objective to a future govt. in 10-15 years time then voters will forget and the current pollies have moved on.
It's expected Labor will go with FTTdp (little to rollout since heavy FTTN contracts in place) and retain HFC and maintain FTTN contracts (Shorten said they will not unwind) and say FTTP will be done in 2nd stage that will be quickly forgetten when a new generation of pollies are in power.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All Labor is doing is handballing the FTTP ultimate objective to a future govt.
Until they are able to figure out just how badly the Libs have torn up the NBN, that is all that they CAN do.
It's expected Labor will go with FTTdp
Not by me, but OK...I don't think that they have yet had time to figure out what they can do.
To make wild claims months out from an election (or any time period before they have all the facts) is just irresponsible, and should be left to folks like Turnbull and the Libs...
The MTM has the highest IRR
Even on the rubbery figures in the SR the difference between scenario 4 and the MTM is just 0.6%. That's well within the margin of error and is a price worth paying anyway given the better result.
NBN Co says that the MTM model delivers NBN upgrades on average two years sooner to underserved areas.
Exhibit 4-3 in the SR shows the difference to be a few % only. But just look at the difference in the figures for the end result!
That's still money that has to be found by NBN Co.
Given the 10 year bond rate, that's the silliest way to fund the NBNCo. The government should just come clean on the implicit debt guarantee and fund the NBNCo with equity.
Unfortunately, the Labor's policy on the NBN is incoherent.
Actually, it's unannounced. What is "incoherent" is the variation in the speculation about what it might be. That's our fault, not Labor's :)
The Coalition's preparations at the last election was detailed and released about five months before the polling date.
Yep, but they turned out to be a whole load of camel crap.
Until they are able to figure out just how badly the Libs have torn up the NBN, that is all that they CAN do
There was nothing torn up since Labor handed a mess of an nbn to the Coalition with 2/3rd or premises only able to get a connection. The first nbn connection went live in 2010 in Tassie and Labor barely reached 200K that could order a service after lots of fanfare and heaps of capital spent.
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version.
by me, but OK...I don't think that they have yet had time to figure out what they can do.
Which will not be a return to universal FTTP
The Coalition released their plan in April 2013 and the election was in September.
The fully costed plan to give us all access to 25/5 by 2016? That was to cost $29B?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
There was nothing torn up
Except a globally competitive and reliable network...
The first nbn connection went live in 2010 in Tassie
Nope...that was a test connection. The NBN went commercially live in early 2012 when the first POI was delivered and the final Telstra document was signed.
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version
You mean the FTTN idea back in 2006? True...Telstra basically indicated that the copper was too far gone to proceed. Go figure...
Which will not be a return to universal FTTP
Is that what your Magic 8-Ball says?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version.
Conroy's gone from the portfolio and hopefully his 'do it once, do it right, do it with fibre' idiocy has gone with him. I think Clare has the common sense to consider cost-effective interim solutions that deliver the most benefit to the most people in the shortest time (eg. FTTB/dp for MDUs).
Which will not be a return to universal FTTP
The Coalition (used to) talk about universal FTTP as the end game but they didn't plan for it and now they've stopped talking about it. We'll see if Labor include a plan for it in their policy.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Notice Labor never talks about its old nbn version.
Except the times when Jason Clare admitted the Labor NBN was rolling out too slow under their government.
Turnbull admit something when he's wrong? Hahahah.. never.
Except a globally competitive and reliable network...
Yup
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2531036
Reliable.
Pitiful more like it.
I can expect more of this crap happening with FTTNot working properly or at all.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
It means nothing to say FTTP is the ultimate objective if they do not commit to a FTTP straight away.
Give you the tip Zealot you don't set the rules, if there are any... fixing Turnbull's massive stuff up has its unfortunate complexities...and huge costs. Doing it right for the people of this country and the businesses they run and the schools and medical facilities is what counts � not your apparent motivation � politics
Both parties do not want to commit to a full FTTP rollout.
Wrong � LNP pays lip service and doesn't care about the massive ansd wasteful total cost of doing nbn MTM and then FTTP to replace it (as distinct from upgrade because that is not possible).
Labor has been committed from day one to the most sensible and appropriate solution FTTP...no need for re-commitment, and your demands for that are very low priority I'd suggest...
It's expected
"It's" is just what/who ...or just a convenient generalisation.... Wild assumptions again trying to masquerade as 'fact' Zealot � attempt at perception management again???
Even on the rubbery figures in the SR the difference between scenario 4 and the MTM is just 0.6%. That's well within the margin of error and is a price worth paying anyway given the better result.
That was also based on a convenient short term time frame and subsequently disparaged for that. Long term ROI is far superior for FTTP medium and long term.
Cherry picking by supporters of nbn MTM out of the highly discredited SR which has as good as been consigned to the rubbish bin is foolhardy and irresponsible.
The government should just come clean on the implicit debt guarantee and fund the NBNCo with equity
Don't think they can continue if ROI drops below threshold justifying NBN as an investment, therefore off budget loans no longer possible. It becomes an on budget taxpayer expense otherwise. One wonders if Turnbull contrived this situation through SR assumptions.
I think Clare has the common sense to consider cost-effective interim solutions that deliver the most benefit to the most people in the shortest time
I'd suggest the failure to perform by NBN Co with nbn MTM in all aspects you note would clearly justify Conroy's position to
'do it once, do it right, do it with fibre'
Because NBN Co has to find a way to recover that $80 billion cost. We don't know if Labor will be able to credibly manage that. If they can't do that then that would drive up prices.
The MTM is a complete failure. On every measure. The $1 billion a year maintenance on copper is going to cost more than the extra finance charges required on borrowing some more money.
The country cant afford NOT to do FTTP. Turnbull handing $11 billion to Telstra for corroded copper, cracked joints and busted ducts full of asbestos was probably the worst commercial decision of all time.
The MTM is a complete failure. On every measure.
Fascinating isn't it? MTM failure is the cause of a potential $80B (if that can be believed... apparently can't be substantiated ... just plucked out of thin air it seems) yet it is Labor's problem?? Screw up what you like and make it someone else's problem ... just so terrifically responsible � that's what politics has got to it seems
The benefits of a quick MTM rollout out are obvious; economic benefits will be reaped sooner. Older Australians deserve to share in all those benefits. That's why it's so important to finish the NBN as soon as possible.
There is no such thing as FINISH with the MTM roll out.
So your proposing we stop at 100Mbits (if we win NodeLotto) and thats it for this century? There is no upgrade path for FTTN.
Your idea is to roll it out the door as fast as possible, as cheap as possible, with the lowest level of service and aimed to be thrown away if you wanted something remotely better. With this mindset, I'd like to sell you something, its good for the economy (my wallet) and the environment.
At least with FTTP, the upgrades are possible, least intrusive and on demand when needed. If only the libs thought that way.
The MTM has the highest IRR and NBN Co says that the MTM model delivers NBN upgrades on average two years sooner to underserved areas. There will definitely be a positive impact for those going from woeful speeds (less than 1 Mbps say) to good speeds (12 Mbps).
If they are getting 1Mbps on ADSL/ADSL2+, then that copper is truly crap. They will not be winning any node lotto. Those drop outs that take 30 minutes � 2 hours to reconnect will be fun.
I look forward to them signing up for that and complaining. Then what will MTMco do? reroll copper to their homes?
You do realise if they had decent copper they wouldn't be on 1Mbps? they would be closer to 10-20Mbps on ADSL2+.
LOL going from 1Mbps to 12Mbps FTTN, such a leap in today's global internet race.
"MTMFailCo, FTTN dropouts included, courtesy and supplied by the dropkick Malcolm Turnbull"
https://twitter.com/Feeney4B
Taking it to the streets
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
They have been competent in choosing FTTP fibre network to 93% of Australians.
Where as the coalition plan to murder 56 Billion on FTTN .
The FTTP rollout was planned to reach approximately 93% of premises in Australia by June 2021.
The country cant afford NOT to do FTTP. Turnbull handing $11 billion to Telstra for corroded copper, cracked joints and busted ducts full of asbestos was probably the worst commercial decision of all time.
Or a decision that should be investigated by the ICAC for any corruption or vested interest connections by those making the decision and executing the decision.
The $1 billion a year maintenance on copper is going to cost more than the extra finance charges required on borrowing some more money.
Interesting point I had not previously considered.
- 15 year Government bond rate is currently 2.52%
- At $1 Billion per year, NBNco could have borrowed an extra $39.7 billion dollars for FTTP rollout costs.
Almost 40 BILLION MORE dollars could have been invested to create an FTTP based network when compared to the MTM, at no additional OPEX to NBN.
An FTTP based network provides increased capability for higher ARPU � not just through higher bandwidth plans being procured at the residential level (because they can actually achieve that connection speed), but also business grade connections could be provided with SLAs and commensurate higher charges.
Your idea is to roll it out the door as fast as possible, as cheap as possible, with the lowest level of service and aimed to be thrown away if you wanted something remotely better.
Meets the political imperative...only....bloody useless otherwise!
My point is that Labor needs to prove that they're competent.
They have � the only successful terrestrial comms in place is FTTP going by the problems FTTN is having as evidenced in FTTN threads....and it is earning the revenue, not FTTN
They can even use the Coalition's own figures from the SR.
What we do know now about the FttN assupmtions in the SR is that they are out by a factor of 2. Comparisons in the section regarding NPV benefit costed FttP to 3.6 million premises (the initial FttN footprint) at $8Billion NPV. Fttn to those premised was costed at $2Billion.
Astonishingly, FttP has remained exactly the same cost to install as claimed in the SR. There have been none of the savings that seem typical in virtually all other FttP rollouts over time (Actually I think the last CCP figure I saw was about $150 lower).
The most disturbing aspect of this to me is that that my understanding is that the actual FttP architecture has changed to one that is less flexible (certainly lower fibre counts) with less redundancy (this might be only for skinny fibre in future).
Labor can easily make a case for switching to scenario 4.
More recent articles about the cost of upgrading to DOCSIS 3.1 are calling into question the perceived benefit of HFC over FttP.
Labour had the right idea from the start. Mike Quigley (in 2012/13?) made a statement to one of the committees in response to a question about G.Fast (I have searched for the actual quote but cant find it).
It was along the lines of � PARAPHRASING 'it would be imprudent to design a national network rollout (in 2010) around technologies that are unproven and not likely to be commercially available until some time in the future
He was right then and events since merely reinforce the point.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét