been he case since day one for Turnbull
This is true and I'm reminded of the drivel and diatribe turnbull provided back around 2010 where he said that Labor were spending too much eg $31 billion for a 93 plus percent FTTH with Fixed Wireless and 3rd Gen Sat's
And his "SIX" billion dollar alternative would be much better!
So just how has this story known as Turnbull's alternative MTM network, which was $6 billion back in 2010, pan out?
Well that $6 billion then morphed into a 20 billion alternative around 2012
And then upped the stakes to $29 billion during the 2013 election!
Which again in 2014, blew out to $44 billion after the Strategic Review
And in 2015 we saw a further budgetary blow out to $56 billion for his 2nd rate piss FTTNnnnn poor alternative noodle network to nowhere!
And bugger me dead:
Now in 2016 we're hearing that due to problems with the G-NAF data the CEO is stating that a further $15 billion may be needed to deliver the mess that is Malcolm's MTM which rounds it off to an even
E I G H T Y (80) Billion Dollars!
Now I'm not sure what kind of stupid, actually promotes someone whose inability to manage projects, when they are on the public record: stating that their alternative is the best, and cheapest way to go � and in fact: we find that the exact opposite is true.
Not to mention the reality that, this is what "smart" innovative countries are doing with their copper on the world stage today!
Portuguese incumbent plans to start ripping out its legacy network next year with a view to going copper-free by 2020
http://www.totaltele.co
Writing an analysis of FTTN and FTTP (though not skinny fibre at this stage).
Currently 11 pages... Aiming for 3-5,000 words.
Comments welcome.
Any analysis that ignores 'skinny fibre' is not worth the time spent to write it.
The rollout of FttP was always intended to be an evolutionary one. As the rollout progressed productivity gains were anticipated as technological improvements from a range of areas were incorporated.
The skinny fibre trials are one such example of this. Project Fox is another.
The validity of the data being publicly presented by nbn is questionable if the information in some of the leaked documents is valid. I dont know if it is � but the questions must be asked as I have here
whrl.pl/RezO2f
and here
whrl.pl/RezQLI (note that in the FttP scenario in this example there was a potential cost associated with building a new LiC which should? be offset by a corresponding reduction in the infrastructure payments to Telstra associated with the transfer of LiC ownership.)
This is an incredibly complex infrastructure rollout which has been bastardised by politicians. Lets look at the initial statement in your analysis draft by Turnbull to Leigh Sales, which has been repeated over and over without any challenge. (you really should add the date/time)
�we will get the network completed six to eight years sooner [FTTN] than it would be under Labor's proposed method [FTTP] and $30 billion cheaper or at less expense to the Government, which makes broadband more affordable.�
This claim has been repeated ad nauseum by any coalition politician when asked any question about the NBN, and has been shown to be a ludicrous claim by the public statements by NBNco.
Now in 2016 we're hearing that due to problems with the G-NAF data the CEO is stating that a further $15 billion may be needed to deliver the mess that is Malcolm's MTM
I haven't looked into this in any detail whatsoever, but, I think the $15 billion blowout you are referring to is the change from the 2013 Strategic Review figure of ~41Billion to the more recent 'upper envelope' figure of ~$56 Billion.
Now in 2016 we're hearing that due to problems with the G-NAF data the CEO is stating that a further $15 billion may be needed to deliver the mess that is Malcolm's MTM which rounds it off to an even
E I G H T Y (80) Billion Dollars!
I think you do yourself a disservice by making these statements.
True cost of Malcolm's kill policy is 25-40 trillion by its end,
The vertigan report was staged to make it look that fibre was going to cost more than doing..
Realise this labor's policy was the peak funding for the 1st batch install and more was to be added at some later stage, you only had 1 idiot bully tacks in the room and we know who that was Turnbull..
True cost of Malcolm's kill policy is 25-40 trillion by its end,
I've commissioned a time travelling moderation bot to neutralise posts/posters like this/these before they are conceived.
E I G H T Y (80) Billion Dollars!
My ERROR(SUM) bot will be no match for posts laced with FEUD (E=error)
I haven't looked into this in any detail whatsoever, but, I think the $15 billion blowout you are referring to is the change from the 2013 Strategic Review figure of ~41Billion to the more recent 'upper envelope' figure of ~$56 Billion.
You haven't looked into this and you " think? "
You do yourself disservice by making assumptions without evidence..
My ERROR(SUM) bot will be no match for posts laced with FEUD (E=error)
There's no "Error" in the E I G H T Y billion dollar figure for turnbull and co's MTM...
This is the $15 billion blowout that Bill Morrow refers too ontop of the $56 Billion previously advised eg
NBN still grappling with inaccurate housing data
Regardless, Morrow last week claimed the uncertainty about the data accounted for the potential $15 billion variance in its peak construction budget target and the company�s inability to accurately predict its broadband technology mix for the nation.
Read more: http://www.itnews.com.au/news
Which is in ADDITION to this!
A recent report by PwC estimates that while the NBN may cost $56 billion to build
http://thenewdaily.com
To which I've added another $10 billion too whose "costs" are not attributed to MTM's existing budget however: should be eg:-
a) The cost of RSP's technical support to the rollout to resolve consumer issues which are written off to the taxpayer but not currently a cost directly to NBN
b) The cost of supplying the new electricity grid required to power the obsolete copper network both by power companies and any possible future Fttdp rollout in which consumers will have to pay the cost of supplying the electricity.
c) The additional new Tax that turnbull has imposed on the industry for rolling out NBN into new developments
d) The lost revenue and the interest thereon which hasn't eventuated as a result of 2.4 million residences not being deployed by EOF 2015 as provided in the 2012-2015 Corporate Plan which is the difference as to what was achieved in the 2016 Corporate Plan.
e) The cost of copper remediation which we are yet to see its true cost over the lifecycle of the obsolete FTTN network.
And please note that's not the end of the bad FTTNnnnn news!
/
There's now "Write Down costs" of UPTO '$50 billion on the sale of turnbulls MTM network! � which are an additional cost to the disaster currently before us!
**Noting there are; "other costs" not currently attributed to MTM which are yet to be nailed onto the masthead of his Flagship the SS Fraudband which he is responsible for commissioning! � and now finds itself wallowing about in a mire of mud of its own making with flotsam and jetsam floating around, the shot full of holes, wreck its become.
And to think that turnbull started out telling the Nation that his alternative network could be built for Six billion dollars!
And his reward for this mess!- he gets promoted to PM.
Do you have any understanding of how silly this reads?
Many of us "older generation" have experienced the internet since the 1990s, and some of us have even got past the point of believing that "playing games" is a (excuse me) grown-up indicator of what our needs are from the internet.
Sorry, the point I'm trying to make is that the younger generations see through the BS that MTM is trying to spin.
Its very hard for the older generations to understand (unless they are tech savy like yourself). They see FTTN same as FTTP, its internet yeah it works. They may even think Wifi is just as good.
Remember these are the people voting, Its not until the tide turns where the younger generations represent the majority where things may change. Maybe this election will do it. If not, you can be sure the next 4 years will be pretty much the same of this nonsense with the MTM/NBN.
The point with DSE is, again you won't find the 20-40/50s bracket getting ripped of there. They will know their prices. DSE price models preys on the 60s+. I'd imagine the MTM is always relying on this strategy, hogwash "FASTER, CHEAPER, SOONER" to pitch at those that really believe it.
Faster? Fibre technologies are stated for 80Gbps, copper? maybe 500Mbps if you win NodeLotto
Cheaper? $44billion for fibre originally, MTM currently sits at $56billion with no end in sight
Sooner? Labor had a 3 year roll out plan, I'd believe they would at least do 30-50% of it if not more. MTM ? we are in 2016 nothing much has happened.
Comments welcome.
I don't wish to be rude, but I think the "value theory" approach you are taking accepts the premise (or indeed premises :-)) the LNP and nbn� have been using to justify MTM, and effectively re-parrot's their argument. In short, there are these qualitative airy-fairy benefits of fibre vs a cold hard quantified fixed $ cost. Or in other words, you are challenging the Ergas analysis in the Vertigan report by claiming the wider economic benefits of FTTP were not properly assessed (true enough), while accepting all the other mis-leading assumptions built into that analysis as fact.
There are plenty of well established methods of quantifying value (google the Warren Buffet method) and quantitatively comparing policy/investment options. As many have argued here for years, they are (deliberately) mis-leading and (IMHO) this misdirection appears to have worked effectively in guiding your analysis. As a suggestion, I'd either:
a) adopt a more hard headed approach to quantifying the benefits of fibre vs non-fibre tech, using published/leaked data to properly value the options,
b) leave out the CPP figures and deployment rate figures entirely and do a purely qualitative analysis.
Comments welcome.
When writing a document it is first important to determine who is going to read this document. So who is your audience?
Also consider this (as guidance to help you).
A professor one time said during a lecture to us, that rubbish is not up for debate. He was referring to the fact that many people in our world throw their views into the world without any valid argument and expect that others debate on valid arguments against it. The quality that they impose on others, they do not impose upon themselves.
The Vertigan Report fits exactly this category, rubbish, no substance to it by arguments.
It is perhaps wiser to not discuss it and stick to your academic approach. Make your arguments on valid sources (which others suggested) and only simply make a separate heading at the end, before the conclusion and note that your findings on the resources result in the approach that the Vertigan Report is far from reality and you excluded it for that reason. Hard and to the point.
Debating or arguing on rubbish mostly results in confusing your own writing and dilutes what point you want to get across.
In regards to sources, I would definitely include the Fast Foward modelling of the Technical University of Eindhoven (NL).
Update on Osborne Park area with the roll-out (going to take pictures this weekend)
Opposite the road where two nodes are side by side they've installed 3 new Telstra pillars
and opposite that road (the other direction) there are another two nodes side by side which
look to be getting another three pillars behind it too.
I saw a contractor working late last night which looked to be pulling copper through to the pillars waiting to be installed?
NBN why you hiding new copper from us? We know you're rolling it out.
they've installed 3 new Telstra pillars
Well that's news to me. Installing new pillars. The only copper to be rolled out is from node to pillar.?
Yeah i'll take a photo this weekend. It's starting to look like a jungle of pillars and nodes around commercial areas using FTTN
Yeah i'll take a photo this weekend. It's starting to look like a jungle of pillars and nodes around commercial areas using FTTN
You mean some of the fraud is showing.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
You mean some of the fraud is showing.
Fraud? Good heavens, no, it's just good solid on-the-ground evidence of the several and varied reasons for MTM having successive increases in cost and with more to come, no doubt.
Post the original, by now thoroughly discredited, assertions MTM would be so much cheaper than NBN, it's now clear over time that the cost of FTTP would in fact have been comparable, with an infinitely better outcome now � and that benefit increasing over time.
A Fraudian slip in perhaps.
double post cause of slow internet
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
double post cause of slow internet
What your Net needs is the magnificent MTM � Malcolm's Terminal Mistake. Just sign on the dotted line, so whatever your needs, you'll be assured it will provide everything you could ever want.
And if you believe all those assurances about MTM, you may be interested in this nifty West Gate Bridge that I just happen to have for sale . . .
;-)
Lets imagine that labor continued with FTTP and now 93% of Oz is connected. Instead of taking about individual households being connected and enjoying the benefits of super up/down speeds. Any ideas about arguments that if 93% of Aust was FTTP connected we could do..this? Not sure if I am explaining myself correctly
Phg, realize this there is implications of delivering the farce that is FTTN and all its variants which a price that has yet to be added to the final build cost of an fttn variation network abd with the constant delays within its network delivery goal, the implication of a Trillion dollar spend is bound to happen..
they switched the figures on what it would cost to deliver fttn with what it will cost to deliver a ftth/p model
Guys just out of curiosity, I saw some contractors using some sort of suction or blowing machine in the telstra pits along the streets in my area yesterday, and in some parts of my area ive seen =OF= painted on the sidewalk, is this part of build preparation?
Let's imagine that labor continued with FTTP and now 93% of Oz is connected.
That's an interesting approach, which seems to have both advantages and a couple of drawbacks.
We can readily see some immediate benefits, such as having a truly ubiquitous national network which for the first time would let everybody here develop and use all the most advanced apps and programs. It would also break the death-grip of the ol' monopolist on our comms system, and so quickly allow us to move a couple of generations ahead of where we are now.
A drawback might be that a big feature of NBN is scalability to meet demand that won't be supplied by inferior concepts like MTM. The rises in required bandwidth are factors recognised by all except those with political or commercial reasons for denying them; such denial makes it difficult to cut through the fog of misinformation and get the facts out there.
some parts of my area ive seen =OF= painted on the sidewalk, is this part of build preparation?
Of , optical fibre?
Of , optical fibre?
Ha Ha why not confuse them somewhat , match the markings and fill in the rest of the area.
Swift1 Only By Fibre writes...
match the markings and fill in the rest of the area.
It is the odds to nothing.
You haven't looked into this and you " think? "
Fortunately aARQ has provided the link in his post immediately after yours.
http://www.itnews.com.
From the linked article:
Regardless, Morrow last week claimed the uncertainty about the data accounted for the potential $15 billion variance in its peak construction budget target and the company�s inability to accurately predict its broadband technology mix for the nation.
The link in this quote is to an August 2015 article covering the news:
NBN today said its budget will likely increase by up to $15 billion, from the planned $41 billion to between $46 billion to $56 billion, likely sitting at around $49 billion.
You do yourself disservice by making assumptions without evidence.
Just as I thought. Thinking is an amazing thing. I recommend it to everyone.
This is the $15 billion blowout that Bill Morrow refers too ontop of the $56 Billion previously advised eg
No it is not � stop spreading misinformation. There are plenty of factual reasons that can be used to promote the original NBN plan over Malcolm Turnbulls Misfeasance � nbnTM.
Edit: Adjusted MTM expansion.
Hope. Reward. Opportunity.
Part 2
Where it all went wrong. Still an interesting read into the LNP mindset though.
And I like this guy.
http://stevej-on-nbn.blogspo
http://stevej-on-nbn.blogspo
So a mate who lives in England just posted a speed test. Apparently his boss just signed up to a company called hyperoptic. 1Gb fibre optic connection for �50/month.
That's FTTB though, and they are conducting textbook cherrypicking as to deciding which buildings they want to be in. I wonder if they've done over 10 buildings yet?
The bulk of the population will still be looking to VDSL or cable for their internet access
What I am unsure about is will this trigger the "you used it, you bought it" clause (or as that already been tripped by the trials)? The current corporate plan is for ~4 million HFC premises, yet recent testimony suggests ~1.9 million LiCs in the HFC footprint are required. With roughly half of the HFC footprint requiring a LiC how does the purported $1100 capex figure withstand rational scrutiny?
Regardless if the trial tripped the condition or not, as they have committed to a June rollout of HFC for Redcliffe "on schedule" this may be a moot point. Note: by "on schedule" I actually mean "moved back three months last year" but they are "still meeting every target".
Their reviews suggested a lot less lead-ins were required and a lot of us here thought this to be suspicious. Of course they were more interested in justifying their policy direction than making an informed decision so it does not surprise me. This must certainly contribute to their budget although I remember that someone from NBN communicated that they had "optimised" the lead-in construction for (hanging) HFC lead-ins some time ago which I think was their way of getting "ahead of the issue" regardless of how true that was.
Furthermore, they have now confirmed that FTTN will be used for HFC in-fill. Considering that FTTN costs are $1600 per premises versus $1100 for HFC, this must also cut into the budget. Furthermore, this does not include the confirmation that there will be overbuild of HFC � allegedly due to MDUs not being appropriate (although I suspect this is just one of the excuses � they did not want to remind everyone about the problems with at least some parts of the Optus HFC network).
While they may have said that they are "tracking to $49 billion peak funding", the two issues above will substantially cut into their "$15 billion" margin of error and considering FTTdp is not budgeted for as yet, I can not see them staying under $50 billion now unless they are running way ahead of expected activation rates.
I saw some contractors using some sort of suction or blowing machine in the telstra pits along the streets in my area yesterday
This is because MTM sucks and blows at the same time.
What they didn't have was access to a HFC or copper network, while there was an implied commitment in the Strategic Review to utilise these technologies to rollout the nbn to the remaining ~75% of the fixed line foot print.
That's a wonderful negotiation starting point.... put yourself behind the eight ball � what NBN Co finished up with has turned to crap basically as a result of this and taxpayers are and continue to fill pockets of a privileged few with $billions it seems....
Given that the leaked MT-LFN document estimated that LNDN costs could potentially be reduced by as much as one half
and NBN Co with Morrow as CEO sprouting lies and doing everything possible to ensure FTTP costs do not get down to be competitive with other technologies and therefore meet SoE requirements � ie. engineering failure by playing favourites and Engineering failure as per what Morrow is building...poorly.
Do this sort of stuff in private enterprise and shareholders would demand a sacking....the board should, but that is as culpable as Morrow.
Now in 2016 we're hearing that due to problems with the G-NAF data the CEO is stating that a further $15 billion may be needed to deliver the mess that is Malcolm's MTM which rounds it off to an even
E I G H T Y (80) Billion Dollars!
I must have missed something. To be totally clear that extra $15B is not part of the extremely (ridiculously) broad range they threw up with top end as $56B ? That is what you are suggesting?
If so that becomes double original NBN with peak funding � which, If I'm not wrong, used market interest rates a fair bit higher than the unexpected extremely low market rates we now have had since NBN started. ie. Peak funding figure would be much lower and ROI would be greater.
when they are on the public record: stating that their alternative is the best, and cheapest way to go � and in fact: we find that the exact opposite is true.
It is a simple question for any reporter somewhere to ask the question � if your version of the NBN is costing $80B (even $56B) then how can it possibly be cheaper than the original FTTP NBN? Why is that too hard to work out?
Hi Slam
"Its very hard for the older generations to understand (unless they are tech savy like yourself). They see FTTN same as FTTP, its internet yeah it works. They may even think Wifi is just as good."
I really think you are deluding yourself here! sometimes at my obviously advanced age (your opinion) of 65, I am amazed at the total ignorance of most younger people, particularly under 35, of how the NBN or even computers actually function, sure they can play games and text or send media files to their hearts content, but the moment it stops working they are totally lost! I am forever trying to drum into them even the concept of very basic minor maintenance, of disk clean ups, disk optimisation and the need for security and backups, let alone ask them to repair or build a system, I just recently heard from a friend that his nephew (25) threw a year old high spec desktop away when it only required a new drive after his SSD suddenly expired .
I deal with a lot of older peoples systems, many of these people are old tradespeople with a great deal of common sense, it usually only takes a short time for them to understand the basics, also when they do buy electronic devices, if they aren't sure, they tend to ask someone who has a better knowledge
I saw some contractors using some sort of suction or blowing machine in the telstra pits along the streets
Sounds like what was used to clean pits out � mud and plastic bags that have disintegrated and no longer protect joints and oxidised/degenrated copper wire, rubble left by slack contractors, and maybe some asbestos if the pits are old enough. They pump water in I believe then suck it out.
Yes, I am being a bit sarcstic, but you should get the drift...
The OF would be optic fibre and may be for OF to a node....it should be copper from that node onwards.
I am amazed at the total ignorance of most younger people, particularly under 35, of how the NBN or even computers actually function
That is the level of consumerism � fork over the cash and just do what you have to do. If it fails buy another one. They are too busy to want to understand how it works they just want to use it. That is the unfortunate problem in trying to expose that failures of Turnbull's FTTN/MTM. Everything is at face value and no thought whatsoever as to cause and effect � just the utilisation of whatever it is.
That is why so many can't differentiate NBN in terms of FTTP and FTTN/MTM... of course, this govt does nothing to help them because it is not in their interest to do so politically � a huge failure in integrity and honesty to taxpayers....
The govt nor its regulatory agencies also do nothing to stop RSP/ISPs to conflate the two (as does Turnbull and NBN Co) in their advertising and charge marginally less for FTTN/MTM than FTTP yet deliver so much less and certainly diminished value for money than existed previously. There is little difference between pre NBN level of service and what FTTN/MTM is currently delivering yet the price of equivalent plans would be about $20+ (+40%?) more now � its criminal!
They pump water in
they flood the copper? Ill take a photo of the OF markings tomorrow
they flood the copper? Ill take a photo of the OF markings tomorrow
Flush it out by flooding it and sucking out the residue. Works wonderfully well with FTTP but then again its not copper...as you suggest its not smart to flood copper. Nor is it smart to continue to build an NBN with more copper that can get flooded and cause the usual degradation of network level of service so common with the existing network.
I did say it seemed like the FTTP method not that that is what is happening in your situation....
http://www.stanlay.com/cable-blowing-machine.html
It sounds like it's one of these perhaps?
It sounds like it's one of these perhaps?
No different, this one was white with a large maroon hose
must have missed something. To be totally clear that extra $15B is not part of the extremely (ridiculously) broad range they threw up with top end as $56B ? That is what you are suggesting?
Yes it appears that there is now another UPTO $15 billion blowout ontop of the already $56 billion for MTM due to G-NAF data disparities in a whole range of metric's which I might add were identified by Mike Quigley, with a number of cost increases allowed for with respect to a larger rollout in the 2012-2015 Corporate Plan..
However with respect to the "revenue" disaster we see emerging with NBN[tm] it seems the take up rate for FTTN services has taken a Kamakaze nose dive with the inadvertent comment by the CEO Bill Morrow at the Inquiry into the NBN recently where he said and I quote!
I would further point out that the team advanced subsequent steps in the process that were not related to power to shorten the cycle time of these steps, thereby, again, giving us the assurance of meeting or exceeding our corporate plan target.
We now have nearly 250,000 premises ready for service across our FTTN footprint, with over 30,000 active end users.
So with all the whohar, a whole department working on getting the message out on getting connected, PR stunts all over the place, news articles etc and so forth!
It seems after 6 months the take up rate is around 12 percent.
Which is not and pardon the pun � lighting anyone's lights up, is it!
Broadband will never be any good until govs start treating it as a utility like water and electricity.
Yes it appears that there is now another UPTO $15 billion blowout ontop of the already $56 billion for MTM due to G-NAF data disparities
No it isn't. Your own links make it clear. Refer here whrl.pl/ReAdIN
No it isn't. Your own links make it clear. Refer here whrl.pl/ReAdIN
Quigley acknowledged the same problem of outdated data bases, yet that didn't lead to a $15b blowout in his costings..
When Morrie took it over, he should have been well aware of this problem. It was inherited, yet he still managed to blow out budget by $15b .
Isn't their corporate plan update well overdue? I guess it won't be released until after the election now.
/cynic
Quigley acknowledged the same problem of outdated data bases, yet that didn't lead to a $15b blowout in his costings..
Well, I think one of the things that NBN Co's previous management don't get enough credit for was the programs that they ran to find more efficient ways of rolling out fibre, which was how they didn't have to raise the cost of the project as contractor costs went up, etc. Projext Fox was just a normal part of this improvement process, similar to what we saw in NZ with their UFB and in the US with FiOS � the cost per premises dropped as they made it more efficient.
So perhaps much of the cost with the inaccuracy of the address data was made back from the FTTP network design improvement programs (i.e the cost for the extra surveying they had to do).
An interesting aside on the first point though � perhaps this is one of the things that confused Malcolm Turnbull � remember how he seemed certain that NBN Co were fudging figures and cooking the books, and ordered a 'forensic audit' into their figures. Which turned up exactly zero material issues. (While he loudly talked about commissioning the report, it's release was almost completely silent, because it didn't match the narrative).
I think that just is a testament of just how effective the previous management were at managing costs. They said that they'd managed to mitigate all the contractor's price rises and costs of delays, and their accounts backed them up completely.
Of course, the fact that FTTP was meeting its revenue targets despite the delays and was seeing surprisingly fast takeup probably helped a bit � it's a shame that FTTN will likely fail on both those counts.
I know it probably doesn't make any difference, but I emailed my local member, Julie Bishop ;-( to express my increasing anger with the LNP FTTN policy.
I got the usual ' we'll pass your message on to the Minister'.
Here's the list of emails in case you haven't sent a 1 liner to your MP.
http://www.aph.gov.au/senato
I think that just is a testament of just how effective the previous management were at managing costs. They said that they'd managed to mitigate all the contractor's price rises and costs of delays, and their accounts backed them up completely.
Absolutely
It seems after 6 months the take up rate is around 12 percent.
That's well below FTTP takup and not surprising really because, well, what does MTM really deliver to customers different from what they had previously on ADSL? other than to pay more for much the same as they got now. Paul Murray in today's Saturday West Australian newspaper (normally well to right ) wrote ..."the tactics he adopted this week are those of a slick lawyer with an eye for the fine print of contracts not those of a statesman..." It is this 'fine print' factor that is killing NBN because the objective is not delivering a proper product to consumers but fullfilling a political agenda via smokescreens and thre thimble tricks and business makes more money because we pay more for less.
Pay more for less, both in the sense that FTTN/MTM delivers little more for the massive expense and FTTP would deliver so much for much the same cost ...if not less. We will pay more tax to get it right eventually if it happens at all.
Malcolm Turnbull � remember how he seemed certain that NBN Co were fudging figures and cooking the books, and ordered a 'forensic audit' into their figures. Which turned up exactly zero material issues.
The real point of the forensic audit was to set the benchmark for ridiculous assumptions to massively inflate FTTP costings and blow out delivery timings to make FTTN/MTM look acceptable. Finding flaws would have been a bonus but that failed as you rightly note. An example of ridiculous assumptions was Australia would not need more than 15Mb/s by 2020, when the rest of the world were vigorously pursuing far far more.... makes MTM limitations quite a lot more palatable (arguable) for the uninformed and unsuspecting trusting public.
An example of ridiculous assumptions was Australia would not need more than 15Mb/s by 2020,
At the same time promoting docis 3 GB speeds.
Isn't their corporate plan update well overdue? I guess it won't be released until after the election now.
Oh, it'll definitely be released before the election.
But the usual caveat applies � before which election?
Remember that we're still waiting to see the fully planned and costed MTM proposal Turnbull was claiming before the last election to have ready for release.
At the same time promoting docis 3 GB speeds.
yes, all designed to confuse and bamboozle all and sundry starting with the few "questioning media" and then on to the general public
much the same as all the marketing associated with packaged food
"New, improved" if you are lucky, they just changed the package design, but usually they have either reduced the amount of product, or lowered the quality of all ingredients.
New improved MTM, show 3 Gbps speeds on ads but struggle to deliver 50Mbps to the majority
Remember that we're still waiting to see the fully planned and costed MTM proposal Turnbull was claiming before the last election to have ready for release.
AAaaahhhh!! but do remember he wasn't talking about NBN Plan per se but that he had 'A' Plan ready to go....and fully costed.
That plan was for the destruction of FTTP and the fulfillment of his political agenda, nothing else, certainly not build the NBN It took over two years to begin to enunciate that... and even then he failed to do that with any definitive detail.
much the same as all the marketing associated with packaged food
Yes, that's exactly the marketing spin widely applied to groceries, and now being used with a vengeance in marketing the MTM melange.
First the packaging is changed � so references to MTM become nbn�;
Then we are told the product package is cheaper � though the contents and quality have been reduced much more than the price;
And finally there is promotion of the 'unsolicited' testimonials � happy smiling faces declaring the new product is so much better than the old one.
When Morrie took it over, he should have been well aware of this problem. It was inherited, yet he still managed to blow out budget by $15b .
I have no argument with that. I simply try to point out inaccurate claims when they are made.
If someone on this thread makes a claim in support of MTM (regardless of the facts) there are numerous posts in response to refute/correct it, generally way before I get to it, making a response from me redundant although I do sometimes add my 2 cents regardless.
People read threads like these to become better informed. Allowing inaccurate claims against MTM to go unchallenged doesn't help in the regard.
Bring that claim up in a discussion/argument with someone who is informed and you will be easily dismissed.
So, 2.8milpa for 3 years to connect up how many FTTN premises?
No, that's bonus for demolition of the Nbn.
Does anyone know how he got a bonus? He hasn't met any of the rollout targets.
Does anyone know how he got a bonus? He hasn't met any of the rollout targets.
that is precisely how he got it
Does anyone know how he got a bonus?
He is Malcolm's mate and has been able to hide and officiate that the copper rehash is great hiding the real state of fraudband and its costs.
When Morrie took it over, he should have been well aware of this problem. It was inherited, yet he still managed to blow out budget by $15b .
Actually the LNP's faster cheaper and more affordable alternative IS $50 Billion dollars over Malcolm Turnbull's original estimate for his alternative network/
This is an indisputable fact as written by Malcolm himself!
On the other, the $6bn Coalition plan will fix those parts of Australia's broadband infrastructure where intervention is justified: increasing competition in the main networks that link towns and cities and subsidising faster connections in poorly served suburban, regional and rural areas
So let's not hear any more of the nonsense that turnbull's alternative is only $15 billion dollars over budget as this is just a nonsense.
Guys, just a rehash of something I've been saying to others.
Forget about nitpicking about delays and exact costings. Most people are aware that the "Liberal version of the NBN" isn't cheap. Most people can't conceive of numbers with 8 digits anyhow. Just call it "tens of billions".
The way to win this campaign starts with two simple but connected messages.
Firstly, copper is obsolete and the rest of the world is now building fibre � not just in places like Singapore, but in a lot of poorer and even "third world" countries.
If we are to succeed we need to destroy the notion that Turnbull's "cheaper" NBN is a replacement for fibre. Its obsolete before its built and we need to crank it up. The best way to do that is by comparison with the rest of the world. That gives you lots of chances for simple visuals. The punters will get it.
Secondly, what is obsolete and has to be replaced, is wasted money. It doesn't matter if its "cheap", but by all means use the phrase "tens of billions" wherever you can. People understand simple value propositions. You spend tens of billions (on a road say) if it lasts 50 years or more. You don't spend that kind of money on something that is temporary. And that's precisely what Turnbull is doing.
That's it. A two phase campaign. Establish that fibre is the future and anything else is waste. Then educate people that tens of billions of wasted temporary network can be avoided by voting for Labor.
Thirdly and perhaps more importantly. Its vital to make the MTM scandal widely known because it reflects on Turnbull, his arrogance and incompetence. Weakening Turnbull's standing as a "speaker of truth" will cost the Liberals more votes than the direct effect of people voting for future proof technology.
This needs everyone here to stop doing petitions, stop nit picking on the details and focus on the campaign outlined above. Forget the Liberal politicians. Even the ones that aren't right wing nut jobs are well trained and usually clueless. Instead put pressure on Labor politicians. Pressure them to put some of their campaign resources into those two points above. The rest of the world moving to fibre and the Liberals wasting tens of billions. (And Turnbull being right in the centre of this scandal).
The way to win this campaign starts with two simple but connected messages.
I don't think the average punter knows/cares about the copper vs fibre debate. IMO, it's simpler to relate it in terms of speed. Right now, most ADSL users get about "10" (Mbps, but the unit is irrelevant to the debate). Turnbull and Abbott have said "25" is all you'll need � their version of NBN will give most people at best "100" if you are close to the node. Using the same version that Labor's proposed, other countries are already getting "10000" and above. MT's version has turned out not to be cheaper � faster is better � what would you rather have ?
My 9yo says ping (latency) is more important than speed for his tablet, smartphone or desktop gaming.
Even when the internet is slower during peak hours (Optus HFC 100/2), the speed is currently not a problem. It's the increased latency during peak periods that is more of an issue.
. MT's version has turned out not to be cheaper � faster is better � what would you rather have ?
For the same money? Fibre is supreme.
What copper Zealot's don't understand is that besides fttn bringing less than half the revenue of Fibre, it's also going to have to be overbuilt with fibre on completion of the Nbn.
what would you rather have ?
I want min 1000, uncontended, unmetered, unthrottled up/downloads.
I want it within 12 months and I want it to cost no more than $59.95 / month.
ping (latency) is more important than speed for his tablet
That's possibly true if you're not moving much data. If I "ping" some site using a 56K dial up modem, the response time may well be not a whole lot different on a faster line, as a ping packet is bugger all, but I guarantee your 9yo won't be playing any games on 56K line � even with smart graphics algorithms only sending delta frames, faster is always better.
I want min 1000, uncontended, unmetered, unthrottled up/downloads.
I want it within 12 months and I want it to cost no more than $59.95 / month.
I'm prepared to pay $100pm
I want it within 12 months and I want it to cost no more than $59.95 / month
Don't we all � but let the market work that one out. Turnbull and Abbott saying 25Mbps is all you need seems to me like they think we're living in Commie Russia where the State decides what you'll get � why not build a network which allows the market to determine what people are prepared to pay.
I hereby call fibre to the node... Copper to the node
let it be done
*waves turnbull's magical wand*
I don't think the average punter knows/cares about the copper vs fibre debate. IMO, it's simpler to relate it in terms of speed.
Most punters don't have a brain that comprehends large numbers. They don't understand speed, or if they do, they don't understand scale and the thing called exponential growth. Those sold on FTTN have a vague notion that its "fast enough" without understanding its immediate obsolescence.
The core lie behind Turnbull's MTM is that it avoids spending on fibre. Underlying that is the lie that we can use VDSL for years and decades to come.
If you want to know what works well in a TV campaign (or even a social media one), its using imagery people can understand. Not abstract numbers. A simple picture that shows the rest of the world is building fibre. All this "green" over here, and here is Australia depicted in red. Scenes showing ordinary life in poorer countries. Cut to their fibre optic connections.
Turnbull and Abbott have said "25" is all you'll need � their version of NBN will give most people at best "100" if you are close to the node
I agree. But this is too much detail for a campaign. Its simpler to give people an idea of how other people are doing better. By all means have interviews of young upcoming engineers trying to do their jobs and being frustrated uploading over FTTN. And add "This person would be more productive if we hadn't wasted billions on Turnbull's temporary network".
But the key to all of this is a simple message. Fibre is inevitable. Fibre is the ONLY future. If you can't communicate this core message to people then Turnbull can always get away with the subliminal message that yeah fibre is cool but we won't need it for a long long time.
Its once you bring home the immediacy of the obsolescence of the MTM that you can then sell the message that these tens of billions are being wasted. And its Turnbull's fault.
Ordinary people do get the simple value proposition that its worth spending tens of billions on something that will last. They just need a little help understanding that there is only one future proof technology and showing how the rest of the world is moving to fibre is what will make this point in its most simple and emotionally connected way.
For the same money? Fibre is supreme.
What copper Zealot's don't understand is that besides fttn bringing less than half the revenue of Fibre, it's also going to have to be overbuilt with fibre on completion of the Nbn.
The point about the MTM having less revenue is worth arguing with the engaged. That's why its important to have web sites with these sorts of details so people can refer to. However, for the majority of people, all they need to understand is that the tens of billions Turnbull is spending is wasted money. Its temporary. And if you need proof just look at the rest of the world.
Heck, even New Zealand started doing this years ago and then gave it up. That alone is worth a 30 second slot.
There's lots of stories like that out there in the world. Third world countries. Former Soviet bloc countries. Places that most people look down on. All getting the future. Jealousy is a powerful emotion.
I hereby call fibre to the node... Copper to the node
let it be done
*waves turnbull's magical wand*
You need better terms for the sake of the campaign. "The LIberal NBN" vs "The real NBN" or "Labors NBN" for a start.
There's also the "Multi Technology Mistake", or "Malcom Turnbull's Mistake" where appropriate.
I prefer to simply call it "Turnbull's obsolete Network".
The key message is waste. And its important to slate it home to Turnbull. Labor can win the election and the NBN is an important issue, not so much in terms of it being a big shiny new thing, but in terms of the waste and incompetence reflects poorly on Turnbull himself. Arrogance, incompetence. Voters react to that.
And finally there is promotion of the 'unsolicited' testimonials � happy smiling faces declaring the new product is so much better than the old one.
yeah, probably got lifetime free internet. Sold there soul for a hand full of rubbish. Bloody mugs.
Turnbull's standing as a "speaker of truth" will cost the Liberals
the man couldn't lay straight in bed, he's got more twists than a barley sugar stick.How could any body of sane mind and a pinch of common sense ever come up with this stupid idea of FTTN he needs locking up.
the man couldn't lay straight in bed, he's got more twists than a barley sugar stick.How could any body of sane mind and a pinch of common sense ever come up with this stupid idea of FTTN he needs locking up.
Sadly a lot of people still do trust Turnbull. He comes across to many people as accessible, knowledgeable and trustworthy. Yes, its all an act. And yes he does have a dodgy past (google "Turnbull rainmaking" or "Turnbull HIH dodgy" just for a start).
However, to convince people that Turnbull has done the dodgy on the NBN means first a campaign that shows how fibre is the future and what Turnbull has done is spend tens of billions on something temporary.
Don't forget there have been plenty of Liberal fanboys here on WP that when challenged will construct complex arguments about how usage growth will stall or they will somehow pretend that the MTM will be around for many years. Or they simply dodge the issue entirely. They can do so because its not known generally to the voting public that the rest of the world is moving to fibre. They can do so (and Turnbull can continue with his fundamental lie) because most ordinary punters don't grasp just how temporary Turnbull's "solution" is. That starts with simple, powerful imagery. And the best angle is comparing us to the rest of the world.
I want min 1000, uncontended, unmetered, unthrottled up/downloads.
I want it within 12 months and I want it to cost no more than $59.95 / month.
Move to Singapore...sorry, that was AUD$67.89/month...but close.
You could always go for the 10Gbps connection up/down unlimited for $180/month
I want min 1000, uncontended, unmetered, unthrottled up/downloads.
I want it within 12 months and I want it to cost no more than $59.95 / month.
That will happen. Pity you voted Liberal and put it back years.
Allowing inaccurate claims against MTM to go unchallenged doesn't help in the regard.
Have you ever had experience working on Telstra's copper network.?
If so surely you will admit that using the copper network for the NBN is a waste of money .
Firstly, copper is obsolete and the rest of the world is now building fibre
Secondly, what is obsolete and has to be replaced, is wasted money.
put pressure on Labor politicians. Pressure them to put some of their campaign resources into those two points above.
Let's say you're right ungulate. The problem is that there will be no external pressure on Labor. Mainly because most people just want the NBN finished. Nobody agrees that changing the NBN's direction again will be of any benefit. I can't really see any way around that problem.
most people just want the NBN finished. Nobody agrees that changing the NBN's direction again will be of any benefit.
Hey Kingy,
although the views of "most people" and "nobody" are bloody important, what about the views of Telstra, News Corp, Singtel/Optus, Vodafone & TPG.
Surely their views are pretty heavily weighted, when it comes to decision making by the Government of the day?
If changing the direction of NBN were to result in a slowing down of some of the digital threats to some organisation's legacy business models (retail/media etc etc), surely that would benefit some organisations, their shareholders/owners, employees and customers and their families?
What d'ya reckon Kingy?
I want min 1000, uncontended, unmetered, unthrottled up/downloads.
I want it within 12 months and I want it to cost no more than $59.95 / month.
I suggest you check what Turnbull's offering has resulted in... none of your requirements can be met starting with up to 25 advertised by ISPs for $79.95/mth.... because unless you move to an existing FTTP area you will never get it. Sorry!
Mainly because most people just want the NBN finished.
I also want it finished properly.
Mainly because most people just want the NBN finished.
Correct, we do, and the first stop to achieving that is to get the NBN rollout going again.
Nobody agrees that changing the NBN's direction again will be of any benefit.
You are contradicting yourself � you can't say that finishing the NBN is desirable but changing the direction (from winding down to rolling out) is undesirable.
Mainly because most people just want the NBN finished. Nobody agrees that changing the NBN's direction again will be of any benefit. I can't really see any way around that problem.
oohh diddems Kingy ....you have a very depressive circle of friends it seems and a very small one, plus you totally ignore anything other than your own posts here obviously as 99% disagree ...but then, Whirlpoolians are nobodies eh? ... unless they agree with you.
Repeat after me...A change to a Labor govt will return NBN to FTTP ..... sooner , faster, and cheaper than MTM....because that is the fact.
Repeat that to yourself a thousand times, and then come back to the forum....
Interesting reading from the Aust. Institute of Engineers:
https://www.engine
Don't know if this posted elsewhere.
Telstra, News Corp, Singtel/Optus, Vodafone & TPG.
Surely their views are pretty heavily weighted, when it comes to decision making by the Government of the day?
Voter opinions carry more weight. That's why I'm trying to look at it from the whirlpool's point of view. I agree with ungulate that pressure needs to be put on the Labor. But the reality is that there isn't any public appetite to radically change the MTM.
But the reality is that there isn't any public appetite to radically change the MTM.
Is this your opinion or do you have proof ?.
You are contradicting yourself � you can't say that finishing the NBN is desirable but changing the direction (from winding down to rolling out) is undesirable.
I don't see the contradiction. There is no popular solution on a practical way to improve the MTM. With no clear alternative it's natural for people to gravitate towards the status quo.
Is this your opinion or do you have proof ?.
Break your duck .
You have never answered a question I have put to you.
I don't see the contradiction.
LOL
There is no popular solution on a practical way to improve the MTM.
Wrong, the popular solution has been the same since before the election � to switch back to the NBN.
With no clear alternative it's natural for people to gravitate towards the status quo.
You keep claiming there's no alternative, but if you actually read or listen to what is coming from Labor instead of claiming it doesn't exist you might actually learn something.
It's far easier to keep sinking money into NBN it by labelling the money as an equity investment.
The sh*t will hit the fan when it's put up for sale and the bean counters tell the Govt that they have $60b of 'equity' in a company that's only worth $20b. There will be a 'capital reconstruction' which is accountant speak for Mr and Mrs Taxpayer gets screwed for $40b.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out. If it was an FTTP network, investors will buy it because they see a future in it and that it will be around for the next 50+ years.
The fact that MTM flapped it up and used last centuries technology, tell me how attractive this is. This is the sole decision that you can bank on which has wiped off 10s � 40s of billions off the value of the original NBN project.
No one will want to buy the copper network, maybe telstra but at a fire sale price. You can kiss goodbye to any innovation and competition in this country for many generations to come.
When the whole world moves on to 10Gbps, 40Gbps, 80Gbps we will still be stuck on 25Mbps. They will be enjoying benefits of this infrastructure we will never see. We will never be able to sell any real services to overseas countries (without paying the Telstra tax, with SME/Enterprise grade connections). These other countries all FIBREing up are building enterprise grade / unlimited capacity networks to peoples homes.
MTM is a practical solution to the problem of how to deliver a more reliable data service + a meaningful speed increase to existing dwellings in a timeframe that's not measured in geological ages.
No the MTM is a political response to a technical aspect of an economic policy.
I'm referring to Conroy's monotonically increasing costings that ended up somewhere north of $40b by the time Rudd got the A.
So how do you feel about it now being $56b cost under the current government with an inferior network?
Bear in mind also that the $56billion figure is not factoring in the cost-shifting they have employed.
the Policy Turnbull polished this turd for came from nbn mk1 which had its knock-back, back when Howard was in his 1st term the reason that was given it would be too costly to implement.
So the coalition declared FTTN was a poor investment nearly 20 years ago. No doubt they love tradition, and you can't get much more traditonal than resurrecting what even then was clearly very dumb policy, and acting as if it will be good for 100 years or so.
It may sound a bit harsh, but the words Lipstick on a Pig come to mind.
And memorably, one coalition senator got it exactly right then, when she described FTTN as Fraudband.
It may sound a bit harsh, but the words Lipstick on a Pig come to mind.
When you look at what the copper is held together by.
Plastic bags from as far back as 2008 and "paper insulated unit twin" PIUT. Someone might know if power to individual pits can be turned off to allow work in waterlogged pits.
I don't recall saying that I support all LNP policies.
MTM is a practical solution to the problem of how to deliver a more reliable data service + a meaningful speed increase to existing dwellings in a timeframe that's not measured in geological ages.
That's one LNP failed policy for starters which you clearly support against all facts with absolute vagueries
More reliable service ? All Experts say FTTP is far more reliable than FTTN/MTM and it costs about the same � which is the smarter thing to do? Which is more reliable?
Meaningful speed increase? For much the same cost you can get, in stark contrast to up to 25Mb/s in the next few years, FTTP capable of delivering now 1Gb/s and 160Gb/s in not too distant future (what is MTM limits?)
TImeframe? delay after delay with MTM is slipping that back to FTTP timetable (even the exaggerated one) but look what each delivers �
You are smart enough surely to work out how bad LNP policy is short and long term � you are on a loser on all bets....
somewhere north of $40b by the time Rudd
Give me a bill of ~$40B anytime compared to $56B for total rubbish � sunk asset...
Events since then suggest that they've little intention of doing much to enable it, given the financial and bureaucratic barriers to fibre extension that have been created.
LNP, Turnbull and current NBN Co top dogs can't afford to be proven wrong in the field hence the obstacles and hinderences to make sure they won't happen � Clayton's options...
rather than an anonymous commentator on WP who can trot out any old rubbish with no consequences.
Take a look in the mirror please... present facts and someone may believe your posts...
They're geeks, who just want the latest and greatest technology (that may not even exist yet), without knowing why they want it, or what they're going to do with it.
Actually I work in medical IT. Boosting the hospital at home programs was one of the areas I have been involved in. I have also been involved in � whole range of items in this and other spaces, DIRECTED at reducing the cost of doing business. In the case of health, there is a direct link to the reduction of the cost of delivering healthcare.
Ordinary folk, believe that spending money on health, education, law enforcement, looking after the homeless, etc is more important than spending money on fibre broadband.
Those informed, know that broadband is a foundation layer of most of these efforts. Investing in advanced broadband can reduce the cost and improve the outcomes of delivering health and education. These two items address all the items in your list.
The sh*t will hit the fan when it's put up for sale and the bean counters tell the Govt that they have $60b of 'equity' in a company that's only worth $20b.
That is exactly what the MTM farce will accomplish.
There will be a 'capital reconstruction' which is accountant speak for Mr and Mrs Taxpayer gets screwed for $40b
That is the cost of having such an eminent person as Mr Turnbull as our PM. He was happy to pay that to further his career.
Take a look in the mirror please... present facts and someone may believe your posts...
Amazing how some think they can take us for absolute mugs and take the piss.
To support a fraud such as the MTM.
I've yet to see one pro MTM supporter convince anyone here that its the way to go.
Not one person so far is convinced and yet they still bother to push their barrow full of fraud.
t doesn't take a genius to figure out. If it was an FTTP network, investors will buy it because they see a future in it and that it will be around for the next 50+ years.
Antique road show wouldn't even want to touch the MTM network.
:0>
There is nothing you can defend about a policy that involves spending tens of billions on something that will have to be replaced at further cost.
+10000000
Give me a bill of ~$40B anytime compared to $56B for total rubbish � sunk asset...
I if the bill did come in at $56B it would still be better then the crap they are rolling out.
At least, it would be an asset what we are now putting in is akin to a used car headed for the bloody wreckers.
Not one person so far is convinced and yet they still bother to push their barrow full of fraud
Actually a certain US/UK ex aussie media baron is pretty stoked.
Not one person so far is convinced and yet they still bother to push their barrow full of fraud.
Thats Because an election is coming up. They are desperate to hold power,..Losing the election could well and truly expose their fraud
Thats Because an election is coming up. They are desperate to hold power,..Losing the election could well and truly expose their fraud
Be looking forward to it. Can't wait to see heads roll. :0>
Actually a certain US/UK ex aussie media baron is pretty stoked.
Apart from a few exceptions. They deserve to have their thumbs screwed off as well.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If someone believes they need FTTH then they gotta fork out the Cheque book.
Cheque book is open. Who will take my money?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
When people and come and go they would very likely prefer to go
Wireless, a lot easier than fixed line when changing addresses.
Yeah, as long as they don't actually want to use the internet much at all � for luddites or those with access to fixed line internet elsewhere, it can be fine.
FTTN will suffice the vast majority of user
According to Raoul...
If someone believes they need FTTH then they gotta fork out the Cheque book.
So you're still a fan of the Turnbull "move to get better broadband" suggestion, are you?
Ha this is why Turnbull doesn't want NBN to be spoken about on Q&A.
But after attempting to explain why the roll out wasn�t perfect and how he�d rather have slow internet now and a system that wasn�t perfect rather than nothing for five years, the panellists began to really fire up.
Noticing the tension both on the panel and in the audience the Q&A host then asked Labor MP Ed Husic what he thought about it all.
�We will have an ideas boom after we get through the buffering basically,� he said as the audience clapped.
According to Raoul...
Glad such people can make the ultimate decision on my behalf.
I don't have to think for myself.
Just spend a shite load of dosh every month for mundane internet access.
For the likes of Raoul and others can shove their FTTN where the sun has never shined.
Seems like reliable and fast internet access will give them an allergic reaction of some sort and that's why they are against it.
They must love pissing away money on lousy internet access.
No wonder our country is a freaking joke.
https://twitter.com/renailem
This made me laugh
This made me laugh
Yeah well Steve Baxter needs to get with the times. "Aint my first rodeo" His one of the guys who swallows lies hook line and sinker
If you can only get 30mbit on a 100mbit plan because of high CVC charges then why would you pay for 100mbit?
The ignorant would, and do, and then complain when they get sub-ADSL2 performance. What you're talking about has nothing to do with technology, it's all about NBN's pricing policy.
Honestly thought he had a brain.. Guess I was proven wrong
Yeah well Steve Baxter needs to get with the times.
I couldn't be bothered with twitter. Someone just tell him that innovation in the gaming industry needs better internet for a start. You cannot stream a game with ADSL. You need at a bare minimum 5 times the upload that ADSL offers. So Mr Sharktank, streaming a game = marketing it so ergo how do you market?
Clown.
This made me laugh
As for the the LNP's policy of providing HFC as part of their policy which imo is like selling "ice" to eskimo's given they already have it available through either Telstra or Optus!
And given the comments provided by NBN in support of the MTM model that the public were happy with what was being provided? which frankly is a nonsense!
Just what IS the "customer" perspective between for example HFC and FTTH.
Well lets look at that perspective in America where Verizon provide their FTTH network and compare it against EoL (End of Life HFC)
https://www.youtube.com/watc
Obviously the LNP don't want to face the reality assoicated with the litany of ongoing issues that EoL has and will continue the plague the obsolete technology as provided here!
and
The ignorant would, and do, and then complain when they get sub-ADSL2 performance. What you're talking about has nothing to do with technology, it's all about NBN's pricing policy.
Uh no. Its about giving world class internet to everyone and give them a choice on their plans, actually DELIVER said speeds without problems and keeping up with the rest of the world. Not giving people the choice to pay for 100Mbps so they can take their money and not give what people pay for. If I pay for 100Mbps I expect 100 Mbps and not "Up To" which a lot of ISPS don't say when you talk to them unless you ask the right questions. I also would expect to have no drop outs caused by bloody congestion because they didn't expect the amount of people they are forcing to transfer to be so high!
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Wireless, a lot easier than fixed line when changing addresses
You're not thinking it through...
1. The average download amount in Oz back in 2013-2014 was 58GB/month...and it is increasing by 33% or more per year. What is the average cap on mobile downloads?
2. With FTTP, once they become ubiquitous, it becomes just a plug and play to change addresses. RSPs can turn on internet and phone within a few minutes... I agree that its not there yet, but it will be very soon as that is a key feature of the design.
FTTN will suffice the vast majority of users, currentlymajority of users are on 25MB or below
I don't think you understand the difference between peak hypothetical and average speeds...in addition, 20% of the users (according to Telstra) are on phone-only, and that is listed as 12/1. This skews the access numbers significantly making the average connection speed much greater than 25Mbps.
Hopefully Q & A will finally take notice of the amount of interest that was demonstrated at the end of the show to host a show just on the NBN. There is plenty of scope to bring in some decent panellists (Paul Budde, Mark Gregory et. al.) and get the real facts out about the NBN. Its the biggest infrastructure project Australia has seen with tens of billions of dollars at stake. Q & A have allocated a lot of time to a lot less important topics.
Hmmm � I'm not sure T.Jones et al could be that Innovative!
It would require at least a double length session and at least a Concert Hall to accommodate the crowd wanting to vent.
NBN policy = MTM policy
That is a complete lie.
Seconded. The current government tried so hard to separate themselves from the original NBNco. Instead of NBNco its NBN. And every time they use NBN they usually mention MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
FTTN will suffice the vast majority of users, currentlymajority of users are on 25MB or below.
Which is the default speed which RSPs do not disclose very clearly to consumers when ordering. Also download speeds are one issue but upload speeds are a bigger issue, 5 Mbps isn't enough for online cloud applications and backups. Good luck uploading your cad files.
People have been willing to pay for FTTP but NBN Co keeps moving the goal posts to make it as impossible to get.
Also if on the FTTN, good luck getting the speed you want. No one knows what their line is capable of, and you will have a few who can't get speeds any greater than 25 Mbps (even if they're willing to pay more).
Yeah well Steve Baxter
So called. #Entrepreneur, #investor, tech #startup, mentor
And has no clue what the real NBN can actually do.
People have been willing to pay for FTTP but NBN Co keeps moving the goal posts to make it as impossible to get.
Especially when they say "hey its $3000 just to see if its viable and then oh we need another 5000 to do it IF your eligible for it." If not its "Oh i'm sorry your not eligible, we will just be keeping your money for ourselves to use by continuing to lie to the public"
Originally we were sold the house and land package with a "Fibre Connection" and I still have the brochures stating this from the builder.
This should probably have its own thread.
I am drafting a letter to Peter Dutton / NBN, Turnbull and Fifield.
Forget every single one of those clowns, and take the brochure you mentioned to a (good) solicitor. Sue the builder/developer.
take the brochure you mentioned to a (good) solicitor.
Incorrect representations before a Contractual Agreement was signed?
You wouldn't have bought the block if you wouldn't get fibre, right?
Given v CV Holland Holdings Pty Ltd (1977) 15 ALR 439 � A representation is false if it is not correct, even if it is not false to the knowledge of the person making it. The intention to mislead is irrelevant to the fact that it has mislead the buyer and causes damage.
Disclaimer, no legal advice get your own lawyer. ACCC knows all about that one. Oh wait, they don't.
This should probably have its own thread.
Will do. We'll see how long till it's deleted.
Forget every single one of those clowns, and take the brochure you mentioned to a (good) solicitor. Sue the builder/developer.
I agree but as there is an election soon you never know who might actually listen. I'll wait till the house is finished before pursuing the builder/developer (same company).
Incorrect representations before a Contractual Agreement was signed?
Sure seems to be a clear case.
I agree but as there is an election soon you never know who might actually listen.
The stone-heads you mentioned will only throw the builder under the bus. They've got all their ducks lined up.
I'll wait till the house is finished before pursuing the builder/developer (same company).
Don't walk � run to the best solicitor you can find. Leaving it too long will provide the appearance you find the situation acceptable.
Incorrect representations before a Contractual Agreement was signed?
You wouldn't have bought the block if you wouldn't get fibre, right?
I actually wouldn't have. We searched everywhere and this one actually said it was part of the deal. I run a small business from home where I upload on average 200GB per month and it was a requirement.
Here is a screenshot from the brochure minus any identifying information.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uc
Here is a screenshot from the brochure minus any identifying information.
That is completely wrong in formulation and yes I can understand that you are are mislead. Lawyer in my view, buying a block of land/house is not a small thing, it is the biggest decision in your life so there should not be doubt on what you buy.
It is not that you didn't had an alternative with fibre in the Brisbane area. Both Brownfields and Greenfields.
But it also makes that talent from overseas, stays overseas and does not consider Australia as innovative and agile enough to jump ship
Probably explains why Morrow is here in Aus � can't make it anywhere else...
Finally they cover the NBN on Q+A, and the token Liberal (Wyatt Roy) looked stupid.
And the scientist on the panel basically said that there is simply no alternative but fibre.
Roy repeatedly stated the ideological position of Private Industry being the only one that can do it � it is all about ideology, from politicians...
Yep! Almost fell off my seat when someone from the audience asked a direct nbn question that could not be ignored
That's at least two strikes on Jones...will Q&A go through another navel gazing exercise and be forced to change its programming again...ie get further neutered?
The man is agile and innovative by implementing an old technology faster in his electorate.
Excellent point Frank � the whole mindset of LNP in all portfolios, as demonstrated so extensively with NBN � perceptions are all that count...
No competition any more and that is because he missed the term "quality" in the bold part.
Yep � no differentiaition until you use their customer service facilities.well maybe but generally you are locked in and it costs you to get out and try another.
I can't say any ISP/RSP competes when you say � I can pay $x with can you beat that?
t really annoys me that people try to be Politically Correct and not call a spade a spade and say "the issue is caused by both sides" or some such. Thats absolute rubbish!
Thankyou....
generally you are locked in and it costs you to get out and try another.
Be warned in that respect, some RSPs have a habit of advising you to take a lower speed just to see if the speed is "stable". There are two reasons why they do this.
The first reason is that they know that a network component is oversold and that the speed cannot be achieved even remotely. You know the cases 100/40Mbps ending up as 6/40Mbps at night.
The second reason is that they make it impossible to get out of the Contract if the speed is not up to scratch after you upgrade the speed, as you signed up from 24/12 months on a lower speed that is achievable. Simply downgrading the speed to your original speed removes the argument of your complaint.
So be smart, start on the speed you want, not on the speed they are prepared to give you. :)
Have the ABC finally got the political stick out of their arse?
Maybe it is a signal to Turnbull not to verbal guys like Tony Jones on Lateline the other night....penny drops....
The Nbn discussion, by far, drew the largest response on qanda.
Good marketing types in ABC should pick up on that...
Good marketing types in ABC should pick up on that...
Brick from the 14th floor will take care of agile marketing types ....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
When people and come and go
Zealot I'm sure you posted you were going to be away for a couple of months....panic mode set in?.... Wyatt Roy poor performance on Q&A to NBN Q's . Reviving again and again same barely relevant issues is a sign of failure....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
double post
is your FTTN that bad that the original post didn't go through quick enough? you have a few sympathisiers on this thread � wouldn't happen with FTTP though... I'd recommend you support it...
Ha this is why Turnbull doesn't want NBN to be spoken about on Q&A.
HUsic says it all � �We are going to go to an election based on a thing that not many people talk about, the ABCC, but not going to go to an election talking about the things people want to see done � the NBN.�
For those posters that claim Labor will not use NBN as an election issue � watch out... you out there Kingy or is it Zealots turn atm... facts speak louder than (presumed) words
But it all depends on ABCC and if it will be passed. Personally I think it will, mainly due to the number of senators who will keep their jobs if they pass it. The exact same senators who will lose their jobs after a dd.
May 11 is last day I think. ABCC won't get through IMO but then maybe I'm just wanting the earliest date to stop FTTN/MTM.
It should be noted the DD is not the critical part of all this, it is the joint house sitting that is obligatory once the new govt is in place. A questioner at today's Press Club put it forward in the numbers required 114 iirc in that sitting. His estimate was 80 in HoR (of 150) and 34 (of 76) in Senate. Even with a close election win they may not get the numbers to pass ABCC.
I reckon a couple of independents will do well in HoR and mess them around regardless of Senate vote changes which in DD have less effect. This would have been Greens main objective in Victoria particularly. Windsor is as good as in.
This would be good for FTTP as a hung parliament in HoR would keep them on their toes.
Then again is it all a (bully) bluff....?
Ok, NBN policy gurus....
Replying to myself here but I found this policy "Telecommunications infrastructure in new developments".
https://www.co
Section 3.3.2 Minimum service standards � states that "as a starting point, download data rates of 50 megabits per second..."
I certainly won't be getting that over ADSL.
Looks like mtm is in trouble. The msm are turning against it..
http://m.smh.com.au/comm
It's time to ditch the copper-based internet network and go with fibre or we will be left behind.
the fact that the copper-based services will be superseded and no longer fit-for-purpose in 10 to 15 years, and you just have to wonder why we are still heading down such an inferior pathway.
We need to stop arguing about the relative costs of fibre verses copper. All we are talking about now is when we spend the money because we will eventually have to replace the copper wire.
We are supposed to become an innovation nation, but we are already significantly constrained without competitive broadband.
Very difficult to do, because the nbn books are closed from scrutiny
What specifically is unknown? I would have thought some sort of analysis could be done based on available info and some realistic assumptions. Labor need some sound bites to combat the cheaper, sooner etc. of LNP. Even though these kind of sound bites are infuriating for those who know they are rubbish, they sadly do work on the masses.
states that "as a starting point, download data rates of 50 megabits per second..."
Well NBNCo's wholesale FTTN document only guarantees 25Mbps and that is after the co-existence period of 18 months � during that time only 12 Mbps is guaranteed
FTTN is clearly not fit for purpose!
I would have thought some sort of analysis could be done based on available info
What available information?
NBN policy = MTM policy
Wrong.
NBN policy was for a world-class and almost infinitely upscalable FTTP connection for 93% of endusers.
MTM policy is for a miserable grab-bag of late 20th century tech that'll be obsolete before they finish it.
Here's the killer punch you won't have on your political prompt sheet:
We could have seen the NBN rolled out for no greater cost, over time, than we'll finish up paying for the odds-and-sods MTM. And there's another major difference between them � MTM will have nothing like the revenue recoupment ability that NBN, and only NBN, would have provided.
What available information?
I don't claim to be an expert here, just an interested person who wants a better broadband network :)
We at least know the cost per premises of the different options. I seen this presented in Senate Estimates, including the cost when so called "skinny" fibre is used.
Anyway, it's going to be a long election campaign.
Nah, breeze, in a few weeks everybody in Australia knows what the NBN is really about and who they have to blame.
I'm sure that in 24 hours whirlpoolians will go back to blaming the ABC for people's lack of interest in the NBN.
Wrong mate, the ABC was self inflicted censorship. They will report on it from now on, there is no reason to blame the ABC anymore. Even the MSN is joining the party ....
As for the ABCC, that will be more dominant in the election.
Sadly politicians don't decide what is important to the voters. It is the voters who will decide what is important to them and the train wreck that this government is, will make that enough people will cast their vote in a protest manner.
I would rate defence and foreign policy as more important than the NBN.
Fair enough, we don't mind if you are not here. We like different views but not without the arguments.
We at least know the cost per premises of the different options. I
According to their assumptions. We really don't know for sure.
Some opex has been used in their caluations and savings such as project fox, have been buried into non existence.
Costings for nz are at odds for our nbn
We at least know the cost per premises of the different options
Only to the extent of total cost but not what comprises those costs in detail and it is apparent that much more is thrown in by NBN Co to FTTP costs than FTTN/MTM and assumptions are made that are not explained so it is an exercise of trust � with good reason not to. We only get given what they consider we need to know that suits them to justify FTTN/MTM.
It's up to fibre advocates to push their message.
No, it is up to Australians to get the most cost effective implementation. Note, not the cheapest and fastest.
Either complain or take advantage of the situation.
Correct to quote a famous actor: "Problems are only problems until you move them out of your way."
Malcolm probably can't bully the ABC like he use to
Malcolm is an open book and he has been used to destroy the LNP from the inside for a very long period of time. And those fools within the LNP supported him so he could do his job thoroughly and well. He just didn't understand that he was used as a tool. They had the perfect situation, a LNP member with Labor ideas. That is better and more effective than three years in opposition.
No complaint from me, if you are so stupid to be used as party, you deserve to be voted out.
There trolls are out in force.
Yeah, they even are outside forum rules now with correcting spelling mistakes. They really get desperate as they run without substance. Arguments dear trollers ... come on you can do it.
Good reason to call a DD
He is not going to call a DD, he is running scared on the MTM-policy (his legacy) and the polls.
IMO, there's no point pursuing the developer.
Why not?
And that can be laid squarely at the door of the LNP Coalition, with failed comms policy following failed comms policy over the last two decades.
Not entirely.
Telstra's non-disclosure of dangerous construction materials and dragging their feet when it was requested contributed greatly to delays in some regions.
Though i guess it all comes back to the LNP for not maintaining control of wholesale/infrastructure when they fire saled the company.
He is not going to call a DD, he is running scared on the MTM-policy (his legacy) and the polls.
I dont know about that.The longer he leaves it, the worse it gets for him.. Tony might even upsurp him.
Windsor is as good as in.
I would like to see Windsor win. In part because of his strong support of the real NBN and in part to take down Barnaby. But I don't agree that he is as good as in, I would say he would be an underdog (yes I know the newspoll showed him slightly ahead). I would think it would be rare for a high ranking member of the front bench to lose their seat, when their party is expected to win. The exception of course is if the person has gone through a scandal, but I don't believe Barnaby has. Most of the electorate would believe (probably correctly) that they should be better off with a Deputy Prime Minister,rather than an independent. But who knows, Windsor was certainly a popular figure before 2010, so it will be interesting to see.
If nothing else, Windosr will get the NBN out there more in the MTM and it should count against Barnaby. A lot of people have been annoyed at the Nats for not fighting for better broadband outside the major cities (although the major cities are not much better).
He is not going to call a DD, he is running scared on the MTM-policy (his legacy) and the polls.
That is more reason to go to the polls as soon as possible (for Turnbull). He is on a downward trend, the longer he waits, the worse it will be and the more time people will have to analyse the (probably weak) budget.
Believe me, Turnbull wants a DD. Given how much he has pissed off the crossbench, he really NEEDS a DD to get rid of (most of) them
Telstra's non-disclosure of dangerous construction materials and dragging their feet when it was requested contributed greatly to delays in some regions.
Telstra usually seems to act firmly in Telstra's own interests, and so other little irrelevancies like any question of national benefit may not become readily apparent.
But a danger point could possibly be reached if, for any reason, the self-perceived interests of Telstra happened to coincide with some others, as for example with a particularly noisome political campaign. The result of such disparate but congruent aspirations could become very detrimental.
I feel like the dam wall has finally burst on the NBN "cluster****" and the mainstream press are finally paying it some real attention (I tried to do my bit by having a word to a News Ltd editor in my circle of friends). Hopefully it will become an actual election issue in the coming months.
The budget will have to be a whopper to cause a significant shift to LNP
To obvious a vote buyer, might backfire on him
Way to go fraudband.
$56 billion pissed away on obsolete garbage.
(I tried to do my bit by having a word to a News Ltd editor in my circle of friends).
Would be a scoop if News came on board for anything bar MTM.
Yes the MTM is a joke & even one of the main contracting companies are treating it like a joke.
A large company in Victoria which is working on FTTN in the Goldfields area has started employing mates who have never worked in the Telco industry as Field Supervisors to over see the works. Blind leading the blind.
I'm not sure that everyone here has seen this so here it is anyway
https://imgur.com/vznUXws
I'm not sure that everyone here has seen this so here it is anyway
https://imgur.com/vznUXws
Yes, been around for a bit..
I've been going through the other Nbn threads and those dealing with fttn are recording a literny of problems.
Open circuits, congestion, speeds slower than their ADSL, serious dropouts. Modem problems, weather and so forth.
Some are even refusing to cut over from ADSL .
Not a good start for fttn
Yes the MTM is a joke & even one of the main contracting companies are treating it like a joke.
A large company in Victoria which is working on FTTN in the Goldfields area has started employing mates who have never worked in the Telco industry as Field Supervisors to over see the works. Blind leading the blind.
what was interesting from last Senate hearing was that Broadspectrum (formerly Transfield) use "Field Supervisors" as OH&S checkers, not as supervisors of the actual work or workers
http://www.xisafety.com/wp-c
Google is introducing Fiber Phone, a $10 a month landline plan with unlimited local and nationwide calls.
A phone only plan..
Nbn should be looking at similar.
Big year for Stephen Rue as NBN races time
Murdoch drinking cool aid..
�The fact is that we are on track to deliver our corporate plan with high-speed broadband access delivered across Australia by 2020. This will be 25Mbps to all as a minimum and 50Mbps to 90 per cent or more of homes and businesses in the fixed-line footprint.
the only reason to do this...drive through the ideological agenda and pay the favours still hanging....
In an age when 'everyone' is concerned about corruption, I still amazes me why voters fall the 'promises' (read, bribes) made every election.
We really are a gullible lot!
(catching up)
I dont know about that.
He is already busy with the exit strategy, amendments so it can pass. If he wants a DD, he would not allow amendments. But he realises that the debate can become rather ugly which will rub of on him.
The longer he leaves it, the worse it gets for him.
That is true, he basically couldn't afford the last and this week.
Tony might even upsurp him.
Would be good, perhaps we can leave the backstabbing behind us then political wise. We don't want Italian situations here. Don't think it makes any difference to how people vote though.
That is more reason to go to the polls as soon as possible (for Turnbull).
Sadly for Turnbull he has to operate in an environment where many members of his party are in the position of a fight of a lifetime to stay in the seat.
He is on a downward trend, the longer he waits, the worse it will be and the more time people will have to analyse the (probably weak) budget.
I bet he misses Credlin now, management wise. :)
Believe me, Turnbull wants a DD.
There is a difference between "wanting" something and "getting" something. The circumstances run more unfavourable with each day that passes. It will be a calculative move for him to call a DD or not. The less worse situation of all bad so to speak.
150 comments , 99% wanting fibre brought back..
Not bad for a msm story..
Yep, that is good which is really why I quote all the above. The discussion on the failed MTM-policy is front and centre now, it is Lord Light bulb's legacy and left himself no choice.
Had to laugh at Paul Barry suggesting that the ABC was perceived as left leaning.. In fact it was right leaning.
The ABC leans to the funding and doesn't mind to help out left once in while to get rid of right .... ;)
It makes sense for Telstra to install copper � Telstra get their copper connection charge, they're not forced to wholesale it for a pittance because it doesn't go over 25Mbps, and then they can sell it to NBNCo later for a markup when they have to dump their nodes there.
Make total sense when reading it, typical case of failed Telecom policies.
If the ABCC legislation fails it would be political suicide to *not* call a DD after all this build up.
Yes and just don't you love the picture? A devoted republican who has to run to the GG to bully the independents in passing a anti-bully law for the building industry. And then ends up calling a DD because he has political no other choice but is then confronted with his own legacy and disastrous failures when he was Telecommunication Minister. The irony could not be bigger and man that will hurt.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I doubt that Turnbull gives a damn about the NBN in relation to having a DD.
I think he only cares when it looks bad on HIM and that moment has arrived.
As I understand it when a DD happens both halves of the Senate must be elected, not just the usual half.
But in favour of the independents, they only have to collect half the votes to get in. Light bulb would rather call a normal election if he wishes to pick the fruits of his deal with the Greens.
He is probably gambling on getting an overall majority to control the Senate as well as the Reps so he can bull through unpopular LNP legislation they have been holding back on since 2013.
His goal is not a DD, his goal consists out of a very long list of legislation to pass (and for which he wants to claim victory).
I expect in time Telstra will be 'reluctantly' persuaded to buy NBNCo at a fire sale price
No, they are not interested. Only interested in profiteering from it which is fair enough. They don't mind selling Brisbane Fibre at the right price to make that Bill makes his numbers for this year.
You are right it looks like quite a gamble.
The man likes to play high stakes, so much is clear.
That's good for the future of FTTP. This could be a 'most exciting time'....
Yes, I think the current situation can not get much better for FTTP.
We really are a gullible lot!
Indeed, also that some actually defend them for their indefensible deeds as well is mind boggling.
The MTM is indefensible waste of money.
But then again some people do support corruption and frauds in politics sadly.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
Well we kind of already knew this
Murdoch drinking cool aid..
So 25mbit in 2016 is considered "high speed"?
Again, 10 years ago the MTM disaster would have been a viable option when it was floated at the coat of $10-12 Billion with an upgrade path to FTTP factored into the design and build.
But "up to" 25mbit being considered high speed in 2016 when being delivered by a MTM network costing as much if not more than FTTP and will be delivered no sooner if not much later than the original build is pure political driven madness.
We've paid far to high a price to satisfy the desires of a small group of people seeking power, influence and money. I hope Abbott, Turnbull, their minders and benefactors are happy.
Well we kind of already knew this
Yep, not worth paying for that what we know already.
Murdoch drinking cool aid..
�The fact is that we are on track to deliver our corporate plan with high-speed broadband access delivered across Australia by 2020.
sort of forgets the 25Mbps by the end of our first term promise of his overlords though..
So the corporate plan does not meet the policy promise taken to the last election, and given the corporate plan has to be signed off by the shareholder ministers, that by default means the Liberals have failed to keep the first part of the promise.
So why should anyone believe that they can actually meet the second part?
NBN released an updated timeline for the rollout here
Source and credit to The Shovel. Sorry
NBN released an updated timeline for the rollout here
can someone please remove the hook from my mouth, and the sinker and the 100 metres of line.
k, thanks
Would be a scoop if News came on board for anything bar MTM.
Indeed. I actually had a go at her after she used me as a background source on why people pirate TV shows. I told her the main reason for me was that I couldn't get streaming to work without major quality or buffering issues and that buying season packs was far too expensive. Her response was that I should "just get better internet". Cue the rage. I told her she should probably do some research on how the internet works before writing "technology" articles � and that if she insists on writing technology articles, she should probably focus on the NBN (you know, an issue of national importance) rather than writing clickbait trash on the piracy of Game of Thrones. I'm not holding my breath though...
The ABC is asking for people to tell them what their biggest election issue is:
Done
With your long blonde hair
and your eyes of blue
The only thing I got from you
was sorrow ( Morrow )
Sorrow ( Morrow )
This could go down in history � thanks for the laughs...
even though we don't know what Labors plans are yet.
Anything has to better than this MTM flusterf_ck !!!
The ABC is asking for people to tell them what their biggest election issue is:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/
Too easy.
Yep
New isp will rollout fibre and they will not wait for nbn https://www.lightningbroadband.com.au/residential/
The speed will start from 200mbps , just in melbourn at the moment
+ 1 small vote
The speed will start from 200mbps , just in melbourn at the moment
and this tech is exactly what Malcolm was pushing when Labor's FTTP network was first mooted.
Did malcolm allowed private isps to rollout fibre?
As i know no one allowed except nbntm !
The speed will start from 200mbps , just in melbourn at the moment
Let the cherry picking begin...
I wish labor allow all isps to rollout fibre to their customers and this will make massive competition and the taxpayers will not waste any money and the budget will focus on another important issues in australia
New isp will rollout fibre and they will not wait for nbn https://www.lightningbroadband.com.au/residential/
The speed will start from 200mbps , just in melbourn at the moment
direct fibre and/or hybrid wireless + fibre broadband technology. Symetrical
We install a fibre link (single mode, single strand, multi-spectrum fibre) into an area already provisioned as being �on-net�. This acts as a peer-to-peer (P2P) link to our DC (DC-HSDPA = Dual-Carrier/Dual-Cell) and Transit providers.
For redundancy purposes, we acquire transit from the nation�s leading tier-1 providers such as Vocus, PIPE, Telstra and AAPT.
We then use 24 Ghz microwave backhaul links to beam this bandwidth to a central location within an area; such as the rooftop of the local shopping center. This backhaul link is symmetrical, low latency and capable of throughput greater than a gigabit.
The signal is captured by our receiver and terminates at a Cisco 2911 POP router, which handles routing and IP termination and assignment.
From there, the signal is transmitted through Cisco 3750�s/3560�s/2960�s access switches to the 802.11n and 802.11ac 5.8ghz radio equipment, then to an array of transmitters atop a mast around 20 metres high for re-broadcasting.
The signal is received by a small microwave receiver mounted of the roof of the client�s premises. An outdoor rated ethernet cable is run from the mast through to an RJ45 wall plate for connection to a WLAN compatible router or directly to a PC.
Even in a situation where there�s no line of sight to a distribution tower, other users of the service that do become relay points for those who don�t.
all isps to rollout fibre to their customers and this will make massive competition
I am unsure whether you are massively ignorant or just a troll.
New isp will rollout fibre and they will not wait for nbn https://www.lightningbroadband.com.au/residential/
The speed will start from 200mbps , just in melbourn at the moment
Looking at the tech specs, its fibre to a high building. Then using microwave antennas to the premises. They say its high speed and low latency. I'm skeptical. If you don't have line of sight, another antenna near by will rebroadcast the signal (24Ghz band, the backhaul is capable of 1Gbps).
No thanks, I'll wait for FTTP or nothing. I want last mile guaranteed stability. CVC and congestion is another story.
I wish labor allow all isps to rollout fibre to their customers and this will make massive competition and the taxpayers will not waste any money and the budget will focus on another important issues in australia
History suggests otherwise would happen.
I am unsure whether you are massively ignorant or just a troll
Neither.. Just someone not fully informed.. Hes ok, no troll..
Did malcolm allowed private isps to rollout fibre?
As i know no one allowed except nbntm !
Interesting isn't it?
TPG can only do FTTB because they were already registered and they abide by 1km rule...as I understand it.
New isp will rollout fibre and they will not wait for nbn https://www.lightningbroadband.com.au/residential/
The speed will start from 200mbps , just in melbourn at the moment
I think someone forgot to mention to them that NBN FTTP can go to 1600/1600 mbps...
New isp will rollout fibre and they will not wait for nbn https://www.lightningbroadband.com.au/residential/
�We use tried and tested technology along with some clever engineering to offer our services; which we�ll roll out wherever we find sufficient demand.
Yep, more cherry picking. Moving along.
ABC is asking for people to tell them what their biggest election issue is:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/
Too easy.
I don't mind sharing that the second question � what would you change � I answered as Media concentration laws.
This is the root and vehicle of political evil in this nation IMO. NBN is the perfect example
FTTP can deliver (and FTTN/MTM can't) to all of those in service delivery increasing productivity and reducing costs while contributing soem $20B pa to GDP on tod
This amount of $20B pa is a myth originating on WP, no-one believes it. If anyone believed it then the experts that appeared in senate hearings would have bought it up. Why hasn't Internet Australia or one the university professors that appeared in Senate bring up $20B pa?
Let me emphasie. EVERY SINGLE NATION! U.K, NZ, Singapore, the U.S.A and more that i can't be bothered listing are all going fibre,
This is not true, there are very few countries that are going Fiber all the way. Overseas the majority of rollouts reflects the MTM.
The fact is the USA has 134M premises and Verizon the largest FTTP provider has 6.6M activations, this is a fact. There are no plans to take Fiber all the way.
It's safe to say USA will have 20% Fiber penetration like the MTM, like the 80/20 rule. The US rollouts have been biased towards cherry picking the easy 20% of households (80/20 rule) to maximise ROI.
Even NZ being a small country is only going to be about 70% not 100%.
"We have a total of 6.6 million FiOS Internet subscribers, representing 41.1 percent penetration...
http://www.statista.com/topi
http://arstechnica.com/busin
Even in Europe there are no plans to roll out FTTP all the way, FTTB is the standard over there and bundled in with FTTP � They are not going to smash through or endanger 400 year buildings in Europe rolling out Fiber, thus why they bundle in FTTB/FTTP together.
I have been to many European countries and you will find FTTB is the norm but the ISP' s will call it Fiber, as said they do not differentiate between FTTP or FTTB. The vast majority live in apartments and thus why it's FTTB.
The Coalition should consider switching FTTB portion into the FTTP (away from FTTN) portion of the rollout like they do in Europe, it's standard overseas and show they are rolling out more FTTP. If they did the FTTP/FTTB metric would be >30% and likely higher than FTTN.
There are now nearly 15 million FTTH/B subscribers on the European continent (14.5 million to be exact) � not including Russia and the Ukraine, which would add a further 14.8 million homes to the total (source: FTTH market panorama prepared by IDATE for FTTH Council Europe).
http://www.ftthcouncil.eu/do
$20Billion makes for less than 4%. Of course it's been mentioned, and has been seen to be the case in many other countries.
Not that anyone here should really be feeding the trolls or shills, but some things mentioned are just too ridiculous to be left there, steaming...
Which makes Telstra and your statement as false. That's a business decision, not a blocker. As TPG took the business decision to progress.
much to Mal's chagrin.
They were quick and agile by forming a new wholesale division for FTTB only.
Mal thought his rules would require TPG to split itself into 2 totally separate divisions.
Whereas they took the quick and simple path to form Wondercom , guess their legal people knew what the rules said, not what Mal thought they said or what he meant them to say
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Overseas the majority of rollouts reflects the MTM
Translation: There is a mixture of technologies used throughout the world. What is being rolled out *currently* is fibre, in some places to replace the ill-considered and inadequate FTTN/CTTP hybrid that failed so spectacularly in places such as the UK and NZ.
NZ is going to be 70%? The "mix" you appear to be wishing to conflate into what could be mis-represented as an equivalent of the dog's breakfast we are getting could well include satellite and wireless. This may have something to do with the terrain.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is not true, there are very few countries that are going Fiber all the way. Overseas the majority of rollouts reflects the MTM.
They roll out Fibre and utilise existing technologies.
At the moment we're rolling out copper (not solely mind you).
There is a difference.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This amount of $20B pa is a myth originating on WP
Wrong, it is a fact based on independent international analysis.
Overseas the majority of rollouts reflects the MTM.
Please cite even one ongoing rollout that includes buying or building copper and HFC networks.
It's safe to say USA will have 20% Fiber penetration like the MTM
It's safe to say that your claim is entirely baseless.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
This is not true, there are very few countries that are going Fiber all the way. Overseas the majority of rollouts reflects the MTM.
Sensible observations. The majority of posters here are unable to process such.
Let's see how long before someone latches on to the headline 'AT&T, Google launch new 1Gbps FTTP networks in US' and gets worked up about how the 'US is on 1Gps' while he is stuck with MTM.
I thought the same and after some googling yesterday for gigabit fibre in W.A I had
http://www.ciphertel.com/ciphertel-gigabit-link/
Thanks for googling better than me! That could be it but I'm still not completely sold. Maybe I'll ask him directly.
Wrong, it is a fact based on independent international analysis.
I haven't a whole lot from you that I could label either 'independent' or 'analysis'.
Sensible observations.
If you honestly think that, then you should feel free to answer the request directed to Raoul:
Please cite even one ongoing rollout that includes buying or building copper and HFC networks.
You will struggle, because in reality none exist.
NZ is going to be 70%?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Even NZ being a small country is only going to be about 70% not 100%.
There is quite a bit of misinformation about New Zealand's "NBN" rollout.
The entire rollout will cover 97.8% of the population, which is a combination of the following:
- All towns and cities with a population above 10,000 inhabitants (covering 80% of the population) will be provided with Fibre. This EXCLUDES the lead-in from the street to the premises... it is effectively Fibre to the Driveway. Customers must arrange their own lead-in through their ISP.
The Fibre infrastructure is 50% owned by the local electricity companies, to incentivise their participation and utilise their existing infrastructure (poles and ductwork). - The remaining 17.8% of the population will be covered with a "mix" of technologies including FTTN, Wireless (via a Vodafone partnership) and in some cases ADSL will be provided.
I hope that's clear. The NZ arrangement was made to be as cost efficient as possible, maximise the use of the electricity infrastructure (not the existing copper infrastructure). Difficulties with installation from the street to the premises are the building owners' responsibilities.
Currently the project is currently 60% complete, with full completion in 2022.
You will struggle, because in reality none exist.
No sensible organisation would plan on using ancient copper today � let alone install more copper!
Copper (twisted if you are lucky) pairs was designed by we engineers to transmit telegraph and then voice grade signalling using high voltages and considerable current in the 300-3,000 Hz range. With some clever tweaking we first managed 300 baud, then all the way up to 56,000 which was pushing it to it's limit.
The ADSL standards pushed this even further but things started to get problematic at those speeds. Reliability suffered and speed was HEAVILY dependent on line length.
Now VDSL/G.fast has pushed it even further but to be honest that is taking a T model Ford and dropping in a V8 motor, extractors and upgraded brakes.... might sound good but it is a disaster waiting to happen. (and who would want such an ugly vehicle in any case?) By the way, the T model Ford is not as old as using copper for transmission (first used in Australia for telegraph transmission in 1854... and for international transmission in 1870.... voice transmissions over telephone lines in Australia commenced in 1879 and coin operated "public phones" were introduced in around 1890. Some of our cabling almost appears to be that old � or maybe that is just the pathetic maintenance it received as it was assumed to be heading towards its "end of life".
Ancient technology � sure is, subject to also sorts of environmental disruption- yep and is there a better alternative � of course there is but some people are just too blind (or politically biased) to see.
stop feeding the trolls
market analyses doesn't see past 1 year nevermind the 5 year election cycle of the australian political system..
earmark of service of anytype of fttn based system regardless of where you access the convertor to copper based network for 1.5 year you might have a slim operation excess on capital though by the start of year 2 if you aren't investing in infrastructure you are going to loose money failing to make the upgrade because the longer you ignore its service the more it cost's to maintain ir and copper degrades the longer it is left...
23 years ago it was costing then telecom australia now telstra 1 billion annually to *cough* maintain ***cough*** its copper network today 10 billion would likely be its claim though financial reality it likely be closer to 20-25 billion to maintain its network of copper..
reality is the copper isn't fit for purpose at 24/1 nor i doubt it will cover 24/1 or 25/5-1000/400 or 40/20GB or what ever a complete fibre networking end point is capable of producing at full speed..
i find with migration to fibre or fois as the yanks call it i can see what we f-connectors being fazed out with fta tuners migration to an optical connection, with the option 100,000 network providers for pay tv.. it's going to make foxtel/optus/telstra obsolete in a way..
Does anyone know if there has been any FTTN implemented in WA?
Next month or so Cannington (or part thereof) is due to go RFS....Doubleview also I believe has had works going on...
Sensible observations.
A stinking pile of half truths and out of date "facts" .... that you swallowed whole... good to see Raoul has picked up another acolyte here.
Sensible observations. The majority of posters here are unable to process such.
You sound like you pair are straight out of the World is Flat clique. "I say Jimmy, i knew the world was flat... look at them their hills in the distance.. i can still see them!"
Jimmy: " yep me too.. all of those scientists, explorers, and professionals have to be wrong... one person agrees with me!"
As a freight ship disappears over the horizon two and three times the distance the mountain is.
Sensible observations
Absolute tosh!
Show me which countries are doing what we are � hint � there are none!
NZ was and changed.
The UK has issues with fttn and is looking at changing.
Kenya etc are also now installing FTTP as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
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