What if this entire thread was copied and emailed to both Major parties
It would be more than a safe bet they have been for a very long time ....noticed a couple of posters heavily and nonsensically flooding it with purely partisan posts....perception management? Whirpool is a very critical source for political parties on many topics, NBN being high on the list.
I think that makes sense. Keep DOCSIS 3.0 and upgrade to provide a reliable 50/10 as an interim service whilst FTTP is rolled out elsewhere. Come back later and replace HFC with FTTP.
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
DOCSIS 3.1 looks like itwil not be the panacea that Cable Labs and the HFC providers had hoped. There seem to be a great deal of difficulty in trying to implement it in the field when compared to the lab, there have been linked articles in teh HFC thread I think.
I think the main problem is the cost. As far as I have read, apart from the node splits required, almost all the active equipment has to be replaced. It's not so much an upgrade as an entire overhaul of the network. When you combine that with infill into the areas that Telstra and Optus missed in the rollout, the chance of HFC with DOCSIS 3.1 being more cost effective over the medium term than FTTP is very low.
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
Wasted money I agree, after all they are supposed to nominally have 100Mb/s aren't they � bit like FTTN promises promises...
IMO there is oly one way to go full FTTP pretty much in the order mention a few posts ago but leave HFC to end ... just work around the FTTN MTM mess.... the KISS principle.
It would be more than a safe bet they have been for a very long time ....noticed a couple of posters heavily and nonsensically flooding it with purely partisan posts....perception management? Whirpool is a very critical source for political parties on many topics, NBN being high on the list.
Yes, both parties know about this thread, and one side has been extremely active in trying to shift groundswell with a number of shill accounts. Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
both parties know about this thread
Remember those days pre-Liberal when NBN were on these forums answering questions.. ahh the good old days. Now whirlpool.net.au would be blocked from their server
Sorry but I don't understand why such complexity needs to be added to the farce the NBN has become.
Huh? The complexity has come from he purely partisan way that the current goverment has handled the since winning goverment.
What I was suggesting is one way that decoupled the influence partisan politics had over the project. Essentially two politicians direct NBNco by way if the SoE with nothing standing between common sense and the common good and their self interest.
What I suggested wasn't particularly complex, it is certainly easy to understand. Get a representative expert panel to steer NBNco. Mist likely through the SoE process.
Unless you think NBNco can turn the MTM ship around and complete the NBN in the next term of goverment you will need a better plan than "just build it".
That was the original plan and look what happened on the change of goverment.
Unless you think NBNco can turn the MTM ship around and complete the NBN in the next term of goverment you will need a better plan than "just build it".
Apologies cw, I wasn't being critical, just suggesting to just get on with it. The time it would take to get a steering committee set up and then put a plan together, and all the flak that would draw politically (the Oz would have a birthday...) is what I call complexity.
As for bi-partisanship, I only see Turnbull as having any capability of that on the LNP side and he totally squibbed any opportunity for anyone to believe he could. Waste of time IMO sadly.
NBN V1 was totally designed in overall build and a number of areas were detail designed so unless that has been destroyed under LNP reign there is a quick start possibility. That would buy the time to sort the longer term nitty gritties out � no delay dare I say sooner , faster and I have no doubt cheaper than nbn MTM on every measure....
Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
I've noticed this as well � maybe the funding ran out?
NBN V1 was not perfect, however it was a lot better than V2.
V3 should learn from the mistakes of the past and be aiming to finish it in 10 years � FTTP for 93% then look at the other 7%/invest in more sattelites/other technologies to give better internet to rural communities.
We should be aiming for 50mbs minimum in 3 years and 1gbs by 2030 � these speeds are available overseas at the moment.
Other countries are laughing at us.
Mind you, they've stopped as of the last few days..
They are probably reloading.
We should be aiming for 50mbs minimum in 3 years and 1gbs by 2030 � these speeds are available overseas at the moment.
Other countries are laughing at us.
In fact any build for FTTP can now do 100/40 and be easily upgraded to 1GB with little work at each end I believe � no infrastructure requirements at all. No need for 50Mb/s min.
If HFC if treated by an NBN FTTP V3 as Turnbull claimed it with his 2016 promise ie. do nothing to it because it already is supposed to do better than 25Mb/s but claim it as part of his build, only ~ 2/3rds of the 12M services identified in NBN V1 need to be 'built'. About 2M FTTP have been done to date and that was at a 40% rate compared to NBN V1 planned built rate, leaving 6M to be done. A large portion of that would be done before another election.
I could not see another reversal of FTTP if restarted under any circumstance. FTTN is failing badly and FTTP has had nowhere near the same problems and is performing well.
They are probably reloading.
Busy reviewing the Labor NBN Policy image docs phoned out of Conroy's office maybe?
HFC with DOCSIS 3.1
The other big problem with 3.1 is the speed, or those on FTTN asking why those on HFC would get far faster speeds than those stuck with copper. The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable, something the current lot in power would not want to deal with.
The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable, something the current lot in power would not want to deal with.
Except to increase that divide. These are people who only measure success by wealth and power. They want more of those and can only get them [because their feeble imaginations can't perceive any other way] by taking it away from others. The idea of actually increasing the size of the pie so that everyone benefits is beyond them.
Remember those days pre-Liberal when NBN were on these forums answering questions.. ahh the good old days. Now whirlpool.net.au would be blocked from their server
I wish i remebered them days! Although i was on WP long before then, i wasn't deep in NBN untill about 5 years ago when i started learning that a possible change in government would mean an end to an already VERY LONG AND PAINFUL wait just to get on the "3-years-for-heaven-build-commence" list only to have it be swept out the window in 2013! i really wish NBNv1 was still going full steam ahead. I could only imagine how awesome it would have been to be on FTTP 6 months ago (and thats worst case!) and ot have ridden the wave the whole way and even being able to read communications with NBN staff on WP!
This is the kind of thing that should be happening with such a massive country wide undertaking.
I think ALP should just halt all new FTTN instantly. Finish any new builds of FTTN that aren't passed the point of no return (even if some are well into starting... save the money down the road of BUILD PRICE + FISH UP PRICE and just chuck away the half spent on BUILD START and scrap it and go back to FTTP NG-PON2 for all.
Forget HFC. Even though i've seen some good examples of decent ways to use it.. all the negatives just seem like a wast of time and money. In the end.. stop fkg around and get on with what we all know should never have been stopped. And just fix the issues that were wrong with that implementation (CVC / POI / Stopping the network from being changed again... etc).
Doesn't the deal with Telstra say that once they use any of the HFC, they take on the burden for maintaining the whole network?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. Once they take ownership of any part of the HFC network they commit to taking ownership if it all but that happens over time as the roll out progresses.
From what I can see, it would be best to just not touch the HFC at all.
It's revenue for the NBNCo. If an interim HFC upgrade can pay for itself before it's replaced then that's a net benefit to the NBNCo. If it can't then don't do it. It's worth a look imo.
The Haves and Have Nots would be very noticeable
Makes it very attractive for Foxtel owners doesn't it and Telstra who wants to sell it share or part of....NBN CO added value at taxpayer expense...bloody wonderful!!
It's revenue for the NBNCo. If an interim HFC upgrade can pay for itself before it's replaced then that's a net benefit to the NBNCo. If it can't then don't do it. It's worth a look imo.
So NBN Co didn't have much regard for FTTN then if they gave HFC priority...
Maybe the ALP's policy could be to allow NBN Co (but probably without the portion of the current nbn� management that is one eyed) to decide whether to rollout FttP or Fttdp where NBN Co determines which is the beat approach against a set criteria. Existing FttN rollouts will be continued where its not feasible or economical to change to a FttP or Fttdp rollout. Otherwise FttN can go the way of the dodo (dodo also to = MT).
I have no flapping idea what they do with HFC, particularly given nbn� may have locked in costly arrangements with Telstra.
Maybe the ALP's policy could be to allow NBN Co (but probably without the portion of the current nbn� management that is one eyed) to decide whether to rollout FttP or Fttdp where NBN Co determines which is the beat approach against a set criteria.
I think the first step could be to show the Coalition has turned the NBNCo into such a financial basket case the only way to complete the roll out is for the government to fund it all with equity. There are already reports of the Coalition looking at ways to get out of the mess. Labor just needs to build on that. Using equity is cheaper all round.
Having done that, I think Labor can make a financial case for a return to FTTP. I take Phg's point in the Coalition thread, though, that FTTdp might be politically more acceptable. If FTTdp is far enough advanced as a technology to be used in a full scale roll out then it might be the best way forward.
I have no flapping idea what they do with HFC, particularly given nbn� may have locked in costly arrangements with Telstra.
I think that will depend on whether the NBNCo has triggered the 'take it all' clause in the Telstra agreement.
If they have a choice I think Labor should look to see if HFC is a cost-effective interim solution to generate some revenue whilst allowing the NBNCo to focus on FTTP (or FTTdp) elsewhere.
I also think they should use FTTB/dp as a first resort for MDUs to speed up the roll out. It's been too long already. They can't afford to slow down. They really need to speed up.
all just my opinion
oops
Umm ... this is the Labor thread :)
I think that will depend on whether the NBNCo has triggered the 'take it all' clause in the Telstra agreement.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC). I think it was asked and answered in the last senate select committee hearing, but I wasn't able to listen to that and haven't caught up on it yet.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC).
OK Thanks. I think Labor should have a quick look at it and then decide what to do. There should be a lot of information there already.
NBN Co have said they will not have triggered that clause in the Telstra agreement before June 30 (IIRC). I think it was asked and answered in the last senate select committee hearing, but I wasn't able to listen to that and haven't caught up on it yet.
last Senate Estimates hearing page 132 of the Hansard
Senator CONROY: As we have discussed before, the revised definitive agreements with Telstra have anticherry-picking provisions in them in regard to the Telstra HFC. Specifically, a trigger point is reached when the first HFC line is transferred to nbn co, after which nbn co takes on an obligation to acquire and maintain Telstra's
entire HFC network or face the compensation regime. That is correct?
Mr Morrow: Yes.
Senator CONROY: Your corporate plan states that 10,000 HFC premises will be ready, and I know you
made a statement earlier about the service on the HFC by 30 June 2016. Will any of those HFC premises switched
on by nbn co by 30 June 2016 be on the Telstra network?
Mr Morrow: No.
Senator CONROY: So the trigger point will not be reached?
Mr Morrow: That is correct.
I fear what may happen on July 1 though
1 day before the election
On a a Friday a day where nbn� like to make lots of announcements
If they have a choice I think Labor should look to see if HFC is a cost-effective interim solution to generate some revenue whilst allowing the NBNCo to focus on FTTP (or FTTdp) elsewhere.
But what do you do with all the people without HFC in a HFC area?
But what do you do with all the people without HFC in a HFC area?
That's one of the options to consider:
- move everyone onto HFC over 18 months using the 'demand drop' method to do the lead-ins
- leave ADSL in those areas: let those who want to move to HFC move and let the others stay where they are
It's all part of the decision whether to take over the HFC networks or not. If it's not cost-effective to take them on then the NBNCo just goes back to paying for them to be decommissioned.
I fear what may happen on July 1 though
1 day before the election
On a a Friday a day where nbn� like to make lots of announcements
Would not be a surprise I agree.... I think in fact there was a comment on a thread that NBN Co would make an announcement on June 30/July 1 (?). When Labor announces its NBN Policy it should IMO specify that it will not honour any commitments made by LNP during caretaker period and should not be considered binding.
When Labor announces its NBN Policy it should IMO specify that it will not honour any commitments made by LNP during caretaker period and should not be considered binding.
think you mean nbn� , but they are allegedly bound by the caretaker provisions
think you mean nbn�
nah! that is a misnoma and misrepresents what it actually is.... I mean a real National Broadband Network Policy
Makes it very attractive for Foxtel owners doesn't it and Telstra who wants to sell it share or part of....NBN CO added value at taxpayer expense...bloody wonderful!!
i think its a case of taking over the ownership of the nbn itself � retaining its wholesale monopoly yet again (like this has worked well in the last 15 or so years hasnt it) � and having the public purse fund most of a network they will own and control. As it is, they * control the sale of the copper * that we are locked into if we use it. ie. they can simply make it impossible to sell off to anyone but them.
If this isnt corruption at federal govt level I dont know what is.
I hope labor have a good plan to trying and dig the nation out of this hole. I do expect that FttDP (with user pays pti to premises if they want fibre all the way) and FTTB (with similar user pays arrangements) will be the core of the ALP policy to be announced in the next couple of weeks. I am guessing they are saving it up for a hail mary pass at the end of the campaign.
I do expect that FttDP
The problem is this doesn't get us out of the Teltra veto powers mess, as it's still using Telstra's copper assets for that last 20 or so meters. FTTB is the only one that does in true FTTB situations as the MDF and building wiring belong to the body Corp and not Telstra
The problem is this doesn't get us out of the Teltra veto powers mess, as it's still using Telstra's copper assets for that last 20 or so meters.
I agree sir. But theres no silver bullet solution � there has to be a compromise. The positive in this is that at least it means labor wont be selling off the NBN anytime soon when the only buyer is Telstra...
I would expect under FTTDp there will be a fixed price fibre on demand option, and this will be the best we will get.
My personal opinion is the days of 'free fibre' are over � and with the changes to the definitive agreement, the revenue model that supported that (bringing in the HFC high profit centres) is gone. I guess we will know soon enough what their plans are. Has to be better than the libs current efforts at sabotaging a nation to support a corporation (and Murdochs tax break haven of foxtel).
with the changes to the definitive agreement
Changes to the definitive agreement don't really change this. Originally I thought they might, but they only really bring an issue about with areas that have a node. The remediation responsibility is capped, but not removed for areas that go straight to fibre. In some cases where the remediation responsibility hits its cap, it may even work out quicker than previously experienced because NBN Co would directly take over responsibility for fixing it.
the revenue model that supported that (bringing in the HFC high profit centres) is gone
I suggest you check the leaked documents. FTTH has a higher revenue model than all the other technologies in all the other areas. Also providing NBN Co don't do something monumentally stupid in caretaker mode, If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
I would expect under FTTDp there will be a fixed price fibre on demand option, and this will be the best we will get.
The problem I have with this is all the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises, do you seriously think the next push to fibre, either paid directly by subscribers, or a new mass rollout to get that last 30-40m is going to cost less than $300 per premises, and do you seriously think that no government is going to privatise before this occurs meaning Telstra gets their veto in there, and plays havoc with the market value?
Also providing NBN Co don't do something monumentally stupid in caretaker mode
Past experience is not promising
The problem I have with this is all the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises
The problem I have with this is those numbers come from the NBNCo. I haven't believed their other numbers and I'm not about to believe this one.
Telsoc reckoned the cost per pit for FTTdp was roughly the same as the cost per premises for FTTP. On that basis, if there are four premises using he pit the saving is ~$1,000 per premises. I'll go with Telsoc's numbers rather than the NBNCo's.
Telsoc quote/link ... whrl.pl/ReDd7K
The problem I have with this is those numbers come from the NBNCo.
Based on one fttdp trial connection.. hardly a representative sample.
I think the first step could be to show the Coalition has turned the NBNCo into such a financial basket case the only way to complete the roll out is for the government to fund it all with equity. There are already reports of the Coalition looking at ways to get out of the mess. Labor just needs to build on that. Using equity is cheaper all round.
There are two separate political issues with NBN:
1) � How it's financed
2) � The tech used
The genuine ideological difference is (1) (with the left position being very popular), but Turnbull successfully reframed the issue as (2).
But the reality is MTM means ongoing government funding is now a necessity.
I don't think this will be Labor policy, but it I still think the left have the opportunity to fork Turnbull on this. FTTP is profitable and could be viably privatised, but MTM is not. Personally, I'd love the irony of the privately funded quality from Labor vs publicly funded crap from the Libs.
Re HFC:
1) � We are yet to see how much it's really going to cost to implement. We're still early in it's development and the scope for more cost blowouts are still alive and kicking. But I think perhaps a bigger problem is infill. It's all very well to quote average CPPs, but once they start putting in nodes for areas with high infill requirements, effectively these premises are passed by � and nbn� have to pay for � both techs for the same premises. This is the anti-cherry picking provisions Telstra negotiated with their take-one, take-all HFC provisions.
2) � I don't think an incoming Labor government would have any huge problem unwinding any of this implemented during the caretaker period. Telstra could take it to the courts, but they'd lose (Telstra are fully aware of the caretaker provisions, they couldn't claim good faith). But even if Telstra won, Labor would win politically on this, and would be able to get enabling legislation through the Senate.
I suggest you check the leaked documents. FTTH has a higher revenue model than all the other technologies in all the other areas.
sorry, I was bringing up the point of HFC areas in the context they are big income stream areas (otherwise PM Murdoch wouldnt have rolled out HFC there in the first place).
The reason why I suggested the compromise approach is that traditionally the pit to the premises has been the most expensive component of the build. Ignoring the estimated build costs for premises that have been quoted for a minute (experience has shown that since telstra dont know the state of their ducts, no one can estimate how much capital work is involved � hence NBN have been quoting ranges for their technology upgrade program) it would appear FTTdP would be focusing labour on the street at pit level only, and eliminates the pit to the premises component expense for NBN � and that can be passed to the home owner, if they want a pure fibre run.
I would hope the current govt fell for the Telstra claims (otherwise its pure corruption) that all they had to do was drop a (powered) box at each DA, and then the DA had NBN. Well we we all know how that worked out.
Little Steve, I hope some of the stuff you have said is true. Lets hope its a cracker of a policy that will make people vote intelligently. The failure of the NBN in this country thanks to politicians (on both sides) has put this country at a significant disadvantage on so many levels at a time we simply do not need it (Im talking as the worlds largest coal exporter, failure to recognise climate change, etc.).
With the FTTN MTM, the operating costs are higher for NBNCo because they now have to upgrade, maintain and support multiple technologies and not just the single GPON.
The issue with HFC is that just because you have HFC running past premises, does not mean that everyone can be connected to HFC. The HFC network was only designed for something like a 20% take up. So, if you have both Telstra and Optus HFC running past premises, only around 40% of the premises will be able to connect to it before their capacity will be reached.
The result is you end up with having FTTN, and HFC in exactly the same area. Hardly a saving!
I'll go with Telsoc's numbers rather than the NBNCo's.
But much of the Telsoc analysis is based on the Strategic review numbers. You can't have it both ways.
the leaked documentation has shown to go straight to fibre rather than FTTdp is about $200-300 per premises,
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP. Where a new LiC or aerial lead-in is required (~40%) this additional cost must be added.
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP.
do the costs also factor in the price of the GPON to VDSL converter, the premises modem and the premises power injector?
Or are these all on the user pays method?
It also gets murky for FTTdp as most devices seem to have one GPON input and various counts of copper output.
One to one would be easy to swap over to a Fibre lead in, multiple copper port models would require either a network rejig to permit a fibre lead in with more fibre pulled in after build, lots of spare fibre at build or the install of splitters and multiports with spare unused ports
and having the public purse fund most of a network they will own and control.
That's the game...wonder if a few pollies are investing in Telstra.....
If this isnt corruption at federal govt level I dont know what is.
It also gets murky for FTTdp as most devices seem to have one GPON input and various counts of copper output.
I think FTTdp only makes sense if the network architecture supports FTTP migration for all users both on an ad-hoc (on demand) basis and bulk upgrade (switching all remaining FTTdp users). This migration needs to have minimal disruption to services that have not specifically requested the migration.
I've said this before, but will repeat it again... I also think FTTdp is only a viable possibility if the fibre network architecture that feeds it maintains the flexibility of the original design.
If a FTTdp doesn't retain the ability to deliver direct fibre and path diverse products then it will have the same reduced revenue issue that FTTN has, it will just take a bit longer to reach the crunch point.
[edit] Added the point about disruption
But much of the Telsoc analysis is based on the Strategic review numbers. You can't have it both ways.
I can see many references to the SR for FTTN and FTTP costs. Can you point me at the bit in the Telsoc report that gets FTTdp costs from the SR. afaict I am not having it both ways.
The only FTTdp cost I can find in the SR is redacted and refers to a 48 port device 200m from the premises. That is not the FTTdp we are talking about. Is there something else?
edit:
iirc quigley's numbers for the premises connection were $1100-1500. So one pit for four premises is $1600 for FTTdp (Telsoc) versus $4400-6000 for FTTP. That's a saving of $700-1100 per premises.
I guess we will know soon enough what their plans are.
Pre voting is in about two weeks I think, so all policies including NBN will be released before then with time to 'argue' the points. Some 4.5M early votes are expected according to Insiders programme this morning so the last couple of weeks will be interesting for theatrics rather than policy � no new announcements one would expect.
Telstra could take it to the courts, but they'd lose (
They would be more than happy to make a fat financial settlement while parading their well funded and extensive legal team....
I also think FTTdp is only a viable possibility if the fibre network architecture that feeds it maintains the flexibility of the original design.
I think that's the scenario described by Mark Gregory in his articles and WP posts about FTTdp. I'm not a techie but aiui the only difference is instead of a passive optical multiport feeding the premises from the street there is a reverse-powered VDSL device.
This needs to be clarified to say that FttP using an existing LiC is about $200-300 more than FttDP.
Apples for apples, just as with FTTN costing less because only to the node is included in cost with the rest cost shifted if it is to happen any time into the future.
You can't ignore the up front cost to consumers for the leadin component which must be more than $300 so what's the point of doing FTTdp other than satisfying a political standpoint. Seems like simple logic to me.
do the costs also factor in the price of the GPON to VDSL converter, the premises modem and the premises power injector?
Or are these all on the user pays method?
Difficult to know. The FttDp leaked document appears to include CPE in the $729 premises activation costing but this isn't explicitly stated (I think that figure would be too high if CPE were not included) .
Can you point me at the bit in the Telsoc report that gets FTTdp costs from the SR.
It doesn't. It gives a cost from a G.Fast equipment manufacturer of <$300 compared to a FttP cost estimate of >$1500. What is not clear is what these cost estimates include.
The only FTTdp cost I can find in the SR is redacted and refers to a 48 port device 200m from the premises. That is not the FTTdp we are talking about.
Yet that is what the Sckipio costing above seems to be referring to.
From your Telsoc link http://telsoc.org/ajtde/2014-
This bit ...
We need to ask what corresponding costs should be assumed for the parts of the access network not included in Sckipio's final 200m calculations, but it is likely that the cost of FTTdp even in their estimation is not far above that of the $350 to $700 international FTTN range given at page 78 of the NBN Co Strategic Review report.
seems at odds with this bit..
However, the cost of the FTTdp customer connection in the Australian NBN setting involves only a portion of the work performed for the $300 cost suggested by Sckipio above (being supply and installation in the pit of the micro-node device).
iirc quigley's numbers for the premises connection were $1100-1500.
According to Quigley's rebuttal, the average cost of customer connect (on a fully loaded basis) was $1375 when he left. This was increased to $1552 in the FY2015 annual results. Who knows where it is at now.
So one pit for four premises is $1600 for FTTdp (Telsoc)
Does this include CPE? I doubt it at $400 per premises (which is a little over half of the $729 cost from the leaked doc). Is capitalised internal labour included? Please note the first quote from the telsoc document above suggests � but it is likely that the cost of FTTdp even in their estimation is not far above that of the $350 to $700 international FTTN range given at page 78 of the NBN Co Strategic Review report.
That's a saving of $700-1100 per premises.
You can't say what the saving is until you can compare like for like costings.
The leaked FttDp document gives a range of $250 � $2000 depending the state of LiC and how it is replaced if required. The low side is for premises where the LiC is fit for purpose (roughly 60% of brownfields in the FttP footprint so far).
Does this include CPE?
Nope. It's A generous allowance of $800 in equipment costs and $800 for multiple installer visits to the street pit, translates to $1600 in total, for an average of $400 per premises. That has to be compared to the cost of the FTTP multiport and four premise connections an average $1,375 (Quigley). That's a saving of $3,900 for four premises.
I think the cost of the CPE has to be added because it's not reasonable to expect the end customer to provide a modem/router that can support reverse power to the pit. I think the NBNCo would want control over that. The CPE would have to cost ~$600 to get the savings down to the NBNCo's $200-300 though.
You can't say what the saving is until you can compare like for like costings.
I think I am doing like for like costings.
guys billshorten as debate today at 7.30 , do u think he will announce something about the nbn today ?
do u think he will announce something about the nbn today ?
Knowing Politicians, I don't really expect him or anyone else to announce anything about the National Broadband network for a while, sadly despite what the NBN looks like now and the mess it is, it's still not at the top of anyone's lists, but if we see or hear any more NBN from either side of the team then i'll be watching closely.
This was a big infrastructure Project for Australia and it scratches my head as to how something so big get's little so attention (leave out the part where technical people wouldn't understand the NBN) If the NBN was some sort of Highway construction I can bet my Fibre two shoes that Both sides of politics would be taking about it constantly, but a Fibre network for the future? Eh at the bottom of every list at the moment such as it is :(
but he said they will announce the policy next two weeks ! he said that
Politicians make lots of promises and say this and that to the Camera's but what you don't know is whether they are being truthful or not.
Remember how we were all promised 25 Megabits to all premises (or most premises I don't know which way it was) by 2016? Well it's half way through 2016 now and where's the so called "promised" 25 Megabits? Up in thin air of course. I hate to say it but Politicians can't be trusted, it's a very dirty game to see how many sheep they can get to follow them.
If Bill says anything about the NBN then we should count ourselves lucky as for the past 2-3 years NBN hasn't really been at the top of the priority or list of things to speak and talk about.
The CPE would have to cost ~$600 to get the savings down to the NBNCo's $200-300 though.
You do understand that the nbnTM $250 cost differential is against a FttP "Best Case Install", and not the average cost? That is, using an existing fit for purpose LiC, as is said to be the case for ~60% of brownfield premises in the current FttP footprint.
I think I am doing like for like costings.
But one side does not include CPE, and is based on supposedly generous assumptions that are not likely to include 'capitalised internal labor'.
I understand your reluctance to give any credence to nbnTM or even NBNCo figures, however once the makeup of those figures is clearly understood, it would be very surprising to find they are not correct.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
You do understand that the nbnTM $250 cost differential is against a FttP "Best Case Install", and not the average cost? That is, using an existing fit for purpose LiC, as is said to be the case for ~60% of brownfield premises in the current FttP footprint.
Quigley put the cost at $1,100-1,500 (iirc). So we compare $400 (Telsoc) + CPE to $1,100 for FTTP. For the difference to be just $250 the CPE would have to cost $450. I don't believe it.
But one side does not include CPE, and is based on supposedly generous assumptions that are not likely to include 'capitalised internal labor'.
I'm using Quigley's numbers which didn't include all the later 'add ons'. I think that's like for like.
I understand your reluctance to give any credence to nbnTM or even NBNCo figures, however once the makeup of those figures is clearly understood, it would be very surprising to find they are not correct.
Are you prepared to apply that logic to the strategic review and the cost-benefit analysis? I'm not. I think the NBNCo has manufactured figures to fit the argument, ie. FTTN is the way to go.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
Not with estimates like this.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute. I don't think this government would.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute. I don't think this government would.
the current one may not, but if Labor do get in then they may.
The Liberals overturned so many "conventions" in this term that it wouldn't surprise me if some action was not taken on many things not just NBN Co Limited.
And the Previous Government Cabinet discussions and other documents now seem open game for Royal Commissions
If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
Except that NBN has already contractors out and about in SA and WA installing HFC lead-ins and even reports of HFC infill as part of the current HFC Build. If Labor do order a cease and desist this is certainly a waste of taxpayer money (but no different to those HFC areas that underwent unnecessary pit and duct remediation for FTTP and then were culled from the map, like 6APP-05, see http://blog.jxeeno.com/nbn-co
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But this would depend on the willingness of somebody to actually prosecute
The AFP? :)
the current one may not, but if Labor do get in then they may.
I think Labor will do a number of 'independent reviews' that come up with different numbers and a different solution. Then everyone will change ends and the arguing will continue. The big difference this time is they're not starting from scratch so they should get things done quite quickly.
And the Previous Government Cabinet discussions and other documents now seem open game for Royal Commissions
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
If Labor are to win on July 2, there will be no obligation to take on Telstra HFC.
HFC is not the great saviour of the NBN. It has a limited capacity because of its design. The thing is that Telstra HFC is also generally in the same area as Optus HFC, so it is not as though it will cover a greater area. In fact FTTN is have to be used to fill in the shortfall.
It looks like Labor are trying to make the NBN an election issue.
Tanya Plibersek posted this video on Facebook today
https://www.facebook.co
#NBNfails
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
I understand what you mean here. And if there was some way to ensure the LNP would never do such a thing in the future it would be good to make an end of it for the very reason you allude to: that a political RC is a bad thing.
It must, of course, be said there is no way to ensure the LNP wouldn't do it again, so Labor not doing it would be to give the LNP a weapon that only they would use. There's no point in Labor playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules if the LNP won't. Nor is there any point in Labor setting an example because the LNP won't see it that way; they would see it as political weakness to not play dirty. In my opinion, of course.
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government. In the case of so many things to do with the MTM fiasco I believe there may be just cause for an RC.
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
That is why you engage a number of consultants to contribute to your reviews, and you tell them what you want to find. That way no single person owns or is responsible for the conclusions.
You also do these reviews as early as possible, so you can load up the existing technology with "Actuals" including trials and prior to efficiency gains. Then you use "blue sky" assumptions for your preferred technologies as there is no possibility of actuals being available.
Oh, and when it comes to CPP calculations, you load prior technologies with the all the costs of trials and early builds where the best approach was still being assessed. You also load it up with the legal settlement costs for abandoning FTTP contracts.
But when it comes to changing access technologies, you don't book the IT system changes required against the new access technologies CPP but instead across the entire build. This lets you book an extra $1b against mostly FTTP as HFC and FTTN have rolled out to sweet FA premises.
So yeah, I think it is possible for them to cook the books and I do believe they have. But I suspect it may not be prosecutable, just that it wouldn't pass the pub test.
I've said this before, but I would be really interested in hearing what Rue's honest advice would be for a changed government without Bill Morrow sitting next to him at the table.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government.
I've never believed the corruption stuff. I think the MTM is just bad policy badly executed. I think Labor will have a RC into the finance sector, including the regulators. I don't think they'll also have one into Turnbull's ego. I think they can make the point much better by just getting the NBN back on track.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Perhaps RCs, even if they do have political overtones, are still warranted if there is a reasonable indication of corruption within the previous government. In the case of so many things to do with the MTM fiasco I believe there may be just cause for an RC
Malcolm had to come up with a non FTTP NBN proposal to keep his portfolio (and membership) in the TA LNP.
Once the coup happened, he could hardly go back and change it, as he would lose all remaining credibility. So we have bad and horrendously expensive policy perpetuated so he can keep his position.
No conspiracy, just a severe case of lack of vision by TA and MT. MT should have thought about what would happen if he had to implement his policy.
Of course the nbn sale after the election may be a different thing. All MT.
It would help if Labor came out with a detailed policy
In light of the AFP raids and the subsequent document 'distribution', should we be asking Bill or Malcolm what that policy is?
I think the MTM is just bad policy badly executed
And how do you account for the fraudulent reports and reviews then? Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals corruption in my book.
Quigley put the cost at $1,100-1,500 (iirc).
Quigleys evidence to the senate on the 19/04/13 was that estimated at completion (EAC) of volume sites was inline with the 2102 Corporate plan @ $1100.
His $1375 figure includes the 'capitalised internal labour' cost to present a like for like comparison to figures nbnTM were quoting, and may include premises outside the volume sites.
So we compare $400 (Telsoc) + CPE to $1,100 for FTTP. For the difference to be just $250 the CPE would have to cost $450.
No because the $250 differential claims are for FttDp costs of $729 (actually these can really only be categorised as estimates) made against the low end FttP costs at $977. Once again � it is not clear whether any of these costs are 'fully loaded'.
The $1100 cost for FttP is an EAC average across the FttP footprint that is not 'fully loaded'.
The $400 (Telsoc) cost is a guestimate, based on a 'generous allowance' being added to a manufacturers cost estimate which includes zero detail of what it actually entails.
Are you prepared to apply that logic to the strategic review and the cost-benefit analysis? I'm not. I think
the NBNCo has manufactured figures to fit the argument, ie. FTTN is the way to go.
Of course not. There are serious problems with the SR numbers. I agree that management has manufactured figures to suit their agenda. However, I don't believe they have misreported actuals. Here are a couple of examples from that document which are germane to our current discussion.
Page 62 � Exhibit 2-26:
LNDN Cost per premises:
CP2012 = 1054
Current Normalised* EAC = 1383 *(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
Revised Outlook = 1997 � WTF??? Why you ask? � Because REDACTED
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
Demand Drops:
CP2012 = 344
Current LTD = 763 � This seems to be a blowout
Revised Outlook = 786 � That is not a huge increase on the LTD, but this is being phased out
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
Bulk/Build Drops:
CP2012 = 328
Current LTD = 314
Revised Outlook = 682 � WTF??? Why you ask? � No reason given
Page 65 � Exhibit 2-28:
In Premises Only:
CP2012 = 408
Current LTD = 433
Revised Outlook = 537 � WTF??? Why you ask? � No reason given and suggestions from the FttDp leaked doc suggest it might be 320 in their current thinking.
Reporting of actuals for the build is littered with qualifiers. There was a report to the parliamentary joint committee by NBNCo on 19/04/13 that showed that actuals for the various early release sites and Type 1 and Type 2 architecture sites for the LNDN, and Customer connect actuals for the initial sites and the volume sites. It should be noted that this document states that the Customer Connect figure for volume sites @ $1100 was for demand drop installs which also included Battery Backup units and Telstra Lead-in acquisition costs.
Not with estimates like this.
Not for estimates perhaps, but for actual figures I think you will find there are.
I need a shower after diving back into the Strategic Review.
guys billshorten as debate today at 7.30 , do u think he will announce something about the nbn today
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
And how do you account for the fraudulent reports and reviews then? Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals corruption in my book.
Yep, the situation around the reports and reviews seems really fishy. I think those probably are essentially fraudulent. Those were mostly all commissioned by the federal Comms department (i.e Turnbull) though.
Bill and the rest of Malcolm's handpicked management I don't think are really corrupt though. Mainly just incompetent and beholden to the findings of the dodgy reports.
Oh, and when it comes to CPP calculations, you load prior technologies with the all the costs of trials and early builds where the best approach was still being assessed.
I understand that and was alluding to it in my previous post here.
Page 62 � Exhibit 2-26:
LNDN Cost per premises:
CP2012 = 1054 **According to the document I am referring to below this figure is actually 1200 (1150 � 1250)
Current Normalised* EAC = 1383 *(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
Revised Outlook = 1997 � WTF??? Why you ask? � Because REDACTED
It is this rider which requires further clarification
*(Excludes early release and Tas First release sites)
I also mentioned the report to the parliamentary joint committee by NBNCo on 19/04/13 that showed that actuals for the various early release sites and Type 1 and Type 2 architecture sites for the LNDN.
That document listed the following distinct rollout types (if I can call them that) and LNDN costs (Rounded to the nearest 100):
Tasmania Pre-Release Actual = 5000
Tasmania Stage 2 Actual = 4000
First Release Sites Actual = 3100 (Mainland?)
Type 1 In Service EAC = 1800
Type 2 In Service EAC = 1200
FSAMs Work Commenced EAC = 1100 � 1400
2012/15 Corp Plan FY2013 = 1200
According to me, the wording of the Strategic Review is ambiguous enough to allow management to use costs from the the Type 1 and Type 2 architecture FSAMs at least and possibly even the First Release Sites also.
So yeah, I think it is possible for them to cook the books and I do believe they have.
Once again I think they have been very careful to ensure figures they referred to as 'Actuals' are in fact accurate. The 'fully loaded' costings they refer to are a case in point. The accounting treatment is different, but in no way is it illegal.
EDIT: It is ethically questionable when this figure is knowingly compared to one that has been calculated in a different way, but not illegal.
This is a perfect example of Turnbulls' lack of moral compass.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
No question asked on nbn subject but Bill did mention they would reign in the rollout delays and cost in his closing speech. That is all I heard.
Written by mates with predetermined outcomes equals ...
... politics. Both sides. Sad, but that's how I see it.
I need a shower after diving back into the Strategic Review.
I'm really sorry about this. I didn't mean to start a detailed debate. I just didn't believe FTTdp is $250 per premises less than FTTP. I do believe they've skewed the figures to make FTTN look better.
Quigleys evidence to the senate on the 19/04/13 was that estimated at completion (EAC) of volume sites was inline with the 2102 Corporate plan @ $1100.
Yep, my fault. The $1,100-1,400 was for fibre down the street. The premises connection was $1,100 as you say.
(wrong button) edit:
Here are a couple of examples from that document which are germane to our current discussion.
So the premises connection is either $736 or $747 or $1,219 (wtf) depending on which numbers you use. If the first two are right then I'll have to accept the $250-300 difference.
... politics. Both sides. Sad, but that's how I see it.
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
I'm really sorry about this. I didn't mean to start a detailed debate.
No need to apologise, it is from such detailed analysis that everyones understanding is improved. I know mine is when I have to document the arguments I think are valid.
I just don't believe FTTdp is $250 per premises less than FTTP.
As I said, the reality is not that FttDp is $250 less than FttP 'on average' (as is perhaps being claimed by some).
It is that FttDp may be ~$250 less than the FttP 'best case install' scenario.
The sckipio website has this to say regarding comparisons to FttP.
Unfortunately, the cost to implement fiber all the way to a consumer�s home can be very substantial � as much as $4,000 per subscriber. Most of this cost relates to trenches that need to be dug between the curb and the home and other home installation costs. (my italics)
This is not the case if there is a fibre path to the premises using existing infrastructure, as is the case for ~60% of the current FttP brownfields footprint.
With regard to the leaked document FttDp costings, given a trial size of 1, any figures for FttDp from nbnTM must be considered for what they are � estimates.
Given the timing of the leaked document (02/02/15), and the lack of certainty regarding the configuration of the solutions being investigated (let alone settled on), it is difficult to see how they have arrived at a number which ends in a 9 for the proposed customer connect cost.
EDIT:
So the premises connection is either $736 or $747 or $1,219 (wtf) depending on which numbers you use. If the first two are right then I'll have to accept the $250-300 difference.
No, the numbers I quoted from the strategic review indicate*:
'Demand Drop' was 1196 LTD and would become 1323 in the revised outlook.
'Build/Bulk Drop' was 747 LTD and would become 1115 in the revised outlook.
*(Provided the redacted line in the table does not have a material effect on the numbers we are discussing)
Aren't there significant penalties for GBE office holders cooking the books?
It would seem a good bet that would only be applicable if there was a change of govt going by past history since last election....no faith at all for any accountability what so ever...
I think the politically motivated Royal Commissions were the most disgraceful acts of the Abbott government. I hope Labor don't stoop as low.
The motivation is what makes them low...This nbn MTM farce speaks for itself and is clearly documented with Turnbull's hand on helm...regardless of fault shift to NBN Co...
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
nailed it.
What politics did you see in the recommendations of the expert panel?
I was thinking of the Implementation Study which said Labor could build their NBN for almost exactly the same price, $42.8bn versus $43bn, in competition with Optus and Telstra. That looked a bit convenient at the time and looked even more dodgy when Conroy later decided to pay Telstra ~$90bn over 30 years.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
AS usual Zealot you only see what you want to see and usually that's usually the the part you want to see. I suuggest you get on iView and take anther look. SHorten does raise NBN in his closing speech.
If we apply the usual logic you and Kingy do the lack of reference to NBN by Turnbull must mean he is hiding and very reluctant to talk about NBN because of great embarrassment with the lack of performance and failure of FTTN....
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
The nbn did not even get a mention from what I see.
That doesn't mean it's not an election issue � if anything it's now a bigger issue thanks to the LNP raids.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor says they want to roll out more Fibre then they need to prove how much it will cost.
Who still haven't acknowledged the cost and time blow outs.
The LNP promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 � it's been linked to before and I'll do it again:
http://www.abc.net.au/mediaw
Does this standard also apply to the LNP?
What do you think about their cost blow out?
I guess it doesn't matter as the NBN has hit all the "revised" targets � it's just a pity that 95% of connections are on fttp.
I guess the 2016 promise isn't real either.
SHorten does raise NBN in his closing speech.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
For me, Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though. So far, Labor has campaigned on claimed government cover ups, cost blow outs and delays. If fibre is the way to go then I would have expected that Labor would be talking more about the economic benefits of FTTP and and the need to recover lost economic opportunity.
If we apply the usual logic you and Kingy do the lack of reference to NBN by Turnbull must mean he is hiding and very reluctant to talk about NBN
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known. Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative. Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM
You logic is bad, I suggest you revisit it and note where you went wrong.
Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though
You don't? How about Nodelotto, what's fair about that? How about the digital divide? Also unfair.
economic benefits of FTTP and and the need to recover lost economic opportunity
Still early days yet.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
No one can "improve" the MTM. The only way to improve it is to get rid of it.
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known.
And yet they refuse to talk about it, to address the cost blow outs, the delays, the moving goal posts and the missed targets. Because they know it's a dud, they're just hoping Australia doesn't find out in time.
Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
It's likely too late for a complete switch, labor need to find out what the details of all the deals are before they can present any viable solution.
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
Which they can't realistically do until they have all the details. Details which NBN co and the govt. aren't providing.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
That's wishful thinking on your part, but the fact is that the MTM doesn't need to be improved � it needs to be replaced.
For me, Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though.
Really? You're unfamiliar with the concept of "the haves and the have-nots", and you're unfamiliar with node lotto?
The MTM has been policy since December 2013. It's already well known.
It's already well known for not meeting even one of its policy objectives.
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
There is no such thing as the Coalition's NBN!
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
Of course we can � the MTM is a failure and can be improved on several ways.
The only way to improve it is to get rid of it.
Obviously the Labor party will not do that. Makes a mockery of their anger over costs and delays.
And yet they refuse to talk about it
Scrutiny of the NBN happens at parliamentary committees and is also discussed in mainstream media when financial reports are released. It's as if Bill Shorten just found out about the NBN.
It's likely too late for a complete switch
Not if fibre is the only way to go.
Details which NBN co and the govt. aren't providing.
There were leaks. If those leaks are credible then Labor should have more than enough information to form policy.
Makes a mockery of their anger over costs and delays.
Blaming the ALP for the LNP's mistakes � again.
Malcolm promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs minimum for all by 2016 � he has failed on all counts.
The ALP can announce whatever they want � as long as the cost overrun isn't doubled then the LNP have nothing to complain about � especially as thanks to their "solution" it may have to now be brought onto budget.
Why are we so concerned about the cost of the nbn anyway � it's a network that will pay for itself many times over just as the copper can has.
The nbn will cost around the same amount as the gold plating of the energy networks � unlike those it will add to the gdp of the country.
If it's a "it's only for leisure purposes" then the same argument could be used against roads, rail, television, radio and the copper can.
If it's a "private does it better" argument � the fact that the copper/hfc networks are so degraded and the fact that both hfc networks were not finished demonstrates that infrastructure competition does not work.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If Labor says they want to roll out more Fibre then they need to prove how much it will cost.
You mean like the LNP not disclosing that it would be paying Telstra and Optus billions of dollars for access to their HFC network and degraded copper network that Telstra was paid to shut down?
Or the fact that NBNCo has purchased many tens of thousands of dollars worth of copper that it will use to replace major parts of the degraded copper network they paid for?
Or that by implementing the discredited MTM, NBNCo now has to maintain and upgrade a complex network comprising up to 5 different technologies instead of just one technology with the GPON it shut down?
Once again the LNP supporters are blaming the ALP and (yet again) ignoring the issues with their own solution.
The LNP have nothing on this � they've created the mess and it will have serious consequences for years to come.
I hope protecting Rupert's interest was worth it.
the MTM is a failure and can be improved on several ways.
We still have to hear from Labor on that. How is it that that whirlpoolians can talk about the HFC rollout and cost per premises (in the last few pages of this very thread no less!) in great detail but Jason Clare can't? In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
The ALP can announce whatever they want � as long as the cost overrun isn't doubled then the LNP have nothing to complain about � especially as thanks to their "solution" it may have to now be brought onto budget.
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
You mean like the LNP not disclosing that it would be paying Telstra and Optus billions of dollars for access to their HFC network and degraded copper network that Telstra was paid to shut down?
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
The LNP promised 29.5 billion for 25mbs by 2016 � it's been linked to before and I'll do it again:
http://www.abc.net.au/media
Not too sure what you are talking about, this is the Labor thread.
I hope protecting Rupert's interest was worth it.
Rupert�s lackey�s are always proud of their work, especially when it screws up any progress in this country.
here is no such thing as the Coalition's NBN!
Yup
LNP slimebulls mess.
Just dandy. :0<
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense????
Is it commonsense to pay for a network that needed to be upgraded without actually knowing the state of the network?
Is it commonsense to purchase a network that has limited connectivity and needs a major upgrade to come close to what is promised for the NBN?
Is it commonsense to purchase networks from two competitors where the networks overlay each other?
Is it commonsense to place an ongoing financial burden on NBNCo to install, maintain and upgrade multiple technologies instead of a single one?
Apparently, the LNP proponents of the MTM NBN do not have this thing called commonsense.
From that we can conclude that Labor doesn't have any plan to improve the MTM.
Only you could come to that conclusion Kingy other than zealot maybe. Turnbull certainly didn't as he is mute on anything NBN at all.
Shorten's main theme last night was about fairness. I don't know how the NBN fits into that though.
Fairness eh? What is fair about going to the last election with many promises and breaking almost all � in particular NBN...$29.5B fully costed now $56+B and growing, ready to go but 2 � years to start anything other than FTTP etc and then that is a failure with 25MB/s at least by 2016, now impossible. WOW ...that's all about fairness to the Australian public, eh?
Labor either continues on with the Coalition's NBN or they must propose another alternative.
If you haven't noticed Labor put a plan into place in 2010 � FTTP. That is their Plan and I'd suggest it just needs to be rejigged to bring to a halt the LNP MTM total failure...that is far from an alternative. NO new world solution needed when it is all there, just how you do it. You will just have to wait until Labor tell you Kingy, they work to their agenda not yours... can you wait a couple of weeks?
Apparently, the LNP proponents of the MTM NBN do not have this thing called commonsense.
Common sense is becoming an extinct commodity now.
LNP proves how they can destroy all factors of common sense with their MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Not too sure what you are talking about, this is the Labor thread.
Nice diversion � but it still doesn't answer the question.
You are attacking the ALP and yet you haven't acknowledged the issues with the MTM.
If the ALP's rollout costs 10-15 billion more, but has a return on investment that's 3-4 times as much you will still pick holes in it.
The ALP rollout wasn't perfect, but it didn't double the costs and time frames and could give users a minimum speed.
As for HFC � it all depends on what the LNP have signed.
I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
nothing odd about it. you seem to think its the ALP that are in government over the last 3 years. HINT: Its the LNP thats in power, DH!
Obviously the Labor party will not do that.
What's obvious to you is not obvious to anyone outside the Liberal party.
Scrutiny of the NBN happens at parliamentary committees
You're not seriously suggesting that nbn�'s performance at parliamentary committees has been open, honest and transparent are you?
There were leaks. If those leaks are credible then Labor should have more than enough information to form policy.
LOL, tell that to Ziggy who claims they are stolen misinformation.
Is it commonsense to pay for a network that needed to be upgraded without actually knowing the state of the network?
Is it commonsense to purchase a network that has limited connectivity and needs a major upgrade to come close to what is promised for the NBN?
Is it commonsense to purchase networks from two competitors where the networks overlay each other?
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra.
Is it commonsense to place an ongoing financial burden on NBNCo to install, maintain and upgrade multiple technologies instead of a single one?
No need to get angry. Labor has been very quiet on the HFC deals and they initiated the process to pay off Telstra and Optus.
The HFC network will have north of 3M premises it covers 30% of Australian premises
3M * 4000 per premise for FTTH is $12B to replace the HFC network with FTTP, likely a lot more.
That $12B is a burden as it will incur interest costs, upgrading HFC will be less of a burden as it will cost far less.
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
We still have to hear from Labor on that
Speaking of hearing from Labor ... you have forgotten ... these are politicians we're talking about. And this is during an election campaign. They choose when to release their polcies ... not you.
In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN.
That's hilarious, considering you didn't cast that sort of scrutiny over the lack of Coalition solutions over the term of the Labor government ... which is ... they had no policy until just before the election.
It is interesting to hear you bleat about Labor's lack of speech when you had no problems with the other side last time.
Just the usual KingForce double standards eh?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
That is impossible.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense says you don't try to "upgrade" end of life infrastructure when you can get a better result much cheaper with a replacement.
Not too sure what you are talking about
We are talking about your claims that nbn� are doing a good job when they have failed to meet every election promise.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra.
That is a blatant lie.
No need to get angry.
There is every need to get angry with this negligent waste of money.
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
You're living in an alternate reality world � in the real world, HFC networks are being replaced with FTTP because the HFC costs a fortune to maintain and cannot deliver the speeds (and revenue) required.
You're living in an alternate reality world � in the real world, HFC networks are being replaced with FTTP because the HFC costs a fortune to maintain and cannot deliver the speeds (and revenue) required.
Hell, in quite a few areas, even NBN co is replacing the HFC. There are significant overbuilds of the Optus HFC, with FTTN!
https://twitter.com/DCoopes/status/733940743803260928
The whole shebang is a mess. Ok, Labor need to release their policy, but they'll do it in their own time, because no matter what they release, they will face a very hostile media. But the libs need to state their policies, because whoever is in, is going to need to fix something.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
Can you point to anyone anywhere buying an HFC network (or copper network) for them to upgrade or "fine-tune"?
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded
Please provide a source for this opinion.
HFC is a good technology, however in Australia the network's are outdated and Optus has issues with congestion and degradation.
The nbn has changed some areas from hfc to fttn.
Whirlpool believes that the only sensible economic alternative is an immediate switch to a full fibre rollout.
Only in your reality. Whirlpool recognizes the mess Turnbull has made with his MTM policy, and the serious delays his policy has caused, and know the pragmatic approach will be to make the most of the crap pile Turnbull has left and implement measures that will actually move us to fibre. This will entail changing some area where FTTN has not started yet to FTTdp or FTTP, and providing the poor suckers with FTTN a planned and costed upgrade path to FTTP. There should also be a plan put in place to get HFC people onto FTTP as well. Turnbull is doing none of those things.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
Justify that statement and please don't use NBN Co discredited SR and CBA data as that is clearly false.... waste of time.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense, eh? Walk us through that taking into account more than just up front costs.....
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
You and Kingy are really, really stressing over this ....why?
We still have to hear from Labor on that. How is it that that whirlpoolians can talk about the HFC rollout and cost per premises (in the last few pages of this very thread no less!) in great detail but Jason Clare can't? In the years since he's been spokesman, I haven't heard Clare say one thing about how or why HFC should be deployed within the NBN. How odd is that?
Maybe you need to get through your head.
"HFC was Liberals Ideas."
Repeat after me. "HFC was Liberals Ideas."
Clare never intended or wanted to put in obsolete technologies such as FTTN or HFC.
Sorry but you can't blame Labor for Liberals Flap ups.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are the ones who paid out both Optus and Telstra
This is not the same thing and you know it. Both Optus and Telstra were paid compensation for them moving their Internet customers over from HFC to the FTTP NBN. It is the LNP who then paid even more for access to the HFC to deliver the discredited MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
How can you speak for Labor when they havn't announced anything. Also the Liberal initiated AFP raid sealed their docs.
ALP will announce their NBN policy when its ready SoonTM.
Anything else you say is just noise and should be ignored until the policy is announced.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
If the ALP announce they will roll more Fiber then it will be more expensive than the current MTM.
That's not the important measure though. You should ask which is more cost-effective.
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
Common sense is a poor indicator of anything. Let's start with what we're trying to achieve and then do a proper comparison.
Labor has been a little quiet on HFC which is an indicator that HFC will be retained.
I hope they will at least look at it as potentially a cost-effective interim solution. That shouldn't take long given all the design work that's been done for the MTM.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
3M * 4000 per premise for FTTH is $12B to replace the HFC network with FTTP, likely a lot more.
You are being a little disingenuous there aren't you mate?
It costs $2150 per premises under NBN Co's estimate to activate a HFC premises. That is $5.55b the difference not $12b, but seeing as you are so concerned about the cost of servicing the extra debt, the 10 year bond coupon rate right now is 4.25%, lets call it 5% because I'm feeling generous to you today. That is $2.775 billion over the 10 years of the bond.
It costs $319 per premises passed per year to maintain the HFC network, but only costs $88 per premises passed per year to maintain the FTTP network, thats a difference of $231 per premises per year. Thats a cost of 693 million per year extra to keep that HFC network running, or over the 10 years $6.93 billion. It looks to be that the debt bill is already covered.
But for some reason I still feel like being nice to you, because what about the lost revenue for the 2 years longer that has been estimated for HFC areas to be replaced. Lets have a look at that then too. NBN co estimate that HFC will bring in an ARPU of $41.37 per month averaged over a 3 year period. Over the 10 years thats 4900 and something, but lets call it $5000 because again I'm feeling generous. That brings in $15 billion, that does not cover the $6.45 billion to bring the HFC network into NBN control, and the $9.57 billion ($319 * 3 million premises * 10 years) in operating costs. The interest also hasn't been paid. Lets see how we go with the FTTP build
Lets look at NBN Co's revenue prediction for FTTP in those HFC areas. I'll give 2 full years of no revenue to FTTP because while the first areas will come up rather quickly, I believe from the data David Cooper has processed the process is down to about 9 months, and multiple SAMs will come up at the same time, but the last ones won't come up until after the 2 years so the revenue will come close to balancing it out. The revenue is slightly higher at $48.75 according to NBN Co's numbers. That comes out at $4680 per premises passed over the 10 years, including 2 years of no revenue. This gives us a total revenue of $14.04 billion over the 10 years, indeed lower than the HFC option. This also doesn't cover the $12b to build the network, and $2.64 billion to maintain it, but has still cost less overall.
You may be right, the interest has tipped the balance in favour of HFC, except... I used favourable rounding for HFC and unfavourable rounding for FTTP, and operating costs were included for the whole 10 years, which also wouldn't be accurate, but I'm not going to bother redoing those figures to try and make FTTP look more favourable, and there is also an assumption that from day 1 the HFC network is magically operating and moves through to full subscriber count. This is unlikely to be the case, but again, I'm not going to manipulate assumptions so I can get FTTP vs HFC numbers in my favour.
My question to you is which is more desirable? $1.02b deficit between revenue and build/opex cost plus the interest on the bonds for HFC, or $600 million deficit between revenue and build/opex costs plus the interest on bonds for FTTP? The total build and opex cost for HFC over 10 years is $16.02 billion, but for FTTP is $14.64 billion. Given the peak funding requirement to be able to cover HFC, given at the end of the 10 years it still hasn't paid off its bill either, that the $2.775billion in extra interest is really going to matter because you are going to need that for HFC too.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Common sense says replacing the entire HFC network with FTTP will be a lot more expensive than upgrading or finetuning.
LOL fine tuning.
Seriously you need to get a grip.
There's nothing about fine tuning in HFC, Its a complete rebuild in most areas of Sydney where Optus Cable TV runs. It doesn't even deliver Internet services.
Based on the very foundation that Cable TV networks were originally designed for One way TV transmissions. DOCSIS was a hack to make it carry internet. DOCSIS 3.1 is still being developed and will cost more than just to move on and roll out FTTP.
Lets face it, Liberals just bought a junk status (End of life network) from both Telstra and Optus. This is sheer negligence and incompetence and should be brought into question by the public.
This is not the same thing and you know it. Both Optus and Telstra were paid compensation for them moving their Internet customers over from HFC to the FTTP NBN. It is the LNP who then paid even more for access to the HFC to deliver the discredited MTM.
So the NBN Co back in the day signed a $9 Billion deal with Telstra to get access to their pits, dark fibre and exchange and Telstra agreed to "disconnect" its customers from copper and HFC and move them to FTTTP and also in the deal, Telstra would not be able to market their mobile network as an alternative to the NBN for a number of years and they (NBN Co) paid Optus $800 million to take their HFC and get their users off HFC to FTTP.
When the Libs came in and launched their MTM fraudband...went back to Telstra and signed a deal for Telstra to maintain their copper network (for the FTTN rollout and HFC) and from memory the Libs/NBN paid the same price Labor paid for this to happen and I believe Optus payment was slightly lower than what Labor gave
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
No need to get angry.
I'd suggest zealot that if you read anger in that response to you it may well reflect your perception or state rather than cloister's. They were articulate questions, repetitive maybe but fair questions relevant to HFC and nbn.
I note the poster's response to your comment doesn't enter into anything argumentative....says a bit...
upgrading HFC will be less of a burden as it will cost far less.
broaden your horizons past the immediate Zealot do your costing over life of technology and compare revenue potential over 30+years and then talk cost benefit...that ignores potential capability of each network. Only conclusion can be HFC is a dud....
When the Libs came in and launched their MTM fraudband...went back to Telstra and signed a deal for Telstra to maintain their copper network (for the FTTN rollout and HFC) and from memory the Libs/NBN paid the same price Labor paid for this to happen
No, in addition to shifting costs from Telstra to NBNCo as part of the revised deal, Telstra have received billions of dollars worth of no-bid contracts as a direct result of signing the revised deal.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
All around the world HFC networks have been upgraded or fine-tuned to deliver fast broadband and that's why Labor or the Coalition will retain the HFC network for decades to come.
You call an extra $1.x billion dollars (on top of the $11 billion we're giving Telstra) to make the HFC network fit for purpose ... "fine-tuning" ?
What a ridiculous notion you have there, particularly the "decades to come" drivel. I challenge you to find any reputable source that claims exactly what you just said.
I challenge you to find any reputable source that claims exactly what you just said.
They never provide a source � they assume their opinion is fact.
The ALP will announce their policy soon � why is their any panic over this?
The ALP will announce their policy soon � why is their any panic over this?
They want time to pick it to pieces..
They want time to pick it to pieces..
Which is funny as the LNP have royally screwed up.
Whatever they do, it will be better than the MTM.
Little Steve did a nice number on the estimates. I will just remind one and all that NBN HFC unlike NBN FTTN or FTTP is really novel compared to most world deployment since it will be one of the few that will attempt to:
- have 100% of premises actively connected to HFC for all their phone and broadband needs
- provide a wholesale access regime with consequent overheads
- deploy and rely on D3.1 (EDIT: which by all accounts may be more expensive to do properly than first realised) in order to resolve issues with the severely limited upstream capacity available with D3.0 so HFC can compete with FTTP (and believe it or not FTTN!)
And on top of this we need to remember the unknown extra costs with NBN HFC:
- how many cable lead-ins to premises are required? In 6APP there is a post that 30% of premises required lead-ins, not too bad but no idea how many of these were in the too-hard basket for Telstra/Foxtel.
- how many streets will require HFC infill? In 6APP there was a report confirming one street in an HFC area which had no cable, so infill will be necessary. How many other streets littered in an HFC areas were missed by Telstra?
For Labor the real question is whether they aware of the risks keeping the NBN HFC especially the point of no return when NBN take over the Telstra HFC for the first time. To be honest I would rather HFC areas be left alone and wait for a proper FTTP replacement, perhaps a deal to share revenue with Telstra if HFC areas are the last to get FTTP (so Telstra can milk it some more) and Telstra uncap the upstream (e.g. 35/5 and 100/10 are reasonable) with NBN paying Telstra to maintain and upgrade the HFC network to relieve any congestion as they have been doing recently.
how many streets will require HFC infill? In 6APP there was a report confirming one street in an HFC area which had no cable, so infill will be necessary. How many other streets littered in an HFC areas were missed by Telstra?
They are doing that with fttn rather than hfc
When the Libs came in and launched their MTM fraudband...went back to Telstra and signed a deal for Telstra to maintain their copper network (for the FTTN rollout and HFC)
Telstra to maintain the copper, but at cost to NBN. The copper is now NBN's responsibility. As is all of the asbestos in the pits. That deal, is possibly the worst commercial deal ever made in the history of our government. Why would you take on a copper network, which at the time was of 'unknown quality' � with most reports siding with "pretty bad" compounded with the fact that its full of asbestos?
Previously, the ducts were Telstra's responsibility and cost issue.
Telstra to maintain the copper, but at cost to NBN. The copper is now NBN's responsibility. As is all of the asbestos in the pits. That deal, is possibly the worst commercial deal ever made in the history of our government. Why would you take on a copper network, which at the time was of 'unknown quality' � with most reports siding with "pretty bad" compounded with the fact that its full of asbestos?
Previously, the ducts were Telstra's responsibility and cost issue.
Because Tony Abbott was hellbent on destroying the NBN as we knew it and wanted to implement their "cheaper", "more affordable" NBN...and destroyed it
And it was a double win for Telstra (where they got money from the Labor government 3 years previous and now got it from the Liberals (via NBN) to basically do a 180...
They are doing that with fttn rather than hfc
Only at the DA level which can comprise several streets. If the granularity is finer than that then NBN has to decide HFC for the whole DA or FTTN for the whole DA. If they decide FTTN and you are one of the few with HFC you won't be none too happy!
NBN has to decide HFC for the whole DA or FTTN for the whole DA. If they decide FTTN and you are one of the few with HFC you won't be none too happy!
I recall PeteP you were in 6SP in a small sector with HFC surrounded by FTTP. Did you end up with FTTP or HFC?...the latter I hope...
recall PeteP you were in 6SP in a small sector with HFC surrounded by FTTP. Did you end up with FTTP or HFC?...the latter I hope..
I was in 6APP-05 (FTTP) now apparently I am in 6APP-61 (HFC). In our HFC exchange area NBNCo decided that 6APP-07 should proceed to FTTP (overbuild the HFC) but not the rest of the area. No(n)sense since 6APP-05 entered Build Prep for FTTP before 6APP-07 but was then removed. If this doesn't reflect how badly mismanaged NBN/MTM is I don't know what will. At least if Labor does the same it will be to delay the Build for an improvement not a degradation!
NBNCo decided that 6APP-07 should proceed to FTTP (overbuild the HFC) but not the rest of the area.
Sorry I messed up my posts I meant hope you got FTTP but it sounds like you are still in limbo really... what a bloody mess. Can't be technology build driven reasons only politic agenda surely.
From Actual Rollout Progress thread : � whrl.pl/ReDjxM
Is there a HFC rollout schedule announced? I thought HFC was on hold.
You are being a little disingenuous there aren't you mate?
It costs $2150 per premises under NBN Co's estimate to activate a HFC premises. That is $5.55b the difference not $12b, but seeing as you are so concerned about the cost of servicing the extra debt, the 10 year bond coupon rate right now is 4.25%, lets call it 5% because I'm feeling generous to you today. That is $2.775 billion over the 10 years of the bond.
A really interesting analysis LS, but I think there are a few minor blunders in it, beyond just being generous. The only one against FTTP is I think an apples with apples comparison of OPEX has HFC at $319pp and FTTP at $266pp, not $88pp as you state. These Opex figures include conduit lease payments to Telstra.
On the other side of the ledger, Zealot and you include the cost of financing the entire CPP, which includes the capitalised/grossed up Telstra conduit leases. Effectively this part of the "build" is lease financed by Telstra, not the taxpayer, so should/do not appear in the Capex nor Peak funding figures. Based on the same source as the Opex and Revenue numbers you've quoted, Capex pp for HFC is $1489, and for FTTP $2550. I'm not making this up BTW, these numbers come from nbn�. I'll leave everyone top speculate as to why nbn� think capex for FTTP in the HFC footprint would be $2500pp and not $4400pp as they keep telling everyone :-).
I make HFC NoP pp at $496-$319=$177 for an RoI of 11.9% FTTP $585-$266=$319 for an ROI of 12.5% (It's actually Cash-on-Cash return, but it's a near enough approximation).
Both of these are more than enough to cover the cost of debt finance at current rates.
Where I think SL has been too generous to the Zealot is assuming the FTTP option has to finance the capex difference over the full 10 years. If FTTP takes longer to come on stream, there will be a commensurate delay in capital expenditure. If you are going to consider the revenue differential over 8 years, the cost of financing should also be considered over the same period. I make the capex difference $1061pp or ~$3bil over 3mil premises.
These are nbn�'s numbers.
Now, I have grave reservations about these HFC projected returns for two main reasons:
1) The idea HFC will be able to maintain market share and revenue without additional Capex over a decade is laughable. (FTTP will have a similar issue too if nbn� persist with 4gpon too BTW)
2) These are Capex numbers are based on averages, and nbn� have already concluded they can't achieve their target CPPs for HFC without doing a significant portion of the infill in FTTN. And the HFC and FTTN footprints don't neatly border DA boundaries. In DAs where they build a node because they are only partially covered by HFC, effectively they are building both techs � or at least paying for both. In other words, they are double counting premises when they state their CPP numbers for different MTM techs. I *think* the way this will play itself out is the HFC footprint will bleed to FTTN, while the total HFC Capex is will remain more or less the same. This will show up as either increased CPP actuals, or a lower uptake rate (given premises passed by both techs would likely only buy one). Either way, I don't believe this has been properly considered by nbn� yet.
IMHO there is some merit in persisting with the HFC build/DS 3.1 upgrade, though it is fairly clearly financially inferior to a straight FTTP overbuild. This is something the US cable operators are currently coming to terms with. In nbn�'s case it really depends on how much capital nbn� have already committed to operation CF as to whether or not i is better to proceed or not.
On the limited evidence available, persisting with the HFC rollout or cancelling it in favour of an FTTP over build are both viable options. But one thing is clear (to me at least): the infill should be FTTP not FTTN. It'll be interesting to see how the ALP proceed on this front if they get the opportunity.
However, on the wealth of evidence available, I think GMZ is being perhaps a touch more than "a little" disingenuous :-).
so delimiter published this article but i cant see any video for bill shorten announcing this !
https://delimiter.com.au/201
so delimiter published this article but i cant see any video for bill shorten announcing this !
The article simply reconfirms my view that Labor are really more interests in political point scoring over the NBN as expected. I can't really blame them since there is little they can really do to change the current MTM without making things worse, other than to say "more fibre" and dangle FTTdp as a solution, which is probably what NBN has in mind anyway in the long term. HFC is off the table since the deal with Telstra has to be examined closely in terms of liabilities if NBN changes its mind again.
labor is taking very long time to release the policy as they said they will announce it next week
labor is taking very long time to release the policy as they said they will announce it next week
They have to play the politics on this one, and they have to do it very carefully, because the instant they announce anything NBN, they are going to face a very hostile News Limited media.
News Ltd has already been extremely hostile towards them regarding NBN, and will only ramp it up on any policy announcement.
Hell, just look around here at some of the Liberal shills for examples of this.
They have to play the politics on this one, and they have to do it very carefully, because the instant they announce anything NBN, they are going to face a very hostile News Limited media.
Exactly.. timing is critical..
News Ltd has already been extremely hostile towards them regarding NBN, and will only ramp it up on any policy announcement.
I'd give the same advice to Federal Labor as I gave to the Federal Coalition in 2013 on a prudent and efficient NBN Policy for an Opposition to take to an election.
Give some very broad intentions, but do not commit to any fuller plan, changes in technologies or costings until post election after the the following info has been provided and assessed.
1. A thorough debriefing from NBN Co Board, Management and staff and the Department of Communications (Blue Book)
2. All existing major CiC contractual agreements have been analysed
3. The currently CiC and not available to the Federal Coalition plans, issues, strengths, weaknesses, risks, threats and opportunities have been reviewed.
A very small target strategy along with a general commitment to roll out more fibre than the Federal Coalition. Particularly in areas that require substantial copper remediation or replacement.
To look at better ways to fast track better broadband in underserved areas.
To completely overhaul the technology change program.
More frequent and transparent public reporting
Less combative Corporate Communications
Stop overbuilding competitor networks
Stop the waste in duplication of infrastructure (i.e TPG FTTB)
so delimiter published this article but i cant see any video for bill shorten announcing this !
Announcing what?
labor is taking very long time to release the policy as they said they will announce it next week
Yep, and some voters will need to start sending in their postal votes soon.
You can see the attacks coming.
"How you going to pay for it?"
"How you going to pay for it?"
Something like the NBN is through usage charges, just like building roads and other infrastructure,
The problem is that there are many accounting "tricks" to make a project look good or bad.
The simplest is to demand an absurdly short amortisation period.
If you want to show a project as bad, you defer income but bring forward expenditure.
If you want to show a project as good, you bring forward income and defer expenditure.
and a whole lot of others to boot!
So, whenever you see numbers thrown around, you always need to make sure that the same accounting basis is being used to get to the numbers.
ep, and some voters will need to start sending in their postal votes soon.
Early voting starts June 14 and some 4.5M voters are expected to do that so Labor is most likely to announce NBN Policy a few days before that at latest.
Early voting starts June 14 and some 4.5M voters are expected to do that so Labor is most likely to announce NBN Policy a few days before that at latest.
And, people will have to vote and post them back pretty well near straight away as it can take up to 2 weeks to get to the AEC with the wonderful Australia Post delivery system.
So, it needs to come out sooner rather than later, and it needs to be repeated otherwise it will be taken as a throw away line.
"How you going to pay for it?"
By not wasting money and resources overbuilding existing good broadband infrastructure.
By not wasting money and resources competing head-on with companies like the Wondercom owned TPG and their FTTB apartment installations.
With a fraction of the additional Company Tax Revenue that will be received from not providing the Company Tax cuts that the Federal Coalition is so recklessly promising.
Ideally for Optus HFC areas, Federals Labor should commit to a full trial in one large enough geographic location.
A trial that includes
1. Removing every single premise from the Copper Network (except some Special Services)
2. In-fill of everyone with HFC or FTTB, including MDU's and businesses.
3. Seeing how much it costs to upgrade the HFC in an attempt to provide non-congested, reliable low latency services during peak hours and all other hours.
Then deciding whether to proceed with using the Optus HFC.
The only thing missing is including Docsis 3.1 in this trial. A technology that is not ready for the market.
Maybe Federal Labor will not even bother getting NBNCo to implement more extensive Optus HFC trials and just announce that all Optus HFC only areas are to get FTTP / FTTB or FTTdp. With the FTTB rollout to be accelerated.
Unfortunately, it has been widely reported that the NBNCo Telstra HFC agreement appears to have clauses in it that commit NBNCo to taking over the Telstra HFC Network, should they start using even one segment of it.
Docsis 3.1 in this trial. A technology that is not ready for the market.
That doesn't stop nbnco from spruiking it as the HFC panacea just round the corner..
At the moment I 110/2 on HFC, libs have stuffed up nbn so bad right now all I hope is they/lab don't stuff my hfc speed up.
At the moment I 110/2 on HFC, libs have stuffed up nbn so bad right now all I hope is they/lab don't stuff my hfc speed up.
That's one of the big risks of the move from Optus/Telstra HFC to NBN HFC.
Minimising disruption, and human and systematic stuff ups in the change process.
Particularly where those that get stuffed in the process, do not see any material benefits from the change, and do not care for any potentially higher upload speeds or give two hoots about the RSP retail choice options from NBN HFC, or are still under contract with their existing HFC ISP.
Not to forget that to get onto NBN HFC, you will not be able to use your existing Optus/Telstra HFC All in one Optus/Telstra supplied Cable Modem/wireless router, as you will be forced to install a new Cable Modem (with no wireless router built-in) to go onto an NBN HFC Service and then have to attach a seperate router/wireless modem of either your choice (within any NBNCo or RSP minimum requirements) or one supplied by your NBN HFC RSP retailer.
The changeover to new modems and wireless/routers for 3-4 million NBN HFC premise in the next 3-4 years is a huge and exercise in itself.
and do not care for any potentially higher upload speeds
exacerbated by the fact that the upstream capacity will be compromised on HFC given the limited spectrum vs every premises connected (every minor ACK upstream packet all adds up)
or give two hoots about the RSP retail choice options from NBN HFC
if you choose NBN HFC for the improved broadband you need a good quality RSP and with such you pay the same as you would with Telstra anyway
as you will be forced to install a new Cable Modem (with no wireless router built-in) to go onto an NBN HFC Service
most critically because you lose your landline you will require the unbridged RSP supplied router for all your landline services (using VoIP). The diehards don't use landline and do everything in data/mobile land so no problem for them; the entry level people are happy with what the RSP provides, the rest of us who want max. flexibility will suffer (RSP routers are locked down, no smart DNS service/routing control/VPN vs no VoIP landline, I want both!).
The changeover to new modems and wireless/routers for 3-4 million NBN HFC premise in the next 3-4 years is a huge and exercise in itself.
And this massively adds to the cost of the process. It wont show in the end reports � but it adds another billion dollars or so to the cost of internet for end users.
The changeover to new modems and wireless/routers for 3-4 million NBN HFC premise in the next 3-4 years is a huge and exercise in itself.
Complicated if there are only D3.0 NBN cable modems available now and then need to be replaced by D3.1 NBN cable modems in 2 years. Of course that assumes NBNCo actually proceeds with upgrade the HFC to D3.1. We need to remember that is a short term just-in-time prudent and efficient company we are dealing with, if NBN HFC with D3.0 holds its own (i.e. premises really only use 12/1 when they sign up for 25/5 plans or greater) then the upgraded to D3.1 will be delayed accordingly until NBN decided it is needed (you know after enough complaints about congestion have been logged into their system).
We need to remember that is a short term just-in-time prudent and efficient company we are dealing with,
prudent and efficient company ........ hahahahahahahaha .....
The ALP can release this in time � if it's not an election issue (as the MTM supporters are reporting) what is the issue?
The ALP can promise 1gb/s for all by 2019 for 56 billion � it doesn't matter if they don't hit the metrics, all that matters is the promise (it would seem).
They should move fttn to fttdp, keep fttp/fttb/sat where they can and I'm not sure what happens with hfc � maybe upgrade it, infill it and then change it over to fttp down the line.
The ALP can promise 1gb/s for all by 2019 for 56 billion
Why only 1GB/s why not 10Gb/s..... surely cost might be the same.
Limited to FTTP services though.... more excellent reason to just do FTTP..
The ALP can promise 1gb/s for all by 2019 for 56 billion � it doesn't matter if they don't hit the metrics, all that matters is the promise (it would seem).
Labor's Policy "should" provide for the delivery of concurrent services across a FTTH network including
a) 1Gbps for "Residential Customers"
b) 10Gbps for "Residential and SME Customers"
and
c 40Gbps" for Enterprise Customers
Across the same piece of Fibre by migrating to the NG-PON2 Standard and where appropriate provision for 80Gbps and beyond for the market in 2020.
And its not like we would be "Robin St Crusoe" in this Endeavor either!
http://advanced-television.c
Labor's Policy "should" provide for the delivery of concurrent services across a FTTH network including
I totally agree � FTTP should be the technology.
However the LNP have screwed this for everyone � thanks to pursuing fttn/hfc.
The reality is that the ALP have to see what the LNP have put in place and plan accordingly.
They have promised more Fibre � what this means is anyone's guess.
They have promised more Fibre
Well's Labor's promise is clearly different to the Liberal's promise, as the liberal's promised less fibre .... which they have delivered .....regardless that it is a poor promise.
However the LNP have screwed this for everyone
Not for everyone, only places where they are on the 3yr plan and have likely moved to Build Commenced. Those not on the 3yr plan should still be good to go for FTTP and those in Build Preparation may be able to move to FTTP.
Ideally Labor should stop rolling out FTTN, move to FTTdP (FTTP would be preferred), not bother with HFC at all, and for those stuck with FTTN they should come out with some form of NTD so that all the user has to worry about is plugging a router in, even if that NTD only has 1 port on it, so long as it is standardised to exactly what NBN require for VDSL2 FTTN.
But that's just my thoughts on the whole thing, there can still be some salvation for those on FTTN (maybe not in the speed area but at least cleaning up the connection to the network side of it so that the whole thing is standardised like it is for FTTP, FW, and Sat).
Ideally Labor should stop rolling out FTTN, move to FTTdP (FTTP would be preferred), not bother with HFC at all, and for those stuck with FTTN they should come out with some form of NTD so that all the user has to worry about is plugging a router in, even if that NTD only has 1 port on it, so long as it is standardised to exactly what NBN require for VDSL2 FTTN.
I totally agree with everything that you have mentioned. The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
I totally agree with everything that you have mentioned. The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go down this road, I'm not really sure how you would make it affordable (maybe user chips in 25% and NBN chips in the other 75%?), or, before NBNCo starts the actual build they send out flyers asking if anybody wants FTTP so that they can factor that into the build process.
It's a tough one really, I mean, at present if you want FTTP (via FOD), the fibre has to go back to either a splitter that feeds that node (which could be several km away) or even further back on the network.
if you want FTTP (via FOD), the fibre has to go back to either a splitter that feeds that node
Exactly..
The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
Exactly!
$500 or $1000 is much more reasonable.
The only thing I would add for existing FTTN areas is to provide a realistic more affordable option for those willing to pay for their own FTTP.
FoD would be expensive and inefficient to perform for individual premises where FTTN has been implemented. More likely that the entire implementation would be replaced by FTTP, however personally I think getting everyone connected ASAP* is more important now than migrating already connected premises to FTTP.
*Preferably via the most cost effective method for long term implementation.
Exactly!
$500 or $1000 is much more reasonable.
...and if there was sufficient interest for an FDH, and enough FDH's in an FSM to justify just doing full FTTP build .......?
The economics and logistics of this is interesting....
*Preferably via the most cost effective method for long term implementation.
With the most cost effective method being ????
With the most cost effective method being ????
Oh for an honest answer to that question.
...and if there was sufficient interest for an FDH, and enough FDH's in an FSM to justify just doing full FTTP build .......?
The economics and logistics of this is interesting....
Yeah, with regards to areas already with FTTN, It would be interesting to see what happens if the majority of a node want FTTH.
With regards to areas that are in Build Preparation (or possibly Build Commenced) if the majority in a node serving area want FTTH then they should just scrap the idea of plonking a node down and redo it as FTTP (an FTD is capable of serving the area of quite a few nodes, so you probably would need more than 1 node area that wants FTTP).
The logistics for what to do would be very interesting indeed, quite honestly, this is probably the way NBNCo should have gone with the MTM, but we all know it would never have flown with the current government.
Change fttn to fttdp and then give users an upgrade choice and be done with it.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go down this road ...
Sounds like the difference between the ALP's NBN and Malcolm's MTM too.
if the majority in a node serving area want FTTH then they should just scrap the idea of plonking a node down and redo it as FTTP
The ideal world IMO but fitting into an overall design would be challenging for NBN CO and politically for Labor. A new regime of NBN Co committed to FTTP would seize the opportunity unless totally unrealistic financially I'm sure. WOuld be worth doing even if a premium is required.
I still contend the starting point for a revised Labor Plan is the $43B of NBN V1 so if $56B was 'acceptable' for FTTN MTM rubbish being delivered now, the margin is there to play with.
$500 or $1000 is much more reasonable
Agree. Personally I would be prepared to fork out anything up to $5000. Anything greater and I'm better off selling the house and moving. In other words take our mate Malcolm's advice. ;)
however personally I think getting everyone connected ASAP* is more important now than migrating already connected premises to FTTP.
Yep agree here too and I've never stated otherwise to happen. I just want a proper more realistic FOD option developed for those of us in FTTN areas that are willing to pay for it. The current "technology switch" process through NBN is a complete expensive joke.
and for those stuck with FTTN they should come out with some form of NTD so that all the user has to worry about is plugging a router in, even if that NTD only has 1 port on it, so long as it is standardised to exactly what NBN require for VDSL2 FTTN.
Getting back to this point, this is the very first thing that I would like to see happen for those FTTN areas that have progressed too far to be cancelled. It's complete nonsense how a end user has to stuff around organizing their own VDSL modem through the ISP's. FTTP users obviously don't have this issue and neither should those using other technologies.
Yep agree here too and I've never stated otherwise to happen. I just want a proper more realistic FOD option developed for those of us in FTTN areas that are willing to pay for it. The current "technology switch" process through NBN is a complete expensive joke.
that is alright for those that can "afford" to pay for it, but what about those that have been forced onto lines over 1km.
Unless it is a fixed price then those furthest from the node would need to pay more than those near the node.
It is those furthest from the node that may be in more need of fibre, just to get a decent stable connection
It is not like those on long lines chose where the node went
Unless it is a fixed price
It should be a fixed price for all � charge enough to cover the FTTP and nbn covers any other costs.
what about those that have been forced onto lines over 1km.
Unless it is a fixed price then those furthest from the node would need to pay more than those near the node.
The pricing of FoD should be inverse to the quality of your broadband.
So that those further form the nodes pay the least for FoD.
With those closest to the nodes and without any material copper network issues, paying the most for their FoD.
The current "technology switch" process through NBN is a complete expensive joke.
That's cause News Corp does not want people to have 100/40 speeds IMO.
I can see why people are willing to stump up thousands of dollars if it will finally get them fibre to the home. But for renters this is a no go because almost no landlords care about spending money on their properties to make them better for the residents, and there are a lot of renters in Australia. And it shouldn't be necessary for renters to pay for an upgrade to a property that doesn't belong to them.
I hope that Labor have in their plan to not have an upfront fee for the installation of fibre, but to amortise the expense of installation over the life of the usage, like what they were doing before the last election.
FOD is always going to be expensive, because its piecemeal, its one off and each one is going to be a custom install.
Its nothing more than a stupid distraction � and it was enough to get the liberal party votes in the last election.
The solution needs to be, FTTP everywhere. It will work. It will pay for itself (unlike FTTN) we just need someone with the balls to do it.
FOD is always going to be expensive, because its piecemeal, its one off and each one is going to be a custom install.
Exactly, it's missing all the economies of scale you get from a full FTTP roll-out.
The solution needs to be, FTTP everywhere.
Plus a zillion. Malcolm's arguments (or his minions) for his MTM just do not hold water.
Exactly, it's missing all the economies of scale you get from a full FTTP roll-out.
I have some ideas that may offer a potential compromise to the binary MTM/full FttP positions.
It is unlikely to satisfy idealogical supporters of either polar position (perhaps that indicates it is a good idea). The necessity for this compromise is brought about by the escalating costs and delays resulting from the toxic political climate the project has been subject to.
The default position is FttDp using the most cost effective technology (this might be G.Fast, vplus, VDSL2 or some other yet to be commercialised tech over copper) to deliver the final 200? metres. This must be implemented on an appropriate underlying GPON architecture that supports a clear FttP upgrade path (eg. enough fibre to the Dp as is required to support upgrading the existing premises served). The cost differential for installing 1, 4 or 12 fibres to the Dp is marginal.
FttDp connections are 'on demand'. This defers these customer connect CAPEX costs until a service is active.
There is an option to opt-in during the build phase to FttP for the notional cost differential between FttP and FttDp. The reason for the notional charge is to satisfy the equity proposition for the fixed line footprint. This would be managed within the existing planning/notification phases, starting at preliminary design phase and ending at some appropriate time during the construction phase.
Opt-in FttP connections would be constructed via Build/Bulk drop, realising some of the savings benefits of this method. Clearly these connections are highly likely to order a service as soon as possible after RFS is declared, mitigating the moderate increased risk of CAPEX blowouts from unexpectedly high proportions of unsuitable LiCs.
FoD outside the initial FttP opt-in period is at bespoke quoted cost. If no copper based solution was provided this cost is subtracted from the quote (maintaining the equity proposition in the fixed line footprint). Obviously if a copper based solution has already been provided any future FoD upgrade would be at quoted cost.
Based on info from the leaked FttDp document this bespoke FoD cost (excluding FttDp credit estimated at ~$730) could be in the ~$1000 to $2500 range, depending on exact conditions onsite (eg. LiC condition and total distance).
A serious analysis of the proposed HFC rollout must be undertaken. If this path is to be followed I would suggest serious consideration be given to any lead-ins built including both coax and fibre components.
With labour being the greatest cost and an estimated ~2 million infill premises required it may be more appropriate in the medium term to simply roll the above FttDp solution into these areas.
I have some ideas that may offer a potential compromise to the binary MTM/full FttP positions.
Those are the sort of ideas/options I would have thought that Federal Labor would have been looking at over the last few months, as it became clearer that they might actually win Government in 2016.
FttDp connections are 'on demand'.
If you do not have to have either initially, then automatic activation makes sense.
then automatic activation makes sense.
Not sure if we are on the same page.
By 'on-demand' I basically mean that there is fibre running past the premises but no fibre to copper hardware installed until a service is ordered. It is not automatic � it requires a tech to install the pit hardware and perhaps a self install of CPE by the customer
By 'on-demand' I basically mean that there is fibre running past the premises but no fibre to copper hardware installed until a service is ordered
The initial opt-in (build drop) should include FTTdp as well as FTTP imho.
The modem should be automatically sent to the premises if FTTdp is selected, or an NTD install scheduled for FTTP.
I have some ideas that may offer a potential compromise to the binary MTM/full FttP positions.
It is unlikely to satisfy idealogical supporters of either polar position (perhaps that indicates it is a good idea). The necessity for this compromise is brought about by the escalating costs and delays resulting from the toxic political climate the project has been subject to.
I think you are presuming there is an ideological issue with technology choice. The only ideological difference I see is it's not possible to support a decision made by your political opponents.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But for renters this is a no go because almost no landlords care about spending money on their properties to make them better for the residents, and there are a lot of renters in Australia.
About 35% renters I heard the other day.... NBN V1 end to end no up front charges to consumers, ie owners or renters, was a very clever way to prevent the problems. Additionally, renters move from location to location so NBN V1 removed the need for multiple installation costs for individuals. and now we have....? a massive rip off.
Exactly, it's missing all the economies of scale you get from a full FTTP roll-out.
/s
But they are good economic managers!
/s
The default position is FttDp using the most cost effective technology (this might be G.Fast, vplus, VDSL2 or some other yet to be commercialised tech over copper) to deliver the final 200? metres.
The thing is that full fibre is proven. Any "prudent" developer of a broadband network would use this. It is proven in its current capacity that was being offered in Australia, and capable of being upgraded to many times that speed with technologies that already exist around the world. Why are we hanging out for a system and technology based on a an ancient and undermaintained but existing technology we have that MAY give us barely better speeds than ADSL2+?
There seems to be some sort of attachment to what we have and that somehow, if we continue to use it, it has to be cheaper, and who really needs anything! If it ends up costing up more for something little better (if at all) than what we had, we justify it by "not being wasteful".
It is like the old lady why swallowed a fly � https://www.google.com.au/url
Why are we hanging out for a system and technology based on a an ancient and undermaintained but existing technology we have that MAY give us barely better speeds than ADSL2+?
Probably because the NBN and NBN Co were carefully and deliberately re-designed to fail.
1. In an attempt to make it quicker to sell/liquidate/split up/divest assets.
2. To have another potential reason to discredit or dispense of Turnbull.
3. In an attempt to slow down the rate of digital change in Australia, to attempt to give local businesses and powerful overseas businesses operating in Australia (like News Corp) a better chance to adapt to and better survive the digital change.
4. To undermine the concept of GBE's and the "diss" the ability of Government organisations to deliver infrastructure, essential and other services. In an attempt to try and decrease the Australian voters (and other) resistance to more privatisation/outsourcing of Government Assets and Services.
With 3 and 4 likely the main reason (in my opinion).
With 2, probably the reason why the Federal Coalition was prepared to go ahead with Turnbull's plan, and risk the whole parties reputation. Knowing that if worst came to worst, they could try and deflect the blame onto Turnbull.
With 1, nice in theory, but a bit of an unknown, and depending on winning the Federal 2016 election, having a friendly enough Senate, and Telstra or News Corp actually allowing this to happen, as opposed to forcing the Government of the day to spend up to $100B or more on upgrading Australia's fixed broadband and digital communications infrastructure at the taxpayers risk and expense., before they regain more control of it (again in the case of Telstra) at some point in the future.
We have to stop thinking that we just need to do something to fix something else that just keeps repeating. We need to get to the root cause (in this case the ageing undermaintained network) and replace it, otherwise we will just keep doing one thing to fix another that causes a new problem that then requires another fix that causes a new problem...........
This is politics we are talking about. It's not what's good for the country long term, but what is good for the party short term.
Unfortunately people who want power don't govern for the whole, just the influential few ( Large Corporations, Media, Self-Interest manipulators ).
Labor made mistakes when implementing a 21st century communications system. Such as 121 POI's, cut the 1 from the end and it would be fine. Not doing a proper CBA ( even though you can manipulate the figures to give a certain outcome which is favourable), I know, I work for a Tax and Accounting firm, we use creative accounting all the time. Sen Conroy made arrogant claims that should have not been said. Such as issues with contractors and sub-contractors that he and NBN Co should have dealt with immediately. There are others that have all ready been described previously here and elsewhere.
What Labor and NBN Co were doing was something that would be beneficial for the individual, society and the economy for the long term future of this country. History has the best judgement on what is good, bad, ugly or indifferent. If the LNP win, we don't need foresight, communications in Australia will lose. New Zealand won't just brag about Rugby, milk and sheep. They can say we are a country ready for the future, while we are going to look at our own country and scream WHY!
Such as 121 POI's, cut the 1 from the end and it would be fine.
Wasn't that part of the negotiations with Telstra for access to the pits and ducts that were given to them?
The thing is that it is the underlying network that is being played with. We should not be spending the $100+ million on rectifying the copper network we are paying to access.
The underlying network needs to be FTTP. We should not be spending anything on perpetuating a copper network.
Labor made mistakes when implementing a 21st century communications system. Such as 121 POI'
They didn't do that.. the ACCC forced it on them ..
They didn't do that.. the ACCC forced it on them ..
Correct. But I still think it was a wrong decision to go ahead with. Even though the ACCC is supposed to be an independent adjudicator. It did get some, how you say, assistance from Telstra, Optus and Australian Private Networks.
Correct. But I still think it was a wrong decision to go ahead with. Even though the ACCC is supposed to be an independent adjudicator. It did get some, how you say, assistance from Telstra, Optus and Australian Private Networks.
can you imagine the media stories if the ALP had decided to ignore the ACCC and reduce the number?
Add to that the Liberal's screaming
"Labor is anti business and ignores the 'independent umpire'"
As it would directly impact businesses it would be have been even more intense than the rest of the oppositon to the FTTP NBN
I think Labor, even though they didn't like the 121 POIs agreed to go down that path to try and gain the support of some of the smaller groups in the Parliament at the time.
It was the same with the bit of Legislation enabling the sale of NBN Co Limited.
Note it was not to sell the infrastructure but the company.
Whereas the Liberals seem to have divided nbn� into competing silos ready for splitting up
can you imagine the media stories if the ALP had decided to ignore the ACCC and reduce the number
The media coverage was blatantly partisan to start with so the alp should have just overridden the accc and ignored the press.
We have to stop thinking that we just need to do something to fix something else that just keeps repeating. We need to get to the root cause (in this case the ageing undermaintained network) and replace it, otherwise we will just keep doing one thing to fix another that causes a new problem that then requires another fix that causes a new problem..........
Well said ...do it once, do it right...do full FTTP...very prudent!! Anything else including FTTdp effectively tries to be a political solution and in a way justifies the FTTN alternative thinking process...
Labor made mistakes when implementing a 21st century communications system.
The largest infrastructure project ever undertaken in this country.....not done before....... shouldn't we expect 'mistakes'?
Other similar projects in USA etc have demonstrated they have learned as they progress, improving processes, work flows etc and bringing cost down ....
It is easy to be harsh and demand perfection from day one but I can't recall any project that has gone like that and in fact if there were no problems and all went according to plan then the project has failed IMO because it has not built in the opportunity for learning and improvement. We tell and teach our kids to try something new , not to be afraid of failure...as long as they learn from it. We all learnt to ride a bike....after a few falls eh?
Politics is a tough rugged game without rules...We have seen it at its worst with NBN commentary....
can you imagine the media stories if the ALP had decided to ignore the ACCC and reduce the number?
Add to that the Liberal's screaming
The NBNCo was on thin ice wrt the GBE competitive neutrality guidelines anyway. Can you imagine the legal fight if they'd decided to provide free backhaul? It could have killed the project (imo). I don't think Conroy had much choice.
The media coverage was blatantly partisan to start with so the alp should have just overridden the accc and ignored the press
Exactly. They gained nothing by compromise. The same with ABC partisanship for the LNP; it hasn't stopped funding cuts or another LNP hack being appointed. Labor should, if given the opportunity, correct the mistakes of NBN and get rid of 121 points, the provision for company sale, bite the bullet and plan for 100% fibre in the long term, pass legislation that requires bodies corporate to allow access for hardware installation, shut Telstra out of the picture, pass legislation that compels media to report fully and honestly and agenda free and a watchdog with teeth to ensure it, provision for 1Gb speeds and affordable quotas or no quotas a d deal with the whole CVC problem.
A fine list of things that would make this a better and fairer country, and we know that none of this will be done, which shows just how corrupt the system is.
The media coverage was blatantly partisan to start with so the alp should have just overridden the accc and ignored the press.
The media certainly has a clear bias, but reporters are also very lazy. They do not bother to develop stories. They just use copy provided to them by whatever side they lean towards.
This is the main reason they do not like new media. It's too free.
Election 2016: Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
She's keen to talk about what she reckons could be the sleeper issue of the election campaign, certainly one that she says is gaining traction in her own seat.
Frustration, she says, is mounting about the slowing of internet speeds as the telecommunications network gets overloaded as households' consumption of data rises dramatically. Dubbed the "Netflix effect", the amount of data sucked through the copper-based cable network, much of it driven by streaming services such as Netflix and Stan, has doubled in the past year or so, and continues to rise at record rates.
read more
Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
The ALP need to highlight how Turnbull failed us...
The ALP need to highlight how Turnbull failed us...
Yes, they should become really aggressive on the subject and never miss an opportunity to hammer about it when interviewed or making a speech. It's a money for jam subject for Labor and they should make more use of it.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Yes, they should become really aggressive on the subject and never miss an opportunity to hammer about it when interviewed or making a speech. It's a money for jam subject for Labor and they should make more use of it.
For it to be effective (win votes), they need to not only attack the Coalition's record, but promote their own alternative. It is the latter that is missing at the moment. Hopefully they release their policy very soon.
For it to be effective (win votes), they need to not only attack the Coalition's record, but promote their own alternative.
The ALP have to put forward their plan and be confident about it and not go to water at the slightest criticism.
Unfortunately, this is how politics has turned. As soon as someone challenges a policy, the policy gets changed.
In part, this is because of the negativity and lack of journalism in the media.
The ALP have to put forward their plan and be confident about it and not go to water at the slightest criticism.
I think they'll be quite non-commital except they will come out strongly against FTTN.
They can reasonably say they don't know what options they have with HFC until they know what the NBNCo has done. Similarly with FTTdp where they need to see the results of the NBNCo's investigation and trial. I think they'll just keep saying "more fibre" until then.
There's also the mater of the NBNCo's financial position, which could be pretty dire.
I think they'll be quite non-commital except they will come out strongly against FTTN.
I have no doubt that will be the case, but they will be in for a bit of a shock when they discover just how many areas are already in well advanced stages for FTTN.
Election 2016: Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
It's only a sleeper issue because the MSM has blatantly ignored Turnbull's destruction of the NBN!
Had they been doing their job and exposing Turnbull's corrupt handling of the NBN it wouldn't be a sleeper issue at all.
I cant believe people here have not woken up to the fact that most 1st world countries are able to download five movies at once in like 5 minutes.
And they have unlimited. *Unlimited* for like $50 AUD!!
And they have unlimited. *Unlimited* for like $50 AUD!!
If only they were first world countries like Australia, imagine what they could do over copper!
For it to be effective (win votes), they need to not only attack the Coalition's record, but promote their own alternative. It is the latter that is missing at the moment. Hopefully they release their policy very soon.
One might expect the comparative performance of FTTP and FTTN through these storms. Copper failure due to getting wet. Copper failure due to power requirement for nodes...etc etc...
One might expect the comparative performance of FTTP and FTTN through these storms. Copper failure due to getting wet. Copper failure due to power requirement for nodes...etc etc...
I am still on regular pots and ADSL in a FTTN area.
phone line was all static yesterday, it is now no static, but dead.
Telstra have checked it to the pillar, all ok they say, and have now referred it to nbn� to fix the pillar to premises fault, this is the lovely copper that nbn�was gifted by Telstra.
If I was on VDSL the line would still be dead
At least as it is a voice service Telstra have arranged an nbn� tech to work in it tomorrow morning.
Not sure how I would have gone if it was a pure nbn� VDSL with VOIP as most providers are not offering the CSG on voice anymore
Assume NBN should still have a decent role to play this campaign. Maybe Labor saving it up for a last week blast?
i just wonder what the comparison of Gosford (FTP) to The entrance (FTTN) was like. wsa there much going on on the new thread in terms of performance over the storms?
Election 2016: Tanya Plibersek and the sleeper issue of the election campaign
She's keen to talk about what she reckons could be the sleeper issue of the election campaign, certainly one that she says is gaining traction in her own seat.
Frustration, she says, is mounting about the slowing of internet speeds as the telecommunications network gets overloaded as households' consumption of data rises dramatically. Dubbed the "Netflix effect", the amount of data sucked through the copper-based cable network, much of it driven by streaming services such as Netflix and Stan, has doubled in the past year or so, and continues to rise at record rates.
Doesn't surprise me, even my wife a computer dummy was able to get netflix working herself through the samsung smart TV. Install the app, put int username / password and she is streaming. I just made sure an ethernet cable was plugged into the TV and router.
Imagine if she went installing netflix on up to 3 devices, her ipad and macbook. Up to 25mbps by 2016 LOL. LNP just don't get it.
And they never will. Shame. Shame. Shame.
And they never will. Shame. Shame. Shame.
They have had 16 policies in 20 years and none have fixed the issues we now face.
Infrastructure competition doesn't work.
Private companies don't want to build a nation wide network.
We are now falling even further behind.
I wonder when they will get it � I'm thinking when we are #100+ in the world and the copper network is so degraded they can no longer use it.
Infrastructure competition doesn't work.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
End user affordability is more important than technology choice.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
Can every user in the U.S get those speeds?
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
What gigabit speeds are on offer in Australia Kingy? Won't be any on your nbn FTTN MTM mess/farce � ever!!!
Only viable Tech for that is FTTP
Can every user in the U.S get those speeds?
How many in Australia have ordered an NBN 1 Gbps service?
How many in Australia have ordered an NBN 1 Gbps service?
How many in Australia can get 1gbs � FTTN can't offer those speeds.
What gigabit speeds are on offer in Australia Kingy?
The majority of connections on the NBN are FTTP. You should already know that erfman.
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
In what sense KF?
The amount nbn spends or the amount it charges end users?
FTTP would mean it pays itself off and the revenue is larger.
As for charging the end user less � I'm all for charging people less, although that wouldn't be "maximising profits".
Charge end users enough to pay it off and make it truly unlimited � I like the sounds of that.
What are the LNP doing to make it cheaper for end users?
And they have unlimited. *Unlimited* for like $50 AUD!!
I have a cousin in the US and she buys speed. She can then up/download as much as she can during the month at that speed. When I told her that we buy both speed and allowance, she was like the orangutan that was shown the trick where an object was put in a cup and closed. Then a switch was made and the cup opened.
Come to think of it, that is exactly what the pollies do to us and rather than kick them out, we ROFL!
In what sense KF?
It costs at least $150 a month to order a 1 Gbps service. Now, an inner city politician like Plibersek can talk about streaming Netflix to multiple devices all she wants but it is a fact that, since 2013, her party has never said anything about NBN's pricing structure.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
Because of lower running and maintenance costs of using FTTP
t costs at least $150 a month to order a 1 Gbps service
Whos in charge KF? Lnp or Alp
Because of lower running and maintenance costs of using FTTP
It is up to the Labor party to talk up the economic benefits of FTTP. No one is stopping them from doing this.
If it's going to cost a little more to increase the fibre footprint then why not release the policy now? If Labor argues its case effectively then there's more than enough time to convince voters that FTTP is economically superior.
It is up to the Labor party to talk up the economic benefits of FTTP.
Its up to LNP to talk up the economic benefits of FTTN
Aren't we going to decide that
Yes, but whos in charge of NBN NOW? Why aren't they doing anything to lower consumer cost?
Yes, but whos in charge of NBN NOW? Why aren't they doing anything to lower consumer cost?
Exactly. Wasn't it meant to be CHEAPER under the Coalition's policy!
Only viable Tech for that is FTTP
I'm waiting for the moment some one comes in here and says Wireless is the future and that's all we need and that FTTP is nothing but a waste and will be outdated when it's doing rolling out. I've seen enough of the Wireless Vs FTTP discussion on twitter and it doesn't always end up good.
How many in Australia can get 1gbs
He's already answered it but I'll go ahead and say
NBN = 0 (Results unknown and who even knows if there's business RSP's already offering 1gbps in secret over the NBN or something as long as you have FTTP) But maybe, just maybe, my Crystal ball tells me that if Labor was still the Current Government we would of likely seen 1gpbs speeds in Australia ages ago, but alas I'm in this universe were the Libs won the election and as such 1gbps over the NBN in Australia Is no where to be seen and who knows if 1gbps will ever be a thing for the next few years. Yes I'm aware that NBN started offering 1 gbps speeds a while ago to RSP's but what's the point of RSP's offering it if the Majority of people are now on FTTN and won't ever be able to get speeds of 1 gigabits on FTTN.
Non NBN (Aka the private Fibre connections that a lot of rich company's in this country pay for) Likely heaps, can't give a number as I don't not know the amount myself but if they have all of the money in the world then why wouldn't they go for 1 gbps for the sake of things?
What are the LNP doing to make it cheaper for end users?
Nothing, all they are interested in doing is pushing the costs of things up and making sure Australia has one heck of an outdated Telecommunications network for future generations to use and put up with.
Wasn't it meant to be CHEAPER under the Coalition's policy!
Cheaper, Faster , Sooner, More Affordable..
lol
Yes, but whos in charge of NBN NOW?
NBN Co have already lowered CVC charges. Obviously it isn't enough. But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
Why does something such as the NBN need an roi?
Why can't we invest the money for the good of society � tv and radio being 1 example.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Thats ironic KF
Why does something such as the NBN need an roi?
Ok, fair enough. Labor should put that proposition to the people and let Australia decide.
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
but wasn't Malcolm supposed to be doing that?
are you now saying he wasn't?
Labor should put that proposition to the people and let Australia decide
So why not ask the same of LNP?
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
Wow, so even you agree that the Lib's have screwed this one up and it needs to be fixed.
Thanks to the MTM failure, we already have some of the most expensive internet in the world. MTM means that the bandwidth is artificially limited, and we're paying out the nose for CVC charges.
Its more expensive to get bandwidth from your home to your local poi, then it is to the US.
So why not ask the same of LNP?
Yes, we're all very interested in what the Libs are going to do to fix their mess. I have a feeling politics will be interesting soon. The Murdoch media cant fight too hard against the nation on bandwidth without painting itself into irrelevance. People are asking, why does my netflix keep bufferring? Wasnt Turnbull meant to have fixed this by now? Why cant NBN even tell me when they are going to fix it?
Even worse � why is my new NBN connection slower than my ADSL at peak times? I dont care about speed at 2am, I care about it when I want to use it...
This is what needs to be addressed...
End user affordability is more important than technology choice.
So does that mean that you will be publicly supporting a switch from MTM back to FTTP?
But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
That's because the MTM is incapable of providing any return on investment, so why do you support it?
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
Correct � the NBN project will only be restarted if Turnbull and co are voted out of office.
Correct � the NBN project will only be restarted if Turnbull and co are voted out of office
And will be twice as expensive to do now thanks to Turnbull and his copper idiocy.
The majority of connections on the NBN are FTTP. You should already know that erfman.
In fact my post said the only ones possible are on FTTP -
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
When they get in, and that appears to be your assumption (correct at that), immediately upgrading to 1GB would be smart move as would dumping FTTN for FTTP. Great revenue earner then, and likely cheap prices for 1Gb plans no doubt due to availability, economies of scale and popularity with consumers.
Simply not possible with FTTN and a waste of time with HFC to upgrade.
I note you have not responded to my posts re the FTTN failures in SAMs like 6CAN and others all experiencing common disasters. Read this � whrl.pl/ReDyem
Tell me how they will get 1Gb/s when they struggle to get comparable to existing ADSL... if anything at all... and make nbn MTM affordable
That's because the MTM is incapable of providing any return on investment, so why do you support it?
All Labor's "big white elephant, don't need those speeds" fault.
I'm not sure why those who support the MTM do � but then have the audacity to question the ALP.
The same party who have not been in power for 3 years.
It is up to the Labor party to talk up the economic benefits of FTTP
Well according to LNP Economic Plan info on their website the LNP isn't!! and they are the government.....
Most of the info in that plan is attacking Labor not supporting their MTM...WHY?? Is it that bad??? little or nothing positive to say about MTM??
And will be twice as expensive to do now thanks to Turnbull and his copper idiocy.
Indeed.
That money could of used towards what was it.
Fibre optic cabling as so forth.
Nope instead buys crappy CAN..
:0<
Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
Your mate Turnbull has done that and delivered a dogs breakfast that can't fund itself.....
I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budge
Why the hell would anyone want to do that and miss the opportunity to build nationwide infrastructure at really cheap interest rates.
or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM.
Who wants to fix MTM??? it is a dud...back to full FTTP is only way NBN can get back to paying for itself � self evident for open minded punters KIngy.
Once again � It's all Labor's fault.
That is all the LNP have.
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Quite an admission eh?...that MTM is dead in the water.... and from KIngy himself....
Quite an admission eh?...that MTM is dead in the water.... and from KIngy himself....
Can't help feeling suspicious about this really.
.dbl post oops.
So who you gonna vote for KF?
Are you agreeing that the MTM is in fact a mess?
Really?
NBN Co have already lowered CVC charges. Obviously it isn't enough. But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
Why can't the ROI be lower and the payback period be 50 years? Why does it need to be 4?
It's a big issue and will only get larger � thanks to the MTM.
How come prices for gigabit speeds are cheap in the US compared to here?
Hi Kingee? have you been on holidays?
More importantly, what is Labor going to do to make the NBN more affordable?
Actually now you're back.
If Labor argues its case effectively then there's more than enough time to convince voters that FTTP is economically superior.
Do you really believe there is a single voter out there that believes otherwise?
I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM. Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world.
I truly detect that the scales are starting to fall from someone's eyes.
Yes, KF just look around the world and we have been royally dudded.
From before Telstra gimped ADSL to protect ISDN revenues, this country has been held back by self-serving policies promoted by ALL flavours of Govt.
Australia could be one of the most advantaged countries in the world by using A grade Internet connectivity and overcoming the tyranny of distance which results from being at the 'arse end of the world'.
But no, we have paid top dollar for an absolute lemon.
And I'm sorry, but that choice was 100% LNP.
I am no fan of the other mob (Conroy, Krudd etc.) but buying back the copper and instigating the ABF (anything but fibre) policy was cutting off all our noses, kicking us in the nuts and handing a blank cheque to Telstra in one fell swoop.
Business grade, reliable, bi-directional, scalable Internet will rely on FTTP.
KF as you might have seen, the US (and many parts of Europe) have far cheaper, faster connections. Australia is still not going to have unlimited 1000/1000 connections for $50 a month (I'm looking at you Hong Kong) due to submarine cable limitations. But we could get close.
The first step to avoiding having the most expensive internet in the world is to dump this MTM farce and get back to FTTP, it's not about politics.
Can't help feeling suspicious about this really.
Standard fare.... got no ideas of their own and seek good advice on matters NBN... or how to stop good things happening with NBN
I despair at the lack of understanding amongst politicians about the potential of a real NBN.
I just watched a few minutes of Q&A tonight, when they were talking about the NBN. The audience and panel members seem to think that megabits per second, megabytes, and "gigs" are all interchangeable terms. (sigh)
Following the NBN discussion, someone asked a panel member (I think it was Joel Fitzgibbon � and maybe gibbon Fitzjoel, but we won't go there) if the Labor Party had a concrete plan to benefit remote people with mental health issues.
He pfaffed on about something � I think it was "blah blah blah.." or something similar.
The correct answer should have been "Yes, we have the NBN policy � this will benefit everyone, remote or not, with or without any specific mental health issues"
!
Correct � the NBN project will only be restarted if Turnbull and co are voted out of office.
That was correct; made patently clear on tonights Qand A � NBN was mentioned a dozen times, obviously the ABC ban on NBN has been lifted.
The majority of connections on the NBN are FTTP.
Thats got to be awkward for the Libs after nearly 3 years doesnt it Kingforce? The vast majority of connections on the NBN are thanks to Labors policy. Must be time to give Labor credit for providing the Libs with some sort of progress hey Kingforce? It would be sad stories if we had to wait foe a connection under this government.
Now, an inner city politician like Plibersek can talk about streaming Netflix to multiple devices
That was Christopher Pyyyyyyne. That was the only use he could quote for the NBN when he was on Q & A 2 weeks ago. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4445605.htm
TONY JONES: What speed do they need?
CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the speed that they will have, you�ll be able to watch five full-length movies in the same household if you all want to at the same time.
Pretty poor for the Minister for Industry, Innovation and Science, wouldn't you agree Kingforce?
Thankfully Albo sees the bigger picture
ANTHONY ALBANESE: The NBN isn't about movies. It's about our economy and how it functions.
If Labor argues its case effectively then there's more than enough time to convince voters that FTTP is economically superior.
Voters dont need convicning. Q and A tonight was more than enough evidence of that. There is massive support in the community for FTTP. The best thing that has happened to promote support for FTTP is Turnbulls MTM. People are seeing first hand what a farce it is and the cry fot FTTP is getting louder every day. Give yourself an education by watching the latest Q and A and see how much of a goose Barnaby looks as essentially the only anti-FTTP person in the room. http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s4452793.htm
People want FTTP. Turnbulls ego is the main thing stopping them getting it.
Whos in charge KF? Lnp or Alp
Kingforce is still struggling with that. He has spent the last 2 and half years under the delusion that Labor is still in charge, and that we can ignore, and not question what the Libs are doing, and just desperately point the finger at Labor. Thankfully, the chance for change is coming and Kingforce might well get his wish that Labor is back in charge again and that the Libs slip further into irrelevancy.
NBN Co have already lowered CVC charges. Obviously it isn't enough. But if CVC lowers too much then our return on investment dives and billions goes up in smoke.
You need to ask the Libs why this problem exists. The MTM is supposed to be cheaper, and thus require a much lower ROI. How the MTM is going to pay for itself, or where is its viable business plan arent questions for the Labor policy thread. You need to ask those hard questions of the Libs in the Libs thread. /forum-replies.cfm?t=2532106&p=93
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM.
Labor arent in power. The Libs are.
Otherwise we could end up having the most expensive internet in the world. Thanks Malcolm!
So you want Labor to save the LNPs MTM mess?
Thats ironic KF
Pretty standard unfortunately. Conroy had to fix the mess that over a decade of failed Libs comms policies caused. Just as his good work was gaining traction, the Libs got in and screwed it up again. Best thing that could happen is for Labor to get back in again and fix it before its too late. Another term of this government will see irreversible damage done.
Someone will have to save the NBN project.
So you will be voting Labor then? Thats got to hurt!!!!
Wow, so even you agree that the Lib's have screwed this one up and it needs to be fixed.
He wont ask the hard questions of the Libs while they are in power though, when they could actually do something about fixing their own mess. He wants it to be Labor to the rescue again. Ironic indeed!
Thanks to the MTM failure, we already have some of the most expensive internet in the world. MTM means that the bandwidth is artificially limited, and we're paying out the nose for CVC charges.
Yep. And if the government doesnt change here is no end in sight.
People want FTTP. Turnbulls ego is the main thing stopping them getting it
People don't know what they want. They really just don't know!
It's up to us to enlighten them. We are the techos, tell your friends that the country needs fibre for reasons you understand.
You will have some friends that have sucked in some rubbish and offer "flat earth". You can but try, the country needs you to be a salesman. Unfortunately most of us are not.
Please try. If we don't get proper comms then we are doomed for a generation.
Q and A tonight was more than enough evidence of that. There is massive support in the community for FTTP.
They were very specific, FTTP. I doubt they are Whirlpoolians as well. The applause whenever FTTP was mentioned (except for Barnaby's stuttering around the subject) was clear as day to see. Rural regional Australia can see the importance and Tony Windsor is making it one of his primary reasons for making a comeback.
FTTP is the right infrastructure to bridge the gap for rural regional locations in areas of health, education and business today and into the future.
People don't know what they want. They really just don't know!
You would be surprised! I live in an area that was supposed to get full FTTP, but is now basically getting half FTTP and half FTTN. The amount of times people ask if they are getting the good fibre NBN or the copper one, is amazing. If you watch shows like Q and A tonight and listen to the crowds support any time FTTP was mentioned, you can see that they get it. After the last election people were surveyed and over 70% of them still supported Labors FTTP NBN. They get it. We just need to make sure we get a government in that gets it. This government sure doesnt!
They were very specific, FTTP.
Yep. they knew what they wanted. And they knew the right questiosn to ask. It was good for example to see someone point out to Barnaby (and the LNP) that the NBN is not about today, its about providing for the future. Telling us how many movies we can watch at once now is irrelevant. People are more interested in having infrastructure built now that will cater for the future. That is why they want to go back to FTTP.
FTTP is the right infrastructure to bridge the gap for rural regional locations in areas of health, education and business today and into the future.
Its the only sensible option in the regions. Do it once, do it right, and it will serve the regions well for decades, and allow them to be competitive with their city cousins.
They get it.
Not where I live. An affluent suburb of apparent idiots. All of whom are richer than me.
Is there a correlation?
Not where I live. An affluent suburb of apparent idiots. All of whom are richer than me.
Is there a correlation?
There is a scientific correlation between being right winger and being of a lower IQ ;)
http://www.theglobeandmail
Labor are pushing to make the NBN an election issue. Albo, Plibersek, Clare, Shorten, et al are all mentioning it at every chance. It is gaining traction as we saw in Q and A tonight.
So, given that reality, I would like to see Labor put the NBN on budget or raise taxes/cut services to help fix the MTM
Or, they could ditch MTM and switch back to an all fibre rollout, then:
-we won't need to put NBN on budget
-we won't need to raise taxes to fund it
-we won't be stuck with the most expensive (and slowest) internet in the world.
Voters dont need convicning. Q and A tonight was more than enough evidence of that. There is massive support in the community for FTTP.
Hilariously tonights Q&A was a regional edition � in Tamworth...
Labor and Liberal's policy on regional areas (excluding major towns) is identical � Satellite and Fixed Wireless.
The one question they actually took about this was someone complaining about the Interim Satellite not being quick enough to load Gmail --- exactly that Interim (and somewhat surprising to be honest) � SkyMuster will be much better providing a 25/5 service with caps (albeit still not city services � then again how is that sewer line going?)
That said from the crowd response � it appears Labor has the hearts and minds on this issue.
Labor and Liberal's policy on regional areas (excluding major towns) is identical � Satellite and Fixed Wireless.
I thought that under the Quigley era NBN, all towns of 1000 or more population (and several with less population) would get FTTP?
PS, 1000 population was mentioned here http://ministers.treasury.gov
I think that was wound substantially back for the 93/7% plan that was mentioned in 2012/3 or so
all towns of 1000 or more population
It was towns of more than 1000 premises, and if the town was on a fibre link this number was reduced to 500 premises.
I think that was wound substantially back for the 93/7% plan that was mentioned in 2012/3 or so
While Quigley was running NBNCo, 93 plus percent FTTP (including all towns of at least 1000 population) was the plan, unless you can find some documents that say otherwise.
Labor and Liberal's policy on regional areas (excluding major towns) is identical � Satellite and Fixed Wireless.
Not true � any town with more than a certain number of premises (1000 from memory) was to get FTTP, with the subsequent addition that towns with half that number of premises that were on a fibre backhaul route would also get FTTP.
Edit: I see I have been comprehensively beaten to that point :-)
The nbn is an election issue after all � who knew :)
Didnt realise the q and a was about this, is there a link to watch the full episode?
Didnt realise the q and a was about this, is there a link to watch the full episode?
ABC Iview � I enjoyed it as people were questioning what the LNP were doing.
FTTP � do it once, do it right!
ABC Iview � I enjoyed it as people were questioning what the LNP were doing.
FTTP � do it once, do it right!
Sorry but your delivery just doesn't match that of Tony Windsor on Q & A
"Do it once; Do it right; Do it with fibre;" � With a standing ovation from the audience.
Best thing I have seen or heard in this election campaign so far.
While Quigley was running NBNCo, 93 plus percent FTTP (including all towns of at least 1000 population) was the plan, unless you can find some documents that say otherwise.
Whilst the government objective mentions population, as you say, the 2010 corporate plan says this in section 5.5.1 ...
The proposed FTTP footprint is shown in Exhibit 5.3. It should be noted that this footprint actually extends to 92.3% of premises as of June 2010 but covers 93% of premises at the end of the roll-out. The FTTP footprint has been determined as follows:
i. All communities with greater than 1,000 premises (determined by G-NAF data) were mapped, and then remote communities (i.e. those requiring extensive transit backhaul) were backed out, to provide the minimum FTTP coverage of 90%;
ii. Transit backhaul routes required to service this FTTP footprint and 8 satellite earth stations were then plotted, and any communities with greater than 1,000 premises excluded under i. along these routes were added back in, resulting in 90.8% FTTP coverage;
iii. All additional communities with over 1,000 premises were then added back in, together with the additional transit backhaul needed to serve these communities, resulting in 91.4% FTTP coverage; and
iv. All communities with greater than 500 premises that are passed by the transit backhaul routes resulting from i-iii were added in, resulting in 92.3% FTTP coverage.
That's where it changed from population to premises.
I just watched a few minutes of Q&A tonight, when they were talking about the NBN. The audience and panel members seem to think that megabits per second, megabytes, and "gigs" are all interchangeable terms. (sigh)
And that is what Turnbull and LNP are playing at with NBN � exploiting ignorance and making ridiculous statements and lies to be taken as truth.
Joyce gave full indication as to how they are selling NBN.
Quote � " not one 1Gb/s service sold by NBN Co and majority sold are 25Mb/s...that's all the public want...". (What a coincidence yesterday Kingy was raising the 1Gb/s issue yesterday eh?) I found it sad no-one challenged Joyce though no doubt Tony Jones would have shut it down � details/facts don't count.
Fact is if 25Mb/s is all nbn FTTN /MTM can deliver then what else can consumer choose � the 100/40 product they charge more for is delivering around 25-30Mb/s at best in normal hours if they are lucky. Only FTTP can deliver 1GB/s.
It is a simple message but no-one in media especially it seems are able to grasp that pollies struggle as well
Whilst the government objective mentions population, as you say, the 2010 corporate plan says this in section 5.5.1 ...
Thanks...
FTTP is the right infrastructure to bridge the gap for rural regional locations in areas of health, education and business today and into the future.
The people at Q&A were certainly vocal and specific � FTTP is what they want.....now!!
It was also the Farmers Federation and the Small Business rep pushing for FTTP. Won't surprise if Windsor gets in. ALP might as well, if preferences flow their way and they get a few more votes than Windsor. Either will do as far as FTTP is concerned.
I think that was wound substantially back for the 93/7% plan that was mentioned in 2012/3 or so
NO! The 1000 rule was included in the 93/7% Plan. The rule went down to 500 under Labor's NBN V1 and they were eying off 94/6% with close proximity to Backhaul Fibre essential.
The nbn is an election issue after all � who knew :)
Quite correct. The SBS article really highlights the LNP don't want issues discussed. Turnbull (presidential style) is the focus � look at the backdrops for announcements not a mention of LNP just Turnbull. The most trivial things are reported and like the CFA Victoria issue, not federal policy issues. Look at Abbott style "Our (not LNP...) Economic Plan" which is as vague as a drunk at 3am Saturday night, it contains next to nothing re LNP NBN Plan just attacks Labor. All they have really offered up is the $50B Company Tax cuts and $50B subs......and quietly bits and pieces in marginal seats ($1.6B ABC says) which aren't getting reported.
Anything but policy is sought and blown out of proportion to obfuscate what people want to know...what are they going to do for us. Do they actually have a Plan???? IMO they want everyone to get so pissed off and bored, don't want them to be able to think about which way they want to vote and in frustration just stay where they went last time with their protest vote.
The NBN issue can be the game changer as it impacts on all portfolios and the delivery of Govt services. FTTP is the only tech that can deliver that. Labor has a great opportunity (to continue?) to drive the agenda and a focus on NBN would demonstrate a clear differentiation across the board.
The NBN issue can be the game changer
Yes, and I think that FTTP [Labor must call it fibre, not NBN because the LNP will say nbn, which sounds the same] could become the hot topic in the election if they play it right. It's a golden opportunity that the LNP have handed to Labor on a platter.
Labor should instruct their people to bone up on a proper understanding of the subject so they can nail the LNP reps at every opportunity, and they should be putting out pressers every second day.
They must also be ready to get serious about FTTP if they win the election. If they talk big now and do stuff all during their term they risk being a one term government.
This means doing more than just 93% fibre; it means getting rid of 121 POI and contention issues, any up front charges, using middlemen contractors who bleed the money dry, and fast track brownfield connections to raise the revenue faster.
couldnt help myself after watching that bumbling idiot Joyce. I had to make this. Share it around if you want, we cannot let the Liberals lead this country on July 2nd
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
Labor should instruct their people to bone up on a proper understanding of the subject so they can nail the LNP reps at every opportunity, and they should be putting out pressers every second day.
They certainly should do this and organise public meetings where this is explained to voters.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
it means getting rid of 121 POI ...
How do you suggest they do this? I think it's impossible without a huge legal fight.
... and contention issues, ...
That would require them to either get rid of the CVC charge or reduce the price significantly. That reduces revenue which reduces the IRR. That will require the government to write off most if not all of their equity investment to date or accept the low IRR and bring the NBN on budget. That is going to start a political spitstorm.
fwiw ... I think whichever party wins the election is going to have to face this unpalatable reality after the election. I think they should bite the bullet and do it to keep prices down. It will be really tough though.
How do you suggest they do this? I think it's impossible without a huge legal fight.
My question would be can they keep the 121 POI, but allow for a separate service for transit to 12 POI's (per original). Allows for companies to retain existing investments, while still allowing for new entrants.
My question would be can they keep the 121 POI, but allow for a separate service for transit to 12 POI's (per original).
The 14 POI proposal allowed for RSP connection at the POIs and at the CSAs (conditions applied) at the same price. The transit from the POI to the CSA was therefore effectively free. That was never going to happen without a legal battle (imo).
The competitive neutrality guidelines for GBEs require the GBE to charge prices that deliver a risk adjusted return of the 10 year bond rate plus a risk premium: 3% low risk, 5% medium risk or 7% high risk. The NBNCo is not close to any of those. Entering the transit market with a service priced to undercut competitors is certain (imo) to be challenged.
ouldnt help myself after watching that bumbling idiot Joyce
Well done but I don't get the 'Thug', smoking, sunglasses depiction of Windsor... detracts a little from the rest
but I don't get the 'Thug', smoking, sunglasses depiction of Windsor
Yes that went over my head too .... wooooosh.
detracts a little from the rest
Agreed.
The Labor FTTH plan is still available to be re-instated post-election. However, the 'upgrade ' path from FTTN is not being clarified to voters.
All they have to do to win on the election issue of NBN is keep pointing to this.. http://www.abc.net.au/news/20
Watch some YouTube thug life vines
Ta but I've found in life that if you have to explain a joke then its better to just move on ....
As my jokes are often a bit cryptic I move on a lot. :)
How do you suggest they do this?
I haven't the foggiest idea. But I did ask that very same question in one of these threads a few months ago and there was an answer given that I didn't understand [me being rather dim]. Perhaps someone else can chip in on the matter.
But I asked the question because of all the talk about how 121 POI was a strangling noose on the operation of fibre in this country, and therefore it seems to me that we would be well rid of it.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But I asked the question because of all the talk about how 121 POI was a strangling noose on the operation of fibre in this country, and therefore it seems to me that we would be well rid of it.
Yeah, and I agree. It's just one of those things I think Conroy and the ACCC couldn't do anything about. The NBNCo would have been picking a fight with some of their biggest customers. More to the point, picking a fight with Optus and Telstra at the time they were trying to negotiate deals. Just not doable imo.
Sorry to pick on your post. I just want someone to tell me how they think Conroy could have done any different.
As I said, I don't know what I'm talking about, but I wonder if an Enabling Legislation would do the trick; one that overrides the authority of the ACCC in this matter. Not so much for Conroy back then, but perhaps in the future.
I realise it would mean junking what has been spent on 121, but I've never seen the point in persevering in something stupid just because it has already been set up.
If you can't do things once and do them right, then do things twice and make sure it becomes right, is my motto.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
If you can't do things once and do them right, then do things twice and make sure it becomes right, is my motto.
Why not try 16 different policies in 20 years and still not fix anything � because "private is better".
The jealousy effect is in full swing with NBN � those of us who have it are making sure EVERYBODY knows about it, and how good it is.
Rubbing peoples nose in it? Sure.
Upsetting business councils/Liberal voting suburbs with how good FTTH is? Absolutely.
Advocating that voting for Liberal is going to get you a poor outcome? Constantly.
As long as Labor keeps pushing the "Look what FTTH enabled suburb 'x' is doing!" they will be winnin
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
As I said, I don't know what I'm talking about, but I wonder if an Enabling Legislation would do the trick; one that overrides the authority of the ACCC in this matter. Not so much for Conroy back then, but perhaps in the future.
IANAL so what I write here is just my opinion. It may be right or it may be wrong :)
If the NBNCo goes to a 14 POI set up they will be effectively offering free backhaul from the current POIs to the capital city POIs. Having a GBE enter a competitive market with a free service would be a 'courageous' move. I don't know if it's illegal or unconstitutional though. I'm sure there would be a challenge of some sort by the current backhaul providers.
An alternative would be for the NBNCo to build its own backhaul to the 121 POIs and offer services at prices that undercut the current providers. This is where the GBE competitive neutrality guidelines come in. Again, I don't know what legal recourse the current providers would have but I'm sure they wouldn't go down without a fight of some sort.
The current backhaul providers include Optus, Telstra and TPG. The NBNCo picking a fight with its three biggest RSPs would be a high risk strategy imo. It has the potential to stop the sale of NBN services whilst the dispute is settled.
As I said, that's just as I see it. I don't see how Conroy could have done anything else and I don't see how a future government (either flavour) could change it. I'm always happy to be corrected.
I don't know if it's illegal or unconstitutional though.
I doubt it would be unconstitutional. They aren't taking anything (even if they did they can "acquire property under just terms" under the constitution) and the Govt has authority over this area, as such it wouldn't be 'illegal'.
http://www.100positivepolici
Compare this document to the LNP one .... if you can find it as a document to be read...seems like you have to choose an issue � do they really want us to know what is in the 'Plan'? Bit poor for them to be representing Labor's so flippantly when you can't find theirs at all.
Labor's NBN page is light on but at least positive � one might expect a policy launch shortly as stated. LNP's NBN Policy is the same as Fifield's tweet which is 75-80% attacking Labor...since when is a policy not about what you want to do but what you view the opposition's history as ...?
HAv ethe media actually looked at these � I think not.
http://www.100positivepolic
The Federal Labor 5 word NBN vision statement.
More fibre to more Australians
And it's a Gold Star from me and a Gold Star from him.
I'd like to supplement that with it's alter ego
Less copper to less Australians
and
The less copper the better
https://cdn.australianlabor.
BUILD THE NATIONAL BROADBAND NETWORK
The most important piece of infrastructure for any 21st century economy is a first-rate fibre National Broadband Network. In 2013, Malcolm Turnbull scrapped Labor�s world class Fibre-to-the-Premises NBN. The Liberals are instead building a slower, second-rate NBN that will leave Australia behind and hamstring our economy into the future.
The NBN is signature Labor policy. It is the biggest, most important public infrastructure project in Australian history. Universal, fast, reliable and affordable broadband is the platform on which the jobs of the future will be built.
The original Labor NBN would have delivered optic fibre to 93 per cent of homes and businesses, providing speeds of up to 1 gigabit per second, a network easily scalable to much higher speeds in the future. Fast and reliable broadband creates jobs and provides real economic benefits to households and businesses.
In 2013, Deloitte Access Economics estimated that the average annual household benefit of Labor�s NBN will be about $3,800 in 2020, in 2013 dollars, with around two-thirds of this benefit ($2,400) financial and the remainder in consumer benefits, such as travel time savings and convenience of e-commerce.
Only a Shorten Labor Government will build an NBN that delivers more fibre to more Australians
Rubbing peoples nose in it? Sure
Pretty poor form when your rubbing it the noses of people in Labor safe seats who have had to suffer FTTN being rolled out in the area without any say in the matter. :(
Upsetting business councils/Liberal voting suburbs with how good FTTH is? Absolutely.
Advocating that voting for Liberal is going to get you a poor outcome? Constantly.
As long as Labor keeps pushing the "Look what FTTH enabled suburb 'x' is doing!" they will be winnin
Even though I don't have FTTH. I welcome all the gloating around it, as long as it exposes the scam we have been sold by MTM.
The more news, the better. This is our chance of getting the same technology in the next 5 years.
The more news, the better. This is our chance of getting the same technology in the next 5 years.
Last chance I'd suggest to get to FTTP and secure the future of generations to come and Labor are the only one's that are committed to it. The LNP keep saying they have a Plan (I challenge anyone to print off a copy of the LNP 'Our Economic Plan ' they wave around for media photo/TV opportunities) but most of the NBN part of that is an attack on Labor so they are squibbing on doing NBN right.
With interest rate so low this is the time for investment in such massive infrastructure. No private enterprise will build FTTP off their own bat � they have refused to for decades and even now � a missed opportunity for big profits for decades. Only with govt funding will they participate and now that Turnbull has cornered the govt in Telstra's pocket Australian taxpayers will pay handsomely.
That effectively means what Turnbull has put in place will be it unless Labor wins the election and changes tack back to FTTP.
From a consumer's point of view I see an iinet ad today for nbn 1000Gb data for $79.99. No speed mentioned but for sure 25MB/s (12 in interim 18mths) No guarantee of a minimum speed either. FTTN Whirlpool threads are reporting failure after failure....
I am fortunate to have FTTP with iinet 100/40 500Gb for $89/mth with free calls across Australia, consistent near full speeds all the time � I get what I pay for and sadly those on FTTN do not. Biggest con of all time. Thanks Malcolm.... snake oil salesman supreme....
I bet it was thought up by Baldrick
Has turnbull had a namechnge � too embarrassed with FTTN rollout.
I meant to add Turnbull had a Plan for NBN as well, ready to go and fully costed � just like "Our Economic Plan" (which it seems you can't get a copy of) and we saw how the NBN Plan was a total hoax � took 2 � years to start and doubled in cost.
I'd bet the NBN Plan was actually a plan to do a plan � we just didn't read the fine print. Every answer to LNP policy by coalition members/candidates starts with ....we have a plan.... but there is no information as to what the substance is to justify the policy. See the similarity to Turnbull's NBN Plan?
.we have a plan
Blame the ALP and hope no-one notices the inaction.
It might work.....
So early voting starts next Tuesday with most commentators expecting increased levels of early voting. I have heard estimates of a third of voters will cast their vote before Election Day. Given this, wouldn't The ALP want to get their policy out soon? I would suggest it is probably too late this week (to capture good headlines you don't want to announce a major policy on a Friday or on the weekend). I am guessing we will see it early next week, but it is just a guess.
Are we actually going to get a labour policy? Or have I missed it? Or are they planning on playing safe and not having an offical policy? Sorry if this has been mentioned already but we are over half way through the campaign already and am starting to think they leaving it a bit to late.
Are we actually going to get a labour policy? Or have I missed it? Or are they planning on playing safe and not having an offical policy?
I think they are going about it badly.
The same in the year before the lead up to the 2013 election and in the campaign for that election too. They are not playing their strengths properly, in my opinion. They should boot out their strategist and get someone with a fire in his belly to win.
I'm already having nightmares about Federal Labor pollies being quizzed on their NBN Policy after it is announced and some of them floundering around in trying to answer and explain their policy in any detail.
Maybe the delay on the NBN Policy is partly to make surf that Federal Labor pollies have been fully trained in both how to spruik it, and how to handle any curveball questions they get about it.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I think they are going about it badly.
I'll cut them some slack. It's obvious what the Coalition line is going to be as soon as Labor announce "more fibre". There will be a steaming heap of "$30bn more", "8 years longer" bull spit. And the idiots that get to vote will suck it up. Labor ... spending ... BAD! Gods save us.
I'll cut them some slack.
I hope you're right. But I remember back in 2013 waiting for Labor to zing the polemic with a well structured campaign selling the fibre NBN with all it's merits and targeting the LNP lies with exposure. But it never came.
I believe that applications for postal votes have to be in soon, and each election more people opt for postal voting so they don't have to go to the voting booth. If Labor want to win more votes I think they should get on the wagon now.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I hope you're right.
I doubt it. The Coalition wants to spend $50bn on company tax cuts that will flow mostly to overseas shareholders. Labor wants to spend that $50bn on education and health for Australians. The polls are 50:50. It doesn't make sense.
But I remember back in 2013 waiting for Labor to zing the polemic with a well structured campaign selling the fibre NBN with all it's merits and targeting the LNP lies with exposure. But it never came.
Conroy was the right man to bash the NBN into existence but (imo) he wasn't the right man to sell it to the electorate. Remember the dishwasher shopping for cheap electricity?
If Labor want to win more votes I think they should get on the wagon now.
I don't think the NBN will decide many votes. The difference between the discredited trickle-down bollocks of the Coalition versus Labor's investment in the education and training of Australia's children is too stark. If the elctorate can't make a decision on that then they're way to stupid to understand the NBN.
I think Labor should tread warily on the NBN. "More fibre" is about all they can safely offer imo.
I think Labor should tread warily on the NBN. "More fibre" is about all they can safely offer imo.
Why they don't just go:
'We have a fully costed ready to go broadband plan. For $40B every Australian will have FTTP by 2020.'
When 2020 comes and they're nowhere near finished and it's more than double the cost say they didn't know just how bad a state the NBN was in until they saw the books so it's all the LNPs fault.
If the LNP can do it don't see why they can't o.O
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I believe that applications for postal votes have to be in soon
Early voting starts June 14 and 4.5M early votes has been mentioned in media. Ironically LNP haven't ramped anything up and keep playing the small target game. Their nbn stuff in their Our Economic Plan is just rubbish � they are not serious about a national broadband network is the only conclusion anyone can make. If that is all they can say about a $56+B spend then economic credentials are pretty much non existent.
NBN can be such a differentiating issue if presented properly and timing will be critical.
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
I believe that applications for postal votes have to be in soon, and each election more people opt for postal voting so they don't have to go to the voting booth. If Labor want to win more votes I think they should get on the wagon now.
Yeah, I believe that the election weekend is during school holidays, so expect that to increase the number of postal votes.
The Coalition wants to spend $50bn on company tax cuts that will flow mostly to overseas shareholders.
and Corporate Tax cuts of $50B offer GDP contribution of just 0.2% (~$3B) whereas NBN V1 was to deliver 1.5% pa (~$25B) for a $43B project now $56+B.....
The polls are 50:50. It doesn't make sense.
I don't think the NBN will decide many votes.
Check the FTTN threads ...might be quite a few there. Some posts are showing a preference for FTTP and anguish with getting connected let alone frustration with speeds when using it when they do....and some saying they had better speeds with ADSL.
Might be more than you think will not vote LNP
Ambitious But Rubbish writes...
But I remember back in 2013 waiting for Labor to zing the polemic with a well structured campaign selling the fibre NBN with all it's merits and targeting the LNP lies with exposure. But it never came.
Yeah Labor were absolutely terrible at selling themselves and their policies, and still are to a degree.
But to the vast majority of voting public, the NBN won't get on the radar except Libs attack on labor as a huge waste of money, that's simply the facts, nothing has changed...
I don't think the NBN will decide many votes
Maybe you should have watched Q&A on Monday mate. The NBN isn't in the mainstream media as an election issue, but is obviously a sleeping giant amongst the electorate.
Maybe you should have watched Q&A on Monday mate.
I did. I still don't think it will decide many votes. Someone recently posted a link to a survey of issues the public wanted to know more about. There were 12 on the list. The NBN came 10th for the youngest group (18-34 iirc) and 11th for the two other groups. That's not to say people aren't interested in the NBN, just that there are other issues of more importance.
I agree with Mark Gregory's points in this article ...
Bill Shorten is better off keeping the details of his first-rate fibre NBN close to his chest until the election is sorted.
http://www.theaustr
The slightest hint that Labor will spend more on the NBN and the LNP will be all over it like a rash. Labor is probably better off just saying "more fibre" and attacking FTTN.
The slightest hint that Labor will spend more on the NBN and the LNP will be all over it like a rash. Labor is probably better off just saying "more fibre" and attacking FTTN.
I'm not bothered by it not being released yet. I expect this and other major policies to come in the last two weeks, given the long long campaign. I'm also expecting it will be another glossy pamphlet than a detailed policy.
Labor is probably better off just saying "more fibre" and attacking FTTN.
This is exactly right!
They don't have to give exact details � take a leaf out of the LNP's book.
They could even use MTM against the LNP � "We don't know what we will do until after the election and we can then see exactly what has been signed. As nbn is not transparent we do not know what is currently in effect. We can promise more fibre though."
This is all they have to announce.
Labor�s NBN silence
Bill Shorten is better off keeping the details of his first-rate fibre NBN close to his chest until the election is sorted.
Opposition leader Bill Shorten indicated in his Budget reply speech that Labor will return to a first-rate fibre NBN. Just what that entails is unknown at the moment and things may remain that way until the election is done and dusted.
Labor now faces a conundrum about whether or not to release a new broadband policy that takes into account the changed conditions at NBN Co and the state of the NBN rollout. Any attempt to identify how the shift back to a first-rate fibre NBN might occur is fraught with danger because by releasing a policy, with any level of detail, there will be an opportunity for the Coalition to pick apart the details. It should be anticipated that the Coalition is sitting on a trove of material (more �leaks� from NBN Co?) that can be made available if and when Labor decides to release a detailed new broadband policy.
Mark Gregory
Someone recently posted a link to a survey of issues the public wanted to know more about. There were 12 on the list
These are generally driven by the likes of Murdoch media � what is in your face is important when you know little about anything else. Case in point I think if its the same list climate change/renewables was down with NBN. The power of media is more what is not publicised....
The NBN came 10th for the youngest group (18-34 iirc
The interesting part of this is that they are the unpredictable voting group and most of these don't read papers at all and are to a large extent anti establishment... viz a viz Sanders policies has won the young vote in USA. Australia is not too different maybe a little behind. Another repeat of Abbott/Turnbull would tip that over IMO.
NBN is much more an issue for the young. In fact if you have seen Q&A questions from a couple of school kids they leave adults way behind � unfettered minds, issue driven.
driven by the likes of Murdoch media
It was the ABC poll from memory, although not 100% accurate, I believe it is indicative.
The slightest hint that Labor will spend more on the NBN and the LNP will be all over it like a rash.
That ignores the ridiculous $56+B cost of FTTN and just an upgrade of HFC for little gain and no upgrade path of any significance, certainly way behind world best practice..
NBN V1 was $43B peak funded based on higher cost of borrowing, so, likely less in fact. Add the $8B Morrow claims it would cost to go back to FTTP and that is $~$50B. For some strange reason people believe the $8B goes on top of the $56B which won't get done ..... ie. FTTN and HFC won't be continued so that won't be spent. That leave $6B to match LNP cost for nbn.
Lets not forget the $30B extra cost for NBN V1 is nto NBN V1 at all but Turnbull's hand crafted version of how he and his paid up 'consultants' (highly discredited) contrived it for their own purposes. It is false and unrealistic, in fact irrelevant.
If Labor can't put a Plan together within that framework and sell a fairly simple narrative they don't deserve to get back in.
I'm also expecting it will be another glossy pamphlet than a detailed policy.
What, to match the LNP vacuuous rubbish? It is disturbing that Labor's announcements are being forensically attacked in media (with help from bluff and bluster from Morrison and Cormann...) and little broadcast or reference to anything within their Economic Policy. At least Labor's NBN piece says something positive.
If they looked at the LNP Economic Plan � if they can find the document itself � they would find next to nothing but platitudes and Labor attakcs � It is supposed to be the fundamental, core element of the next four to 10 years of policy..its an insult to intelligence, yet not a mention, no investigation, no challenge.
Trust me... is their only real policy. We are being taken by fools and don't need both parties racing to the bottom.
It was the ABC poll from memory, although not 100% accurate, I believe it is indicative.
Supports whatI am trying to get across I suppose. ABC list will most likely be driven by Vote Compass which, if you want to as a political organisation, can summons a number of people to input pre-prepared data with a particular intent in mind in the guise of 'personal opinion' to see (read contrive) a particluar leaning. NO different to TV phone polls, someone in a political office keeps pressing the redial key....
ABC is reckless IMO to present that as genuine public opinion and almost politically driven to suggest people can rely on it for guidance
It was the ABC poll from memory, although not 100% accurate, I believe it is indicative.
Close. It was SBS :)
Rob Oakshott to run for seat of Cowper. Would be great to see them in action again not only in the interests of NBN V1 but Australia.
Rob Oakshott to run for seat of Cowper. Would be great to see them in action again not only in the interests of NBN V1 but Australia.
I wouldn't count on him � he said that if he found himself in the balance of power again he would side with Turnbull.
The Coalition wants to spend $50bn on company tax cuts that will flow mostly to overseas shareholders. Labor wants to spend that $50bn on education and health for Australians. The polls are 50:50. It doesn't make sense.
The Coalition says they have a plan for growth while Labor says its policies are about fairness. Turnbull accuses Shorten of having no plan to grow the economy and I suspect many people would agree.
So Labor's message should focus on a fibre NBN driving economic growth.
However the election is already half finished and Labor's plan is non existent. That means Labor will just continue on with the Coalition's MTM so everything posted on whirlpool is largely academic. Since there will be no policy differences on the NBN front then it comes down to comparing Quigley's record of delivery against Morrow's record.
The Coalition says they have a plan for growth
They lie � you know that, so why would you repeat their claim as if it has a shred of truth to it?
However the election is already half finished and Labor's plan is non existent.
You seem awfully quiet about the Coalition's MIA plan.
That means Labor will just continue on with the Coalition's MTM so everything posted on whirlpool is largely academic.
Maybe if you keep saying that you'll believe it, but you can rest assured that noone else will.
The Coalition says they have a plan for growth
And the Emperor could say that his clothes are the height of fashion, but that doesn't make it true...
In fact Turnbull's ACTIONS are very anti-growth to this point.
He has decimated the core of our telecommunications growth, which is a basic foundation for all other growth.
In fact Turnbull's ACTIONS are very anti-growth to this point.
Fungus stops growing under Turnbulls "plans".
So Labor's message should focus on a fibre NBN driving economic growth.
They are KF.
What is the actual plan from the LNP to get jobs and growth?
Tax cuts do not work!
They lie � you know that, so why would you repeat their claim as if it has a shred of truth to it?
This forum is not about the election it's about the NBN.
You seem awfully quiet about the Coalition's MIA plan.
The Coalition's plan has been known since 2013. Strategic Reviews and Corporate Plans plenty of detail for an interested person.
Maybe if you keep saying that you'll believe it,
It's as if Labor are trying to pull a fast one on the whirlpool community and they think nobody will notice.
The challenges around the NBN are too big for Labor to leave an announcement until the last week of an election. If Labor are serious about fixing the MTM then they need to say something now so the voters can have time to absorb all the information.
This forum is not about the election it's about the NBN.
To a lot of people this election is about the NBN.
What is the actual plan from the LNP to get jobs and growth?
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer. Under the Coalition, CVC prices have already been cut and Morrow has flagged more cuts in the future.
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan. More people should share in the benefits sooner.
But this is the Labor thread, and I would like to see how Clare intends to improve on Turnbull's careful stewardship of the NBN project.
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is also part of the Coalition's plan.
What % of the current connections are fttn � 5% at most!
The cost has increased as have the time frames.
There is also no minimum speed either.
When are you going to realise that MTM is a disaster.
When are you going to realise that MTM is a disaster.
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
That's the same standard I used for Quigley and Conroy.
Liberals say 25mbps to all premises by 2016, okay cool that'll do.
Labor says more fibre NBN, Liberal monkeys go ape sh!t because it doesn't explain enough.
Irony.
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
That's the same standard I used for Quigley and Conroy.
Except the difference between the current and previous boards is chalk and cheese when it comes to setting targets. So your point is mute moot Kingee.
Edit: 'moot' re read the spello in my post and had to change it out of embarrassment .... schucks!
I wouldn't count on him � he said that if he found himself in the balance of power again he would side with Turnbull.
I think what he said was more along the lines of Turnbull would get first go. Seeing the NATs incumbent has a 13% (adjusted due to redistribution) margin there are right leaning voters he needs to win over.... One of Oakshott's criteria would have to be FTTP...wonder how that will go down.....next please!
MInd you The current member was an Abbot MInister demoted once Turnbull took over (I think) so in the outer amongst peers. Joyce demoted him when he took over as well if irc..... Wonder if he is on the nose with electorate as well....
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer. Under the Coalition, CVC prices have already been cut and Morrow has flagged more cuts in the future.
CVC prices are already lagging behind what they would be as a FTTP based network.
Why? Because FTTN takeup is attrocious. The rollout is facing massive delays, and many areas flatly dont work.
FTTN doesnt pay for itself.
Plus, the OPEX is going to cripple us with costs. And thats showing itself in the ridiculously high CVC prices.
The Coalition's plan has been known since 2013. Strategic Reviews and Corporate Plans plenty of detail for an interested person.
You're kidding, right?
MInd you The current member was an Abbot MInister demoted once Turnbull took over (I think) so in the outer amongst peers. Joyce demoted him when he took over as well if irc..... Wonder if he is on the nose with electorate as well....
You are talking about one of the safest electorates in Australia. The nationals could run a flower arrangement as a candidate and it would probably get in. This unblinking loyalty has of course resulted in a essentially nothing being done for the population in years.
There are changing demographics so there may be hope, however FTTP is already here so I doubt many people care about everyone else who don't have it, as well as its been a disaster of a roll out (mainly because telstra is so heavily involved in these regional towns) that there are very few people who have been happy with the whole NBN experience.
Could he make a difference, god I hope so since my ballot paper may finally be worth something but not holding my breath.
The Coalition says they have a plan for growth while Labor says its policies are about fairness. Turnbull accuses Shorten of having no plan to grow the economy and I suspect many people would agree.
Coalition says they have a Plan Kingy � go on their website and print off the OUR ECONOMIC PLAN document he keeps waving around the place. Like everything else he says it is vapour ware. Attach a copy here please. btw there is an issue section but where is the document. If all there is is the issues stuff then the NBN 'plan' is total rubbish even you should be ashamed of it with all the blind support you offer.
on the NBN front then it comes down to comparing Quigley's record of delivery against Morrow's record.
It's already there and Morrow fails miserably. Lots of happy customers on FTTP very few on FTTN.... bothered to check the FTTN threads lately? More than 14 people 'surveyed' there Kingy..... across the country. Morrow's complicity to destroy NBN is all he can be proud of.
Try my post today with three links to 6CAN thread whrl.pl/ReDO0T
That's the same standard I used for Quigley and Conroy.
The fact that you base your definition of whether something is working or not based on arbitrary numbers (however much data is crunched). Those numbers are still a guess, which means that you are very easily led or realise their arbitrary nature and want to push an agenda.
If you are easily led, the premise is that you are ignorant the numbers you are using are actually predictions.
If you are pushing an agenda you realise the numbers are predictions, but choose to ignore that in order to prove a point.
An arbitrary number determined by the people actually doing the work can be set to whatever satisfies those who want a nice value they can nail their hopes to (i.e. you), no matter how false that hope is. That includes both the previous NBN under Quigley, and the MTM under Morrow.
It's cynically amusing that you think we don't know this, and continue to push those same numbers as some sort of measure of how "successful" the MTM/Morrow is as opposed to the previous NBN/Quigley situation.
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer.
But RSPs are charging much the same price for 25/5 FTTN as I get for 100/40 FTTP ...how is that lower prices for consumers?
AND I GET WHAT I PAY FOR!!!! .....FTTN customer don't!! Living proof KIngy!!
I think what he said was more along the lines of Turnbull would get first go.
In the case of a hung parliament the prime minister gets the first go. That's the rule and that's Turnbull. If Turnbull can form a minority government then Oakeshott will let him. I think Labor will have to win more seats than the Coalition to have a chance of forming government.
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan. More people should share in the benefits sooner.
They should theoretically (having waited 2 � years already to get started), but clearly from the FTTN threads they the customers don't share benefits, they endure total failure. They get dropped off internet all together for days and when they get cut over after a number of cancelled appointments due to 'Network Shortfall' (whatever that is) it fails and fails and speeds drop after a couple of days...and will continue to and settle at much lower speeds than paid for as nodes are populated.
Why are consumers saying they were getting better with their ADSL services than the new FTTN?
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
That's the same standard I used for Quigley and Conroy.
Can't be as the services claimed as delivered RFS etc are supposed to work. Is it not in your standards kit that people are supposed to be able to use the service not just have inactive wires?
CVC prices are already lagging behind what they would be as a FTTP based network.
Why? Because FTTN takeup is attrocious. The rollout is facing massive delays, and many areas flatly dont work.
FTTN doesnt pay for itself.
Plus, the OPEX is going to cripple us with costs. And thats showing itself in the ridiculously high CVC prices.
You can just get a vision of Morrow sitting in Turnbull's office saying ...Mal, your FTTN Plan, the one you made me try and build, doesn't work and isn't earning any revenue. You are making me look bad. What are we going to do....? (polite version)
I wonder if FTTP pops up in their thoughts and discussions...
Why are consumers saying they were getting better with their ADSL services than the new FTTN?
Yup its a question that needs to be answered.
Billion of $$$ been spent on something worse than ADSL its just mind boggling.
You are talking about one of the safest electorates in Australia. The nationals could run a flower arrangement as a candidate and it would probably get in.
If you look at the makeup of the votes, there was a lot of votes to Greens and Country Labor even 5% PUP. Add to that some of Oakshott's previous seat is now in there including where he lives which you would expect could in fact go fairly strongly to him, he could go close. Add his track record and the fact he says it was not a last minute decision suggests he may have been asked to run. He's no fool and has no doubt been working on it for some time and would not be wanting to waste his time.... FTTP movement needs Oakshott.
Just because there is some FTTP there doesn't mean it is not an issue. They have the joy and would understand what their 'brothers and sisters' who don't are missing out on and how stupid it is not to do it Australia wide.
Oh there are pockets of Nationals resistance, but there needs to be a mass geriatric die off before there is going to be much chance. You could be right about Port, but there are still a large number of people who still haven't forgiven him for Labor support (although now even the coalition have dumped Abbott maybe they will be more forgiving).
Just because there is some FTTP there doesn't mean it is not an issue. They have the joy and would understand what their 'brothers and sisters' who don't are missing out on and how stupid it is not to do it Australia wide.
I suppose that's my point, from their point of view there is no joy. Congestion is a massive problem here, multiple drop outs, Telstra has been a complete disaster as a retailer rolling out NBN but they just blame NBNCo. We took 19months and 9 tech visits to get fibre to the business premise (its smack in the middle of the CBD) due to their incompetence.
Until I started reading on here about the disaster (predictable one) of FTTN even I questioned how useful FTTP was really being (losing business lines every time the internet goes down is painful, and there is bugger all understanding of the system in town). This has obviously been compounded by the complete cut off from FTTP for the rest of the country so retailers/NBN really don't have a strong interest in correcting these issues.
I won't even start on Fixed wireless with huge number of premises being stuck on to satellite (once the ADSL is killed which may be never thank god) due to stupidly strict rules about installation requirements that have since been massively relaxed because they were unworkable.
Are we a thousands times better of compared to FTTN, of course. Does the average punter realise that... not a chance.
You can just get a vision of Morrow sitting in Turnbull's office saying ...Mal, your FTTN Plan, the one you made me try and build, doesn't work and isn't earning any revenue. You are making me look bad. What are we going to do....? (polite version)
Turnbull looks at then points to Bill
"You it is all your fault, you must be a Labor stooge, MY plan was perfect, you have sabotaged it, you must be a fibre zealot, you must have been the actual leaker, not the poor patsies you told to do it, AFP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lock this man up, he has sullied my perfect plan"
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan.
Big fat fail on that no matter how you try and measure it.
Are we a thousands times better of compared to FTTN, of course. Does the average punter realise that... not a chance
Well it sounds like quite a mess. One wonders how much of the time delays and messy build are attributable to Telstra remediation etc.- well known fact they don't have a great track record with design drawings for existing infrastructure nor state of their network.
Ultimately though user satisfaction is what will make people's minds up. If they get to see/hear about FTTN experience they may just consider themselves pretty lucky.
I wish Oakeshott every bit of luck for Australia's sake. He and Windsor were a breath of fresh air and not surprised they 'took time off', must have been extremely draining.
This has obviously been compounded by the complete cut off from FTTP for the rest of the country so retailers/NBN really don't have a strong interest in correcting these issues.
A very good point Beldather. Certainly we've talked about the importance of KISS here in these threads but a loss of knowledge and expertise in managing FttP is going to be a likely casualty too.
This forum is not about the election it's about the NBN
Exactly, even though most of your comments are purely politically based.
I wish Oakeshott every bit of luck for Australia's sake
As much as I'm skeptical on his chances you have no idea who much I agree with your statement.
This forum is not about the election it's about the NBN.
Exactly, even though most of your comments are purely politically based.
Good response Melbourne Skywalker.
I wonder if FTTP pops up in their thoughts and discussions...
Murdoch wouldn't like it... so no, it doesn't.
I sincerely hope that myself and Mark Gregory are going to be on the money when it comes to the best political strategy for Federal Labor on the NBN pre-election. Hopefully Federal Labor already had the smarts to come to this conclusion before Mark and myself (via Whirlpool) posted similar advice.
Labor�s NBN silence
Bill Shorten is better off keeping the details of his first-rate fibre NBN close to his chest until the election is sorted.
Citing anything from the australian means you're citing the ultra right-wing. So no, I hope you and Mark are talking out your asses. (which he usually is)
I sincerely hope that myself and Mark Gregory
I always appreciate and respect Mark Gregory's views and opinions.
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer.
They're already spectacularly failed at that, so tell us again what is their plan?
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan.
That's another thing they have spectacularly failed at, as you know full well.
But this is the Labor thread, and I would like to see how Clare intends to improve on Turnbull's careful stewardship of the NBN project.
LOL, so destroying something is a sign of careful stewardship in your mind?
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
$29.5 billion for 25Mbps to all by 2016 � epic fail.
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer.
Bahahahahahahah:)
They've actually increased CAPEX and they've decreased revenue as many people do not want to buy Fraudband and more importatnly Fraudband cannot deliver the higher speed plans that people were prepared to pay more money for!!
I think you need to check your facts before you keep dribbling the same old LNP lies, lies and more lies.
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan.
Oh mate you're on fire tonight � LMFAO � bahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahha.
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
How about a target set by their shareholder � you know that one where all of us were going to get 25/5 by end of 2016 � bahahahahahahahahahaha:)
As much as I'm skeptical on his chances you have no idea who much I agree with your statement.
I'd recommend any FTTP tragics that have the same sentiment to watch a fairly insightful ABC Drum tonight. John Adams Economist ex Sinodinis advisor now advising a couple of small parties has some interesting views. We just might get our wish...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
Since there will be no policy differences on the NBN front then it comes down to comparing Quigley's record of delivery against Morrow's record.
There will be significant policy difference in the simple fact that the Libs irrationally refuse to consider any more fibre, even that it is demonstrably better value than FTTN, and Labor have said many times now they will bee increasing fibre.
The reality of Morrow's legacy is that the only real progress made under his watch was thanks to Quigley and Labor. Morrow has stuff all to show for his efforts after nearly three years, and what they have built has massive problems. Truly woeful!
Mark and myself (via Whirlpool)
serendipity � I think the key is that Labor has options � possibly just to point out how bad Turnbull was a communications minister and why the MTM NBN is a national disgrace.
ultra right-wing
I think you're being a little too hard here on many accounts and should consider that many people are simply concerned that the NBN is a nation building project that is vital if Australia is to become a leader in the global digital economy. Is it wrong to argue that Australia needs a stronger economy and that an all fibre NBN will help? You don't have to be ultra right-wing to want Australia to succeed.
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer.
Failed on both counts.
Under the Coalition, CVC prices have already been cut and Morrow has flagged more cuts in the future.
CVC was to fall under Labor as well. Fail again.
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan.
MASSIVE Fail. The NBN is still primarily FTTP, fixed wireless and satellite after nearly 3 years. What percentage of the population with NBN have FTTN or upgrade HFC, which were the bits that the Libs are actually responsible for? Cheaper, faster, neither!
But this is the Labor thread, and I would like to see how Clare intends to improve on Turnbull's careful stewardship of the NBN project. HAHAHAHA. Thats the funniest thing I have seen for months. The actual title of a thread has never stopped you bleating on about Labor.
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
The targets are meaningless when they set them so low they cant be missed.
That's the same standard I used for Quigley and Conroy.
Bahahahahaha! Sorry, I take the previous post back. THIS is the funniest thing I have seen in months!!! What an absolute crock of crap. For example you criticised Conroy and Quigley for using premises passed as a metric, and now that Morrow and the Libs are doing it, we dont hear a peep from you about it. Absolute hypocrite!
Why? Because FTTN takeup is attrocious.
That is because it largely doesnt work. Soo many problems with it and repeated tech visits to pillars and premises to fix the issues are going to see the cost continue to blow out. The best hope is for Labor to win government so we head back to doing it properly with fibre.
FTTN doesnt pay for itself.
Correct. The NBN business case does not stack up. Never has. Kingforce will defend it till the cows come home, but cannot show how it actually adds up or makes sense. Even Ziggy has said FTTP upgrades will be needed in 5 years. There is absolutely no way that NBN Co can recoup their investment(??) in that short timeframe.
For example you criticised Conroy and Quigley for using premises passed as a metric, and now that Morrow and the Libs are doing it, we dont hear a peep from you about it. Absolute hypocrite!
Paticularly as it appars to be a total con. Consumers are pointing out that they are advised to contact RSPs � presumably because it's all RFS and whammo � Network Shortfall.... Does NBN Co still have a list of definitions for terminology? It would be nice to know what that means in actual fact...one presumes 'not built yet'... falsifying statistics is pretty poor stuff. Must say though that falsifying Strategic Review and Cost Benefit Analysis (what a misnoma that is) is as low as it gets... shame Kingy and his mates revere that....
I think you're being a little too hard here on many accounts
guilt by association I suspect. Little in the Australian bears credibility so to have an article printed in there is immediately tainted unfortunately even though one might not be on staff.....
Absolute hypocrite!
Oh come on Kingforce has been "critical" of the coalitions MTM.
Somewhere..
Hmmm nope..
I was wrong!
KF is a complete hypocrite.. :0>
When NBN Co miss targets set by the board.
They missed the 29.5 billion by 2016 for 25mbs for all � fttn is also a disaster as it doesn't pay for itself.
Keep defending the mtm � you should have a meeting in a phone box with all the supporters.
Turnbull's careful stewardship of the NBN project
This is like describing the Roman Catholic Church's careful oversight of vulnerable children's welfare.
By reducing the capex spend on the NBN to lower prices for the end consumer. Under the Coalition, CVC prices have already been cut and Morrow has flagged more cuts in the future.
So the 'savings' on the 30k FTTN connections allowed this, not the 1M FTTP connections with 70% lower opex?
Also getting the NBN out to as many people as possible as quickly as possible is part of the Coalition's plan. More people should share in the benefits sooner.
But not what was actually done. If that was done, the FTTP brownfields rollout would have continued until FTTN could be rolled out at speed.
MTM was a 100% political decision.
But this is the Labor thread, and I would like to see how Clare intends to improve on Turnbull's careful stewardship of the NBN project
He could do nothing at all and still not be as bad as Turnbull and our current puppet.
Surprise surprise Turnbull has found the funds to put FTTN and fixed wireless into western tasmania. Goes to highlight that the Coalition are more interested in saving seats than sticking to their economically ridiculous second rate NBN. What a backflip, what a disgrace.
fttn is also a disaster as it doesn't pay for itself.
Reason enough for private interests not to build it for years....Overseas though FTTP is being built by companies that see the profits rolling in...
Surprise surprise Turnbull has found the funds to put FTTN and fixed wireless into western tasmania. Goes to highlight that the Coalition are more interested in saving seats than sticking to their economically ridiculous second rate NBN. What a backflip, what a disgrace.
Labor said they would do FTTP iirc. So they are going to have to run Fibre through there anyway to do FTTN. Wonder what the incremental cost of doing FTTP over FTTN would be? Taking into account they can't do FTTN right anywhere in Australia if FTTN threads are to be believed ...and they should. Also, one might expect western tassie would have old, weathered and near to useless copper which would need to be replaced.
There is a name for those that sell their'soul' for gain.....
A backflip � big time!!
A disgrace � BIG TIME!!
A farce � Absolutely!!!
LNP must be very very worried � they should be, they have no policies just 'carrots' � will Australian's allow themselves to be so blatantly demeaned....
Surprise surprise Turnbull has found the funds to put FTTN and fixed wireless into western tasmania.
Will that be on the same basis as Turnbull's promise to honour all FttP contracts in Tasmania at the last election?
Surprise surprise Turnbull has found the funds to put FTTN and fixed wireless into western tasmania.
Does anyone have a link for this? I can't find anything and I want to know exactly the words he used.
LNP must be very very worried � they should be, they have no policies
I am definitely not supporting the LNP with this comment, but Labor are STILL yet to announce their NBN policy. So I certainly wouldn't be having a go at the LNP for not having a decent policy when Labor doesn't even have one on the table.
Does anyone have a link for this?
See whrl.pl/ReDRkH
Edit: the link is broken � you need to manually add the 's-west-coast-towns-coalition-pledge/7502292 to your browsers URL bar.
See whrl.pl/ReDRkH
Thanks. I've managed to find the official release ...
A re-elected Turnbull Liberal Team will deliver FTTN to Queenstown, Rosebery and Zeehan, and Fixed Wireless to Strahan.
http://www.brettwh
Let's see them wriggle out of that one.
Why give them a chance?
For the first time in my life I'm in a marginal seat. I'll vote the same way I always do and for the same reasons. This time it might matter.
Let's see them wriggle out of that one.
I like the key components at the bottom.
Our $18.5 million plan is fully costed
Gee where have we heard that one before?
Our plan will use the NBN �Technology Choice� program
Ah so if they do go ahead and do it, it's so they can say there have been all these premises which have used the "Technology Choice" program.
The Turnbull Government�s plan is clear and provides certainty to the West Coast.
Like the certainty of promising to honor the FTTP contracts?
Seeing how they wiggled out of honoring FTTP I don't see why they couldn't wiggle out of this.
Ah so if they do go ahead and do it, it's so they can say there have been all these premises which have used the "Technology Choice" program.
wasn't the "technology choice program" for converting FTTN to FTTP or Sat or Fixed wireless to FTTP
not for converting Fixed Wireless or Sat to FTTN
wasn't the "technology choice program" for converting FTTN to FTTP or Sat or Fixed wireless to FTTP
not for converting Fixed Wireless or Sat to FTTN
Nope.
http://www.nbnco.com.a
The table below, lists the options that are available for Area Switch and Individual Premises Switch.
FTTB to FTTP
FTTN to FTTP
Fixed wireless to FTTP
Fixed wireless to FTTN
Fixed wireless to FTTB
Satellite to Fixed wireless
Satellite to FTTP
Satellite to FTTN
Satellite to FTTB
HFC to FTTP
You could bet though if they do give TAS FTTN and someone asks how many have used TC to get FTTP they'd just reply "There have been thousands of people benefit from the TC program to switch technologies" and just keep repeating that and specifically not say how many got FTTP out of it.
wasn't the "technology choice program" for converting FTTN to FTTP or Sat or Fixed wireless to FTTP
not for converting Fixed Wireless or Sat to FTTN
Favourite game for LNP particularly when it comes to FTTP � shift the goal posts....
Why wouldn't all the councils and towns that have been screaming at NBN Co and their local members be hammering the media tomorrow with the precedent set now by LNP. If they claim NBN Co decision only , not LNP, then caretaker convention breach is quite apparent.
Under the Coalition, CVC prices have already been cut
As they would have under labor, look at their past corp plans, they showed that it would have dropped about a $1.50 by the time we got to the same average monthly download we have on NBN services now, which admittedly isn't as much as the $2.50 drop Morrow made early to the forecasts. However, one of the risks that NBN Co's management identified is that average data usage would be lower under MTM than it would have been under an all fibre rollout, so we will never know what would of happened because its unknowable, but if the 2013-2016 corp plan figures were achieved, there would have been about 1.6 million more premises passed than there are now, and it would have been done with fibre with its higher usage.
and Morrow has flagged more cuts in the future
As did every Quigley lead NBN Co Corp plan, including a nice little graph showing when and how much by (in terms of data usage, not by date)
Let's see them wriggle out of that one
This promise means nothing. If the Libs were about keeping their promises Tasmania would still be getting FTTP rolled out as per the signed contract that existed before the last election that they promised to honor.
Ah so if they do go ahead and do it, it's so they can say there have been all these premises which have used the "Technology Choice" program.
Who chose the technology? FTTP was the best option before the last election and there was a contract in place it roll it out which the Libs promised to honor. Why is it different now? Where is the evidence and analysis? It appears that "technologically agnostic" still means chose anything as long as it isn't FTTP!
It appears that "technologically agnostic" still means chose anything as long as it isn't FTTP!
It is a cost thing...not political.../s
The Tasmanian govt is providing $4.5M of state taxes to make that happen. Wonder if it would happen if the current member was a Labor rep......
Tassie taxpayers should be pee'd off as to why Braddon gets special treatment....others don't...
Nope.
http://www.nbnco.com.
ok, it seems to have been well and truly re-written evolved clarified since I first read it.
I may have also been concentrating on individual premises rather than "area switch"
But I will say that my recollections of Morrow's and other's answers in Senate Hearings only ever mentioned switches to FTTP
But I will say that my recollections of Morrow's and other's answers in Senate Hearings only ever mentioned switches to FTTP
That is my recollection as well. Not that my wife holds much faith in my recollections. :)
Hard to remember everything but I think it's probably just a matter of whenever someone talked about FOD or getting FTTP instead of what they were getting they'd always say if people were willing to pay for it then they could get it through the Technology Choice program.
So not explicitly saying TC was FTTP only but also not saying other technologies were also options and basically only ever mentioning TC when someone was talking about FTTP giving the impression that TC was about just switching to FTTP.
So not explicitly saying TC was FTTP only but also not saying other technologies were also options and basically only ever mentioning TC when someone was talking about FTTP giving the impression that TC was about just switching to FTTP.
yeah I know, especially as how nbn� seem to danced around the edges with their answers to very specific questions, any question that could be considered "vague" would permit them to provide partially accurate rather than fully accurate answers
That is my recollection as well. Not that my wife holds much faith in my recollections. :)
Initially that was all that was available but they did say that further choices would become available later.
yeah I know, especially as how nbn� seem to danced around the edges with their answers to very specific questions, any question that could be considered "vague" would permit them to provide partially accurate rather than fully accurate answers
Fine example is Morrison on Insiders today � talk about 'dance around the questions...' They don't need to be vague either. Hate to think what sort of obfuscation will emanate when Labor NBN Policy is announced. I noted the expectation by panelists for Labor announcement of how much Labor's NBN will cost (last announcement they expect it seems...). Shame it appears that cost is all they are interested in as if cost is all that counts not cost benefit or contribution to Australia's economy or attached social benefits. This country has become quite anal with that IMO � so short sighted.
I noted the expectation by panelists for Labor announcement of how much Labor's NBN will cost (last announcement they expect it seems...). Shame it appears that cost is all they are interested in as if cost is all that counts not cost benefit or contribution to Australia's economy or attached social benefits.
Did you see DiNatale last week? He took Barry to task over the focus on deficits and surpluses.
He nailed it IMHO, he talked about productive/good debt and that the cost of government borrowing was at an all time low. It is a good time for spending on productive infrastructure.
It is a good time for spending on productive infrastructure.
Too right...Lowest interest rate ever and as Turnbull himself says one of best economies in the world...time for big infrastructure on the cheap...and the LNP have done very little in near 3yrs other than go down the age old political route of roads roads roads and stuffed the NBN opportunity.
Labor will move today to cash in on one of its key electoral strengths by promising a National Broadband Network in which two million more homes and businesses will have fibre connected straight to the premises, ending Malcolm Turnbull's approach of using obsolete fibre-to-the node copper technology.
Here we go :)
Here we go :)
Devil will be in the detail..... If it costs $1B more (on upper figure) than nbn FTTN MTM then the cost (Morrow claims ~$8B) of switching back to FTTP is totally accountable to Turnbull and LNP disaster with 'real' cost of FTTP build ~$49B (top figure) up from $43B for NBN V1. The $49B also must include whatever the cost of change was from FTTP to MTM.
When one looks at opportunity cost of attempted destruction of FTTP one can only conclude what a farce Turnbull's economic management capabilities are.....
what a farce Turnbull's economic management capabilities are.....
I look forward to this post being edited to what a farce Turnbull's economic management capabilities were
I look forward to this post being edited to what a farce Turnbull's economic management capabilities were
Well there are three weeks opportunity for Labor to clearly identify and drive home the economic management failures, with the Labor NBN policy release now to be the day before early voters can vote. Hope they take notice.
New policy:
Cost 49 � 57 billion
By 2022
39% FTTP (cannot breach 57 billion cost cap)
Here too:
Unfortunately, I think most of the media thunder on this is going to be stolen by the Orlando shooting. As usual, the NBN gets ignored.
Not too happy at waking up to a headline of
Federal election 2016: ALP retreat on NBN ambitions
Labor has scaled back its original ambitions for the NBN but will commit an extra $3.4 billion in capital expenditure.
Note the no mention of the copper stopper in the headlines with the online article. In what appears to be a deliberate attempt to make it look like the only difference in the NBN policy from the Federal Coalition is $3.4B. Knowing that most people only look at the headlines and don't read any further. Hopefully this editorial decision will piss off lots of the Australian readers, lots of Australian employees, lots of Australian partners and lots of Australian businesses.
If that's the best that Murdoch's editorial hacks can come up with to sledge the trailer to Federal Labor's NBN policy, then I'd consider the Policy release a success.
Having skimmed through the spin the MSM has put on the Federal Labor NBN policy trailer this early morning, my initial reaction is a thumbs up on the trailer.
Let's see how things progress from here when they release their full NBN policy sometime today, or get questioned on contentious areas such as FTTB, Optus HFC, Technology Choice/FoD, CVC, POI, backhaul, FTTdp, Docsis 3.1, fixed line/mobile blackspots and the underserved .
Let's see what the detail is in this policy announcement. Looking and listening to the media this morning the tragic shooting in Orlando, Florida will overwhelm everything else in the news cycle today. But do the 20th century media really want to give a full and truthful discussion on communications for the 21st century?
The massive changes have dramatically altered the business to control the environment. Self interest usually wins and they aren't happy with the direction the Forth Estate has to face. I think we know what to expect.
Labor would upgrade NBN to fibre-to-the-premises
A Shorten government would upgrade the National Broadband Network (NBN), rolling out fibre-to-the premises (FTTP) to up to two million extra homes and businesses.
But the better NBN would not cost the taxpayers more, the ALP promises.
https://theconvers
Nice I guess but they are assuming the cost is still 56 billion. There is at least the 2.1 billion Telstra HFC deal to add on top and any other cost increase in the last six months.
...move to other thread
Hearing on ABC News 24 that an announcement on NBN is due out today from Labor
Mentioned to be "increasing fibre to premise connections" going to be interesting to see the response from that "other mob"
The media release
http://www.billshorte
The Federal Labor NBN Policy launchpad
http://www.100posit
The 33 page policy pdf
https://cdn.australianlab
Surprise surprise Turnbull has found the funds to put FTTN and fixed wireless into western tasmania.
But will Tasmanians believe a Turnbull NBN Election Promise* a second time?
Fool me once...
going to be interesting to see the response from that "other mob"
Not really it would be the same kind of bollocks they were saying before they were in power.
Be predictable as usual.
So the new "NBN" is looking to hire Irish nationals to do the job they won't allow Australians to do.
Whereas on p3 of the MTM's biggest supporter's https://www.thesun.co.uk/ readers and viewers too often get a dose fake body parts, on p3 of the 33 page Federal Labor NBN policy we get something a little more substantial, nation building and real.
https://cdn.australianlabor.
MALCOLM TURNBULL�S
RECORD OF NBN FAILURE Over the last three years Australia has witnessed a series of spectacular failures from Mr Turnbull�s mismanagement of this critical infrastructure project:
� Mr Turnbull promised he would build his second-rate copper NBN for $29.5 billion. This cost has now nearly doubled to up to $56 billion.
- He promised that all Australians would have access to the NBN in three years � by 2016. This timeframe has more than doubled to 2020, and most likely will not happen until June 2022.
� The cost of patching up the old copper network has blown out by more than 1,000 per cent, from $55 million in 2013 to more than $640 million.
� The cost of Malcolm Turnbull�s second-rate copper NBN has almost tripled, from $600 a home in 2013 to $1,600 a home.
� Not a single paying customer has been connected to Malcolm Turnbull�s PayTV network. In 2013 he said 2.61 million homes would have access this year.
- The financial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has crashed from 7.1 per cent to as low as 2.7 per cent.
Where Malcolm Turnbull has managed to switch on his second-rate copper NBN, it has been plagued with problems, including slow speeds, long connection delays and disrupted services.
Mr Turnbull�s incompetence on the NBN has had severe consequences for our nation. Currently, less than 20 per cent of the country can access the NBN, and Australia has slipped from 30th in the world for internet speeds to 60th
So the new "NBN" is looking to hire Irish nationals to do the job they won't allow Australians to do.
https://www.crikey.com.au/20
When talking about what he faced as the minister responsible for NBN, Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull was fond of recalling a joke about asking for directions from a pub in Ireland and being told �I wouldn�t start from here�.
So what is Turnbull's GBE now doing? It's trying to ramp up and kick-start the flopping and flapping copper flopper Network by starting from there (Ireland). Only accelerating the financial losses in the process by ramping up capital and operational expenditure faster and losses faster than NBN wholesale revenue can keep up with.
I really wish both parties would come to an agreement over not using the NBN as a political football for the detriment of this country. 16 years of 6Mbit ADSL and counting in the SE Subs of Melbourne.........
Jason Clare on ABC News Breakfast.
Wow. Federal Labors 33 page NBN policy document really gets stuck into Malcolm Turnbull's Mess after the p3 annihilation summary including the following well deserved kick in the guts.
https://cdn.australianlabor.
In 2014, Mr Turnbull conducted a flawed cost benefit analysis in an attempt to justify his second-rate NBN. In August 2013, he promised that the Liberals would �do a rigorous analysis, we will get Infrastructure Australia to do an independent cost benefit analysis.� Instead, Mr Turnbull appointed a panel which featured a noted and strident critic of the NBN. The staff of the panel also featured numerous Liberal advisors.
Mr Turnbull�s cost benefit analysis has since been proved hopelessly wrong. One of its more absurd assumptions was the forecast that the median household will require only 15 megabits per second by 2023. This forecast has been rejected by many in the telecommunications sector, including the Chief Executive Officer of NBN Co, Bill Morrow
Wow. Federal Labors 33 page NBN policy document really gets stuck into Malcolm Turnbull's Mess
So it should!
Looks a bit bleak for those already in FTTN build commenced/completed areas. Very little in terms of how they will be moved over, only that they plan to have a plan....
Nothing on CVC/POI congestion.
Nothing on Node back-haul,
But I suppose these are too technical for a sales brochure.
Looks good otherwise.
Looks a bit bleak for those already in FTTN build commenced/completed areas. Very little in terms of how they will be moved over, only that they plan to have a plan....
Not a plan actually, they will form a commission to make a plan. This is why I have lobbied so hard with my local council to refuse FTTN here...successfully thank God.
Federal Labors 33 page NBN policy document ...
Thanks for the link. It looks like it''s scenario 4 then, except for the FTTN already committed. I wish they'd gone for this when the SR came out but at least they've done it now.
Are they still talking full FTTP as the end goal?
Are they still talking full FTTP as the end goal?
This is the end game, what year though is anyone's guess.
Cancel FTTN where they can, upgrade HFC (if done properly then I'll be happy with 100mbs) and make sure fttn areas have increased backhaul.
Are they still talking full FTTP as the end goal?
That's the way it looks to me...though I couldn't see anything about HFC in the document (I must have missed it).
Jason Clare on ABC News Breakfast.
That was not a bad summary. Fibre has been stilted, they have to accept that.
I love that he underlined that this is not taxpayer funded; but rather private investment funded, and that it will be a paying proposition.
That segement by Jason Clare deserves to be replayed a lot.
Are they still talking full FTTP as the end goal?
Only mention of upgrading FTTX to FTTP via an Infrastructure Australia based review.
No mention of what happens to HFC longer term.
Wise move, as the outcome of the HFC upgrades, Docsis 3.1 and the viability and cost effectiveness to having so many HFC premises and a wholesale HFC network being shared with a PayTV provider, has too many unknowns.
I think Mark Gregory is going to be rather chuffed with the Labor HFC Policy document. I most certainly am. Nice work "guys".
I am surprised that FTTdp was not mentioned at all...
Are they still talking full FTTP as the end goal?
Not sure at this point. Certainly seems to be for FTTN areas, but HFC doesn't get a mention.
I'm somewhat disappointed by the lack of policy, which is really a Turnbull attack document. There are still huge amount of unknowns around MDU's, FoD, CVC, etc. It doesn't change my view of Clare.
I am surprised that FTTdp was not mentioned at all...
It is on page 19:
Fibre-to-the-premises is a proven technology. An emerging technology � known as fibreto-the-distribution-point
or �fibre-to-the-driveway� � has the potential to deliver fast and reliable
broadband while reducing customer connection costs. This is a new technology which
has not yet been rolled out at scale. Labor will further explore the potential of this technology
in government
They might use fttdp to upgrade fttn areas?
That's the way it looks to me...though I couldn't see anything about HFC in the document (I must have missed it).
Last para on page 19 ...
Under Labor, the rollout of HFC (PayTV) will continue, recognising the contracts in place, the
substantial capital expenditure already sunk, and the constraints placed on future governments
by Mr Turnbull in the revised Definitive Agreements. The rollout of Labor�s fixed wireless and
satellite networks, and fibre-to-the-basement, will also continue. Greenfields will be delivered
fibre-to-the-premises.
Greenfields will be delivered
fibre-to-the-premises.
Another area with lack of detail. FTTP Greenfields has dried up a lot with the new charges, and majority of areas are being deployed with copper. We're now seeing new copper, new pillars and new nodes to boot in Greenfield areas. Are Labor going to revert the charges? Regulate to FTTP?
...nvm
Looks a bit bleak for those already in FTTN build commenced/completed areas. Very little in terms of how they will be moved over, only that they plan to have a plan....
Nothing on CVC/POI congestion.
Nothing on Node back-haul,
Yep, the only thing mentioned was this:
Labor will also commission Infrastructure Australia, with input from relevant experts, to manage the development of a plan that outlines how and when the parts of Australia left with Mr Turnbull�s second rate NBN should be transitioned to Fibre-to-the-Premises. This plan will be commissioned in the first term of a Shorten Labor Government.
So as predicted I'm left with two options as far as FTTP goes, either pay for my own or move.
So as predicted I'm left with two options as far as FTTP goes, either pay for my own or move.
You can the LNP for that one � they changed the policy and we now have the current mess.
You can the LNP for that one � they changed the policy and we now have the current mess.
I personally don't care who to blame, just stating the true fact of the situation for those of us stuck in FTTN areas who want FTTP.
It's still a good plan considering the mess they have been left with.
Another area with lack of detail. FTTP Greenfields has dried up a lot with the new charges, and majority of areas are being deployed with copper. We're now seeing new copper, new pillars and new nodes to boot in Greenfield areas. Are Labor going to revert the charges? Regulate to FTTP?
IMO what will happen with greenfield FTTN deployments is they will probably be last to get upgraded to FTTN. It's fresh copper, hopefully it will last some time and provide enough speed for people to get by.
other areas are going to be a higher priority, namely DSL only premises
I personally don't care who to blame, just stating the true fact of the situation for those of us stuck in FTTN areas who want FTTP.
It's still a good plan considering the mess they have been left with.
I am so thankful that I live in Armidale � and have had fibre thanks to Tony Windsor.
The power of the FTTH to stir people in the National Party heartland ( such as Tamworth) is kinda gratifying.
We told you so...
and majority of areas are being deployed with copper.
Do you have a source for that? I thought the Libs were still going to have FTTP in greenfields. If this is really happening, it defies words. Unbelievable.
That's the way it looks to me...though I couldn't see anything about HFC in the document (I must have missed it).
It seems to indicate to me that the HFC contracts have been signed and they are forced to use it hence the only 40% FTTP.
If this is really happening, it defies words. Unbelievable.
It is, copper is the new default greenfield option unless the developer opts to pay for fibre.
https://cdn.australianlabor.
Residents and small businesses who want fibre have to pay about ten thousand dollars to get it.
That statement jumped out at me. What about those that want fibre and can't get it even if they have the about $10,000. Makes sound like there actually is a FoD option under the Federal Coalition.
It is, copper is the new default greenfield option unless the developer opts to pay for fibre.
That is the most boneheaded decision.
I personally don't care who to blame, just stating the true fact of the situation for those of us stuck in FTTN areas who want FTTP.
The thing is that when the LNP decided to meddle with the NBN, they changed a whole lot of parameters in the build.
Given the reality of growth and the projected life of a network, there was capacity and redundancy (now) built in so that future growth could be accommodated. The LNP decided that this was gold plating and reduced this. As a result, it is not possible to simply change tack because some of the key features have been removed by the LNP.
It is because of this that the only logical way forward is to do what can be done with what has been left, and the go back and upgrade those areas that have been locked in by the LNP.
So, it is something that can be sheeted right back to the LNP. The problem is that if the LNP get back in, there will be even more areas locked into an outdated technology, and when a change is eventually made by an incoming government, even less will be able to be done to get FTTP in straightaway, and even more will have an even longer wait to get a barely adequate broadband connection.
It really is in the hands of the voters, If voters re-elect the LNP, they are saying they are more than happy with what they have well into the future.
It is, copper is the new default greenfield option unless the developer opts to pay for fibre.
For developments under 100 premises Telstra is still the provider of last resort as it was under Labor, unfortunately Telstra is supplying copper for most new developments as they don't want to invest in fibre only to wholesale it.
For Greenfields over 100 premises NBNco is the provider of last resort.
file:///D:/Dre%20Documents/D
If I have read that wrong then please correct me.
That part of the policy really needs fixing, we should not be rolling out copper to any greenfields.
I thought the Libs were still going to have FTTP in greenfields.
The regulation was loosened by Turnbull to allow any technology in the multi-technology mix to service greenfields. Morrow indicated that this was because he wanted to be able to put FTTN into new estates.
That statement jumped out at me. What about those that want fibre and can't get it even if they have the about $10,000. Makes sound like there actually is a FoD option under the Federal Coalition.
well officially/publicly there is a FoD option
but YMMV
Mark Gregory is going to be rather chuffed
The key is the need to let existing contracts run their course so that the rollout is not delayed further. Australians want the NBN rollout to be completed, so this must be a primary goal and Labor's approach is to ensure the rollout does not slow.
FTTN is an obsolete technology so Labor's plan to move back to FTTP is the right outcome. But it does mean that there will need to be work carried out in the future to replace the 21% FTTN with FTTP and a decision made whether or not to upgrade the HFC (34%) to DOCSIS 3.1 or to replace with FTTP, so we can expect Infrastructure Australia to be involved in determining the best approach (from the information available at this point the smart money would be on FTTP).
Overall Labor has released a pragmatic, fiscally responsible and sensible plan that should be supported.
Those left with substandard broadband in the short term can only blame Turnbull and the Coalition.
The regulation was loosened by Turnbull to allow any technology in the multi-technology mix to service greenfields.
Wow, that I didn't know. That's just plain crazy, so even with NBNco as provider of last resort they might deploy FTTN to a greenfield? That's crazy.
It is, copper is the new default greenfield option unless the developer opts to pay for fibre.
Unbelievable. I would have thought FTTP wasn't any dearer in greenfields, and maybe cheaper.
For Greenfields over 100 premises NBNco is the provider of last resort.
Thats correct, but they can choose to take on developments under 100 premises if economical to do so.
For developments under 100 premises Telstra is still the provider of last resort
However the developments mentioned are not getting Telstra copper, they are getting an NBN nodes stood up and running all new copper.
(from the information available at this point the smart money would be on FTTP).
This here, HFC is expensive to run, I do fully expect that IA's recommendation will be to replace it at the earliest possible point, however, the Foxtel spectrum continuity deed is going to be a large part of that decision. The network must be maintained for the purpose of delivering Foxtel until the end of the deal. So I would expect the Optus only HFC areas, which do not have such condition, will be the first to go.
That's just plain crazy, so even with NBNco as provider of last resort they might deploy FTTN to a greenfield?
Not might, do.
I would have thought FTTP wasn't any dearer in greenfields, and maybe cheaper.
Under the stewardship of Ziggy and Bill they are paying the installers more for less, so the cost per premises has gone up, which is the justification for using FTTN, also for estates that want it to be FTTP they charge them more, so its a nice little money making racket they have going on.
EDIT: oops hit post too early.
The key is the need to let existing contracts run their course so that the rollout is not delayed further.
This is a great concern for HFC. By having already signed the construction contracts, and purchase order for CMTS' with Arris, the HFC cost is pretty much already sunk. We are bound into the rollout whether we like it or not.
Those left with substandard broadband in the short term can only blame Turnbull and the Coalition.
The impact of which, is yet to be fully realised by those who have been consigned edit "Bulldozed" into the Digital Abyss that turnbull's obsolete copper provides for!
Here's but a portent of what to expect from the network that turnbull openly stated he has modelled what effectively can only be described as his alternative "Fraudband" network on!
Unsurprisingly turnbull and co nor those complicit within the LNP "don't" include the business impact cost! � of these MBORC incidents � when they continue to defend their now blown to buggery $56 billion and climbing MTM alternative to Labor's more reliable and future proof FTTH network.
Australian business simply can't operate on an unguaranteed UPTO 25Mbps Peak Speed obsolete copper network and therefore will have to continue to provision privatised copper to their premises at I might add considerable further cost to the Federal budget and this is but yet another of many other items not currently included in the LNP's misleading cost of the their obsolete copper yet to � and pardon the pun "come to light" in the utter debacle they are responsible for to date.
Here's a list we drew up at the last election that pretty much still is yet to be answered fully on what these costs are!
a) The real market costing of their FTTN model to implement
b) The cost of procuring access to Telstra's existing copper network multiplied over the lifecycle of their FTTN network
c) The cost of providing "Fair Compensation" to Telstra for the loss of revenue that their copper network would have otherwise provided their shareholders with, and will now lose due to it being acquired by the LNP for their FTTN network
d) The loss of benefits that would have otherwise been derived in a full FTTH network eg Loss to GDP of 4 percent for each iterative doubling of Broadband Speed as identified in a 3 year study covering 33 OECD countries including Australia.
e) The loss of reductions in the costs of delivery of Government services across all sectors
f) The financial impact of not having modern Telehealth initiatives available for citizens across the entire health network related to "Next edit Now Generation technology"
h) The interest cost of Government borrowings on the now "On Budget" Liberal Alternative
i) The cost of the loss opportunity cost of that money on top of the previous
j) The loss of revenue that will necessarily be incurred in higher Telecommunications charges that are currently written off as a business expense
k) The loss of Government revenue due to the LNP's infrastructure competition policy which will see Australian Taxpayers forking out for not one FTTH network but multiple implmentations that will be written off as a capital investment cost
l) The additional Carbon Tax that will be generated as a result of having to power a substantially much more power hungry copper network and multiple variations of others
m) The additional administrative costs associated in running multiple platforms and systems across the bulk of the country that will necessarily be incurred by all and sundry associated within the ICT industry
n) The loss of international investment revenue and the movement out of Australia by International organisations that see better prospects in other more technologically advanced countries whose communications networks are able to both cope and deal with the future capacity demands that will be placed on them
o) The financial impact to the Rural sector by not having access to modern telecommunications systems and also the additional costs that will necessarily have to be borne by that segment due to the Coaltions policies!~
p) The cost of repairing the existing copper network to enable it to run FTTN successfully,
q) And then the annual maintenance cost of keeping the copper functioning!
r) The write down costs of selling NBN Co's existing infrastructure
s) The write off costs of maintaining the existing HFC Network
t) The write off costs with upgrading the HFC Network
u) The additional costs of the FTTN required to deliver what was Malcolm waffling on about oh that's right 50Mbps which if run across a 90 percent (ASIF) footprint would send the existing FTTN estimates into orbit
v) The cost of cancelling existing NBN contracts
w) The additional unemployment costs that will be incurred by the Government as the mining sector winds down multiplied times 15 eg life of the FTTN network because the ICT Industry has been constrained by a congested national network that simply cannot deliver next generation applications functionality nor deal with the demands required by R and D Projects that target FTTH capabilities.
x) The loss of the asset value to the Australian Taxpayer of Labors FTTH network in say 15 years time. ($75 billion at least)
y) The capital returns Labor's NBN would have provided to Government "Revenues" through its life-cycle. Which would be substantially greater than the very conservative 7 percent return as already reflected in the existing ARPU.
z) Left intentionally blank as a indicative of yet to be determined benefits to be derived from having access to a system that is capable of provisioning "True Broadband" for all Australians and the social impact that has on the community in general!
Further � As you can see � the cost of turnBULL's FRAUDBAND for Fttnnnn fools! � is somewhat rather more expensive than that "provided"??? in his now discredited exercise! entitled a Strategic Review �
Overall Labor has released a pragmatic, fiscally responsible and sensible plan that should be supported.
Those left with substandard broadband in the short term can only blame Turnbull and the Coalition.
And also blame those in the media and their bosses and owners, and associated professional bodies that were reckless and professionally negligent by their silence, austere reporting and journalism on the matter, unquestioning approach, and appeasement of the Federal Coalition NBN/MTM policies, strategies, plans, consultant reviews and the abominable NBN Co Statement of Expectations.
I don't get paid by the media to write what I write (assume Mark does), so am a little freer to speak my mind.
I would expect the Optus only HFC areas, which do not have such condition, will be the first to go.
I've been debating this, (mostly with myself) over here this morning /forum-replies.cfm?t=2500732&p=47
but but Labors plan?! *running out of things to whine about*
They also seem to be slowing down in generally, one of my clients has a mate who did the last installations. got vans all painted up, set up a new business with the promise of all this business, but he says there has been virtually nothing in the last 3 months. he's about ready to sell the vans and wind up the business because there are so few connections being made live.
I think that the nbn was a big issue last time the governments switched, and I think its going to be a fairly big issue this time, there is no getting away from the facts, its cost more, its rolling out slower, its slower than adsl during the times people want to use it.
I agree that this is a sensible approach, but the change will cause disruption and it has the potential to be an election winner/loser for quite a few more elections to come . The bullet needs to be bitten if people really think that Netflix to their new 4k tv is going to work fine on their congested FTTN then they have another think coming.
its a shame that we have to vote people out for their failures and not vote people in on their plans
what seems ironic to me is that I moved recently and had a surprise visit from someone pulling fibre to my house. so labour might get in just as my FTTP that they set in motion before they were voted out just in time to change the plan back around
Bill Shorten is in Western Sydney with Jason Clare and Ed Husic to announce Labor�s #NBN plan, 10.15am
Do you have a source for that? I thought the Libs were still going to have FTTP in greenfields. If this is really happening, it defies words. Unbelievable.
Source: https://data.gov.au/dataset/t
I've done analysis elsewhere showing that FTTP GF started to dry up towards end of 2014. I've verified on the ground in north west sydney on new pillars and nodes being installed in the last year in greenfield areas where FTTP infrastructure already exists.
Overall Labor has released a pragmatic, fiscally responsible and sensible plan that should be supported.
Yep. It's scenario 4. My only complaint is they didn't go for it as soon as the strategic review came out. It's a good approach now though.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
New policy: Labor would dump FTTN for FTTP, keep HFC
The Opposition today released a new National Broadband Network policy for the Federal Election, with Labor committing to dumping the Coalition�s Fibre to the Node plans and supporting Fibre to the Premises instead, but keeping the other HFC cable, satellite and wireless aspects of the current plan.
You can download Labor�s full revised NBN policy document online here in PDF format.
New policy: Labor would dump FTTN for FTTP, keep HFC
So still a mixed bag then.
Still FTTP is much better than FTTN by any sense.
But then again thanks to the LNP creating a black hole by spending/pissing away $11b on shoddy copper network.
So still a mixed bag then
Not able to undo all the damage in one hit. So policy is set to be done in 2 stages..
First, we will scale up the rollout of fibre-to-the-premises and phase out the rollout of fibre-to-the-node. Construction of fibre-to-the-node will cease when the current pipeline of construction work is completed and design and construction of fibre-to-the-premises is scaled back up. This will deliver fibre-to-the-premises to up to two million homes and businesses during the initial build that would otherwise get Malcolm Turnbull�s second-rate copper version. Second, a Shorten Labor Government will commission Infrastructure Australia, with input from relevant experts, to manage the development of a plan that outlines how and when the parts of Australia left with Mr Turnbull�s secondrate NBN should be transitioned to fibre-to-the-premises. This plan will be commissioned in the first term of a Shorten Labor Government. The revised Definitive Agreements with Telstra and the Optus HFC Agreement do not require renegotiation to implement Labor�s plan.
Bill Shorten is in Western Sydney with Jason Clare and Ed Husic to announce Labor�s #NBN plan, 10.15am
I wonder if he will announce who Labors CEO and new Board will be at the same time!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
The Federal Opposition has released its much anticipated election policy on the National Broadband Network today, promising to almost double the number of households with access to Fibre To The Home internet connections.
Probably the best we could hope for.
Opposition Leader Bill Shorten is promising to phase out the Coalition's Fibre To The Node (FTTN) technology beyond the existing pipeline of works, allowing up to 2 million extra households and businesses to connect to Fibre To The Home technology.
Labor says people already on the map to receive the FTTN option will still get it, but those customers without an existing contract will be able to get fibre to their houses and businesses.
Gives me hope that if labor get elected i'll get FTTH (nbn co hasn't even started building where I am, Telstra haven't handed over access to the infrastructure)
Labor would cap its spending in the initial phase at $57 billion. The Coalition's existing policy is costed at $56 billion.
Incoming posts by kingy and zealot calling it a waste/too much money/etc.
So still a mixed bag then.
I would describe it as pragmatic but lacking ambition.
So still a mixed bag then.
Still FTTP is much better than FTTN by any sense.
a multi technology mix itself is not that ideological bad, the problem is where the mtm=anything but fttp that TurnBULL and Morrow adopted.
ultimate goal should still be fttp to every australian home
but in the interim, lets make use of hfc etc.
this announcements just cements my vote for labor.
there is no getting away from the facts, its cost more, its rolling out slower, its slower than adsl during the times people want to use it.
That primarily applies to the Coalition's plan.
I would describe it as pragmatic but lacking ambition
Really?
Labor Government will commission Infrastructure Australia, with input from relevant experts, to manage the development of a plan that outlines how and when the parts of Australia left with Mr Turnbull�s secondrate NBN should be transitioned to fibre-to-the-premises
What's Turnbull's transition policy?
Great policy from Labor today. I would have done it the same, except that I would have preferred they had canned the HFC. It may be too late for that though unfortunately.
I'm really glad they went with this transition instead of adding yet another technology (FTTdp) into the mix. That would seriously have been absolute madness. The MTM made everything too complicated as it was, throwing more types of technology at the problem would have just made things much worse and taken way too long to get up and running.
Ramping FTTP back up is the safest option with the best possible outcomes. It is sad for the many people connected to the FTTN rubbish, but sadly there isn't time to stop that rollout while the FTTP is re-started.
By having already signed the construction contracts
This is a great concern for HFC. By having already signed the construction contracts, and purchase order for CMTS' with Arris, the HFC cost is pretty much already sunk.
You are talking about only the Telstra HFC footprint I assume?
With no construction contracts signed yet for the initially designated Optus HFC only areas, which are now in limbo whilst NBN Co decides on what to do with them.
What's Turnbull's transition policy?
Well the fact is that under Labor 93 plus percent were going to be provisioned with FTTH and instead as the cold light of day dawned on turnbull and co's fraudband plans it turns out that many in Regional Australia who thought they were going to be switched to FTTN actually arn't even getting that!
Instead the LNP are consigning them to Satellite and Wireless services!
Another point that Labor should sink the boot in on for mine!
Not able to undo all the damage in one hit. So policy is set to be done in 2 stages..
Be interesting how it will pans out.
If both parties supported FTTH/P in the first place none of this problems would of happened.
Oh well
Interesting times ahead and hopefully for the damn better.
:0>
Hi Mark just one question here, I live in Whyalla South Australia which according to the roll out schedule was to start "Build Preparation" on the 15th of February of this year. But according to the roll out map there is nothing showing for Whyalla. Plus I have not seen any physical activity here in Whyalla of NBNCo personal doing anything.
Under Labor in your opinion are we (Whyalla) going to get FTTP as I shouldn't think that any contracts would have been drawn up for our city yet.
As an example Port Broughton which was also scheduled for "Build Preparation" in March of this year is actually showing "Build Commenced" for FTTN according to the roll out map so contracts would have been acted upon for Port Broughton. Where as Whyalla there is nothing showing on the maps.
Instead the LNP are consigning them to Satellite and Wireless services!
LOL a fate worse than death...
Another point that Labor should sink the boot in
A size 10 up Turnbull's backside for this mess is well over due.
The key is the need to let existing contracts run their course so that the rollout is not delayed further.
Hi Mark just one question here, I live in Whyalla South Australia which according to the roll out schedule was to start "Build Preparation" on the 15th of February of this year. But according to the roll out map there is nothing showing for Whyalla. Plus I have not seen any physical activity here in Whyalla of NBNCo personal doing anything.
Under Labor in your opinion are we (Whyalla) going to get FTTP as I shouldn't think that any contracts would have been drawn up for our city yet.
As an example Port Broughton which was also scheduled for "Build Preparation" in March of this year is actually showing "Build Commenced" for FTTN according to the roll out map so contracts would have been acted upon for Port Broughton. Where as Whyalla there is nothing showing on the maps.
Labor? (Didn't know they had reddit) just resonded to someones post with this
OP Post
OP � "Do it right, Do it once, Do it with fibre" � The best saying of them all by Tony Windsor. Such a shame that Liberals are such oblivious to such sayings and would rather see us down a hole then a leading country in the Technology sector.
Labor, Do it once and right for all of Australia, please for the love of Fibre and Australia's future please don't let this get screwed up. We only have 1 shot to fix things and we need to do what we can to make sure Australia is set for for Future generations to come. Let this Policy be the start of something good.
ALP Response on Reddit (Wasn't aware they even had their own Reddit account) -
Due to the mess Malcolm Turnbull has made of this critical infrastructure project, our original plan for the NBN can no longer be achieved in one stage.
The Liberals have sunk $15 billion into the NBN in the last three years, and much of the initial build is under contract. A Shorten Labor Government will deal with Malcolm Turnbull�s mess in two ways.
First, we will scale up the rollout of fibre-to-the-premises and phase out the rollout of fibre-to-the-node. Construction of fibre-to-the-node will cease when the current pipeline of construction work is completed and design and construction of fibre-to-the-premises is scaled back up. This will deliver fibre-to-the-premises to up to two million homes and businesses during the initial build that would otherwise get Malcolm Turnbull�s second-rate copper version.
Second, a Shorten Labor Government will commission Infrastructure Australia, with input from relevant experts, to manage the development of a plan that outlines how and when the parts of Australia left with Mr Turnbull�s second-rate NBN should be transitioned to fibre-to-the-premises. This plan will be commissioned in the first term of a Shorten Labor Government. The revised Definitive Agreements with Telstra and the Optus HFC Agreement do not require renegotiation to implement Labor�s plan.
A Shorten Labor Government will complete the initial rollout of the NBN by 30 June 2022 � the same time the Liberals� second-rate NBN is likely to be complete.
You can read more about our plan here: http://www.100positivepolicie
Thought I'd share what the ALP Reddit account replied to someone, everyone Needs to see it so we know what's going on.
Oh my, forgot to put my Source in � https://www.reddit.com/r/aust
They also said � That they are keen to talk to people and are wanting to see how much the Reddit community cares about the NBN, if anyone has a Reddit account and wants to talk to them then by all means go for it.
Whyalla South Australia
Hi SkyKing20, I don't follow the rollout maps closely so you're only option is to look at the information from NBN Co or Ken Tsang. The key from Labor's announcement is that all existing FTTN contracts would be allowed to be completed if there is no straightforward way to convert to FTTP and keep the rollout in progress.
Really?
Yep, it doesn't have anything like the ambition of the original NBN. I understand why, but I was hoping for something stronger.
What's Turnbull's transition policy?
The only transition he's interested in is from rich to richer.
It's a good approach now though.
Its the 'least worse' approach now.
Sorry to keep correcting you ;)
Under Labor in your opinion are we (Whyalla) going to get FTTP as I shouldn't think that any contracts would have been drawn up for our city yet
Your question with respect to Whyalla has broader implications nationally and here should Labor take Government then they should imo undertake a review of the contracts that Bill Morrow and the LNP have effectively committed NBN tm too.
A review of what the state of the copper actually is in, together with how its performing, number of faults, has it been remediated or does it require extensive remediation etc
Should determine IF an existing copper contract proceeds at all.
After all its not in Labor's interest to be spending $1600 per premise passed on FTTN when possibly they can be delivering FTTH at $1450 per premise passed using more innovative and recent FTTH deployment techniques!
I guess this rules out Ziggy & Morrow for NBN's future.
Federal Labor NBN policy live event on ABC TV next
This here, HFC is expensive to run, I do fully expect that IA's recommendation will be to replace it at the earliest possible point, however, the Foxtel spectrum continuity deed is going to be a large part of that decision. The network must be maintained for the purpose of delivering Foxtel until the end of the deal. So I would expect the Optus only HFC areas, which do not have such condition, will be the first to go.
Just switch it to fibre at the same time (like opticom). As long as Foxtel gets their product delivered, they'll be happy � especially if its delivered by fibre, because that will guarantee their relevance for decades to come.
The only transition he's interested in is from rich to richer.
Well Malcolm has done a great job of transitioning Australia's ICT and communications industry thus far :-( .. with the reality of his now disastrous MTM policy clearly depicted here.
https://deknarf.files.wordpr
And to think that under Labor we would have been upgrading Labor's FTTH to the 10Gbps standard in 2016 as provided by the ex CTO Gary Mclaren � and here we are 3 years later with Malcolm's unguaranteed UPTO Peak Speed 25Mbps still struggling to rollout under his tenureship.
I think Labor made a mistake releasing the policy today in light of the events of orlando
the news headlines and tlakback radio etc will be dominated by the orlando shootings.
should of saved it for couple of days to maximise coverage.
*to anyone offended at my suggestions: i don't care
Yep, it doesn't have anything like the ambition of the original NBN. I understand why, but I was hoping for something stronger.
Without adding significant delays and costs to the project, I don't what else they could have done?
I think Labor made a mistake releasing the policy today in light of the events of orlando
Think of it this way.
More ppl are probably watching TV and on news sites on the internet to catch up with info on the Orlando shooting. Whilst they're watching they'll see the Labor NBN policy news.
Think of it this way
At least it's in sync with scenario 4 of the strategic review.
That should add some clout.
I think Labor made a mistake releasing the policy today in light of the events of orlando
Fair call however Pre Polls start on Tuesday and this segment of the market has to have the information.
No options here for either party on this not that the LNP have anything to crow about � given the devastated telecommunications landscape they are responsible for with their never ending litany of broken promises which of course is reflected in reality with turnbulls massive budget blowouts (now nearly double what he promised) with no doubt more mess to come, when the carpet finally gets lifted on what's actually been going on with the mess � that turnbull's alternative now is!
Looking at the Labor policy
https://cdn.australianlabor.
with a quick search of HFC it seems like areas like mine that are supposed to get HFC in the next 12 months are probably already under contract and will continue onto HFC. I assume that will mean any change to FTTP is well off into the future after the FTTN debacle is repaired or are they likely to go back and replace the FTTN / HFC at the same time ?
If Labor get in of course. Which is a big if I suspect.
should of saved it for couple of days to maximise coverage
I assume it is due to postal votes starting. They're expected to be much higher this year due to school holidays, winter etc
"...A Shorten Labor Government will rollout Fibre-to-the-Premises to up to two million additional Australian homes and businesses..." (http://www.jasonclare.com.au
2 million premises/business � which ones. The remaining ones (I am guessing the HFC areas if there's 3 million in that)- what will they get? Please don't get me wrong, I am fully supportive of anything that gets us closer to the original Quigley vision (or better) however some analysis is required before we all start assuming the old plan is back.
It's on ABC TV right now. live Shorten and Clare. Shorten opening with the Orlando terror attack. Most appropriate.
talk now on abc24 about nbn and terror attacks by shorten.
Its the 'least worse' approach now.
I think it's politically good. A small target before the election with scope to change with the IA review after.
Sorry to keep correcting you ;)
I've been wrong too many times to worry about being corrected :)
with a quick search of HFC it seems like areas like mine that are supposed to get HFC in the next 12 months are probably already under contract and will continue onto HFC.
Not quite �
And here the HFC network wasn't fully built nor delivered within the currently defined footprint area's.
Hence the LNP's reticence on discussing what is known as the HFC infill area's which provides that whilst you might be in a HFC footprint the reality is that they would deliver FTTN into these "infill area's" instead of building out new HFC!
A point that Malcolm doesn't want to talk about similar to delivering Satellite and Wireless instead of FTTN to many in Regional Australia!
Whilst here Labor would one suspects deliver FTTH into these HFC infill area's as obviously the contracts for slower more expensive and less affordable FTTN wouldn't have been signed off due unsurprisingly to the delays the LNP are responsible for!
Fortuitous for those in the HFC infill area's though assuming Labor win I might add!
some analysis is required before we all start assuming the old plan is back.
The old plan is not back. It can't come back, at least not in its entirety. All they can do is minimise the damage being further done and gradually tank the the fttn and ramp up the ftth, with a view to overbuilding the HFC and fttn after rollout completed.
I dont know what else they could do without delaying the project substantially..
Without adding significant delays and costs to the project, I don't what else they could have done?
I'm not sure, but I can't shake the feeling that the policy is crafted above all else to present a small target, and to avoid picking a fight with Telstra and News Corp.
Choosing to minimise delays and costs is pragmatic, doing it the right way for the long term interests of the country is ambitious... the original NBN leant much more towards the latter than the former.
The key from Labor's announcement is that all existing FTTN contracts would be allowed to be completed
So, does anyone know when the FTTN contracts are due to be completed?
Using those dates and the current NBNCo rollout plan we can figure out where we would get FTTP and where we be stuck with FTTN.
I'm not sure, but I can't shake the feeling that the policy is crafted above all else to present a small target, and to avoid picking a fight with Telstra and News Corp.
Smart move
Without adding significant delays and costs to the project, I don't what else they could have done?
Add significant costs! This is an infrastructure project, where the benefits flow back to the economy at large. Who cares if they turn this into a loss making business? If it was profitable a private company would have already built it! The goal shouldn't be for the network itself to turn a profit, the goal should be what benefits the country.
Labor's new policy is tepid bullshit, aimed at merely being less bad than the Liberals. It's a "vote for us, we may be a turd sandwich, but their turd sandwich has dog turds in it!" They showed no real commitment to building the NBN the first time in office, despite perfect conditions for doing so � in a downturn you can hire people to build infrastructure as a stimulus measure. If they'd done that they could have got enough of the NBN built the LNP couldn't have rolled it back so easily.
Again they're showing no real commitment now. Of course they aren't � it's not in their interests the NBN ever gets built. They know the public likes the NBN, they know the public likes their policy more than the LNP's, so it's in their interests to string out the building of the NBN for as long as possible to milk it for all it's politically worth. So here we are where I maybe see cable in 6 years (unless their self imposed money limit gets hit first) and then wait for some report that maybe gets followed and maybe gets a real broadband connection to my house sometime in the coming decades.
Neither party takes the NBN seriously. Vote third party, flap the majors.
Smart move
To be elected, sure, but I'd much prefer a bold vision for the future and a plan to get there.
Add significant costs! This is an infrastructure project, where the benefits flow back to the economy
I think they already know this. But they are in govt yet. They need win over the voters with a balanced approach. Once they are back in power, they may be able to tweak their policy with the help of infrastructure Australia
I can't shake the feeling that the policy is crafted above all else to present a small target, and to avoid picking a fight with Telstra and News Corp.
Yep.. a wise move..
If Labor get in of course. Which is a big if I suspect.
Very valid point sir, unfortunately.
Sportingbet as of 13/6/2016:
ALP 4.15
Coalition 1.2
odds against ALP has risen in last week.
A small target before the election with scope to change with the IA review after.
There is this constraint to consider (p.20).
Labor will cap the total funding cost of the initial NBN rollout at $57 billion. This cap will have priority over the number of additional homes and businesses to get fibre-to-the-premises in the initial rollout. NBN Co�s independent board will monitor and ensure compliance with this funding cap on an annual basis as part of its corporate planning processes.
If management can't get the rollout costs down the number of FttP premises could be lower.
It is difficult to see how current management (and board?) could continue under a Labor government given their inability to reduce FttP costs during their time in charge.
supposedly someone in the NBN press conference asked if FTTN was better then FTTP
If management can't get the rollout costs down the number of FttP premises could be lower.
Yes it could. But then again they could raise the funding cap.
It is difficult to see how current management (and board?) could continue under a Labor government given their inability to reduce FttP costs during their time in charge.
They have failed big time already. They have obstructed the Senate. Failed to be transparent and showed intense hated for fttp.
They are not fit to run nbnco.
It's on ABC TV right now. live Shorten and Clare.
That was pretty impressive imo. My opinion of Clare has gone up a bit.
ABC 24 just ended the live cross because Malcolm Turnbull is now speaking live from Townsville.
Interrupting a labor policy announcement. Hopefully they'll put the rest of the Q&A on the Labor NBN policy shortly.
My opinion of Clare has gone up a bit.
In my opinion, if Clare was leader of the opposition, with his communications skills and sincerity, the Federal election result would likely be all over now.
Turnbull questioned on the NBN live on ABC 24 TV now.
The shadow in the background of Malcolm's live cross right now, is working overtime at trying to dis Labor and big up his under and non-achievements.
That was pretty impressive imo. My opinion of Clare has gone up a bit.
He is very knowledgeable and is always on message.
I think he would make an excellent pm one day.
If management can't get the rollout costs down the number of FttP premises could be lower.
Yep. It does say in the initial roll out though. I still think there is scope for IA to say it is more cost-effective to increase that cap than to roll out more FTTN initially and replace it later. I suspect it's political.
It is difficult to see how current management (and board?) could continue under a Labor government given their inability to reduce FttP costs during their time in charge.
I would think Ziggy's gone for certain but other than that I don't think there will be a mass cull. They've been hamstrung in their performance by having to toe the government line. I think Labor will take time to assess their capabilities rather than clean them all out immediately.
Labor will cap the total funding cost of the initial NBN rollout at $57 billion.
This is the most hilarious part of the statement. If the ALP are seen to actually be serious, they would not come out with promises like this.
What will they do when they spend their $57 billion and the project is only 2/3rds complete? Tell the suppliers and contractors that there isn't any more cash left, and they have to finish the project, but won't get paid?
As much as i want a fully fibre network, silly things like this which are unlikely to be costed fully are the fundamental flaws which the ALP came out with last time which had the effect that the NBN was then slashed massively by the LNP.
The shadow in the background of Malcolm's live cross right now, is working overtime at trying to dis Labor and big up his under and non-achievements.
Turnbulls dug his own grave with the mess he's made of the NBN and has effectively sabotaged NBN's revenue's for years to come with his antiquated noodle network to nowhere that he signed off on and is responsible for.
There is simply no getting around the fact that as cloud-based networking, the Internet of Things (IoT) continue their market penetration and use � the core national network simply has to provide more and more bandwidth!
And the fact here is that FRAUDBAND simply can't deliver that.
Unlike a FTTH network in which you can upgrade GPON to 10Gbps XG-PON or as they are doing over in Portugal 80Gbps NG-PON2 on which they can deliver a concurrent 1Gbps/10Gbps Residential service, and a 10Gbps/40Gbps SME or Enterprise service across the same piece of fibre!
*Note I believe the next iteration provides for a 160Gbps standard which puts into perspective just how FTTNnnnn piss poor turnbull's unguaranteed UPTO Peak Speed 25Mbps FRAUDBAND is!
I would think Ziggy's gone for certain but other than that I don't think there will be a mass cull.
Maybe Morrow will end up running Foxtel, which could be useful with his fixed line and mobile expertise, with News Corp likely eyeing off a combined TPG/Vodafone in the longer term to take on Telstra and Optus with a quadruple play.
What will they do when they spend their $57 billion and the project is only 2/3rds complete?
Increase the cap.
Skinny Fibre and Fttdp would decrease costs.
The ALP could also point to project fox and the nz examples for decreased costs.
The document is good as it lays out why MTM is such a disgrace.
As much as i want a fully fibre network, silly things like this which are unlikely to be costed fully are the fundamental flaws which the ALP came out with last time which had the effect that the NBN was then slashed massively by the LNP.
Labors FTTH was previously fully costed a point made here refuting the lies provided to you by turnbull entirely!
The former CEO of Australia's NBN Co, the entity responsible for building and operating Australia's national broadband network (NBN), Mike Quigley, has hit back at two years of being blamed by two prime ministers for the troubles that beset the project's multi-technology mix model (MTM) mandated in 2013.
In particular, Quigley says it's no longer reasonable to blame either costs nor the 2020 completion date for the fibre-plus-copper-plus-cable on either the former fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP) plan or the previous management team.
Of cost blowouts, Quigley told the Australian Broadcasting Corporation's Background Briefing programme, it's clear that the MTM mandate introduced by former communications minister (now Prime Minister) Malcolm Turnbull is behind the worsening cost position of the network (which, instead of the sub-AU$30 billion price tag promised before the 2013 election are now forecast to fall between $46 billion and $56 billion).
What you can demonstrate on the NBN Co's own numbers � you can absolutely prove that the $15 billion has nothing to do with the fibre-to-the-premise (FTTP), or the fixed wireless, or the satellite � the original technologies.
http://www.theregister.co.uk
Those are the fact's plain and simple as provided by one of the luminaries of the telecommunication industry aka Mike Quigley rather than by Malcolm Turnbull who didn't bother correcting Tony Abbott when he was introduced misleadingly as the so called "Father of Australia's Internet" which today 3 years after Malcolm took control � you can say, instead � is the bloke who buggered Australia's internet as provided here!
Australia is now ranked 60th globally when it comes to average broadband speeds. This places the nation behind a number of other competing countries in the Asia-Pacific region � not only behind fibre-rich countries such as South Korea, Hong Kong and Japan, but also behind financial and trading hub Singapore, as well as Taiwan, Thailand and New Zealand.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
What will they do when they spend their $57 billion and the project is only 2/3rds5ths complete?
Fixed that for you.
What Phg says, increase the cap and issue more bonds to increase the IRR by policy changes making the company attractive for private capital funding. Controlled moved to close to 50/50 capital funding in due time.
That was pretty impressive imo. My opinion of Clare has gone up a bit.
Interestingly, Shorten "shortened" his slogan
Do it right
Do it onceDo it with fibre
The backpedal stuck out like dog's balls.
Edit>> maybe he just forgot the last bit .....
Dick of an ABC 24 news reporter, in summarising the Federal Labor NBN policy release, just said that Federal Labor will be decreasing the NBN reach to 39% of premises. Although if you define FTTP as only the true NBN and ignore every other technology that will be part of the labor MTM, he's got a point.
None the less an uninformed watcher could come away thinking that labor will be spending $57B on only have 39% of premise on the NBN compared to 100% for the Federal Coalition and the previous labor plan (93-100%).
Whilst here Labor would one suspects deliver FTTH into these HFC infill area's as obviously the contracts for slower more expensive and less affordable FTTN wouldn't have been signed off due unsurprisingly to the delays the LNP are responsible for!
I sure hope so as I'm in one of the infill areas. Kind of glad now that NBN has been so slow at rolling out, might have a chance of getting fibre now if they win the election.
Interestingly, Shorten "shortened" his slogan
Do it right
Do it onceDo it with fibre
Labor's policy hasn't been shortened at all instead the reality is the existing contracts put in situ by turnbull and co are a commercial reality today!
If you want to blame anyone for the fact that copper will be part of the network then that rightfully belongs and should be attributed to those who voted the LNP in at the last election and continue to support them!
Further Labor have announced a full examination by "Infastructure Australia" with respect to examining its options going forward and here the "business case" for replacing turnbulls obsolete copper � "sooner" rather than later will no doubt be examined in full.
A point in which precedence provides a clear direction � with New Zealand being a clear example of a country where having pissed their taxpayers hard earned down the gurgler on obsolete FTTN copper then undertook a similar review and are in the process of replacing their copper with FTTH.
AT and T similarly also are now in the same situation as are other countries and Telco's who are also migrating from copper to FTTH.
However to do this you must have a "commercially accepted" business case!
A point that I might add that turnbull and co together with the rest of the LNP have simply failed to deliver 3 years after spruiking their drivel and diatribe to an unsuspecting Australian public and one now Labor must remodel and put back into the black given the train wreck Malcolm has made of things!
Cheers
Interesting. The coalition has been savaged for years over their MTM approach, and now Jason Clare and Labor announce their slightly modified MTM approach, and they are applauded? What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete, and the maintenance costs making it uneconomical compared to the FTTP? What happened to the supposed unlimited social and economic benefits of FTTP which meant roll out cost didn't matter, that Australia couldn't afford NOT to have fiber? What happened to the "do it right, do it fiber blah blah" mantra? Now suddenly the costs matter, suddenly FTTN and HFC is fit for purpose, and suddenly Labor sell out on their vision and are prepared to burden millions of Australians with second rate, century copper and rubbish HFC just to pinch a few pennies.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC .
If Labor win the election copper scrap yards are going to boom..
That's a lot of left over copper!
What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete
You didn't read the policy before blurting did you..?
Go back and read it..
A point in which precedence provides a clear direction � with New Zealand being a clear example of a country where having pissed their taxpayers hard earned down the gurgler on obsolete FTTN copper then undertook a similar review and are in the process of replacing their copper with FTTH.
Yup, its pretty telling when an ex ceo of BT said it was a big mistake with FTTN as well.
Happens when governments follow crappy failures and arrogant enough to think its going to work here.
If Labor win the election copper scrap yards are going to boom..
That's a lot of left over copper!
Yup funny how its worth more as scrap than actually being used.
The coalition has been savaged for years over their MTM approach
For many very good reasons.
Labor announce their slightly modified MTM approach
It's not a slight modification of the Coalition's failed approach.
What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete, and the maintenance costs making it uneconomical compared to the FTTP?
That is all still true. Sadly, the luddites got elected and have proceeded to infect the project � it'll take a long time to cut out all the rot.
suddenly FTTN and HFC is fit for purpose
What part of the policy gave you the impression that FTTN is in any way fit for purpose? As for HFC, the luddites and their dodgy contracts have locked it in so short of giving Telstra yet another massive bucket of cash the only option is to spend massive amounts of money on bringing it up to scratch.
double
You didn't read the policy before blurting did you..
Go back and read it..
One of a couple of blow in posters here this morning, that probably does not need to read the policy, as they seem to have their own alternative script to read from.
Can't wait for some of the regular MTM supporters to surface later today.
As for HFC, the luddites and their dodgy contracts have locked it in so short of giving Telstra yet another massive bucket of cash the only option is to spend massive amounts of money on bringing it up to scratch.
Yup lots of scars as well.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC
Your confused here FTTN that exists in the National Network isn't Labor's at all � it belongs entirely to turnbull and co and those who voted for them!
Further the contracts signed for HFC simply can't be written off either but hey I'm happy for you to articulate how that could be done noting:-
Ripping it all out straight away � before building the business case to replace the $15 billion that turnbull and co have signed off on isn't going to be easy and Infrastructure Australia will have to articulate just how this will be done.
One thing not mentioned yet is "upgrading" the FTTH network to NG-PON2 which of course would allow the provisioning of SME and Enterprise services in addition to existing residential services which would arrest the disastrous revenue position of NBN Co going forward � the profits of which could be ploughed back into replacing the copper and HFC sooner rather than later thereby further increasing revenues and of course adding to the IRR (internal rate of return) for NBN's new business case given the LNP have failed entirely to deliver one in the last 3 years
Interesting. The coalition has been savaged for years over their MTM approach, and now Jason Clare and Labor announce their slightly modified MTM approach, and they are applauded?
not sure why im bothering to reply to a troll but here is a few counter points
idelogically all broadband policies have been some form of a mtm.
even orignal modle was 93% fibre+7%other
however coalition took mtm= anything but fibre approach
ihave maintained thta a HFC+ftth rollout is ideal and then use the money generated from that to slowly upgrade the rest of the hfc.
What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete, and the maintenance costs making it uneconomical compared to the FTTP?
they are obsolete, and will be removed, no point throwing the 15bn down the drain, use it for now and replace it slowly, also
the more copper we remove the more the costs come down, so by removing 2 million homes form copper that is reducing the maintenace cost, no?
What happened to the supposed unlimited social and economic benefits of FTTP which meant roll out cost didn't matter, that Australia couldn't afford NOT to have fiber?
well we are getting there, even turdbull has said fibre is the end game, differenc being he want to maximise profits for his mates now aka Telestra, foxtel, nescorp etc., and then try milk us for more money down the line to get fibre when we despratley need it.. thus having to shell out twice.
also in the current political climate the australian wil lhave a field day if labout propsed going to a full fibre roll out, give smore ammo to peopl liek yourself.
this policy is a step in the right direction to the fibr efuture we need, your opinions dont relaly matter its not like you are anything but a rusted on coalition voter
i myself am a swinging left leaning guy, i usually vote indepent, however based pretty much on htis issue ill be voting labor, and that what really upsets trolls like you.
they are applauded?
Yes, they are, but not because it is a slightly modified MTM-policy. It makes cost-economical sense.
What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete
What do you wish that Labor does with it, now NBN Co has bought it. Throw away the money invested in it? Remains obsolete but cost-economical one better attempts to make some use out of it now it has been bought.
Now suddenly the costs matter
Of course it does. If the current government was capable of implementing a inferior and outdated technology for the same price as FTTP, the money is spend. You can't spend money twice. Not even when you are the government.
suddenly FTTN and HFC is fit for purpose
No, it is not fit for purpose, but you cannot throw away every new government period, that what the previous government has done policy wise. Especially not with large infrastructural projects like the NBN. So policy wise it makes absolute sense. Use what is bought and is irreversible cost-economical and do it right with fibre, when work is not started or assets are not bought.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber
FTTP is not a ideology, it is a technology. This proofs your ill thinking.
they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC .
Makes perfect sense cost-economical, limit your losses because of bad decisions in the past and set a path to do it proper immediately when you get into government without trashing the place like the LNP government did under the instructions of our previous PM: "destroy the NBN".
New policy: Labor would dump FTTN for FTTP, keep HFC
Keeping HFC, even the optus areas with only cable tv support? thats insanity.
A lot of Sydney will be on HFC. No thanks. I'll stay on ADSL2+ then move to a 10/10 SHDSL connection.
Looks like they are just focusing on FTTN replacement. HFC is just as bad, useless and more prone to congestion in the current and future state. A single bus network linking many properties is not the way to go.
Let�s see how Turnbull and Fifield try to spin their way out of this one over the next 3 weeks, on a pitch perfect for more fibre bouncers.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
the perfect NBN policy to deal with the NBN project as it stands today.
Labor�s policy will fix the FTTN problem, once and for all; stopping further investment in Telstra�s doomed copper network.
It will pragmatically continue with the rollout and upgrade of the HFC cable networks, which will quickly deliver enhanced broadband to up to a third of Australians, avoiding a billion-dollar contract default with Telstra and Optus along the way.
And above all, it offers a long-term path to a near-universal FTTP rollout for Australia
It will do all this, while remaining conscious of financial and timing issues around the NBN.
Just heard Malcolm Turnbull on the ABC's World Today dismissing the Labor plan.
He claimed that the NBN has connected more premises in the past month (?) than Labor had in all their time. Anyone know if this is true ?
a swinging left leaning guy, i usually vote indepent, however based pretty much on htis issue ill be voting labor, and that what really upsets trolls like you.
Same here. Looks like Labor will get my 1st preference in the lower house.
The upper house is a completely different ball game.
Skinny Fibre and Fttdp would decrease costs.
The ALP could also point to project fox and the nz examples for decreased costs.
Labor are not going to bother as they know project fox was a cherry picked rollout that was done in Melton, 50-60KM from the Melb CBD.
Labor will retain the status quo of MTM for the next few years
The increase of the FTTH for Labor will take a lot of time to implement if ever since election cycles come around so quick and Labor will bank on the electorate forgetting about this in a few years time.
Today was about a slight differentiation to the MTM plan with Labor proposing to make slight variations closer to the end of the decade .
New policy: Labor would dump FTTN for FTTP, keep HFC
They can not immediately dump FTTN, as said it will take a very long time to implement FTTP.
Whatever happened to Operation Clust**** making HFC bad according to conroy?
And above all, it offers a long-term path to a near-universal FTTP rollout for Australia
It will do all this, while remaining conscious of financial and timing issues around the NBN
Well said..
Interesting. The coalition has been savaged for years over their MTM approach, and now Jason Clare and Labor announce their slightly modified MTM approach, and they are applauded? What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete, and the maintenance costs making it uneconomical compared to the FTTP? What happened to the supposed unlimited social and economic benefits of FTTP which meant roll out cost didn't matter, that Australia couldn't afford NOT to have fiber? What happened to the "do it right, do it fiber blah blah" mantra? Now suddenly the costs matter, suddenly FTTN and HFC is fit for purpose, and suddenly Labor sell out on their vision and are prepared to burden millions of Australians with second rate, century copper and rubbish HFC just to pinch a few pennies.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC .
I don't know where you got that opinion from, but it is wrong. Labor isn't relying on FTTN, or HFC. The HFC networks have essentially been "paid for" and thus need to be used, or NBN Co will be wasting money. That isn't an acceptable proposition, and no one should be suggesting it is. As for the FTTN part, the current and near-future builds can't be stopped or changed. Doing so would waste money as well, and anger the contractors who would have purchased the components required for FTTN. Leaving that part of FTTN in place makes good sense. As for the rest of the build, it will be FTTP, fixed wireless, or satellite.
Depending on how the "pending" build for my area is handled (currently slated for FTTN, H2 2017), if it stays FTTN, I'll be less than impressed, but if it can be changed to FTTP, I'll be a happy chappy...
Anyone know if this is true ?
Yes, that is true, but he forgets to tell his fellow Australians is, that the largest amount of active services is actually on FTTP, fixed-wireless and Satellite which are all technologies in the technology mix of Labor's NBNv1.
A small portion is on FTTN, a even smaller portion on FTTB and none of HFC.
In other words Malcolm, the LNP and NBN Co take the achievements of others and make it their own. Bit like plagiarism ...
Just heard Malcolm Turnbull on the ABC's World Today dismissing the Labor plan.
He claimed that the NBN has connected more premises in the past month (?) than Labor had in all their time. Anyone know if this is true ?
You need to do more research. Malcolm, Mitch Fifield, Bill Morrows all lie through their teeth.
There is around 1 million premises connected. 800k plus connections are FTTP connections due to labors work. 100-200k are satelite and fixed wireless which is also due to labors work.
only around 50k connections are FTTN (of which some of them are FTTB connections.
Liberals like to steal other peoples credit and claim it as their own. Do you really want to trust these luddites running Australia?
The backpedal stuck out like dog's balls.
Well what do you expect? their hands are tied to a degree, they can't just scrap everything the LNP put in place and start fresh, that'd be political suicide aswell as being a terrible idea. extra cost, extra time, no one would accept it and it'd destroy any chance the ALP have of getting in.
This is the best they could propose, it's a huge step in the right direction while not shooting themselves in the foot.
At least in my area, nothing has even started yet.
I might still stand a chance of getting FTTP after all.
Well said..
Renai covered well, why it is a good policy.
At least in my area, northing has even started yet.
I might still stand a chance of getting FTTP after all.
Likewise
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor are not going to bother as they know project fox was a cherry picked rollout that was done in Melton, 50-60KM from the Melb CBD.
Completely wrong...Project Fox was "cherry-picked" as the most representative rollout possible.
Labor will retain the status quo of MTM for the next few years
Or put another way, Labor will be stuck with the remains of the LNP stuff-up for the next few years (you can only clean this up so fast). But the immediate deployment change to FTTP, and the immediate phase out of FTTN as well as the study to replace the rest of the MTM is of course more in line with a responsible government decision
slightly modified MTM approach, and they are applauded?
Firstly, go read the policy.
Secondly, for how long on this very forum have fibre-supporters been saying it's too late to switch back to a full FTTP rollout? that ship sailed a long time ago, the best thing either party could do is something like this, roll out as much fibre as they can, get revenue from that going and then go from there.
Obviously they haven't announced where they'll go from there (it's still 8+ years away and pending an election).
What did you expect? trot out their 93% FTTP rollout again? would've been political suicide and just not feasible.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
They can not immediately dump FTTN,
Who said they were? You didnt read their Policy either.. !
Labor will be stuck with the remains of the LNP stuff-up for the next few years
They will be confronted with the remains for a lot longer than a few years. Imagine the ICT systems, imagine to maintain it, imagine to attempt to keep it up to a reasonable standard.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Whatever happened to Operation Clust**** making HFC bad according to conroy?
The Federal Government and NBN Co left Federal Labor with no choice but to get to like Clusterflaps or to eventually having to commit X$B extra to the flaps to ensure that it meets minimum requirements during peak periods, or start to overbuild or upgrade it to a better, more reliable and cost effective to maintain and upscale more fibrous solution.
What happened to HFC and FTTN being obsolete
They are, but Malcolm has already spent the money. They will be converted to FTTP as soon as is financially possible, and a study will be immediately commissioned to determine when and how to do that.
I will say that this policy is the very best that we could expect. Well done Clare!
In other words Malcolm, the LNP and NBN Co take the achievements of others and make it their own. Bit like plagiarism ...
To put that into perspective the reality the Australian public need to understand that Mike Quigley together with his team under the previous Labor Government were responsible for the following!
1. Built from scratch a company of close to 3000 people with all of the processes and systems needed to function as a wholesale telecommunications company.
2. Successfully launched an Interim Satellite service, which was more popular than had been anticipated.
3. Designed and contracted a Long Term Satellite solution that was on schedule and on budget for services beginning in mid 2015.
4. Designed and was deploying a 4G, Fixed Wireless network.
5. Designed and was deploying a Transit Network to support all access technologies.
This project was on budget and on schedule for completion by 2015.
6. Designed, developed and deployed fully functioning OSS/BSS systems that had been proven to function at scale.
7. Designed and established a National Test Facility and a Network Operations Centre.
8. Successfully designed, developed and launched a suite of Products covered by a Wholesale Broadband Agreement which were signed by many Retail Service Providers.
9. Developed a 27-year Special Access Undertaking, which was subsequently accepted by the ACCC. This was unprecedented.
10.Built a Greenfields fibre capability that could complete more than 30 new developments a week, anywhere in the country.
11.Built a Customer Connect capability that had connected more than 100k end users and which was rapidly growing the ability to deal with the exceptionally high take-up rates that were being experienced.
12.While the construction phase of the Brownfields fibre rollout experienced difficulties these problems were being overcome while preserving the integrity of NBN Co�s financial plan.
It should be noted that any one of the projects NBN Co was undertaking; Satellite, Fixed Wireless, Brownfields, Greenfields, the Transit Network, a major OSS/BSS development, a new wholesale product and pricing structure plus a 27-year SAU, would be a major challenge for even a mature Telco.
NBN Co was doing it all simultaneously while building a company from a standing start.
Source: Mike Quigley
//
So given that Malcolm took over with only the "volume rollout" component of the network to deal with -
The fact is that FRAUDBAND under turnbull and co is well behind � what would have been rolled out in terms of premises passed under Labor given hat Mike Quigley had finally nailed the contractors down to delivering on what they were contracted to provide and that "Telstra" had finally got its act together with Pit remediation coupled with the results as provided in Project Fox eg 60 percent reduction in deployment time and 50 percent reduction in costs � together with other now available solutions would seen the company well on the way to achieving its objectives!
//
And yet now under turnbull and Co we have the CEO Bill Morrow stating that the NBN Rollout is on track!
So lets look at the numbers here on this to get a comparison of just how truthful Bill's statement actually is, based on the original milestones set down for the project � and here I will refer to
a) NBN tm Corporate Plan 2016 � which provides and "dont' laugh please"
FY15, operational performance highlights include: total premises RFS (excluding satellite): 1,165k
*Note with around 48,000 on the ISS as provided by Labor it makes around 1.2 million!
So 1.2 million according to Bill Morrow is on target with no delays?? -
//
Compared with
b) Mike Quigley's and Labors 2012-2015 Corporate Plan which provided for and I quote!
9.5 Deployment Profile
The 2012-15 Corporate Plan incorporates the revised deployment forecasts and the 6 month extension to June 2021. It forecasts that 13 million premises will be passed or covered by NBN Co by the end of FY2021 (100% of premises across all networks).
By the end of FY2015, NBN Co forecasts passing or covering 3.7 million premises, of which 2.9 million will be with Fibre.
http://www.nbnco.com.au/asse
Unsurprisingly Malcolm continues to manufacture nonsensical unsubstantiated fabrications to somehow support the train wreck that he's now responsible for and present somehow that he's doing better than what Labor would have provided!
When the reality is that his FRAUDBAND network has seen Australia drop from 30th under Labor where it was continuing to rise again to now 60th and continuing to drop as others go the Fibre route and his numbers simply don't add up except in terms of budget blowouts, delays, and the growing litany of broken promises which do.
I will say that this policy is the very best that we could expect. Well done Clare!
Indeed, and in the same ballpark as for lnp for cost and timeframe.
Why are the trolls against this?
I'd like some clarification, (from Labour as anything else is just opinion at this stage,) of the existing build pipeline of works and changeover to FTTP. I live in 5CMD NBN area and have build starting in the second half of this year. In our own thread of locals there look to be no real start on remediation in the area but given the timeline has works starting this year, I have to think that contracts would already have been awarded.
Cynically, I believe it is in Labour's best interest to not give specifics and say 'each will be reviewed' as people like myself already with a build plan in the next 12mths would be in for terrible disappointment, knowing that the NBN will actually get better but not for you.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Labor will retain the status quo of MTM for the next few years
You really need to read the ALP policy before posting Raoul.
Today was about a slight differentiation to the MTM plan with Labor proposing to make slight variations closer to the end of the decade .
LOL, talk about living in a fantasy world.
it will take a very long time to implement FTTP.
Are you saying that Turnbull and co have completely screwed up nbn� so badly that they've forgotten how to do the job they were created to do?
You really need to read the ALP policy before posting Raoul.
Seems none of the tr..lls have read the policy. Just responding ad-hoc from kiddy scripts.
Cynically, I believe it is in Labour's best interest to not give specifics and say 'each will be reviewed' as people like myself already with a build plan in the next 12mths would be in for terrible disappointment, knowing that the NBN will actually get better but not for you.
If built has already started then you're stuck with FTTN, but that doesn't mean your vote doesn't matter � improving the overall economics of the project will benefit you also (with reduction to CVC charges for example) and reduce the time you'll be stuck on FTTN.
If FTTP ideologies were truly, truly convinced by the merits of fiber they would be trashing Labor's half baked policy which relies on century old copper and contention disabling rubbish crap HFC .
Yours is an incredibly foolish and uninformed response.
Labor's policy is the best that can be realistically done, given the huge mess that Malcolm Turnbull and the LNP have done. I'm sorry if people aren't being 'fibre zealots' like you expect.
FTTN and HFC are crap and obsolete. But the LNP have screwed the country into needing to continue that rollout for just long enough to get the fibre rollout ramped up again. Labor's plan is the best anyone can do.
To put that into perspective
It is a comfortable idea to be able to always rely on your thoroughness. :)
It seems to indicate to me that the HFC contracts have been signed and they are forced to use it hence the only 40% FTTP.
I understand the issue is the sunk costs on HFC, Clare said it was more than $1b, I am not sure if he mispoke or if it is that much.
That was pretty impressive imo. My opinion of Clare has gone up a bit.
I have met him once and spent maybe 15 minutes having a chat, I agree.
You really need to read the ALP policy before posting Raoul.
Where can I read it?
Where can I read it?
Here we are:
http://www.100positivepo
If built has already started then you're stuck with FTTN
Yes this part of their statement is clear but my question was more on the specifics about what is in build and what isn't. NBN have three year build plan, you could say any area outlined there is actually in build. Obviously the reality will be more related to which areas have had their contracts issued and equipment/materials purchased. So, back to the original question and my assertion that we will not find out the details. My area is not in build, but it is close. Many people will be in the same boat, NBN builds starting in the next 6-12mths and they will want to know how this effects them, but sadly it would be not in Labour interest to tell us.
Re voting, I'm pragmatic enough to know that a vote for faster, more fibre broadband is better for everyone and our economy regardless of if it gets delivered to me.
Thanks for the policy links, guys.
For many very good reasons.
Most of it political. There seems to be a trend on here that when Liberal party does something it's bad, but when the Labor does something it's good. Or when Liberals tell something it's a lie, when Labor says something it's the unadulterated truth. When Liberals do something " it's for political purposes" , when Labor "because they truly care about people and have great economic vision". There doesn't seem to be any middle ground or grey area, it's all just base, partisan, petty politics.
It's not a slight modification of the Coalition's failed approach.
Yes it is. Under their policy only 39% will be getting FTTP, the rest will be getting a turd sandwich. Its only slightly different to the mix identified in the strategic review, which we all know how that was received. Handing overlay responsibility of FTTN network to IA is just bait to appease fibre fanatics who demand nothing less . Of course Labor could just come out and say "we're going to commit x dollars to transition fttn customers to fttp" is just a cop out because they lack the will to seriously commit to it.
That is all still true. Sadly, the luddites got elected and have proceeded to infect the project � it'll take a long time to cut out all the rot.
If it's all true, then why don't Labor proceed to roll out fibre to 93% of premises as per their original plan and therefore save the economy and budget billions in maintenance and continued "infection" costs? Saying it's gonna take a "long time" is just a cop out because in truth everyone knows FTTN and HFC will be OKAY in the short term and possibly mid term.
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say.
What part of the policy gave you the impression that FTTN is in any way fit for purpose? As for HFC, the luddites and their dodgy contracts have locked it in so short of giving Telstra yet another massive bucket of cash the only option is to spend massive amounts of money on bringing it up to scratch.
The part where Labor announced they will continue with a % of FTTN households without committing to migrating these households to FTTP. Given that absolutely no country in the world is currently upgrading it's entire population to FTTP I don't think this will rate high on IA's agenda.
sadly it would be not in Labour interest to tell us.
True, perhaps you should ask Malcolm where that "more transparency" is which he promised he would implement once he would be Telecommunication Minister.
Nobody knows what is issued contractual wise. And attempting to get that information can result in a visit of the AFP.
Your question is absolute fair and valid, yet nobody is able to answer that question other than NBN Co.
the rest will be getting a turd sandwich.
So you acknowledge the mtm is a turd? At last..
There seems to be a trend on here that when Liberal party does something it's bad
I think you are just being paranoid and looking at everything through political lenses...
I (and most here) just look at the results. When it hurts the country it is bad, when it helps the country it is good.
When John Howard got rid of the guns, that was good...when the LNP came up with this monstrosity, that was bad.
Under their policy only 39% will be getting FTTP, the rest will be getting a turd sandwich
That is actually a Turdbull sandwich...that money and commitment has already been made by the LNP, and cannot reasonably be undone quickly. They have also committed to immediately commissioning a study on how to undo the Turd...
Yes it could. But then again they could raise the funding cap.
It seems pretty silly to me to cap government equity investment and then cap private debt on an infrastructure project of this nature.
As Frank mentioned there isn't really an end to the entire rollout, just the brownfields component (and this is what they really mean when they talk of a cap, I suppose).
I suspect it's political.
Agreed. Let us hope (in vain � I know) that the politics will be put aside.
They've been hamstrung in their performance by having to toe the government line.
If the failure of management to find savings in the FttP rollout is due to them having to toe the government line all the more reason to get rid of the shifty pricks. What a misuse of public funds!
If it is because they were simply unable to find savings � get rid of them and give someone else a go.
Most of it political.
None of it political � all are technical and economic.
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground or grey area, it's all just base, partisan, petty politics.
That's definitely true of MTM supporters.
Yes it is.
If you believe that then you need to read the policy and keep reading it over and over until it sinks in.
Under their policy only 39% will be getting FTTP, the rest will be getting a turd sandwich.
So you admit that the MTM is a turd sandwich?
Its only slightly different to the mix identified in the strategic review, which we all know how that was received.
You are confused � the strategic review was a political document created at the time that NBNCo were doing their job and rolling out the NBN... it has no relevance to the disastrous situation Turnbull et al have put us in.
If it's all true, then why don't Labor proceed to roll out fibre to 93% of premises as per their original plan and therefore save the economy and budget billions in maintenance and continued "infection" costs?
You can't undo an infection!
everyone knows FTTN and HFC will be OKAY in the short term and possibly mid term.
The only people who know that are those that uncritically believe what Malcolm Turnbull says � anyone with technical or economic savvy knows that it's rubbish.
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say.
Isn't it amazing that every Coalition supporter here seems to say the same thing?
The part where Labor announced they will continue with a % of FTTN households without committing to migrating these households to FTTP.
You really need to read the policy again.
Given that absolutely no country in the world is currently upgrading it's entire population to FTTP I don't think this will rate high on IA's agenda.
You should probably read about the original NBN policy also, to understand why your discussion of "upgrading an entire population to FTTP" is irrelevant.
I am a bit confused about the HFC retention in Labor's policy.
What does this really mean?
I am a bit confused about the HFC retention in Labor's policy.
What does this really mean?
It's means that the HFC will remain for meantime with possible overbuild with fttp on completion of nbn.
How do we know which suburbs/regional areas are in the lucky 2 million figure? I really want to know.
I am a bit confused about the HFC retention in Labor's policy.
What does this really mean?
The new agreement with Telstra and purchase of equipment means that much of the HFC has already been bought and cannot be stopped. They will be commissioning Internet Australia on developing a plan and timing for changing both existing FTTN and HFC to FTTP...
Most of it political. There seems to be a trend on here that when Liberal party does something it's bad, but when the Labor does something it's good.
Given that the LNP have had what is it now twenty or so different policies since they sold Telstra off � none of which has served the National interest I might add, nor worked other than for the vested interests associated with their policies then this is quite understandable!
Then you have for example Tony Abbott ordering Malcolm Turnbull to "Demolish the NBN"
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2
Which of course was "bad" for All Australians.
Whilst Labor continue with their Fibre vision in spite of the train wreck turnbull and co together with the rest of the LNP have been responsible for with respect to the last 3 years and their FRAUDBAND alternative.
And I might add their openly stated policy of "privatising" NBN Co as soon as possible!
Which effectively doesn't provide for migrating those poor bastards off the obsolete copper and digital abyss that turnbull has bulldozed them into.
Whoops but's that's another thing that provides an ideological divide between providing a national network with equality of access to all Australians under Labor and the LNP's policy of allowing the so called "free market" to provide a solution � which simply doesn't work with what essentially should be considered a public utility service. A point that even the President of the United States of America has made comment on, given its importance to all citizens today and more importantly � into the future.
What does this really mean?
They'll be using the HFC.
In theory it should be fine.
The practice, given the notable delays from the Coalition on getting anyone onto it, remains to be seen.
if not posted
'We will look at this" is a cheap consolation to all those with FTTN. The review will say, "it will cost $X Billion" and then the govt will have to sell this further investment in a future election.
I feel like Labour have utterly failed to connect with the message that NBN isn't a cost, it is investment. Both the actual money used will be paid back through user subscription AND the fact that modernising our economy via fast broadband. Massive failure to connect on this message. People just don't get it, as the average person about the NBN and they would assume the money comes out of the budget against other services like health or middle class welfare.
How do we know which suburbs/regional areas are in the lucky 2 million figure?
The best we can tell so far is that if you're not on the (out of date but we're not allowed to see an update) three year rollout plan, don't have HFC available nearby and were in the fixed line footprint of the NBN then you'll probably get FTTP... beyond that it's a matter of guesswork.
Simple point is, if the LNP/coalition didn't stick their ideological driven ore in this wouldn�t be a problem today.
But no the LNP has to go against a policy just out of spite and refuses to listen to expert advice because they are arrogant enough to think whats best.
Now the ALP has to clean up as much as possible of the disaster the LNP has created.
LNP did the destruction out of political spite.
Now we can hope for the best out of the situation that ALP has laid out to fix the LNP/coalition mongrel.
I feel like Labour have utterly failed to connect with the message that NBN isn't a cost, it is investment. Both the actual money used will be paid back through user subscription AND the fact that modernising our economy via fast broadband. Massive failure to connect on this message.
Yep, although I don't know how much of that is Labor not saying it and how much is the media not reporting what they do say.
Labor's plan is the best anyone can do.
With the best the Federal Coalition can do after any election win is probably to declare NBN Co bankrupt, a failed GBE experiment, and shut up shop ASAP.
There doesn't seem to be any middle ground or grey area, it's all just base, partisan, petty politics.
We are in care taker mode and if you didn't notice an election is coming up. :)
Being political agnostic, as engineer, I say any policy that delivers faster speed Internet to Australians is good. We got a backlog of an odd 10 years there, implementing FTTN adds another 5 years on top of that for the large majority of our population. No politics, currently simply a network is build that is not cost-economical and is based on a 15 year old technology not being able to meet demand by 2020. Simple. No politics.
To be fair, I miss that in the ALP policy, the future demand for bandwidth which should drive this project at large on technology choice. The current state is highlighted sufficiently enough, but not the future demands. I miss that as argument to move to the FTTP roll out.
The part where Labor announced they will continue with a % of FTTN households without committing to migrating these households to FTTP.
Ah, you expect Labor to fix up the LNP's mistakes at first instance and bear the cost blow outs for it?
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say.
FTTN, short term, yes, middle long term no. HFC until at least some capital spending of the LNP as been returned. My concern is the state of the HFC. Labor could be caught out there if not careful.
I don't think this will rate high on IA's agenda.
I don't think that cost-economical decisions are a consideration for Infrastructure Australia. Infrastructure Australia should set a engineering perspective out for the government based on global developments in the world. It should replace the role of the Communications Alliance, which was more a lobby group of the Industry. We know the dramas on policy influence on that one. According to the Harper Review, policy should be made for all Australians. Not for a selected group of our Industry so I think the proposal is good, but I would make it a joint effort between End Users and engineers. I would invite Internet Australia to do the same to get the End Users point of view.
The best we can tell so far is that if you're not on the (out of date but we're not allowed to see an update) three year rollout plan, don't have HFC available nearby and were in the fixed line footprint of the NBN then you'll probably get FTTP... beyond that it's a matter of guesswork.
Yes I'm on the three year plan but late 2018 build. No HFC available and the FTTN work haven't been done yet. I guess we will see after a Shorten government win this July 2nd ????
Wow, they've come out and hit it for 6!
They knew what they needed to highlight!
They have my vote!
With the best the Federal Coalition can do after any election win is probably to declare NBN Co bankrupt, a failed GBE experiment, and shut up shop ASAP.
True, but sadly that is not an option. Not global development wise and most definitely not financially.
I feel like Labour have utterly failed to connect with the message that NBN isn't a cost, it is investment. Both the actual money used will be paid back through user subscription AND the fact that modernising our economy via fast broadband. Massive failure to connect on this message. People just don't get it, as the average person about the NBN and they would assume the money comes out of the budget against other services like health or middle class welfare.
I have to somewhat agree with you. This is backed up with the word invest or investment appearing about 6 times only in the 33 page policy document. Whereas the word "cost' appears about 26 times.
p3 The financial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has crashed from 7.1 per cent to as low as 2.7 per cent.
p17 Mr Turnbull�s decision to switch to inferior technologies has also had signi cant adverse effects on the return to taxpayers from their $29.5 billion investment.
p17 Under Mr Turnbull�s watch, the nancial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has now crashed from 7.1 per cent to as low as 2.7 per cent
p18 It is no longer possible to roll out bre-to-the-premises to 93 per cent of homes and businesses in one stage. Over the last three years, approximately $15.7 billion in public investment has been sunk into the NBN.47 Labor cannot x the mess Mr Turnbull has made with the flick of a switch, or by pulling out every node, or stopping all the work NBN is currently doing without potentially causing more problems and wasting a lot of sunk investment.
At 30 June 2016:
The taxpayer�s total investment in the NBN is expected to be $21 billion (of $29.5 billion total).
p21 Labor will reverse Mr Turnbull�s decision to place the West Coast of Tasmania on the satellites. Under Labor Queenstown, Zeehan and Rosebery will be delivered 21st century bre-to-the- premises, as they were promised by both parties in 2013. A provision for this investment has been made.
Mr Turnbull ignored this advice. Under his watch, the forecast nancial return to taxpayers on their $29.5 billion investment has now plummeted to as low as 2.7 per cent.
Make no mistake, FTTN and HFC are here to say
Thanks to lnp and their signing of dodgy ass contracts.. Should be held accountable imo
I guess we will see after a Shorten government win this July 2nd ????
IF Labor wins government, there is a lot of issues to deal with. Firstly and most important turning NBN Co again in a transparent GBE it once was. That will not be a easy task.
There is currently not much we know. And that includes information on which areas have been awarded by contracts and in which areas, work has actually started.
True, but sadly that is not an option.
In which case, Turnbull most definitely is Conservative toast, and consigned to the bargain fibre to the basement bin.
People just don't get it, as the average person about the NBN and they would assume the money comes out of the budget against other services like health or middle class welfare.
Currently the NBN isn't on budget � however given the disastrous predicament of its revenue base under the LNP and the fact they the LNP are yet to publish a business case to support further investment into their MTM alternative.
The reality is that it will have to be brought back onto budget which of course would see budget deficit which has tripled under the LNP since coming to office blow out even further!
Whilst on the other hand Labor's return to provisioning more Fibre and provisioning the SME and Enterprise market with NBN services and replacing copper sooner rather than later would see its revenue base restored somewhat � and the financial market more readily looking at again, investing in the network of the future! instead of the LNP's noodle network to nowhere which pretty much describes their FTTNnnn alternative which frankly no one else is bothering building anywhere on this planet except here in Australia under the turnbull and co's LNP.
As for competition in the market place, well 80Gbps NG-PON2 pretty much puts paid to FTTB and then some � whilst a new NBN National Wifi Network run off its Fibre assets � would also add further revenue's to NBN coffers -
Which of course would piss some off in the marketplace but then its what's in the National interest that best � not what's best for those private market operators in what essentially should be a public utility piece of infrastructure.
why don't Labor proceed to roll out fibre to 93% of premises as per their original plan and therefore save the economy and budget billions in maintenance and continued "infection" costs?
Why don't the LNP?
I think you are just being paranoid and looking at everything through political lenses...
I (and most here) just look at the results. When it hurts the country it is bad, when it helps the country it is good.
When John Howard got rid of the guns, that was good...when the LNP came up with this monstrosity, that was bad.
Don't think so mate. There's a fair amount of Liberal bashing and name calling that goes on here, "luddites" and the rest. In addition there's been ZERO scrutiny of anything Labor has ever done, EVER! ZERO SCRUTINY! EVER!! Even when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions and costs were skyrocketing the consensus here was everything was on time and budget, there were no problems at all, Conroy was still god. But by golly when a leaked NBN report revealed the FTTN roll out might have been delayed by a few thousand premises there was absolute pandemonium.
I'll be the first to admit MTM has become a bit of a farce, fttn capex being the main concern, but Labor are far from clean skins in all of this.
That is actually a Turdbull sandwich...that money and commitment has already been made by the LNP, and cannot reasonably be undone quickly. They have also committed to immediately commissioning a study on how to undo the Turd...
Commissioning a study? lol Why can't it be undone quickly? If HFC and FTTN are soooo bad, isn't time of the essence in getting those problems rectified? Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
The reality is that it will have to be brought back onto budget which of course would see budget deficit which has tripled under the LNP since coming to office blow out even further!
But the Federal Coalition suddenly bringing the NBN onto the budget gives it just the excuse to have an emergency min-budget for emergency savings to protect our credit rating and implement things like massively scaling down the ABC/SBS, deep cuts into welfare, education and family tax benefits and more user pays in health and education. Basically a re-run of the austerity measures it tried on in the failed 2014 Federal Budget.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
If it wasn't for Labor there would be no satellites
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
You are mistaken � Labor will improve the economics of the whole project and reduce the load on the satellite (the opposite of what Turnbull and co have done and will continue to do).
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
They will have 1 more sattelite and potentially look at funding more.
We should be either funding enough sats to give everyone 100mbs or funding more fttp when we can.
They may even put more users on fixed line (fttp or hfc).
Page 19 states greenfields are by fttp � so this reversal is good.
You are mistaken
I take it by your answer the answer to my question is NO, Labor do not give two hoots about sat users.
So no reason at all to vote labor on this issue.
Labor's policy hasn't been shortened at all instead the reality is the existing contracts put in situ by turnbull and co are a commercial reality today!
Fair comment, the ALP still look like making a better fist of this mess. But the uneasy look in Shorten's eyes said "I think I got away with it". You could see he was parroting the old slogan and just managed to pull himself up in time. Luckily for him none of the journos pounced, and he quickly handed over to Clare.
Once or if Labor get back in don't think things are going to move quickly. Once they remove the staff they don't want at NBN co and retool and sign new contracts it will be another 2 years. Anyone in the roll out plan in the next year or so will have to wait another few more years.... Just my guess this will just delay things further.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Melton, 50-60KM from the Melb CBD.
Good demonstration of not knowing Melbourne at all ;) Its 44km by road, Its outer ring, just like exists in the eastern suburbs out past Dandenong and around, but never mind that because its distance from the CBD is completely irrelevant.
Labor are not going to bother as they know project fox was a cherry picked rollout
This is true to a certain extent. It didn't have to deal with a high MDU count. For the rest however, The whole rollout area was 0 � 40 years old for the ducting used, which gives a pretty good indication of a large percentage of the country, and the soil is rock, which is a good test for digging time. That said, they kind of are, because the new rollout techniques relied on do include the techniques used in Melton. This includes those deployments currently being done by NBN Co.
They can not immediately dump FTTN, as said it will take a very long time to implement FTTP.
They did not say that. They said its a sunk cost, and that they are going to engage IA to put together a plan to upgrade from FTTN to FTTP. They don't say it will take a very long time to implement, just that they are not starting by ripping out FTTN.
Whatever happened to Operation Clust**** making HFC bad according to conroy?
You clearly missed the part about sunk costs. Yes HFC is a terrible idea, however NBN Co have already signed the contracts for all the CMTS' from Arris, something that will be almost a billion dollars in sunk costs, and they have signed a $1.6b deal with Telstra for Telstra HFC construction. By my count that puts the total sunk costs into HFC at about $2.5billion, HFC is done. We have no choice but to continue this rollout and replace it when the time is right rather than wasting billions to get out of it.
But no the LNP has to go against a policy just out of spite and refuses to listen to expert advice because they are arrogant enough to think whats best.
If the expert advise is for the government to roll out fttp to 93% of the population, why aren't other countries listening to the experts, and instead rolling out VDSL and HFC faster than FTTP in places like Europe and North America?
Now the ALP has to clean up as much as possible of the disaster the LNP has created.
But they're not, they're just putting a band aid on it. Most Australians will still be stuck with 16th century infrastructure with god awful 100mbps! How will ever cope!
There's a fair amount of Liberal bashing and name calling that goes on here, "luddites" and the rest.
Why do you object to the use of accurate descriptions?
In addition there's been ZERO scrutiny of anything Labor has ever done, EVER!
You are completely wrong.
when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions
When was this?
costs were skyrocketing
When did this happen?
But by golly when a leaked NBN report revealed the FTTN roll out might have been delayed by a few thousand premises there was absolute pandemonium.
The FTTN rollout has been delayed by millions of premises.
Why can't it be undone quickly?
Because you need to gain the facts that nbn� and this government have been keeping secret then understand the nature and extent of the mess we're in before plotting a course out of it.
Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
Turnbull and co have been destroying the project for less than two years (although it's true that they've been trying for a lot longer).
Currently the NBN isn't on budget � however given the disastrous predicament of its revenue base under the LNP and the fact they the LNP are yet to publish a business case to support further investment into their MTM alternative.
A political goal should be to keep it out of the budget. The policy published today, does exactly that. It raises the IRR which is the way to go for the moment. If you slash assets where you invested in, NBN Co drops instantly under the 2.5% which is the wrong approach as it would turn an infrastructural long term investment into expenditure on the budget.
The reality is that it will have to be brought back onto budget which of course would see budget deficit which has tripled under the LNP since coming to office blow out even further!
My point, increase FTTP is the smarter way to go, as it is known to have higher and faster uptake rates then FTTN, delivering faster an economical return in amount.
I spoke in the MTM-thread about the fact that "passed premises" are an expenditure and "active premises" are a revenue source. Shifting to FTTP, maximises the active premises so it is a smart move.
the financial market more readily look at again investing in the network of the future instead of the LNP's noodle network to nowhere which pretty much describes their FTTNnnn alternative.
Indeed, they should attempt to replace slowly over time, the bonds by capital from the public market. The only way they can achieve this, by developing NBN Co into a innovative company, technology wise. Bill Morrow should understand that you can't do this by being technology agnostic. FTTN doesn't fit into to this approach short and long term. HFC doesn't fit in long term.
I take it by your answer the answer to my question is NO
He actually answered it perfectly, which means the answer to your question is YES.
I take it by your answer the answer to my question is NO, Labor do not give two hoots about sat users.
You are wrong � the answer was and is a resounding yes.
So no reason at all to vote labor on this issue.
You're not going to pretend that you were ever going to vote Labor on any issue, are you?
http://bbpmag.com/wordpress2
The FTTH technology just keeps improving.
I understand the issue is the sunk costs on HFC, Clare said it was more than $1b
It most certainly is more than a billion, especially with any poison pill in the Telstra HFC delivery deal. They have already purchased the CMTS' from Arris for $400 million, then there is the modem NTD delivery on top of that to start soon, which would be close to that again. Who knows what kind of cancellation policy the Telstra HFC delivery deal has but it has the potential to be several million. There really is no choice but to continue, but I've been saying that since the Arris deal was originally signed.
the uneasy look in Shorten's eyes said "I think I got away with it".
I think the uneasy look in Shorten's eyes was more to do with him thinking that Clare is way more suited to being PM than he is. Shorten won't last long if he wins. Don't think there will be too many tears if Shorten quietly retires, and Clare or Albanese takes over the reigns well before the 2019 election, should Shorten become PM.
A vote for Labor is a vote for a future Clare or Albanese as PM in my eyes.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits
So lets look at the history here hat92.
Mike Quigley was going to deliver Satellite to 200,000 users and had a policy that provided that where any link in Labor's National network exceeded a 67 percent utilisation limit that these would be then upgraded!
To that end he announced prior to the last election that FTTH would be delivered further and deeper into both the Satellite and Wireless footprints and that this would be done at no additional cost to budget ensuring that the Satellite service was provided to those who live beyond the economic reach of FTTH and further didn't have plans to flog its bandwidth off to the commercial market as we've seen announced under the LNP this year by Qantas and Bill Morrow and further and importantly!
Labor provided redundancy in its network design to ensure that services could continue should sections of the Satellite network fail as is part of the course with this technology something that no longer exists under the LNP model!
The sad facts are that turnbull and co intend to deliver Satellite Services to those in Regional Australia who were previously earmarked for FTTH and that they have extended the Wireless footprint from 3 to 4 percent provides -------a very clear distinction between what Labor's commitment to Regional Australia is with respect to Broadband services.
I might add here that the new 3rd Generation Ka-Band Satellites now being operationalised were, according to turnbull and the LNP ---
An "expensive waste of taxpayers money" and that the "commercial" market had more than enough bandwidth to service Australia's needs!
Which as it turns out was simply drivel and diatribe from turnbull as we all now know � but further, it would be remiss of Labor not to ask what happens to the Satellite service under the LNP if they are re-elected �
Will it simply be flogged off in line with their ideological position of privatisation and further will Regional Australia be left in the backwater broadband network that the commercial operators have traditionally provided under Coalition Governments.
Obviously some questions to put to Jason Clare with respect to Regional Australia and how provisioning FTTH could be used to reduce the capacity demands on the finite resources of the 2 Satellites as is currently the case under the LNP thereby improving the service for existing users � whilst taking those the LNP have duckshoved onto the Satellite service off � and onto FTTH with Queenstown and a few others in Tasmania immediately coming to mind.
Cheers
If the expert advise is for the government to roll out fttp to 93% of the population, why aren't other countries listening to the experts, and instead rolling out VDSL and HFC faster than FTTP in places like Europe and North America?
Please cite your sources.
But they're not, they're just putting a band aid on it.
Are you saying that the MTM is a gaping wound?
NO, Labor do not give two hoots about sat users.
Few questions for you.
Firstly, who said that ordering three satellites was a waste of taxpayers money?
Secondly, which party actually put a policy in place, that arranged those satellites?
You are wrong � the answer was and is a resounding yes.
Well if you make stuff up like you have done it might be yes.
Unfortunately the truth is different
Labor won�t touch existing satellites or fixed wireless technology, which account for about 7 per cent of the rollout
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
As they view the NBN as a platform over which businesses can give and recieve services and not as a Foxtel threatening entertainment system, I think you may be mistaken.
There are downsides.
HFC re-use and support. Already contracted. Telstra execs would be likely to injure themselves laughing if Sorten asked if they want to buy it back.
FTTN (existing). An upgrade path will need to be delveloped. The choice is do it sooner and write down the investment, or do it later and cop the negitive returns, as well as the impacts to other service delivery and economy.
We've had NBN: A New Hope, the MTM Strikes Back, and now Return of the NBN, with another sequel needed in the near future. Fun.
Unfortunately the truth is different
No, it really isn't.
Labor won�t touch existing satellites or fixed wireless technology, which account for about 7 per cent of the rollout
You mean Labor won't touch the existing Labor satellites (which Turnbull said weren't needed) or the Labor fixed wireless technology, nor will they load them up with premises excised from the fixed line footprint as the Coalition have and will.
Lil bit off-topic which I'm sorry for, but why we need to get away from FTTN -
that 3.9 million enterprises (72% of businesses) suffered �up to� 8 Internet outages and 43 hours of downtime each during 2015 and they could have lost productivity worth an estimated �12.3 billion.
also found that the worst hit are smaller businesses, many of which tend to rely on consumer grade broadband connectivity (e.g. ADSL, FTTC etc.) and these suffered double the amount of downtime.
Why do you object to the use of accurate descriptions?
I object when the descriptions aren't accurate, and when they're entirely political and used in a perjorative context.
You are completely wrong.
No I'm not.
When did this happen?
It's been happening since the start
The FTTN rollout has been delayed by millions of premises.
Hahahaha
Because you need to gain the facts that nbn� and this government have been keeping secret then understand the nature and extent of the mess we're in before plotting a course out of it.
Ah yes the old "naughty libs are trying to wreck the nbn" chesnut
Turnbull and co have been destroying the project for less than two years (although it's true that they've been trying for a lot longer).
Hahaahaha
Firstly, who said that ordering three satellites was a waste of taxpayers money?
Secondly, which party actually put a policy in place, that arranged those satellites?
Thirdly, which party said we didn't need the satellites or that private enterprise should do it?
Fourthly, which party wanted to double the number of people on those satellites?
Labor will be stuck with the remains of the LNP stuff-up for the next few years
I suspect it is going to take longer than a few years to fix.
Should Labor get the opportunity to try to mitigate the current mess they should insist that the entire text for nbnTurnbullsMisfeasance be shown an all official documents and marketing materials until the situation is finally rectified � some time in the early 2030s I would expect, when the HFC is finally replaced with FttP.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/why-
but one may wonder why the Labor party will not also pledge to move some of the HFC premises to Fibre to the Premises. Further, why only shift 2 million premises to fibre? That�s because of one word: contracts.
I object when the descriptions aren't accurate, and when they're entirely political and used in a perjorative context.
So you shouldn't object to their use in this thread then.
No I'm not.
If you believe that then you should get reading the forum.
It's been happening since the start
In other words, it didn't happen.
Hahahaha
You find this government's failure funny? I find it revolting, but not unexpected.
Ah yes the old "naughty libs are trying to wreck the nbn" chesnut
It's an undeniable fact.
Ah yes the old "naughty libs are trying to wreck the nbn" chesnut
They aren't trying, they already have.
and here the mud comes
The LNP have nothing.
It's the same time frames, the same cost but their solution provides � the roi.
They need to change to this policy and be done with it.
Might be a bit harder convincing all those potential Copper Gurus from Ireland and wherever to take a risk across the seas to work on the Australian copper now that Labor has announced it's Copper Stopper policy.
With some of Copper Gurus, after reading Labor's NBN policy release today, maybe to start questioning whether the Federal Coalition will also stop the copper sooner rather than later, should it retain power.
You mean Labor won't touch the existing Labor satellites
The ones that are giving us 35GB download limits with no increase in actual coverage, still 3% of premises.
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why would you trust them again.
Labor won�t touch existing satellites or fixed wireless technology, which account for about 7 per cent of the rollout
Policy..,
"The rollout of Labor�s fixed wireless and satellite networks, and fibre-to-the-basement, will also continue. Greenfields will be delivered fibre-to-the-premises"
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why is the current situation their fault?
Who has been in power for 3 years?
The LNP changed it and are to blame.
Without the ALP you wouldn't have those satellites!
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why would you trust them again.
Gotta love you bagging the only party that was willing to launch new satellites in the first place. But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
The ones that are giving us 35GB download limits
The Coalition were in charge when the FUP limit was set.
no increase in actual coverage, still 3% of premises.
That claim doesn't become true by repetition.
But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
I crashed the Car, but it was my dads fault, he bought it..
Few questions for you.
Firstly, who said that ordering three satellites was a waste of taxpayers money?
Secondly, which party actually put a policy in place, that arranged those satellites?
Thirdly, which party doubled the number of users that are to be on satellite?
Gotta love you bagging the only party that was willing to launch new satellites in the first place. But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
Bit like your favorite (insert competition sport here) team wins and then blaming them at the same time for winning.
The LNP changed it and are to blame.
Without the ALP you wouldn't have those satellites!
True especially when you look at the history eg
.
Mike Quigley was going to deliver Satellite to 200,000 users � as provided in NBN's Corporate Plan � under the LNP its now 400,000 and I might add that Mike had a policy that provided that where any link in Labor's National network exceeded a 67 percent utilisation limit that these would be then upgraded!
So essentially if a Satellite Spot beam reached that limit then either Fixed Wireless or FTTH would be deployed into the footprint.
To that end he announced prior to the last election that FTTH would be delivered further and deeper into both the Satellite and Wireless footprints and that this would be done at no additional cost to budget ensuring that the Satellite service was provided to those who live beyond the economic reach of FTTH and further didn't have plans to flog its bandwidth off to the commercial market as we've seen announced under the LNP this year by Qantas and Bill Morrow and further and importantly!
//
Labor provided redundancy in its network design to ensure that services could continue should sections of the Satellite network fail as is part of the course with this technology something that no longer exists under the LNP model!
The sad facts are that turnbull and co intend to deliver Satellite Services to those in Regional Australia who were previously earmarked for FTTH and that they have extended the Wireless footprint from 3 to 4 percent provides -------a very clear distinction between what Labor's commitment to Regional Australia is with respect to Broadband services.
I might add here that the new 3rd Generation Ka-Band Satellites now being operationalised were, according to turnbull and the LNP ---
An "expensive waste of taxpayers money" and that the "commercial" market had more than enough bandwidth to service Australia's needs!
Which as it turns out was simply drivel and diatribe from turnbull as we all now know � but further, it would be remiss of Labor not to ask what happens to the Satellite service under the LNP if they are re-elected �
Will it simply be flogged off in line with their ideological position of privatisation and further will Regional Australia be left in the backwater broadband network that the commercial operators have traditionally provided under Coalition Governments.
Obviously some questions to put to Jason Clare with respect to Regional Australia and how provisioning FTTH could be used to reduce the capacity demands on the finite resources of the 2 Satellites thereby improving the service for existing users �
Whilst taking those the LNP have duckshoved and I might add many still blissfully unaware � onto the Satellite service � off! and onto FTTH with Queenstown and a few others in Tasmania immediately coming to mind
Cheers
https://delimiter.com.au/20
and here the mud comes
Think that mud sticks to nothing really. Poor shot, but I didn't expect anything else from him.
Mark Gregory's take on the ALP-policy:
http://www.theaus
On FTTN:
There�s no turning back of the clock to the full-fibre vision laid out in the original NBN plan, instead Labor is hoping to bury the fibre-to-the-nodes (FTTN) folly for good and provide Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) to an additional two million premises. It may seem limited to those hoping for more dramatic action from Bill Shorten but the policy is fiscally responsible, technically sound and shifts the focus back to providing Australia with a more reliable broadband infrastructure.
I agree.
On HFC:
The decision to continue with the remediation, upgrade and integration of the existing Hybrid Fibre Coax (HFC) networks into the NBN is significant. It may have its detractors and the cable infrastructure may not be in the best condition but decommissioning this asset is simply no longer possible. About 34 per cent of premises will be connected to the NBN using HFC and contracts were signed earlier this year with Telstra for HFC remediation, upgrades and new construction to ensure that customers within the HFC footprint can connect to the NBN and achieve 100/40 Mbps, which remains the target connection speed for the FTTP rollout.
Again I agree. Bold is mine, to illustrate the same conclusion from jxeeno, it is the contracts.
On the revenue, expenditure and IIR:
With FTTP customers expected to connect at higher speed tiers, more fibre means more money for NBN Co�s coffers and that�s the assumption that underpins Labor�s plan to deliver an internal rate of at least 3.9 per cent. It�s a significant improvement over the current internal rate of return that has slumped to between 2.7 and 3 per cent.
Which was the point I made earlier.
Neat rounding up:
The two great myths perpetuated by the Coalition Government, that Labor�s NBN plan will cost $30bn more and will take ten years longer than the Coalition�s NBN plan, can now be set aside for good.
Please note you can access paywalled articles by going to news.google.com.au and searching for the article then opening it there � I use firefox to do this.
Mark Gregory's take on the ALP-policy:
http://www.theaus
There�s no turning back of the clock to the full-fibre vision laid out in the original NBN plan, instead Labor is hoping to bury the fibre-to-the-nodes (FTTN) folly for good and provide Fibre to the Premises (FTTP) to an additional two million premises. It may seem limited to those hoping for more dramatic action from Bill Shorten but the policy is fiscally responsible, technically sound and shifts the focus back to providing Australia with a more reliable broadband infrastructure.
Labor�s new NBN plan may be marginally more expensive but the increased construction cost will be offset by a reduction in the operational cost because FTTP is cheaper to operate and this means that the public equity contribution remains at the current cap of $29.5bn.
With FTTP customers expected to connect at higher speed tiers, more fibre means more money for NBN Co�s coffers and that�s the assumption that underpins Labor�s plan to deliver an internal rate of at least 3.9 per cent
Bit like your favorite (insert competition sport here) team wins and then blaming them at the same time for winning.
He would prefer to get nothing apparently.
Mark Gregory's take on the ALP-policy:
A fiscally and technically responsible infrastructure plan is needed that identifies how to transition premises from FTTN to FTTP and whether the HFC networks should be upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 or replaced with FTTP. Labor has announced that it will commission Infrastructure Australia to carry out this review and to provide a report prior to the 2019 Federal Election that takes into account the views of Australian experts, consumer groups, business and the telecommunications industry.
Obviously here the actual state of the HFC network and those "buried" documents that discuss the existing state of the HFC network will form part of a future "PUBLIC" debate together with an proper examination on just what the costs are with respect to this!
Immediately one suspects that where you don't have overlap and that the Optus HFC exists only then it would be safe to assume that these area's will go FTTH given that Optus has stated they were going to decommission the HFC in 2018 anyway!
Fortunately, it would seem that Labor�s NBN tweaks are not going to be held hostage to another lengthy round of negotiations with Telstra. Shadow Minister for Communications Jason Clare told The Australian that changes to existing agreements with Telstra would not be necessary and this removes the need for construction to halt or be delayed while a new agreement clears the way for a rapid transition back to FTTP.
Even Telstra would understand that their business interests are best served with respect to provisioning RSP services across a wholesale FTTH network rather than the obsolete copper that turnbull was providing :- and that their future revenue base isn't in the infrastructure royalties and payments but rather in the next generation applications services that they will be able to deliver across a Fibre Optic network.
In addition there's been ZERO scrutiny of anything Labor has ever done
That is just not true...
Even when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions and costs were skyrocketing
When was that?
Why can't it be undone quickly?
The cost of breaking the contracts alone could be tens of billions...
Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
A decade? The commercial build began in March of 2012...but the problems didn't really occur until September 2013.
I take it Labor are not giving two hoots about satellite users and the pathetic 35GB data limits.
They are fixing the rest and getting people off of satellite as a result. This is the most that anyone CAN do...they cannot rewrite the laws of physics.
If the expert advise is for the government to roll out fttp to 93% of the population, why aren't other countries listening to the experts, and instead rolling out VDSL and HFC faster than FTTP in places like Europe and North America?
errr. what? got any links for this claim?
But they're not, they're just putting a band aid on it.
That's about the best that can be done right now mate.
Do you understand how big a project the NBN is? to put it simply, imagine driving a car. What you seem to want is for them to slam the breaks on while going 100km/h down the highway, jump into a different car, then take off in the other direction.
Guess what would happen If you did that? a bloody great wreck is what.
with god awful 100mbps
hmmm...where are you getting this from I wonder?
Gotta love you bagging the only party that was willing to launch new satellites in the first place. But keep going, keep voting for the mob that rather you didnt get anything at all!
This isn't true. Under Howard they planned to roll out FTTN and separate Telstra at minimal cost to the taxpayer, until ACCC stepped outside their remit and decided they were technology consultants.
Lets not forget Rudd based his initial NBN platform on fttn at a cost of four billion. It should have been fttn all the way, from the beginning, it would have been long completed by now and everyone would whinging about their 4G speeds rather than in what decade they will get decent broadband.
The business case for FTTP has always been based on platitudes like "turbo charged digital economy" and "future proof for the rise of super apps!" rather than any substantive or robust analysis.
The two great myths perpetuated by the Coalition Government, that Labor�s NBN plan will cost $30bn more and will take ten years longer than the Coalition�s NBN plan, can now be set aside for good.
It sounds like The Australian now supports the nbn � thanks to hfc being protected.
Yes I'm on the three year plan but late 2018 build.
The intention should be to ramp up FttP as quickly as possible. The revised plan puts the total FttN numbers at ~2.4 million. The current corporate plan is for ~2million to be completed by FY2017.
A rough guess would be no new FttN builds starting after FY2017 (and more likely April 2017).
It will really depend on how the FttP ramp up effects build resources across the industry.
Once or if Labor get back in don't think things are going to move quickly
I don't think anybody does...except the appointment of the commission.
Stopping the momentum of Turnbull's slide will not happen overnight.
Once they remove the staff they don't want at NBN co and retool and sign new contracts it will be another 2 years
Not really...they do not need any "retooling". In fact they could expand the FTTP rollout within a few months...
The intention should be to ramp up FttP as quickly as possible.
Switch back, employ people directly (creating jobs and growth) and go for it!
Get FTTP rolled out asap, increase revenue and then switch fttn/hfc areas where possible.
ACCC stepped outside their remit and decided they were technology consultants.
The ACCC is dysfunctional already since the Howard years when it comes to the Telecommunication portfolio. At least we agree on something. This being dysfunctional includes policy wise, regulatory wise, legally wise, mergers and about everything else. And I know that I am supported by many academics and industry members.
Which brings me to another matter I miss, the revamp of our Telecommunication regulation. None of the parties seem to be interested in it, yet is essential to make NBN into a success. Odd.
Under Howard they planned to roll out FTTN and separate Telstra at minimal cost to the taxpayer, until ACCC stepped outside their remit and decided they were technology consultants.
Please provide a link to support this assertion.
Lets not forget Rudd based his initial NBN platform on fttn at a cost of four billion. It should have been fttn all the way, from the beginning, it would have been long completed by now and everyone would whinging about their 4G speeds rather than in what decade they will get decent broadband.
How on earth did you miss the RFP process and the expert analysis that none of the FTTN proposals offered value for money?
The business case for FTTP has always been based on platitudes like "turbo charged digital economy" and "future proof for the rise of super apps!" rather than any substantive or robust analysis.
Completely false � the business case for FTTP has always been based on economic and technical facts, verified by robust substantive analysis.
It should have been fttn all the way, from the beginning, it would have been long completed by now
It would have been completed 4-7 years ago, and we would now still be going through an FTTP upgrade. The only difference is that the cost would have been far less (because we wouldn't have had to pay for the huge copper repair), and the revenue to date would have been greater.
Lets not forget Rudd based his initial NBN platform on fttn at a cost of four billion
That was not a tested cost, and was not to 93% of the premises in the country...
The business case for FTTP has always been based on platitudes like "turbo charged digital economy" and "future proof for the rise of super apps!" rather than any substantive or robust analysis
No, the business case is based on facts...
1. An economic fact is that each time you double broadband speed, you increase the GDP by 0.3% (just over $5 Billion/year).
2. Another fact is that the most current estimates say that over 600 Million premises around the world will have access to Gigabit internet by 2020...and we live in a global economy. That is the majority of homes on the planet.
They are fixing the rest and getting people off of satellite
Do you really think a couple of thousand people will make a difference? But ironically it will cost a lot of dollars to give people getting sat to give them FTTP. Their budget will be blown if they did.
Why make up these excuses when they are so lame?
Do you really think a couple of thousand people will make a difference?
A couple of thousand? More like a couple of hundred thousand...that is what Labor designed the Sat system for...it was the LNP that doubled it.
Immediately one suspects that where you don't have overlap and that the Optus HFC exists only then it would be safe to assume that these area's will go FTTH given that Optus has stated they were going to decommission the HFC in 2018 anyway!
Which is exactly the situation I am in now with Optus HFC 100/2, minimal peak hour congestion after an HFC upgrade earlier this year, the nearest Telstra HFC approx. 4km as the crow flies, and the NBN HFC build scheduled to commence sometime in the next 6 months, and RFS sometime in the next 6-12 months according to the last NBN Co schedule that found its way into the public arena.
errr. what? got any links for this claim?
Google it. Most FTTP growth is concentrated in Asia, VDSL and HFC in Europe and NA.
That's about the best that can be done right now mate.
Do you understand how big a project the NBN is? to put it simply, imagine driving a car. What you seem to want is for them to slam the breaks on while going 100km/h down the highway, jump into a different car, then take off in the other direction.
Guess what would happen If you did that? a bloody great wreck is what.
Why is it the best that can be done? Gubbermint could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works, and then figure out how much it will cost to upgrade the copper path to fiber, and then sign a bunch of new contracts to see the work done. Given much of the fiber is already laid, and the work force is nearing its peak, surely it would be far more costly to have to come back later and start all over again, so why not strike while the irons hot? It's because deep down, in your heart of hearts, you know FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs and the additional expense of overlaying with fiber is not worth it in the current economic and budget environment.
Why make up these excuses when they are so lame?
Only you can answer why you support the party that is making your connection (and the whole network, and the economy) worse.
FTTN and John Howard.
Make what you think of it.
Telstra made a welcome contribution to our salaries at Fairfax yesterday with $250,000 worth of full-page ads in the major daily newspapers. Ker-ching . . . thanks for that, Sol.
But like many advertising campaigns, the fact of the ads says more than what is in them.
Things must be going badly for Telstra. Yesterday's full-pagers were specifically aimed at the Prime Minister, John Howard, to get him to overrule those absolute bounders at the ACCC on fibre-to-the-node (FTTN) broadband.
Apparently Communications Minister Helen Coonan sort of, kind of, agreed to Telstra's demands two weeks ago, but Australian Competition and Consumer Commission chairman Graeme Samuel reminded her that there is a process of consultation to go through.
Last night, at a black-tie dinner in Hobart, Samuel held up his own advertisement in reply to Telstra's (although he is too stingy to contribute to Fairfax Media's coffers by actually buying space in the papers). It was simply a copy of Telstra's ad with the words "At What Price?" across it in blue.
What a ludicrous, farcical business Australia's progress towards true high-speed broadband has become.
Samuel knows exactly what price Telstra is proposing because he knocked it back, but he can't say what it is because he is bound by confidentiality agreements. Our political representative, Senator Coonan, also knows, but she won't say. Telstra obviously knows, but it won't say until it has bullied someone into agreeing to the price, in private.
Telstra's Phil Burgess mumbled a few weeks ago that it was in the mid-80s that is, around $85 per month per service, wholesale access. He then changed his mind and said the entry price is more like $60.
The competing G9 proposal started at $21 to $24, but that turns out to be the absolute entry level as well, and now they are saying the average is less than half Telstra's price, that is, around $40. Or is it $45?
It is suggested that Telstra's entry level $60 price will only apply to relatively slow speeds. The price of true high-speed broadband using FTTN will actually be around $85 a month wholesale. That means the retail price will be around $100 a month.
Gubbermint could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works
That is what they ARE doing...
Sorry, that is what Labor is promising to do...big difference. ;)
you know FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs
Actually, what I know is that this is absolutely untrue...
Google it.
Thank you for admitting that it was not true.
Gubbermint could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works, and then figure out how much it will cost to upgrade the copper path to fiber, and then sign a bunch of new contracts to see the work done.
You really need to real the policy you're talking about � if you do, you'll see that's exactly what's proposed.
FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs
Why do people like you keep claiming this against all evidence?
Why do people like you keep claiming this against all evidence?
To bollock up any kind of logic.
:0>
Malcolm Turnbull's Second Rate NBN:
https://www.facebook.com
it was the LNP that doubled it.
Why do you make up lies like that?
Everyone knows that even Mike Quigley said 3% of premises.
You lose all credibility when you just make stuff up.
Even when NBN Co were missing their targets by millions
Which targets were missed by millions � or were you simply exaggerating?
and costs were skyrocketing
Which were these? Are you talking about the Strategic Review? Some other financial report from NBNCo which shows costs 'skyrocketing'?
Allocating to IA now after almost a decade is a bit johnny come lately.
Asking IA to report on how to get to FttP from FttP would be a bit silly wouldn't it?
Do you really think a couple of thousand people will make a difference?
1% is 110,000 (based on 11 million premises).
The original plan was to connect 200,000 � the LNP DOUBLED the number to 400,000.
Google it. Most FTTP growth is concentrated in Asia, VDSL and HFC in Europe and NA.
Right, so fantasy then.
could simply pay contractors to finish the existing works, and then figure out how much it will cost to upgrade the copper path to fiber, and then sign a bunch of new contracts to see the work done.
...so you did read the ALP NBN policy, but want it to be the LNP policy.
FTTN and HFC are fine for
Deep down, in my heart of hearts, I know FTTN and HFC are not suitable for anything except disposing of.
the additional expense of overlaying with fiber
You mean the $56b the LNP govt is spending? or the ~$1b the ALP wants to spend to fix what they can?
in your heart of hearts, you know FTTN and HFC are fine for current needs and the additional expense of overlaying with fiber is not worth it in the current economic and budget environment.
The big question for you is, do you actually believe we should be spending billions and many years on something that only fills current needs?
If you do then, then you are pretty much saying we we should only build roads that is just enough capacity for the amount of cars today.. which is absolutely absurd.
In announcing a policy to ditch Malcolm Turnbull's favoured method of broadband delivery entirely, Labor has made a political decision that will play well with large portions of the electorate, who have never been sold on the idea that his decision to pursue fibre to the node (FTTN) was technically or financially prudent.
this is a bold move that hits the government (and particularly the Prime Minister) in a notable weak spot.
However those that have been connected to FTTN already, or who have missed out on the NBN so far in relevant areas, will be back on the path to FTTP under Labor.
Labor's new plan would however put it in direct contradiction with the man currently charged with running the show, former Vodafone Australia boss Bill Morrow.
selling its message will be a big challenge for opposition spokesman for communications Jason Clare, as FTTN Vs FTTP cannot be summed up in a TV news-friendly soundbite.
Well Mr Smith, how about your masthead's owners (Fairfax) help sell the message a wee bit more thoroughly and repeatedly, than from the last Federal election to today.
Still no editorial or opinion in this article about whether the labor policy is more in the national interest than the Federal Coalitions.
Labors FTTH was previously fully costed a point made here refuting the lies provided to you by turnbull entirely!
You just made me spill my tea.
The ALP FttH was not fully costed at all! They had no direct plan for multi dwelling apartment complexes at all.
They had no direct plan for connecting multi tenanted business parks and locations.
To say that the ALP was fully costed then is as much laughable as their $57 billion cap is now!
Fixed that for you.
Hahaha! Thank you.
Google it. Most FTTP growth is concentrated in Asia, VDSL and HFC in Europe and NA.
I guess your not using google correctly then.
http://www.fiercetelecom.com
Why do you make up lies like that?
The Sat system was originally designed to accommodate around 200,000 premises...the LNP expanded that to 400,000.
An apology would be nice...
You're welcome.
It is suggested that Telstra's entry level $60 price will only apply to relatively slow speeds. The price of true high-speed broadband using FTTN will actually be around $85 a month wholesale. That means the retail price will be around $100 a month.
Thanks for that 2007 article Shane.
Today, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
The original plan was to connect 200,000
More lies?
It was 3%. Always was 3% and still is 3%.
It must be a hard sell when you have to tell lies to make up your argument.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
The ability to deliver
leading to
Economy of scale
The ability to deliver
leading to
Economy of scale
That's just as vague as Labor's policy.
More lies?
https://delimiter.com.au/201
In fact Turnbull commented on Labor's plan...
In 2012, when he was Shadow Communications Minister, Malcolm Turnbull said: �There is enough capacity on private satellites already in orbit or scheduled for launch for the NBN to deliver broadband to the 200,000 or so premises in remote Australia without building its own.�
Now go read page 9...
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
I see you've moved on from asking for Labor's policy details.
Since this point appears to be of importance to you, what are the Coalition's plans for gigabit services?
The ability to deliver
Based on how the NBN started, then this is the "theory" behind the ability to deliver vs the actual ability to deliver...?
Again, having a paper on what they want to achieve to win an election is one thing. Actually committing to and successfully putting a paper plan into action is another.
Today, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre. Given the option to pay a fraction of this at the same speed or a similar price for gigabit, I would probably get something in the middle.
Thirdly, which party doubled the number of users that are to be on satellite?
Well to be honest this may actually turn out to be a bad underestimation of the demand on the part of NBNCo in initially.
The number of users covered hasn't changed significantly (AIUI), however, the expected number of users taking up a service has increased dramatically. I seem to recall that the second satellite was primarily there as a backup for the first. If this is the case the problem may not be as bad as feared because the second can be used for additional capacity rather than simply backup (until / unless one fails)
It remains to be seen exactly how the satellite situation plays out. The ISS oversupply issues led to the implementation of the new limits being set for satellite users. It may be that the initial demand profiling is actually correct and this would mean increased limits on the satellite service.
I see you've moved on from asking for Labor's policy details.
I'm happy that they released their policy today. Congratulations to Labor for stepping up to the plate.
Since this point appears to be of importance to you, what are the Coalition's plans for gigabit services?
It can't reduce much because the NBN Co has to make a return. I would prefer that the NBN be reduced in scope or that it be subsidised by the taxpayer to make broadband more affordable in the long term, but no party wants to do that.
Overall Labor has released a pragmatic, fiscally responsible and sensible plan that should be supported.
Those left with substandard broadband in the short term can only blame Turnbull and the Coalition.
I agree, at least it's a start and includes a means to get back on track long term.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
I agree...and that (in my mind) will be a priority over the next year or 2.
That said, their deployment plan is excellent and is probably the only way to get out of the horrific position that Turnbull has put us in...
We certainly need affordable gigabit internet by 2020...
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
Today, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN.
LOL, so 6Mbps and 1000Mbps are equivalent in your mind?
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
The Coalition still hasn't detailed any plan fullstop.
To that end he announced prior to the last election that FTTH would be delivered further and deeper into both the Satellite and Wireless footprints and that this would be done at no additional cost to budget ensuring that the Satellite service was provided to those who live beyond the economic reach of FTTH
That is hard to believe since they could not even deliver FTTH to metro areas on time, delivering FTTH to remote areas was not believable.
Labor is not even spruiking rolling FTTH to remote areas in this election.
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre. Given the option to pay a fraction of this at the same speed or a similar price for gigabit, I would probably get something in the midd
Business connections whom need agreements in place are different to residential users.
Your business likely has a special Businsss type connection where certain SLA' s are to be delivered.
If someone really wants a guaranteed 100MBps at any time of the day under nbn then they would need to fork out $1,750 a month.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
Paying more of course...hell, inflation alone will take its toll in that. But there is also the expectation that over time, more people will use broadband. This is certainly proving true as even the elderly are increasing internet usage at a huge rate.
It must be a hard sell when you have to tell lies to make up your argument.
I'm glad you finally acknowledge that's what you're doing.
More ppl are probably watching TV and on news sites on the internet to catch up with info on the Orlando shooting. Whilst they're watching they'll see the Labor NBN policy news.
No, think of it this way. Bill Shorten is on QandA tonight and knows it's the question the audience has been asking.
Genetic Modified Zealot writes...
Business connections whom need agreements in place are different to residential users
But those agreements (while still important to some) are much less important with a network that doesn't break all the time and has a far more predictable throughput rate.
oday, it costs at least $150 per month wholesale to get 1 Gbps on the NBN.
Incorrect, it costs A$ 17.50 x 1000 = A$ 17,500 wholesale to get 1Gbs on the NBN.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
No party has an answer to that, as the revenue of NBN Co is heavily based on CVC revenue. CVC as we all know is a financial instrument and not a technical instrument. In fact it totally doesn't make any sense for innovative purposes to restrict bandwidth on media that is by nature "unlimited" in bandwidth. That why it is not done anywhere overseas in FTTP roll outs.
But sadly the politicians and NBN Co have not progressed to that higher level of thinking.
Actually committing to and successfully putting a paper plan into action is another.
The ALP were doing that until September 2013. By contrast, the Coalition have failed to fulfil any of the promises of their 2013 broadband policy.
The Coalition still hasn't detailed any plan fullstop.
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
No one is going to pay that much
LOL, you quote someone saying they pay that much then claim that no one is going to pay that much?
fibre-to-the-basement,
Ok, so previously MDUs were in the FTTP footprint under previous policy. Now they are not. Makes sense, though upgrade path for body corp to remediate work to upgrade to FTTP themselves I would hope be in the longer term plans.
LOL, you quote someone saying they pay that much then claim that no one is going to pay that much?
Yes, because people don't have a spare $1500 lying around under their bed.
you quote someone saying they pay that much then claim that no one is going to pay that much?
Ah Irony, thy name is KingForce? :)
https://delimiter.com.au/201
what are the Coalition's plans for gigabit services?
Spend the winter months in another country in the Northern Hemisphere that has GB speeds?
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
Wow, that rivals your backflip about fraudulent RFS the other day, less than half an hour from acknowledging the existence of the ALP policy to pretending it doesn't exist.
Yes, because people don't have a spare $1500 lying around under their bed.
Yet Raoul claims people should pay $10,000 for FOD if they want better than the MTM disaster can provide...
But sadly the politicians and NBN Co have not progressed to that higher level of thinking.
Ever since new age economics calls for not only user pays but super quick repayment of debt we have this ridiculous situation that goods and services are priced out of our reach. They say infrastructure debt is wrong � and that's what's causing the financial crisis everywhere (the German austerity model).
Japan has the right idea (as floated at the G7) � Governments should be spending more on infrastructure to stimulate the economy, increase consumer confidence and get consumers spending. Not much point in spending on high speed internet when we can't afford genuine high speed � just a service inferior to what we already have in lots of ways!
If built has already started then you're stuck with FTTN
But what if the build has not started if your area and there is absolutely no NBN physical activity in your area? In my area (Whyalla) back in September 2013 when the Coalition came to power, NBNCo was to start the planning process of FTTP for Whyalla in March of 2014. But the Liberals had no problem cancelling Whyalla along with half the country of the FTTP build.
Could this not also apply now to areas that are earmarked to get FTTN now/near future but with no physical activity in your area, no build contracts would have been signed off yet. My understanding under Labor's old FTTP all the planning/pre-build activity had to be completed first, then the actual build contracts are issued/signed off last. That's how Turnbull was able to cancel all those planned/up coming FTTP builds. Could Labor not do the same here if they win office???
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
What's next in your conga line of logic?
No plans, no money, no value.
No point.
Apart from a writedown of the NBN ASAP, what do you think the Government of the day should do with NBN Co and the NBN/MTM from here (Kingforce)?
The ALP were doing that until September 2013
No they weren't.
They were failing dismally. The plan on paper was wonderful. The execution of the plan was appalling.
The end result was Malcolm reinventing the policy poorly when the LNP came to power.
If the plan had started well, the execution of the plan went well, the LNP would have had no alternative but to continue.
But because the plan went balls up very quickly, it gave rise to an alternative.
No-one has any plans and that's the scary part.
They got plans plenty, but nobody is capable of stepping up to the plate and see the complete picture.
Now I understand from political perspective, winning the voters, the total picture is rather overwhelming and not really a way to get the vote. But as parties you should have a clear Telecommunication policy. That is not coming forward. That is scary, I agree and not good for Australia.
The sad thing is that NBN Co is unable to deliver commercial world results until the Telecommunication policies and regulations are revamped completely.
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
It will be too early to tell for sure. If you aren't on the 3 year rollout plan you should be ok though.
Merimbula is due to start in H1 2017, with delays I hope no plans have been signed off on, assuming people vote the right way of course.
That's just as vague as Labor's policy.
Nothing vague about deploying access technologies that can actually deliver the speeds which you're referring to.
fraudulent RFS the other day,
Today, on the Coalition's NBN, there are about 40,000 are on a service class zero or an equivalent. That about 2.6% of the fixed line footprint.
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
In September 2013 one third of fibre premises could not order a service from Labor's NBN.
The execution of the plan was appalling.
How so � apart from being nobbled by the LNP ,the plan you are referring to has delivered all the FTTP connections which exist today, has seen the launch of the satellite and fixed wireless services and last, but not least, saw the building of the transit network, POI, FAN, etc...
Now compare that to the LNP who have manged to connect a few tens of thousands to their copper based mess.
But what if the build has not started if your area and there is absolutely no NBN physical activity in your area?
If they have purchased hardware (nodes, fibre cable specific to FTTN � all of which have to be ordered well in advance) they you are locked in.... and FTTN for you.
If they have signed contracts with firms to install FTTN � even if they haven't started � that would cost big money to get out of those contracts � FTTN for you as well.
No one is going to pay that much
And yet businesses do today � you can't deny facts...
It will be too early to tell for sure. If you aren't on the 3 year rollout plan you should be ok though
Actually, anything that won't go RFS in the next 2 years should be okay (it takes about 18 months or just over to go from issuing design instructions to being RFS).
And they could make FTTN workable in the meantime by specifying 10GigE for the back haul for existing builds.
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
I assume, generally speaking, you don't already have FTTN and are not in an area where that is starting soon and you're not in a HFC area.
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
So why are they choosing not to � cue deadening silence....
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
Check out results from real people in Cannington and Doubleview (two of the first "production" areas for FTTN) � the number who can't get connected although sites tell them they can is huge.
Just like politicians claim you are fully employed if you work 20 hours a week.... they also fiddle the NBN stats to their own end (the LNP seem better at twisting stats than Labor � but both can be good when convenient).
By contrast, the Coalition have failed to fulfil any of the promises of their 2013 broadband policy.
Not according to Turnbull on the radio just now. He was spewing lies about how bad this new ALP plan is and how good his MTM is and they have met or exceeded all their goals.
Turnbull conveniently failed to mention that he changed the goal posts so the goals could be met, otherwise his MTM train wreck would be seen as the dismal failure that it is...
Ever since new age economics
Odd isn't?
Politicians all talk innovation, yet they are unable to formulate a complete policy over one (or many portfolio's) which actually contributes to being innovative. The talking about it, but it is only limited to talking about it as a definition. Yet to see the contributing factors that lead to innovation, they are unable to define.
No they weren't.
Yes they were.
They were failing dismally.
Not according to any credible analysis.
The execution of the plan was appalling.
According to...?
If the plan had started well, the execution of the plan went well, the LNP would have had no alternative but to continue.
The LNP plan was based on lies, both about their policy and about the NBN � the reality of the rollout had nothing to do with it.
Why do you make up lies like that?
Whose lieing?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wik
Mike Quigley said the satellite design was "not easy", because the required coverage is about "five per cent of the world's land mass" containing "at least 200,000 premises" spread across "over 7,000 kilometres" of area between Cocos Islands and Norfolk Island
You owe that user an apology!
They were failing dismally.
They really weren't...nor were they succeeding heroically. They were exactly where they should have been, in the startup phase of a massive decade long project to rebuild the nations communications.
Today, on the Coalition's NBN, there are about 40,000 are on a service class zero or an equivalent.
Isn't it amazing that not bothering to rollout FTTP will stop people being put in a status where they're not yet able to order a FTTP service?
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
Please cite your sources.
In September 2013 one third of fibre premises could not order a service from Labor's NBN.
Any other old myths you want to bring out?
But because the plan went balls up very quickly, it gave rise to an alternative.
To follow your line of thinking, what was the alternative?
Wrecking the NBN? The MTM-policy? Or was it simply about serving vested interests?
Please cite your sources.
In the weekly report on NBN Co's website. Been there for ages.
Different from when Labor was in charge. They only reported official stats every three months.
Different from when Labor was in charge. They only reported official stats every three months.
What do you think about the fact the LNP are now reporting once a year?
In the weekly report on NBN Co's website.
Sorry, I thought it was obvious � I'm after credible sources.
Different from Labor which only reported official stats every three months.
I'm sure you're aware that nbn� don't want to report anything at all, including rollout maps and lists.
Wrecking the NBN?
Yes. Exactly that. The policy was failing in the cost estimate. And we all know costs are more of a political football than anything else.
Because the ALP math was wildly wrong in their assessments, the next govt had an easy political alternative. That alternative was "we will spend less cash".
I'm after credible sources.
Those figures match with what Morrow said at estimates. NBN Co would be lying to parliament if those figures were wrong.
on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
LOL � tell that to the people waiting to be serviced from this node � https://delimiter.com.au/2016
and all the opthers like it where the node is not even powered up yet.
They were exactly where they should have been, in the startup phase of a massive decade long project to rebuild the nations communications.
Three months behind schedule on average. If NBN Co at that time said they would enable in January, we planned on April. Mostly we were spot on and were able to do a pre and post marketing campaign within 30 days over each other when an area was activated.
Those figures match with what Morrow said at estimates.
Again, I'm after credible sources.
NBN Co would be lying to parliament if those figures were wrong.
Wow, what a shock that would be.
lying to parliament if those figures were wrong
Something we all agree on � NBN not telling the truth and the whole truth to parliament.
That alternative was "we will spend less cash".
Which went out the window for something that is diabolically worse.
Over 95% on fixed line can order straight away from the Coalition's NBN.
In September 2013 one third of fibre premises could not order a service from Labor's NBN.
I consider that there are pros and cons to both approach. While Coalition wants everyone in RFS to connect, I'd argue it slows down the overall national rollout and reduces revenue opportunities. Labor approach got coverage out nationally faster to early adopters and higher revenue in particular, arguably cheaper, but didn't adequately address the hard 20% in the 18 months. If we didn't have the Telstra constraint again, I'd tend to argue the Labor/NZ approach is superior for a national rollout.
The policy was failing in the cost estimate.
According to...?
Because the ALP math was wildly wrong in their assessments, the next govt had an easy political alternative. That alternative was "we will spend less cash".
If that was their alternative, why did they choose to lie instead?
the next govt had an easy political alternative. That alternative was "we will spend less cash"
And failed at that to � 29.5 Billion was the total they took to the 2013 election. Seems that it is okay for the LNP to just make shit up and at the same time Labor must be held to the highest level of accountability and scrutiny. Or to put it another way, one party lies and the other tells the truth?
Yes. Exactly that.
Do I get you right, that you blame Labor for the fact that the Liberals wrecked the NBN?
This would be new low if that is actually what you mean.
From the Harper Review: good government policy is to benefit all Australians.
Please explain to me, why is wrecking the NBN, good government policy?
Or do we agree that it is actually not policy at all but simply serving vested interests towards certain parties?
The ones that are giving us 35GB download limits with no increase in actual coverage, still 3% of premises.
Yes Labor well and truly fooled everyone on that when they said "next generation" internet.
Why would you trust them again.
When the alternative is LNP � There is sufficient Sat bandwidth existing. No need for anothe sat. 12Mbps is all anyone needs. � MT
Labor came up with the NBN Sat service. Extended the fixed line FTTP footprint to 93%
LNP did not publish the increased Sat utilisation, but added many towns and said the total was unchanged. Still using Eleventy's calculator
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
At least on the Labors plan, gigabit is technically possible. 4 gigabit is technically possible on Labors FTTP plan.
Libs plan it is impossible, without doing another rollout, costing how many more billions? And still won't be the fibre we inevitably need in the future.
And failed at that to � 29.5 Billion was the total they took to the 2013 election. Seems that it is okay for the LNP to just make shit up and at the same time Labor must be held to the highest level of accountability and scrutiny. Or to put it another way, one party lies and the other tells the truth?
No. Both parties lie. One is detrimental to the countries interests, the other is mediocre and union-driven...
I see Fifield has attempted to play the "deceit" card, and not allowed his "critique" of Labor's plan to be called into question... by cutting off the journalists. Hopefully this policy will give a good swing against the "Noambition" party.
What do you think about the fact the LNP are now reporting once a year?
It's worse than that � they don't want to publish the reports at all, instead they only want to provide them to RSPs (who are controlled by gag orders).
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
We have clients paying more than that for under 10Mbps, I guarantee they would love to pay less for more, as would everyone.
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre
The irony of this should not be lost on us all � remember the cost of broadband every time the LNP says that they are the party for small business.
It's worse than that � they don't want to publish the reports at all, instead they only want to provide them to RSPs (who are controlled by gag orders).
NBNco has gone mafia style.
No one is going to pay that much and yet Labor's plan relies on people voluntarily paying more over the long term.
Actually it relies on people paying more for higher speeds and larger data quotas. As network speeds increase AVC prices fall and as network data usage increases CVC prices fall.
Actually it relies on people paying more for higher speeds and larger data quotas. As network speeds increase AVC prices fall and as network data usage increases CVC prices fall.
Yep � I don't think KIngForce understood this when I said economy of scale either...
The Sat system was originally designed to accommodate around 200,000 premises...the LNP expanded that to 400,000.
We've had this one before but let's do it again ...
Fifield says ...
nbn's high-capacity satellites will ultimately cover more than 400,000 homes ...
http://www.minister.com
The NBNCo corporate plan 2010 on page 77 says ...
Serve the remaining 7% of premises (1 million) by next generation wireless and satellite technologies, including developing a Satellite First Release solution.
... simple arithmetic will tell you that's ~428,000 covered by satellite.
You're welcome.
Extended the fixed line FTTP footprint to 93%
I just saw that stated on the news, but Labor now says that is not possible to do 93% and can only do 39%.
Why is that?
Did they have their digits messed up?
How does one find out if their house is in the 39% that will get fibre to the premise?
If construction is not planned to start prior to FY2017 you will likely get FttP if Labor are elected. There are no guarantees though.
I just saw that stated on the news,
They state a lot ... the news.
On twitter it was mentioned that a reporter of Sydney 702 stated today that FTTH will shift electricity costs onto home owners. You got some bright lights working in our media industry.
On twitter it was mentioned that a reporter of Sydney 702 stated today that FTTH will shift electricity costs onto home owners
I'm waiting for the bright spark to claim that Fibre is hollow and therefore will cause our homes to flood...
If they have purchased hardware (nodes, fibre cable specific to FTTN � all of which have to be ordered well in advance) they you are locked in.... and FTTN for you.
If they have signed contracts with firms to install FTTN � even if they haven't started � that would cost big money to get out of those contracts � FTTN for you as well.
But wouldn't that also have applied to FTTP under Labor in September 2013?? Hardware/fibre cables etc all specific to FTTP and ordered well in advance for builds to start/plan within 12 months of the Liberals taking office in September 2013. Yet they (Turnbull) killed off everything FTTP related except areas that had actually physically started.
I remember here on Whirlpool back in September 2013 and just after the election just about everyone here was saying that FTTP builds planned in the next 12 months would be safe, and even 3 year planned builds had a fair chance of being safe. Yet Turnbull canned all FTTP builds that weren't "chained down" or had physically started.
On twitter it was mentioned that a reporter of Sydney 702 stated today that FTTH will shift electricity costs onto home owners. You got some bright lights working in our media industry.
LOL oh dear.
You have to wonder what VDSL modems run on?
Kerosene or paraffin, Vodka or magic.
:0>
LOL oh dear.
You have to wonder what VDSL modems run on?
Kerosene or paraffin, Vodka or magic.
Unfortunately for the aging population that only uses their phone, this appears to be true. Under FTTP � they see an NTD which needs to be plugged into their own power. Currently, their phone is generally powered by the network. They don't understand what FTTN means...
If construction is not planned to start prior to FY2017 you will likely get FttP if Labor are elected. There are no guarantees though.
I'm in an area where construction won't start until then but have Telstra HFC. I gather that this Labor mention of FttP will likely be for areas without HFC. I'd sort of read some conflicting stuff paraphrasing as "if you were going to get HFC that won't change". Is that everyone's understanding as well?
... simple arithmetic will tell you that's ~428,000 covered by satellite.
I thought that satellite was originally intended for around 3% of premises.
Since around 9 million premises were intended to be covered, that would be about 270,000 premises.
Labor still hasn't detailed any plan to make gigabit speeds affordable.
Have the Libs? Why is the onus only on Labor?
Have the Libs? Why is the onus only on Labor?
The best way to make gigabit available is to make fibre available.
They were failing dismally. The plan on paper was wonderful. The execution of the plan was appalling.
Have you asked yourself why this happened? Lets ignore the asbestos delay (it would have been managed � at Telstras cost).
Consider the political climate at the time. This was definitely a factor in the deployment delays that are down to the prime contractors.
It has been said that the rollout rate proposed under the original plan were not achievable.
Consider this � on the 16/07/15 the rolling quarterly (13 week) weekly average for brownfield FttP peaked at 12267. This was ~45% of the required run rate forecast to be reach by the 2012 CP in FY2015. In a rollout where the focus had shifted almost entirely to FttN and HFC.
Edit: It could have been done but never got the chance.
I just saw that stated on the news, but Labor now says that is not possible to do 93% and can only do 39%.
Are you new here?
Is your question serious?
The LNP signed contracts for the HFC networks and fttn has already been built/there are contracts signed for this as well.
Instead of the original 93%, it's now (about):
20% FTTN
34% HFC
39% FTTP
7% fixed wireless/satellites
damn chose a good day to be really busy..
refresh and 10 pages to read sigh
Since around 9 million premises were intended to be covered, that would be about 270,000 premises.
I quoted from the 2010 corporate plan. I'll do it again, from Exhibit 1-7 on page 33 under "coverage" ...
13 million premises covered by FY2021, 93% by the Fibre Network (12 million), 7% by the Wireless Network or the Satellite Network.
The NBNCo says 13 million premises. I don't know where you get 9 million from. I'll take the NBNCo's number over yours.
Are you new here?
Is your question serious?
Go easy on the poster, ABC news reporter completely ballsed up his summary of the 39% by describing it as though Federal Labor was only going to cover 39% of the whole of Australia with NBN Services, when he should have tied in the 39% with the increased from up to 20% FTTP % of the MTM mix.
At our head office we pay $1500 a month retail for 100/100 fibre
Please keep in mind, I only brought this up to put into context that business will pay a premium where it is required for the operation of the business and because I think the revenue potential here is not discussed much in the public forums. By no means is this a comparison to NBN consumer services, this has a 99.99% uptime SLA and 1:1 contention. Three years ago, when this service was unavailable, we paid the same for 10/10. In three years time it should be 1000/1000. That won't happen with the MTM.
I believe in equity, I'm ok wih waiting while those under serviced get fibre, just get us all there eventually or a valid alternative.
Why is that?
Basically, Labor's original plan (of 93% FTTP � from back when they were in govt) is no longer possible due to the MTM rollout progress, so what they're doing is increasing the FTTP footprint � as it stands it's going to about about 19%, they want to increase it to 39%.
Meaning more people will have delicious fiber and proper bowel movements.
simple arithmetic will tell you that's ~428,000 covered by satellite
The issue is the expected take-up. Under the original Corporate Plan FW and sat are lumped together and takeup was expected to be very low (around 13% in FY2015 to ~24% in FY2021)
FW takeup is currently ~29%, and expected demand for the LTSS is expected to be much higher than initially forecast.
The issue is the expected take-up.
The figure for take up in the 2010 corporate plan was 200,000 (page 71). I think this is the number people are wrongly using as the number of premises covered.
The 2015 corporate plan (section 5.3) has a satellite take up figure for 2018 of 135,000. I don't know if there's a later figure.
I'm in an area where construction won't start until then but have Telstra HFC.
You are almost certainly going to get HFC judging by the policy release.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét