The ADA is 7LEG-01, will have a look after work to see what the node says.
Thanks
The ADA is 7LEG-01,
that is the SAM, the actual ADA is the one with the next number like 7LEG-01-01
which I now see that none are listed I am going to guess around 10 to 15 nodes in total
looks like the data from nbn� is a bit behind if nodes are currently being planted
maybe further discussion needs to be moved to the Tasmania thread
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2425210&p=54
Thanks, will do
We've just had a Testra tech do some upgrades on our SDSL lines here at work and I was quizzing him about the FTTN which is just starting to go in our area at home.
He reckons the nodes they've installed and populated are suffering chronic congestion in peak hours and it is absolutely disgraceful. Talking download speeds at peak being under 1 Mbit/s at best per user.
Anyone had any experience with this? Not looking forward to it if that's the case.
He reckons the nodes they've installed and populated are suffering chronic congestion in peak hours and it is absolutely disgraceful. Talking download speeds at peak being under 1 Mbit/s at best per user
another forum reports on such issues and people are very angry about the lack of performance with fibre to the node.
looks like the data from nbn� is a bit behind if nodes are currently being planted
With NBN having changed to not releasing info' until it's less than 6 months to RFS, it means a lot of people will be unable to check what they will get and when, until it's "too late".
people will be unable to check what they will get and when, until it's "too late".
http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/rollout/list
try this web site
He reckons the nodes they've installed and populated are suffering chronic congestion in peak hours and it is absolutely disgraceful. Talking download speeds at peak being under 1 Mbit/s at best per user.
It may be too many users.
http://blog.jxeeno.com/poor-
2000 mbps divided by 350+ users during peak usage equals under 6 mbps per user, less for many if Netflix etc are prioritised. But it shouldn't get down to one mbps, that is odd.
2000 mbps divided by 350+
There is a pic over in the main MTM thread I think, that shows Mitch at a fully populated 384 connection node that only has 1 fibre pair active, so that is upto 384 connections on One 1Gbps link, so we better halve the results of those calculations
here is the pic
https://11217-presscdn-0-50-
There is a pic over in the main MTM thread I think, that shows Mitch at a fully populated 384 connection node that only has 1 fibre pair active, so that is upto 384 connections on One 1Gbps link, so we better halve the results of those calculations
Just because the DSLAM is populated with cards, doesn't mean there are active users on all of them (and there would be this earlyin the deployment).
It also doesn't mean that NBN won't add a second fibre when the utilisation on the first one exceeds some threshold. We have no idea if/when this will happen, but it COULD well happen.
It would be good to get some information on the utilisation of the fibre backhaul from the node for a given number of users, but I doubt this information will ever make it into the public domain in any form.
Has anyone already discussed the 'Waiving of the CSG (Customer Service Guarantee' ?
I was looking at switching my Home ADSL from iiNet to TPG and as part of the signup process was asked to agree to waiving the CSG. Which means I am giving away my rights.
Is this something to be concerned about, and are all the providers making this a requirment or just TPG?
CSG: Above monthly charge and setup pricing is based on customers agreeing to waive the Customer Service Guarantee (CSG). For more information please contact TPG Sales on 13 14 23.
waiving the CSG
There is a thread on the topic:
/archive/1810045
It's not just TPG:
http://whirlpool.net.au/wiki/iinet_thread
Just because the DSLAM is populated with cards, doesn't mean there are active users on all of them (and there would be this earlyin the deployment).
Would you install all the cards for 384 connections if you were onyl going to be using 200 connections total?
The nodes are installed with no cards in them, apart from the power supply module
From memory all pics of nodes till this one showed both fibre links installed, even if they were only using one.
nbn� execs have said in Senate Hearings, that they have installed 2 fibre links in each node, but had only activated one
All the fibre modules seem to be installed into the fibre card in that node.
The cost of going back and terminating the extra 2 fibres for the second link at a later date would far exceed the cost of doing them on the initial install. I mean, another truck roll, Bill's favourite cost measure, and to set up the splice equipment again, versus setting it up once and doing the needed splices on the initial visit.
Surely they are not limiting bandwidth at a physical level then doing physical upgrades at a leter date due to congestion?
But that may very well seem now to be what is happening, from reports in other treads about the nodes themselves
Is this something to be concerned about, and are all the providers making this a requirment or just TPG?
It depends on exactly what the waiver applies to � some providers make you sign a waiver for installation, in case NBNCo/nbn� fail to install within the target timeframe after connection request. Others always have waivers for their VOIP service, due to the fact that its successful operation is always dependent on the underlying internet connection.
The CSG only applies to voice services and so the only NBN related services that can have CSG are voice services delivered over Uni-V ports on FTTP.
The thread is closed so no more conversation can be add.. wonder if I should create a new thread referencing the old one?
The thread is 4 years old.. it doesn't refer to the NBN, but just voip.. though it looks like a continuation..
I First heard about it from TPG, but here is a less horrible (Giving away less rights with optus)
From Optus website. � http://www.optus.com.au/shop/
CUSTOMER SERVICE GUARANTEE & MASS SERVICE DISRUPTIONS/EXEMPTIONS
The Customer Service Guarantee (CSG) is a set of performance standards that we must meet when we provide Fixed Telephony services to our Residential and Small Business customers (with up to 5 fixed telephony services).
WHAT DOES THE CSG COVER?
The Customer Service Guarantee (CSG) Standard specifies timeframes for the connection of fixed telephony services, the repair of listed fixed telephony faults and the attendance of related appointments. Some enhanced calling features are also covered under CSG such as call waiting, call forwarding, customer controlled call barring, calling number display and blocking.
The Customer Service Guarantee doesn't apply to:
Data products (e.g. internet services)
Customer equipment or cabling
Mobile services
Satellite services
customers who have greater than 5 standard telephone services
TV services (such as Optus TV with Fetch)
WHAT HAPPENS IF THE CSG IS NOT MET?
The CSG Standard requires us to provide you with financial compensation when these standards are not met, unless specific exemption criteria apply.
HOW DO I KNOW WHEN THE CSG DOESN'T APPLY?
Here are some situations when you wouldn�t be covered by the CSG:
While waiting for your regular service to be connected or repaired you accept an alternative temporary service that�s been offered to you
If you decline the alternative temporary service that�s been offered while waiting for your regular service to be connected or repaired
Where delays are due to circumstances outside our control and a Mass Service Disruption has been declared for services in your area
When you�ve requested to port or transfer your Standard Telephone Service from another carriage service provider that you�re connected with over to us. This would fall under the regular timeframes of porting your service
If you can activate the Enhanced Call Handling Features from your telephone handset or equipment
If we have evidence to support that you might be unable or unwilling to pay for connection and use of the service or if you were disconnected for non-payment of a charge and there�s been no resolution or agreement reached for the matter
If we need to do maintenance or upgrades to a facility and have provided notice that we need to withdraw your service(s)
If you�ve not accepted an appointment offered by us
If you miss an appointment that�s related to the connection or repair or fail to keep an appointment with us without giving us at least 24 hours� notice
If you refuse our staff or contractor reasonable access to your premises.
DO I NEED TO APPLY FOR CSG COMPENSATION?
If you're eligible for CSG, it will be applied automatically to your bill as a credit once the issue has been resolved. It's important to note that sometimes CSG assessments can take up to 16 weeks to be completed.
Compensation can only be applied after the issue has been resolved and an assessment has determined that CSG compensation is payable. If, after this time, you feel that you may be eligible for CSG compensation and it hasn't been applied or an exemption has been declared, then please contact us on 133 937.
WHEN DO EXEMPTIONS APPLY?
Under specific circumstances, we can claim exemptions from the CSG Standard. This most often occurs when our capacity to meet the CSG Standard for a large number of services is effected by circumstances beyond our control, such as extreme weather conditions. In such circumstances Optus may claim a Mass Service Disruption.
HOW DO I KNOW IF A MASS EXEMPTION APPLIES TO MY AREA?
Optus will advise customers of Mass Services Disruptions via our Mass Service Disruptions website and through major newspapers.
LEARN MORE...
The Australian Communications & Media Authority website (ACMA) provides detailed information on what services are covered by the CSG, time frames for services (eg. repairing a service difficulty) and what compensation is available.
To find out more about CSG or to read the CSG Standard, please visit the ACMA website.
See here for info on Disasters, Emergency Alerts & Mass Service Disruptions.
OUTAGES
You can visit our service & network status page to check for any known outages or service disruptions to our Mobile, Broadband and Fixed Phone networks in your local area.
Just enter your city/suburb name to stay up-to-date on any planned repairs, maintenance or outages in your area.
Would you install all the cards for 384 connections if you were onyl going to be using 200 connections total?
Depends on forecast number of connections I guess and the probability of exceeding that compared to the cost of adding more later. I don't know what NBN do, but in most companies they'd probably only put in what they need at the time (plus reasonable estimated requirements for next 12 months perhaps) and add more as they needed them.
From memory all pics of nodes till this one showed both fibre links installed, even if they were only using one.
Don't know, haven't really been paying close attention to the pics to notice.
The cost of going back and terminating the extra 2 fibres for the second link at a later date would far exceed the cost of doing them on the initial install. I mean, another truck roll, Bill's favourite cost measure, and to set up the splice equipment again, versus setting it up once and doing the needed splices on the initial visit.
I definitely agree on that. Even if it's not turned up, makes sense to have it terminated at the same time.
But that may very well seem now to be what is happening, from reports in other treads about the nodes themselves
It is so hard to know and get any correct information, we may never know for certain.
It is so hard to know and get any correct information, we may never know for certain.
oh I agree, but if you were doing a project that is in the public domain, there was a lot of "misinformation" around, wouldn't you do your best to dispel or limit it by releasing proper documentation with regards to guildlines on how the equipment was being installed, rather just keeping stumm and letting "rumours" run wild? Or even saying contradictory things at different public fora
Well that is unless a fair percentage are true. And just saying "that is not accurate", without saying why it is not accurate does not count, yet that is all we seem to get from nbn�
only has 1 fibre pair active,
The nodes installed on2BLT -07 have only 1 fibre pair. I actually saw about 5 nodes being done.
The nodes installed on2BLT -07 have only 1 fibre pair. I actually saw about 5 nodes being done.
thanks Colin
oh dear :(
maybe we have been to critical of RSPs in node areas?
why would they need more? greenfields OLTs run on one fibre pair and host up to 8 times the services a DSLAM can.
if more fibre is needed, more will be installed, that need could be years away.
Just because the DSLAM is populated with cards, doesn't mean there are active users on all of them
Yep, but no...
Not sure of your telecommutes background, but a DSLAM fitted with a few or wholly fitted out line cards, in the overall situation, isn't much different cost wise?
Would you install all the cards for 384 connections if you were onyl going to be using 200 connections total?
Line cards? Wouldn't blink, extra 1/10G links, hmmmmm
I haven't laid eyes on the nbn transit network,
have you looked at the design documents for the network?
The ones that include the add ons to permit the nodes to connect to the FAN?
also remember that every node is a DSLAM
they are currently using 1 Gbps links to each node
These can have the module changed to 10 Gbps or they can connect more 1 Gbps links
The nodes connect to the AAS (Access Aggregation Switch) which has been added to the FAN to enable connection of teh nodes compared to a straight GPON to teh premises build
Section 2.4 of the Network Design rules shows the Copper Access Domain it all
Four fibres, but supporting two "circuits" though doesn't it? ie Separate uplink and downlink fibres per "circuit".
I'll have to jump in here, it's seriously not about the extra fibres, remember cucumber 101 from a few pages back?
Line cards? Wouldn't blink, extra 1/10G links, hmmmmm
apparently the 10 Gbps modules are only around $300 dollars, the fibre is the same, they plug into the card in the chassis, it has slots for 4 modules
I'll have to jump in here, it's seriously not about the extra fibres, remember cucumber 101 from a few pages back?
how about you read the network design docs, you might be enlightened
AAS
Don't quote me, but the AAS gear does a lot more than make 10 x 1 G links into 10G... Just saying. there is a shit-load more to than it than JUST that, even I know that.
TRAFFIC is what it's all about, transport/L2 is a different ball game.
Don't get the two mixed up, way different economics..
apparently the 10 Gbps modules are only around $300 dollars
you and me might do it for $300 buckos, but it simply isn't an eBay equation.
apparently the 10 Gbps modules are only around $300 dollars
I'll have to disagree with gpon on this one?
NNI 1000BaseLX Activation $1,000.00
NNI 10GBaseLR Activation $5,000.00
page 10, current NBN price list?
also, nobody has overlooked restoration time
Wow, someone in the real world....
One of the great engineering feats is the "aftermath". How the product performs? What it was supposedly going to do, what it did, and how we prolonged it's existence?
By jeepers, some of you should study wireless communications, 10G links, good luck?
One of the great engineering feats is the "aftermath". How the product performs? What it was supposedly going to do, what it did, and how we prolonged it's existence?
Not to mention software upgrades and configuration changes � which, by the way, are going really well for Telstra at the moment :(
I'll have to disagree with gpon on this one
NBN are using the AL nant-e line cards which support up to 2 bidirectional 10 GBE links, currently my sources say that 2 of the fibres are currently unused and the 2 that are active are only using 1 GBE sfp modules.
This equates to 6.5 mbps of dedicated minimum bandwidth per VDSL2 port on a 192 port node!
Considering the cost difference between 10 GBE and 1 GBE sfp modules is around 200-300 dollars this is inexcusable, end to end they are only saving about 40 million dollars over 30,000 nodes.
Not to mention software upgrades and configuration changes � which, by the way, are going really well for Telstra at the moment
According to my info, There's two things behind those outages, "finger trouble" and Ericsson system failures.
you and me might do it for $300 buckos, but it simply isn't an eBay equation.
I am only quoting GPON on that price
Considering the cost difference between 10 GBE and 1 GBE sfp modules is around 200-300 dollars
It's seriously not just about the cost of the interface on the DSLAM sub-rack out in suburbia.
It's seriously not just about the cost of the interface on the DSLAM sub-rack out in suburbia.
No it isnt, the ~$40 Mil number includes the 2x 10 GBE SFP modules at the POI which also support 10 GBE SFP's � AL 20km range 10 GBE SFP's are really cheap now and all the AL gear used by nbn E2E support 1-10 GBE SFP modules.
I'll have to jump in here, it's seriously not about the extra fibres, remember cucumber 101 from a few pages back?
Not sure if I am reading the forum correctly.
They say each node has a 1 Gigabit per second fibre input line, so that in my case with 309 premises, if all use the internet at once it drops to download of 1000,bps/390 = 3.24 mbps!
Where as with fibre to the premises, each house gets a 1 gigabits per second input line.
Where as with fibre to the premises, each house gets a 1 gigabits per second input line.
I think the magic figure is closer to 80Mbps with GPON equipment..
They say each node has a 1 Gigabit per second fibre input line, so that in my case with 309 premises, if all use the internet at once it drops to download of 1000,bps/390 = 3.24 mbps!
That assumes all 309 ports are in use and at max capacity but generally yes � I prefer to call it "minimum guaranteed bandwidth". Most nodes are 192 port so the "minimum guaranteed bandwidth" is 6.5/6.5Mbps.
Where as with fibre to the premises, each house gets a 1 gigabits per second input line.
FTTP as installed in Aus is 2.5/1.25Gbps shared between 32 "ports" giving us a "minimum guaranteed bandwidth" of 78/39 Mbps � it's a pretty start difference!
I think the magic figure is closer to 80Mbps with GPON equipment..
the line IS capable of I Gbps but if it is used to capacity on the splits (under teh original design rules), then it would limit each premises to 80 Mbps, that is with everyone selecting a 100/40 plan and using it to capacity all the time
I would rather labor pursue FTTdp over FTTP , its faster to rollout and delivers ftth like speeds
its faster to rollout
Hmmm � I doubt that.
delivers ftth like speeds
Err yes � well nearly yesterdays FTTP speeds � as long as the sun and the moon stay in line.
Err yes � well nearly yesterdays FTTP speeds � as long as the sun and the moon stay in line.
its capable of delivering 1gbps, under the current top standard which is G.Fast @106Mhz
https://www.alcatel-lucent.com/solutions/g.fast
Plus is fully upgradable to FTTH
I would rather labor pursue FTTdp over FTTP , its faster to rollout and delivers ftth like speeds
What about the fibre network architecture that sits behind FTTdp?
Everyone is focussing on the cost reductions of "skinny fibre" and completely overlooking the decrease in in flexibility and adaptability of the fibre network.
Skinny fibre isn't really new, in fact didn't the Corning guy say it is using fibre that was already used in the original FTTP architecture but differently?
I would accept FTTdp as long as the network architecture/flexibility of the original design is maintained, is is a 50 year plus investment after all.
is is a 50 year plus investment after all
It really really isn't anymore. It's a 10-15 year investment now.
It really really isn't anymore. It's a 10-15 year investment now.
fibre is 10 to 15? what will replace it in bandwidth capability?
fibre is 10 to 15? what will replace it in bandwidth capability?
Wireless, its getting faster, and each evolution brings more capacity
Wireless
And we're back to this old horse. Learn Physics and then you'll know why you are wrong.
And we're back to this old horse. Learn Physics and then you'll know why you are wrong.
Take a look at 5G
Wireless, its getting faster, and each evolution brings more capacity
I am sorry, but wireless can never replace fibre for fixed locations.
There are some laws of physics that cannot be overcome 1 fibre can carry more data than the entire radio spectrum.
Sure radio is carrying more and more data, but it also has more and more users. For it to be a total replacement for fibre you would need radio cell at about 5 metre intervals to that you can feed enough data to each receiver and not have problems with spectrum sharing and what feeds all those radio base stations?
FIBRE
Ever seen wi-fi congestion in the suburbs due to all the base stations interfering with each other? that highlights a problem with radio, it is a shared spectrum. Ever been using data on your phone when out an about and lost data connectivity? another problem with shared spectrum resources
Fibre does not suffer these problems and never will
Take a look at 5G
and 5 G is a device that can seemlessly hand off from cell to wi-fi bases.
It needs more and more Base stations, all of which need a fibre link to supply the needed speeds
Take a look at 5G
Take a look at XG-PON, that's not even close to the limit of fiber. The current record is somewhere around 1Pbps or 1,000,000 GBps and that's still not the upper limit of fiber.
Take a look at 5G
Bahahahahahha. Look at the ABS stats for total traffic carried by wireless and fixed line broadband. 6.5 million fixed line connections, mostly ADSL, currently carry 14 times as much traffic as 26 million mobile broadband connections, and the growth trends have been remarkably consistent for the past 4 years.
And that's before we consider that the cost of data on fixed line is 1-2 orders of magnitude lower, or that there isn't enough spectrum for any LTE derivatives to deliver equivalent bandwidth without blanketing every built up area with cells. People throw a shitfit if you want to put a mobile phone tower with cooee of their house now, what do you think they're going to do if you want to put one on block?
Take a look at 5G
Yes it is exciting and fast but there is still not enough available RF bandwidth and there never will be. Never, as our demand for bandwidth is ever increasing, our population is ever increasing and the available and usable RF spectrum is finite.
5G
I know, lets to FTT5GdP. It's much the same as FTTdP, but instead of using the copper for the lead in, it uses 5G. Totally bypasses Telstra copper and will give us some super fast tail speeds whilst only sharing the 5G cell between a handful of users each. Also has the added benefit of 5G roaming and handoff between "AP's" built in, so your mobile phone should be able to roam the whole country on NBN 5G wifi !
;)
Wireless, its getting faster, and each evolution brings more capacity
LOL, you can't be that serious eh?
Wireless is crap, as it can't gaurantee latency. One second your 10ms ping, next your 100ms or more fluctuating like a yo-yo. Add in more signals on the same frequency, next everyone is congested. Just like 3g, 4g.
Doesn't matter what 5g is, it can't defy the laws of physics. I'd stick to ADSL2+ if I was forced to use wi-crap.
Fixed line fibre trumps all.
Wireless is crap
I disagree, wireless has it's uses, just not as a national broadband solution.
I disagree, wireless has it's uses, just not as a national broadband solution.
Sure it has it uses.
But its still crap. I run cat5e ethernet to all my rooms. All my devices are connected to ethernet.
Only the misses mobile devices are using Wi-Fi for convenience. Just the other day I tried transferring some files via Wifi, 4MB per second. Cancelled the transfer. Hooked up the gigabit ethernet, 95MB per second.
Try watching streaming on the samsung TV via Wifi, buffering and drop outs. Hookup the ethernet as a permanent solution, all problems disappear.
At the end of the day, where you have an option to use a fixed line, its just far superior in speed, reliability, latency, throughput, no contention, no disruption and gauranteed level of service.
Wi-Fi is the last option in my home, it has no place for fixed devices where an ethernet port is available. BTW alot of my collegues are running ethernet over power. Says alot about Wi-Fi, even though they all have wifi at home.
Same argument extends to Mobile (3g,4g,5g), its crap as a main everyday Internet service. Its only good for checking things when your out and about.
It really really isn't anymore. It's a 10-15 year investment now.
Yes it is, I was talking about the LDN and DFN not the access network.
FTTdp might be a 10-15 year proposition but we bloody well better make sure the network architecture that is built to support has a much longer useful life than that.
Take a look at 5G
You should take your own advice.
Are FTTN nodes close to pillars pretty much all they have to visibly do these days for FTTN? The FTTP boxes seemed more frequent e.g. a few per street
The Roxburgh Park rollout (FTTN) appears to be considerably slower then the roll out of FTTP in Mill Park.
That's being a bit harsh on the Roxburgh techs ... just cos the Mill Park guys simply have it easier with a single tech and all new kit. /s
Hey does anyone have any evidence to support the Coalition's "claim" that FTTN rollouts are quicker than FTTP.
Yes. From page 5 of the Optus HFC leak earlier this year, they had a comparison of options to deal with the no fit for purpose Optus HFC: http://i.imgur.com/9UOQAAm.png
The period covered is 3 years from 2019 to 2022.
They had FTTP taking an additional 24 months to complete.
FTTN and FTTdp taking 20 months to complete.
That's being a bit harsh on the Roxburgh techs ... just cos the Mill Park guys simply have it easier with a single tech and all new kit. /s
Lol.... At 1 to 3 months to build each node, the boys and girls better get cracking to have it all done by the January 17 deadline.
Well got a modem, now we play the waiting game for a connection date. Anyone know what a rough wait time for connection in Canberra is? Been a week and heard nothing.
Been a week and heard nothing.
Been nearly a month this way at Caboolture Qld since my FTTN modem arrived. Not a peep from TPG yet
Have you plugged it in?
Not a peep from TPG yet
That's the mob that reverted to the 1988 map of Australia � Tassie slipped off the edge of the Flat Earth
That assumes all 309 ports are in use and at max capacity but generally yes � I prefer to call it "minimum guaranteed bandwidth". Most nodes are 192 port so the "minimum guaranteed bandwidth" is 6.5/6.5Mbps.
I kind of glad that around 60% of the properties near me are retirees.
But that could change rapidly of course!
I kind of glad that around 60% of the properties near me are retirees.
Lol as a retiree I am glad that I have most of the day to do my stuff and hope to stream movies very soon. As they say on Game of Thrones 'Winter is coming' . My node should be active before the first day of winter.
Haha! Most of the ones around us are computer illiterate, which is fairly handy. A few emails, browse a bit of sag porn, stuff like that. No gaming or netflix or anything,
How crap is the wireless LAN on the Huwei modem supplied by TPG.
Was getting 85-90Mbs on Ethernet, but could "only" manage 55Mbs on wireless.
Set up my ASUS AC68U in Bridge mode, and got whopping 94Mps � even better than my ethernet (which is hampered by being a EoP adaptor).
There's your problem!
But its NBN approved with approved version of firmware, NBN still refuse to provide a list of supported modems.
But its NBN approved with approved version of firmware, NBN still refuse to provide a list of supported modems.
That's what happens when the ISP's are put in charge of supplying CPE, they give you the cheapest nastiest PoS they can get away with!
But its NBN approved with approved version of firmware, NBN still refuse to provide a list of supported modems.
the only part of the unit that nbn� are concerned with is the actual modem section, they couldn't care 2 hoots about the router and the enternet or wi-fi side.
all they want to know is
"does the modem meet the specifications that we laid down and support the options to the standard that we have mandated"
Wow just wow
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2480404&p=2#r21
27 dropouts a day, good thing only 5 a day is acceptable so there is obviously a fault with his connection aye... apparently not since he says after Exetel logged the fault NBN "determined that the service is within specifications" and suggests he reconfigure the modem.
Good thing he is using an ISP supplied (which Exetel say they have registered) modem so has no problem getting a fault resolved.....
"does the modem meet the specifications that we laid down and support the options to the standard that we have mandated"
If it doesn't meet those specifications then your modem doesn't sync successfully and your port gets locked.
If it doesn't meet those specifications then your modem doesn't sync successfully and your port gets locked.
which is correct and never in doubt, (but some unapproved modems can meet all teh specs and do synch quite happily )
but the part of the discussion leading up to this was about the combined modem/router and how most of the router sections are pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Most ofr instance only offer wireless N
nbn� do not care about the router side was all I was saying.
nbn� do not care about the router side was all I was saying.
Definitely not. NBN have officially palmed it off as "not our problem" and it's up to the RSP to sort out. We should all remember that MT told us that a new VDSL modem would only be $50 !
most of the router sections are pretty underwhelming
This is a fairly good assumption for most of the resi/soho stuff out there. Yet another reason that FTTP is superior.
We should all remember that MT told us that a new VDSL modem would only be $50 !
be nice if I could get a nbn� registered modem only, no router section, especially as some RSPs are supplying unbridgeable combo units.
looks like people will have to go the RSP supplied one and if that is not bridgeable, the purchase a compatible bridgeable unit to use with their won router setup to avoid the double nat problems. With the RSP unit as a backup if the connection goes "bad" so you can claim it is also bad when using the RSP unit to try and get a rectification of the fault
most of the router sections are pretty underwhelming to say the least.
Yes, they are very underwhelming for residential customers.
For business customers, they are rock bottom to say the least. Probably small businesses could manage, but large businesses or businesses that are part of a chain of branches or a franchise chain have no choice with RSPs.
I'm building a house. Builders providing NBN provision by putting cat6 data points in the house and NBN enclosure in the garage.
Is this correct?
What if I get FTTN not FTTP?
The builder should know what is being installed. Greenfields (ie. new developments) over a certain size are FTTP (mandated).
Have a look at the NBN map, your area might be on it.
The builder should know what is being installed. Greenfields (ie. new developments) over a certain size are FTTP (mandated).
Have a look at the NBN map, your area might be on it.
No they are putting in provision for future NBN. I do not know what is coming since it's a new development. It's not even on the maps yet. NBNco are unsure too.
No they are putting in provision for future NBN. I do not know what is coming since it's a new development. It's not even on the maps yet. NBNco are unsure too.
When building a new house your internal wiring should be the same no matter what NBN type.
Plan for a NTD (of some description) in the garage or somewhere near the street and run CAT-6 to everywhere in the house from that point. Then get the NBN FTTP NTD or first copper socket installed at that point and insert router/modem of choice.
We all know of the talk about G.fast for FTTB and FTTN, but what about the newer VDSL2 profile 35b (annex Q) approved by the ITU last year? As I understand it, it offers up to 200Mbps over 500 metres of copper, and up to 500Mbps over 250 metres of copper. Plus it's a product that NBN's main supplier Alcatel-Lucent is producing in the mainstream.
I guess the main issue would be consumer equipment (modems). I can't seem to find any equipment (literally) that offers this for some reason, but it seems like something that could be deployed right now rather than waiting for G.fast to be finalised.
(Urgh, these DSL standards are so dumb why can't we just use fibre and give everyone a super fast last mile connection).
(Urgh, these DSL standards are so dumb why can't we just use fibre and give everyone a super fast last mile connection).
Because FTTN is cheaper, faster and sooner (not), according to Tony Abbott (See The Project video about NBN).
okay so this other fttnabcd or whatever its called..will those of us on fttn get upgraded to that?
okay so this other fttnabcd or whatever its called..will those of us on fttn get upgraded to that?
No. There is no way to upgrade FTTN � it can only be replaced.
There is no way to upgrade FTTN
Not exactly true, NBN Co are currently deploying VDSL 2, which can be upgraded to G.fast etc. but still requires new hardware.
Not exactly true, NBN Co are currently deploying VDSL 2, which can be upgraded to G.fast etc. but still requires new hardware.
They are not going to be upgrading nodes � even if they wanted to and there was money to do so, there is no point going from VDSL2 to G.Fast over the line distances currently connected to nodes. G.Fast only makes (temporary) sense (for incumbents with their own well maintained copper) with very short loops, which means extending the fibre further and further towards premises and abandoning the existing nodes.
Not exactly true, NBN Co are currently deploying VDSL 2, which can be upgraded to G.fast etc. but still requires new hardware.
and G.FAst will not work for about 50% of premises per node due to distances, so we will need more "nodes" to deploy it, and then when G.SUPA.Fast comes out, we will again need more nodes at an ever increasing cost spiralling out of control and still not capable of matching what GPON can deliver NOW, let alone what XG-PON can deliver now, over the exact same fibre as old GPON
They are not going to be upgrading nodes
ever increasing cost spiralling out of control
Agreed, hence why I said Not exactly true. FTTN can be upgraded, but it will not be worth it in the long run.
G.SUPA.Fast
And when G.Bloody.SUPA.Fast comes out, each house will need its own node :)
[edit] wait, I see where this is going.
so im stuck on this crap for life?
Not exactly true, NBN Co are currently deploying VDSL 2, which can be upgraded to G.fast etc. but still requires new hardware.
No.
So with FTTN that is about as fast as it is going to get. To get more speed you need to bring the fibre closer to where you are, so effectively over building the nodes with new fibre.
You make the entire FTTN build redundant in the process, FTTN is a great example of government waste. 53Billion dollars of Government waste.
Speaking as one who is technically illiterate in these matters, I'd appreciate some clarity from someone who knows...
Would it be possible to retrofit FTTdp onto an existing FttN system?
ie. If the FttN Fibre cable goes from the Exchange to the Node, would it not be possible to do away with the Fibre/Copper kit inside the Node, and patch skinny fibre out to micronodes at the kerb for FTTdp. Effectively turning the Node into a Fibre Junction Box.
Just a thought.
Speaking as one who is technically illiterate in these matters, I'd appreciate some clarity from someone who knows...
Would it be possible to retrofit FTTdp onto an existing FttN system?
ie. If the FttN Fibre cable goes from the Exchange to the Node, would it not be possible to do away with the Fibre/Copper kit inside the Node, and patch skinny fibre out to micronodes at the kerb for FTTdp. Effectively turning the Node into a Fibre Junction Box.
Just a thought.
there is not enough fibre deployed to the node to enable the matching of the original bandwidth splits for a starter ( or so we have been told, only 4 fibres I believe is the count now), and you would still have to then pull fibre from that site to all the premises.
Skinny fibre is a way to deploy a GPON network without the FDH, so to be converting a node to a form of FDH you defeat one of the "advantages" of skinny fibre
there is not enough fibre deployed to the node to enable the matching of the original bandwidth splits for a starter ( or so we have been told, only 4 fibres I believe is the count now)
4 fibres that are run to a node, 2 are lit, leaving 2 for future upgrade if the first 2 are used to capacity.
Would it be possible to retrofit FTTdp onto an existing FttN system?
Apart from the issues above, you also have to decommision the node. Nodes are not simple boxes, they have an external power supply, and internal power supply, active cooling and a whole bunch of communications gear.
To get more speed you need to bring the fibre closer to where you are
According to the Wiki page, G.fast works on copper lengths of up to 500m. The FTTN roll out in my local area all seem to be under 400m. I do realise my area may not be the norm.
According to the Wiki page, G.fast works on copper lengths of up to 500m.
But is that on 0.4mm like we use here in Australia or 0.6mm that a lot of countries tend to use?
Their target is simply 25mbps and that's all they care about achieiving
their "target" is 25 Mbps peak information rate once in a 24 hour period according to an answer they gave to Senate committee, this is actually much worse than a committed 25 Mbps over a 24 hour period
whilst you may synch at a speed higher than 25 and be on a 50Mbps plan, if a node starts to reach capacity they do not need to upgrade it if you can get a burst of traffic of 25 Mbps once in every 24 hour period.
Their is no definition of "once" is it for a second, is it for a minute or is it for an hour.
Might explain why they are only connecting one fibre pair and claiming that IGbps is enough capacity for 300 connections as they donlt have to actually deliver the wholesaled data bandwidth
From all the info available it's going to be a stretch to get 25mbps at 1,300m and maybe even at 1,000m.. particularly in view of the condition of "rural" copper.
The previous data that had been published by Comms Alliance suggested 25mpbs out to around 1100m on 0.4 line. If the rural is on 0.5 or 0.64 copper gauge then it may be able stretch out to 25mbps. The approach from nbn based on experience to date will be that if the extent property doesn't achieve 25mbps, they'll exclude it from the fixed line footprint and give it wireless if available or satellite. Here in lies the issue where the policy is bare minimal and cheapest.
Perhaps because of the relatively low number of connections per micro-node (20-30 average) there's some vectoring magic that takes advantage of the low(er) contention between VDSL services in the cable.
From my understanding, vectoring won't improve peak speeds over distance, just prevent degradation of speed due to interference/cross talk. Edit: Just cross talk I think actually, I'm not sure that it helps with interference.
Might explain why they are only connecting one fibre pair and claiming that IGbps is enough capacity for 300 connections as they donlt have to actually deliver the wholesaled data bandwidth
This is the telstra RIM mistakes made all over again. Telstra did not forsee the need for most houses to get ADSL (and so provisioned for 1 in 5), or for the growth in bandwidth demand, and so massivly underprovisioned. They did eventually learn.
Looks like we have to start with the same mistakes all over again. But then when you have Vertigen saying moden games run on dialup speeds, Fifield saying you can run 5 4k video streams over 25Mbps, and Australia's biggest pirate Malcom (winsock) Turnbull advising them, gross errors in judgement should be expected.
What's the first hop latency like with VDSL2, as implemented for the NBN? I'm the kind of spergelord who goes for no interleaving profiles with ADSL2+ because it drops that first hop latency from 30+ msec to 7-9 msec.
What's the first hop latency like with VDSL2, as implemented for the NBN?
Most of the speedtests that I've seen where the test is to a server hosted by the same RSP (and in the same state) are around the 5ms mark. Given that most of the latency in that test would be just the first hop, I'd say 4-5ms for the VDSL leaving somewhere in the order of 1ms for the backhaul to/from the speedtest server.
Trenchers / Earthmoving have got their work cut out for them tonight. Monday night, 6:30PM, they are frantically digging and running conduit from the pillar to the location the node will be placed.
Must be the existence of the Green Fibre snake being pulled through pits down the road, TOWARDS their location.
LOL. "Erm, Boss, Shouldn't we have conduit laid for that ?"... "Dont worry boys, NBN will pay us overtime !"
LOL. "Erm, Boss, Shouldn't we have conduit laid for that ?"... "Dont worry boys, NBN will pay us overtime !"
Whay did I hear that in the voices of the Madagascar Penguins?
Whay did I hear that in the voices of the Madagascar Penguins?
Running fibre around streets was always the easy part, the hard (most expensive and time consuming) part is getting fibre into the house, especially older houses.
Even where the houses have their lead-in cables above ground?
Even where the houses have their lead-in cables above ground?
It still takes a fair amount of time. Doing aerial cables requires a lot of manpower (cherry picker on one end too). There is also the running of the cable/conduit into the house and mounting NTD. All of this isn't required with re-using copper.
Doing aerial cables requires a lot of manpower (cherry picker on one end too). There is also the running of the cable/conduit into the house and mounting NTD. All of this isn't required with re-using copper.
I was actually comparing installing (underground) fibre in the street compared to overhead fibre to a house (not counting PCD / internal fibre / NTD).
Hey guys,
I will be moving into my current rental property shortly which should have FTTN NBN available as of this week, however i know my property has 2 phone lines (2 separate black lead in cables from the street going to different outlets in the house). if neither of the lines have active services on them, is there a way to check which line is better quality and will have a higher speed compared to the other, and then order the service for that specific line? How am i able to order the service on a line with no current phone number?
cheers!
Just had a full day without disruptions, and my speeds are almost back to where they were (upload max rate has reduced from 1043 kbps to 930 kbps), so looks like work on my node is complete for now.
So that was 6 days of disrupted internet (including multiple outages of more than an hour) � fantastic when you work in a distributed team across multiple countries. And of course there's still the changeover from ADSL -> VDSL to go (at least) which will probably involve replacing my central filter (not sure if mine is VDSL-capable) � so probably at least a half-day outage. And then if I do apply for FoD and they're willing to do it and I can afford it there will be further disruption.
Compare that to my parents with FTTP, where the sum total of internet disruptions attributable to FTTP was zero (their ADSL remained active until after their FTTP was working), and later ~10 minute phone outage when their lead-in was cut and the internal wiring connected to the UNI-V port.
And contrary to what the Coalition keeps claiming, nothing needed to be dug up in their front yard. They had a rose bush* all ready, and yet NBN refused to touch it.
* or something similar � I'm no gardener ...
Post edited to be potentially more accurate ...
So there has been ongoing work on our FTTN build affecting us. We are now up to 8 days of significant internet disruption, including businesses in the area having intermittent or no EFTPOS facility for hours at a time.
In addition we have had a degraded ADSL2+ service for the past week � our upload sync rate has only been 747 kbps despite an upstream line attenuation of 9.9 dB and 13.7 dB SNR. It's so consistent I suspect it's been capped.
And of course as long as "work is being done in the area" I can't complain to my ISP to try and get the speed issue resolved.
And more disruption today ...
Node information is available now: 2MTT-01. I'm on 2MTT-01-02 which has 223 premises allocated.
On the presumption that the backhaul is provisioned the same as other sites (1x 1Gbps) that's 4.6Mbps per premises. To achieve the (quickly broken) promise of 25Mbps they would require at least 1x 10Gbps link.
At the minimum they should be provisioning 2x 10Gbps links, and ideally use all 4 available ports � the extra cost to do so now is minimal (but of course that would increase CAPEX whereas this government wants to push as much onto OPEX as possible). To upgrade to 1x 10Gbps later requires a technician to visit each node, and if they don't physically have enough fibres pulled they can't go above that without pulling more cable. And of course everyone will have to suffer congestion at the node until they're willing to do such an upgrade (I won't be holding my breath).
(1x 1Gbps)
area's are being fed by fibre Backhaul � but the issue isn't they need MORE fibre in a lot of cases. They would just turn it on at a cost in most cases, which is expensive to do most of the time depending how you look at it � and it isn't exactly a click of fingers process. Sadly a lot of area's only use a 1Gbps link..... It's the classic uptake issue...... I can't decide if it's worse than the Fixed Wireless situation when that is about to go live in a lot of areas...... I hardly doubt they are using 1 Gbps routers / switches, it's going to be multiple 10 +
The problem is NBN are very tight lipped on their specs
From what I've been able to gather, the problem is that the cards being put into the nodes for their uplink (backhaul) are only capable of 1Gbps per port. It's not a case of flicking a switch/setting a flag to increase the available bandwidth � the cards need to be physically replaced.
Similarly, even though the cards have 4 ports, only one is being provisioned (even further reducing reliability).
Hence 1x 1Gbps.
However, I have not physically inspected the inside of my node to confirm if that is accurate in this particular case.
From what I've been able to gather, the problem is that the cards being put into the nodes for their uplink (backhaul) are only capable of 1Gbps per port. It's not a case of flicking a switch/setting a flag to increase the available bandwidth � the cards need to be physically replaced
Close but not quite correct, they are using the nant-e line cards which do support 10 gbps sfp modules however to save $800 per node ($200 x4) they've decided to use 1 gbps sfp modules.
to save $800 per node
At approximately 50,000 nodes around Australia that would cost 40 million dollars. A drop in the bucket compared to the "56" billion being spent. Bizarre isn't it?
At approximately 50,000 nodes around Australia that would cost 40 million dollars. A drop in the bucket compared to the "56" billion being spent. Bizarre isn't it?
I guess it was either the higher speed modules or the copper purchased in the last 6 months.
So where does the cost of maintaining the network come into it ? Surely they don't think it's going to be plug and pray.....things go faulty even on fibre...... Switches die.... A very high grade Cisco FC Switch got replaced not long ago at work, cost north of $10k to do......
I was aware that optical kit used pluggable modules, but it's been about 5 years since I last had access to any (gigabit switches with dual 10-gig optical links IIRC) so it completely slipped my mind.
In any case, upgrading to 10Gbps requires someone unplugging a module and plugging in a different one. I'd say I was close enough for my main point to be correct ;)
At approximately 50,000 nodes around Australia that would cost 40 million dollars. A drop in the bucket compared to the "56" billion being spent. Bizarre isn't it?
Anything to move CAPEX to OPEX ...
In any case, upgrading to 10Gbps requires someone unplugging a module and plugging in a different one. I'd say I was close enough for my main point to be correct ;)
The transceiver isn't what determines throughput, i.e you can't just swap a transceiver in a router/switch and see an increase in throughput. If the chassis has enough backplane bandwidth you could swap a card (i.e a 40 port 1gbit/s card for an 4 port 10gbit/s card) and maybe use the same chassis (depending on whether the vendor designed it that way), but then you'd need to install another 9 cards in the same chassis to service the same number of subscribers.
It's nowhere near as 'easy' and 'cheap' as you're making out to increase capacity on the delivery network.
It's nowhere near as 'easy' and 'cheap' as you're making out to increase capacity on the delivery network.
We'd have the 10NBN if that was the case :)
We'd have the 10NBN if that was the case :)
The governing factor on delivery bandwidth, with this government, is rupert murdoch... not technology.
It's nowhere near as 'easy' and 'cheap' as you're making out to increase capacity on the delivery network.
I was trying to make the point that it's not cheap or easy to upgrade, and requires someone to physically go to the node, whereas doing it during the initial install is comparatively cheap and easy ...
I was trying to make the point that it's not cheap or easy to upgrade
In any case, upgrading to 10Gbps requires someone unplugging a module and plugging in a different one.
And I was making the point that to upgrade to 10gbit/s the entire chassis need be replaced, not just some module.
Just a general question if someone could clarify for me please. Are all nodes (cabinets) green? As I thought a saw a green one being iinstalled, and then a few hundred meters down the road is a cream variant?
Both are new to the area so I wondered if there is a difference I tech or just simply a different colour.
Many thanks
Many thanks for that and I better sit down to read this very carefully.
The cream node is the closest to me, the green ones are a lot further away.
Maybe, just maybe I'll be lucky in this case.
At approximately 50,000 nodes around Australia that would cost 40 million dollars. A drop in the bucket compared to the "56" billion being spent. Bizarre isn't it?
Perhaps NBN have no faith our dodgy copper tails will allow a node aggregate > 1 Gbps ?
what is the distance of the copper should be ? 10 20 30 meters ?
what is the distance of the copper should be ? 10 20 30 meters ?
It should be 0 metres.
At approximately 50,000 nodes around Australia that would cost 40 million dollars.
But that has to be weighed against the risk of backhaul related congestion causing the public nto decide nthat FTTN suffers heavy congestion during busy hours and maybe being slower than ADSL.
This might then become "a truth".
Should someone come to that conclusion they might not sign up to FTTN and NBNco will loose revenue.
Lucky that didn't happen.
It's nowhere near as 'easy' and 'cheap' as you're making out to increase capacity on the delivery network.
It isn't far off, the NANT-E has 320Gbps switching capacity and the chassis is capable of 10Gbps per LT card, or 20Gbps with dual NANT-E .
There are up to 384 users on a Node and each node has a 1Gb backhaul (upgradeable to 2Gb but the second fibre isn't even terminated!)
well over 2Gbps. just not required as yet.
when plenty of OLTs home ~2000 fibre services on a single 1Gbps links, max 384 on a node is a doddle.
So 384 users share 1Gbit or about 2.6Mbits per user at peak if everyone is online :(
*if* everyone downloaded at max speed at once, which is utterly not the case. I've seen contention ratios at various points of networks of 18,300% with the links not hitting max utilisation.
people download far, far less data than geeks think, because geeks don't realise they are the tiny tip of a large iceberg in terms of data usage.
well over 2Gbps. just not required as yet.
so what is it?
are they 1 Gbps SFP/+ modules or are they 10 Gbps SFP/+ modules running at 1 Gbps?
how many fibres are run to a node?
the NANT-E card can support 4 10 Gbps SFE/+ modules how many and what modules are installed?
8 pm at night 200 people streaming 1920*1080 netflix, all single cast, no multicast, how much bandwidth is required?
8 pm at night 200 people streaming 1920*1080 netflix, all single cast, no multicast, how much bandwidth is required?
Starts for me at about 4pm (especially during the school holidays) on a Telstra RIM in an estate that is maybe 4yrs old if it is lucky with about 60 houses max in it.
My perfect sync speed of 24/1 (speedtest of about 18/1) takes a nose dive, speedtest currently reports 7Mbps for me, which is only just enough for HD Netflix and Stan.
8 pm at night 200 people streaming 1920*1080 netflix, all single cast, no multicast, how much bandwidth is required?
Yeah, that's the problem and it isn't caused by geeks � it was once but now it is just mum and dad users!
There are two in this house (other than myself) who would stream video non stop much of the evening given an opportunity (and that's pretty often). One is in their early 20's the other in their 50's and both are pretty technically illiterate (and they don't need technical literacy to stream). I had a third heavy streamer but she left home some time ago!
Too many techo types don't recognise the internet has changed and is changing even faster. On line streaming is the norm these days (even the BBC in the UK has streaming only channels now � not even broadcasting them free to air) � and contention doesn't play well with streaming. We need to revise the way we think about networks and contention . I've been doing network design for 45 years and the changes required are blatantly obvious to everyone other than the LNP and their avid (or should that be rabid) supporters.
I've seen contention ratios at various points of networks of 18,300% with the links not hitting max utilisation.
Yep, in the old world that was certainly the case � but we are no longer in the 20th century and network utilisation has changed � and so must the attitude of those involved in the design � just like walking in front of a car with a red flag would be a little impractical these days � so is providing high contention internet services. We have moved on from both of those practises.
are they 1 Gbps SFP/+ modules or are they 10 Gbps SFP/+ modules running at 1 Gbps?
how many fibres are run to a node?
the NANT-E card can support 4 10 Gbps SFE/+ modules how many and what modules are installed
If they were 10 gbps sfp's they'd be running at 10 gbps.
4 sfp ports yes but they are pairs, 1 for send and 1 for receive each using a single fibre. So max bandwidth possible is 40/40 gbps.
All the pics I've seen indicate only 1 pair of ports is being used in each node.
Edit, ignore post, tired and have my wits crossed! See if I was using fibre I wouldn't bee having shorting issues would I?
4 sfp ports yes but they are pairs, 1 for send and 1 for receive each using a single fibre.
Don't most normal SFP's have the TX & RX in a single module ?
4 sfp ports yes but they are pairs, 1 for send and 1 for receive each using a single fibre. So max bandwidth possible is 40/40 gbps.
All the pics I've seen indicate only 1 pair of ports is being used in each node.
they are using 1 SFP module which uses 2 fibres
each SFP port can take 1 module which uses 2 fibres, 1 TX and 1 RX,
The NANT-E it will support 4 2 fibre modules,
now as to whether 4 can be active at a time or if some are to be used as a fall over I don't know
Don't most normal SFP's have the TX & RX in a single module ?
Doh posting when I'm tired, not good. Ps ignore my post.
so what is it?
over. industry code for "none of your business", basically.
all you, as and end user, need to know is that it will be sufficient to demand. it will be.
The NANT-E it will support 4 2 fibre modules,
the NANT-E is the current controller card. there are plenty of other options.
again though, requiring such would mean scaling the bandwidth demand of a single DSLAM will over 11 times what a fibre OLT might possibly require, and that's assuming that every single service runs at 100Mbps � which we know that FTTN services will not.
surely a minimum of 1,100% overhead (conservatively estimated) will be adequate?
Could nbnco attenuate the nodes so they wont sync higher then say 50/20? BT does this in the UK, only offering 17-76mbps
over. industry code for "none of your business", basically.
all you, as and end user, need to know is that it will be sufficient to demand. it will be.
I don't believe you.
over. industry code for "none of your business", basically.
well you have stated in other threads that they are not feeding 12 fibres to a node as we all thought they were with 1 12 fibre ribbon. but it would seem to be 4 fibres for the "2 circuits" nbn� have stated they are feeding to a node.
You have said that they are only using 1 1 Gbps SFP module and that none of the other fibres of unknown number even have connectors on them, they are just coiled up in the fibre tray.
This would give 1Gbps connectivity into a node and now you are saying it is lots more and it "the industry" saying none of your business.
Since when did you or nbn� become "the industry"?
The industry ?
My point being that there are things that the public should be able to know and ask about the project such as this. We should be allowed to know if sufficient capacity has been built into the nodes from the start.
My point being that there are things that the public should be able to know and ask about the project such as this.
Should they ?
We should be allowed to know if sufficient capacity has been built into the nodes from the start.
You should ?
Rewind 5 years. If you ordered a DSL service from anyone that had their own DSLAM's installed (Telstra, Optus, iiNet, TPG, Internode, Exetel, AAPT, etc) how would you know what the backhaul from the DSLAM was and whether the particular wholesale provider in question had provisioned enough bandwidth from the DSLAM back to the POI ?
Most of the time (in the industry) it's up to the wholesale provider to provision things how they want to and then create an appropriate "product" to sell to the retail providers. One of the specs of the product that they sell might be the contention levels. I know of products that are exactly the same, but one has a 1:1 contention (full throughput guaranteed all the time), one has a 1:16 contention (max contention, could be less) and another has a 1:x (no guaranteed at all). All provisioned on the same gear with the same backhaul, you just pay more to have something guaranteed.
Should they ?
Yes. This is (or at least used to be) a national public infrastructure project, not a private enterprise.
It seems the whole FTTN rollout is under-provisioned. I'm 200 metres from the node in an area that was supposedly RFS at the beginning of February, but I can't get a connection because of a "core network shortfall". It sounds very reminiscent of "no ports available on the DSLAM so you'll have to wait until someone moves out or dies", but should this be happening this early in the build?
It seems the whole FTTN rollout is under-provisioned. I'm 200 metres from the node in an area that was supposedly RFS at the beginning of February, but I can't get a connection because of a "core network shortfall".
Out of interest, what do the coverage checkers such as http://www.devoted.com.au/sq say your service class is?
Out of interest, what do the coverage checkers such as http://www.devoted.com.au/sq say your service class is?
Is devoted SQ still working for people? mines dead with a HTTP 500 error.
all you, as and end user, need to know is that it will be sufficient to demand
Sadly, all we as end users know is that demand isn't being met...
Is devoted SQ still working for people?
I had a google API error last week, but not when I visited a minute ago however I didn't try putting in an address... when I do that, nothing happens.
but not when I visited a minute ago however I didn't try putting in an address... when I do that, nothing happens.
Yeh sorry � I should have clarified. I get nothing on browser. However when using troubleshooting tools the web server is responding with a Error HTTP 500 in the background.
Looks like its busted since NuSpoke took over
It seems the whole FTTN rollout is under-provisioned. I'm 200 metres from the node in an area that was supposedly RFS at the beginning of February, but I can't get a connection because of a "core network shortfall". It sounds very reminiscent of "no ports available on the DSLAM so you'll have to wait until someone moves out or dies", but should this be happening this early in the build?
there are nodes in the 2WOY roll out region that are declared RFS, yet ALL of them have network shortfall, seems there is no complete fibre path between them and the FAN/AAS
seems 2WOY-04-05, 2WOY-04-06, 2WOY-04-17 and 2WOY-04-18 all fall into that category. 17 and 18 still had their fibre run coiled up on a pole with a nice 2 km air gap back to the FAN/AAS
funny thing is that even the nbn� site says the premises are connectible, yet when people go to connect they discover the "problem"
Looks like its busted since NuSpoke took over
It worked for me a couple of weeks ago while checking the address of a house my sister was interested in buying, and I found that it had FTTP but didn't make a note of the service class... I tried again last week when I found out she was putting in an offer but couldn't find any other checker that lists service class, until I tried http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/ (not http://www.finder.com.au/nbn/ which has much less info).
Out of interest, what do the coverage checkers such as http://www.devoted.com.au/sq say your service class is?
Devoted has hung telling me to wait, but mynbn says service class 12. NBN accepted the order from my RSP and set an appointment date of last Monday, but when nothing happened they said there was a "core network shortfall" and the order couldn't be completed.
Devoted has hung telling me to wait, but mynbn says service class 12. NBN accepted the order from my RSP and set an appointment date of last Monday, but when nothing happened they said there was a "core network shortfall" and the order couldn't be completed.
Thanks for that, so as suspected is sounds like they are avoiding accurate service classification, presumably for political reasons.
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2512805&p=17#r324
Nice also to see that you are also known as Geo101
I'm not, but If you want to be paranoid and think that, I have no way of stopping you.
Ditto!! Whirlpool can be quite a confusing forum to follow at times, conspiracy theories and politics aplenty.
i cant wait to see fttdp speedtests
i cant wait to see fttdp speedtests
well as all "tesing" is being done at nbn employees premises who already have FTTP connections I hope you are not gong to be holding your breath for unbiased results.
Sure, they should be good, but as they are being conducted in a fully closed environment will we really know if there are any problems.
Remember that the first results form the 11 Node FTTN trial had average speeds of over 60 Mbps.
Telstra when giving evidence under oath in Senate Committee and commecnting on those results, said that they did not expect to see results like that continue in the "real world" roll out due to the distances involved in the CAN
Node FTTN trial had average speeds of over 60 Mbps.
I'm not sure about the other 10 trial areas, but in the initial trial in Umina/Woy Woy, I'd heard that Telstra replaced all the copper lead ins prior to the trial.
I'm not sure about the other 10 trial areas, but in the initial trial in Umina/Woy Woy, I'd heard that Telstra replaced all the copper lead ins prior to the trial.
not quite true
but workers who said they were working for a Labour Hire company employed by NBN were redoing joints in the streets of the 11 trial nodes, this was on Telstra copper and it would appear that nbn had no legal access to those cables and joints, in fact they were using their old access codes from when they did work for Telstra or Telstra contractor, they were out of retirement as the money they were being paod for this work was far above what they would have been paid previously to redo joints/joint enclosures.
All services were run in on the "second pair" so that existing services were maintained, so not sure if new copper was run in or if just locations where a "second path" could be assembled from existing copper was used.
cant wait to see fttdp speedtests
FTTdP on it's own won't boost speeds much above 100mbps, you'd need G.fast for that.
You can see performance using G.fast, with and without vectoring on, but I don't know if nbn are running G.fast trials or just normal copper from the pit to the houses.
FTTdP on it's own won't boost speeds much above 100mbps, you'd need G.fast for that.
You wouldn't bother with VDSL2 on a short FTTdp copper line because you don't need to share spectrum (no need for vectoring) and you have much greater bandwidth available (hundreds of MHz) well above the limitations of VDSL2, so G.fast is the clear natural choice for the copper link standard.
so G.fast is the clear natural choice for the copper link standard.
It will be in the future, but for now VDSL2 on 30+ Profiles can boost to 200mbps+ on the short loops (allegedly, haven't researched lately for actual usage)
nvm
I feel for those who are connected to this copper line! Was given a tip off so thought I'll check it out.
Copper attached to the metal fence
Dexseal Gel Filled Splice Closure
I'm sure it will work very well with the FTTN (in the 2WAG-02 SAM)!
Is the $300 nbn New Development Fee only payable if you're within the area highlighted on this map?
https://www.communicatio
You wouldn't bother with VDSL2 on a short FTTdp copper line
VDSL2 is the beast being employed currently for FTTB, why do you think FTTdp will be any different?
The only thing kept in an "upgrade" of FTTN to FTTP is the transit network and maybe the fibre that went to the nodes.
The transit network is probably off topic, but the aggregation network is most certainly not.
A run of the mill VDSL DSLAM only has real life traffic. For those who are arguing about the difference in cost of initially provisioning a 1x1G link verses the futuristic 2x10G links are in imaginary mode, to say the least.
The reason the NBN DSLAM's are hitting the road running with a single 1G link is because... drum roll.. thats the traffic load in this early stage?
I suspect the NBN have the tools to monitor the situation, they would likely be part of the overall purchase...
Quick question, can the supplied modems for fttn provide the profile (17a, 30a) information of your line? If not, is the information available from the ISP or NBNco?
Hi all, sorry if this has been asked before but is there any issue with having 2 different providers on FTTN? i.e 1 for voice, 1 for data
Hi all, sorry if this has been asked before but is there any issue with having 2 different providers on FTTN? i.e 1 for voice, 1 for data
you can, but it is not like a FTTP connection, you only have one "port" into nbn� network.
You will need a "data" RSP first with a modem configured to give you connection, then you will need a separate ATA or IP phone configured to your VOIP provider and plugged into your modem/router
You will need a "data" RSP first with a modem configured to give you connection, then you will need a separate ATA or IP phone configured to your VOIP provider and plugged into your modem/router
While that would work, unless the RSP modem is properly passing through the DSCP tagging for VoIP then you'll get no benefit of the traffic class 1 bandwidth reserved for VoIP � it'll be thrown in together with the TC-4 for general Internet use. Having the VoIP service from the same provider and on the same modem/router as Internet means they can prioritise the traffic.
Thanks guys, here's a little more info of the situation.
The site currently has ADSL through AAPT and 2 phonelines + fax through Telstra. There is also an EFTPOS machine but we will likely replace it with a 3G/4G EFTPOS machine. We would like to stay with both AAPT for our internet and Telstra for the phonelines.
Is this possible?
We would like to stay with both AAPT for our internet and Telstra for the phonelines.
There is no reason you couldn't have an AAPT NBN FTTN data service on one copper line, and have another copper NBN FTTN service purely for the Telstra Voice NBN service (using a Telstra supplied router with FXS ports).
As to why any sane person would choose to burn their money paying for expensive Telstra voice services is beyond me (NBN gives you the opportunity to finally stop paying the Telstra PSTN voice "tax") and choose a cheaper VoIP provder. But hey it's your money to waste.
As to why any sane person would choose to burn their money paying for expensive Telstra voice services is beyond me
Any mobile plan you buy today comes included with free calls. Why is anyone still considering a landline at all?
Why is anyone still considering a landline at all?
because fixed line services have redundancies that mobile services do not
because fixed line services have redundancies that mobile services do not
Really? If your phone line is down at home... what do you do? Use your mobile.
If your mobile doesn't work, what do you do? Move to somewhere that it does.
Residential customers paying a minimum of $30 a month just to have a landline 'just in case your mobile doesn't work' doesn't sound sensible to me... but maybe that's just me.
Why is anyone still considering a landline at all?
For the entertainment that "The Technical Department of Microsoft" and the like provides ;) This diversion doesn't yet seem to be available on my mobile yet.
Why is anyone still considering a landline at all?
small businesses and shops which either do not have internet, or dont require anything other than a standard phone only service?
at least nbnco appear to be leaving isdn lines as they are.... for now.
As to why any sane person would choose to burn their money paying for expensive Telstra voice services is beyond me (NBN gives you the opportunity to finally stop paying the Telstra PSTN voice "tax") and choose a cheaper VoIP provder. But hey it's your money to waste.
It's a business line, but hey, good job jumping to conclusions.
small businesses and shops which either do not have internet
They still exist?
or dont require anything other than a standard phone only service?
They exist?
Actually there are many, we run a tourist railway in SA and all of our stations require phone and eftpos facilities only, no need for Internet at all, and most voice only nbn services are more expensive compared to a standard voice line.
Any my family's building business while uses a medium amount of data, and phone also requires access to fax services on a duet line, this poses the problem as fax to email service really doesn't cut the mustard. While fttn will offer huge increase to speed over their adsl, really gives problems for the fax service as yet I haven't come up with a workable solution to the fax. It's a pity they didn't use a standard NTD for fttn.
Actually there are many, we run a tourist railway in SA and all of our stations require phone and eftpos facilities only, no need for Internet at all, and most voice only nbn services are more expensive compared to a standard voice line.
Fair enough. That stuff could prob be done over a mobile gateway. I mean the eftpos should be going over gsm/3g by now anyway. Dialup eftpos is a bit old hat?
Heaps and heaps of shops would only have phone and eftpos... Think food shops like bakeries, pizza shops, fish and chip shops, small clothing stores, butchers etc. They will end up paying more for voice only services, and probably don't want to spend extra money buying a modem or interface if they don't need to.
It's a business line, but hey, good job jumping to conclusions.
My comment wasn't aimed at residential lines. I'm exactly in the same boat as you with a business site moving to FTTN NBN later this month. Our voice PSTN lines are already using VoIP over ADSL, only the fax and EFTPOS is using the POTS PSTN part of the ADSL copper line (as Telstra bill you for it whether you use it or not now). Once FTTN is available I'll setup that on another copper line to make migration easier (using an internet data service from a non-Telstra RSP), migrate EFTPOS to a wireless merchant terminal, then connect a Patton 4112 FXS gateway to the fax and use MyNetFone for T.38 compliant fax calls. Voice VoIP calls will continue to use Telecube/MyNetFone and other backup VSP's over the new internet data service. No more need for any useless and expensive POTS PSTN or NBN voice services.
Actually there are many, we run a tourist railway in SA and all of our stations require phone and eftpos facilities only, no need for Internet at all, and most voice only nbn services are more expensive compared to a standard voice line.
You might want to think outside the box. Migrating EFTPOS terminals to wireless versions and several options for phone service exist that would be cheaper. Using mobile phone services directly for voice would be the easiest method (with so many plans to choose from), alternatively if you must have a fixed DID line you can use a VoIP client app on the mobile phone connected to an online PBX to manage the extensions at all the remote stations. Another alternative is to use a 3G/4G wifi internet gateway on a cheap low quota ~$10/month plan and connect a fixed wifi VoIP wall/desk handset for VoIP calls. All these options would be cheaper than paying for a ridiculously expensive NBN voice service which needs the complexity of a new VDSL gateway router with FXS ports in FTTN areas.
Any my family's building business while uses a medium amount of data, and phone also requires access to fax services on a duet line, this poses the problem as fax to email service really doesn't cut the mustard. While fttn will offer huge increase to speed over their adsl, really gives problems for the fax service as yet I haven't come up with a workable solution to the fax.
See what I have written above for what I am doing for fax services. You need a T.38 compliant FoIP provider like MyNetFone and a decent T.38 compliant ATA gateway device. Otherwise the line drops to a voice G.711 stream and suffers jitter problems that will kill the connection before the fax is delivered. Even the "standard" NBN FTTP NTD's as you suggest aren't compliant. They don't work 100% perfectly for EFTPOS and fax as they just use uncompressed G.711 voice codec as VoIP. It is only slightly more reliable because the VoIP RTP streams are prioritsed as TC1 data streams over the NBN but packets can still be dropped or arrive out of order (just less likely than a TC4 general internet NBN service).
Can anyone advise what actually takes place on a FTTN activation callout? I've got a booking for someone to attend the premises on the 27th of May. What exactly is this for?
Is it possible to tweak SNR on FTTN/VDSL2 like it is on ADSL2+?
Is it possible to tweak SNR on FTTN/VDSL2 like it is on ADSL2+?
Yes, only on BYO Modems though. Not recommended however.
I know I can with the Asus DSL-AC68U. But because of my line length being 910m I tend to just pick the Stable Profile. Default and High Performance can also be picked, but tend to lead to more CRC errors and dropped packets.
Can anyone advise what actually takes place on a FTTN activation callout? I've got a booking for someone to attend the premises on the 27th of May. What exactly is this for?
I think it depends who your RSP is. I went with TPG, and the tech came out, plugged his line tester in and headed to the Node to make sure he jumpered the right one..
Others where I am didn't have as much luck..
What exactly is this for?
It appears that it is to ensure that there is at least 'some sort of copper pair' between you and the node.
My story. A young chapped knocked on the door at about 5 minutes past appointment time (it was the 3rd appointment :)) and plugged in a warbler to the 1st phone point, which in my case was the old cream plug and socket arrangement.
I said 'Are you off to jumper the pillar to the node' and he said 'no that is already done'.
20 minutes later he returned and said to me 'It looks like a good pair, it was really loud' and 'that you should get full speed', which was odd as I am at least 500m from the pillar.
He also said, 'it shows the same signal level from each side of the pair to earth, which shows it is good'.
So I said 'Can I connect the modem now' and he said 'Yes'. We chatted a bit although he was keen to go.
Nothing in the check list says that the customers modem should sync. :)
The modem did sync as he was leaving, so it appears he did everything he was supposed to do. :)
Note: I am a SkyMesh FTTN trial customer.
OK so far so good, however the initial speed tests and D-Link DSL-2877AL modem/router status were not overwhelming for a supposedly good pair.
http://s32.postimg.org/91730at2t/screenshot_1241.jpg
Ookla NetGauge Result
http://speedtest.skymesh.com.au/
Thursday, 28 April 2016 17:04+10
Server: Sydney
Down: 29.3 Mbps
Up: 16.8 Mbps
Latency: 8 ms
Details:
- SkyMesh nbn FTTN (Up to 100/40 Mbps)
- Connected via Wi-Fi
- Berkeley Vale CSA
- Berkeley Vale POI
- Flash 21.0.0
- Firefox 46.0
- Windows 7
DSL STATISTICS
Line State up
Modulation ITU G.993.5(G.Vectoring),G.998.4(G.INP)
Annex Mode ANNEX_BDownstream Upstream
SNR Margin 6.0 dB 7.6 dB
Line Attenuation 14.9 dB 2.8 dB
Data Rate 32347 kbps 17692 kbps
ES 0 0
SES 0 0
UAS 133 133
FEC 1679 3
CRC 0 0
Hmmm; I was hoping for 60 -70Mbps?
Well today I sorted it.
It's an old place and had various secondary phone points albeit professionally wired.
I disconnected the secondary points (I'll probably have to go to jail now) and made the point a single primary outlet.
I now have 60-70Mbps.
http://s32.postimg.org/ykjzm
Ookla NetGauge Result
http://speedtest.skymesh.com.au/
Wednesday, 11 May 2016 14:58+10
Server: Sydney
Down: 66.7 Mbps
Up: 26.2 Mbps
Latency: 8 ms
Details:
- SkyMesh nbn FTTN (Up to 100/40 Mbps)
- Berkeley Vale CSA
- Berkeley Vale POI
- Flash 21.0.0
- Firefox 46.0
- Windows 7
DSL
Line Status: Connected
DSL Modulation Type: VDSL2
Annex Type: Annex AUpstream Downstream
Current Rate (Kbps) 27632 72703
Max Rate (Kbps) 27632 73398
SNR Margin (dB) 6.2 6
Line Attenuation (dB) 29.6 14.3
Errors (Pkts) 0 0
Now that's not the full story, as you'll notice that there is a TP-Link TD-W9970 modem router reporting the line stats.
It goes a bit quicker with quicker OOkla speed tests than the D-Link.
I really wanted 60-70Mbps! and no less. ;)
The more pedestrian D-Link DSL-2877AL results:
Ookla NetGauge Result
http://speedtest.skymesh.com.au/
Wednesday, 11 May 2016 15:25+10
Server: Sydney
Down: 57.2 Mbps
Up: 22.2 Mbps
Latency: 7 ms
Details:
- SkyMesh nbn FTTN (Up to 100/40 Mbps)
- Berkeley Vale CSA
- Berkeley Vale POI
- Flash 21.0.0
- Firefox 46.0
- Windows 7
DSL STATISTICS
Line State up
Modulation ITU G.993.5(G.Vectoring),G.998.4(G.INP)
Annex Mode ANNEX_BDownstream Upstream
SNR Margin 0.0 dB 0.0 dB
Line Attenuation 13.8 dB 0.0 dB
Data Rate 62260 kbps 23003 kbps
ES 0 0
SES 0 0
UAS 188 188
FEC 0 0
CRC 0 0
So moral of the story is that daggy home wiring has an enormous effect on VDSL.
So moral of the story is that daggy home wiring has an enormous effect on VDSL.
Probably more than it had on ADSL/ADSL2+. The higher the bandwidth... the more impact errors have over that link.
there's just more damage to be done. when we did a VDSL trial at Telstra some years ago, houses that had been running fine for years with ADSL2+ were basket cases with VDSL. found stuff like sockets wired with speaker wire etc.
Is it possible to tweak SNR on FTTN/VDSL2 like it is on ADSL2+?
yes, but you won't enjoy what happens as a result.
I figured this would be the more apporiate place to post my response instead of in the Actual rollout progress thread.
Up the road from me they have two nodes and two new pillars within 3 metres of each othrr
This isn't my photo but I found it on twitter a couple of weeks back and it appears that they have installed 3 giant pillars right near each other, think It was somewhere in Melbourne https://i.imgur.com/1qJT8mq.jpg
For some reason, my head wants me to call them "the 3 wise Pillars" don't know exactly why through :P
Has anyone seen two nodes next to each other? They removed one cabinet and relocated it approximately 220m down the road and about 6m from another.
another angle https://goo.gl/7ymG0J
is that another Node just across the road? I wonder why they would do such a thing through?
You'd think that they would be placing nodes as further from each other as possible to ensure everyone at least gets a "fair speed". but instead let's just place all these nodes together and hope for the best they say. I sincerely feel sorry for that house owner who will have to put up with the node hums when they are powered on.
May I ask what area you took these in? and to answer your question, yes I have come close to 2 nodes placed near each other but they were on different sides of the road, one was on the left side where the Police station building is next to a RIM, directly across on the main road near the old Dick smiths electronic building is another Node
Sadly not placed together but not far from each other either, I just remembered that I took photos of both of them but not together in 1 pic since that would be a little hard to do.
This isn't my photo but I found it on twitter a couple of weeks back and it appears that they have installed 3 giant pillars right near each other, think It was somewhere in Melbourne
https://i.imgur.com/1qJT8mq.jpg
That would "Melbourne" Perth, the corner of Scarborough Beach Rd and King Edward St in Osborne Park.
For some reason, my head wants me to call them "the 3 wise Pillars" don't know exactly why through :P
Or unwise?
is that another Node just across the road? I wonder why they would do such a thing through?
Depends on the DA. The reason you may have two nodes next to each other is due to size requirements. I believe max per node is 384 pairs.
is that another Node just across the road? I wonder why they would do such a thing through?
No, AusPost mail storeage box for the posties that is on the same side of the street.
May I ask what area you took these in?
In the Wagga suburb of Estella, in the DA ETLA:1 which only has 140 premises. ETLA:3 is the largest with 272, with further developments to be connected in the future.
That would "Melbourne" Perth, the corner of Scarborough Beach Rd and King Edward St in Osborne Park.
Yes it does look like "Ossy Park". I was in Guthrie St yesterday, nodes everywhere!
Depends on the DA. The reason you may have two nodes next to each other is due to size requirements. I believe max per node is 384 pairs.
and yet I know of an ADA that is listed as having 428 premises and only 1 node
http://www.finder.com.au/nbn-tracker/ada/2WOY-09-05
work that one out
Might be a micronode somewhere too...?
nope, this is in a full suburban streetscape.
There is a large "hotel/resort/apartment complex, but it should either be listed as a high value FTTB build and thus not included in the Node premises or it shoull have its own streetside node, again, none exists either physically or according toe the roll out data
according the the data about the copper DAs, the location of the complex is listed as being in WOYY:36 and this is listed as having 553 premises
it should either be listed as a high value FTTB build and thus not included in the Node premises
Why? Is fttb not "copper"? Why does it matter anyway... it says there the number of copper premises. Which is correct isn't it?
Why? Is fttb not "copper"? Why does it matter anyway... it says there the number of copper premises. Which is correct isn't it?
but a node cannot service more than 384, so how is it going to service over 400 or 500 hundred premises?
so if the "complex" is in its own FTTB build the premises should not be getting counted in the normal FTTN node
but a node cannot service more than 384
Some nodes are doubled up with 768 ports in larger cabinets.
Some nodes are doubled up with 768 ports in larger cabinets.
they will be extremely rare (if they are used at all) as the lines lengths for that service area will be far too long to provide 25mbs minimum.
With all the talk of "ripping up everyone's driveways", how many people had their driveways ripped up for FTTP?
I'm serious here, I would like a decent answer. I know some cases involved installing new conduits, but I don't think that could be more than 5% of premises, and only a minute fraction of these cases would have involved removing an existing structure (garden, driveway etc). Morrow is working so hard to justify the MTM plan he has to make such blatantly BS statements and then provide no evidence of anything.
Note: This is part of the reasoning for the "superiority" of FTTN over FTTP, so I think it belongs here.
they will be extremely rare (if they are used at all) as the lines lengths for that service area will be far too long to provide 25mbs minimum.
Not in high density areas where they are used.
I'm serious here, I would like a decent answer. I know some cases involved installing new conduits, but I don't think that could be more than 5% of premises, and only a minute fraction of these cases would have involved removing an existing structure (garden, driveway etc). Morrow is working so hard to justify the MTM plan he has to make such blatantly BS statements and then provide no evidence of anything.
I haven't been involved in the NBN rollout but my area is fibre NBN but approximately 52% of the service area module that surrounds my house (I'm greenfields so not in the same SAM but I drive through older brownfields to get to my house) and overall for all service area 59% is SC3. There were also some older stats but I don't know how relevant they are for now, but...
For the statistics, last stats I saw were about 2 years ago and it was 1-in-10 leadins were not fit for purpose, however just because it is not fit for purpose doesn't mean digging everything up. Horizontal boring machines are used in most cases that I've seen which does not involve digging up the garden, or driveway to do.
When it comes to my local area, I've not seen any house with a displaced driveway or garden because of the NBN. While the rollout was in progress the FDH's had new pipes run for them, and nature strips were not dug up except for where the FDH landed, and that was for its platform. In fact I've seen far more destructive installs done for the FTTN nodes outside of the property line. I've seen probably about 30 or 40 premises near mine that have had lead-in renewal, there were probably more but I didn't actually see them being done and would never know because of lack of displacement.
With all the talk of "ripping up everyone's driveways", how many people had their driveways ripped up for FTTP?
That's not to say it doesn't happen. There will be cases where the composition of the soil does not lend itself to horizontal boring techniques and does require to be dug up, but these are the exception not the rule, and of course the cases that the media, and Morrow jump on to fear monger.
In fact I've seen far more destructive installs done for the FTTN nodes outside of the property line.
Same here. They have been rolling out FTTN in our area for the past 2 months and they have had to excavate to gain access to the underground power (10 year old estate, everything underground). They made a hell of a mess installing two of the nodes near my place. The entire footpath & surrounding nature strips were dug up & had to be replaced once they finished. This would never have happened with a FTTP rollout as there wouldn't have been any nodes requiring access to the underground power.
Some nodes are doubled up with 768 ports in larger cabinets.
just out of curiousoty, can you please show one of these cabinets.
nbn� had 2 cabinet sizes a 192 and a 384.
They have now standardized on the 384 cabinet size and just vary the electronics and copper termination strips
Not sure there would be enough room to terminate 1500 copper pairs in the copper section of the "standard" cabinet.
Remember that nbn� are bringing in an exchange pair to permit voice pass through as well as the outgong VDSL pair
Also not sure if there is enough room for cards to supply 768 copper connections, I think they used all slots for the 384 connections
Not in high density areas where they are used.
They would have to be incredibly high density indeed!
Some nodes are doubled up with 768 ports in larger cabinets.
such a device does not exist. the only way to get more than 384 ports is to install two cabinets, and even then they would be entirely standalone devices, feeding different copper sheaths. to do otherwise would interfere with vectoring.
just out of curiousoty, can you please show one of these cabinets.
with a unicorn standing next to it.
nbn� had 2 cabinet sizes a 192 and a 384.
They have now standardized on the 384 cabinet size and just vary the electronics and copper termination strips
and a few other things, but yes the cabinet shell itself is standarised.
Can anyone advise what actually takes place on a FTTN activation callout? I've got a booking for someone to attend the premises on the 27th of May. What exactly is this for?
I wrote about our experience yesterday here:
Basically, to have our splitter / filter removed, and to tell us to call our RSP for Activation � all this was done at our premises. At the pillar some 300m away, he probably jumpered some copper cables leading to our premises.
Another FTTN graph update, with ~30 more samples when compared to the last ones.
with ~30 more samples
Good stuff.
Q1. What are the total number of samples? Pretty gob-smacked that there is soooo much data. :)
Q2. Is this data simply the 'modem status data' and 'estimated node distance', as posted on WP?
I guess the key thing that it demonstrates (for me) is that:
a). there are an awful lot of bad pairs and/or
b). there are an awful lot of VDSL installations to premises with multiple extensions.
Q3. Might it it be better to maintain the two graphs using the same x, y maximums?
Q4. Would it be possible to overlay a line graph of anticipated VDLS performance vs distance ie not a trend line, but a known best estimate of VDSL performance vs distance. This might assist identifying outliers?
Oh and that MTM is a... crock?
Oh and that MTM is a... crock?
Settle down there. Remember that all those sites are in the initial 18 month co-existence period to prevent interference to adjacent ADSL and other exchange based services so vectoring is NOT turned on yet. Once vectoring is turned on the results will dramatically improve.
And I suspect that are (at least for some) initial figures that might be substantially improved by altering home wiring (disconnecting excess bridge tap points, removing old ADSL filters./splitters, disconnecting mode3 alarms etc)
At the moment beyond about 300m it's a lottery
At the moment beyond about 300m it's a lottery
For me below 300m is a lottery. I am around 250m away from the node and you would think i would get close to 90 Mbps .. but nowhere near that. The max attainable is only 64 Mbps. Uploads are great at 35 Mbps.
Telstra gateway max TG799vac
DSL Type VDSL2
DSL Mode Fast
Maximum Line rate 35.21 Mbps 64.19 Mbps
Line Rate 35.21 Mbps 64.14 Mbps
Data Transferred 131.37 MBytes 2173.92 MBytes
Output Power 13.3 dBm 7.6 dBm
Line Attenuation 5.9, 32.9, 39.6,N/A,N/A dB 15.7, 35.7, 53.0 dB
Noise Margin 6.8 dB 6.4 dB
Trying to find out actual cable distance to node from Telstra is impossible. They don't understand. So pretty much i have given up and just will settle with this. The speeds are a lot better than our 12 Mbps ADSL speeds.
Settle down there.
:)
And I suspect that there are (at least for some) initial figures that might be substantially improved by altering home wiring (disconnecting excess bridge tap points, removing old ADSL filters./splitters, disconnecting mode3 alarms etc)
This is also my very strong suspicion.
I had dramatic results (speed doubled) upon removal of two vacant extensions). see /forum-replies.cfm?t=2479910&p=66#r1302
Using a D-Link modem reported speeds increased from 32347 kbps to 62260 kbps.
Using a TP-Link modem it went from 39854 kbps to 72703 kbps.
It appears that there are a number of variables that impact on the results
At the moment beyond about 300m it's a lottery
Yes, that does show up on the plots quite clearly.
Just thinking out aloud, a plot of modem reported line attenuation (dB) vs modem rate (kbps) should identify the outliers, on the basis that (in theory at least) it is the line length/loss that dictates performance.
This might point to the number of premises with suspect 'untidy' internal wiring?
I wonder if this data is recorded by denmark555?
Another FTTN graph update, with ~30 more samples when compared to the last ones.
Based on the graph and some more data, i can probably hope for approx 40 down and 20 up. And i hope im less than 800m.
This is also my very strong suspicion.
it's been well known from the very first testing that optimising in-home wiring can have substantial benefits to VDSL2 performance. the higher frequency range in use means the impact of minor imperfections is considerably greater than for older forms of DSL.
it's been well known from the very first testing that optimising in-home wiring can have substantial benefits to VDSL2 performance. the higher frequency range in use means the impact of minor imperfections is considerably greater than for older forms of DSL.
something that wouldn't be a problem on FTTP since its not impaired by such issues.
but fttn/vdsl is perfect because you say so....
it's been well known from the very first testing that optimising in-home wiring can have substantial benefits to VDSL2 performance. the higher frequency range in use means the impact of minor imperfections is considerably greater than for older forms of DSL.
Im glad to hear you say that, although i do think you didnt agree with me when i highlighted this risk a couple of years ago. :)
It is a pity we have gone down this path, it would have been better to ask for a co-contribution for FTTP install than cost shifting ntd (modem) and in premises remediation onto end users.
something that wouldn't be a problem on FTTP since its not impaired by such issues.
that's a bit like saying that a Ferrari doesn't need tuning like a Ford. not really a valid point of comparison.
but fttn/vdsl is perfect because you say so....
FTTN is far from perfect. nobody claimed it was. it's a reasonable compromise solution.
the arguments around FTTN largely arise because the absolutists who don't understand the concept of "reasonable" have no ability to see the wider picture beyond their narrow little end-user view of the world.
Im glad to hear you say that, although i do think you didnt agree with me when i highlighted this risk a couple of years ago. :)
I don't recall the comment, although I am sure some nothing-but-fibre zealot will now spend a bunch of time unearthing something to quote out of context.
a lot comes down to what you define as "acceptable". the government made that determination, because we elect it to make decisions on our behalf. that might not suit a small minority of extremists, but that's OK � the noise they make is considerably disproportionate to their actual representation. they'll make the same noise about that too, but that's the name of the game when dealing with zealots.
the bottom line with FTTN is quick installs, no internal rewiring, use what's there. does that optimise performance? nope, nobody (including me) ever said it did. does it provide adequate performance for the vast majority of users? yes, absolutely.
and there's nothing limiting people who want to optimise their experience from getting a cabler in to do so, so their arguments devolve down to "I'm not getting it free", which is another way of saying that everyone else isn't paying for it for them.
speaking as a member of "everyone else", that doesn't lose me any sleep.
It is a pity we have gone down this path, it would have been better to ask for a co-contribution for FTTP install than cost shifting ntd (modem) and in premises remediation onto end users.
perhaps. I don't discount the suggestion, but let's look at the mechanics in brief.
FTTP install is already available via technology change. the arguments around that come down to the costs, not availability. people would like it to be cheaper, but the reality is that telco grade infrastructure is very expensive, far beyond what most people think. far, far beyond. tens of thousands of dollars counts as a simple job. I'd invite anyone that thinks they should get that for free (read: someone else pays for it for them) to go and ask their neighbours if they would be willing to subside their costs for them, because they think they are entitled to it.
that's what the argument comes down to, period.
the leadin and NTD install is a cost, but it's about $300 or so. if you look at the published costs of a technology change, that's not a factor. I'm not even sure NBN charge that part of it.
as for in-premises remediation, that's a valid point of argument. not everyone wants it, but it would be nice to be available for people that do. some considerations for thought though:
- what's covered? rewire of the house? cutaway of everything past first socket? what about backwire of other sockets to modem location for VoIP POTS emulation?
- what guarantees are there? what if the tech attends, isolates the premise internals, and finds the service performance doesn't improve? the job is billable, but nobody is happy.
I personally think that NBN should introduce a beyond-SLA, no-guarantees, best-effort, service optimisation capability, so that end users have an established channel to explore the option if they so wish.
the problem is that best-effort and no-guarantee limitations make it difficult to offer such a capability commercially, because every time that it's not possible, the antis will be out in force claiming that the company didn't care, just ripped someone off, or some such rubbish.
as such, I cannot fault them for steering well clear of the subject until they can determine that they are covered by the same realistic expectations and guarantees as the self-appointed social justice warriors of the anti camp empower themselves with.
I don't recall the comment, although I am sure some nothing-but-fibre zealot will now spend a bunch of time unearthing something to quote out of context.
You are a little easy throwing labels around, i am not a fibre zealot.
I am evidencnce driven, not idealohically driven.
I call to your attention the Time Value of Money (TVM) calculation in the Startegic Review.
I think they have underestimated their build times, cost of build and revenues.
I think time will show the people you are currently calling zealots will be proven to be prescient.
And the politicians of the day will say "how could we have known?".
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