1. Ring Telstra, ask for internet, they'll generally default to adsl.
That is why I said that you do your homework first and ask for a specific package.
I have done this for many elderly friends and relatives and never had a problem.
As for 2. the number of data base errors are small compared to the total installed connections.
A large percentage of premises are listed as hfc not available
How, specifically, do you know its a large percentage?
6JTS-61 JANDAKOT WA 01-Nov-2016
6JTS-60 JANDAKOT WA 18-Nov-2016
Good to see there are now concrete dates. How do I know if I am in 6JTS-60 or 6JTS-61
Good to see there are now concrete dates. How do I know if I am in 6JTS-60 or 6JTS-61
i asked this question on the previous page and the answer was � you won't. you basically need to wait and see
i asked this question on the previous page and the answer was � you won't. you basically need to wait and see
Expected as much especially since we still don't know all that much about the HFC service.
My RSA is listed in the 09/15 PDF as going live in 2 stages, one is HFC that is due for Q3 2016, the other part is listed as FTTN and has a date as H1 2017.
Would that mean that existing HFC customers in my RSA would be getting NBN grade services before those on copper?
Wheelers HIll in VIC 30 Sep.
I am pretty sure Wheelers Hill is Telstra HFC, not sure about the other areas..
What makes you say this?
This area has Optus HFC above ground, and Telstra HFC below ground. Wouldn't NBN utilise the Optus HFC in this case?
This will give you a coloured overview of your area. Click on your premises and a dialog box will open with your specific details.
I only get JREE:28 no other details that would be unique to that location.
Would that mean that existing HFC customers in my RSA would be getting NBN grade services before those on copper?
Yes. It also means if you are passed by HFC you can get NBN sooner than those who are not.
if you are passed by HFC you can get NBN sooner
I am happy to wait as long as possible and hope that sanity will finally prevail.
Currently get 100 / 2 on Optus HFC most of the time at a good price. Would like better upload speed, but not at the price of the stable service I have had for years.
I am happy to wait as long as possible and hope that sanity will finally prevail.
I'm the same. Currently have Telstra HFC. But my area is under build for FTTN. RFS is due for December this year, so I'll be holding off as long as possible to see what happens with HFC.
My house has Telstra and Optus HFC lead-ins, both of which were done aerially. However, the Telstra connection then goes underground while the Optus connection naturally continues along the power poles. This is the same for all of the houses that I've observed around me.
In this case, which network would be used for my area under the NBN HFC rollout? Would there be a difference in performance based on what network they choose to use?
In this case, which network would be used for my area under the NBN HFC rollout?
This is unclear. They will be utilising aerial lead-ins which as led many people (including me) to speculate that Optus HFC will be preferred.
Would there be a difference in performance based on what network they choose to use?
Yes. The Telstra HFC network has a simpler and more efficient design. It should be less work to upgrade this network.
If Federal Labor gain power, with today's announcement that FTTN is dead in the water, there's now a good chance that those of us in the Optus HFC only footprint that were earmarked for NBN HFC using the Optus aerial network, are now going to get FTTP.
Even in areas like mine, where Optus appear to have already done some sort of another HFC upgrade earlier this year to ensure that peak hour HFC does not reduce to the down to 5Mbps download speeds of the 2nd half of last year on an up to 100Mbps service.
The big question is for those of us with an (Optus) NBN HFC build start of H2 2016, and RFS H1 2017, could we possibly see FTTP with a build start H1 2017, or will be considered as well served and can go to the back of the queue for FTTP for now?
Whilst resources are focused on more under-served areas and all those nearly MDU's that need their FTTB ASAP because both their mobile broadband and ADSL/2+ copper broadband is completely saturated and/or unreliable, particularly during peak hours.
Or, if NBN announce that the Optus HFC only network areas are going to be overbuilt with NBN FTTP, at what point will Optus stop rolling out new HFC lead-ins and/or stop accepting new orders form premises with existing HFC lead-ins, to it's HFC Network?
The big question is for those of us with an (Optus) NBN HFC build start of H2 2016, and RFS H1 2017, could we possibly see FTTP with a build start H1 2017, or will be considered as well served and can go to the back of the queue for FTTP for now?
Depends on when contracts are signed. They've said they will fulfil contracts (and hopefully the libs aren't arses and just go sign a bunch of stuff now), but anything beyond that they'll be looking at fttp. Meant to be about 40% fttp rather than the projected 20% under current plans. No mention of what it all means for HFC areas, they really only talk about it as an alternative to FTTN.
Depends on when contracts are signed. They've said they will fulfil contracts (and hopefully the libs aren't arses and just go sign a bunch of stuff now), but anything beyond that they'll be looking at fttp.
There are no HFC design/build contracts signed yet for the Optus HFC only areas, as far as I am aware. Only Telstra HFC footprint HFC design/build HFC contracts have been signed. There has been complete silence on the previously reported NBNCo Singtel Optus equivalent ones. Now that we are in caretaker mode, I think the Federal Coalition has lost their chance to sign the Optus HFC ones.
In any case the question mark hanging over what to do with the Optus only HFC areas from the leaked NBN Co Optus HFC report, needs to be resolved first, before NBN Co awards any contracts for the Optus HFC only areas earmarked for NBN HFC.
looking at fttp
Good, it's what should've been done in the first place. Relief when Labor gets back in next month that FTTP will be back on the table. Telstra is the devil reincarnate and I hope Labor has nothing to do with them when they get back in power.
Only Telstra HFC footprint HFC design/build HFC contracts have been signed
I am in a telstra HFC area (well, we have both, but I beleive their plan was to use telstra where possible) but first built is currently H2/17, so hopefully that puts it far enough out that nothing has really happened yet...
There are no HFC design/build contracts signed yet for the Optus HFC only areas, as far as I am aware.
but the first HFC area to go live will be in Optus areas on June 30, so some level of design and construction must have been done.
It may of course not be a "full on" contract, just a specific area contract.
It would also be interesting to see if the "design and construct" signed with Telstra is limited to Telstra HFC or also includes the Optus HFC.
I fear it might, that would permit the mix and matching and cross patching of areas, with the appropriate needed equipment changes of course
the first HFC area to go live will be in Optus areas on June 30, so some level of design and construction must have been done.
It may of course not be a "full on" contract, just a specific area contract.
It would also be interesting to see if the "design and construct" signed with Telstra is limited to Telstra HFC or also includes the Optus HFC.
The following was reported 2 months ago.
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
NBN is expected to announce a similar contract with Optus for its own HFC network, which the network builder similarly gained access to under the revised definitive agreements.
That was the last I can recall we ever heard about the Singtel Optus agreement with NBN Co side of the equation.
Your questions are valid and something I am surprised that no-one appears to have put to NBN Co publicly as yet.
And this brings us back to: why even bother with HFC? If you are running aerial leads, its almost just as cheap to run the fibre.
Yes but they you're admitting Labor actually had a half decent plan, which clearly the Libs are not going to do.
From jxeeno:
http://blog.jxeeno.co
The Labor party today released its NBN policy, just three weeks out from polling day. The party has pledged to ensure around 2 million more homes and businesses will get Fibre to the Premises (rather than Fibre to the Node) � but will retain the HFC portion of the network. ... but one may wonder why the Labor party will not also pledge to move some of the HFC premises to Fibre to the Premises. Further, why only shift 2 million premises to fibre? That�s because of one word: contracts.
So even if the Labor party did pull the pin on the HFC network, not only will the NBN be liable for terminating contracts worth billions � it may also have to maintain a network HFC network (with Foxtel will continue to use) effectively for free even though NBN themselves won�t use it. Now that, would be absolute absurdity.
That pretty much says it all. Royal Commission anyone? To me the binding DA deal with Telstra in regards to HFC alone should warrant this, I guess that is for another thread ... sorry.
EDIT: Especially since it seems to be easier to pull away from FTTN which has been going gangbusters since Sept 2015 but not HFC where the product has not even been released yet and no premises even connected let alone at RFS!
The problem is as I understand it, the nbn has ordered hundreds of millions of dollars worth of HFC OSP from Arriss + signed a 1.6 Billion dollar deal with Telstra to upgrade the HFC.
Sunk cost fallacy.
Sunk cost fallacy.
It certainly is, but the problem is that the chance of convincing the public of that is approximately nil.
Sunk cost fallacy
Sure, but knowing the libs way of doing things, they've already handed over a huge check.
Sunk cost fallacy.
I don't view it as a fallacy, the costs are sunk, and to a population that has been bullied by the bajillions of dollars scare campaigns, one that is quite effective. Honestly the biggest unknown is the 1.6billion Telstra HFC deployment deal. It is possible it was signed without an exit strategy where the penalty for exit from the contract is $1.6b, is that really something we want to sink for no reason? Obviously we don't know what the deployment deal entails, but it may very well be that they have had it leaked to them, and it was one of the documents that NBN Co were looking for in Conroy's office.
I don't view it as a fallacy, the costs are sunk
The sunk cost fallacy is that you should view money already spent as important to the decision making process of what to do next, instead of acting rationally and deciding just based on the future costs and expected benefits of the various options.
The quintessential illustration of the sunk cost fallacy is hotel rooms � if the room has a normal retail price of $100 you might be reticent to rent it out for $50 when that room's contribution to fixed cost (purchase or rent of the premises, etc) is $60 per night... the rational analysis shows that if it costs you $20 extra to have the room occupied rather than idle (for cleaning, electricity, wear and tear, etc.) then $50 a night is better than nothing.
In other words, the equipment purchases are irrelevant to the discussion of how best to go forward � if it is cheaper to deploy FTTP and leave the HFC gear to rot (assuming you can't break the contract or resell it) then that should be done... the problem is convincing the public that that doesn't represent a waste of money, which could be impossible given a hostile media and a government who happily lie to get and maintain power.
Honestly the biggest unknown is the 1.6billion Telstra HFC deployment deal
As indicated by the Analysys Mason document the current NBN HFC design is only good for 2020 and that I assume was for post- co-existence, during the co-existence period the upstream capacity on 3 channels and offering 100/40 plans is a bit of a joke. Of course it is stated NBN intend to deploy D3.1 but without moving the upstream bandwith up I am not sure how much of a performance increase that will provide and how much of the increase is dependent on the quality of the HFC plant. Are the current Telstra HFC upgrades pre-Build and NBN contracts to Telstra for the Build to make it ready for D3.1 or will NBN need to spend more money to avoid the 2020 crunch predicted by Analysys Mason?
It is possible it was signed without an exit strategy where the penalty for exit from the contract is $1.6b, is that really something we want to sink for no reason?
Sunk costs can be written off but but not recurring and unproductive liabilities. As jxeeno has pointed out it is lunacy to have NBN maintain all of the Telsta HFC network for Foxtel while overbuilding it with FTTP, that just won't happen. The only salvation is if the Telstra Definitive Agreements with HFC have a loophole which the government can exercise (if the DAs are with NBNCo maybe the government simply needs to dissolve NBN and all agreements with them will be rendered null and void? Here's dreaming anyway ....)
The sunk cost fallacy is that you should view money already spent as important to the decision
and if you look at my post I hit both sides of it, the costs are sunk there is no debate, and that the general populous has been bullied into believing that $2billion of waste is bad. I've also done in the past month in another post to Raoul the comparison of costs reverse engineered from the leaked documents that show the difference is about 2 billion in favour of FTTP for capex+opex, but 1 billion in favour of HFC once revenue is taken into account (because of service activation earlier in the process for HFC), anything more than $2b puts the capex+opex in favour of HFC, and any extra cost at all without extra revenue puts HFC in favour for TCO. The cost is sunk, and any attempt to ditch the network leaves NBN Co with a liability that they just don't need right now.
saltspork please keep monitoring the spectrum and let us know when D1.1 disappears in your area.
This morning.
This morning.
Does this mean upgrades are already happening?
What area are you in?
What area are you in?
And is it one of the areas in the Telstra NBN RFS XLS (see whrl.pl/ReDPam) ?
EDIT: What is important is the D1.1 US spectrum which of course can't be seen/measured, I assume that was cleared when the DS spectrum disappeared.
EDIT 2: I note in your other post that you noticed your SNR improving, will the opposite happen when NBN take over (using up more of the DS and US spectrum)?
Did anyone else notice Shorten's mention of keeping High Frequency Coax during the NBN discussion on Q&A last night!
Did anyone else notice Shorten's mention of keeping High Frequency Coax during the NBN discussion on Q&A last night!
Well we noticed it yesterday in the ALP NBN policy document so you wouldn't think Shorten would contradict his own policy!
Did anyone else notice Shorten's mention of keeping High Frequency Coax during the NBN discussion on Q&A last night!
I did and I was impressed � he has some grasp of the technologies involved.
Much more so than "I'm not a tech head" Abbott ever did.
And is it one of the areas in the Telstra NBN RFS XLS (see whrl.pl/ReDPam) ?
My area is not even on the 3 year plan, at this rate we will be among the last to receive any form of NBN.
I believe the same D1.1 CMTS also served the Unley area (5GUG) listed as being RFS on the 1st of October.
What is important is the D1.1 US spectrum which of course can't be seen/measured, I assume that was cleared when the DS spectrum disappeared.
All upstream transmissions come from cable modems. Even if there a few D1.1 modems physically connected to the network they will not be transmitting, no downstream carriers = no upstream parameters = no upstream transmissions.
I note in your other post that you noticed your SNR improving, will the opposite happen when NBN take over (using up more of the DS and US spectrum)?
It improved by a small amount (~1dB), what caught my attention was that it was a small but sharp increase at the time of D1.1 shutdown rather than the usual smooth 24h variation due to temperature.
The set of ED3.0 carriers my modem is locked onto is immediately adjacent to the old D1.1 carriers, so the noise floor would have dropped after shutdown.
Out of interest, how did you scan your cable connection?
Poor man's spectrum analyser: a $10 USB DVB-T dongle with a RTL2832U chipset. This can dump raw I/Q data, making it useful for all kinds of low-end software defined radio stuff.
Connecting it in-line with my modem is as simple as using a 2-way splitter, F to MCX pigtail and an F-to-F joiner to keep things neat. All of this is from eBay, save for the splitter which Telstra supply with their modems. https://i.imgur.com/tlHeGa2.jpg
I run rtl_power on Linux to scan the whole spectrum, and MS Excel to plot it (since I'm lazy). I normalise this scan against a scan of a 75 ohm terminator to try and clean it up a bit.
None of this gear is approved for connection to the HFC network, I only connect it for short periods of time and at my own risk.
Poor man's spectrum analyser: a $10 USB DVB-T dongle with a RTL2832U chipset. This can dump raw I/Q data, making it useful for all kinds of low-end software defined radio stuff.
They have to be one of the greatest devices ever made. I see them popping up all over the place doing tasks that I bet the designers would never have even conceived of.
How linear is the scan of the 75 ohm terminator?
How linear is the scan of the 75 ohm terminator?
https://i.imgur.com/eE0yhyu.png
Not exactly a precision instrument.
Will something be announced today re:hfc launch?
http://www.nbnco.com.au/corp
nbn�s first commercial Hybrid Fibre Coaxial (HFC) services are today available to Retail Service Providers in Redcliffe, QLD with some 18,800 premises now Ready for Service (RFS) and ready for Retail Service Providers to connect customers to the nbn� network in the area.
nbn�s first commercial Hybrid Fibre Coaxial (HFC) services are today available to Retail Service Providers in Redcliffe, QLD with some 18,800 premises now Ready for Service (RFS)
How many can order a service and how many rsps are there?
How many can order a service and how many rsps are there?
Random address checks on the NBNCo website around Redcliffe QLD for non- MDU's get the response build commenced Construction of the nbn� network has started in your area. and are not yet in the Service available category.
Let's see if that changes by tomorrow.
how many rsps are there?
As many as have bothered to go through the NBN set-up process for HFC billing etc, which right now is probably very few.
which right now is probably very few.
Optus and Telstra and maybe iinet is my guess.
Optus and Telstra and maybe iinet is my guess.
i read somewhere exetel is also on the trial.
Why should we believe that the NBNCo HFC in Redcliffe QLD is RFS on the basis of a media release from NBN Co today, when the source of truth NBN Co Website Address Checker, says they are not yet Ready for Service and are still under construction?
Another communications stuff up at NBN Co?
Why should we believe that the NBNCo HFC in Redcliffe QLD is RFS on the basis of a media release from NBN Co today, when the source of truth NBN Co Website Address Checker, says they are not yet Ready for Service and are still under construction?
i would guess that the website is little behind and will be updated ASAP � possibly not unitl after the election as they may be a little "gun shy" of breeching caretaker conventions after ziggy's screw up earlier in the campaign.
Why should we believe that the NBNCo HFC in Redcliffe QLD is RFS on the basis of a media release from NBN Co today, when the source of truth NBN Co Website Address Checker, says they are not yet Ready for Service and are still under construction?
The address checker certainly isn't the "source of truth". Anecdotally, a couple of local areas (FTTP and FTTN) took roughly a week after RFS to show up in the address checker's database. It's not updated daily, let alone in real-time.
i would guess that the website is little behind and will be updated ASAP
whrl.pl/ReEMie
A poster in the NBN Redcliffe HFC thread this morning got told by Telstra today to call back in a week to place an order for their allegedly RFS NBN HFC service.
The address checker certainly isn't the "source of truth". Anecdotally, a couple of local areas (FTTP and FTTN) took roughly a week after RFS to show up in the address checker's database. It's not updated daily
Why not?
i would guess that the website is little behind and will be updated ASAP � possibly not unitl after the election as they may be a little "gun shy" of breeching caretaker conventions after ziggy's screw up earlier in the campaign.
Then why bother even putting out the media release today on the NBN HFC?
Surely it could have waited until 3 July 2016.
Then why bother even putting out the media release today on the NBN HFC?
Surely it could have waited until 3 July 2016.
Because then people would have a whinge about them missing the H1-2016 target by 3 days.
poster in the NBN Redcliffe HFC thread this morning got told by Telstra today to call back in a week to place an order for their allegedly RFS NBN HFC service.
See /forum-replies.cfm?t=2382403&p=5 for proff that both TPG and Optus are now 100% proven to be currently taking online orders for NBN HFC in Redcliffe QLD area.
TPG still with no 50/20 speed tier
iinet and Telstra not yet.
Source of truth for RFS, is whether you can online order from RSP website. RFS it is for Redcliffe QLD confirmed.
Another NBN Co target achieved.
As many as have bothered to go through the NBN set-up process for HFC billing etc, which right now is probably very few.
The competition benefits of a multi technology mix are great, aren't they...
So when can the rest of us Telstra HFC customers get a 100/40 service?
Is there actual physical work needed to open up the upstream channel speeds?
I'm on the case here whrl.pl/ReEMLG
So when can the rest of us Telstra HFC customers get a 100/40 service?
Be careful what you wish for. If your Telstra HFC connection works fine for you now, and the 2.4Mbps upload issue isn't a major problem for you, let other people be guinea pigs and let the dust settle first.
When I first got my HFC connection last year, it would do 100Mbps down and 2.4Mbps up only in the early hours of the morning. Most of the time during the day it would sit between 50Mbps and 70Mbps. This is when Telstra were using QAM64 on 8 channels downstream . Since November 2015 my area has been upgraded to QAM256 and I think the new Arris hardware has also been installed. Since then I have QAM256 on 16 channels downstream and I have a stable 100Mbps to 115Mbps all day every day. Sure the 2.4Mbps upload is a pain, but not a major issue for my use case. The stable download speed sees me downloading steady between 12MB/s to 14MB/s as long as the source server is up to it (Steam and MSDN certainly are).
Now onto the NBN co with the leaked slides which showed the hardware that they will be using for NBN co HFC connections. They will be using a different range of spectrum to coexist with Telstra and Foxtel. The hardware the NBN co is proposing to use is only good for 8 bonded downstream channels while Telstra's current C6300BD can utilize 16 bonded channels. The more channels you have, the more spectrum available for you to use, the less chance of congestion.
Think about this, on the Telstra network, Cable uptake is probably not that high. There are probably more premises not using Cable for internet in a Telstra HFC area than premises using it. Telstra have less usage over more channels. NBN co will have more useage over less channels.
Sure there are other factors that affect HFC performance/congestion potential than the number of bonded channels use and the number of premises passed. I am not a HFC expert of any sorts, but I have spoken to a few regarding this, and also contacted NBN co about their hardware choice, which their response was "yes, congestion may happen, tough, if you don't like it then stay with Telstra until the end of the 18 month coexistence period, and then after than just suck it up."
At the end of the day, I am happy to pay Telstra a bit more money, for a bit longer, to have a stable and working connection, while others play Russian Roulette with NBN co HFC.
hey folks,
apparently NBN Co are texting/emailing/letterbox dropping in Redcliffe to let local people know about the HFC cable availability.
Can anyone in the area confirm this?
You can post here, drop me a line at renai@delimiter.com.au or contact me through Delimiter's anonymous tips form.
For an article for tomorrow morning.
Mods, feel free to delete this post if you feel it's inappropriate etc.
Cheers!
Renai
Editor + Publisher
Delimiter
Phg, that Optus document is not specific to HFC and you have no evidence to draw any conclusions.
So what MTM technologies does that document apply to then?
Why if Optus are taking NBN HFC orders for the last 12 days, does this document not apply to HFC as well?
Show me the document from Optus that does apply to NBN HFC equipment?
Why would Optus withhold the NBN HFC equivalent of that document?
Do you really think Optus is that incompetent that they don't already have info, instructions and FAQ ready for NBN HFC equipment and loaded on their website?
There's an official Optus rep in the Optus EPL Rights Thread?
How long is it going to take before Optus commit at least 1 Official rep clear up some of the issues with the launch of the HFC?
So what MTM technologies does that document apply to then?
It's just for FTTP � the terminology and pictures make that clear.
It's just for FTTP � the terminology and pictures make that clear.
Yet the words FTTP, FTTH, FTTB, FTTN or the longer version of them, do not appear anywhere in the booklet.
Only clear to the experts.
Wasn't clear to me when I skimmed through the doc.
Pretty sure the document is for FTTP. The hint is on page 8.
This is where the �state-of-the-art� fibre optic cable from the street hooks up to your home.
This is where the �state-of-the-art� fibre optic cable from the street hooks up to your home.
Well spotted. However, I'm punting on NBNCo intending to have the one document to cover both HFC and FTTP, and they missed that reference to "fibre optic cable" in the Jan 2016 document I referred to. (date is in the footer).
Interestingly, the diagrams for NBN Cable and NBN Fibre at the below link are almost identical and both have the last 2 legs as the NBN utility box (external wall) and the NBN utility box (internal).
http://www.optus.
We'll find out soon enough with Optus already taking orders for NBN HFC in the Redcliffe QLD area.
My my.
Telstra systems in the Redcliffe QLD area, today, are reporting premises that according to Optus and TPG are NBN HFC orderable, and that were yesterday ADSL orderable, as
BROADBAND MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA
You'd think that Telstra could have bothered to add a comment that NBN HFC is coming soon to those properties affected.
Or maybe there is some technical issue, or dispute between NBNCo and Telstra holding things up, that may not be resolved in the near future.
Todays announcement covers just the Telstra HFC footprint, with Telstra managing the 6 Telstra HFC contractors (to roll out HFC, FTTX and other MTM solutions in the Telstra HFC footprint).
Complete silence on the Optus HFC footprint (where Telstra HFC is not available),
that is particularly prevalent in large swathes of NSW.
14 July 2016
Key points:
nbn signs Multi-technology Integrated Master Agreements (MIMAs) with Delivery Partners
The agreements enable the construction of the nbn� network to homes and businesses in the Telstra HFC footprint
Six Delivery Partners announced following a competitive contract sourcing process: Lend Lease, Broadspectrum, Fulton Hogan, Downer, ISGM and BSA
nbn has today signed contracts with six Delivery Partners to deliver the nbn� network to homes and businesses across the Telstra HFC footprint within Australia.
Following a multi-stage contract sourcing process, nbn has appointed Lend Lease, Broadspectrum, Fulton Hogan, Downer, ISGM and BSA to carry out the construction of the nbn� network across the Telstra HFC footprint. In June, nbn launched its HFC product on the former Optus network in Redcliffe QLD, with customers now joining the nbn� network on the final MTM technology.
The deployment of the nbn� network within the Telstra HFC footprint leverages the existing Telstra cable-TV network to the premises, enabling the network to be deployed quickly and cost effectively. Premises will be primarily connected to nbn�s upgraded HFC technology, however, they will also be connected via deployment of a multi-technology mix (MTM) solution.
nbn Chief Network Engineering Officer Peter Ryan said: �The nbn� network is now available to more than 2.6 million homes and businesses around Australia. With this additional work from our Delivery Partners the HFC network will be deployed at scale to enable nbn to meet its 2020 targets.
�With this process we have ensured the most appropriate Delivery Partners are doing the work. They have enormous experience in construction in the telecommunications industry which will help us roll it out faster.
�Under the HFC Delivery Agreement announced in April 2016, Telstra will manage the MIMA Delivery Partners in the construction of the network within the Telstra HFC footprint. Telstra�s management of the MIMA Delivery Partners will be undertaken in close consultation with nbn,� said Mr Ryan.
Fast broadband is now being made available across the country through the HFC network and we encourage people to check their address on the nbn website. The HFC network will deliver wholesale speeds up to 100Mbps download and 40Mbps upload.
Why are we waiting?
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
NBN Co is similarly progressively taking over ownership of Optus' HFC network � which spans around 400,000 premises � but that infrastructure is not included as part of this latest deal. The network builder is still in discussions with Optus about the build of its HFC network.
http://www.computerworld.com
NBN Co is similarly progressively taking over ownership of Optus' HFC network � which spans around 400,000 premises � but that infrastructure is not included as part of this latest deal. The network builder is still in discussions with Optus about the build of its HFC network.
NBN Co is similarly progressively taking over ownership of Optus' HFC network � which spans around 400,000 premises � but that infrastructure is not included as part of this latest deal. The network builder is still in discussions with Optus about the build of its HFC network.
Just remember, three years ago, this was a plan, fully costed and ready to go.
Essentially, its three years of stuffing around, that if FTTP was left to run, would have installed an extra 2 million premises.
http://www.zdnet.com/article
The NBN successfully completed its 4,500 premises HFC trial in Redcliffe, Queensland earlier this year, saying at the time it was able to deliver download speeds of up to 100Mbps and upload speeds of up to 40Mbps, with average speeds of 84Mbps down/33Mbps up. The trial saw retail service providers (RSPs) Telstra, iiNet, and Exetel deliver HFC services across the Optus HFC networking running DOCSIS 3.0 technology.
Average speeds on the NBN HFC that just went RFS in Redcliffe area, better be averaging 85/33 during peak periods over the next 18 months, or whoever is peddling the 85/33 on a 4,500 premise trial is going to have egg on their faces.
Can someone please confirm whether there were actually 4,500 premise that had working HFC to the premise on this trial and what happened to there connections at the end of the trial? Particularly since not 1 of these alleged 4,500 premise occupants posted anything about the trial speeds on whirpool.
Here's the Ovum Redcliffe HFC Pilot review report.
Figure 1 below shows the trial area and location (just north of Brisbane Airport). Within the trial area
there are 18,881 premises and a potential HFC base of 4,500 premises (all lead-ins are aerial).
So there were not 4,500 trial users. There were up to 4,500 trial users.
Exactly how many actual trials users were there?
Or was there no-one actually using the internet at the up to 4,500 premise on these trials.
The Layer-3 speeds recorded for the nbn Redcliffe HFC 100/40 pilot service averaged at 84
Mbps downstream and 33 Mbps upstream (based on test data from 1 Dec 2015 � 20 Jan 2016).
The average download and upload speeds across 4 time of day periods is shown in Figure 4
below.
It should be remembered that the 84/33Mbps speeds were delivered over RSP networks at
Layer-3 so were subject to various external factors not controllable by nbn and resulted in a lower
speed than would be delivered over a Layer-2 nbn connection.
The trial was Layer 3 speeds, which are higher than customers will receive.
Really?
Is that common? And $2200 for the whole block (like 64 units?) or more for that...
3 units. Unit 1 and 2 were OK at one point to pay the $~750, but Unit 2 is moving out and no longer cares. And we'd feel guilty forcing unit 3 to pay a ~$750 "nothing" payment, when he wouldn't use foxtel/telstra cable. So either wait and play NodeLotto, or pony up the $2200 myself (not really willing to do that).
Problem is, there are no free "vampire taps" left. If i were the only house on the block, then maybe they'd do something about it, but their M.O. is to provide a service to all 3 units, at our cost. Need to use a cherry picker and a few other things, apparently.
NBN Co is similarly progressively taking over ownership of Optus' HFC network � which spans around 400,000 premises � but that infrastructure is not included as part of this latest deal. The network builder is still in discussions with Optus about the build of its HFC network.
Strange...because construction seems to have just started in 2MIR (Optus only HFC):
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2547232
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2547463
So who is doing the build here?
Strange...because construction seems to have just started in 2MIR (Optus only HFC):
So who is doing the build here?
Probably the same builders that did Redcliffe area QLD NBN HFC which mostly went RFS 30 June 2016.
Which was...? Optus? Redcliffe was a trial so makes more sense that it would be done without a formal agreement in place.
http://www.itnews.com.au/ne
NBN Co is similarly progressively taking over ownership of Optus' HFC network � which spans around 400,000 premises � but that infrastructure is not included as part of this latest deal. The network builder is still in discussions with Optus about the build of its HFC network.
I can think of a number of reasons why neither Optus or NBNCo is maybe in any hurry to move forwards on much of the Optus only Segments of the HFC.
1. Optus has just launched it's EPL (English Soccer) service. Optus would likely have >50% market share of Fixed Line Broadband in most of the Optus only HFC footprint. Whilst Optus is the only retailer of HFC in the HFC Optus only footprint, it is banking on locking in existing HFC customers and gaining new ones whilst it has a monopoly in the fixed line footprint during the 1st year of it's EPL services.
2. NBNCo and Optus are watching to see how the Redcliffe area QLD HFC NBN (ex Optus only HFC network) pans out (went RFS 30 June 2016) before deciding how much of the rest of the Optus only HFC Network areas will be designed for NBN HFC, as opposed to some other form of MTM technology. How it pans out on a number of fronts including
- Optus market share of retail customers
- takeup/activation rates
- speed, latency, reliability of network for retail customers
- migration issues
- activation/maintenance/operating/upgrade costs
3. Whether to only upgrade Optus HFC only areas maybe straight to HFC Docsis 3.1 (when it is ready), where the decision is made to keep using the Optus HFC at all. Meantime, MDU's that are not going to get HFC in any shape or form in Optus only HFC footprint can start to get their FTTN/B or other solution ASAP, without waiting for Docsis 3.1.
Figure 1 below shows the trial area and location (just north of Brisbane Airport). Within the trial area
there are 18,881 premises and a potential HFC base of 4,500 premises (all lead-ins are aerial).
So there were not 4,500 trial users. There were up to 4,500 trial users.
Exactly how many actual trials users were there?
Or was there no-one actually using the internet at the up to 4,500 premise on these trials.
Found the answer from Delimiter's truth paywalled article. It was on p3 of the ovum report on the trial all along.
The pilot is being conducted on the Optus HFC network running DOCSIS 3.0 technology and is
currently running tests across approximately twenty end users.
20 end users
20 end users
20 end users
Got that. 20 end users only. Not 4,500, Not 100, not event 50. Just 20.
Yet ZDnet today refers to it as The 4,500-premises HFC trial in Redcliffe, Queensland Flapping unbelievable.
The pilot is being conducted on the Optus HFC network running DOCSIS 3.0 technology and is
currently running tests across approximately twenty end users.
https://delimiter.com.au/201
in what is essentially a clean lab trial of a tiny amount of 20 users, in idealised conditions, the NBN company simply cannot deliver the 100Mbps broadband speeds it has been promising over the HFC cable networks.
only 20 users trialled according to Delimiter
When you consider that the trial only covered 20 users, you get a feel for how large the magnitude of this problem is. This many users means that during peak periods, average download speeds sank by a total 500kbps PER USER ON THE NETWORK.
The NBN company is planning on packing many people into each HFC cable running down streets � far more than 20. The results it has released so far show that this would be a disaster, with congestion grinding the network to a crawl at night. Within the Redcliffe area alone, there are almost 19,000 premises, with some 4,500 of those slated to use HFC.
It�s easy to say that this issue would be resolved in a real-world HFC cable deployment, because more capacity could be provisioned along the network. We�ve seen how this has already resolved some of the early issues on the NBN company�s Fibre to the Node network. But the truth is that things won�t be so easy in reality.
There you have it folks.
Which was...? Optus? Redcliffe was a trial so makes more sense that it would be done without a formal agreement in place.
CiC
So, would this mean someone who is on HFC in an area that is under construction for FTTN could remain on HFC?
So, would this mean someone who is on HFC in an area that is under construction for FTTN could remain on HFC?
You can remain on HFC with Telstra or Optus up to 18 months after the RFS in your area but if you want access on NBN you will have to use FTTN.
You can remain on HFC with Telstra or Optus up to 18 months after the RFS in your area but if you want access on NBN you will have to use FTTN.
What I expected, but it doesnt make sense in relation to the announcement today in relation to "deploy HFC network at scale" and then move people to FTTN where HFC is already working fine.
When you say per 900/ 1200 premises, is that the maximum speed on that entire run of HFC?
Yes, that's correct. Well, more specifically, that's the maximum speed on that entire run of coax. Each optical node in an HFC network (where fibre stops and coax begins) services hundreds of premises. That's why it's easy for people to get excited when they hear that DOCSIS 3.1 can achieve gigabit speeds etc, because they don't realise that in order to achieve these speeds you would have to be the only customer connected to a node. The reality is that the gigabit (or potentially several gigabits) is shared between hundreds of premises. Doesn't sound so great now, does it?
The only alarming thing is that untrustworthy information keeps getting repeated.
I take it he's incorrect then? That would honestly be slower than existing HFC installs to my knowledge.
Someone in the other thread where I asked said that because I'm in a 21 block of flats, we'll probably get a "microcode"
Although from the pics of my comms equipment, http://imgur.com/a/V2L0V you can see the cabling we've got isn't ideal in the slightest, but at least it would be only about 50 metres.
The reality is that the gigabit (or potentially several gigabits) is shared between hundreds of premises. Doesn't sound so great now, does it?
It sounds ridiculous, surely we're missing something here.
I know that "NBN 2.0" by the libs is a disaster fraud band mess, sure. However to offer less speeds than what we previously had is illogical.
Even 4Gbit shared by 80 properties is only 50Mbit each, barely more than the 30MBit many people seem to get on fibre on average.
Remember, at the time it was rolled out it was primarily for Pay TV rather then broadband access.
Yep, it's clearly not designed for the purpose for which it is now being put.
However to offer less speeds than what we previously had is illogical.
You have to bear in mind that not every customer is utilising the connection at the same time. Which explains why it's easy to achieve 100Mbps during the day, when most people are at work, but in the evenings when a greater proportion are using their connections (and often streaming movies etc) it can slow to 5Mbps give or take, depending on how congested an area is. The NBN plan is to add nodes, thereby reducing the number of premises per node. But their target is something like 500 premises per node, so you don't need a PhD in mathematics to realise that it's a poor solution.
But their target is something like 500 premises per node, so you don't need a PhD in mathematics to realise that it's a poor solution.
384 Lines per Node on a 1gbit backhaul fibre connection.
Which means if utilisation during peak hour is, then each line will only receive:
100% � 2.6mbit
50% � 5.2mbit
25% � 10.4mbit
10% � 25.6mbit
If I remember correctly, the FTTP contention was like 32:1 on a 2.4gbit connection which meant that even at 100% utilisation, you would still get 75mbit as a minimum.
What even sucks more: YOU STILL HAVE TO PAY THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY FOR THE CONNECTION.
384 Lines per Node on a 1gbit backhaul fibre connection.
Yep, but this thread is about HFC not FTTN.
How both suppliers manage to miss some streets/sections of a given suburb yet overlap so much seems totally random. Was this a planning or access issue from way back when or some other metric?
Optus ignored us due to the underground power and PSTN in our section of the suburb, who knows why Telstra ignored us.
In your (our) case djOS, the non HFC portions of Kilsyth (3CRO) are destined for FTTN in "H2 2017" assuming anything stays on track
Yeah I got that from finder.com too.
I'm just so cheesed of that there where just enuf dumb idiots who fell for mal's trickle down economic b.s. That Australia is now condemned to be a broadband backwater � it's really going to hurt this country in the long run!
If I remember correctly, the FTTP contention was like 32:1 on a 2.4gbit connection which meant that even at 100% utilisation, you would still get 75mbit as a minimum.
Exactly right, the physical network contention on both HFC and FTTN is just horrendous!
The only alarming thing is that untrustworthy information keeps getting repeated.
Ok, please cite your sources that say otherwise.
The figures I mention, are not untrustworthy, the come direct from the officially released Analysis Mason report, 2016. This is the most accurate figures we have to go off, and provide a clear summary of the network planning. I have not misrepresented them � just pulled them directly from the report. The report is provided curtesy of NBN, and the ACCC.
When you say per 900/ 1200 premises, is that the maximum speed on that entire run of HFC?
So hypothetically if 4 blocks of houses are serviced by one 'loop' of HFC and there's 900 houses in that 4 blocks that means they'd all be sharing a mere 832mbit?
or does it mean for each string off the street there's 832mbit to play with, so a block of 21 flats serviced by 832mbit would be 39mbit per house?
Yes, 832mb down and 83 mb up is for 900 premises. That isnt 900 houses. Thats 900 premises connected. (Not every house will connect.)
900 premises per segment is the RFS target. This is planned to be cut to 500 premises at 18 months.
Your flats will be on a segment shared with at least a few hundred other homes.
The figures I mention, are not untrustworthy,
Since the report concerned has been pulled to pieces here, by numerous posters on numerous occasions for significant inaccuracies, it is clearly not trustworthy at all.
Since the report concerned has been pulled to pieces here, by numerous posters on numerous occasions for significant inaccuracies, it is clearly not trustworthy at all.
For the first 18 months, the bandwidth will not be higher than the figures I've quoted. There is simple no extra available bandwidth. The only option is to reduce the number of subscribers per segment. However, the report is quite clear of a 900 subscriber segment target at RFS with a reduction to 500 at 18 months.
The report has been pulled to pieces based on these numbers. Its going to be a capacity constrained nightmare. But � thats was MTM was designed to achieve. Keep bandwidth an artificially restricted commodity � and then charge accordingly for it.
For the first 18 months, the bandwidth will not be higher than the figures I've quoted.
The report is not trustworthy, no matter which way it is spun. It is simply naive to keep quoting its numbers as if they are some sort of gospel.
The report is not trustworthy
What numbers are you disputing? The number of premises per optical node, or something else?
https://www.dslreports.com/f
May help with nodes and spectrum talk?
First docsis 3.1 trial users in Murica.
The report is not trustworthy, no matter which way it is spun. It is simply naive to keep quoting its numbers as if they are some sort of gospel.
Why are you so scared of the report? Does it show HFC as configured in a less than desirable light?
Its the official NBN report. Its the best advice we have. An on that official advice, I maintain that HFC is a near waste of time � and should never have been committed to the mix.
HFC can provide reasonable connections that would suit internet use for now � see Geelong, Ballarat etc. However, in our case, its not worth the cost given the limitations. And the big limitation is Foxtel. But that limitation was built in by design. It wasnt an accident that the Liberals had their FTTP destroying NBN policy launch at Foxtel Studios.
May help with nodes and spectrum talk?
First docsis 3.1 trial users in Murica.
And if you live near their FTTP footprint, they'll give you 2Gbs up and down via FTP for the same price.
And if you live near their FTTP footprint, they'll give you 2Gbs up and down via FTP for the same price.
or as I like to say
http://arstechnica.com/in
re-mortgage your house for docsis 1gbps speeds!
In a rental, just had a Commercial quote done to have HFC installed to the building (old house cut into 4 units). There is HFC in the street, as far as I can tell most if not all other houses in the street have it.
With NBN announcing more money being spent on the MTM/HFC network to do installations and upgrades (don't have article link but I can find it), is it likely NBN would do a new install to our block of flats?
The Telstra commercial quote came in around $4,000 to run HFC from the street, to a central distribution point in the building, then run 1 cable from there to each of the apartments. The installer also said it'd likely require some driveway to be dug up.
If this is something NBNCo would be covering, I'd tell the landlords in the building to hold off, if not and it'll likely be a user-pay install like Bigpond HFC now, there isn't really a point in them holding off, if the strata votes it through.
Yes, by "batteries" I was referring to adding batteries and inverters to Telstra's transformers in the same manner that Optus have.
000 calls will use whichever mobile network is available
These devices don't call 000, at least in the first instance.
Yes, by "batteries" I was referring to adding batteries and inverters to Telstra's transformers in the same manner that Optus have.
The point is � that all the reviews conducted by Turnbull as communications minister were a sham. They haven't reviewed a critical use of our telecommunications network. There's been no discussion on this point � and its going to be a big issue. For many older Australians, the new network is NOT fit for purpose.
nbn are sending their techs to install the cable modem and also check signal levels are optimal for nbn HFC � this is even if no lead-in work is required. Is this prudent, or just a more costly/slow things down kind of approach?
Don't worry it won't last:
http://blog.jxeeno.com/
I maintain, 80 or so Mbs � minus whats allocated for TC-1 traffic, is not enough upload for 900 premises. Hell, the 813mbs download for 900 premises isn't enough. And that's not premises passed. That's premises connected.
This problem cannot be understated here, as the facts of the matter are that WebRTC which is but one, of a number of � now commercialised disruptive technologies IS changing dramatically, how people communicate with � "upload" ability, becoming an absolute necessity.
80Mbps for 900 users is a complete joke --- given those consigned to using EOL (End of Life) HFC will increasingly switch from obsolete phones even with TC-1 to WebRTC , � which I might add � is now enabled on every web browser on the planet that I know of eg Windows Edge, Google, Firefox etc.
The sad fact is that you actually need a reliable and solid Internet connection on which to run WebRTC-based video sessions with both upload and download equally important on which to deliver its services � and here its obvious that HFC simply doesn't deliver it.
*Noting of course that we've already seen congestion issues with the streaming services of Netflix, Stan etc � however the impact that WebRTC will have, given it is not just a single delivery stream being downloaded � but rather requires both Upload and Download for all of the following on a one to one connection eg :-
a) Audio and Video,
b) Screen sharing Stream and
c) Video Stream coming from a second Webcam -----
And this is then further compounded as you move from a one to one connection and increase the number of users to "many to many " --- all of which increases substantively the bandwidth requirements.
We are already witnessing, what happens when Network capacity and congestion meet their finite limits � in which the current crop of Telstra outages are imo testament to that fact � where the network begins spending more time administering network traffic rather than delivering it, due to congestion or whatever associated reasons � at which point, we then see minor failures cascading into a systemic failure of the network.
Cheers
The first teething problems with NBN HFC (and it didn't take long):
whrl.pl/ReFJnv
I am on a battle axe block so the set up team apparently missed me and then everybody just assumed that I had a lead in.
Will this be a common problem with HFC?
Whereas FTTP requires all new lead-ins (every premises is checked and ticked off) and FTTN used all existing copper lead-ins (where there is a phone there is an FTTN connection, for the most part) with HFC you are neither here and there and if due diligence is not exercised premises can be completely missed.
Note that the above is an aerial HFC deployment area, this problem would I think be compounded with belowground HFC.
Will this be a common problem with HFC?
I reckon this will definitely be a problem on our street. It's a cul-de-sac where there are properties that are "behind" other properties. In fact, it's a battleaxe with two battleaxe side streets, LOL. E.g. the house that's "behind" my place is technically a subdiv of a property on one of the side streets.
And that's on top of the fact that I'm in a small MDU (7 units), so I don't even know how they're going to do leadins(?) for us.
Note that the above is an aerial HFC deployment area, this problem would I think be compounded with belowground HFC.
Then again we have this now coming to the fore!
The federal government is likely to face opposition over its proposal to increase the thickness of overhead cables erected as part of the national broadband network "to the size of your wrist" without requiring local or state planning approvals.
Under schedule three of the Telecommunications Act and related regulations, carriers currently have limited immunity from local, state and territory planning and environmental laws when installing overhead cables with a diameter of 30mm or less.
But in a consultation paper released by the Department of Communications late last week, the federal government proposed extending the exemptions, known as the low-impact facilities determination (LIFD), to cables with a diameter of up to 48mm, among other changes.
According to the discussion paper, NBN � the national network builder � has advised that in some HFC areas it will be necessary to piggy-back additional cables on existing overhead cable bundles as part of the network rollout.
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
I read somewhere on these forums that it will be FTTN infill for MDUs.
Makes sense � wiring coax from a central point to each unit in a complex is expensive. Far more expensive than wiring coax to a house from the street (usually). That makes putting a node in the basement (FTTB) far more cost effective if there are enough units for the node.
But for 3 units like yours it's much harder to determine. A private node is overkill (as is the relative value of bringing fibre to the basement, and often lack of space in MDU)
Better for NBN if they use a nearby node for the 3 connections � or if the wiring is easy add the coax. You won't know what they'll choose until the do it.
Makes sense � wiring coax from a central point to each unit in a complex is expensive. Far more expensive than wiring coax to a house from the street (usually). That makes putting a node in the basement (FTTB) far more cost effective if there are enough units for the node.
I really wouldn't mind that. The pit is off to the side of our shared driveway, barely 5m from my property at that point.
But for 3 units like yours it's much harder to determine. A private node is overkill (as is the relative value of bringing fibre to the basement, and often lack of space in MDU)
To my understanding, the commercial quote spoke of installing an 8 port tap in the street, then a 4 port tap in the pit. Even if I wanted it on my own as the front unit, the tech said there were no free ports available and work would be required regardless.
Anyway, I'm beyond done with hoping for HFC over FTTN. The best I can hope for is 25mbits on Fraudband, and anything more would be a lovely bonus. The copper is in really poor condition in my area too :(
My entire suburb is over 60% MDU configuration, with most people on normal blocks subscribing to overhead Telstra HFC.
The best I can hope for is 25mbits
I think it's okay to say that's the least you can hope for on DSL.
Best you cba hope for is probably 75Mbps.
And no one sensible would think that 3.27 a.m. is "Peak".
by "peak" they mean the top of the curve, the highest speed you get, not "peak" as in time of day
I've deleted my long reply. Let's not discuss FTTN speeds on the HFC thread.
Not much new in this article for the crowd here, but I thought I'd post a link to this ZD Net article about NBN's commitment to HFC:
http://www.zdnet.com/article
Personally, I'm very excited about full-duplex DOCSIS 3.1 (and yes I'm aware that it won't be commercial reality for another 6-7 years at least).
Paid advertising from NBN:
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
Network performance by HFC now rivals fibre platforms
which I guess logically leads to network performance by HFC that will in future be unrivaled by fibre platforms? Yay!
After 18 months:
500 subscribers per segment: 1220mbs down 192mbs up.
That makes 2.44 down and 0.384 up per subscriber. On NBN HFC.
Seriously?
The next NBH HFC to go RFS end of this week is:
https://www.finder.com.au
This will be most interesting as this is Telstra HFC which is all below ground here in WA. It also means once this area goes live all of the Telstra HFC residential network nationwide will be handed over to NBN won't it (i.e. Telstra will enter into a caretaker mode for its HFC)?
Are there really 75 providers (including 3 with names of Brisbane, Qld & Nth Qld!), each of them will probably have at least 3 available plans to choose from?
Or are there only 2 (Belong & TPG), because they're the only 2 that let you see plans?
Lol, my entire postcode is still listed as "No Service Info". The neighbouring postcode has had FTTP fully active since 2014. While the HFC that has been hanging from the poles for 20+ years is still an unknown...
500 subscribers per segment: 1220mbs down
That makes 2.44 down and 0.384 up per subscriber. On NBN HFC.
Seriously?
Yes while everyone prefers shared high peaks that work with much smaller actual consumer use, if the shared bandwidth available isn't high enough it fails.
The above is 800GB per connection per month � if spread evenly over 24 hours. More important is the peak quarter of the day.
So 200 GB each from 6-midnight, Ie: 7GB per evening each.
While ever the AVERAGE user on the segment uses less than that it'll perform brilliantly. And there are a LOT of people using under 100GB a month total.
The obvious problem will come with TV.
A note on shared bandwidth. Several years ago in Queenstown NZ my ISP used to have a small fibre cable back to a city that gave everyone under 100Kbps average. We were on 12Mbps and never had an issue � because most people had small quotas.
300Kbps is slow but it adds up more than people realise � use it for 6 hours a day and that's a 100GB quota. We don't use our data consistently � and unfortunately our HFC design is assuming things stay that way.
TV changes things.
Personally, I'm very excited about full-duplex DOCSIS 3.1 (and yes I'm aware that it won't be commercial reality for another 6-7 years at least).
Do you also get excited to hear about other technologies that can achieve vastly more than this, that are available from a consumer store today, to walk in and buy off the shelf?
I get depressed when I hear stories about DOCSIS 3.1 being in the pipeline, because it means people still think this is a long term solution.
So 200 GB each from 6-midnight, Ie: 7GB per evening each.
Thats all well and good, but you have clearly missed the Netflix revolution that occurred here over the past year. Peak times are only just starting to recover as ISPs have finally started to strike a balance that allows their user base to Netflix. Watching a movie on Netflix in HD will use about 3-3.5GB an hour, this is based on my own observations, I watched Interstellar when it first became available, with a movie weighing in at 2hours 49minutes, it used a whopping 9.6GB. Now admittedly I'm not going to watch Interstellar every night of the week for a month, but Netflix uses a fairly similar amount for everything, and I do watch TV from Netflix in the evening. I will give you a bit of a break on this because you did say:
The obvious problem will come with TV.
That said, we can't view it in isolation. IPTV is becoming more accessible to the everyday person, and this is putting a strain on the networks already without constraining usage.
And there are a LOT of people using under 100GB a month total.
The average usage per subscriber on NBN is 125GB/month as of April, I think you will see moving forward that this is less and less true.
Several years ago in Queenstown NZ my ISP used to have a small fibre cable back to a city that gave everyone under 100Kbps average.
Firstly several years ago is not 2016, going back 5 to 10 years the internet was not the same, it was starting to become ubiquitous but it wasn't as integrated into life as it is now. You cannot compare the 2 eras comfortably. That said, I think that is more indicative of the demographics of Queenstown than it is on the suitability of extreme congestion. If you look back over posts on this very forum several years ago for people stuck on Telstra RIMs where peak time congestion was common place, just look at how angry people were.
300Kbps is slow but it adds up more than people realise
You're right, it does. However as you point out, we don't use the internet over the day, we use it bursty, and people get really annoyed that Facebook is taking forever to load, or Netflix is buffering for 2 minutes, then only plays for 5 minutes before stopping and doing the same again. You point out that a lot of people use under 100GB a month total, this is because of the slow speeds not in spite of it. To see this you only need to compare average data usage on the NBN which is consistently climbing to the total average data usage. The NBN's larger average usage is not against the trend either.
This is the ABS study on downloads http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstat
They have been more-or-less exponentially increasing since 2007, I tested it out, on a couple of data points and the line of best fit would be almost perfectly fit exponential at a growth rate of 50%, in 5 or 10 years time at current growth 300kB/s in peak times is not going to be acceptable.
Thats all well and good, but you have clearly missed the Netflix revolution that occurred here over the past year.
Exactly right, my kids love Netflix and our average data use for the month is now around 400GB!
Exactly right, my kids love Netflix and our average data use for the month is now around 400GB!
I have 15 days left of my billing cycle, and 290GB of my 1TB left.
I have 15 days left of my billing cycle, and 290GB of my 1TB left.
Luckily I'm on a 1TB plan too, my record so far is about 790GB in a month :-O
Exactly right, my kids love Netflix and our average data use for the month is now around 400GB!
MTM has been designed and built for two years ago. Pity that we'll be stuck with it and paying for it for at least 20!
Thats all well and good, but you have clearly missed the Netflix revolution
No, actually I said that it was fine until you add TV. And then we have a problem.
Try not to misrepresent what I'm saying.
200 GB each from 6-midnight, Ie: 7GB per evening each.
And there are a LOT of people using under 100GB a month total.
The average usage per subscriber on NBN is 125GB/month as of April, I think you will see moving forward that this is less and less true.
So not hitting the maximum 200GB from 6-midnight yet, that I was calculating from HFC shared bandwidth figures.
When it does we'll need to split those nodes... my concern is whether they're planning on that. If they can react we'll be fine, if they can't that's bad.
Note that we'd be loosely assuming that the whole 125GB/month usage you cite is done in those 6 peak hours, and also presuming that the people switching to NBN are representative of all users. In reality the usage will be spread out somewhat, and there will be a slight tendency for higher end users to have switched earlier IMO, so there'll be a short term downwards blip in the average used when people are forced to the NBN, after which the trend continues into problem territory.
going back 5 to 10 years the internet was not the same, it was starting to become ubiquitous but it wasn't as integrated into life as it is now.
I didn't say it was, it's a little insulting for you to take my illustration of a point while missing the actual point. I was indicating only that the critical issue is the total data used, relative to the shared bandwidth available. The peak bursts do not matter if everyone's usage remains sporadic (so the total remains under the maximum volume that can be handled).
The question of whether the shared capacity is enough has nothing to do with the burst speed for individuals, and everything to do with how much data people want to move over an hour or two.
people get really annoyed that Facebook is taking forever to load, or Netflix is buffering for 2 minutes, then only plays for 5 minutes before stopping and doing the same again.
Yes, we're going to have problems.
Until we hit that average 200GB per user (evening usage), everyone will get close to top speeds, with occasional hits to speed as the averages won't always work out.
Then the moment we go over that average we'll have our data queuing with everyone else. It would be a catastrophic drop of speed if there's no QoS as there's more data to go through in 6 hours than the bandwidth can offer... so it'll take 8 hours to get it through (assuming we need all the data to go through). No-one will wait an hour for a webpage.
Of course what Netflix will do is immediately drop to lower quality, and it'll take a lot of pressure off immediately, and Netflix will bump up it's quality. This will allow most content to make it through without much delay, but it'll be noticeable. Netflix and similar will cache ahead just enough that it will look quite decent, while Facebook and other internet services will suffer.
Hitting the shared bandwidth limit is probably part of the reason our local exchanges are showing slower webpages already.
Back to the point... the moment that we collectively hit our shared bandwidth, we might all theoretically only see our specific share of the much slower speed. 100Mbps one second, 2.44Mbps the next. If the system could allocate us an average 2.44Mbps over a minute we might individually get great burst speeds still, but I've not seen a system attempt to do that.
And even if we kept our bursts, TV at 2.44Mbps won't cut it. More importantly the other technologies that become available with high speed won't have the speed.
Personally I'm hoping Netflix, Presto, and Fetch try to preload some content off peak in any way they can, to help the net cope. Smart things... like Netflix should stop sending 1080p playback when a STB is down converting it to 720p. Fetch is trialling 720p h265 video at 1.8Mbps and it looks okay.
But all up yes our NBN is not up to the task it's being made for.
MTM has been designed and built for two years ago. Pity that we'll be stuck with it and paying for it for at least 20!
Yep, stuck in the past and paying for the the Libs belligerence!
This gives me hope that the 'last mile' won't stay contended for long...
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2550151
This gives me hope that the 'last mile' won't stay contended for long...
That doesnt cover the last mile. That only covers the links between the last mile and the POI.
The next NBH HFC to go RFS end of this week is:
https://www.finder.com.au
This will be most interesting as this is Telstra HFC which is all below ground here in WA. It also means once this area goes live all of the Telstra HFC residential network nationwide will be handed over to NBN won't it (i.e. Telstra will enter into a caretaker mode for its HFC)?
Now confirmed:
http://www.compute
NBN this morning announced it had begun offering the first commercial services over the HFC assets it is obtaining from Telstra. NBN announced commercial availability of HFC services in Ocean Reef in Western Australia.
and more details in:
http://www.computerworld.
So I guess now NBN own all of the HFC assets around the country and Telstra will simply be sub-contracted to upgrade and maintain it?
Now over to the Ocean Reef thread ...
So I guess now NBN own all of the HFC assets around the country and Telstra will simply be sub-contracted to upgrade and maintain it?
No, my understanding is that the ownership will still transfer on a segment by segment basis � the poison pill is on a contractual basis, meaning that nbn� will eventually have to take ownership of the whole network (presumably within a specified time frame) instead of being able to pick and choose which segments they want to use and only buying those.
my understanding is that the ownership will still transfer on a segment by segment basis
The nodes will be connected to both the originator CMTS and an NBN CMTS back at the hub/exchange. Where the NBN CMTS will now broadcast a different set of channels into the node (different spectrum). So subscribers on the node can now communicate with either CMTS, depending on which channels they're allocated.
meaning that nbn� will eventually have to take ownership of the whole network (presumably within a specified time frame)
Since the start of any NBN rollouts that timeframe has been 18 months. After 18 months of an area going RFS, for FTTP, all Telstra services are ended and all residences are to move to an NBN service. It will likely be the same for HFC... after a node has been on an NBN CMTS for 18 months it is then removed from the originating (Telstra or Optus) CMTS.
So Telstra still aren't offering NBN HFC plans for Ocean Reef, despite the fact that this is formerly Telstra owned HFC!?! I can kind of understand them not immediately launching an offering in Refcliffe as it was Optus HFC but this doesn't make much sense.
No, my understanding is that the ownership will still transfer on a segment by segment basis � the poison pill is on a contractual basis, meaning that nbn� will eventually have to take ownership of the whole network (presumably within a specified time frame) instead of being able to pick and choose which segments they want to use and only buying those.
and also if they don't take control of enough segments, about 80% I believe, then they have to pay telstra compensation including ongoing maintenance and running costs for the sections not "owned"/used by nbn�
So Telstra still aren't offering NBN HFC plans for Ocean Reef, despite the fact that this is formerly Telstra owned HFC!?! I
Shows how much faith they have in their own network :) I would think now that they offer services for the Redcliffe NBN HFC they would be geared to go for all others since from the RSP end it shouldn't matter whether its Optus or Telstra HFC, it should all be ubiquitous if NBN have done their job.
From (this was posted Nov 2015 so maybe has been discussed before, or has it?)
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
HFC technology over the nbn� network is expected to offer the same wholesale speed tiers that are available on our Fibre-to-the-Premises (FTTP) network, ranging from up to 12 (download)/1 (upload) Mbps right through to 100 (download)/40 (upload) Mbps.
Wow FTTN/FTTB has really been left for dead. I just can't see how NBN can (indirectly) gloat over HFC at the expense of FTTN (not even mentioned at all) in this way?
Current HFC services offered by Retail Service Providers (RSP) offer only residential grade services, but nbn plans to also offer wholesale enterprise grade services to our RSPs using HFC technology over the nbn� network.
Huh? You meant my Telstra residential grade HFC service will become an NBN enterprise grade HFC service? Or will the RSP and CVC charges conspire to convert wholesale enterprise to retail hell?
The great thing about HFC is that around two million homes on the HFC network already have lead-ins to the premises established � so no further work should be required at the premises other than the connection of a new DOCSIS 3.1 modem at the end-user premises.
So how does this 'no further work' ensure we get a wholesale enterprise network, have NBN discovered the mythical perpetual motion machine (you get something out when you put nothing in)?
Even when new lead-ins are needed the fact that most of these will be connected aerially means a faster connection time for end-users than if a new lead-in conduit needed to be built for an FTTP connection.
I never realised there was so much more aerial HFC than below ground HFC around the country. Gosh!
HFC technology over the nbn� network is expected to offer the same wholesale speed tiers that are available on our Fibre-to-the-Premises (FTTP) network, ranging from up to 12 (download)/1 (upload) Mbps right through to 100 (download)/40 (upload) Mbps.
Which is already a lie. FTTP has higher tiers � and skymesh will quite happily sell you 100/100 using them. HFC does not support this. (For the first 18 months the whole segment has less than this for upload.)
Even when new lead-ins are needed the fact that most of these will be connected aerially means a faster connection time for end-users than if a new lead-in conduit needed to be built for an FTTP connection.
And this doesnt make sense either! If they can aerially connect HFC, they could just as easily aerially connect FTTP. I fail to see the cost savings, especially once the HFC maintenance and power bill is factored in.
Huh? You meant my Telstra residential grade HFC service will become an NBN enterprise grade HFC service? Or will the RSP and CVC charges conspire to convert wholesale enterprise to retail hell?
Telstra HFC wont even have battery backup network side � so not sure how 'Enterprise Grade' it really is.
And this doesnt make sense either! If they can aerially connect HFC, they could just as easily aerially connect FTTP.
Not quite true, it's really difficult (i.e. expensive) to fix a broken fibre cable. To keep costs down they need to run a continuous fibre cable from the distribution point all the way to the premise without a break in the cable.
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
FYI, to fix a fibre break you need large expensive equipment (normally in a van), a fibre technician, and considerable time. Also the overall quality of the optical signal can be degraded (if not done properly).
The only really way to roll out FTTP is to use underground conduits where the fibre integrity can be protected.
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
When they were putting up the Optus cable in my street in 1996, I spoke to one of the guys doing it. He said that their aerial cable had a lot of dark fibre in there (i.e. optic fibre with no signal).
Does this mean that Optus tried aerial fibre and have learned that it is not as feasible as they thought?
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
Its not a problem for much of the FTTP rollout in Adelaide. Prospect is all aerial and overhead.
Not quite true, it's really difficult (i.e. expensive) to fix a broken fibre cable. To keep costs down they need to run a continuous fibre cable from the distribution point all the way to the premise without a break in the cable.
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
FYI, to fix a fibre break you need large expensive equipment (normally in a van), a fibre technician, and considerable time. Also the overall quality of the optical signal can be degraded (if not done properly).
The only really way to roll out FTTP is to use underground conduits where the fibre integrity can be protected.
don't give me the difficult to repair fibre malarkey, most aerial fibre has an inbuild strain "wire" usually fibreglass and is actually stronger than aerial HFC or Copper.
All around Point Clare, Tascott, and Koolewong they have run aerial fibre with multiports on poles, the lead in goes from the multiport to the premises, exactly like running an aerial HFC leadin from a tap to the premises.
They did the same in the first areas in Tasmania.
In fact the initial FTTP builds were slated to be delivered by the same means the copper, so if you had overhead copper then you got overhead Fibre, if your copper was underground, then you got it underground.
One NSW Power Utility, Ausgrid, tried to screw NBN Co over on pole rental, so in some areas it was cheaper for NBN Co to run new underground ducts than pay the pole rental
In Woy Woy, they have run fibre aerially across a bay, the span length of the fibre is about 350 metres.
In Woy Woy, they have run fibre aerially across a bay, the span length of the fibre is about 350 metres.
There's fibre running thousands of kilometers under the sea between countries. Albeit different technology and substantially more expensive, I would imagine that an advanced global society that can achieve a global undersea network of such fibre would have also solved the issue of how to hang fibre across a few metres of residential property.
In this country it seems we are being conditioned to think of fibre as some futuristic pseudo-magic technology that is ultra fragile and expensive. As opposed to "just what we lay these days" like it is in other parts of the world.
When will Sydney metro area see the rollout of MTM (Melcom Turnbull Mess) the NBN HFC rollout and when is going to start.
Not quite true, it's really difficult (i.e. expensive) to fix a broken fibre cable.
Its more expensive to repair a broken coax but best not talk about that hey ;)
There are quite a number of scenarios that aren't feasible to just throw a couple of connectors either side of the break and fix a broken coax. There are noise and reflection issues in copper that are created by these state transitions, and also extra points of failure that are then introduced into the network. In contrast with a high quality splicing machine a broken fibre can be fused back together in a few minutes, and with the right closure the strain through the joint can be put back into each segment of the drop cables built in strain relief.
Its more expensive to repair a broken coax but best not talk about that hey ;)
Get it pulled, reconnected and ensure it is working again. That needs a small team and then the final testing.
This is probably not good news:
Dammit, was looking forward to ditching Optus cable for something "superior". Time to move house then.
This is probably not good news:
It says some areas with HFC will only have the option of FTTN on NBN, because the HFC will cost too much to upgrade. I hope this is just the shitty Optus network? I have solid 100Mbps Telstra Cable, FTTN would be a downgrade....
shitty Optus network? I have solid 100Mbps Telstra Cable, FTTN would be a downgrade....
I have solid 100Mbps Optus Cable. FTTN would be a downgrade.
This is probably not good news:
Bloody told everyone so, makes me bloody angry that the nation could have had a full FTTP network for the same or less money if it weren't for the corrupt and incompetent liberal's!
Just goes to show all the NBN co DOCSIS 3.1 press releases are total b.s.
Here's me thinking that eventually I'll be put onto DOCSIS 3.1 only to find out that there is a chance we'll be flipped to FTTN and I'll be pushed back onto a useless copper phone line
This makes no sense. There is no way a house would be put on DOCSIS 3.1 and then moved to FTTN.
I suspect areas that are have poor rates of connection (not necessarily active) to HFC are more likely to be moved to FTTN. Apartments that don't have existing HFC and have more than 15 to 20 units will be FTTB. Areas that Optus are more likely to be moved to FTTN.
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
i was talking to some guys at the local tesltra shop, and one moved from telstra cable to nbn and found it was more congested, the other had moved from adsl to nbn, and found it a lot faster...i'm getting 114/1.5 at present on telstra cable, so hopefully our areas stays hfc
my area in perth has telstra hfc and underground power (and underground phone lines) does that it more likely we will stay with HFC , rather than get moved to fttn ?
I suspect areas that are have poor rates of connection (not necessarily active) to HFC are more likely to be moved to FTTN.
I honestly don't know why HFC areas would be as expensive as FTTN. From what I can tell the the optical nodes are unchanged, the only activity one sees are in-fill and lead-in works. With FTTN NBN has to run their own fibre and then construct a whole new node and wire it across to the pillar, and of course necessary copper remeditation along the street. So the HFC cost is very much dependent on the existing HFC connectivity. Also even if NBN do FTTN they still have to maintain the Telstra HFC for Foxtel, why double maintenance (copper and HFC)?
Areas that Optus are more likely to be moved to FTTN.
I think it is this. But there is mention of 1.5 million. What is the premises in the Optus HFC footprint across the country?
On the other hand: Optus HFC is mainly aerial, Telstra HFC is mainly below ground, won't lead-in in-fill works for Telstra be more expensive than for Optus?
So the HFC cost is very much dependent on the existing HFC connectivity.
The original HFC network wasn't designed or built to actively service 100% of premises it covers.
There is more work than just in-fill.
It's possible that Optus had a lot less infrastructure in the ground than Telstra and the projected cost to upgrade it was more than what they stood to save by using the existing network over a new FTTN/P design.
But there is mention of 1.5 million. What is the premises in the Optus HFC footprint across the country?
Most of the 1.5 million will most likely come from areas that were intended to be in-filled with HFC, but now probably won't be.
The Optus-only HFC areas probably account for a few hundred thousand premises at best.
The original HFC network wasn't designed or built to actively service 100% of premises it covers.
Posters here have different views on this. Certainly the HFC plant does need to be upgraded to make full use of D3.1, especially if increasing the upstream bandwidth (the upstream amplifiers need to be retuned or replaced). This is a necessity if one is serious about SOHO users for which upstream is much more important and D3.0 HFC really doesn't cut it.
The original HFC network wasn't designed or built to actively service 100% of premises it covers.
Not in Australia, and definitely not for Telstra HFC.
When HFC broadband was added to HFC PayTV in the mid-1990s, there was very little, if any ADSL, Even after ADSL became more widely available there were many suburban ADSL blackspot areas which took many years to be RIMed (et al). So, there are significant suburban areas where there have been very high take rates for HFC broadbsnd (way over 30% of premises) and the Telstra HFC broadband network was designed for that.
Easily ~80% of the premises in my locality have HFC lead ins.
I see your point.
There is still a bit of a jump between 30% and the soon-to-be 100%.
I've seen more feeder going in the ground near me recently.
There is still a bit of a jump between 30% and the soon-to-be 100%.
In 6APP one of the contractors (Happy) has reported only 30% of presmises required lead-ins, but I suspect this is quite patchy across the suburbs involved. More importantly however is how many of these lead-ins are still active for either Foxtel cable or Telstra broadband, and only the latter would be relevant here. That may well be less than 50%.
I think it is now pretty clear. Now the election in over and the NBN debate is over, NBN will move to roll out as cheaply as possible. If a street with units has mainly units and a few houses it will get FTTN + FTTB for units. If a street has no HFC, it will get FTTN. Every area will be scrutinised and the cost benefit analysis will be made.
Some house will be caught by this. Perhaps some who on DOCSIS 3 were receiving 110/2.4 connections from Telstra will be only able to get 25/5 if they are on the periphery of a node. I'm not sure what I would do if that were to happen to me. I suspect I would try and stay on HFC as long as I could. I wonder what happens to the cables in these areas. Will NBN shut the IP spectrum down allowing only Foxtel to use them?
None of this is surprising. I only hope that other companies now step in a provide us with decent fibre networks and sideline the NBN. The NBN dream of ISP independent high speed internet for all is over after all.
Easily ~80% of the premises in my locality have HFC lead ins.
Yep � same for my street. The further you are away from an exchange the higher the number of HFC connections.
On the other hand: Optus HFC is mainly aerial, Telstra HFC is mainly below ground, won't lead-in in-fill works for Telstra be more expensive than for Optus?
They just pull a cable to the nearest pole and then go up from the pit and over the top. That's what Telstra did with mine.
Every area will be scrutinised and the cost benefit analysis will be made.
It has nothing to do with cost benefit analysis, they are focusing on the cheapest possible rollout and all other factors are being ignored. If they were doing a real CBA they would be rolling out FTTP because the opex and maintenance cost savings and increased revenue more than make up for the tiny capex difference!
Easily ~80% of the premises in my locality have HFC lead ins.
That doesn't mean much, the networks themselves were built with a maximum of 50% of premises passed being connected at the same time. Having a lead in and having and active service are quite different.
If they were doing a real CBA they would be rolling out
Not if their cba has a defined timeframe. That is the difference. There is probably a reason for that.
a real CBA they would be rolling out FTTP because the opex and maintenance cost savings and increased revenue more than make up for the tiny capex difference!
It's blatantly obvious that the long term benefits are not being considered. Again, there is a reason for that.
NBN will move to roll out as cheaply as possible. If a street with units has mainly units and a few houses it will get FTTN + FTTB for units.
I was zealously warning of this cheap myopic scenario.
Don't be so sure of FTTB as opposed to FTTN in anything much other than large MDUs where
1. FTTB is short-term CAPEX cheaper then FTTN for NBN to rollout
2. There is a "basement" that meets the basement criteria for FTTB (space, power, accessibility, safety)
3. The Body Corporate cooperates in a timely manner.
4. There is low risk of another FTTB wholesaler like TPG/wondercom getting in first.
5. The time and resources to deploy the additional F in FTTB are acceptable and available.
I'd expect HFC areas to lose their HFC for up to FTTN downgrades will be scheduled to lose their HFC after the next federal election.
Not if their cba has a defined timeframe. That is the difference. There is probably a reason for that
Timeframe, good one! All the numbers prove FTTN is no faster to rollout than FTTP!
Again, there is a reason for that.
Yep hyper partisan politics combined with arrogance, corruption, stupidity and ideology!
All retail providers can resell HFC on NBN.
Only if they can be bothered to go through the NBN Co onboarding process for becoming an HFC RSP...... and it's clear enough that not all retail providers are interested in doing that.
All retail providers can resell HFC on NBN.
Like all RSP's can offer the 5 NBN speed tiers, but too many Tier 1 RSP's don't even make the 50/10 or 50/20 speed tier available for any of or some key NBN Services.
So how come some (like Telstra) are refusing to sell HFC on NBN when the area has already been declared RFS and there competitors are not only selling it, but have NBN HGC customers active already?
Is this correct? Am I understanding it correctly that when HFC NBN comes to my area I will no longer be able to have a HFC connection with Telstra? Would be very disappointing if that is true as I have been a Telstra cable customer for the best part of 9 years.
Stupid question I know but as the 1+ million of HFC areas slated to get FTTN instead will include Telstra HFC does mean that we the taxpayer will be maintaining the Telstra HFC in these areas for Foxtel use while at the same time remediating the copper for FTTN?
Or are NBN Co released from their obligation to maintain the Telstra HFC which it does not use? I was under the impression NBN Co would all of Telstra HFC natiowide whether it be used for broadband overbuilt by FTTX. So there would be strong incentive for NBN Co to use the Telstra HFC wherever possible as it has to maintain in any event.
In fact the ALP used this as the reason for not touch HFC areas as these would inevitable be locked into an NBN HFC Build. The fact that now NBN Co so easily are able to switch these to FTTN makes me wonder whether the ALP would have decided to recommend FTTP in more HFC areas. Too bad this is all being revealed now after the elections.
Stupid question I know but as the 1+ million of HFC areas slated to get FTTN instead will include Telstra HFC does mean that we the taxpayer will be maintaining the Telstra HFC in these areas for Foxtel use while at the same time remediating the copper for FTTN?
my understanding of the Telstra agreement is that if nbn� take control of one segment of Telstra HFC network, then nbn� is contractually bound to take it all, over time, and to pay all maintenance on the Network, including sections they decide not to use. This includes areas that would become Foxtel only
Failing to do that will require nbn� to pay telstra compensation, there is however, I believe, a minimum level of take over that would exclude nbn� from being liable for compensation payments
Is this correct? Am I understanding it correctly that when HFC NBN comes to my area I will no longer be able to have a HFC connection with Telstra?
It's probably only a temporary issue that will be resolved sooner rather than later.
as the 1+ million of HFC areas slated to get FTTN instead will include Telstra HFC does mean that we the taxpayer will be maintaining the Telstra HFC in these areas for Foxtel use while at the same time remediating the copper for FTTN?
I very much doubt that many premises that already have a fit for purpose Telstra HFC lead-in will be switched to FTTN.
Most of those 1.5 million premise no longed earmarked for NBN HFC probably only have Optus lead ins or were the streets and premises with no, or no working or fit for purpose HFC lead-in, some of which were referred to as HFC footprint "fill-ins".
It's probably only a temporary issue that will be resolved sooner rather than later.
Hopefully that is the case. Lot's of reasons to have issues with Telstra but I have had no major complaints with their HFC service over the years.
that when HFC NBN comes to my area I will no longer be able to have a HFC connection with Telstra
Telstra have indicated that they will be offering service of NBN HFC, but have not done so yet. There is very little NBN HFC active at the moment.
In any case, existing Telstra HFC users in NBN areas which have gone already gone will have 18 months before Telstra must cease supply of its own HFC service.
Telstra must cease supply of its own HFC service.
That might be the worst part, they cease supply of its hfc giving a good speed over close to or over 100mbs, and the nbn might b putting so many on the legs it can only manage a minimum of 25/5
With tonights ABC Four corners focusing on Cyber War, and the lack of public information on the reason's why Telstra appears to be refusing to retail NBN RFS HFC (Telstra or Optus) at the moment, combined with the AFP citing National Security in relation to the NBN raids and the leaking of internal NBN HFC documents, will only fuel speculation that there might be something, somewhere in the NBN HFC Network, that is not yet deemed secure enough for Telstra to be prepared to take the risk of retailing it to anyone.
and the nbn might b putting so many on the legs it can only manage a minimum of 25/5
There is no realistic indication at all that will occur.
somewhere in the NBN HFC Network, that is not yet deemed secure enough for Telstra to be prepared to take the risk of retailing it to anyone.
And just because you are not paranoid, it does not mean they are not out to get you!
And just because you are not paranoid, it does not mean they are not out to get you!
Que?
My point being that mushrooms often grow in dark moist locations.
My point being that mushrooms often grow in dark moist locations.
Actually why are Telstra taking their sweet time to offer and NBN HFC product? I can only think the obvious reason that given they had 20 years to get customers on their Telstra HFC they are no hurry to move these over to NBN anytime soon. And Telstra probably don't expect much from non-Telstra cable broadband customers who never bothered in the first place to get on to Telstra HFC and would probably go for the el cheapo NBN RSPs anyway.
Actually why are Telstra taking their sweet time to offer and NBN HFC product?
In my discussions with Telstra yesterday, looks like they might be ready to release this service to Redcliffe by end of September/ early October. Don't know what the delay was as their competitors have been good to go from RFS 30th June. Belong will sell to me today which is odd.
I had wondered if Telstra had reservations selling their product over a network they didn't previously own.
And Telstra probably don't expect much from non-Telstra cable broadband customers who never bothered in the first place to get on to Telstra HFC and would probably go for the el cheapo NBN RSPs anyway.
If Telstra HFC had high upload speeds (15+) i'd have signed up as soon as it became available. I still will signup to the first ISP that reaches me that can offer those speeds reliably that has reasonable datacaps.
I wonder why Telstra dont get the jump on NBN rsp's and offer those upload speeds on thier network now.
When HFC is rolled out in an area will NBN test all lead-ins or does this only happen when one signs up with an ISP?
Question � Just found out that there's a whole bunch of money sitting in my body corporate's account, which will cover 70% of the installation cost for 3 MDUs (via commercial quote) � need a new tap/splitter installed.
I'm willing to foot the next few hundred dollars so that I can get HFC. No biggie. However, with the recent talk of less people getting HFC, is there a chance that NBN may decommission the HFC in my area, and just go FTTN? Have I understood that correctly? Is there a chance I'd be wasting my money, and eventually end up on copper anyway!?
Is there a chance I'd be wasting my money, and eventually end up on copper anyway!?
Given the entire process is political, and there are whiffs of FTTdp floating around, you may be better waiting and seeing whether those $ could be spent on an upgrade to FTTP (assuming they start using a model that allows for lower "FTTP upgrade" path costs)
edit: Is it Telstra or Optus? If it's Optus, I wouldn't be spending a cent on it.
edit: Is it Telstra or Optus? If it's Optus, I wouldn't be spending a cent on it.
Telstra, not a whiff of Optus anywhere. All Copper/HFC in my area. There is quite a large lack of ports, as per the advice from Telstra.
there are whiffs of FTTdp floating around
First I've heard of this, thought it was just all smoke and mirrors? I live in a simple 3 unit MDU, as is half the suburb now, due to the large block sizes.
is there a chance that NBN may decommission the HFC in my area, and just go FTTN? Have I understood that correctly? Is there a chance I'd be wasting my money, and eventually end up on copper anyway!?
Yes. Particularly if there are lots of MDU's and other premise that currently have no Telstra HFC lead-ins and that currently have copper lead-ins.
All Copper/HFC in my area. There is quite a large lack of ports, as per the advice from Telstra.
In that case you should go ahead with the HFC installation, as HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
In that case you should go ahead with the HFC installation, as HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
Computer says yes!
Yes. Particularly if there are lots of MDU's and other premise that currently have no Telstra HFC lead-ins and that currently have copper lead-ins.
Computer says no!
HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
Not if Telstra has historically refused to connect most of those MDU's to their HFC Network, or they have offered to connect MDU's to their HFC Network. at a price that has not seen many takers. and that did not go ahead unless all the MDU owners in each small block agreed, which is often the sticking point to getting HFC into MDU's after they have been built.
Then again, if a high % of those small blocks of MDU's had Telstra HFC built in when they were first built, Software Tools might be on the money.
In that case you should go ahead with the HFC installation, as HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
Are you prepared to underwrite up to 50% of Bogchops customer Telstra HFC installation cost if your advice turns out to be the wrong advice and his Telstra HFC is decommissioned/replaced with FTTN or something else within a few years?
Then again, if all those small MDU's self fund their Telstra HFC lead-ins pre-NBN, there's a good chance that the Telstra HFC will not be decommissioned in his area :)
Can someone decipher/expand/speculate on this: http://www.itnews.com.au/news
Would it be like fttdp only fed by coax instead of fibre? So the yet to be produced device (if it ever gets manufactured) that goes into the pit would be like a remote cable modem that converts the signals into VDSL so that the home without a HFC lead-in can then use their existing phone lead-in with a VDSL modem inside the home; is that how it is meant to work?
Sounds truly bizarre. I'm wondering why nbn are spending time/money on R&D for such things in order to prolong alternatives to fibre.
It's the "we'll do/lay anything but fibre, no matter what"
What they are trying to implement is a technology that is only for a small subset of consumers that are only in Australia and no where else in the world.
I've looked at fibre and was wondering what the poor thing did to the person who invented the Internet in Australia but can't find it.
the home without a HFC lead-in can then use their existing phone lead-in with a VDSL modem inside the home; is that how it is meant to work?
Pretty much.
Now I'm just waiting for NBNCo to announce their new technology for HFC to Telegraph conversion.
Don't know why they don't just glue some copper on some cockroaches. Nice mesh network and it's not fibre.
What they are trying to implement is a technology that is only for a small subset of consumers that are only in Australia and no where else in the world.
Well, I hope they can pay to build enough spares to deal with any reliability problems, both short term and for however long this "solution" is intended to last.
Putting in HFC lead-ins must be really expensive stuff to justify ideas like this.
Now I'm just waiting for NBNCo to announce their new technology for HFC to Telegraph conversion.
They will probably want to patent that too � wouldn't want anyone stealing these ideas away. :-)
They will probably want to patent that too � wouldn't want anyone stealing these ideas away. :-)
Because of:
It is restricted by the fact that no hardware currently exists to support its novel approach.
They will probably want to patent that too
Next we'll have VDSL delivered by sub space communicator.
Putting in HFC lead-ins must be really expensive stuff to justify ideas like this
RG6 quad shielded coax is about 3 times the cost of fibre per meter now!
I'm wondering why nbn are spending time/money on R&D for such things in order to prolong alternatives to fibre.
Because Rupert Murdoch is still making money from Foxtel, and high speed internet will stop that sooner.
So the yet to be produced device (if it ever gets manufactured) that goes into the pit would be like a remote cable modem that converts the signals into VDSL so that the home without a HFC lead-in can then use their existing phone lead-in with a VDSL modem inside the home; is that how it is meant to work?
It's actually nothing new... there were trials 10 years ago of devices, manufactured by Netgear, that were 'ruggedised' 802.11g WiFi Access Points, with built-in DOCSIS modems, that hung off the cable in the street. These were to sell internet services to unit blocks that were close by, over a WiFi connection. But, I guess, WiFi is flaky enough that it never took off.
Build a device (i.e a bridge) with DOCSIS in one end and ethernet in the other (and this is actually just the same as a DOCSIS modem) and bury it in the street. It still doesn't change the bus network nature of a DOCSIS network.
Build a device (i.e a bridge) with DOCSIS in one end and ethernet in the other (and this is actually just the same as a DOCSIS modem) and bury it in the street. It still doesn't change the bus network nature of a DOCSIS network.
but this takes DOCSIS and converts it to VDSL, not ethernet, which then gets converted to ethernet in the customers premises
but the underlying network is as you say HFC, just lots of conversions taking place
Putting in HFC lead-ins must be really expensive stuff to justify ideas like this.
yeah, i don't get it. i live in a standalone house in the eastern suburbs of sydney, admittedly the front yard is pretty small so not a long run.
When I had Optus cable installed last year it took one tech 2 hours to run the cable from the pole to my house, then run the cable through the roof and down the wall into the lounge room. How much could that have cost really?
Oh I forgot, another crew had to come late and night to run the cable across the road outside to the HFC cable
Oh I forgot, another crew had to come late and night to run the cable across the road outside to the HFC cable
So, a cherry picker, a crew of 3-4 technicians and someone to guide traffic around the workers while they run the cable. How much would that really cost?
in case death was mistakenly declared and a person was buried alive, a patent was put forward for a 'life-indicator' coffin, where the buried person could rotate a set of handles to move a dial above ground.
Our FTTN and HFC NBN is in that coffin, and the Liberal party with Malcolm at the helm are madly spinning the dial...
In areas where there is currently only Optus HFC, what makes you think they are going to abandon HFC and use FTTN instead?
There are currently only talks happening between NBNCo and Optus for work in the Optus HFC areas. Talks and discussions, not even negotiations.
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas, like mine, it's hardly surprising that many people are concerned that their existing Optus HFC might get abandoned and replaced with FTTN or worse if they are a loser in any FTTN lottery.
Also this from Morrow last week.
The 800,000 or so premises in the Optus HFC footprint may end up with a fibre-to-the-node service but NBN chief executive Bill Morrow has played down that prospect, saying the Optus network was still very much in play.
�The discussions with Optus are ongoing and the network can be upgraded to meet our needs and what the retail service providers want, just as we have done with the Telstra HFC network � he said. �We haven�t completed all of the discussions to definitively decide how much of the Optus network we are going to use.�
Which could mean none of it (apart from their trial site at Redcliffe). Too early to tell.
Considering the NBN is running new lead-ins for 'underground' Telstra HFC up the power poles to do an aerial install, obviously the NBN is going to continue to lease use of the power poles � irregardless of what happens with the Optus HFC infrastructure.
Obviously. But there were already concerns raised by the poles and wires owners about the weight load on their poles from additional/thicker HFC gear than the current stuff connected to it. So you would have thought that the poles and wire owners and NBNCo would be keen to get any no longer required Optus gear off their infrastructure for this reason alone.
Our FTTN and HFC NBN is in that coffin, and the Liberal party with Malcolm at the helm are madly spinning the dial...
Voluntary digital euthanasia or an off switch. Am being challenged deciding between these 2 options.
Who else is in the coffin with the FTTN/HFC. The liberal part of Malcolm, Abbott, NBNCo?
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas
Construction may have started in my Optus only HFC area scheduled for H2 2016:
/forum-replies.cfm?t=25
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2547463
In areas where there is currently only Optus HFC, what makes you think they are going to abandon HFC and use FTTN instead?
Because the non-overlap area is about 1.4 million premises and its the Optus network that is in the worst shape.
http://www.theregister.co.uk
As a result of problems with the Optus network, nbnTM CEO Bill Morrow told a Senate committee in March that network (bought at a cost of $800 million) won't support the 500,000 customers originally expected.
Maybe todays ACCC report explains why Telstra is not yet retailing HFC in the NBN HFC (ex Telstra) RFS areas.
Not according to this:
whrl.pl/ReHGoC
Their resident NBN Specialist advised me that my current Telstra Broadband Bundle cable internet should be converted to HFC NBN on 21 October 2016.
Seems like once Telstra NBN HFC is good to go later this month they may start moving Telstra cable customers over once an area is declared RFS. This is still legit (unless they do this before an area becomes RFS!_ but means Telstra cable customers will have an automatic transition NBN HFC and will definitely disadvantage other RSPs, especially if you are recontracted another 24 months for this (with the opt-out clause in the fine print).
Construction may have started in my Optus only HFC area scheduled for H2 2016:
Clearing of trees around the overhead HFC and electricity wires between the poles is something that the local Council does in my area at least once a year.
That occurring in your Shire (NSW) location is probably not a sign of an NBN Optus only HFC construction start.
Seems like once Telstra NBN HFC is good to go later this month they may start moving Telstra cable customers over once an area is declared RFS.
Telstra are already doing exactly this for ADSL customers now in FTTN areas.
Telstra are already doing exactly this for ADSL customers now in FTTN areas.
Except that for ADSL other ISPs can do similar so this provides some balance. With HFC there is only the one Telstra who can do this.
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas
Are you sure? The brown areas of this map indicate Optus only cable areas that look to be on track for service later this year.
(The purple bits are a new infill estate with FTTP)
Are you sure? The brown areas of this map indicate Optus only cable areas that look to be on track for service later this year.
Looks like our neighbours in Pascoe Vale & Coburg North have just gone to build commenced with HFC.
They were listed as H2 2016 in the 3 year rollout, and so were we in Glenroy. Let's hope this points to the 3 year plan for HFC being on track. It should give us an idea of build length too.
Thanks Yob. Fixed Line has commenced in that area. And the latest Telstra list has it being RFS Jan-Mar 2017.
What we don't definitely yet know, is if NBNCo have switched from the originally planned HFC to FTTN.
Or who is doing any HFC build in this area for NBNCo?
Fixed Line has commenced in that area. And the latest Telstra list has it being RFS Jan-Mar 2017.
What we don't definitely yet know, is if NBNCo have switched from the originally planned HFC to FTTN
I can't say for sure, but I'd be very surprised if it's not HFC. The spent a fair amount of effort building new aerial lead-ins from the optus cable earlier this year: /archive/2467389#r49210822
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
The same as whats available now. (100/40 etc).
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
nbn has been sending mixed messages about this.
When critics ask why HFC when FTTP can do 1000/400 now, nbn say that no one needs those kind of speeds.
When nbn hear the potential of DOCSIS 3.1, they shout from the rooftops that they will be able to offer 1000/100 to customers on it (so the *potential* of it suits their PR campaign).
When asked how much HFC upgrades are expected to cost, they tell us that DOCSIS 3.1 is a cheaper way that will allow them to avoid/delay doing node splits that otherwise would have been needed to help maintain the advertised speeds that they will be selling. So it has become a cost cutting exercise now more so than a capacity upgrade.
TL;DR version, it will depend how much money/effort nbn put into it. DOCSIS 3.1 alone is not a magic bullet.
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
If the NBN spends the cash to fix DOCSIS 3.0 it's really good but as the minimum is only 25/5 I sure that the NBN won't spend the money to do it right.
As for DOCSIS 3.1 it need a massive upgrade to get it working at 1000/400 which the NBN won't do.
I am on iinet cable DOCSIS 3.0 who has has spent the money to it right
my speed test it's never gone below 200/40
http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5466630411
Mr.Wizzard
So you would have thought that the poles and wire owners and NBNCo would be keen to get any no longer required Optus gear off their infrastructure for this reason alone.
I would expect they'd only remove the gear at the same time they replace it with something else. To send a crew out with the sole purpose of removing gear would be a waste of money.
I would expect they'd only remove the gear at the same time they replace it with something else. To send a crew out with the sole purpose of removing gear would be a waste of money.
Good point.
With the original 93% Fibre NBN, all the Aerial Optus HFC was to be decommissioned.
There must be someone reading this thread that is in the know about what the plan was for removing the Aerial Optus HFC gear from the power poles and the Optus HFC lead ins from the premises.
There must be someone reading this thread that is in the know about what the plan was for removing the Aerial Optus HFC gear from the power poles and the Optus HFC lead ins from the premises.
You're assuming they actually had a plan...
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