Are there really 75 providers (including 3 with names of Brisbane, Qld & Nth Qld!), each of them will probably have at least 3 available plans to choose from?
Or are there only 2 (Belong & TPG), because they're the only 2 that let you see plans?
Lol, my entire postcode is still listed as "No Service Info". The neighbouring postcode has had FTTP fully active since 2014. While the HFC that has been hanging from the poles for 20+ years is still an unknown...
500 subscribers per segment: 1220mbs down
That makes 2.44 down and 0.384 up per subscriber. On NBN HFC.
Seriously?
Yes while everyone prefers shared high peaks that work with much smaller actual consumer use, if the shared bandwidth available isn't high enough it fails.
The above is 800GB per connection per month � if spread evenly over 24 hours. More important is the peak quarter of the day.
So 200 GB each from 6-midnight, Ie: 7GB per evening each.
While ever the AVERAGE user on the segment uses less than that it'll perform brilliantly. And there are a LOT of people using under 100GB a month total.
The obvious problem will come with TV.
A note on shared bandwidth. Several years ago in Queenstown NZ my ISP used to have a small fibre cable back to a city that gave everyone under 100Kbps average. We were on 12Mbps and never had an issue � because most people had small quotas.
300Kbps is slow but it adds up more than people realise � use it for 6 hours a day and that's a 100GB quota. We don't use our data consistently � and unfortunately our HFC design is assuming things stay that way.
TV changes things.
Personally, I'm very excited about full-duplex DOCSIS 3.1 (and yes I'm aware that it won't be commercial reality for another 6-7 years at least).
Do you also get excited to hear about other technologies that can achieve vastly more than this, that are available from a consumer store today, to walk in and buy off the shelf?
I get depressed when I hear stories about DOCSIS 3.1 being in the pipeline, because it means people still think this is a long term solution.
So 200 GB each from 6-midnight, Ie: 7GB per evening each.
Thats all well and good, but you have clearly missed the Netflix revolution that occurred here over the past year. Peak times are only just starting to recover as ISPs have finally started to strike a balance that allows their user base to Netflix. Watching a movie on Netflix in HD will use about 3-3.5GB an hour, this is based on my own observations, I watched Interstellar when it first became available, with a movie weighing in at 2hours 49minutes, it used a whopping 9.6GB. Now admittedly I'm not going to watch Interstellar every night of the week for a month, but Netflix uses a fairly similar amount for everything, and I do watch TV from Netflix in the evening. I will give you a bit of a break on this because you did say:
The obvious problem will come with TV.
That said, we can't view it in isolation. IPTV is becoming more accessible to the everyday person, and this is putting a strain on the networks already without constraining usage.
And there are a LOT of people using under 100GB a month total.
The average usage per subscriber on NBN is 125GB/month as of April, I think you will see moving forward that this is less and less true.
Several years ago in Queenstown NZ my ISP used to have a small fibre cable back to a city that gave everyone under 100Kbps average.
Firstly several years ago is not 2016, going back 5 to 10 years the internet was not the same, it was starting to become ubiquitous but it wasn't as integrated into life as it is now. You cannot compare the 2 eras comfortably. That said, I think that is more indicative of the demographics of Queenstown than it is on the suitability of extreme congestion. If you look back over posts on this very forum several years ago for people stuck on Telstra RIMs where peak time congestion was common place, just look at how angry people were.
300Kbps is slow but it adds up more than people realise
You're right, it does. However as you point out, we don't use the internet over the day, we use it bursty, and people get really annoyed that Facebook is taking forever to load, or Netflix is buffering for 2 minutes, then only plays for 5 minutes before stopping and doing the same again. You point out that a lot of people use under 100GB a month total, this is because of the slow speeds not in spite of it. To see this you only need to compare average data usage on the NBN which is consistently climbing to the total average data usage. The NBN's larger average usage is not against the trend either.
This is the ABS study on downloads http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstat
They have been more-or-less exponentially increasing since 2007, I tested it out, on a couple of data points and the line of best fit would be almost perfectly fit exponential at a growth rate of 50%, in 5 or 10 years time at current growth 300kB/s in peak times is not going to be acceptable.
Thats all well and good, but you have clearly missed the Netflix revolution that occurred here over the past year.
Exactly right, my kids love Netflix and our average data use for the month is now around 400GB!
Exactly right, my kids love Netflix and our average data use for the month is now around 400GB!
I have 15 days left of my billing cycle, and 290GB of my 1TB left.
I have 15 days left of my billing cycle, and 290GB of my 1TB left.
Luckily I'm on a 1TB plan too, my record so far is about 790GB in a month :-O
Exactly right, my kids love Netflix and our average data use for the month is now around 400GB!
MTM has been designed and built for two years ago. Pity that we'll be stuck with it and paying for it for at least 20!
Thats all well and good, but you have clearly missed the Netflix revolution
No, actually I said that it was fine until you add TV. And then we have a problem.
Try not to misrepresent what I'm saying.
200 GB each from 6-midnight, Ie: 7GB per evening each.
And there are a LOT of people using under 100GB a month total.
The average usage per subscriber on NBN is 125GB/month as of April, I think you will see moving forward that this is less and less true.
So not hitting the maximum 200GB from 6-midnight yet, that I was calculating from HFC shared bandwidth figures.
When it does we'll need to split those nodes... my concern is whether they're planning on that. If they can react we'll be fine, if they can't that's bad.
Note that we'd be loosely assuming that the whole 125GB/month usage you cite is done in those 6 peak hours, and also presuming that the people switching to NBN are representative of all users. In reality the usage will be spread out somewhat, and there will be a slight tendency for higher end users to have switched earlier IMO, so there'll be a short term downwards blip in the average used when people are forced to the NBN, after which the trend continues into problem territory.
going back 5 to 10 years the internet was not the same, it was starting to become ubiquitous but it wasn't as integrated into life as it is now.
I didn't say it was, it's a little insulting for you to take my illustration of a point while missing the actual point. I was indicating only that the critical issue is the total data used, relative to the shared bandwidth available. The peak bursts do not matter if everyone's usage remains sporadic (so the total remains under the maximum volume that can be handled).
The question of whether the shared capacity is enough has nothing to do with the burst speed for individuals, and everything to do with how much data people want to move over an hour or two.
people get really annoyed that Facebook is taking forever to load, or Netflix is buffering for 2 minutes, then only plays for 5 minutes before stopping and doing the same again.
Yes, we're going to have problems.
Until we hit that average 200GB per user (evening usage), everyone will get close to top speeds, with occasional hits to speed as the averages won't always work out.
Then the moment we go over that average we'll have our data queuing with everyone else. It would be a catastrophic drop of speed if there's no QoS as there's more data to go through in 6 hours than the bandwidth can offer... so it'll take 8 hours to get it through (assuming we need all the data to go through). No-one will wait an hour for a webpage.
Of course what Netflix will do is immediately drop to lower quality, and it'll take a lot of pressure off immediately, and Netflix will bump up it's quality. This will allow most content to make it through without much delay, but it'll be noticeable. Netflix and similar will cache ahead just enough that it will look quite decent, while Facebook and other internet services will suffer.
Hitting the shared bandwidth limit is probably part of the reason our local exchanges are showing slower webpages already.
Back to the point... the moment that we collectively hit our shared bandwidth, we might all theoretically only see our specific share of the much slower speed. 100Mbps one second, 2.44Mbps the next. If the system could allocate us an average 2.44Mbps over a minute we might individually get great burst speeds still, but I've not seen a system attempt to do that.
And even if we kept our bursts, TV at 2.44Mbps won't cut it. More importantly the other technologies that become available with high speed won't have the speed.
Personally I'm hoping Netflix, Presto, and Fetch try to preload some content off peak in any way they can, to help the net cope. Smart things... like Netflix should stop sending 1080p playback when a STB is down converting it to 720p. Fetch is trialling 720p h265 video at 1.8Mbps and it looks okay.
But all up yes our NBN is not up to the task it's being made for.
MTM has been designed and built for two years ago. Pity that we'll be stuck with it and paying for it for at least 20!
Yep, stuck in the past and paying for the the Libs belligerence!
This gives me hope that the 'last mile' won't stay contended for long...
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2550151
This gives me hope that the 'last mile' won't stay contended for long...
That doesnt cover the last mile. That only covers the links between the last mile and the POI.
The next NBH HFC to go RFS end of this week is:
https://www.finder.com.au
This will be most interesting as this is Telstra HFC which is all below ground here in WA. It also means once this area goes live all of the Telstra HFC residential network nationwide will be handed over to NBN won't it (i.e. Telstra will enter into a caretaker mode for its HFC)?
Now confirmed:
http://www.compute
NBN this morning announced it had begun offering the first commercial services over the HFC assets it is obtaining from Telstra. NBN announced commercial availability of HFC services in Ocean Reef in Western Australia.
and more details in:
http://www.computerworld.
So I guess now NBN own all of the HFC assets around the country and Telstra will simply be sub-contracted to upgrade and maintain it?
Now over to the Ocean Reef thread ...
So I guess now NBN own all of the HFC assets around the country and Telstra will simply be sub-contracted to upgrade and maintain it?
No, my understanding is that the ownership will still transfer on a segment by segment basis � the poison pill is on a contractual basis, meaning that nbn� will eventually have to take ownership of the whole network (presumably within a specified time frame) instead of being able to pick and choose which segments they want to use and only buying those.
my understanding is that the ownership will still transfer on a segment by segment basis
The nodes will be connected to both the originator CMTS and an NBN CMTS back at the hub/exchange. Where the NBN CMTS will now broadcast a different set of channels into the node (different spectrum). So subscribers on the node can now communicate with either CMTS, depending on which channels they're allocated.
meaning that nbn� will eventually have to take ownership of the whole network (presumably within a specified time frame)
Since the start of any NBN rollouts that timeframe has been 18 months. After 18 months of an area going RFS, for FTTP, all Telstra services are ended and all residences are to move to an NBN service. It will likely be the same for HFC... after a node has been on an NBN CMTS for 18 months it is then removed from the originating (Telstra or Optus) CMTS.
So Telstra still aren't offering NBN HFC plans for Ocean Reef, despite the fact that this is formerly Telstra owned HFC!?! I can kind of understand them not immediately launching an offering in Refcliffe as it was Optus HFC but this doesn't make much sense.
No, my understanding is that the ownership will still transfer on a segment by segment basis � the poison pill is on a contractual basis, meaning that nbn� will eventually have to take ownership of the whole network (presumably within a specified time frame) instead of being able to pick and choose which segments they want to use and only buying those.
and also if they don't take control of enough segments, about 80% I believe, then they have to pay telstra compensation including ongoing maintenance and running costs for the sections not "owned"/used by nbn�
So Telstra still aren't offering NBN HFC plans for Ocean Reef, despite the fact that this is formerly Telstra owned HFC!?! I
Shows how much faith they have in their own network :) I would think now that they offer services for the Redcliffe NBN HFC they would be geared to go for all others since from the RSP end it shouldn't matter whether its Optus or Telstra HFC, it should all be ubiquitous if NBN have done their job.
From (this was posted Nov 2015 so maybe has been discussed before, or has it?)
http://www.nbnco.com.au/
HFC technology over the nbn� network is expected to offer the same wholesale speed tiers that are available on our Fibre-to-the-Premises (FTTP) network, ranging from up to 12 (download)/1 (upload) Mbps right through to 100 (download)/40 (upload) Mbps.
Wow FTTN/FTTB has really been left for dead. I just can't see how NBN can (indirectly) gloat over HFC at the expense of FTTN (not even mentioned at all) in this way?
Current HFC services offered by Retail Service Providers (RSP) offer only residential grade services, but nbn plans to also offer wholesale enterprise grade services to our RSPs using HFC technology over the nbn� network.
Huh? You meant my Telstra residential grade HFC service will become an NBN enterprise grade HFC service? Or will the RSP and CVC charges conspire to convert wholesale enterprise to retail hell?
The great thing about HFC is that around two million homes on the HFC network already have lead-ins to the premises established � so no further work should be required at the premises other than the connection of a new DOCSIS 3.1 modem at the end-user premises.
So how does this 'no further work' ensure we get a wholesale enterprise network, have NBN discovered the mythical perpetual motion machine (you get something out when you put nothing in)?
Even when new lead-ins are needed the fact that most of these will be connected aerially means a faster connection time for end-users than if a new lead-in conduit needed to be built for an FTTP connection.
I never realised there was so much more aerial HFC than below ground HFC around the country. Gosh!
HFC technology over the nbn� network is expected to offer the same wholesale speed tiers that are available on our Fibre-to-the-Premises (FTTP) network, ranging from up to 12 (download)/1 (upload) Mbps right through to 100 (download)/40 (upload) Mbps.
Which is already a lie. FTTP has higher tiers � and skymesh will quite happily sell you 100/100 using them. HFC does not support this. (For the first 18 months the whole segment has less than this for upload.)
Even when new lead-ins are needed the fact that most of these will be connected aerially means a faster connection time for end-users than if a new lead-in conduit needed to be built for an FTTP connection.
And this doesnt make sense either! If they can aerially connect HFC, they could just as easily aerially connect FTTP. I fail to see the cost savings, especially once the HFC maintenance and power bill is factored in.
Huh? You meant my Telstra residential grade HFC service will become an NBN enterprise grade HFC service? Or will the RSP and CVC charges conspire to convert wholesale enterprise to retail hell?
Telstra HFC wont even have battery backup network side � so not sure how 'Enterprise Grade' it really is.
And this doesnt make sense either! If they can aerially connect HFC, they could just as easily aerially connect FTTP.
Not quite true, it's really difficult (i.e. expensive) to fix a broken fibre cable. To keep costs down they need to run a continuous fibre cable from the distribution point all the way to the premise without a break in the cable.
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
FYI, to fix a fibre break you need large expensive equipment (normally in a van), a fibre technician, and considerable time. Also the overall quality of the optical signal can be degraded (if not done properly).
The only really way to roll out FTTP is to use underground conduits where the fibre integrity can be protected.
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
When they were putting up the Optus cable in my street in 1996, I spoke to one of the guys doing it. He said that their aerial cable had a lot of dark fibre in there (i.e. optic fibre with no signal).
Does this mean that Optus tried aerial fibre and have learned that it is not as feasible as they thought?
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
Its not a problem for much of the FTTP rollout in Adelaide. Prospect is all aerial and overhead.
Not quite true, it's really difficult (i.e. expensive) to fix a broken fibre cable. To keep costs down they need to run a continuous fibre cable from the distribution point all the way to the premise without a break in the cable.
If you have aerial FTTP connections, these are susceptible to expensive breakages (trees, weather, building works, etc)
FYI, to fix a fibre break you need large expensive equipment (normally in a van), a fibre technician, and considerable time. Also the overall quality of the optical signal can be degraded (if not done properly).
The only really way to roll out FTTP is to use underground conduits where the fibre integrity can be protected.
don't give me the difficult to repair fibre malarkey, most aerial fibre has an inbuild strain "wire" usually fibreglass and is actually stronger than aerial HFC or Copper.
All around Point Clare, Tascott, and Koolewong they have run aerial fibre with multiports on poles, the lead in goes from the multiport to the premises, exactly like running an aerial HFC leadin from a tap to the premises.
They did the same in the first areas in Tasmania.
In fact the initial FTTP builds were slated to be delivered by the same means the copper, so if you had overhead copper then you got overhead Fibre, if your copper was underground, then you got it underground.
One NSW Power Utility, Ausgrid, tried to screw NBN Co over on pole rental, so in some areas it was cheaper for NBN Co to run new underground ducts than pay the pole rental
In Woy Woy, they have run fibre aerially across a bay, the span length of the fibre is about 350 metres.
In Woy Woy, they have run fibre aerially across a bay, the span length of the fibre is about 350 metres.
There's fibre running thousands of kilometers under the sea between countries. Albeit different technology and substantially more expensive, I would imagine that an advanced global society that can achieve a global undersea network of such fibre would have also solved the issue of how to hang fibre across a few metres of residential property.
In this country it seems we are being conditioned to think of fibre as some futuristic pseudo-magic technology that is ultra fragile and expensive. As opposed to "just what we lay these days" like it is in other parts of the world.
When will Sydney metro area see the rollout of MTM (Melcom Turnbull Mess) the NBN HFC rollout and when is going to start.
Not quite true, it's really difficult (i.e. expensive) to fix a broken fibre cable.
Its more expensive to repair a broken coax but best not talk about that hey ;)
There are quite a number of scenarios that aren't feasible to just throw a couple of connectors either side of the break and fix a broken coax. There are noise and reflection issues in copper that are created by these state transitions, and also extra points of failure that are then introduced into the network. In contrast with a high quality splicing machine a broken fibre can be fused back together in a few minutes, and with the right closure the strain through the joint can be put back into each segment of the drop cables built in strain relief.
Its more expensive to repair a broken coax but best not talk about that hey ;)
Get it pulled, reconnected and ensure it is working again. That needs a small team and then the final testing.
This is probably not good news:
Dammit, was looking forward to ditching Optus cable for something "superior". Time to move house then.
This is probably not good news:
It says some areas with HFC will only have the option of FTTN on NBN, because the HFC will cost too much to upgrade. I hope this is just the shitty Optus network? I have solid 100Mbps Telstra Cable, FTTN would be a downgrade....
shitty Optus network? I have solid 100Mbps Telstra Cable, FTTN would be a downgrade....
I have solid 100Mbps Optus Cable. FTTN would be a downgrade.
This is probably not good news:
Bloody told everyone so, makes me bloody angry that the nation could have had a full FTTP network for the same or less money if it weren't for the corrupt and incompetent liberal's!
Just goes to show all the NBN co DOCSIS 3.1 press releases are total b.s.
Here's me thinking that eventually I'll be put onto DOCSIS 3.1 only to find out that there is a chance we'll be flipped to FTTN and I'll be pushed back onto a useless copper phone line
This makes no sense. There is no way a house would be put on DOCSIS 3.1 and then moved to FTTN.
I suspect areas that are have poor rates of connection (not necessarily active) to HFC are more likely to be moved to FTTN. Apartments that don't have existing HFC and have more than 15 to 20 units will be FTTB. Areas that Optus are more likely to be moved to FTTN.
http://www.itnews.com.au/new
i was talking to some guys at the local tesltra shop, and one moved from telstra cable to nbn and found it was more congested, the other had moved from adsl to nbn, and found it a lot faster...i'm getting 114/1.5 at present on telstra cable, so hopefully our areas stays hfc
my area in perth has telstra hfc and underground power (and underground phone lines) does that it more likely we will stay with HFC , rather than get moved to fttn ?
I suspect areas that are have poor rates of connection (not necessarily active) to HFC are more likely to be moved to FTTN.
I honestly don't know why HFC areas would be as expensive as FTTN. From what I can tell the the optical nodes are unchanged, the only activity one sees are in-fill and lead-in works. With FTTN NBN has to run their own fibre and then construct a whole new node and wire it across to the pillar, and of course necessary copper remeditation along the street. So the HFC cost is very much dependent on the existing HFC connectivity. Also even if NBN do FTTN they still have to maintain the Telstra HFC for Foxtel, why double maintenance (copper and HFC)?
Areas that Optus are more likely to be moved to FTTN.
I think it is this. But there is mention of 1.5 million. What is the premises in the Optus HFC footprint across the country?
On the other hand: Optus HFC is mainly aerial, Telstra HFC is mainly below ground, won't lead-in in-fill works for Telstra be more expensive than for Optus?
So the HFC cost is very much dependent on the existing HFC connectivity.
The original HFC network wasn't designed or built to actively service 100% of premises it covers.
There is more work than just in-fill.
It's possible that Optus had a lot less infrastructure in the ground than Telstra and the projected cost to upgrade it was more than what they stood to save by using the existing network over a new FTTN/P design.
But there is mention of 1.5 million. What is the premises in the Optus HFC footprint across the country?
Most of the 1.5 million will most likely come from areas that were intended to be in-filled with HFC, but now probably won't be.
The Optus-only HFC areas probably account for a few hundred thousand premises at best.
The original HFC network wasn't designed or built to actively service 100% of premises it covers.
Posters here have different views on this. Certainly the HFC plant does need to be upgraded to make full use of D3.1, especially if increasing the upstream bandwidth (the upstream amplifiers need to be retuned or replaced). This is a necessity if one is serious about SOHO users for which upstream is much more important and D3.0 HFC really doesn't cut it.
The original HFC network wasn't designed or built to actively service 100% of premises it covers.
Not in Australia, and definitely not for Telstra HFC.
When HFC broadband was added to HFC PayTV in the mid-1990s, there was very little, if any ADSL, Even after ADSL became more widely available there were many suburban ADSL blackspot areas which took many years to be RIMed (et al). So, there are significant suburban areas where there have been very high take rates for HFC broadbsnd (way over 30% of premises) and the Telstra HFC broadband network was designed for that.
Easily ~80% of the premises in my locality have HFC lead ins.
I see your point.
There is still a bit of a jump between 30% and the soon-to-be 100%.
I've seen more feeder going in the ground near me recently.
There is still a bit of a jump between 30% and the soon-to-be 100%.
In 6APP one of the contractors (Happy) has reported only 30% of presmises required lead-ins, but I suspect this is quite patchy across the suburbs involved. More importantly however is how many of these lead-ins are still active for either Foxtel cable or Telstra broadband, and only the latter would be relevant here. That may well be less than 50%.
I think it is now pretty clear. Now the election in over and the NBN debate is over, NBN will move to roll out as cheaply as possible. If a street with units has mainly units and a few houses it will get FTTN + FTTB for units. If a street has no HFC, it will get FTTN. Every area will be scrutinised and the cost benefit analysis will be made.
Some house will be caught by this. Perhaps some who on DOCSIS 3 were receiving 110/2.4 connections from Telstra will be only able to get 25/5 if they are on the periphery of a node. I'm not sure what I would do if that were to happen to me. I suspect I would try and stay on HFC as long as I could. I wonder what happens to the cables in these areas. Will NBN shut the IP spectrum down allowing only Foxtel to use them?
None of this is surprising. I only hope that other companies now step in a provide us with decent fibre networks and sideline the NBN. The NBN dream of ISP independent high speed internet for all is over after all.
Easily ~80% of the premises in my locality have HFC lead ins.
Yep � same for my street. The further you are away from an exchange the higher the number of HFC connections.
On the other hand: Optus HFC is mainly aerial, Telstra HFC is mainly below ground, won't lead-in in-fill works for Telstra be more expensive than for Optus?
They just pull a cable to the nearest pole and then go up from the pit and over the top. That's what Telstra did with mine.
Every area will be scrutinised and the cost benefit analysis will be made.
It has nothing to do with cost benefit analysis, they are focusing on the cheapest possible rollout and all other factors are being ignored. If they were doing a real CBA they would be rolling out FTTP because the opex and maintenance cost savings and increased revenue more than make up for the tiny capex difference!
Easily ~80% of the premises in my locality have HFC lead ins.
That doesn't mean much, the networks themselves were built with a maximum of 50% of premises passed being connected at the same time. Having a lead in and having and active service are quite different.
If they were doing a real CBA they would be rolling out
Not if their cba has a defined timeframe. That is the difference. There is probably a reason for that.
a real CBA they would be rolling out FTTP because the opex and maintenance cost savings and increased revenue more than make up for the tiny capex difference!
It's blatantly obvious that the long term benefits are not being considered. Again, there is a reason for that.
NBN will move to roll out as cheaply as possible. If a street with units has mainly units and a few houses it will get FTTN + FTTB for units.
I was zealously warning of this cheap myopic scenario.
Don't be so sure of FTTB as opposed to FTTN in anything much other than large MDUs where
1. FTTB is short-term CAPEX cheaper then FTTN for NBN to rollout
2. There is a "basement" that meets the basement criteria for FTTB (space, power, accessibility, safety)
3. The Body Corporate cooperates in a timely manner.
4. There is low risk of another FTTB wholesaler like TPG/wondercom getting in first.
5. The time and resources to deploy the additional F in FTTB are acceptable and available.
I'd expect HFC areas to lose their HFC for up to FTTN downgrades will be scheduled to lose their HFC after the next federal election.
Not if their cba has a defined timeframe. That is the difference. There is probably a reason for that
Timeframe, good one! All the numbers prove FTTN is no faster to rollout than FTTP!
Again, there is a reason for that.
Yep hyper partisan politics combined with arrogance, corruption, stupidity and ideology!
All retail providers can resell HFC on NBN.
Only if they can be bothered to go through the NBN Co onboarding process for becoming an HFC RSP...... and it's clear enough that not all retail providers are interested in doing that.
All retail providers can resell HFC on NBN.
Like all RSP's can offer the 5 NBN speed tiers, but too many Tier 1 RSP's don't even make the 50/10 or 50/20 speed tier available for any of or some key NBN Services.
So how come some (like Telstra) are refusing to sell HFC on NBN when the area has already been declared RFS and there competitors are not only selling it, but have NBN HGC customers active already?
Is this correct? Am I understanding it correctly that when HFC NBN comes to my area I will no longer be able to have a HFC connection with Telstra? Would be very disappointing if that is true as I have been a Telstra cable customer for the best part of 9 years.
Stupid question I know but as the 1+ million of HFC areas slated to get FTTN instead will include Telstra HFC does mean that we the taxpayer will be maintaining the Telstra HFC in these areas for Foxtel use while at the same time remediating the copper for FTTN?
Or are NBN Co released from their obligation to maintain the Telstra HFC which it does not use? I was under the impression NBN Co would all of Telstra HFC natiowide whether it be used for broadband overbuilt by FTTX. So there would be strong incentive for NBN Co to use the Telstra HFC wherever possible as it has to maintain in any event.
In fact the ALP used this as the reason for not touch HFC areas as these would inevitable be locked into an NBN HFC Build. The fact that now NBN Co so easily are able to switch these to FTTN makes me wonder whether the ALP would have decided to recommend FTTP in more HFC areas. Too bad this is all being revealed now after the elections.
Stupid question I know but as the 1+ million of HFC areas slated to get FTTN instead will include Telstra HFC does mean that we the taxpayer will be maintaining the Telstra HFC in these areas for Foxtel use while at the same time remediating the copper for FTTN?
my understanding of the Telstra agreement is that if nbn� take control of one segment of Telstra HFC network, then nbn� is contractually bound to take it all, over time, and to pay all maintenance on the Network, including sections they decide not to use. This includes areas that would become Foxtel only
Failing to do that will require nbn� to pay telstra compensation, there is however, I believe, a minimum level of take over that would exclude nbn� from being liable for compensation payments
Is this correct? Am I understanding it correctly that when HFC NBN comes to my area I will no longer be able to have a HFC connection with Telstra?
It's probably only a temporary issue that will be resolved sooner rather than later.
as the 1+ million of HFC areas slated to get FTTN instead will include Telstra HFC does mean that we the taxpayer will be maintaining the Telstra HFC in these areas for Foxtel use while at the same time remediating the copper for FTTN?
I very much doubt that many premises that already have a fit for purpose Telstra HFC lead-in will be switched to FTTN.
Most of those 1.5 million premise no longed earmarked for NBN HFC probably only have Optus lead ins or were the streets and premises with no, or no working or fit for purpose HFC lead-in, some of which were referred to as HFC footprint "fill-ins".
It's probably only a temporary issue that will be resolved sooner rather than later.
Hopefully that is the case. Lot's of reasons to have issues with Telstra but I have had no major complaints with their HFC service over the years.
that when HFC NBN comes to my area I will no longer be able to have a HFC connection with Telstra
Telstra have indicated that they will be offering service of NBN HFC, but have not done so yet. There is very little NBN HFC active at the moment.
In any case, existing Telstra HFC users in NBN areas which have gone already gone will have 18 months before Telstra must cease supply of its own HFC service.
Telstra must cease supply of its own HFC service.
That might be the worst part, they cease supply of its hfc giving a good speed over close to or over 100mbs, and the nbn might b putting so many on the legs it can only manage a minimum of 25/5
With tonights ABC Four corners focusing on Cyber War, and the lack of public information on the reason's why Telstra appears to be refusing to retail NBN RFS HFC (Telstra or Optus) at the moment, combined with the AFP citing National Security in relation to the NBN raids and the leaking of internal NBN HFC documents, will only fuel speculation that there might be something, somewhere in the NBN HFC Network, that is not yet deemed secure enough for Telstra to be prepared to take the risk of retailing it to anyone.
and the nbn might b putting so many on the legs it can only manage a minimum of 25/5
There is no realistic indication at all that will occur.
somewhere in the NBN HFC Network, that is not yet deemed secure enough for Telstra to be prepared to take the risk of retailing it to anyone.
And just because you are not paranoid, it does not mean they are not out to get you!
And just because you are not paranoid, it does not mean they are not out to get you!
Que?
My point being that mushrooms often grow in dark moist locations.
My point being that mushrooms often grow in dark moist locations.
Actually why are Telstra taking their sweet time to offer and NBN HFC product? I can only think the obvious reason that given they had 20 years to get customers on their Telstra HFC they are no hurry to move these over to NBN anytime soon. And Telstra probably don't expect much from non-Telstra cable broadband customers who never bothered in the first place to get on to Telstra HFC and would probably go for the el cheapo NBN RSPs anyway.
Actually why are Telstra taking their sweet time to offer and NBN HFC product?
In my discussions with Telstra yesterday, looks like they might be ready to release this service to Redcliffe by end of September/ early October. Don't know what the delay was as their competitors have been good to go from RFS 30th June. Belong will sell to me today which is odd.
I had wondered if Telstra had reservations selling their product over a network they didn't previously own.
And Telstra probably don't expect much from non-Telstra cable broadband customers who never bothered in the first place to get on to Telstra HFC and would probably go for the el cheapo NBN RSPs anyway.
If Telstra HFC had high upload speeds (15+) i'd have signed up as soon as it became available. I still will signup to the first ISP that reaches me that can offer those speeds reliably that has reasonable datacaps.
I wonder why Telstra dont get the jump on NBN rsp's and offer those upload speeds on thier network now.
When HFC is rolled out in an area will NBN test all lead-ins or does this only happen when one signs up with an ISP?
Question � Just found out that there's a whole bunch of money sitting in my body corporate's account, which will cover 70% of the installation cost for 3 MDUs (via commercial quote) � need a new tap/splitter installed.
I'm willing to foot the next few hundred dollars so that I can get HFC. No biggie. However, with the recent talk of less people getting HFC, is there a chance that NBN may decommission the HFC in my area, and just go FTTN? Have I understood that correctly? Is there a chance I'd be wasting my money, and eventually end up on copper anyway!?
Is there a chance I'd be wasting my money, and eventually end up on copper anyway!?
Given the entire process is political, and there are whiffs of FTTdp floating around, you may be better waiting and seeing whether those $ could be spent on an upgrade to FTTP (assuming they start using a model that allows for lower "FTTP upgrade" path costs)
edit: Is it Telstra or Optus? If it's Optus, I wouldn't be spending a cent on it.
edit: Is it Telstra or Optus? If it's Optus, I wouldn't be spending a cent on it.
Telstra, not a whiff of Optus anywhere. All Copper/HFC in my area. There is quite a large lack of ports, as per the advice from Telstra.
there are whiffs of FTTdp floating around
First I've heard of this, thought it was just all smoke and mirrors? I live in a simple 3 unit MDU, as is half the suburb now, due to the large block sizes.
is there a chance that NBN may decommission the HFC in my area, and just go FTTN? Have I understood that correctly? Is there a chance I'd be wasting my money, and eventually end up on copper anyway!?
Yes. Particularly if there are lots of MDU's and other premise that currently have no Telstra HFC lead-ins and that currently have copper lead-ins.
All Copper/HFC in my area. There is quite a large lack of ports, as per the advice from Telstra.
In that case you should go ahead with the HFC installation, as HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
In that case you should go ahead with the HFC installation, as HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
Computer says yes!
Yes. Particularly if there are lots of MDU's and other premise that currently have no Telstra HFC lead-ins and that currently have copper lead-ins.
Computer says no!
HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
Not if Telstra has historically refused to connect most of those MDU's to their HFC Network, or they have offered to connect MDU's to their HFC Network. at a price that has not seen many takers. and that did not go ahead unless all the MDU owners in each small block agreed, which is often the sticking point to getting HFC into MDU's after they have been built.
Then again, if a high % of those small blocks of MDU's had Telstra HFC built in when they were first built, Software Tools might be on the money.
In that case you should go ahead with the HFC installation, as HFC take up in the area will already be strong.
Are you prepared to underwrite up to 50% of Bogchops customer Telstra HFC installation cost if your advice turns out to be the wrong advice and his Telstra HFC is decommissioned/replaced with FTTN or something else within a few years?
Then again, if all those small MDU's self fund their Telstra HFC lead-ins pre-NBN, there's a good chance that the Telstra HFC will not be decommissioned in his area :)
Can someone decipher/expand/speculate on this: http://www.itnews.com.au/news
Would it be like fttdp only fed by coax instead of fibre? So the yet to be produced device (if it ever gets manufactured) that goes into the pit would be like a remote cable modem that converts the signals into VDSL so that the home without a HFC lead-in can then use their existing phone lead-in with a VDSL modem inside the home; is that how it is meant to work?
Sounds truly bizarre. I'm wondering why nbn are spending time/money on R&D for such things in order to prolong alternatives to fibre.
It's the "we'll do/lay anything but fibre, no matter what"
What they are trying to implement is a technology that is only for a small subset of consumers that are only in Australia and no where else in the world.
I've looked at fibre and was wondering what the poor thing did to the person who invented the Internet in Australia but can't find it.
the home without a HFC lead-in can then use their existing phone lead-in with a VDSL modem inside the home; is that how it is meant to work?
Pretty much.
Now I'm just waiting for NBNCo to announce their new technology for HFC to Telegraph conversion.
Don't know why they don't just glue some copper on some cockroaches. Nice mesh network and it's not fibre.
What they are trying to implement is a technology that is only for a small subset of consumers that are only in Australia and no where else in the world.
Well, I hope they can pay to build enough spares to deal with any reliability problems, both short term and for however long this "solution" is intended to last.
Putting in HFC lead-ins must be really expensive stuff to justify ideas like this.
Now I'm just waiting for NBNCo to announce their new technology for HFC to Telegraph conversion.
They will probably want to patent that too � wouldn't want anyone stealing these ideas away. :-)
They will probably want to patent that too � wouldn't want anyone stealing these ideas away. :-)
Because of:
It is restricted by the fact that no hardware currently exists to support its novel approach.
They will probably want to patent that too
Next we'll have VDSL delivered by sub space communicator.
Putting in HFC lead-ins must be really expensive stuff to justify ideas like this
RG6 quad shielded coax is about 3 times the cost of fibre per meter now!
I'm wondering why nbn are spending time/money on R&D for such things in order to prolong alternatives to fibre.
Because Rupert Murdoch is still making money from Foxtel, and high speed internet will stop that sooner.
So the yet to be produced device (if it ever gets manufactured) that goes into the pit would be like a remote cable modem that converts the signals into VDSL so that the home without a HFC lead-in can then use their existing phone lead-in with a VDSL modem inside the home; is that how it is meant to work?
It's actually nothing new... there were trials 10 years ago of devices, manufactured by Netgear, that were 'ruggedised' 802.11g WiFi Access Points, with built-in DOCSIS modems, that hung off the cable in the street. These were to sell internet services to unit blocks that were close by, over a WiFi connection. But, I guess, WiFi is flaky enough that it never took off.
Build a device (i.e a bridge) with DOCSIS in one end and ethernet in the other (and this is actually just the same as a DOCSIS modem) and bury it in the street. It still doesn't change the bus network nature of a DOCSIS network.
Build a device (i.e a bridge) with DOCSIS in one end and ethernet in the other (and this is actually just the same as a DOCSIS modem) and bury it in the street. It still doesn't change the bus network nature of a DOCSIS network.
but this takes DOCSIS and converts it to VDSL, not ethernet, which then gets converted to ethernet in the customers premises
but the underlying network is as you say HFC, just lots of conversions taking place
Putting in HFC lead-ins must be really expensive stuff to justify ideas like this.
yeah, i don't get it. i live in a standalone house in the eastern suburbs of sydney, admittedly the front yard is pretty small so not a long run.
When I had Optus cable installed last year it took one tech 2 hours to run the cable from the pole to my house, then run the cable through the roof and down the wall into the lounge room. How much could that have cost really?
Oh I forgot, another crew had to come late and night to run the cable across the road outside to the HFC cable
Oh I forgot, another crew had to come late and night to run the cable across the road outside to the HFC cable
So, a cherry picker, a crew of 3-4 technicians and someone to guide traffic around the workers while they run the cable. How much would that really cost?
in case death was mistakenly declared and a person was buried alive, a patent was put forward for a 'life-indicator' coffin, where the buried person could rotate a set of handles to move a dial above ground.
Our FTTN and HFC NBN is in that coffin, and the Liberal party with Malcolm at the helm are madly spinning the dial...
In areas where there is currently only Optus HFC, what makes you think they are going to abandon HFC and use FTTN instead?
There are currently only talks happening between NBNCo and Optus for work in the Optus HFC areas. Talks and discussions, not even negotiations.
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas, like mine, it's hardly surprising that many people are concerned that their existing Optus HFC might get abandoned and replaced with FTTN or worse if they are a loser in any FTTN lottery.
Also this from Morrow last week.
The 800,000 or so premises in the Optus HFC footprint may end up with a fibre-to-the-node service but NBN chief executive Bill Morrow has played down that prospect, saying the Optus network was still very much in play.
�The discussions with Optus are ongoing and the network can be upgraded to meet our needs and what the retail service providers want, just as we have done with the Telstra HFC network � he said. �We haven�t completed all of the discussions to definitively decide how much of the Optus network we are going to use.�
Which could mean none of it (apart from their trial site at Redcliffe). Too early to tell.
Considering the NBN is running new lead-ins for 'underground' Telstra HFC up the power poles to do an aerial install, obviously the NBN is going to continue to lease use of the power poles � irregardless of what happens with the Optus HFC infrastructure.
Obviously. But there were already concerns raised by the poles and wires owners about the weight load on their poles from additional/thicker HFC gear than the current stuff connected to it. So you would have thought that the poles and wire owners and NBNCo would be keen to get any no longer required Optus gear off their infrastructure for this reason alone.
Our FTTN and HFC NBN is in that coffin, and the Liberal party with Malcolm at the helm are madly spinning the dial...
Voluntary digital euthanasia or an off switch. Am being challenged deciding between these 2 options.
Who else is in the coffin with the FTTN/HFC. The liberal part of Malcolm, Abbott, NBNCo?
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas
Construction may have started in my Optus only HFC area scheduled for H2 2016:
/forum-replies.cfm?t=25
/forum-replies.cfm?t=2547463
In areas where there is currently only Optus HFC, what makes you think they are going to abandon HFC and use FTTN instead?
Because the non-overlap area is about 1.4 million premises and its the Optus network that is in the worst shape.
http://www.theregister.co.uk
As a result of problems with the Optus network, nbnTM CEO Bill Morrow told a Senate committee in March that network (bought at a cost of $800 million) won't support the 500,000 customers originally expected.
Maybe todays ACCC report explains why Telstra is not yet retailing HFC in the NBN HFC (ex Telstra) RFS areas.
Not according to this:
whrl.pl/ReHGoC
Their resident NBN Specialist advised me that my current Telstra Broadband Bundle cable internet should be converted to HFC NBN on 21 October 2016.
Seems like once Telstra NBN HFC is good to go later this month they may start moving Telstra cable customers over once an area is declared RFS. This is still legit (unless they do this before an area becomes RFS!_ but means Telstra cable customers will have an automatic transition NBN HFC and will definitely disadvantage other RSPs, especially if you are recontracted another 24 months for this (with the opt-out clause in the fine print).
Construction may have started in my Optus only HFC area scheduled for H2 2016:
Clearing of trees around the overhead HFC and electricity wires between the poles is something that the local Council does in my area at least once a year.
That occurring in your Shire (NSW) location is probably not a sign of an NBN Optus only HFC construction start.
Seems like once Telstra NBN HFC is good to go later this month they may start moving Telstra cable customers over once an area is declared RFS.
Telstra are already doing exactly this for ADSL customers now in FTTN areas.
Telstra are already doing exactly this for ADSL customers now in FTTN areas.
Except that for ADSL other ISPs can do similar so this provides some balance. With HFC there is only the one Telstra who can do this.
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas
Are you sure? The brown areas of this map indicate Optus only cable areas that look to be on track for service later this year.
(The purple bits are a new infill estate with FTTP)
Are you sure? The brown areas of this map indicate Optus only cable areas that look to be on track for service later this year.
Looks like our neighbours in Pascoe Vale & Coburg North have just gone to build commenced with HFC.
They were listed as H2 2016 in the 3 year rollout, and so were we in Glenroy. Let's hope this points to the 3 year plan for HFC being on track. It should give us an idea of build length too.
Thanks Yob. Fixed Line has commenced in that area. And the latest Telstra list has it being RFS Jan-Mar 2017.
What we don't definitely yet know, is if NBNCo have switched from the originally planned HFC to FTTN.
Or who is doing any HFC build in this area for NBNCo?
Fixed Line has commenced in that area. And the latest Telstra list has it being RFS Jan-Mar 2017.
What we don't definitely yet know, is if NBNCo have switched from the originally planned HFC to FTTN
I can't say for sure, but I'd be very surprised if it's not HFC. The spent a fair amount of effort building new aerial lead-ins from the optus cable earlier this year: /archive/2467389#r49210822
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
The same as whats available now. (100/40 etc).
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
nbn has been sending mixed messages about this.
When critics ask why HFC when FTTP can do 1000/400 now, nbn say that no one needs those kind of speeds.
When nbn hear the potential of DOCSIS 3.1, they shout from the rooftops that they will be able to offer 1000/100 to customers on it (so the *potential* of it suits their PR campaign).
When asked how much HFC upgrades are expected to cost, they tell us that DOCSIS 3.1 is a cheaper way that will allow them to avoid/delay doing node splits that otherwise would have been needed to help maintain the advertised speeds that they will be selling. So it has become a cost cutting exercise now more so than a capacity upgrade.
TL;DR version, it will depend how much money/effort nbn put into it. DOCSIS 3.1 alone is not a magic bullet.
What would we expect to be the U/D speeds once Telstra's HFC is migrated to the NBN and upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 ?
If the NBN spends the cash to fix DOCSIS 3.0 it's really good but as the minimum is only 25/5 I sure that the NBN won't spend the money to do it right.
As for DOCSIS 3.1 it need a massive upgrade to get it working at 1000/400 which the NBN won't do.
I am on iinet cable DOCSIS 3.0 who has has spent the money to it right
my speed test it's never gone below 200/40
http://www.speedtest.net/my-result/5466630411
Mr.Wizzard
So you would have thought that the poles and wire owners and NBNCo would be keen to get any no longer required Optus gear off their infrastructure for this reason alone.
I would expect they'd only remove the gear at the same time they replace it with something else. To send a crew out with the sole purpose of removing gear would be a waste of money.
I would expect they'd only remove the gear at the same time they replace it with something else. To send a crew out with the sole purpose of removing gear would be a waste of money.
Good point.
With the original 93% Fibre NBN, all the Aerial Optus HFC was to be decommissioned.
There must be someone reading this thread that is in the know about what the plan was for removing the Aerial Optus HFC gear from the power poles and the Optus HFC lead ins from the premises.
There must be someone reading this thread that is in the know about what the plan was for removing the Aerial Optus HFC gear from the power poles and the Optus HFC lead ins from the premises.
You're assuming they actually had a plan...
Yea im with Telstra cable with speedboost and i'm hoping i can close to your iinet speeds once Telstra HFC gets upgraded to NBN/DOSCIS 3.1
i'm hoping i can close to your iinet speeds
You won't.
The deployment of DOCSIS 3.1 by NBN, if/when it actually happens, won't be to increase maximum speed.
The deployment of DOCSIS 3.1 by NBN, if/when it actually happens, won't be to increase maximum speed.
Mr Steiger said the cost of delivering the hybrid-fibre coaxial (HFC) portion of the network is unlikely to move higher even as the infrastructure is upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1 standard � capable of delivering symmetrical multi-gigabit broadband speeds � in 2018.
�DOCSIS 3.1 won�t lead to a significant uptick in prices and is only required for those customers that choose high speeds, DOCSIS 3.0 already supports up to gigabit per second,� Mr Steiger told The Australian.
�The upgrade is all about bandwidth efficiency so the costs will actually come down.�
Costs to NBNCo come down, but that does not infer that the cost of wholesale, retail HFC high speeds will be cheap. Just an opportunity for NBNCo to be more profitable (or less lossable) .
With NBNCo effectively saying last week that faster than 100/40 speeds with DOCSIS 3.1 will only be offered to customers who need/want it (and are prepared to pay for it).
Will DOCSIS 3.1 be like the rest of the NBN/MTM Technology choice program, where very few are actually eligible to get it, even if they need it. With those eligible for DOCSIS 3.1, facing lengthy delays in even getting initial or final quotes and then receiving massive $ quotes that make it not just unaffordable, but expose the dirty no so anymore little secret, that the Fibre is not being extended from the FTTN nodes, in providing FTTP on demand as an upgrade to FTTN?
Highly unlikely, as DOCSIS 3.1 speed upgrades (>100/40) should just be a replacement premise modem and the flick of a digital switch or 2. With one big set of caveats, in that it will only be available where
1. Your segment of the HFC Network has been upgraded to DOCSIS 3.1
2. NBNCo Network has the capacity to support DOCSIS 3.1 speeds for multiple customers at the same time
3. NBNCo decides to provide it to RSP's, as opposed to just having the capacity to provide it, in order to show any potential competition that overbuilding the HFC with FTTP is not going to be financially viable for a competitor.
4. Your RSP has the backhaul and CVC to support the extra capacity to support it
5. Your RSP is willing to retail it
With the risk that like all of the other MTM technology's, that your RSP has enough CVC to provide the increased speeds during peak hours that you have just purchased. Imagine if you purchase HFC DOCSIS 3.1 200/100 plan and find that at peak hours you still only get up to 25/5 during peak data hours, when it is peak data hours that you actually need the 200/100 speeds.
Wonder what the initial monthly retail price will be on a 200/200, 500/500 plan or a 1000/1000 plan with unlimited data? $200, $300. $500 or $1000 per month?
The deployment of DOCSIS 3.1 by NBN, if/when it actually happens, won't be to increase maximum speed.
All this talk by NBNCo in regards to FTTdp, CTTdp and of couse D3.1 is just fluff to make it look like NBNCo are cost-savvy innovators with a large investor growth potential. I don't see any of these being deployed as there is no reason for NBNCo to do this, maybe only FTTdp to replace FTTN so up to 100/40 speeds can be provided once they think the demand is there. Absolutely no reason for D3.1, if D3.0 can offer 100/40 already, at least not for residential use (not sure about business, does D3.1 provide guaranteed QoS for data?).
Absolutely no reason for D3.1
They would be upgrading to D3.1 because of the efficiency benefits which would decrease congestion, all the stuff about having faster speeds is rubbish.
all the stuff about having faster speeds is rubbish
Sure, but thats all the end user seems to be able to comprehend. They don't understand the benefits of increasing the speed/width of the shared medium. It's very different to the last mile of copper in FTTN argument.
They don't understand the benefits of increasing the speed/width of the shared medium.
This will only happen if NBNCo see the need (severe contention which they need to resolve). However from my reading there are other options they can exercise before they ever need D3.1: utilise the bandwidth vacated by Telstra and virtual splits by using more ports on the CMTS. It is only when they are faced with physical splits of the HFC segment and have used up all the available bandwidth that going to D3.1 may be more cost effective. This could be many years down the track, certainly not as early as 2017.
It is only when they are faced with physical splits of the HFC segment and have used up all the available bandwidth that going to D3.1 may be more cost effective. This could be many years down the track, certainly not as early as 2017.
Any early deployment of D3.1 is more likely to be to make the HFC appear more attractive for an early asset sale/divestment then to satisfy immediate consumer needs and demand.
does D3.1 provide guaranteed QoS for data?).
Sort of. DOCSIS 3.1 does require Active Queue Management (AQM) be included in the modems to manage the upload bandwidth and bufferbloat. The default queue management algorithm chosen for DOCSIS 3.1 modems is DOCSIS-PIE:
While DOCSIS-PIE isn't exactly the gold standard in AQM, it will do a lot to minimise induced latency under load conditions, ie. you will be able to play a game while simultaneously saturating your upload bandwidth with a large upload.
http://www.cablelabs.com/how
I use Cake (on OpenWRT) to manage my downstream and upstream bandwidth on a 100/40 Mbps TPG NBN service. Cake does a very good job at evenly sharing the available bandwidth by IP address (a feature called triple-isolation), regardless of how many connections a particular PC may be trying to make.
https://www.bufferbloat.net/
Is there any word on when existing HFC users on Optus/Telstra will be able to migrate to other resellers via the NBN?
Is there any word on when existing HFC users on Optus/Telstra will be able to migrate to other resellers via the NBN?
More or less, when NBN declares the NBN HFC service in your locality as being RFS. See the NBN rollout schedule for the current estimate on when that might be.
I moved from Telstra cable 100/2 to Optus HFC NBN 50/20 last Thursday. So far, it's been a good move.
Are you sure? The brown areas of this map indicate Optus only cable areas that look to be on track for service later this year.
(The purple bits are a new infill estate with FTTP)
Another bit of evidence for them not having given up on Optus HFC areas is in Newport VIC.
They're recently started an FTTN build in the next suburb south, Williamstown. To the north is Kingsville and Yarraville which already have FTTP. Every address I've put into the Optus cable checker that's in the brown shaded area south of Newport says ADSL. Every address in the unshaded area (Newport) says Optus cable is available. So they're deliberately leaving the Optus HFC area alone for now.
they're deliberately leaving the Optus HFC area alone for now.
Hardly surprising if NBNCo are still reporting that they have not yet finished "discussions" with Optus yet, related to the Optus HFC.
Hopefully not a repost: http://www.watoday.com.au/tec
Potentially how some of us in-fills are going to get done 8-(
I'm pretty sure you infills are NOT gonna get done. it appears that the NBN has discovered the rolling out new HFC and leadins is just as expensive (if not more expensive) that rolling out FTTP.
FTTN for you unfortunately.
I'm pretty sure you infills are NOT gonna get done. it appears that the NBN has discovered the rolling out new HFC and leadins is just as expensive (if not more expensive) that rolling out FTTP.
Read that link I posted, it wasn't about HFC for infill, was about connecting the copper to the HFC rather than a fibre node. I think that's going to be even worse.
Read that link I posted, it wasn't about HFC for infill, was about connecting the copper to the HFC rather than a fibre node. I think that's going to be even worse.
http://www.netcommwireless.c
FTTN for you unfortunately.
Boy I sure am lucky I have an existing lead-in and one cable for:
- Foxtel cable (can get all FTA channels)
- Bigpond cable
Since otherwise I would be looking at:
- Foxtel satellite only with limited FTA channels and an ugly satellite dish on the roof which goes out with heavy rains
- NBN HFC via CTTdp to my myriad phone sockets and associate copper wiring mess which gave me so much heartache with ADSL
Get in quick with your Foxtel cable order before it is too late!
Get in quick with your Foxtel cable order before it is too late!
Yeah for sure. Glad I paid for a lead-in too earlier this year.
Get in quick with your Foxtel cable order before it is too late!
Likewise, anyone that knows of anyone that has not yet taken my repeated strong recommendations over the last 12 months to get your Optus or Telstra HFC free lead-in whilst you could, should do it now before it is too late.
Boy I sure am lucky I have an existing lead-in and one cable for:
Foxtel cable (can get all FTA channels)
Yeah but!
My Foxtel comes into my family room (downstairs rear) where the TV is. That is the primary / sole use of that cable connection.
My Optus cable comes into my study (upstairs, front), where my router, initial switches, analogue phone connection wiring entry point, and servers are.
I fully expect NBN to tell me I have to pay to re-configure my wiring because they elect to change my connection point.
BTW, I cannot even tell from their website when I am planned for connection.
Faster, cheaper, quicker!
http://www.netcommwireless.
Hmm, this is a 4-port device, so if three of your neighbours have lead-ins and you don't, they have one whole CTTdp device just for you. And how the heck they use this if there is a tap in the pit already with active lead-ins? Do they run this device after the tap where your lead-in would otherwise be or deploy it independently of the tap?
Damn confusing this!
My Foxtel comes into my family room (downstairs rear) where the TV is. That is the primary / sole use of that cable connection.
My Optus cable comes into my study (upstairs, front), where my router, initial switches, analogue phone connection wiring entry point, and servers are.
I fully expect NBN to tell me I have to pay to re-configure my wiring because they elect to change my connection point.
How about cancelling your Foxtel and insisting they use the same existing point where your working Optus Cable Internet is when it comes time to set up your connection point for your NBN HFC (likely connected to the ex-Telstra HFC gear). You can then order your Foxtel again after the NBN HFC has been activated.
That should get you what you want. But you might have to insist on what you want, before you allow them into your premises and be prepared to escalate it via Social Media and to your local State and Federal MP's if there is push back.
A big risk with taking my advice, is that if you do not allow the current Telstra connection point be used for your NBN HFC, they might threaten to put you on the list of HFC to be connected via copper lead-ins, and you have to wait until any such product is ready to roll and your turn comes around on the list of the million or so that might also be earmarked for this HFC via copper lead-ins.
Phg thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate that. I will also think about it when the time finally comes. (currently on 100/2 on Optus cable, would like better upload but not unhappy). $54B?
We all know it shouldn't be like this.
What is maximum speed for NBN HFC? 100/40?
Are TPG, Telstra and Optus the only HFC RSPs at the moment?
Are TPG, Telstra and Optus the only HFC RSPs at the moment?
no. exetel is one as well
Are TPG, Telstra and Optus the only HFC RSPs at the moment?
What evidence do you have that Telstra (not Belong) is currently retailing RFS NBN HFC?
Hi there, I am in Newport too (William St). My house is at the back of a larger house (which gets the Optus cable), so no cable for me :-(
I called NBN a few months ago and they told me that:
1) Half of Newport will get FTTN and half HFC
2) no-one will be left behind (so my house will get NBN too).
Called them again just now (I have seen yr other post re: us being sandwiched between 2 NBN areas) and they told me that construction work in Newport should start Q3'16 (which is now) and shd be completed a year later. Do you have any more news on this??
I don't know about you, but I can't wait to get a decent connection ( I am with iiNet ADSL and I typically get 8mbps, as opposed to 15 on my phone through Optus 4G!).
From the NBN Ocean Reef HFC thread today, further confirmation that Telstra appears to still not ready to launch it's NBN HFC product and the challenges that NBNCo is going to have trying to convince people to migrate from consistently high 100/2 speeds on peoples current HFC, before they are forced to migrate in UP TO 18 months time after NBN starts the HFC RFS gun.
I recently received a letter from NBN saying that it was now connected in Ocean Reef, i tried my address on Telstra's site only to be told it is still being tested?
Question, currently on Cable and getting 90-100 Mb down, 2Mb up consistently � reading through the Forums, it appears that this seems to be more than the download speed people are getting on NBN.
Apart from some online gaming that the kids and i do, is it worth swapping over to the NBN considering the cable speeds are pretty good anyway? The NBN speeds seem to fluctuate alot?
From the NBN Ocean Reef HFC thread today, further confirmation that Telstra appears to still not ready to launch it's NBN HFC product and the challenges that NBNCo is going to have trying to convince people to migrate from consistently high 100/2 speeds on peoples current HFC, before they are forced to migrate in UP TO 18 months time after NBN starts the HFC RFS gun.
Yet some are arguing that takeup rate of high speed plans are lower lol. The public perception is NBN in some areas now cant match fixed wireless and Telstra HFC on speeds.
Called them again just now (I have seen yr other post re: us being sandwiched between 2 NBN areas) and they told me that construction work in Newport should start Q3'16 (which is now) and shd be completed a year later. Do you have any more news on this??
I don't know about you, but I can't wait to get a decent connection ( I am with iiNet ADSL and I typically get 8mbps, as opposed to 15 on my phone through Optus 4G!).
I've not spoken to NBN, but I got a letter nearly a year ago about our house being selected for the HFC construction trial (where they just work out the best way of getting the lead-in to your house). It was due to be done by April, but that deadline passed with no activity. A friend on William St (around the Ross St area) also had the same letter, with the same lack of activity.
You might want to look at the wiring of your house. I'm a few streets west of you (so further from the exchange on Hall St) and my Internode ADSL2 syncs at 19,000, and speed tests at about 14Mbit on a good day.
Yet some are arguing that takeup rate of high speed plans are lower lol.
If there are fears and perceptions that the up to 100/40 NBN HFC speed tier will have either lower download
- average speeds
- peak speeds
- peak hours speeds
or less reliable and more variable speeds than their current Optus or Telstra HFC up to 100/2 services,
initial takeup of the high speed NBN plans could be low, as current high speed Optus and Telstra 100/2 customers wait to see reports from users they trust (as opposed to claims from NBN or RSP's), as to what download speeds are being received and how these speeds and reliability compare with the up to 100Mbps download speeds that the migrated users used to get on Optus or Telstra up to 100/2. Whilst also keeping an eye on the level of and impact of any issues during the migration period, that result in any material disruptions and issues with existing services, continuity of services, disruption during installation/migration, and quality and the quality and reliability of fixed voice over NBN HFC.
initial takeup of the high speed NBN plans could be low, as current high speed Optus and Telstra 100/2 customers wait to see reports from users they trust
Of course, initial speed reports will be a "best case" scenario... as the first users will be running will very little contention. Things will likely get progressively worse as people migrate over, and can't churn back again.
or less reliable and more variable speeds than their current Optus or Telstra HFC up to 100/2 services,
What are the experiences of people who have already upgraded from cable internet to NBN over HFC? :)
(well I hope it's over HFC, I would be not impressed to be told the mandatory upgrade to NBN will be via ADSL over telephone line in my street!)
Apparently, a speedcheck service already says my connection speed is 80 Mbps over cable (which is I guess is idealised? fair enough... upload is only 2.5 Mbps however) for just $80/month...
would NBN be slower and cost more? Or would NBN be faster and cost less? :)
Being a mandatory upgrade to be completed within 18 months once NBN arrives in an area (IIRC), I guess some people must have already completed this upgrade? :)
I moved from Telstra cable 100/2 to Optus HFC NBN 50/20 last Thursday. So far, it's been a good move.
Excellent!
Can you tell me more about the changes in cost and data allowance? :)
An upgrade from 2 Mbps to 20 Mbps upload speed sounds nifty, whereas 100 to 50 should make no discernable difference on the download side (right?). :)
FTTN for you unfortunately.
NBN HFC via CTTdp to my myriad phone sockets and associate copper wiring mess which gave me so much heartache with ADSL
Hmmm. :/
Would you say NBN(Co) are more interested in getting it finished, regardless of a poor result, rather than providing the best possible result for customers? :)
If there are fears and perceptions that the up to 100/40 NBN HFC speed tier will have either lower download
- average speeds
- peak speeds
- peak hours speeds
or less reliable and more variable speeds than their current Optus or Telstra HFC up to 100/2 services,
WIth NBN 100/40 this is a certainty since even on FTTP (the gold standard) you get no more than around 96 Mbps download, with Telstra HFC you can get up to 115 Mbps. With Fast cable which is comparable to NBN Tier 2 you go from 36 Mbps with Telstra HFC down to around 23 Mbps with NBN HFC (much worse). Of course you can opt for the 50/20 Tier 3 but that requires an extra (costly) speedboost that you don't need with Telstra HFC.
Would you say NBN(Co) are more interested in getting it finished, regardless of a poor result, rather than providing the best possible result for customers? :)
Nbn� is running out of government money, so as cheap as possible is the expected result.
I know someone's probably asked this already but why can't they just hand over the current HFC users to the NBN now. Surely it doesn't take 2 years to transfer users who already have a working service.
Won't it be (slightly) more expensive and slightly slower (apart from uploads) from what I gather, plus more potential congestion etc. Are you sure you want that?
3. Increasing the capacity of the HFC network to allow for all additional users ...
["4. Increasing the capacity of the parts of the HFC Network that are struggling under the existing load, or that are in disrepair,
The doability and viability of what would be the worlds 1st HFCttVDSL...
Gosh, wouldn't it have been so much easier just to build a brand new network altogether...
No need to pay off Telstra and Optus, no need to hodge podge all these different technologies together... :/
Do you mean when some people start moving between properties and taking the Arris modem with them (even though there is advice NOT to do this) that it may not work at their new address?
No, it will still work, but how NBN Co do it for FTTH, and how I would expect it for HFC is that the HFC modem is bound to the location ID. You can take it with you, but it will cause problems. FWIW this binding is what Opticomm do with their HFC so its not new. The Arris modem is the property of NBN Co, removing it without authorisation is a federal offence as it is a declared network termination device (thus part of the carrier network).
What if a neighbour loans you their Arris modem, will it still work?
Probably (for why only probable but not certain see below), but you will get their service, or if they have no service will have to be ordered to your neighbours address, but again, carrier network equipment is a federal offence to interfere with, so would be illegal to do.
Hard to believe that it can be bound to a specific address (apart from an entry in their database
This is exactly what I mean. If you take the Arris modem with you from say Chadstone, Melbourne and move to Blacktown, NSW it probably won't work. I imagine that they would have controls in place to prevent this from happening (i.e: a Victorian Location ID registering on a NSW CMTS). I don't know how they are managing the HFC network, but they could bind it to CMTS, or even down to the port on the CMTS. If its the former the modem would work anywhere within the service area that has HFC, and if its the latter it would only work on the virtual optical node (either physical optical node, or if they are doing virtual splits, all optical nodes that share the same downlink port). They could of course restrict it further by limiting it to the uplink port too. Given the speeds that NBN Co are offering for upload it is likely that on an optical node even if they use 1 downlink port for all segments (4-way segmenaible) they will be using an uplink port for each segment. In the case where you and your neighbour are on different optical nodes or different segments, and it is locked down to the uplink port you wouldn't be able to use their modem. This would be consistent too, AIUI with FTTH they lock the NTD to the port that your LOCID is assigned to on the FSAM.
I suppose with the whole competition thing that they (in particular the ACCC) don't just want to auto setup Telstra as the retailer on nbn's systems for these existing connections, even though the bulk of them will probably end up that way.
Correct. ACCC already have enough problems with Telstra having insider knowledge of when an area is going to be ready as they are the construction partner. An automatic flick of the switch transition would certainly be of great concern to them.
Are the changes to nbn's IT systems even complete to handle HFC connections?
We would need a committee hearing to ask that question, and even then the response will probably be CiC, but, I would say its likely that they are. They've had nearly 3 years to implement all the changes for FTTB/N and HFC, even if they waited until they signed their supply contract, they had a bit over 1 year 4 months to make the system ready for service. If a 1000 member strong I.T team can't get that ready in time, the lot of them need to be sacked because they're a waste of money.
Perhaps that could be another reason they want to take an ordered (read: slow) approach to this and not have it turn into a major debacle for them.
I think its more likely that they want to get the NTD installation procedure in order first. Establish procedures for this, then hand over the manual on how to do it to RSPs given they want to palm this task off onto them.
6SPT-05 which is in the middle of a FTTP area and nominally listed for HFC is also absent from the WA roll-out list...again. Any thoughts...I have this feeling we are going to be left with some tail end rollout years down the line.
II have been limping along on average ASDL 4/1 have the option of jumping to Telstra cable...I have put it off as the NBN has been always imminent but I'm thinking of giving up on the NBN. If I switch to cable now does that mean when NBN does turn up the will need to leave me on cable rather than switch me back to copper?
Are the changes to nbn's IT systems even complete to handle HFC connections? There were some doubts that they would be ready this early and that manual steps would be required in the interim. Perhaps that could be another reason they want to take an ordered (read: slow) approach to this and not have it turn into a major debacle for them.
That may well be the reason why Telstra (excluding the Telstra owned Belong) is not yet retailing NBN HFC in either Ocean Reef (ex Telstra HFC) or Redcliffe (Ex Optus HFC) despite both areas being declared RFS and customers already ordering and with active services on the NBN HFC via Optus, TPG or Exetel.
Gosh, wouldn't it have been so much easier just to build a brand new network altogether...
That was the NBN Plan before the LNP came to power in 2013.
No need to pay off Telstra and Optus, no need to hodge podge all these different technologies together... :/
There were already payments set for Telstra and Optus under the pre- LNP 2013 plan for NBNCo to get a wholesale monopoly of all those Telstra and Optus HFC customers and to pay Telstra and Optus to shut down their HFC Networks (for Broadband use: Telstra could still use their HFC to deliver Foxtel), and to not use their HFC Networks or any other Fixed Line Network to compete against the NBNCo fixed line monopoly.
Do you mean when some people start moving between properties and taking the Arris modem with them
What happens to my nbn� connection box and other equipment if I move? Your nbn� supplied equipment is the property of nbn and should not be removed from the premises in which it was originally installed. Contact your service provider for advice on connecting services at your new premises.
Why would anyone need to take the NBN HFC Arris modem with them to a new property? Its of no use to them. It does not even have a build in router or wireless router.
WhatsNew, were you aware that the Arris modem is not a router or wireless router? That you will need to supply your own wireless router or use one supplied by your RSP that comes when you order your new NBN HFC.
['nbn� connection box: This is an Arris Touchstone CM820 Cable Modem. It is designed to deliver high-speed data and supports one data (UNI-D) port for connection to the equipment supplied by your service provider (such as your gateway (router) and Ethernet cable). Your nbn� connection box will be supplied with a power cord that will plug into a power point in your premises. Placement of your nbn� connection box: your nbn� connection box will be connected to the wall outlet via the supplied coaxial fly lead. It is designed to be free standing and can be placed either vertically or horizontally.
Your service provider should supply additional equipment such as a gateway (router) and Ethernet cable that will connect all of your internet and telephone devices as required.
I think its more likely that they want to get the NTD installation procedure in order first. Establish procedures for this, then hand over the manual on how to do it to RSPs given they want to palm this task off onto them.
With above linked retail customer user Guide having been out since June 2013. you'd have thought that the accompanying procedures manual for the tech installers would have been in place by now. They appear to be in place for Optus and TPG and Exetel.
Telstra must have something in mind for Ocean Reef, I am on HFC cable and got a letter this week inviting me to participate in their NBN HFC Pilot even offering me a credit to my existing account for the trouble.
I noticed HFC work on some backstreets in Salisbury North around January and Salisbury Hieghts/brahma lodge as far back as March. In July i started seeing work in Parafield gardens.
Yes, in July or August there was a 3 or 4 day interruption in Salisbury East of Foxtel for 'upgrades'.
I think the Salisbury area has had Telstra HFC for over 20 years now. Everyone i know in the area has at some point been signed up to Foxtel or cable as far back as 1996-98. So there should be allot of leadins already installed. I still know allot of people here on HFC for internet.
Interestingly, back then they even did some MDUs, for no install charge. Things are different these days.
Telstra must have something in mind for Ocean Reef, I am on HFC cable and got a letter this week inviting me to participate in their NBN HFC Pilot even offering me a credit to my existing account for the trouble.
How can NBNCo declare Ocean Reef WA as NBN RFS, when Telstra is only just about to do an NBN HFC Pilot.
More like Ready for sleep, than ready for service.
Or NBNCo's definition of service is not actually a working Service and is broad enough to exclude the market share leader (Telstra).
RFS should not be able to be declared until at least the three main RSP's Telstra, Optus and TPG (Group) are all ready to retail the HFC Services, or have a damn good excuse as to why they are not ready to retail HFC, and it is their own fault and not NBNCo's.
Why is Telstra only now doing an NBN HFC Pilot?
Surely this should have been done before NBNCo declared Ocean reef RFS, not after.
Apparently not. Looks like all the Perth metro HFC areas will be RFS by June 2017
Not sure if that's the case, I think some HFC areas have been cancelled and moved to FTTN installs. I think it may be related to this .
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/20
" NBN Co has moved 1.2 million premises from the �HFC� pile to the �FTTN� pile in its construction planning, which is bad news for anyone living in those premises. As for who that is exactly, we�ll have to wait a little longer to find out."
I might be wrong (and quite often am) but I think Woodvale and Kingsley (6KSL) which I believe have Tesltra HFC have had their RFS dates moved. Edgewater 6KSL also which was supposed to start FTTN in 3rd quarter 2016 no longer has an expected construction start due to "unexpected delays" elsewhere on the 6KSL project and I suspect Kinglsey will now be FTTN and also maybe Woodvale which accounts for the delay (so much for poorly served getting priority as per the SOE) to Edgewater which has really bad ADSL due to min 2.4 km distance from the Exchange (Wanneroo) and is considered E class by the mybroadband.
I suspect Kinglsey will now be FTTN and also maybe Woodvale which accounts for the delay
So why would they have installed an Arris CMTS a couple of months ago in the Kingsley exchange service area? Doesn't really make sense.
Also � I read the HFC being changed to FTTN was Optus HFC due to it's alleged poor condition. My Telstra cable works perfectly.
Like I said maybe wrong but look at this
NBN 3 year plan October 2015 http://www.nbnco.com.au/conte
" WA 6KSL Kingsley Darch, Edgewater, Landsdale, Madeley 9900 FTTN Q2-2016
WA 6KSL Kingsley Kingsley, Woodvale 7500 HFC H1-2017 "
Telstra RFS https://www.telstrawholesale.
Second sheet Expected RFS � DCD
6KSL-01 Landsdale WA Wangara Depot CSA 04-Nov-2016
6KSL-02 Darch,Landsdale WA Wangara Depot CSA 18-Nov-2016
6KSL-03 Darch,Landsdale,Madeley WA Wangara Depot CSA 16-Dec-2016
6KSL-04 Madeley WA Wangara Depot CSA 17-Feb-2017
6KSL-05 Kingsley WA Wangara Depot CSA 01-Aug-2017
KIngsley now 01 AUg 2017 and Woodvale and Edgewater not on the list
Probablyyou are right it doesn't make sense !
How long before NBNCo and the NBN RSP's employ a legion of forum monitors who come in to engage direct with retail customers on what is happening with specific parts of the rollout, like HFC, and answer NBN technical questions with posts for all to read and not just private messaging?
WhatsNew, were you aware that the Arris modem is not a router or wireless router?
I am fully aware and would not try, or have the desire, to take it with me personally, however I have seen others on whirlpool mention that FTTP NTDs have "gone missing" with previous occupants, and those devices are at least (always) fixed to walls (I believe) whereas the Arris modems are not. I'm sure it will happen that people will think they are their own property (much like any other comms device they've received in the past) and assume that they can use them at their new address.
I assume HFC connectivity is at the moment is via the local telephone exchange. In the case where the local exchange is being closed and the NBN is connected to a POI further away, where does that leave Foxtel subscribers ?
We would need a committee hearing to ask that question, and even then the response will probably be CiC, but, I would say its likely that they are. They've had nearly 3 years to implement all the changes for FTTB/N and HFC, even if they waited until they signed their supply contract, they had a bit over 1 year 4 months to make the system ready for service. If a 1000 member strong I.T team can't get that ready in time, the lot of them need to be sacked because they're a waste of money.
OK, I only mentioned it because it was raised several times as a risk in the Corporate Plan for 2016 (released in August 2015):
(page 32): The timely delivery of IT and network releases to support multiple technologies is also a critical challenge, as is RSP readiness (operationally and commercially) to sell and serve end-users at scale
(page 52): Critical path and milestones: development of an IT platform to support the construction trials and the H2-FY16 launch.
(page 56): IT has end-to-end solutions in place for FTTP, FW and FTTB, and is now building out LTSS, FTTN/B and commencing HFC (my bold).
(page 73): The timely delivery of IT and network releases to support multiple technologies is also a critical challenge, as is RSP readiness (operationally and commercially) to sell and serve end-users at scale (Oh, they said that one already).
(page 76): IT functionality: FTTN and HFC launch and scale capabilities are dependent on oversubscribed IT releases, and may require manual workarounds (when possible) or become delayed
They were concerned that any delays to the commercial launch dates would cost them a lot of money, hence even manual workarounds were considered acceptable.
I'd check the latest Corporate Plan to see what it says but I could only find a 16 page media release about it and not the actual CP.
I assume HFC connectivity is at the moment is via the local telephone exchange.
Iirc only about 200 exchanges are needed to host the existing Telstra HFC CMTS's.
So you are saying that even Telstra have not provisioned enough CVCs, and going from their Telstra Cable network to Telstra NBN will result in lower speeds due to congestion from them not taking up enough exorbitantly priced NBN CVCs (compared to the cheaper price they could previously move data across their own Telstra infrastructure)?
And yet Telstra AGVC, the equivalent to CVC for people using their wholesale network was more expensive again than CVC.
Surely they weren't gouging people worse than the evil NBN?
I'm sure it will happen that people will think they are their own property (much like any other comms device they've received in the past) and assume that they can use them at their new address.
Not if there is huge warning sticker on them, in multiple languages saying.
"Property of NBN"
"In case of moving property please leave for the next owner"
"It will not work at another property"
"It is worthless to sell, (a bit like the nbn:)
Wouldn't it be great if you could just pick up your Arris Modem that you had decorated to match the decor of your home, and just take it to your next home or small business and have exactly the same service, with the same performance as your previous home or small business. Just like was intended with the Utopia we can only dream of that was FTTP to over 90% of Australian non MDU's, FTTP to villas and townhouses, and small blocks of quickly doable units, with FTTB to the rest of the MDU's.
So they recently "did some upgrade work" on my HFC connection. I now see 119Mbit/2.4Mbit uncontested consistently. I do however note that some residents in the locale were swapped to an Arris CMTS, but many of us were left behind.
Does not being swapped to the Arris CMTS denote or suggest that some of us will be 'left behind' HFC NBN-wise? I've heard several people comment to the effect of the Arris CMTS being the NBN HFC platform....but?
Thoughts?
-z
I hope the tax payer has not paid for the Arris high speed Thingies if they are not going to be connected to the NBN after all
(so much for poorly served getting priority as per the SOE)
Very true.
I live in Surrey Hills ( Canterbury Exchange ), Melbourne where we have very good HFC.
110 + Mbps even in peak periods.
So surprising we are scheuled for HFC RFS on January 27, 2017.
I think this is happening because there is a large number of Foxtel and Cable Broadband households, so little work required on new lead-ins.
Seems to me this is being done for political reasons, so NBN can up its conmpletion statistics as quickly as possible.
That may well be the reason why Telstra (excluding the Telstra owned Belong) is not yet retailing NBN HFC
More likely because they have not settled with ACCC on the subject of not having an unfair advantage over other service providers because of their role as main contractor to NBN.
Surely they weren't gouging people worse than the evil NBN?
Oh Telstra is the worst! :) Not a Telstra fan here, there is just no choice, since ADSL is poor.
So surprising we are scheuled for HFC RFS on January 27, 2017.
Why surprising? :)
Seems to me this is being done for political reasons, so NBN can up its conmpletion statistics as quickly as possible.
It will allow ADSL users to move to the "faster, cheaper, better" new NBN that they were promised as quickly as possible, like you say. That's good, and surely speediness is the only reason to acquire HFC anyway? :)
More likely because they have not settled with ACCC on the subject of not having an unfair advantage over other service providers because of their role as main contractor to NBN.
Or because Foxtel is not ready yet and they have an agreement with Foxtel to launch retail HFC as the same time as Foxtel.
Or with my tin foil hat on ...... possibly Telstra only launch retail HFC under the Foxtel and the Belong Brand (that ones a long shot cos it might lose Telstra a whole load of market share for those not so enamoured with the Foxtel Brand or its current association with News Corp, Fox News in the US, or Rupert M in general)?
DUP
When ADSL users migrate to NBN's HFC will there be any sort of performance improvements to those stuck on copper in the infill areas?
When ADSL users migrate to NBN's HFC will there be any sort of performance improvements to those stuck on copper in the infill areas?
2020 is not far away and just networking limited parts of an area onto HFC and keeping ADSL running for a few more years would seem a strange design policy.
It depends on the time frame, copper node change over and HFC fill in ready time.
If a home has existing HFC a good prediction of getting NBN HFC could have been expected.
Using more nodes in areas with HFC saw that policy change a bit.
If the area has a node and HFC and some HFC design issues exist then it might soon be node time.
ADSL users connecting back to an exchange or RIM tophat could all be on the node as a fill in network around the HFC around the same time. The streets and suburb could then all be considered fully connected to some new type network before 2020.
Will the exchange or RIM work better per ADSL with some HFC users removed before its all node time or HFC?
Lets hope the node is ready in that area on time :)
Having to fully support adsl, node copper and HFC for many months or longer in the same area for new homes would be an interesting design policy given the 2020 date.
Having to fully support adsl, node copper and HFC for weeks, months or longer in the same area will be for new homes would be an interesting design policy given the 2020 date.
Not to forget, potentially having to also support HFCttVDSL (HFC infill), FTTP (Greenfields MDU) and FTTB (large MDU) in the same area.
NBN/MTM should be more like Apple (KISS, well designed, quality) and less like Samsung.
MTM doing a reverse Samsung Galaxy Note 7.
(Fire sale) versus (sale then fire).
Not sure how a product recall is going to work for some of the MTM technologies.
Maybe more "I don't recall" in the public dock, than admitting they failed.
MTM doing a reverse Samsung Galaxy Note 7.
(Fire sale) versus (sale then fire).
ROFL :D
[Was this zinger ghost written by Bill Shorten this time? :P]
It depends on the time frame, copper node change over and HFC fill in ready time.
If a home has existing HFC a good prediction of getting NBN HFC could have been expected.
Using more nodes in areas with HFC saw that policy change a bit.
The Telstra HFC NBN have taken over runs behind my house but not in front so I'm going to be in-fill. NBN are going live with the taken over HFC from Nov through to Dec depending on which part of my suburb. No work has been done outside of the HFC migration hence why I'm wondering whether I'll see any improvement while being stuck on copper as houses around me move over to HFC.
[Was this zinger ghost written by Bill Shorten this time? :P]
The MTM is even more like Samsung and less like Apple/Android in that ...
Mobile Hardware Device OS patches and upgrades are usually frequent and free to all Apple Models from the last approx. 4 years (at least). Whereas for Samsung (Android) Devices (with the exception of pure Google Devices (i.e Nexus)), the patches and upgrades can take a very long time to get to your device, via your mobile carrier or hardware manufacturer, if you are lucky to get them at all on your older model, or do not want to get them via other means that might break your warranty and risk bricking your device in the process.
(Ghost written by Steve Jobs with some assistance from Kevin007)
007 cos he's secretly zeroing in on MT(M)ttUNUbastard! for payback time.
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas
Are you sure? The brown areas of this map indicate Optus only cable areas that look to be on track for service later this year.
Just checked the nbn rollout map and these areas (Optus only HFC) are no longer listed as "under construction." I would speculate they are now for FTTN at some future date and the rollout in Optus only areas looks doomed. Has anybody else's HFC rollout rolled back from "construction started" to "not yet."
Just checked the nbn rollout map and these areas (Optus only HFC) are no longer listed as "under construction." I would speculate they are now for FTTN at some future date and the rollout in Optus only areas looks doomed.
Looks like yob could still be in for a nasty surprise with the Coburg North and Pascoe Vale NBN shade of MTM mix.
With Construction to start on loads of Optus only areas in H2 2016 according to the last publicly released NBNCo schedule documents, and no word or signs of design or construction commencing for these Optus only HFC areas, like mine, it's hardly surprising that many people are concerned that their existing Optus HFC might get abandoned and replaced with FTTN or worse if they are a loser in any FTTN lottery.
What we don't definitely yet know, is if NBNCo have switched from the originally planned HFC to FTTN.
I can't say for sure, but I'd be very surprised if it's not HFC.
Let's see if there is any corresponding update on the NBNCo construction plan for these NBN HFC areas gone awol http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn
Nope! The bulk of Coburg North and Pascoe Vale is still listed for H2 2016 construction start. Which leaves some hope that they might still get NBN HFC as opposed to NBN FTTN.
Let's see if there is any corresponding update on the NBNCo construction plan for these NBN HFC areas gone awol http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn
Nope! The bulk of Coburg North and Pascoe Vale is still listed for H2 2016 construction start. Which leaves some hope that they might still get NBN HFC as opposed to NBN FTTN.
That document is nearly a year old. It won't show any change that has been made to the technology type or rollout schedule.
That document is nearly a year old. It won't show any change that has been made to the technology type.
Go have another look at http://www.nbnco.com.au/learn
There is the year old document linked at the top and then underneath (on the desktop version of the site only)
a table of the next 2 years which there has already seen some inconclusive debate on whirlpool as to whether the table (not the file) is being updated on a regular basis.
I'll go do a comparison of the downloadable file to the table, and see if I can find any differences that indicate that the table is more up to date
Edit. The 2 sets of info look exactly the same, which means that both are 12 months out of date.
Peak hour on the shiny new NBN HFC in Redcliffe is not going so well for this poster.
whrl.pl/ReIo1r
Connected with Exetel on their 100/40 plan. Can't even watch a 1080p youtube video during peak hours! Fine in off peak, but absolutly useless after 6 or 7 pm until late night.
Imagine the stink that will be kicked up if this is replicated from existing HFC customers who can watch 1080p youtube videos AOK during peak hours under their Optus/Telstra HFC now, and then after moving to NBN HFC and staying with the same RSP, they find that they can't successfully stream 1080p youtube video during every day peak hours even if they are on one of the higher or highest speed tiers.
I daresay that some NBNCo execs and Ministers will be losing a bit of sleep over this in the next 12 months, as more HFC areas go RFS.
I daresay that some NBNCo execs and Ministers will be losing a bit of sleep over this in the next 12 months,
The one you quoted was someone who changed to a different RSP though, Exetel rather than Telstra or Optus.
Either:
- It's a CVC issue, 100% RSP fault;
- It's an NBN "backhaul" issue, 100% NBN fault;
- It's a bit of both?
I can imagine the default defense will be an offense to say that the RSPs are at fault for not purchasing enough CVC? :)
I can imagine the default defense will be an offense to say that the RSPs are at fault for not purchasing enough CVC? :)
NBNCo should be working together with the RSP's to ensure that they purchase enough CVC otherwise it will reflect poorly on both the Federal Government, NBNCo and the RSP.
In addition, The ACCC should be heavily penalising RSP's who do not purchase enough CVC.
- It's a CVC issue, 100% RSP fault;
- It's an NBN "backhaul" issue, 100% NBN fault;
- It's a bit of both?
Yes, there needs to be more data points.
We know that budget telco's such as Exetel will likely scrimp on CVC, however the CVC problem isn't solely a HFC one. We need to see what the service is like for "premium" ISP's such as Telstra and Optus.
Looks like yob could still be in for a nasty surprise with the Coburg North and Pascoe Vale NBN shade of MTM mix
On the evidence so far, it's not looking good!
I was so looking forward to ditching our ye olde direct buried copper line too...
The last time I checked, they were getting about 47/19 during offpeak hours, and 20/5 during peak hours.
Ouch! As expected the compromised upstream gets affected real quick too now (I don't think I have seen this for FTTN or FTTP, there it is only downstream that degrades during peak).
As feared NBN HFC is proving to be worse than FTTN during peak.
As feared NBN HFC is proving to be worse than FTTN during peak.
You mean, as predicted by anyone capable of simple math calculations!
You mean, as predicted by anyone capable of simple math calculations!
And Ive posted multiple times to try and make it as simple as possible, however the MTM-zealots kept trying to assure us that it would be fine.
Its so fine, that in many cases, NBN is now refusing to do it!
You mean, as predicted by anyone capable of simple math calculations!
Wait, why? :)
Because of CVC underprovision? Or because of NBN insufficient infrastructure? Or simply because you add every internet user in an area to HFC (instead of just the odd user here and there) and it doesn't work so good anymore?
Because of CVC underprovision? Or because of NBN insufficient infrastructure? Or simply because you add every internet user in an area to HFC (instead of just the odd user here and there) and it doesn't work so good anymore?
All of the above.
NBNCo should be working together with the RSP's to ensure that they purchase enough CVC
There's no such thing as 'enough CVC'. NBN is designed so that RSPs get to decide how much CVC to sell their end users and how much to charge them. NBN 'supports' premium products with high CVC providioning as well as budget offerings with high CVC contention for people who only care about price.
So NBN doesn't 'work with' ISPs to dictate their business models. You need to buy from an ISP whose business model suits your needs best.
In addition, The ACCC should be heavily penalising RSP's who do not purchase enough CVC.
Yet again this 'enough CVC' concept. Which doesn't exist.
If 'enough CVC' means people always get maximum speeds then product prices need to increase tenfold. Are you and everybody else willing to pay business grade prices for your residential services? Because that seems to be the path you want the ACCC to take, mandating a product that nobody will buy.
So instead the ACCC are looking at better ways to force ISPs to disclose their minimum speeds or contention ratios, but putting it back on the end user to purchase a product that meets their needs, but making the choices and tradeoffs they make more apparent to them.
NBNCo should be working together with the RSP's to ensure that they purchase enough CVC
NBN have done exactly the opposite. They're 'double dipping' on the cost of a wholesale customer for all RSPs. They're charging an AVC price for a subscriber based on the bandwidth that's provisioned (more for a 100mbit/s subscriber than for a 25mbit/s subscriber), and then charging for the CVC capacity to accommodate the subscribers.
The business model here should be a one-off price per AVC, and automatic CVC capacity to accommodate the provisioned customer. Of course there's no hidden costs then, and we all know how businesses like hidden costs.
I know that RSPS can order a certain amount of CVC, but how can they handle the case of more CVC capacity required at peak times compared to off peak times?
As feared NBN HFC is proving to be worse than FTTN during peak.
Precisely why I've previously stated I'd rather be in line for FTTN than NBN HFC. At the very least with FTTN you know what speed your physical connection is capable of, and therefore any speed issues outside of what your connection can physically handle, could generally be blamed at the RSP level.
With HFC, you're completely in the dark as to whether you should be blaming NBN for having too many premises connected to a node, or whether it's an RSP CVC issue. In such a case you've got exactly two chances at getting the issue resolved � Buckley's and none.
but how can they handle the case of more CVC capacity required at peak times compared to off peak times?
They don't. You don't vary CVC capacity dynamically... you pay NBN for x amount, until x amount isn't enough... and increase it to x+y amount. Then you increase to x+y+z when you see unreasonable congestion.
It's likely that to increase the bandwidth for a CSA/CVC it might take a few days/a week (or more) so your capacity planning people will apply for the budget from the account types, fill out all the internal paperwork before getting approval, then place the order with NBN. And NBN will increase the bandwidth whenever they see fit... once the commitment to the extra $ is made.
As far as 'peak' and 'off-peak' goes... it is exactly what it says. You plan for no congestion in off-peak times, but get as close to full capacity as you can. Then in peak times you congest the links... because it's peak times. No-one pays enough for a residential internet service to get a 1:1 contention ratio.
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